$100 Budget Decks | Commander Clash S12 E17
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Osgir, the Reconstructor vs. Omnath, Locus of Creation vs. Lonis, Cryptozoologist vs. Evelyn, the Covetous
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Richard: I only run two interaction spells.
also Richard: There's no interaction on a budget.
When you only play two, you need that premium shit lol
Meanwhile while everyone was complaining about their mana bases Tomer drops 4 color Omnath on turn 4 with no issues.
I will be honest, i am with Tomer here.Budget decks aren't all that complicate and when Tomer was shaking his head i really felt it.
Yeah. Like lands frankly are too expensive. They're right. But unless your in a crazy competitive circle, you're wine with a budget mana base. And Richard was just being a prick about the snarls. I have absolutely bought a bunch of snarls. They're significantly better than something like a guildgate and I'd rather have a good land for 10 different decks rather than buy 1 shock for 1 deck.
@@ryansprenkle6356 Tomer is really the only one of them that plays paper a significant amount which I think leads to a lot of Richard's bizarre takes.
I think people need to remember that basic lands are good. In a 2 color deck there is no reason to need 20 non basics and if u put all of those in your deck will be slow due to all the tap lands. Embrace the basics they are better than bad non-basics.
True enough.
Also in non-budget 2 color decks, fetches in non-landfall strategies are usually a waste. There are other elements of fetches that can be leveraged, but unless you can, there are a dozen other really good dual lands that mostly don’t enter tapped and are much cheaper. Just not having to shuffle as much is reason enough to avoid fetches in 2C decks.
Absolutely true. Most 2 color decks I've built (and I have 6) run less than 10 non basic colored lands (utility lands are generally excluded from this consideration as they're not included for their mana production) and I pretty much NEVER run into Mana issues.
"Phil's gonna spend his turn cracking clues for card draw spells" is one of the weirdest reads to make from that board 😂 like what
Again on budget removal as well as budget land base i agree with tomer.
Top tier removal sub $5:
Path, swords, beast within, natures claim, chaos warp, offer you cant refuse, wash away, negate/counterspell, dismember, infernal grasp, bedevil, ravenform, resculpt, rapid hybridization, misdirection, tales end, etc…..there’s a lot. Even the new card from clb, wild magic surge is crazy good for any deck in red.
Commenting just to save this list. Quite handy. Thanks.
Normally I simp for richard’s spicy takes on commander but his budget removal opinions this episode were so outstandingly absurd even I can’t back it
Richard basically has my opposite opinions on everything in Magic. But I just believe what Command Zone tells me, so IDK he might be right.
I definitely agreed with Richard on this one. Budget and good are not the same. They were talking about good counter spells at one point that are budget and Tomer said there's only 2 that aren't budget force of will and fierce guardianship. That people should play spell pierce was his arguement.
Pact of negation, mana drain, force of negation, swan song are a few more non budget options but I do concede counterspell gets the job done as a budget option.
@@maximus574there's plenty of cedh viable interaction that's budget, free interaction is needed when you're trying to stop wincons that are coming down later or aren't on the same level as thoracle. "Good" is relative
Here's an idea, everyone picks a commander, and everyone else picks two cards that the player cannot run excluding basics. Like Richard picks some white weenie commander, so Phil says he can't play Dowsing Dagger and Farewell, Seth picks a couple cards, and Tomer picks a couple cards, and we see what happens when you guys can't play your staples.
Actually this sounds sick. It's like a 4 way pick/ban system to shake up the meta.
But Richard already doesn't play Farewell lmao
Lol Richard doesn't play interaction
Gotta pick Secret Rendezvous.
@@bludude90210 you just nerfed Richard's entire playstyle
Honestly in a two color deck you could run 35 basics and a Command Tower and you'd be fine. These guys are trippin' on what you need for a mana base, especially in an all-budget pod.
You'll get stomped hard by a Green player though, their budget ramp is so much better than a manalith, and 2 mana rocks tend not to be especially cheap.
@@mightyone3737 everyone gets stomped by green ramp though. As this video proves. Budget or no.
@@ChadJShonk Not me. I roflstomp the green players with my thassas oracle + demonic consultation/tainted pact or underworld breach + brain freeze + LED combos on turn 2 or 3.
@@ChadJShonk Not only are you smugly bragging on a RUclips comment, you didn't even understand the comment you were replying to. *slow clap* Incredible.
@@lordofgarbageprogenitoroft4147 good job, you're able to win using the meta.
