I only ever compare wheel power when using dynos as that’s what the computer software sees and then makes its own calculations for flywheel power. I did enjoy the video, thanks for doing it.
That interesting to see. You may have noticed whp actually didn't differ that much between dynos, so perhaps that is the most representative figure, rather than a calculation?
I enjoyed that. Interesting, hearing what the Dyno Developments guy was saying. Highly knowledgeable. So what you absolutely must do now, is take Gumpert to Dyno Developments. No arguments. Funny, watching Ben miming an explosion, when Gumpert was on the rollers.😂
Funny you should say that about taking the 3.2 to Dyno Developments... I feel as though there's some unfinished business! It would be good to speak to Mike there again too, he was really knowledgeable and very accommodating in having us there and also had a very impressive setup. The thing with the 3.2 is it seems like it revs 500RPM more than you'd expect it to, so it does sound like it may explode when at those high revs!
@@golfmk2 unfinished business is what I was thinking. You'll have to go back. The largest dyno I have seen to date, was at Harry Pounds yard at Portsmouth. I don't think the yard exists any more. The dyno was one used to test marine engines. It was massive.
I can imagine it even put the 1400bhp tested at Dyno Developments to shame... along with 10,000 lb ft of torque it likely produced! Watch this space regarding a revisit to Dyno Developments...
Love the rev happy nature of the kr lumps with the larger inlet manifold, one of the best vw engines made imho. I had a late tornado big bumper on koni t/a with Ronal LS 8x15's on ,bbs carbon steering wheel, votex centre console, loved that car. Also baxk in the early noughties i had a mk1 with a much ported and flowed kr in , ashley 4 branch, mangoletsi inlet with some lovely brand new Weber 45's running 38mm chokes, it rev'd like billyo. Would give e36 m3 evo's a hard time upto a ton. Also ran the 1/4 mile back at the trl gti international in low 14 seconds on street tyres and no prep. Was a quick little car
That's really cool! The KR really is a great engine and seems to respond really well to modifications, allowing to to rev so freely, as you said. 14 seconds on the 1/4 mile is pretty impressive!
Great video. On the mk1 me and my dad run, always feels low on power at the rollers we use, but is always great racing on track against people who say they have a lot more. The rollers are great for making sure it runs correct as you say, and then bull stops on the track
Thanks, glad you liked the video. You'd think at the track, underplaying the figures would make more sense. I remember a guy running a Sierra Cosworth coming up to see the ABF Mk2 in the pits, "it's turbo'd yeah?" Nope, have a look. (At the time modded standard single throttle inlet, stock cams) "Must be cammed then?" (Lifts oil cap) no, still on factory cams. He was hoping to see some power advantage I guess to be like aahhhh that's why it's quick 😅
Thank you! You've summed it up perfectly. The dyno is ideal for seeing how the car is running or what effect mods have had. The figure is pretty meaningless regarding actual speed, it's merely a reference.
@@golfmk2 I seem to recall her making 153 at one point, with a K&N filter, but can't remember what year that was - 1995 maybe? (It's in the paperwork).
Stealth racing 👌👌 wouldnt use anyone else ! Number's are irrelevant to me, knowing Vince and John's years of experience is why I'd rather drive 2 hours than let anyone else map my cars 👍
Their knowledge of engines (VR6's in particular) is unquestionable and carried out the map on my very own 3.2. 6 years later and it's still going strong (aside from the unrelated electrical gremlin) And if you're repeatedly using their dyno to measure mods or for tuning then that is ideal, as the numbers are all relative to that dyno.
I think that's perfectly feasible. With the de-cat (which you can do on the Mk2, due to age of vehicle), some tasty cams and a remap to suit then I reckon ours could achieve that figure. Ben's ABF, for example, went from 180bhp to 200bhp with a set of cams and the map.
@chrishughes9339 I think you're right. I do enjoy the sound of a turbo flutter, but I wouldn't want to go huge boost, as I like the torque all across the rev range this produces. And Ben's ABF for that matter too. Although... the idea of a supercharger sounds fun! Same torque curve, same noise, but with more induction! (But very expensive) 🥲
My old jetta 2.9 vr6 with schrick 260 ? cams ,intake ,exhaust ,throttle body ,amd mapped would regularly hit 170 @ wheels, almost everywhere.Sounded the mutts nuts though.
