@@magicpyroninjaRemember the trace can’t tell who did the spell, just that it was in the home of an underaged wizard and such wizard will always get the blame. However this is yet another gaping chasm the trace plot holes. If two underage wizards are in the home of one of them and one casts a spell, does the trace know the two are together, does it blame the resident wizard for the spell regardless of who performed the spell as they can not tell or does it blame both young wizards equally? So yeah wizard swatting between underage wizards opens up tha chasm of plot issues and yes, the only foolproof way of swatting is from an adult or magical creature doing magic near a muggle born wizard or a full blood wizard alone and away from any magical areas… maybe. What Dolby did was absolutely swatting though!
Even if he didn’t read the book, the beginning literally centers around Harry being worried that he can’t return to Hogwarts because he did magic when he blew up his aunt. So how would the director not know?
In the first part of the first movie, Hermione fixes Harry's glasses with a Reparo spell. She then talks about how she studied and practice over the summer while waiting to go to Hogwarts. She could only do this practice in her muggle parent's house or surroundings, so unlikely to be camouflaged buy an adult wizard. She could have been warned as Harry was the first time, but she never made any mention of the trace or restrictions even though such a goody two shoes who prefers death to expulsion should have mentioned this to her friends about three times per scene. Maybe more after she saw how little they followed the rules. Now there's a simple explanation for this: JK Rowling is terribly apathetic (or possibly lazy) when it comes to continuity. See also time turners and literally every problem ever in the wizarding world. How it Should Have Ended has a great video illustrating this.
My guess is that Trace works kind of like magical radar - Ministry can only detect location of a spell and if it's anomaly or not. So in case of Burrow or other such places, Ministry won't pay attention to any magic cast there, since it's known place, where adult witches and wizards live. But in case of magic used anywhere in muggle-populated area, there won't be that many possible sources of it. Plus, power used may be important - weak spells would remain under the radar, but something as strong, as Patronus or unforgivable curses, won't. As for applying it to adults - if there are means to protect your mind from magical invasion, perhaps there are means to conceal yourself from Trace as well. Something like potion, that by itself doesn't trigger Trace, but makes user hidden from it for some time.
Thank you, this has been bugging me for years! In the Order Of The Phoenix, Harry gets in trouble for the Patronus charm, like he did with Dobby’s Hover charm, because there shouldn’t be any magic at that address. But, when Moody and the others turn up to rescue Harry they use lots of magic, unlocking the door, to clean Hedwig’s cage ect and yet tgat doesn’t get him into further trouble? I think it’s that Rowling didn’t put that much thought into it until the later books and hoped readers would just gloss over it and ignore the previous canon.
In Goblet of fire harry visits the Burrow before the school year starts and Molly uses magic to make everyone dinner. Harry is in the same room as her, just like when dobby used a hover charm in CoS, but the trace doesn’t go off
😅 the use of lumos maxima is another example, it was just a film thing though. I've gotten them mixed so double check you're thinking book not movie magic. The ministry knew Dudley and mrs fig were there during the patronus incident, so it implies a snapshot of humans nearby (thus avoiding Dobby). Since there were adult wizards when they visit in the 7th, it actually follows lore that it doesn't trigger the trace. Additionally during the 4th when the quidditch world cup happens, Arthur and other wizards use magic on the way and it doesn't trigger, so the sanctioned location bit didn't actually change. It may be that it simply gives the location, which would be an address if at one.
😅 got me on the 7th. Forgot they were actively trying not to trigger his trace. However it still works if being at a wizard's address actually negates the trace triggering and only triggers when outside a known wizard location which is then filtered by the department for adult wizards. This also solves Hogwarts grounds and diagon Alley as well as the invasive nature of recording all spells within a wizard who has children's home.
Maybe the trace does not only inform the Ministery which spell was cast when and where, but also whether an adult wizard was in the area or not. If there is an adult wizard around the Ministery simply assumes he cast the spell and doesn't even bother investigating. In the books Harry never gets into trouble when an adult wizard was around, but the Ministery always knew when a spell was cast and no adult was around. It would fit to the way the Ministery thinks if they didn't see the need to check whether other magical beings like house elves were around. If the trace registers the human beings around the spell it would also explain why the Minstery knew Harry was in the immediate presence of a muggle when he cast the patronus in order of the phenix.
The trace was a stupidly contrived convenience that was not thought out. And if worked on children, then it would have worked on adults. Further, they'd have just had keep the trace on Harry Potter, or put it back on him, and that'd be that.
😅 we don't ever hear that it's possible for adults, in fact it's suggested a few times to the contrary. I mean from your view Gamp's Law of Elemental Transfiguration shouldn't exist either. Just revive the dead, make food, and force someone to fall in love. That easy, just add the trace beyond what in lore says is possible. Just solve all problems while you're at it, no worries about power creep, wizards could just be gods in a few generations. Oh wait -then it'd be a different story and world wouldn't it? 🤔 I'll grant something like the trace, but for adults could exist, just wasn't discovered or implemented. However it's been explained spells and curses can be broken, no one tries to break the trace as it's part of how the law works. We don't know that it'd be difficult to break Now, setting a taboo on the other hand... Is a much better example for what you're getting at
How about this theory: The Ministry of Magic CAN in fact detect whether a spell was performed by an underage wizard or another adult wizard in the area. However, house-elves (and only house-elves) can deliberately choose to "fake" the origin of a spell they cast. We know of instances of magic house-elves can perform while wizards can't (like apparating into the Malfoy cellar). Spell-origin-faking could be another of those instances. It would rarely be used, because really, why would house-elves want to use it under normal circumstances. So maybe the Ministry, being ignorant about the capabilities of near-human creatures as it is, simply doesn't know this possibility exists.
I think the trace only registers magic performed around muggles that couldn't be explained away as a trick of the eye or confusion with something else. For example, lumos could be put down to being a thin torch or laser pen, but a cake 6 foot in the air cannot be suggested to be anything other than magic. "Muggles? Don't see anything do they" -Stan Shunpike If they were able to explain away the "explosion that killed Peter Pettigrew" as a gas leak without any memory charms being performed then there are a lot of things that would go unpunished if not unnoticed. Magic performed by underage wizards in the presence of adult wizards couldn't reliably be placed on the underage one. So the Trace applies common sense, something sorely lacking in the magical world.
The Trace could be applied by the Sorting Hat, as part of it assigning new pupils to Houses. It expires at the age of 17 because pupils can leave school from that age. And of course the highest punishment is to be expelled from Hogwarts, which would also result in the Trace expiring.
"It happened during the school year, so the Trace wasn't active around Harry during the duel in the cemetery" may be good enough for that egregious failure of the Trace, but three Avada Kedavra curses used against the Riddle family in Little Hangleton more than 50 years before that event would not fit that paradigm. It was "the summer of [Tom Riddle, Jr.'s] sixteenth year" (hence, he was 15 years old) that the future Lord Voldemort killed his biological father and that father's parents, and framed Morfin Gaunt, with no response at all from the Ministry.
Yea, because Tom didn't live there and most people didn't know his ancestry. Like I said in a previous comment, "The Trace is stupid!" The most important aspect is the who!
He killed them during WW2 so maybe the trace was disabled or ignored at that time so students could protect themselves against muggles or Grindlewald's followers.
And how do they make sure the adults aren’t doing anything illegal with their magic after school? They don’t! They just trust them and send them on their way. We saw how well that worked with Voldemort and Grindelwald.
I'm pretty sure there's consequences for things like that. It's like real life. There are laws to follow. Some will break them and they'll need to face whatever consequence there is.
😅 this is actually explained in lore. The trace only applies to magic happening around an underage wizard, it can't tell who's casting. So even if you kept the trace around it wouldn't hold conviction power. Unless you put it on everyone which would be a nightmarish amount of data without computers. Even without considering other countries with wizards that can teleport. 😅
Oddly I think the flaws in the idea of the trace led to its authenticity, in the same way that a lot of laws end up having loopholes the trace could have been thought up at a time when the ministry was less like a government agency and more like a small council of elders only concerned with the need at hand and not worried out the future possibles or problem it could cause. Not all wizards are equally talented either and no one knows who cast the original spell, maybe they were just not that good at figuring out all the circumstances.
yeah, theres also the usual loopholes in laws that allow parents discretion with their children. Magical parents teaching their children magic makes sense and is likely something that is allowed to some degree. The main issue with is unsupervised magic usage especially around muggles so muggleborn children will of course get it worse.
I agree. I would also like to point out that even though the use of the trace makes little sense, it is consistent enough in its lack of sense to be held as a reliable part of the story. If the effectiveness of the trace was not universal (i.e. if some muggle-borns were detected while others were not), then at that point, it wouldn’t make sense for any magical government to have adopted it at all, since it would have been considered as less-than-effective for any task that the ministry needed it for. Only at that point would it become close to being called a universally unacceptable method for handling performances of underage magic.
@@fidogyrenuzanon2335 It's highly likely that by now they know damned well how unreliable it is, and have long since stopped paying attention to it except for suddenly 'ooh look, so handy for keeping an eye on that Potter kid!'