Man, I love that these guys are talking about the real life problem of the expensive lands and other staples. Sure, your own stuff is valuable if you decide to sell out of the game, but wouldn't it be better if you never sold out of the game and anyone could play because there aren't large barriers to entry?
agreed, but if everything was so cheap it would not have any value in a sense
I do think the game should be more accessible overall. But part of the appeal of the game is monitoring the market and grabbing a sweet card for a solid price that appreciates in value as time goes on
@@xsuperbmentality For me the value is derived from playing the game with people not how much my cardboard costs
@@Lucarioguild7 same, but there are tons of people who buy cards strictly for collecting.
I’ll say the same thing I say any time this discussion comes up. People keep saying the barrier to entry is too high. Seriously, you can sit down with a $35 precon and compete in casual commander. Facts! Show me another hobby where that’s possible. Table top Warcraft (or whatever it is with the miniature figures), no chance. Video gaming with $300-$600 consoles, please… Or my other hobby R/C racing, where my radio alone cost more than serveral of my Commander decks combined. So honestly, I think MTG is pretty good cost wise. And like any hobby, it cost to participate. That’s a fact of life. And if you got a play group of like minded people, you all can just go straight proxies. Not my favorite thing, but its an option.
@Tomer on your rant on Lonis being farwelled. As a Lonis player, i always spend all game saying "hey man its just clues", no one believes me anymore after dunking with clue payoffs like rampage of the clans or rise and shine
Curses are the perfect example of why to play spot removal. They are problematic permanents that your opponents aren't going to remove for you.
Yes and no
Obviously that's true but generally there are only two or three curses that actually get played in commander
@@GreenLightningHood You don't play spot removal just for curses, you play them for the many things that hurt mainly you, whether it's the Yasharn that shut down Richards entire deck, a giant creature going your way or w/e. Richard keeps saying "well I'm dead" when he sees anything he has to interact with.
@@Spaced92 Yeah that's not at all what I said. I said obviously you should run spot removal but that curses weren't relevant enough to argue they are the reason you should run spot removal. It blows my mind how salty all of you are about Richard's opinion on spot removal. It's literally just about stroking your egos as far as I can tell. You want to tell him he's wrong because you know so much more about magic than he does and you're so good at the game, but you can't actually debate him. So you take to the comments section to look for someone that agrees with him or someone you'd like to think agrees with him to show off to. It's kind of sad. But if that's what you want then Swords is garbage, dowsing dagger is the best card in the format, monowhite never needed card draw, and I would destroy you with my skeleton birds deck.
The idea that answers are more expensive than threats just doesn't hold any water. Look at pauper; some of the best answers in the game's history are commons. Counterspell, Negate, Nature's Claim and Swords to Plowshares were all commons. Go up to uncommon and you have access to a ton of great removal. Beast Within variants, Vandalblast, Return to Dust, Infernal Grasp, Path to Exile, Snuff Out, and even more counter magic. Heck, Wizards just printed a 1-mana Negate at uncommon.
Like, c'mon lol. Answers are cheap and plentiful.
The issue here is that in pauper you only have one opponent. The crew bitch all the time about how playing interaction that requires you to leave up any amount of mana is untenable because you fall behind 3 other players.
@@Dementia55372 It's honestly absurd. Like, yeah, you *technically* fall behind your other two opponents in cards, but EDH is a game of keeping everyone else in check. Not playing spot removal just means you fall way behind the opponent who is playing something that demands spot removal. Sure, you're not down a card compared to opponents #2 and #3, but now you're left at the mercy of that same #2 and #3 hoping *they* have removal.
And god forbid they've got the same philosophy as you, or else you're just four ships passing each other in the night, all frantically trying to either win the game or dig for mass removal.
@@swirlingtoilets I agree with you that a game of magic should be interactive and not everyone goldfishing and trying to do the most broken thing they can to get ahead but that's not how the format incentivizes people to play, not to mention the "social" aspect of it where people complain if you even look at their cards sideways.
People (myself included) need to learn that not EVERYTHING needs to be interacted with. It's a mantra I have to repeat to myself every game: only mess with stuff that WILL kill, not stuff that is just scary because people are ahead.
@@maxpotter9363 that's definitely been my biggest takeaway from watching this channel. Richard is the king of this, often sitting with an answer in his hand asking someone else to remove something. But what I've come to realize is that he doesn't want something removed, what he really wants is for someone else to spend their resources dealing with it.
Wow, that was brutal, the one time Phil got to do his thing...
Just to make it clear, this week's Clash perfectly illustrates people's problem with green in EDH. These budget decks (which have other colors but are obviously base green) run very similarly to high power decks because green has way, way too much breadth and depth at all CMCs and rarities. It needs reined in with hate cards, punisher cards, etc. Something that the other colors can use, that *are not rare*. Stax and land destruction should be encouraged to help level the playing field and players just need to learn it's part of the game.