I think that's just the tyre under high load, as the ramping at Stealth seemed to load the cars greatly. That's what I can think of is the reason anyway. Thanks for watching though. Did you enjoy it?
The estimated flywheel figures from all the tests are a fair way off. The wheel figures from the first dyno and stealth look about right...ive seen countless fairly std KR's make 112-114 at the wheels, a tired one is under 110, a very good one 116-118, but only ever seen 2 up at that level. Power losses...no FWD transmission looses nearly 25%, figures of around 15% are the norm, putting the KR around mid 130's, and the ABF at 200...both very realistic. That also puts the R32 at around low to mid 270's. Torque figures are also off as the flywheel figures are out a bit..figure on low to mid 160 being realistic on a mild spec ABF, you won't see over 170ibft without a competition spec on an engine dyno. As for the last rollers, just like the claim that tuning cant be carried out on an inertia dyno is horse$hit so are the figures. There would be something seriously wrong with the engine in that spec that only made 155 at the wheels, a kjet injection 2ltr 16v will do that with a ported head and mild cams. The circa 170 at the wheels off the other rollers is in the right ballpark depending on the exact spec. Also, 42mm throttle plates are good for around 230hp, so no restrictions at 200. Stealth has always given generous flywheel figures, but the wheel figures aren't far off, and their tuning abiity is superb, particularly with VR's and kjet...so a gain is a gain if the wheel figures go up...but use common sense with the flywheel figures. Didn't see any wheel figures from the R32?...may have missed them. As has been said, stick to one realistic/ consistent rolling road for development.
No Stealth wheel figures displayed for the 3.2 as the graphing was used to display the previous visit vs. the recent visit. Glad to have your opinion and experience on the subject, it's supposed to be part entertaining, part informative simply based around the wide range of numbers you can see from garage to garage, and brand or type of rollers. This particular ABF is designed not to require very high rpm, it's ended up like the output of a 12v VR6 but from a 4 pot 😅 I will happily use a blend of the local dynos, CTG or hub dyno at Torque Developments depending on the application / activity. The hub dyno was not used here as we were comparing the estimated flywheel variation.
Thank you very much for your really detailed response, that's really appreciated to have your input. Very interesting to read the differences and the accuracy of the dynos through your own experience with these engines. Your last paragraph summarises things perfectly though. And that is what I can do going forward. Whereas Stealth had my figures from 2018, now CTG have recent runs and can pull those figures if I wanted to carry out some performance mods and can refer back. I hope you've enjoyed watching and continue to tune in. Thanks again.
@golfmk2 never a problem. Rolling road readings will vary a little, even accurate ones, engines are living breathing things, and pump fuel quality can change a bit, plus air pressure and density, but there definitely shouldn't be a 15-20hp difference. Most certainly will keep an eye out, you all obviously want to understand and learn and clearly like to analyse, but you can only figure out a path to move forward on with the right info from your testing.
The Quaife is an ideal road/occasional track use LSD and you can feel it applying grip to the wheel that needs it. As for the question, let us know your response to ABF16V and we may be able to help.
@@ABF16V narrow its the standard mk2 track with 16" wheels no spacers, axles are golf r32 mk4, they came with the 02m trans that i got, it fully twisted the long axle
@gianpierolg3563 the car on this channel is running an 02J from the VR5/V5 and standard Golf Mk2 GTi 100mm cup driveshafts, so... Yours is different and the issue is perhaps related to how much or how little freedom your axles/driveshafts have vs. the original installation
Awww man! I thought my mk2 scirocco 1.8t had 277bhp (stealth) and mk2 golf 8v had 125. I feel like a fraud now haha gonna have to confess to my mates now ! 😢😂
😂 That made me laugh! There's nothing saying that figure isn't correct, and so long as you're happy with how the car performs, that's what matters. There isn't really a 'right' answer, it seems as you can see by the three dynos we tested having such different figures.
@golfmk2 haha true! I guess if that stealth dyno does over read it means my engine is a bit safer than I thought and not being pushed as hard as is being shown on that dyno! It still goes like a rocket though so... I'm happy! Love the channel by the way! Thanks for the entertainment!