My theory is that the Trace is only meant for students of Hogwarts (or perhaps any school of magic). I think that anyone would be able to cast a spell to undo the Trace, which is why they don't use it on adults or specifically criminals. If a student has their Trace removed, that would likely be noticed and be grounds for expulsion. It's still not perfect, but that's just my theory based on what makes sense to me logically.
There are 3 possible reasons. 1. Lily got lucky and it was blamed on someone else (maybe snapes mother) 2. The trace or at least the basic foundation for it was created during the Voldemort war to act as a detection tool for death eaters attacks. 3. It was created after the Voldemort war (her death) by death eaters or their pawns for the eventually next war/larger agenda as they arguably won the first war.
Always appreciate the in-universe analysis. I’m guessing the IRL explanation is that it’s something Rowling put in the book without reflection too deeply on all of the implications (which is honestly a perfectly fine writing method; the books are entertaining; it just can lead to strange results when you think through certain things to their logical conclusions)
One thing in the POA movie that bugs the hell out of me is the opening scene where Harry is sitting in his bed at Privet Drive, practising the Lumos spell, breaking wizarding law, but nothing happens. And in both the book and movie version of OOTP, why does no one point out the fact that Dudley has known about Harrys magic for years and thus no risk of exposing the wizarding world existed when Harry used the Patronus charm. There were no other muggles around either, so no witnesses.
Most likely it's a built-in detection applied to new wands, that is age related and simple spells like lumos isn't going to set it off. Also if an area is where muggles mainly live and there are no magic dwellings registered it's easy for it to be monitored. Other wizards can use magic nearby as they are over 17 and not recorded. Second hand wands passed down may not have the age detection on it still or made before it was brought in. There are many ways it could be done. How do they now when muggles have magic when they don't have wands
I never really gave the Trace that much thought since it was just used as a plot device every now and then. But thinking about it in the grand scheme of things, it really does have more than one flaw in how it works. And the more you think of it, the more that one scene in the Deathly Hollows creates a massive plot hole because of the lack of explanation on how it works and how it's function seems contradictory.
To clarify why they can't use magic around harry at private drive in the deathly hollows, but can at the Wesley's is simple, Ginny, she is underage, so even if the trace activates at the burrow, they would assume it's because Ginny was there
There's also that Hermione stated she used some easy magic before boarding the Hogwarts Express. Which should have triggered the Trace and got her in trouble. That didn't happen as far as we know. Also, what about homework that requires using magic? If the trace is applied when the Quill of Admittance enlists someone for Hogwarts, there is no reason the Trace shouldn't be able to detect who performed the magic. But I don't think that's how it works. We don't know when they started the Trace, but I would assume it's around the time they passed the Statute of Secrecy. So much later than the Quill's creation. They likely came up with something else for that.
On the one hand yes a wizard living among muggles is much more likely to be detected than a wizard living in a wizard household and you can consider this unfair. On the other hand a wizard doing magic in a muggle house is a much greater danger to the statut of secrecy than a wizard doing magic in a wizards house. Therefore it makes sense if the Ministery wants to monitor wizards living in the muggle world more closely.
That's what I was thinking. It's not as much about their prejudice but unfortunately the stakes are higher around muggles so yes it should be easier to detect magic that's used around mostly muggles.
If the primary concern is the Statute of Secrecy, the Ministry may not care if someone underage is performing magic in their wizarding household, presumably under the supervision of their parents. Muggle parents wouldn't be able to control or conceal their child's mishaps. There could also be a bias with wizardkind that live amongst muggles vs living in a wizarding village or out in the middle of nowhere.
to me it sounds like an ancient safeguard that is not completely understood, but can be used to an extend, a lot of ancient magic doesn't seems to be understood, but still have a role to play, I think the trace is 1 of such things
I've always thought that it was placed upon magical offspring at St. Mungo's or by a midwife just after birth. This would skip muggle-borns, of course, which is why Hermione got away with casting a few spells before arriving at Hogwarts. I think JKR mentioned the muggle-borns picking up the trace as they entered Hogwarts for the first time. However, what about those that don't attend? The Quill and Book don't detect magicals until a child does magic, generally before they're seven, if I recall. I don't think that the MoM monitors magical households or districts; only the muggle world. Plus, the areas that they do, I think they look the other way most of the time, unless muggles have witnessed magic, and they're called in. Harry was a special case, and in the crosshairs of Fudge and Umbridge. If you remember, Madam Bones and others were very disgruntled about trying Harry before the Wizengamot.
I think The Trace is a side effect of Voldemort's rise to power. We learn from Petunia that Lily was able to use magic when she was at home during the holidays.
It is possible that Death Eaters may have infiltrated the ministry department responsible for handling the trace. We know of two ministry officials that were death eaters, Lucius Malfoy and Dolores Umbridge. There would have been others, and the trace would have been a prime target for such infiltration.
Idk I think muggle borns having the trace more biased towards them is a bit off, only because of the statute of secrecy. Muggle borns would need the extra eye on them because they are kids with powers, and around other muggles more often than not. That being said they would need the incentive not to use their magic around ordinary people for ease or petty revenge as not to reveal their power. If I was the the person in charge of keeping magic a secret, having a trace on those not mature enough to handle their power and knowing when and where it is being used would sound like a great idea. They also can't have an exact pinpoint trace on peoples magic anyway, for that would be unethical and very few would agree to go for that as a solution. The trace is unreliable and definitely need an upgrade but again idk.
I agree with you but have often wondered why it only affected kids after they get a wand. Magical kids that are younger would need more watching than school aged ones because they'd be the ones to do magic in front of muggles. I can see it now, Christmas and the entire extended family gets together. 4 year old kiddo decides to show off a magic trick he just discovered he can do and shows everyone. How would they explain that to everyone if the trace only starts to work after a child gets a wand? Those family members would tell others about the real magic they just witnessed and, bam, the secrecy is pretty much gone.
@ I would guess the trace being put on them after getting a wand is because wands are just easier to track than just the spellcaster. Especially after the wands making became a bit more standardized with certain wood and core type pairings. Maybe after selling a wand to a child for the first time wand makers have to report that specific wand with that specific child and that's how the trace is activated...? At least in the UK. I also totally agree with the whole magic at Christmas scenario you told, it is very strange how the ministry would keep up with those kinds of incidents. Also because we know early use of magic is 100% able to be tracked and recorded to the specific time, child, and result of the magic used as seen by the book of acceptance and silver quill. We know that kind of trace magic is possible, so why isn't that implemented instead of the vague one in place. Last topic, I'm confused as to why the punishment would be loss of your wand and expulsion as to you could be creating an obscurial in theory because the magic in the individual would be stifled. Granted most obscurials are children under 10, but still the possibility is there. Idk, obviously JKR didn't write about them until much later in the story but it still seems careless on the ministries part. So many questions lol.
@@mr.narrator6781 I never thought about how it's so much more specific with the book of acceptance...VERY good point. Perhaps the old magic used to make book was lost by the time the trace was created? As for obscurials, I don't know if that's what would occur. Look at Hagrid's expulsion and broken wand. If a kid could do magic without a wand when young they could probably still do magic without a wand. Heck, there are some magical places that don't even use wands. But, then again, there could be kids or families of kids so ashamed of being expelled they could turn inward and become obscurials. Who knows.
As far as plot holes go. I think some of them are open to interpretation. But to me the blood packed from Fantastic Beasts makes no sense. Especially when it says it can sense the Betrayal in their hearts yet. They're clearly working against each other the whole time and then the Dual went Dumbledore sister was killed and they got into that fight. How could they have gotten to that fight without the thing killing them? It makes no sense.
Think about what Hermione did to her non-magical parents when not under trace. Then imagine 13 year olds, in muggle communities or sneaking out of magical homes (like the Weasley twins in their dad’s car).
Both the extreme limitations of the trace and the fact that it is not applied to adult criminals made me assume from the time I first read the books that it wasn't something modern wizards could actually control. It is clear that the magic of the ancients was more sophisticated than modern magic and I always assumed that modern wizards simply don't understand the trace well enough to control it. For all we know, it's perfectly capable of detecting exactly who cast the spell but modern wizardry is unable to discern that information from whatever oracle meditates the trace. Alternatively, perhaps it used to supply that specificity but the magic has weakened with time and modern wizards don't know how to repair it.