You're 100% right but good luck getting players and WotC to see it that way. At this point they're basically turning every color into Green Lite™ to balance commander instead of using those colors own mechanics to balance the game.
This is why I'm still for banning/nerfing all tutors. Good luck going nuts like that when your Cultivate only searches the top 7.
Hey, blue players who need to hate green: Hibernation, Submerge, Dream Tides.
@@shayneweyker yeah but then you get accused of meta gaming and people hate them even more
The gods of MTGO smiting Phil for getting too much value is my favorite event this season. I wanted to see the outcome, but it was hilarious to watch.
Edit: sorry, second favorite event after Richard's Rite of Replication > Gamble punt in the charity stream.
Phil's version of the table "playing for second"!
I appreciate Tomer is playing original Zendikar full art basics in his "zendikar themed" deck
As far as I am concerned, Armageddon away, Richard. It’s really dumb that you can mess with all other resources/zones but lands are untouchable.
I think if you have a player like Phil who invariably plays the same deck which ramps endlessly, then mass land destruction is not only acceptable but actually desirable, it would improve the quality of games.
The problem with Armageddon effects is they don't just punish land ramp, but also decks just playing fairly, whilst also potentially Grinding games to a boring halt.
What we need is Balance effects - including actual Balance, which should be let off the ban list. That, plus effects like Spiteful Repossession and Treacherous Terrain could help balance out the absurdity of Green's ramp.
We need a land only balance effect
Cant remember who but a member of the commander rules person said they'd sooner unban the moxen than balance
For all the clue fans out there, I recently put Tezzeret, Betrayer of Flesh in my Eloise Artocrats deck and he synergies so well with clues. Pop a clue for free on each turn is pretty sweet.
Oh that's a nice one with clues, I'll test i out if I can get my hands on a copy
@Tomer - I'm one of the people who did not like Phil choosing not to cast Blasphemous Act and playing for the second game a few weeks ago. But I do think that it was a slightly different decision than the hypothetical Farewell issue this game. The main difference is that Phil could have cast BA on like turn 3, when no one else was set up to win or redeploy in a single turn, and he would have potentially had time to draw out of it - especially if the two people he saved worked with him. In this game, it was turn 6 and you and Phil would still have been sitting on 15+ mana and 6-13 cards each. I think with two people who are going to reassemble almost immediately, the person "sacrificing" themselves has to consider their own future board more.
Another way of putting it: Phil's plan was just to hope elves decided not to kill him, or killed everyone quickly (or that he went runner runner lands into a different wrath). Seth's hypothetical plan here would have been how to best police the board for multiple turns to attempt to stop multiple people from killing him/the table. I think that makes it a harder decision, without as clear an answer.
"Seth is just losing a sol ring" that's so easy to say when you have 20 lands and Seth has 3 lol
I always ask myself "if a card said pay 13 clues get a sol ring would I put it into my deck?" And when I answer no of course not, then it gets a lot easier to realize that sol ring may not be as good as the clues.
@@zackestin1368 I'd play that card...
@@zackestin1368 it’s not about what is better. It’s about what is best for Seth. Phil having all the clues is bad, but Seth not having Sol ring leaves him at 3 mana. What does Seth care if Phil or Tomer win? He’s there to maximize his chances of winning, not pull Phil down. His chances of winning requires having mana.
And farewelling completely destroys Seth and Richard- leaving Tomer and Phil close to parity. If I’m Seth and Richard, I’d do anything to increase my chances because I’m already losing and my best chance is to have to two goliaths slug it out. Seth I would have argued the same way and not listened to Tomer’s “it’s objectively correct” nonsense.
@@timbombadil4046 him winning means he has to pull down Phil. His Sol Ring is irrelevant. It's a bad take.
I agree with phil, lands that just produce mana or fix your mana base shouldn't be printed at a higher rarity than uncommon that just dumb, my deck's mana base shouldn't cost more than the rest of the deck just to be consistent, also it just make inherently green better in budget.
It's easier to play a budget 5c mana base than a 2c one, just because you get so many options. For 2c you don't have more than four decent lands to choose from.
5c has access to green, that's all that really matters. The only other really threatening budget decks I can think of are cheap creature/spell type stuff.
Love the Smash Bros style intro!
Budget decks are so much fun. Limitations encourage creativity and they make things interesting with cards you don't often see.
Dear lord Tomer is grating.
He can be.
The Newblood card did more than turns the creature into a vampire, it also replaces all instances of the previous creature type on the card with vampire on the text of the card.