@vwfan373 that's a very good way to look at it. It's possibly given you a safety buffer without even realising it. What setup are you running on the Scirocco? We're big fans of them on this channel! And thank you so much for the kind words. It means a lot. 🙌
@golfmk2 that's how I am coping with the sudden drop in perceived bhp haha! It's just a 1.8t bam with a stage 2 map. I was an audi tech in a previous life so did the job myself, was a lot of fun! Iv got my stealth run on my chanel (only video). I love the bam but your golf has that amazing sound of the v6!!! Very jealous!
I only ever compare wheel power when using dynos as that’s what the computer software sees and then makes its own calculations for flywheel power.
I did enjoy the video, thanks for doing it.
That interesting to see. You may have noticed whp actually didn't differ that much between dynos, so perhaps that is the most representative figure, rather than a calculation?
@@golfmk2 exactly that, not a lot of difference in whp between dynos you visited.
I enjoyed that. Interesting, hearing what the Dyno Developments guy was saying. Highly knowledgeable. So what you absolutely must do now, is take Gumpert to Dyno Developments. No arguments.
Funny, watching Ben miming an explosion, when Gumpert was on the rollers.😂
Funny you should say that about taking the 3.2 to Dyno Developments... I feel as though there's some unfinished business! It would be good to speak to Mike there again too, he was really knowledgeable and very accommodating in having us there and also had a very impressive setup.
The thing with the 3.2 is it seems like it revs 500RPM more than you'd expect it to, so it does sound like it may explode when at those high revs!
@@golfmk2 unfinished business is what I was thinking. You'll have to go back.
The largest dyno I have seen to date, was at Harry Pounds yard at Portsmouth. I don't think the yard exists any more. The dyno was one used to test marine engines. It was massive.
I can imagine it even put the 1400bhp tested at Dyno Developments to shame... along with 10,000 lb ft of torque it likely produced!
Watch this space regarding a revisit to Dyno Developments...
Love the rev happy nature of the kr lumps with the larger inlet manifold, one of the best vw engines made imho.
I had a late tornado big bumper on koni t/a with Ronal LS 8x15's on ,bbs carbon steering wheel, votex centre console, loved that car.
Also baxk in the early noughties i had a mk1 with a much ported and flowed kr in , ashley 4 branch, mangoletsi inlet with some lovely brand new Weber 45's running 38mm chokes, it rev'd like billyo.
Would give e36 m3 evo's a hard time upto a ton.
Also ran the 1/4 mile back at the trl gti international in low 14 seconds on street tyres and no prep.
Was a quick little car
That's really cool! The KR really is a great engine and seems to respond really well to modifications, allowing to to rev so freely, as you said. 14 seconds on the 1/4 mile is pretty impressive!
Great video. On the mk1 me and my dad run, always feels low on power at the rollers we use, but is always great racing on track against people who say they have a lot more. The rollers are great for making sure it runs correct as you say, and then bull stops on the track
Thanks, glad you liked the video. You'd think at the track, underplaying the figures would make more sense. I remember a guy running a Sierra Cosworth coming up to see the ABF Mk2 in the pits, "it's turbo'd yeah?" Nope, have a look. (At the time modded standard single throttle inlet, stock cams) "Must be cammed then?" (Lifts oil cap) no, still on factory cams. He was hoping to see some power advantage I guess to be like aahhhh that's why it's quick 😅
Thank you! You've summed it up perfectly. The dyno is ideal for seeing how the car is running or what effect mods have had. The figure is pretty meaningless regarding actual speed, it's merely a reference.
Fantastic 😎 KR still maintaining a healthy herd in the under bonnet stables 👍👍 3dr little bumpers FTW!
I was really hoping you'd see this video!
Did you get similar figures out of it even when you owned it, or was it not taken to a dyno?
@@golfmk2 I seem to recall her making 153 at one point, with a K&N filter, but can't remember what year that was - 1995 maybe? (It's in the paperwork).
All this time later and it's lost next to no power. What a car! I've got a real appreciation for Alex's (formerly your) car.