I believe it's the other way around. The trace only tells the Ministry WHERE a particular kid is, not what that kid's doing. I think the Ministry of Magic must also have some sort of alert system (maybe a log book?) which records ALL magic performed by EVERYONE around it's area of influence (the whole UK maybe?), but such book can't know WHO performed the magic. Probably when an "unforgivable curse" is cast, an alert is issued informing Aurors of the situation so they go and investigate. Perhaps a similar alert is issued to the Improper Use of Magic Office when a spell is performed around a kid with the trace. If the kid is at home or at school and there are no muggles around, all is fine, if the kid's in a public place or muggles are around, they send the howler letter or whatever punishment is fit. It seems that the "statute of secrecy" is rather important, so whatever the incantation is that creates the alert, it probably also informs a second thing: If muggles are present around the magic performed. But there's something else: if I remember well, what's prohibited is performing magic in front of muggles, but not while at home with magic people around you (or in the case of Muggleborns, their already informed parents). In fact children are given homework, and Hermione brags quite a bit on the first books about practicing a lot by herself at home. I think that Dumbledore also informs at some point that parents of Muggleborns are all visited by teachers to let them know of the abilities of their kid, so I also believe they are all "marked" then and there, alongside with all family that lives within the household, so they are not considered simple Muggles and the Statute of Secrecy is not broken if magic is performed around them (I'd say they legally become a type of squib). For all this to work, we'll also need a procedure that EVERY kid in Hogwarts participates in on their very first day of school, and there's one rather obvious choice: the Sorting Hat. It not only selects a house for every kid, but also marks them with the trace, and those who created such magic (the Founding Fathers probably?) were sensible enough to fashion an incantation that only traces the kids for as long as they are underaged. That might also be why there's not a similar trace for convicted criminals, it was magic created a thousand years ago by four rather powerful witches and wizards, something that no one has been able to emulate. Knowing where all the kids who were entrusted to the school are is a rather important thing, so it might have started as a very benign and simple way for the school to know where everyone is and keep children safe and protected, but with time escalated to be monitored by the Ministry of Magic, a way to control all movements performed by kids (and consequently their parents).
It's not such a mystery how the trace gets applied I think: magic. The HP universe has blanket enchantments that apply to everything based on some sort of criteria, like Hogwarts not appearing on muggle maps. This is true despite those maps nor the mapmakers being magical in any way. There might be an enchantment covering all of Britain, flagging up any magic use by people younger than 18 years old. It definitely has a ton of flaws though, but the Ministry is pretty terrible overall so that's not a surprise.
Not 18, it's 17! A wizard comes of age on their 17th birthday. Somehow the Trace enchantment can sense this, if a person is under 17 or not. Ron explained that, the Trace "breaks" once you turn seventeen. The Trace is apparently a special charm applied to students when they come to school, perhaps when they ride the Hogwarts Express the first time? I suppose Hermione could practice simple first year magic spells before coming to Hogwarts as a first year because her Trace hadn't been applied yet. She wasn't supposed to do that, of course! This was clearly an oversight of the Ministry of Magic... Incompetence.
In fantastic beasts we see Dumbledore gets his spells tracked, Maybe it’s as simple as the parents put the trace on there kids and if there muggle born someone from the ministry goes out and does it
I think the trace is a charm to find where magic was used and not to find who used it they only knew where it was performed and there could be another charm gives more detail but for them it was to much work to perform it and thought harry performed the spell it makes it more reasonable
The fact that muggle-born children seem to be targeted more by this could be simply due to the fact that they're around muggles and more likely to let the secret out by accident, which would mean the ministry would need to know anytime they had a slip up so they could cover up
I do think it's possible that PARENTAL supervision counts within the boundaries of the act. So if magical parents are supervising magical children, they don't count that as a violation. This is probably the case, since Mr. Weasley works for the Ministry, and magical shenanigans could get him in trouble.
If I had to guess, the most likely reason for this was most likely due to the weasleys having some sort of defensive magic, which prevented the trace from sending out notifications to their ministry or the ministry had configured the trace in such a way that once it's spanned with notifications are basically disables itself or perhaps doesn't bother sending notifications in wizarding communities to begin with. Both of these do make sense
Your point near the end may be one of the key observations. Why is the trace only applied to children? The only answer to that I can see making sense is that the Ministry has co-oped a magic they don't understand or no longer have the knowledge to repurpose. It wouldn't make sense for them to not apply the trace to anyone that they think pose a risk. It would be logical to assume they are using a tool they can get info from but can't apply as they choose. Further, you only mention criminals. Given they politics regarding goblins and elves, you'd expect them to have a policy of being registered and given the trace. Yet they don't or can't. I think this speaks to something very old, likely created long ago. My guess would be that it was created as a tool to organize the magical community by ensuring they were identified and brought to a sanctioned school. That it goes away when they graduate seems to support this connection you suggest. When the book is no longer interested their actions are no longer recorded. One small note. This magic may predate Wizarding purebloods. That it's not applied but happens automatically seems to speak to a need to identify children specifically born to muggle families. Perhaps a suggestion that pureborn families were not how magic originally presented, but that the first wizards and witches were all muggle born and had to be found.
I think you're more onto something. I doubt the trace is a very individualistic thing. It rather seems to be some sort of overall ancient magic or widespread charm or something that can be detected by a magical instrument.
I could see it being passed with the best of intentions. But ultimately, someone with less than pure intention used it for dubious purposes. It happens all the time in the real world.
i wonder, there might be some different rules to it to. every time harry did get in trouble there was either someone that was not the dursleys in the house at the same time OR it was outside. the dinner guests did not know about harry beeing magical neither did the aunt for instance. and the petronus was cast in the middle of a street which is even worse. one thing i have always wonderd about was petunias remark "she was turning cups into rats when she got back!" or something like that when talking about lilly getting back from school so i wonder if the parrents of the muggleborn might send a request by the ministry that the child can show some of the magic to them (Maybe with a ministry employee or a witch/wizard at the location as a withness making sure no one outside the houshold sees it and nothing wrong happeds etc.
The trace is applied when the book and Quill write there name. Just as the book and quill can tell if a child is magical, even in a muggle home, so the trace is added.
I guess I’m just a normal fan because idc about trace magic. I always did find it funny that Gred and Feorge were able to fly a Ford Anglia and it not be “traced” because it’s a muggle instrument or whatever. And by chance then Harry and Ron get to. And then you find out they were spotted. Yet none of the details, aside from learning they were spotted because of Dumbledore. But then nothing else. I mean, yeah the rest of the book lol. But you understand.
I feel like having the Trace would be an effective way to help law enforcement find any witches or wizards that get kidnapped or have a missing persons bulletin out on them. Maybe that's partially why elite wizarding families agreed to put their kids through it.
I have a question I have not noticed you ever really answered on its own. If I may: What makes a wizard more or less „powerful“ and why are we talking about „power“ all the time? This is a world where everybody essentially has a pistol in their pocket. Even students. There are maniacs throwing around insta-death curses. Even students. shooting 20 combat spells a minute is totally normal. Even for students. Once you know a spell and practiced it well enough, you can even cast it without saying it. What exactly is the thing that is the „power“ here? In my eyes literally everything about beeing a „powerful“ wizard in HP is down to these aspects: - Reflexes - Knowledge - Creativity - Planning - Avada Kedavra spam - the elder wand I feel like „power comparison“ videos are just a cheap trope to get clicks. I would love to hear your opinion on this.
Fred and George always knew this. And honestly. Wizard house holds would be very low risk. Muggle Born or those similar to the way Harry was living. It would be more a issue. Its not a big deal for example magic being cast in a magic household. But grow up in a Muggle area or house it could cause issues with neighbors. The Trace would be a Marauders Map type alert monitor as well. The map lights up in Muggle areas only. (as per shown in Fantastic Beasts and where to find them) when Credence goes hulk smash in New York. The "Trace" is more a idea then actual spell cast on every kid. A Boogey Man to let kids know that there is a monitor system in place. Although without Prior Incantato they would not know for sure.
The way I see it, the Trace is supposed to be a stupid law enacted by the Ministry, and it is *supposed* to be flawed. The Ministry's inability to come up with a better solution - along with their failed attempts at properly enforcing it - just exists as proof of the Ministry's overall incompetency. Throughout the series, it's reinforced repeatedly that the Ministry has been cocking it up at every opportunity they get, and the Trace just seems like another one of those
Not to mention if I remember correctly in the deathly hollows movie when Hermione and Ron were already adults that trace was placed back on them! So it’s possible to place a trace back on an adult so they could’ve done that with prisoners to regulate more easily! However the ministry is so focused on children!
You assume it is a spell attached to a person and not a spell on a magical item. Like the marauders map, It could be a map that simply identifies where and what magic happens and the ministry simply monitors the address of the students/minors for such occurrences.
And to answer the tom riddle killing the gounts, the ministry would of picked up underage magic but with no underage wizard/witch registered in the area, they wouldn't have a clue who it was, and no suspects remeber tom was meant to be in the orphanage summer time, a different part of the country
I also think the trace isn’t applied to underage wizards and witches. It just detects magical energy like how some muggle devices can detect energy signatures. But the spell only detects underage magical energy.
What does not make sense to me is how can a young witch or wizard who lives in a Muggle environment do their Hogwarts homework over the holidays if they are not allowed to use underage magic in their own vicinity or is this practice only referring to muggles that are not part of the immediate household and if that is the case then how was Hermione's own parents able to keep the secret about their daughter a secret from the rest of their family for so long? The Dursleys (much like Dolores Umbridge) have spent much of their lives lying like sailors about Harry, while Dentists(Just like Mr. and Mrs. Granger) and MDs are not exactly encouraged to lie as is part of the job requirements even if the situation isn't job related.
Makes more sense the trace is a charm put on muggles that triggers when they are sufficiently surprised by magic, this would fall in line with how magic users are caught by the law when revealing themselves, when a user is under a certain age they are simply expelled instead of criminally charged
I think the major problem is trying to apply logic to magic. Azkaban prisoners don’t get the trace because the book says it can’t be applied to adults. While I agree it’s not the most effective tool, it works because it’s literally magic. Also the ministry was alerted when Morfin attack Tom Riddle Sr. which would indicate that he also had a trace on him, or maybe Merope still had hers.