Used it on my own Homing Sliver in a madness vampire deck to cycle-cast vampires with the dude who gives all vamps madness. It. Was. Glorious.
On the Farewell debacle:
Seth is right. He's so far behind on mana and is effectively set further behind by losing Sol Ring than Phil would be by losing Clues. Forcing Phil to invest a whole turn and a ton of Mana to Draw is effectively giving every other player an extra turn in terms of action economy, especially in a budget game.
Sorry Tomer. Seth is right.
I respectfully disagree, were I in Seth's place I would absolutely wipe everything with fairwell. When the discussion was had, Phil was sitting with six cards in hand. In that scenario, I would much rather force him to use his turn spending mana casting cards from his hands rather than having sox cards in hand IN ADDITION to all the stuff he had on the battlefield. I definitely respect and can see why you (and Seth) argue the way you do though :)
I don't really agree, while it's annoying for Seth in that position it's a clear win for Phil and his entire deck synergises with those clues, they aren't just a million clues, it's a straight up win state for his deck. What does a sol ring actually drive you towards? But it's more of a debate than Phils situation.
@@YaoBao1 He also had a fresh 7 in the graveyard. The clues weren't that valuable compared to losing 2 mana in Seth's position.
@@RyanEglitis I would agree with you if his only use of the clues was to draw cards. However, having a clue deck myself, I am sure Phil himself wouldn't want to use his clues by just cracking them and drawing cards. I realise this was a budget episode, but artifact tokens are very powerful even with those restrictions! But I see where you are coming from :)
I am sorry, but there is only one correct answer. And in that case Tomer is right and Seth is wrong.
Seth is correct in his assessment of casting Farewell. Putting yourself behind in mana in a game that is this far out of reach is just a deathsentence. The clues don't push Phil that much farther ahead than he already is at 17 mana with multiple card draw sources and replaying his commander at 4 mana.
From Tomer's perspective, keeping the clues around loses parity to Phil, so he wants them gone. He's just using the argument of sacrificing 2 (opponent's) sol rings is worth taking out 12 (opponent) clues so he has a better chance against Phil.
Tomer knows about Tragedy of the Commons (and game theory more generally) as it relates to Commander 😍😍😍
I miss when the cast played janky commanders
Phil, play your value simic!! I am glad you get to play what you love! Sad you didn't get to finish the game.
90% of actual EDH players don't run free interaction. Cause the cards cost a billion. Games go on completely fine without them. If someone is Thoracle'ing on a casual table, that's a whole different problem than "budget".
This, and if I ever get super lucky and pull one I turn around and sell it because it's that one card or dozens of other cards that I want for various decks.
I don't know about this new "Target player loses their internet connection" card.
Seems a bit overpowered to me.
I think Sol Ring vs Clues is the epitome of 'Lets go on the mill em out plan.' Its one part a hilarious discussion and one part a deranged position on Seth's part lmao
"I'd rather get just spend his turn cracking clues"
My brother in Christ, you are the biggest proponent of drawing cards above all else and your winning strategy revolves around allowing Phil to draw 10 additional cards
In all fairness Seth is looking for a longshot. If he looks at it as what needs to happen to win, Phil whiffing on the draw or further disruption by another player all while he keeps the Sol Ring very easily could be the best chance he has to win.
Without it he has that much further in terms of board development to go before he even has a chance of chaining together a winning play.
Phil has easy access to 13 cards either way. They need as much mana against what he's assembling as they can get.
I agree with tomer on budget land base 100%. Most my decks are $100 max or sometimes $200 and even in 2 or 3 colors at budget, theres indestructible tap lands, pain lands, command tower, innistrad duals from vow and hunt, reveal lands, signet lands, bounce lands, the thriving cycle, tainted cycle, scry lands, lands like nimbus maze, snow duals, lands that untap with 2 basics on the field and list goes on for other good options $5 and less. Fetches are unnecessary outside 4 or 5 colors and cedh and maybe instead of net decking and using “good stuff cards”, learn to deck build and use the plentiful cards in the 12,000 plus card pool mtg has.
Answering Phil's clues was definitely worth the one sol ring. I thought Seth was just trying to get Tomer going at first then when I realized he was serious I was mind blown.
It’s kinda concerning that I find it so weird that Phil’s voice isn’t coming from a crazy chef
So the division between budget lands and expensive ones splits between MTGO and paper rather hard. Online, you can pull double-duty with the things in multiple decks and so the value proposition of getting a fetch over a snarl is absurdly high. But let's say I want to make 10 decks - or 20, or 30, or so-on in paper. Even if we lowball it with a $20 fetch, we're comparing $200-600 to maybe around $5-15. The amount of consistency that a fetch gives you isn't nothing, but if you're playing budget decks against budget decks, it rarely matters (and the old tradeoff returns of more colors = less consistency for access to more power).
And so if you like putting together a lot of jank and playing a lot of different strategies, taking apart decks and building new ones, trying out ideas with cards that are extremely cheap just because they aren't in the top 5% of power-level, you pretty quickly get used to buying up the duals that get reprinted in commander decks while they're on the cheap. Frankly, the obsession with having perfect mana all of the time is one of many different things that have taken EDH away from "battlecruiser with cool interactions, politcking with friends, and cards that do goofy things that couldn't see play in any other format" and more towards "copy a list verbatim from EDHrec, play solitaire, and hope you combo off first."
but you can proxy in paper. legit no one will complain if you say its in another deck.
@@mark1A100 Tends to be if you proxy, people just proxy stuff on the level of cradle. Or you could just proxy every last fetch, shock, and triome. And you can quickly make a $5000 deck into a $.50 one with bulk chaff and a sharpie. The gameplay's the same, and you're not playing in a tournament, so it doesn't matter.
@@bartoffer If you really want to keep the power level low, it's easy enough to say "you can only proxy cards that you actually own" - that way you don't have to spend that $20 times however many decks want that fetchland, but you still have some degree of restriction. I have a friend who sticks hard to that rule - granted, his collection is large and he does have some expensive cards that he was gifted years ago, but he's still got fairly good decks that can keep up with the casual end of no-budget proxying without having loads of staples. Even my own unconstrained proxying still has some self-imposed limits - I'm not gonna put three dual lands in Riku of Two Reflections because I'd like to eventually own that deck for real and that's a $1500+ barrier for a very minor benefit, but three shocks and three fetches is achievable over time.
I just try to keep decks under 200 unless I own those expensive pieces and then I'm fine proxying a bunch, especially as I'm just getting back into the game and working through my backlog of ideas
You forgot about the budget free/1cc counterspells Abjure, Foil, Thwart. Also the free black dark banishing.
Cards like those make me more convinced that negate is a counter spell one should never run.
i like to play the indestructible mh2 lands in obuun. when you're making it a huge trampler, it coming in tapped is just summoning sickness. landfall decks can have a hugely budget mana base, because you're doing three or four things off that tap land. outside of landfall, any land that comes in tapped is nice, even snarls. messed up that lands are that much, but i get it.
Landfall decks also have the benefit of being able to play tons of basics, since most of the efficient ways to put multiple lands into play in one turn fetch basics out of your deck.
It's crazy to me that every time we have a "___ week", especially if it's a budget week, that someone (in this case Tomer) shows up with a commander that is just so obviously cracked in comparison to the rest of the field. I feel like if the crew agreed upon things beforehand fewer games would just be one person stomping all 3 other players.
Idk I feel like Phil's deck was also insane, him and Tomer running green kinds shows the difference. I feel like all decks have high power crazy value bombs to play, but the level of ramp done by green is so much higher on a budget
I think Tomer came this season with the idea of "I'm not going to lose first every game this time", but he clearly powered his decks too much. He's been the archenemy nearly every episode this season, and the commander clash balance has broken a bit
Omg poor Phil. I would’ve conceded out of respect.
Because of the budget conversation: I ask myselft the whole time, why Wizards reprinted Etali and at some Point also Zetalpa like hell, but cant reprint the Battlebond and Commander Legends lands and the "if you control a commander, its for free" Cycle more often in the Precons.
1:01:47 Richard: "You're keeping me with you. We're crabs pulling each other back into the pot."
Me: ~not expecting a lesson in sociology along with a Magic game~
Aww.. i like junkwinder so much, i made a junkwinder deck on arena and it was surprisingly effective. Plus it feels very fair, you're killing people with combat damage and tapping them down through synergy pieces. Rampage of the clans is also hilarious in the deck.
I love Nimbus Maze in my Azorius Decks. I bought a few of them when it was like 25 cents. I like the "tainted" lands if it is a black heavy deck.
I feel the time is now for an All-land set,just all the staple duals and search lands,shocks and fetches and utility (eg.Cavern of Souls) at the high end,creature lands and wasteland if you want to make it draftable
Lol I feel like we needs stats on how many times Seth says, "it's spoiler season." Lately it's always Spoiler season, when a new set drops you barely have time open a pack before spoilers start again.
So i gotta say normally I agree with tomer! BUUUT one of seths opponents is a Lands matter deck. farewell would slow the clue deck down sure, but also be crippling seth and richard, who are already behind. While king making the land deck that isnt affected by it at all. So I think Seth had the right idea this game.