I thought the trace is set in a specific place, in the case of Harry's home, and that is it. It doesn't follow him, it is just a mile(s) radius around his house detecting use of magic
From Pottermore of course, some 10 years ago! Nowadays easily found on the official Harry Potter website. It's also explained in the game Hogwarts Mystery during a mission about the new incoming first year students. The Book of Admittance and the Quill of Acceptance. Therefore many people have known about this, for several years already.
Im not sure if its linked to the book & quill; its a good thought but I say personally its linked to getting your wand from Ollivander's because if it was on the person themselves then the ministry would have no excuse not to know who exactly cast what spells. But if it's linked to getting your wand from Ollivander's (Hagrid: Ain't no place better) then it would make sense that the ministry doesn't know who cast what spell just that a spell was cast.
I think it helps to consider that the Trace is probably not perfect. It is a general purpose tools meant to apply to as many different people and situations as possible, and is therefore probably pretty exploitable. Think about parental control software. It is roughly analogous to the Trace in nonmagical terms. It works in most cases, but with a little research and ingenuity, it is pretty easy to circumvent. I imagine an experienced enough wizard, maybe even a school-aged one, could find ways to fool the Trace or bypass it entirely.
I think the trace was deliberately made for harry potter to see if anyone around him would try to do magic (ie another attack). It wouldnt have been made before as petunia wouldve known about it from lily. And thats why any little bit of magic around him gets notified quite instantly
I was always under the impression that the trace was applied to the wands of under age magic users. In my opinion that makes more sense than an arbitrary magic detection enchantment that finds magic used by and around children with no way of knowing who had done it. I know this comes with some complications as well in regards to the story and practicality, but it does seem better than not knowing anything specific at all.
It's just a type of magic. I don't know there's a way to explain it, the owls just know where that person is. Similar probably to how other magical beasts have certain qualities that are not "normal" per se.
This entire theory assumes the Trace is a blanket system without any tiers of monitoring. I think the trace system is far more complex than it is often described.
I totally understand the problem here. The trace is said to be cast on the individual, I think of it like an unseen aura surrounding the individual, it should be ‘person centred’, actually detecting that persons movements and magic usage. But obviously there are many inconsistencies. It’s a very flawed theory in the stories, and it also has a touch of ‘spying/surveillance’ about it. And I agree with the theory of the trace being placed on Azkaban prisoners. I think that’s where it should be used.
I played a TTRPG game called Earthdawn. In it magic is formed around and through Naming and Threads. Things that have Names like people or or objects like Hogwarts or The Elder Wand have magic woven within them and you can attach magic to them with threads. through these threads you can then use magic to enhance your connection with them in various ways. To me this is what the Trace is, a magical thread linked to the house, but still has problems... Worth a look for anyone wanting to create a RPG for the Wizarding World. So in this way, the way the Trace works. The Ministry puts the trace on The United Kingdom, saying any magic performed around an underage wizard will get alerted to "something", perhaps a book, just like the book putting them in the admittance book to Hogwarts.
Against the Trace. Surely a better way would have been to take the wands away from the children during the holidays, if they are unable to cast without a wand. The wands could be securely held at Hogwarts until the children come back for term time.
Perhaps if the trace is connected to the book and quill then it might be a form of ancient magic that the ministry do have access to and also missuse but do not have any actual control over.
the trace is a horrible MacGuffin. and is used when and only when its needed in the story to move it along. it was poorly written and executed with so much in consistency. Tom riddle killing the rabbit. torturing fellow orphans. so on. I would remind everyone that these are children and young adult stories meant for them. And most of them do not see the plot holes, they are not looking for. parents don't need to send thier kids to hogwarts. Children of Muggle born are watched more because we all know how children can over react. would you give a child a gun when they are angry? well magic is more powerful than a gun. not racist, not anything other than a way to keep muggles safe. Harry's house would have an intense magical defense upon it since they were protecting him from Voldemort. so they would be more sensitive. though fair point with book seven 7 potter battle. moody should have gone in with tonks or Kingsley and with invisiblilty charms/clocks, put harry under his and walked him several miles away them poof. magic him away.
Sure the wizard families where supposed to discipline a child if they performed magic outside school (does say in one of the books just not sure which one either 2, 3 or 5). Always assumed it was an area spell rather than a person
Part of me assumed it was placed on the wand when purchased. I realize this doesnt really solve too many problems but could explain how its applied and why it expires. And why its not apploed again so easily
18:08 It is kind of you to assume that in that world there is a right to privacy Considering in our own world, there are many places where you would lack that Right
Is there a possibility if they have linked it to the book of Admittance, which is an ancient magical artefact to which they have added the Trace at a later stage, the might not fully know how it works? After all even we forgot how the Romans made concrete and only just rediscovered it
House Elves apparate which should also set off the trace. Is there a trace on house elves? Is the house elf levitation spell identical to the wizard levitation spell? The trace would make more sense if it was tied to wands instead of people which would explain why they use wands instead of using wandless magic.
I find this scenario quite intriguing and would like to explore it further. Imagine an American family vacationing in England, where the mother is pregnant and on the verge of giving birth. Eventually, she had her baby in England just before they returned home to the United States. This newborn child is identified as magical through a book and silver ink, indicating they belong to the wizarding world. However, since the family is based in America, the child would ultimately attend Ilvermorny rather than Hogwarts. I’m curious how the tracing process would work for this child growing up in the U.S. What are your thoughts on this situation?
Look, i understood the trace as a preteen. It's pretty simple and straightforward. Except how they are applied to the kids. I always figured at birth. Hospital. Or whenever they are registered. But the muggleborn excuse makes perfect sense. It isn't superiority at all. Maybe a little targeted to them because of the statute of secrecy. If magic is being performed in their vicinity, with no explanation, it's more possibly being performed around muggles. And it is explained that it is up to the magical parents to enforce the reasonable restrictions for underage sorcery. However, it is much less likely they are doing it around muggles or would harm muggles if a child in a magical household does magic.
Well he never got in trouble when he removed the glass, trapping dursley so the trace must be placed either when they pick up the wand, that perhaps fades after 5 years or witn them for life or when they enter the school
I prefer the idea that you can board the Hogwarts Express from any major station with a big enough wall between platform 9 & 10 that has Ministry approval; Kings cross being the main one as people like to do/in courage last minute shopping at Diagon Alley.
The trace targets the muggle borns because they are the most likely children to violate the statute of secrecy. The adults in magical households can help keep their children in line
I always wondered about Hermoine. She knew how to cast the Occulas Repairum charm on Harry’s glasses before she ever got to Hogwartz. If the trace was applied to her at home HOW did she know her spell would work on the train ride????
"You can't have the Trace on you anymore Harry! It's wizarding law! The same law that Voldemort definitely obeys and totally wouldn't put a Trace on a wizard that's of age."
As far as the criminals go, if it is a modification of the book and quill. They might not be able to duplicate it. Seeing as ancient magic is not under stood as well as everything else.
don't they face reprisals if it's performed in the presence of a muggle? That would explain Dobby's levitation and Harry's Lumos, and the seeming targeting of muggle-borns.
I’m just going to sneak over to my friends house and do some magic so the ministry sends them a letter and they get into trouble! Hahaha pranks!!
👀 your... Muggleborn friend? Just had to punch down didn't you? 😂
SWAT-ing, wizard style!
You're the one who said it@@YewNayVerse
Here's the problem with your plan. You're also underage so you would set your own off unless you're saying you're an adult who's friends children😮
@@magicpyroninjaRemember the trace can’t tell who did the spell, just that it was in the home of an underaged wizard and such wizard will always get the blame. However this is yet another gaping chasm the trace plot holes. If two underage wizards are in the home of one of them and one casts a spell, does the trace know the two are together, does it blame the resident wizard for the spell regardless of who performed the spell as they can not tell or does it blame both young wizards equally?
So yeah wizard swatting between underage wizards opens up tha chasm of plot issues and yes, the only foolproof way of swatting is from an adult or magical creature doing magic near a muggle born wizard or a full blood wizard alone and away from any magical areas… maybe.
What Dolby did was absolutely swatting though!
Alphonso Cùaron's famous, "I don't need to read the books" was the root of the third movie starting with Harry doing magic on summer break.
Even if he didn’t read the book, the beginning literally centers around Harry being worried that he can’t return to Hogwarts because he did magic when he blew up his aunt. So how would the director not know?
And yet it still holds up as the best one
DID YOU PUT YOUR NAME IN THE GOBLET OF FIRE!!!!!
Dumbledore asked calmly......
@@argylekennethdobbinsiii1565 that's the 4th.
In the first part of the first movie, Hermione fixes Harry's glasses with a Reparo spell. She then talks about how she studied and practice over the summer while waiting to go to Hogwarts. She could only do this practice in her muggle parent's house or surroundings, so unlikely to be camouflaged buy an adult wizard. She could have been warned as Harry was the first time, but she never made any mention of the trace or restrictions even though such a goody two shoes who prefers death to expulsion should have mentioned this to her friends about three times per scene. Maybe more after she saw how little they followed the rules.