I will not back Tomer up on that. Phil has 6 in hand, and another 7 in the graveyard with Memory. The clues don't matter against losing 2 mana and possibly being able to double spell with the sol ring.
Normalize land destruction! Every strategy needs to have counterplay. What can counter someone putting 27 lands on the battlefield other than MLD? You can't just "counter their big spell" cause that mana is still gonna be there for the next huge spell the next turn. Run Armageddon.
I personally wanna see more cards like "Each player chooses five lands they control and sacrifice the rest."
I agree that Armageddon is underplayed as a tool for White and Boros decks, but Geddon is really a win con, not a way to keep green in check. To do that, you need an effect that gets everyone down to the same number of lands; enough to cast some stuff, but also a low enough number that you're actually punishing the green deck.
Another way to phrase it would be a creature that ETBs with "Each player who controls the most lands sacrifices two lands" on, like, a 5-mana body. Make it nonlegendary and either just white or red to maximize the number of decks that can run it.
I'm relatively certain that token copies of Dowsing Dagger could actually flip because they're just on the back side of the card. Token copies of the flipwalkers out of Magic Origins would disappear as soon as they hit the exile, but the Dagger doesn't flicker and enter transformed, it just flips.
Man Tomer has never been more right than during the Farewell discussion. 1 Sol Ring vs 13 clues in an affinity deck is just not close.
1:14:00 Just wanted to shout out that *very* nicely synched link pop-up! Satisfying.
I rarely agree with Tomer, but he’s so right here. As a big fan of Artisan Commander, I feel like the mana bases are pretty solid regardless of budget. Yes, rare lands are better and yes it sucks they are expensive, but guild gates are not so terrible. If being off curve on a turn to play mana fixing was so terrible, then Stone Rain would be commander playable.
I'm a 100% magic newb, but I will say as someone who lives on a budget build, it's frustrating when my opponents have double to tripple the mana by turn 4 and I'm hoping for a fetch :D
Wait a fetch doesnt give you more mana?
@@mark1A100 it depends. Cheap fetch gives you a mana that comes in tapped.
Speaking on Cathars Crusade, I had a Kyler deck with Cathars crusade and I had to take it apart from all the tracking
I think this has changed in recent years, but in my experience from when I was playing a bunch of budget combo decks in highschool (KTK era) while the combos might be relatively budget friendly a lot of the ways to make sure you pull them off consistently weren't. No idea if that's still the case but I get the feeling not.
Consult Thoracle:
Thassas Oracle - 10$
Demonic Consultation - 20$
LED + Breach Freeze:
Underworld Breach - 10$
Brain Freeze - 5$
Lions Eye Diamond - 700$
Wow, it feels like there's a lot to talk about here, and like usual I agree a lot with Tomer. I won't get into the price of lands here as it's already been talked about.
Budget Lands - So many more than Tomer Listed, Enemy Fetches, Signet Lands, BFZ if you control 2 or more basics lands, Filter lands are pretty cheap right now, Scry Lands, Reveal Lands, Bicycle Lands, The snow land common cycle from Kaldheim that can be fetched by things like Farseek. There are others too. But you can build a decent untapped manabase, and if you don't mind some ETB tapped lands, you can also have good fixing.
Interaction - In my experience most interaction is cheap, once you get past the top 20 or so staples everyone enjoys. Single Target removal is often great for disrupting combos, so I also disagree that the answers for combos don't exist. Nature's Claim, Lightning bolt, between these 2 a lot of what you care about when it comes to combo decks (especially other budget combo decks) can be answered. I'm a massive fan of Rending Volley. As a start, for 1 mana, uncounterable, it kills every single commander at this table. Things like slaughter pact and chaos warp are still budget, and do a search for common and uncommon removal under $2, you will find a ton more. Wrath effects are harder to come by, you mostly have to end up playing things like Ondu Inversion and Day of Judgement, or go into higher-cost wraths like Crux of Fate.
Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Fierce Guardianship etc... - I wanted to give free interaction and counterspells their own category. Spells like these tend to benefit combo decks more than those who want to stop them. It allows a combo deck to either build towards its combo faster or combo off, using all of its mana while having a bunch of free backup interaction. If you remove these spells entirely then when the combo decks go off, they need to think about their mana more, and if they try to go off earlier they can often be punished by other decks keeping up one or 2 pieces of cheap interaction like Spell Pierce, or Negate or whatever other removal spell. It's a lot harder for the deck combing off to fight against the other 3 decks at the table.
Anyways, that's my rant, thank you for coming to my TED talk :P
Oh boy, the farewell discussion was ... interesting. I would agree with Richard that the situation is not clear-cut, but it is beyond me how you can argue that 13 clue tokens in a fricking clue deck are not threatening.
I'm with Seth on this one.
If I'm a non-green deck with 3 lands and a Sol Ring against two green decks with 15+ lands, and the only way to prolong the game is to cast someone else's Farewell, I'm 100% keeping my Sol Ring. In both plays the green decks are so far ahead on mana that resetting the board is close enough to king-making that I might as well allow myself to keep playing by keeping my own rock.
I kind of dislike the games where some players run away with it very early. Not a fan of Omnath :(
I don't think I've seen a game where people enjoyed versing the latest omnath lol
I rule of thumb I have in commander is if someone's deck contains simic colors at least and everyone doesn't focus them they will probably win. It is just a broken color pairing that just gets harder to stop the more colors that get added. Green and blue need significant color pie changes to be back to balance cause how it is now they both do everything every other color can do besides direct damage is where they lack.
Snarls become better at budget levels because you're running more basics. I still really like the Kaldheim snow duals and the scry lands as my go-to taplands, and the bounce lands are still very reliable. I think the guys takes were very extreme regarding mana bases.
100% this, but what do you expect from someone who doesn't play any basics at all? All fetches, shocks, utility lands and MDFCs which, if you have to play as a land, enters tapped. The number of times I've seen these guys play them as tap lands is painful. In my 5 color decks I still run 2-3 of every basic. In 2 color decks, how many lands are you even really missing out on on a budget? Assuming you aren't running off-color fetches.
i would love to see y’all start running armageddon, i think normalizing it would be healthy for the format
Just have a plan. If you Armageddon and just restart the game than no one is having any fun.
Lands that provide good fixing are rare, because that is a powerful effect, having color selection should have a drawback as it gives you more options for what you can play.
While that certainly makes sense as a justification for why they can't just keep dumping out new good dual lands, it doesn't explain why WOTC is so stingy with the ones that exist. The objectively horrible no upside taplands, at this point superseded by multiple different cycles (the lifegain lands from Khans block, the Guildgates, etc.), continue to see reprints in precons while good stuff like Shocklands and even Battlebond lands (tailor-made to be played in Commander and screaming to be in those precons) are dribbled out as rarely as possible. The only real obstacle to having good fixing is your wallet, which is the most artificial bullshit way to make playing multiple colors more challenging. WOTC like making good fixing expensive because they can use it to sell sets - there's no doubt more packs of Baldur's Gate will be sold because they put the Battlebond lands in that set and those suckers are currently worth like four to five times as much as a pack will be sold for, and let's not even think about the fetchlands. Even the painlands can run like $10 or more, and they're pretty low on the untapped lands totem pole. It does nothing but make the game less accessible - good mana improves every deck, so to be on even footing with everyone else you have to either play mono-color strategies (usually mono-red in formats outside Commander because no other mono-color deck is that good) or pay up.
2 years later the only deck above 100 dollars now is Tomer's - and that's mostly because Aesi went from 8-25 dollars in that time
Shoutout to Tomer, he is a fantastic host! Love the energy on the introduction!
1:24:15 Such a sad moment! I was really wanting to see that go off as well... 😔
There are quite a few really cheap great combo stoppers that don't cost much money or mana. Sudden shock is the first that comes to mind, deal 2 to any target with split second for 2 mana. Like there are a metric ton of combos that rely on a creature with 2 or less toughness that instantly collapse to this card. Delay is another wonderful card as it is a two mana counter that suspends something for a few turns which lets everyone prepare to deal with something or completely screws up a combo or key play due to timing.
I really reccommend just scrolling through two mana and under instants, and cards that can you cast for free cause there is a lot of really strong stuff people don't play just due to lack of looking or just not knowing certain cards exist.
This episode is hilarious. Is this the first time a player has ever crashed their PC on commander clash?
Phil i feel your pain. I'm also living in Germany and i also got connection problem from time to time :(
Richard feel free to run mass LD, there has to be an answer to this level of ramp
How does mass LD answer ramp?
As a budget player, you just can't be lazy about how you setup your mana base. You have to really count your pips, and adjust your basics accordingly. You have to make sure your mana rocks are either making the right colors, or if you aren't color intensive, you can focus on more of the colorless ones that are either cheap, or make a bunch of mana.
The other thing is that you have to really lean into one/two strategies. The best way to screw yourself is to make your deck go in a bunch of different directions.