Now there's a simple explanation for this: JK Rowling is terribly apathetic (or possibly lazy) when it comes to continuity. See also time turners and literally every problem ever in the wizarding world. How it Should Have Ended has a great video illustrating this.
My guess is that Trace works kind of like magical radar - Ministry can only detect location of a spell and if it's anomaly or not. So in case of Burrow or other such places, Ministry won't pay attention to any magic cast there, since it's known place, where adult witches and wizards live. But in case of magic used anywhere in muggle-populated area, there won't be that many possible sources of it. Plus, power used may be important - weak spells would remain under the radar, but something as strong, as Patronus or unforgivable curses, won't.
As for applying it to adults - if there are means to protect your mind from magical invasion, perhaps there are means to conceal yourself from Trace as well. Something like potion, that by itself doesn't trigger Trace, but makes user hidden from it for some time.
Thank you, this has been bugging me for years! In the Order Of The Phoenix, Harry gets in trouble for the Patronus charm, like he did with Dobby’s Hover charm, because there shouldn’t be any magic at that address. But, when Moody and the others turn up to rescue Harry they use lots of magic, unlocking the door, to clean Hedwig’s cage ect and yet tgat doesn’t get him into further trouble? I think it’s that Rowling didn’t put that much thought into it until the later books and hoped readers would just gloss over it and ignore the previous canon.
In Goblet of fire harry visits the Burrow before the school year starts and Molly uses magic to make everyone dinner. Harry is in the same room as her, just like when dobby used a hover charm in CoS, but the trace doesn’t go off
😅 the use of lumos maxima is another example, it was just a film thing though. I've gotten them mixed so double check you're thinking book not movie magic.
The ministry knew Dudley and mrs fig were there during the patronus incident, so it implies a snapshot of humans nearby (thus avoiding Dobby). Since there were adult wizards when they visit in the 7th, it actually follows lore that it doesn't trigger the trace.
Additionally during the 4th when the quidditch world cup happens, Arthur and other wizards use magic on the way and it doesn't trigger, so the sanctioned location bit didn't actually change. It may be that it simply gives the location, which would be an address if at one.
😅 got me on the 7th. Forgot they were actively trying not to trigger his trace.
However it still works if being at a wizard's address actually negates the trace triggering and only triggers when outside a known wizard location which is then filtered by the department for adult wizards.
This also solves Hogwarts grounds and diagon Alley as well as the invasive nature of recording all spells within a wizard who has children's home.
@@MtgReviewsFromMyCarit does, it’s not enforced at Wizard homes bc the parents/guardians are supposed to stop the underagers from doing any magic.
Maybe the trace does not only inform the Ministery which spell was cast when and where, but also whether an adult wizard was in the area or not. If there is an adult wizard around the Ministery simply assumes he cast the spell and doesn't even bother investigating. In the books Harry never gets into trouble when an adult wizard was around, but the Ministery always knew when a spell was cast and no adult was around. It would fit to the way the Ministery thinks if they didn't see the need to check whether other magical beings like house elves were around. If the trace registers the human beings around the spell it would also explain why the Minstery knew Harry was in the immediate presence of a muggle when he cast the patronus in order of the phenix.
The trace was a stupidly contrived convenience that was not thought out. And if worked on children, then it would have worked on adults. Further, they'd have just had keep the trace on Harry Potter, or put it back on him, and that'd be that.
😅 we don't ever hear that it's possible for adults, in fact it's suggested a few times to the contrary.
I mean from your view Gamp's Law of Elemental Transfiguration shouldn't exist either. Just revive the dead, make food, and force someone to fall in love.
That easy, just add the trace beyond what in lore says is possible.
Just solve all problems while you're at it, no worries about power creep, wizards could just be gods in a few generations.
Oh wait -then it'd be a different story and world wouldn't it? 🤔
I'll grant something like the trace, but for adults could exist, just wasn't discovered or implemented.
However it's been explained spells and curses can be broken, no one tries to break the trace as it's part of how the law works. We don't know that it'd be difficult to break
Now, setting a taboo on the other hand... Is a much better example for what you're getting at
How about this theory: The Ministry of Magic CAN in fact detect whether a spell was performed by an underage wizard or another adult wizard in the area.
However, house-elves (and only house-elves) can deliberately choose to "fake" the origin of a spell they cast. We know of instances of magic house-elves can perform while wizards can't (like apparating into the Malfoy cellar). Spell-origin-faking could be another of those instances. It would rarely be used, because really, why would house-elves want to use it under normal circumstances. So maybe the Ministry, being ignorant about the capabilities of near-human creatures as it is, simply doesn't know this possibility exists.
I think the trace only registers magic performed around muggles that couldn't be explained away as a trick of the eye or confusion with something else. For example, lumos could be put down to being a thin torch or laser pen, but a cake 6 foot in the air cannot be suggested to be anything other than magic.
"Muggles? Don't see anything do they" -Stan Shunpike
If they were able to explain away the "explosion that killed Peter Pettigrew" as a gas leak without any memory charms being performed then there are a lot of things that would go unpunished if not unnoticed.
Magic performed by underage wizards in the presence of adult wizards couldn't reliably be placed on the underage one.
So the Trace applies common sense, something sorely lacking in the magical world.
The Trace could be applied by the Sorting Hat, as part of it assigning new pupils to Houses. It expires at the age of 17 because pupils can leave school from that age. And of course the highest punishment is to be expelled from Hogwarts, which would also result in the Trace expiring.
"It happened during the school year, so the Trace wasn't active around Harry during the duel in the cemetery" may be good enough for that egregious failure of the Trace, but three Avada Kedavra curses used against the Riddle family in Little Hangleton more than 50 years before that event would not fit that paradigm. It was "the summer of [Tom Riddle, Jr.'s] sixteenth year" (hence, he was 15 years old) that the future Lord Voldemort killed his biological father and that father's parents, and framed Morfin Gaunt, with no response at all from the Ministry.
Yea, because Tom didn't live there and most people didn't know his ancestry. Like I said in a previous comment, "The Trace is stupid!" The most important aspect is the who!
He killed them during WW2 so maybe the trace was disabled or ignored at that time so students could protect themselves against muggles or Grindlewald's followers.
And how do they make sure the adults aren’t doing anything illegal with their magic after school? They don’t! They just trust them and send them on their way. We saw how well that worked with Voldemort and Grindelwald.
I'm pretty sure there's consequences for things like that. It's like real life. There are laws to follow. Some will break them and they'll need to face whatever consequence there is.
@@Mnought yeah but it would be quicker to catch the criminal if there was a trace on what spells they used.😊
😅 this is actually explained in lore. The trace only applies to magic happening around an underage wizard, it can't tell who's casting.
So even if you kept the trace around it wouldn't hold conviction power.
Unless you put it on everyone which would be a nightmarish amount of data without computers. Even without considering other countries with wizards that can teleport.
😅
They do have Aurors tho, it's not that they just trust
?Please ?Respond ?To ?Me ?You ?Love This? Channel Or? You? Hate? This? Channel?
Oddly I think the flaws in the idea of the trace led to its authenticity, in the same way that a lot of laws end up having loopholes the trace could have been thought up at a time when the ministry was less like a government agency and more like a small council of elders only concerned with the need at hand and not worried out the future possibles or problem it could cause. Not all wizards are equally talented either and no one knows who cast the original spell, maybe they were just not that good at figuring out all the circumstances.
yeah, theres also the usual loopholes in laws that allow parents discretion with their children. Magical parents teaching their children magic makes sense and is likely something that is allowed to some degree. The main issue with is unsupervised magic usage especially around muggles so muggleborn children will of course get it worse.
I agree. I would also like to point out that even though the use of the trace makes little sense, it is consistent enough in its lack of sense to be held as a reliable part of the story. If the effectiveness of the trace was not universal (i.e. if some muggle-borns were detected while others were not), then at that point, it wouldn’t make sense for any magical government to have adopted it at all, since it would have been considered as less-than-effective for any task that the ministry needed it for. Only at that point would it become close to being called a universally unacceptable method for handling performances of underage magic.
@@fidogyrenuzanon2335 It's highly likely that by now they know damned well how unreliable it is, and have long since stopped paying attention to it except for suddenly 'ooh look, so handy for keeping an eye on that Potter kid!'
My theory is that the Trace is only meant for students of Hogwarts (or perhaps any school of magic). I think that anyone would be able to cast a spell to undo the Trace, which is why they don't use it on adults or specifically criminals. If a student has their Trace removed, that would likely be noticed and be grounds for expulsion. It's still not perfect, but that's just my theory based on what makes sense to me logically.
And why wouldn't Petunia know about the trace? But, didn't she say that Lily was performing magic at home? Confusing.
There are 3 possible reasons.
1. Lily got lucky and it was blamed on someone else (maybe snapes mother)
2. The trace or at least the basic foundation for it was created during the Voldemort war to act as a detection tool for death eaters attacks.
3. It was created after the Voldemort war (her death) by death eaters or their pawns for the eventually next war/larger agenda as they arguably won the first war.
Always appreciate the in-universe analysis. I’m guessing the IRL explanation is that it’s something Rowling put in the book without reflection too deeply on all of the implications (which is honestly a perfectly fine writing method; the books are entertaining; it just can lead to strange results when you think through certain things to their logical conclusions)
Not only that, but it was made clear that you could use magic without a wand when your emotions run high... So that doesn't help
One thing in the POA movie that bugs the hell out of me is the opening scene where Harry is sitting in his bed at Privet Drive, practising the Lumos spell, breaking wizarding law, but nothing happens.
And in both the book and movie version of OOTP, why does no one point out the fact that Dudley has known about Harrys magic for years and thus no risk of exposing the wizarding world existed when Harry used the Patronus charm. There were no other muggles around either, so no witnesses.
Most likely it's a built-in detection applied to new wands, that is age related and simple spells like lumos isn't going to set it off. Also if an area is where muggles mainly live and there are no magic dwellings registered it's easy for it to be monitored. Other wizards can use magic nearby as they are over 17 and not recorded. Second hand wands passed down may not have the age detection on it still or made before it was brought in. There are many ways it could be done. How do they now when muggles have magic when they don't have wands
I never really gave the Trace that much thought since it was just used as a plot device every now and then. But thinking about it in the grand scheme of things, it really does have more than one flaw in how it works. And the more you think of it, the more that one scene in the Deathly Hollows creates a massive plot hole because of the lack of explanation on how it works and how it's function seems contradictory.
To clarify why they can't use magic around harry at private drive in the deathly hollows, but can at the Wesley's is simple, Ginny, she is underage, so even if the trace activates at the burrow, they would assume it's because Ginny was there
There's also that Hermione stated she used some easy magic before boarding the Hogwarts Express. Which should have triggered the Trace and got her in trouble. That didn't happen as far as we know. Also, what about homework that requires using magic?
If the trace is applied when the Quill of Admittance enlists someone for Hogwarts, there is no reason the Trace shouldn't be able to detect who performed the magic. But I don't think that's how it works. We don't know when they started the Trace, but I would assume it's around the time they passed the Statute of Secrecy. So much later than the Quill's creation. They likely came up with something else for that.
On the one hand yes a wizard living among muggles is much more likely to be detected than a wizard living in a wizard household and you can consider this unfair. On the other hand a wizard doing magic in a muggle house is a much greater danger to the statut of secrecy than a wizard doing magic in a wizards house. Therefore it makes sense if the Ministery wants to monitor wizards living in the muggle world more closely.
That's what I was thinking. It's not as much about their prejudice but unfortunately the stakes are higher around muggles so yes it should be easier to detect magic that's used around mostly muggles.
If the primary concern is the Statute of Secrecy, the Ministry may not care if someone underage is performing magic in their wizarding household, presumably under the supervision of their parents. Muggle parents wouldn't be able to control or conceal their child's mishaps. There could also be a bias with wizardkind that live amongst muggles vs living in a wizarding village or out in the middle of nowhere.
That's the thing. It's not about punishing young wizards for doing magic outside school. It's a safeguard for the Statute of secrecy.
The RUclips trace is saying I’ve been subdcibed for 3+ years I never want this to break.
to me it sounds like an ancient safeguard that is not completely understood, but can be used to an extend, a lot of ancient magic doesn't seems to be understood, but still have a role to play, I think the trace is 1 of such things
I've always thought that it was placed upon magical offspring at St. Mungo's or by a midwife just after birth. This would skip muggle-borns, of course, which is why Hermione got away with casting a few spells before arriving at Hogwarts. I think JKR mentioned the muggle-borns picking up the trace as they entered Hogwarts for the first time. However, what about those that don't attend?
The Quill and Book don't detect magicals until a child does magic, generally before they're seven, if I recall.
I don't think that the MoM monitors magical households or districts; only the muggle world. Plus, the areas that they do, I think they look the other way most of the time, unless muggles have witnessed magic, and they're called in. Harry was a special case, and in the crosshairs of Fudge and Umbridge. If you remember, Madam Bones and others were very disgruntled about trying Harry before the Wizengamot.
I really like your voice, it is soothing. The background music fits perfectly.
I think The Trace is a side effect of Voldemort's rise to power. We learn from Petunia that Lily was able to use magic when she was at home during the holidays.
It is possible that Death Eaters may have infiltrated the ministry department responsible for handling the trace. We know of two ministry officials that were death eaters, Lucius Malfoy and Dolores Umbridge. There would have been others, and the trace would have been a prime target for such infiltration.
Idk I think muggle borns having the trace more biased towards them is a bit off, only because of the statute of secrecy. Muggle borns would need the extra eye on them because they are kids with powers, and around other muggles more often than not. That being said they would need the incentive not to use their magic around ordinary people for ease or petty revenge as not to reveal their power. If I was the the person in charge of keeping magic a secret, having a trace on those not mature enough to handle their power and knowing when and where it is being used would sound like a great idea. They also can't have an exact pinpoint trace on peoples magic anyway, for that would be unethical and very few would agree to go for that as a solution. The trace is unreliable and definitely need an upgrade but again idk.
I agree with you but have often wondered why it only affected kids after they get a wand.
Magical kids that are younger would need more watching than school aged ones because they'd be the ones to do magic in front of muggles.
I can see it now, Christmas and the entire extended family gets together. 4 year old kiddo decides to show off a magic trick he just discovered he can do and shows everyone.
How would they explain that to everyone if the trace only starts to work after a child gets a wand? Those family members would tell others about the real magic they just witnessed and, bam, the secrecy is pretty much gone.
@ I would guess the trace being put on them after getting a wand is because wands are just easier to track than just the spellcaster. Especially after the wands making became a bit more standardized with certain wood and core type pairings. Maybe after selling a wand to a child for the first time wand makers have to report that specific wand with that specific child and that's how the trace is activated...? At least in the UK. I also totally agree with the whole magic at Christmas scenario you told, it is very strange how the ministry would keep up with those kinds of incidents. Also because we know early use of magic is 100% able to be tracked and recorded to the specific time, child, and result of the magic used as seen by the book of acceptance and silver quill. We know that kind of trace magic is possible, so why isn't that implemented instead of the vague one in place. Last topic, I'm confused as to why the punishment would be loss of your wand and expulsion as to you could be creating an obscurial in theory because the magic in the individual would be stifled. Granted most obscurials are children under 10, but still the possibility is there. Idk, obviously JKR didn't write about them until much later in the story but it still seems careless on the ministries part. So many questions lol.
@@mr.narrator6781 I never thought about how it's so much more specific with the book of acceptance...VERY good point. Perhaps the old magic used to make book was lost by the time the trace was created?
As for obscurials, I don't know if that's what would occur. Look at Hagrid's expulsion and broken wand. If a kid could do magic without a wand when young they could probably still do magic without a wand. Heck, there are some magical places that don't even use wands. But, then again, there could be kids or families of kids so ashamed of being expelled they could turn inward and become obscurials.
Who knows.
As far as plot holes go. I think some of them are open to interpretation. But to me the blood packed from Fantastic Beasts makes no sense. Especially when it says it can sense the Betrayal in their hearts yet. They're clearly working against each other the whole time and then the Dual went Dumbledore sister was killed and they got into that fight. How could they have gotten to that fight without the thing killing them? It makes no sense.
Think about what Hermione did to her non-magical parents when not under trace. Then imagine 13 year olds, in muggle communities or sneaking out of magical homes (like the Weasley twins in their dad’s car).
Both the extreme limitations of the trace and the fact that it is not applied to adult criminals made me assume from the time I first read the books that it wasn't something modern wizards could actually control. It is clear that the magic of the ancients was more sophisticated than modern magic and I always assumed that modern wizards simply don't understand the trace well enough to control it. For all we know, it's perfectly capable of detecting exactly who cast the spell but modern wizardry is unable to discern that information from whatever oracle meditates the trace. Alternatively, perhaps it used to supply that specificity but the magic has weakened with time and modern wizards don't know how to repair it.
Good theory too. Think of those things in the Department of mysteries, there's a lot they don't understand or try to study.
Brilliant incites and commentary into the trace! Thank You for sharing!
I believe it's the other way around. The trace only tells the Ministry WHERE a particular kid is, not what that kid's doing.
I think the Ministry of Magic must also have some sort of alert system (maybe a log book?) which records ALL magic performed by EVERYONE around it's area of influence (the whole UK maybe?), but such book can't know WHO performed the magic. Probably when an "unforgivable curse" is cast, an alert is issued informing Aurors of the situation so they go and investigate. Perhaps a similar alert is issued to the Improper Use of Magic Office when a spell is performed around a kid with the trace. If the kid is at home or at school and there are no muggles around, all is fine, if the kid's in a public place or muggles are around, they send the howler letter or whatever punishment is fit.
It seems that the "statute of secrecy" is rather important, so whatever the incantation is that creates the alert, it probably also informs a second thing: If muggles are present around the magic performed.
But there's something else: if I remember well, what's prohibited is performing magic in front of muggles, but not while at home with magic people around you (or in the case of Muggleborns, their already informed parents). In fact children are given homework, and Hermione brags quite a bit on the first books about practicing a lot by herself at home. I think that Dumbledore also informs at some point that parents of Muggleborns are all visited by teachers to let them know of the abilities of their kid, so I also believe they are all "marked" then and there, alongside with all family that lives within the household, so they are not considered simple Muggles and the Statute of Secrecy is not broken if magic is performed around them (I'd say they legally become a type of squib).