I think that mostly basics is fine for a mana base 90% of the time unless youre playing above a certain level. Typically you dont need more than 2 of each pip or you have to balance it out with more of one color than another
Especially 3 or under colors
Every time the Clash Crew complains about budget mana bases bothers me so much. It’s so easy to make consistent mana bases on a budget. Any deck with 1-2 colors can run on exclusively basics with no issue in 95/100 games. Any 3-5 color deck with green could run on all basics with no issue in 95/100 games (yes, including five color). Any three color deck without green or Yore-Tiller are the only colors that have real mana base issues, but even they can run pain lands, signet lands, tri lands (not triomes, tri lands a la Sandsteppe Citadel), vivid lands, actual signets, Sol Ring, Arcane Signet. Budget mana bases are extremely doable, people complain about consistency, but fail to recognize that they’ve always been playing with way more consistency than is necessary. PLAY. MORE. BASICS!!!!!
The biggest difference in a 100$ budget on a deck and more for the budget is the land base from my experience.
Richard really out here complaining about not having ways to stop a combo and then not playing any removal.
Let's be honest Phil won this video with how he went out : P
Richard and Seth crab bucketing at the back
And this is why you shouldn't let Phil play Simic, or green for that matter, ever
Hope to see some suboptimal slow and spicy jank ( :
Richard is forgetting that foil, disrupting shoal, and abjure are pennies.
I don't often agree this wholeheartedly with Tomer, but he's absolutely correct with regard to Sol Ring. It's not close and as no-brainer as they come. You have less chance of winning letting him have 14 clues in exchange for a Sol Ring.
All those early game sol rings have a price, and it looks like MODO collected that price on Phil
I started playing the game with M15, and went to my first standard event when BFZ came out. Seeing the 4/5 colour piles people would run, fueled by the fetches and tango lands, I gave up on standard and just became a commander/limited player after that.
Foil and thwart are the budget force of will style free counterspells if anyone wanted to know
Tomer you're very wrong about Farewell. While it makes sense for YOU to exile all artifacts, that essentially cuts Seth out of the game because he would be stuck on three mana. For Seth, it really isn't a contest. He's definitely dead if he's stuck on three lands (and having already cast his commander once), he's maybe not dead if Phil gets to keep his clues. You're outta line on this one!
I think commit to memory is under rated it is spot removal for anything and a counter spell, with the upside of being card draw from the graveyard
The new Background stuff is actually really cool IMHO, more interesting in some cases than Partner was, though also objectively much weaker (they went too safe in this set). Some of the Commanders are pretty neat, and some are pretty flavourful, but if you were never into Baldur's Gate (the PC games), you might not find them as interesting/evocative. While I didn't want Sarevok to be exactly like this, it's a very interesting card, lots of these new cards are doing things that really are unique, and many are actually kinda pushed. For example, if you run the new Baeloth with Raised by Giants, he's going to goad everything opponent's have with power 9 or less, which is essentially the whole board, every turn. You just need to keep him alive until only 1 opponent remains, at which point at least you've got a 10/10 to swing with. I'm not sure how you finish the game, but if there has ever been a Crim Gruul deck, this feels like the one. Chaotic Entertainment is a nice theme.
its most definitely not 100% the right call. That's not to say it isnt correct, there is just a legit argument for Seth keeping his Ring. I wasnt going to comment until Tomer confidently claimed the comments section would back him up, I gotta back Seth up hyere
I normally run 20 basics in a 2 color deck
Tomer is Malding but he's right
Yasharn doesn’t stop Evolving Wilds
Budget lands are not that bad and snarls (in a 2c deck) are perfectly fine. Tomer is completely correct in this regard.
Lonis is easily my favorite commander! It’s so powerful and definitely underrated.
Academy Manufactor has gone up a lot recently, so I’m glad I bought it back when it was about a buck or two for Lonis.
Same! This game convinced me to actually get the cards for this deck in paper. Can't wait to miss all these triggers, but at least the game/connection can't crash xD
@@BrewersKitchen Yeah, Lonis has been my favorite since I made it. Pulling off janky combos is my favorite and Lonis is pretty good at that actually. Plus the idea of a slip of paper somehow turning into a giant 4/4 creature with Rise and Shine or Cyberdrive Awakener and beating my opponents to death is hilarious to me.
If you stick to 2 colors you can have a very nice mana base for about $45 and $65 for 3 color decks in paper magic, just by not using fetches or reserved list cards (that is for my evergreen more tuned decks). I only go up to 3 color decks, because the mana base is so expensive..... I think MTGO makes them very disconnected to the reality of making decks for playing. Also, they should run more removal, it is weird that they let things snowball like that, considering they are experienced players.
Love these videos
Editor is not the hero we deserve, but they're the hero we need!