For all this to work, we'll also need a procedure that EVERY kid in Hogwarts participates in on their very first day of school, and there's one rather obvious choice: the Sorting Hat. It not only selects a house for every kid, but also marks them with the trace, and those who created such magic (the Founding Fathers probably?) were sensible enough to fashion an incantation that only traces the kids for as long as they are underaged. That might also be why there's not a similar trace for convicted criminals, it was magic created a thousand years ago by four rather powerful witches and wizards, something that no one has been able to emulate.
Knowing where all the kids who were entrusted to the school are is a rather important thing, so it might have started as a very benign and simple way for the school to know where everyone is and keep children safe and protected, but with time escalated to be monitored by the Ministry of Magic, a way to control all movements performed by kids (and consequently their parents).
Good theory. I think it is definitely more related to whether muggles were around.
I definitely never thought about Tom Riddle murdering his parents or the grave yard battle when voldemort was ressurected. This is an excellent video.
What about the trace being put on witch/wizard children when they open their invitation to attend a magical school like Hogwarts?
It's not such a mystery how the trace gets applied I think: magic. The HP universe has blanket enchantments that apply to everything based on some sort of criteria, like Hogwarts not appearing on muggle maps. This is true despite those maps nor the mapmakers being magical in any way. There might be an enchantment covering all of Britain, flagging up any magic use by people younger than 18 years old. It definitely has a ton of flaws though, but the Ministry is pretty terrible overall so that's not a surprise.
Not 18, it's 17! A wizard comes of age on their 17th birthday.
Somehow the Trace enchantment can sense this, if a person is under 17 or not.
Ron explained that, the Trace "breaks" once you turn seventeen.
The Trace is apparently a special charm applied to students when they come to school, perhaps when they ride the Hogwarts Express the first time?
I suppose Hermione could practice simple first year magic spells before coming to Hogwarts as a first year because her Trace hadn't been applied yet.
She wasn't supposed to do that, of course!
This was clearly an oversight of the Ministry of Magic... Incompetence.
Hi! I love your videos!
In fantastic beasts we see Dumbledore gets his spells tracked,
Maybe it’s as simple as the parents put the trace on there kids and if there muggle born someone from the ministry goes out and does it
Amazing video on the trace put on younger wizards in the wizarding world of Harry Potter,fantastic job.
'[I] wonder why they don't implement this same sort of system on.... oh.... I don't know, criminals!' I loved that delivery. 😂
I think the trace is a charm to find where magic was used and not to find who used it they only knew where it was performed and there could be another charm gives more detail but for them it was to much work to perform it and thought harry performed the spell it makes it more reasonable
The trace lets the ministry spy on us!
Me: Ah the government is spying on us... A tale has old has our Civilization. XD
The fact that muggle-born children seem to be targeted more by this could be simply due to the fact that they're around muggles and more likely to let the secret out by accident, which would mean the ministry would need to know anytime they had a slip up so they could cover up
When it comes to the Trace being used on prisoner, who says that someone didn't remove the trace upon escape from prison?
I do think it's possible that PARENTAL supervision counts within the boundaries of the act. So if magical parents are supervising magical children, they don't count that as a violation. This is probably the case, since Mr. Weasley works for the Ministry, and magical shenanigans could get him in trouble.
If I had to guess, the most likely reason for this was most likely due to the weasleys having some sort of defensive magic, which prevented the trace from sending out notifications to their ministry or the ministry had configured the trace in such a way that once it's spanned with notifications are basically disables itself or perhaps doesn't bother sending notifications in wizarding communities to begin with. Both of these do make sense
Your point near the end may be one of the key observations. Why is the trace only applied to children?
The only answer to that I can see making sense is that the Ministry has co-oped a magic they don't understand or no longer have the knowledge to repurpose. It wouldn't make sense for them to not apply the trace to anyone that they think pose a risk. It would be logical to assume they are using a tool they can get info from but can't apply as they choose. Further, you only mention criminals. Given they politics regarding goblins and elves, you'd expect them to have a policy of being registered and given the trace. Yet they don't or can't.
I think this speaks to something very old, likely created long ago. My guess would be that it was created as a tool to organize the magical community by ensuring they were identified and brought to a sanctioned school. That it goes away when they graduate seems to support this connection you suggest. When the book is no longer interested their actions are no longer recorded.
One small note. This magic may predate Wizarding purebloods. That it's not applied but happens automatically seems to speak to a need to identify children specifically born to muggle families. Perhaps a suggestion that pureborn families were not how magic originally presented, but that the first wizards and witches were all muggle born and had to be found.
I think you're more onto something. I doubt the trace is a very individualistic thing. It rather seems to be some sort of overall ancient magic or widespread charm or something that can be detected by a magical instrument.
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In defense of the Prisoner of Azkaban film, I'm pretty sure the Trace hadn't been introduced as a concept yet in the books when that movie came out.
I could see it being passed with the best of intentions. But ultimately, someone with less than pure intention used it for dubious purposes. It happens all the time in the real world.
i wonder, there might be some different rules to it to. every time harry did get in trouble there was either someone that was not the dursleys in the house at the same time OR it was outside. the dinner guests did not know about harry beeing magical neither did the aunt for instance. and the petronus was cast in the middle of a street which is even worse. one thing i have always wonderd about was petunias remark "she was turning cups into rats when she got back!" or something like that when talking about lilly getting back from school so i wonder if the parrents of the muggleborn might send a request by the ministry that the child can show some of the magic to them (Maybe with a ministry employee or a witch/wizard at the location as a withness making sure no one outside the houshold sees it and nothing wrong happeds etc.
The trace is applied when the book and Quill write there name. Just as the book and quill can tell if a child is magical, even in a muggle home, so the trace is added.
I guess I’m just a normal fan because idc about trace magic. I always did find it funny that Gred and Feorge were able to fly a Ford Anglia and it not be “traced” because it’s a muggle instrument or whatever. And by chance then Harry and Ron get to. And then you find out they were spotted. Yet none of the details, aside from learning they were spotted because of Dumbledore. But then nothing else. I mean, yeah the rest of the book lol. But you understand.
I feel like having the Trace would be an effective way to help law enforcement find any witches or wizards that get kidnapped or have a missing persons bulletin out on them. Maybe that's partially why elite wizarding families agreed to put their kids through it.
I have a question I have not noticed you ever really answered on its own. If I may: What makes a wizard more or less „powerful“ and why are we talking about „power“ all the time?
This is a world where everybody essentially has a pistol in their pocket. Even students. There are maniacs throwing around insta-death curses. Even students. shooting 20 combat spells a minute is totally normal. Even for students. Once you know a spell and practiced it well enough, you can even cast it without saying it.
What exactly is the thing that is the „power“ here?
In my eyes literally everything about beeing a „powerful“ wizard in HP is down to these aspects:
- Reflexes
- Knowledge
- Creativity
- Planning
- Avada Kedavra spam
- the elder wand
I feel like „power comparison“ videos are just a cheap trope to get clicks.
I would love to hear your opinion on this.
Plus, Dobby apparated in and out of the Dursley house, but the trace never noticed that.
Fred and George always knew this. And honestly. Wizard house holds would be very low risk. Muggle Born or those similar to the way Harry was living. It would be more a issue.
Its not a big deal for example magic being cast in a magic household. But grow up in a Muggle area or house it could cause issues with neighbors. The Trace would be a Marauders Map type alert monitor as well. The map lights up in Muggle areas only. (as per shown in Fantastic Beasts and where to find them) when Credence goes hulk smash in New York.
The "Trace" is more a idea then actual spell cast on every kid. A Boogey Man to let kids know that there is a monitor system in place. Although without Prior Incantato they would not know for sure.
The way I see it, the Trace is supposed to be a stupid law enacted by the Ministry, and it is *supposed* to be flawed. The Ministry's inability to come up with a better solution - along with their failed attempts at properly enforcing it - just exists as proof of the Ministry's overall incompetency. Throughout the series, it's reinforced repeatedly that the Ministry has been cocking it up at every opportunity they get, and the Trace just seems like another one of those
I think The Ministry probably puts the trace on their acceptance letters knowing the kids would grab it.
Not to mention if I remember correctly in the deathly hollows movie when Hermione and Ron were already adults that trace was placed back on them! So it’s possible to place a trace back on an adult so they could’ve done that with prisoners to regulate more easily! However the ministry is so focused on children!
Was that trace not based on someone saying the word 'Voldemort'?
@ no that was more of a taboo. Voldemort himself cursed his name or at the very most spread that rumor is a fear tactic
You assume it is a spell attached to a person and not a spell on a magical item. Like the marauders map, It could be a map that simply identifies where and what magic happens and the ministry simply monitors the address of the students/minors for such occurrences.
And to answer the tom riddle killing the gounts, the ministry would of picked up underage magic but with no underage wizard/witch registered in the area, they wouldn't have a clue who it was, and no suspects remeber tom was meant to be in the orphanage summer time, a different part of the country
It might also be the notice they received before going home. It could make a magical contract, with a time limit for example 3 months. Then breaks.
I also think the trace isn’t applied to underage wizards and witches. It just detects magical energy like how some muggle devices can detect energy signatures. But the spell only detects underage magical energy.
What does not make sense to me is how can a young witch or wizard who lives in a Muggle environment do their Hogwarts homework over the holidays if they are not allowed to use underage magic in their own vicinity or is this practice only referring to muggles that are not part of the immediate household and if that is the case then how was Hermione's own parents able to keep the secret about their daughter a secret from the rest of their family for so long? The Dursleys (much like Dolores Umbridge) have spent much of their lives lying like sailors about Harry, while Dentists(Just like Mr. and Mrs. Granger) and MDs are not exactly encouraged to lie as is part of the job requirements even if the situation isn't job related.
Makes more sense the trace is a charm put on muggles that triggers when they are sufficiently surprised by magic, this would fall in line with how magic users are caught by the law when revealing themselves, when a user is under a certain age they are simply expelled instead of criminally charged
I think the major problem is trying to apply logic to magic. Azkaban prisoners don’t get the trace because the book says it can’t be applied to adults. While I agree it’s not the most effective tool, it works because it’s literally magic. Also the ministry was alerted when Morfin attack Tom Riddle Sr. which would indicate that he also had a trace on him, or maybe Merope still had hers.
I thought the trace is set in a specific place, in the case of Harry's home, and that is it. It doesn't follow him, it is just a mile(s) radius around his house detecting use of magic
I'm pretty sure that I saw Lucius Malfoy sneaking around the Granger house casting spells during summer break.
Where does the text about the book and quill come from? Which book?
From Pottermore of course, some 10 years ago! Nowadays easily found on the official Harry Potter website.
It's also explained in the game Hogwarts Mystery during a mission about the new incoming first year students.
The Book of Admittance and the Quill of Acceptance.
Therefore many people have known about this, for several years already.
Im not sure if its linked to the book & quill; its a good thought but I say personally its linked to getting your wand from Ollivander's because if it was on the person themselves then the ministry would have no excuse not to know who exactly cast what spells. But if it's linked to getting your wand from Ollivander's (Hagrid: Ain't no place better) then it would make sense that the ministry doesn't know who cast what spell just that a spell was cast.
I think it helps to consider that the Trace is probably not perfect.
It is a general purpose tools meant to apply to as many different people and situations as possible, and is therefore probably pretty exploitable.
Think about parental control software. It is roughly analogous to the Trace in nonmagical terms. It works in most cases, but with a little research and ingenuity, it is pretty easy to circumvent. I imagine an experienced enough wizard, maybe even a school-aged one, could find ways to fool the Trace or bypass it entirely.
Awesome as always thanks ❤
I think the trace was deliberately made for harry potter to see if anyone around him would try to do magic (ie another attack). It wouldnt have been made before as petunia wouldve known about it from lily. And thats why any little bit of magic around him gets notified quite instantly
I was always under the impression that the trace was applied to the wands of under age magic users. In my opinion that makes more sense than an arbitrary magic detection enchantment that finds magic used by and around children with no way of knowing who had done it. I know this comes with some complications as well in regards to the story and practicality, but it does seem better than not knowing anything specific at all.
What about the glass disappearing from the snake enclosure at the zoo?
The trace is a plot monkey. It's primary function is to move the plot along and is discarded when not needed or problematic.
How do owls find the person who they have to deliver mail to. Do adults have some form of trace too that owls can feel/see?
It's just a type of magic. I don't know there's a way to explain it, the owls just know where that person is. Similar probably to how other magical beasts have certain qualities that are not "normal" per se.
This entire theory assumes the Trace is a blanket system without any tiers of monitoring. I think the trace system is far more complex than it is often described.
I totally understand the problem here. The trace is said to be cast on the individual, I think of it like an unseen aura surrounding the individual, it should be ‘person centred’, actually detecting that persons movements and magic usage. But obviously there are many inconsistencies. It’s a very flawed theory in the stories, and it also has a touch of ‘spying/surveillance’ about it.
And I agree with the theory of the trace being placed on Azkaban prisoners. I think that’s where it should be used.
I played a TTRPG game called Earthdawn. In it magic is formed around and through Naming and Threads. Things that have Names like people or or objects like Hogwarts or The Elder Wand have magic woven within them and you can attach magic to them with threads. through these threads you can then use magic to enhance your connection with them in various ways. To me this is what the Trace is, a magical thread linked to the house, but still has problems... Worth a look for anyone wanting to create a RPG for the Wizarding World.
So in this way, the way the Trace works. The Ministry puts the trace on The United Kingdom, saying any magic performed around an underage wizard will get alerted to "something", perhaps a book, just like the book putting them in the admittance book to Hogwarts.
Against the Trace. Surely a better way would have been to take the wands away from the children during the holidays, if they are unable to cast without a wand. The wands could be securely held at Hogwarts until the children come back for term time.
Perhaps if the trace is connected to the book and quill then it might be a form of ancient magic that the ministry do have access to and also missuse but do not have any actual control over.
the trace is a horrible MacGuffin. and is used when and only when its needed in the story to move it along. it was poorly written and executed with so much in consistency. Tom riddle killing the rabbit. torturing fellow orphans. so on. I would remind everyone that these are children and young adult stories meant for them. And most of them do not see the plot holes, they are not looking for.
parents don't need to send thier kids to hogwarts.
Children of Muggle born are watched more because we all know how children can over react. would you give a child a gun when they are angry? well magic is more powerful than a gun. not racist, not anything other than a way to keep muggles safe.
Harry's house would have an intense magical defense upon it since they were protecting him from Voldemort. so they would be more sensitive. though fair point with book seven 7 potter battle. moody should have gone in with tonks or Kingsley and with invisiblilty charms/clocks, put harry under his and walked him several miles away them poof. magic him away.
I made a post about this on Facebook!
Hermione admits to doing magic at home during the train ride to Hogwarts in the first book
Sure the wizard families where supposed to discipline a child if they performed magic outside school (does say in one of the books just not sure which one either 2, 3 or 5).
Always assumed it was an area spell rather than a person
that’s was how I saw it too… and Harry’s home would have been covered because trouble may come to him..
Part of me assumed it was placed on the wand when purchased. I realize this doesnt really solve too many problems but could explain how its applied and why it expires. And why its not apploed again so easily
18:08 It is kind of you to assume that in that world there is a right to privacy
Considering in our own world, there are many places where you would lack that Right
Is there a possibility if they have linked it to the book of Admittance, which is an ancient magical artefact to which they have added the Trace at a later stage, the might not fully know how it works? After all even we forgot how the Romans made concrete and only just rediscovered it
House Elves apparate which should also set off the trace. Is there a trace on house elves? Is the house elf levitation spell identical to the wizard levitation spell? The trace would make more sense if it was tied to wands instead of people which would explain why they use wands instead of using wandless magic.
I find this scenario quite intriguing and would like to explore it further. Imagine an American family vacationing in England, where the mother is pregnant and on the verge of giving birth. Eventually, she had her baby in England just before they returned home to the United States. This newborn child is identified as magical through a book and silver ink, indicating they belong to the wizarding world. However, since the family is based in America, the child would ultimately attend Ilvermorny rather than Hogwarts. I’m curious how the tracing process would work for this child growing up in the U.S. What are your thoughts on this situation?
Look, i understood the trace as a preteen. It's pretty simple and straightforward. Except how they are applied to the kids. I always figured at birth. Hospital. Or whenever they are registered.
But the muggleborn excuse makes perfect sense. It isn't superiority at all. Maybe a little targeted to them because of the statute of secrecy. If magic is being performed in their vicinity, with no explanation, it's more possibly being performed around muggles.
And it is explained that it is up to the magical parents to enforce the reasonable restrictions for underage sorcery. However, it is much less likely they are doing it around muggles or would harm muggles if a child in a magical household does magic.
Well he never got in trouble when he removed the glass, trapping dursley so the trace must be placed either when they pick up the wand, that perhaps fades after 5 years or witn them for life or when they enter the school
I prefer the idea that you can board the Hogwarts Express from any major station with a big enough wall between platform 9 & 10 that has Ministry approval; Kings cross being the main one as people like to do/in courage last minute shopping at Diagon Alley.
The trace targets the muggle borns because they are the most likely children to violate the statute of secrecy. The adults in magical households can help keep their children in line
I always wondered about Hermoine. She knew how to cast the Occulas Repairum charm on Harry’s glasses before she ever got to Hogwartz. If the trace was applied to her at home HOW did she know her spell would work on the train ride????
"You can't have the Trace on you anymore Harry! It's wizarding law! The same law that Voldemort definitely obeys and totally wouldn't put a Trace on a wizard that's of age."
As far as the criminals go, if it is a modification of the book and quill. They might not be able to duplicate it. Seeing as ancient magic is not under stood as well as everything else.
4:32 They need to do Magic to get into Hogworts in the 1st place.
don't they face reprisals if it's performed in the presence of a muggle? That would explain Dobby's levitation and Harry's Lumos, and the seeming targeting of muggle-borns.