Such a good watch. Thoroughly enjoyed it
Glad you enjoyed it! Hope you found it interesting too. 😁
Great video. I never trusted the Stealth dyno, nice to see the CTG one giving realistic results!
The figures I guess can be used for guidance and as a reference point if you continue to use the same one... or as a form of bragging rights. 😅
I had a MK2 GTi 16v in the early 2000s, It dyno'd at 155bhp@the wheels. It had cams, and a ported n polished head. It was a motorbike in 1st n 2nd.
The 16v certainly responds well to some head work! Can you remember where it was dyno'd?
That's quite a lot at the wheels! Was it converted to 2L ?
Stealth racing 👌👌 wouldnt use anyone else ! Number's are irrelevant to me, knowing Vince and John's years of experience is why I'd rather drive 2 hours than let anyone else map my cars 👍
Their knowledge of engines (VR6's in particular) is unquestionable and carried out the map on my very own 3.2. 6 years later and it's still going strong (aside from the unrelated electrical gremlin) And if you're repeatedly using their dyno to measure mods or for tuning then that is ideal, as the numbers are all relative to that dyno.
I’ve seen some places quoting that a “stage 3” on the R32 lump makes 290bhp. That consisted of a full exhaust, carbon intake and cams
I think that's perfectly feasible. With the de-cat (which you can do on the Mk2, due to age of vehicle), some tasty cams and a remap to suit then I reckon ours could achieve that figure.
Ben's ABF, for example, went from 180bhp to 200bhp with a set of cams and the map.
@@golfmk2 I kinda like that people still do NA builds. Turbos are cool but there is something about the raw induction noise of an NA lump
@chrishughes9339 I think you're right. I do enjoy the sound of a turbo flutter, but I wouldn't want to go huge boost, as I like the torque all across the rev range this produces. And Ben's ABF for that matter too.
Although... the idea of a supercharger sounds fun! Same torque curve, same noise, but with more induction! (But very expensive) 🥲
My old jetta 2.9 vr6 with schrick 260 ? cams ,intake ,exhaust ,throttle body ,amd mapped would regularly hit 170 @ wheels, almost everywhere.Sounded the mutts nuts though.
Which is pretty much what the ABF in the vid puts out. Not bad for a 4cyl. 12valve VR sounds the best 👍
Ooo I'd love to have heard that. There's a clear divide between 12v and 24v audio fans!
You now need to take G back to Dyno Developments 👀 Great video!
I feel as though I may need to scratch that itch! And if it's what the people want...
11:03 Why is the front wheel rocking like that. First time I saw that on a dyno
I think that's just the tyre under high load, as the ramping at Stealth seemed to load the cars greatly. That's what I can think of is the reason anyway.
Thanks for watching though. Did you enjoy it?
🔥🔥🔥🔥
The spitting flames is always a bonus! 😁
The estimated flywheel figures from all the
tests are a fair way off.
The wheel figures from the first dyno and
stealth look about right...ive seen countless
fairly std KR's make 112-114 at the wheels, a
tired one is under 110, a very good one
116-118, but only ever seen 2 up at that level.
Power losses...no FWD transmission looses
nearly 25%, figures of around 15% are the
norm, putting the KR around mid 130's, and
the ABF at 200...both very realistic. That also
puts the R32 at around low to mid 270's.
Torque figures are also off as the flywheel
figures are out a bit..figure on low to mid 160
being realistic on a mild spec ABF, you won't
see over 170ibft without a competition spec
on an engine dyno.
As for the last rollers, just like the claim that
tuning cant be carried out on an inertia dyno
is horse$hit so are the figures. There would
be something seriously wrong with the engine
in that spec that only made 155 at the wheels, a kjet injection 2ltr 16v will do that
with a ported head and mild cams. The circa
170 at the wheels off the other rollers is in the
right ballpark depending on the exact spec.
Also, 42mm throttle plates are good for around 230hp, so no restrictions at 200.
Stealth has always given generous flywheel
figures, but the wheel figures aren't far off,
and their tuning abiity is superb, particularly
with VR's and kjet...so a gain is a gain if the
wheel figures go up...but use common sense
with the flywheel figures. Didn't see any wheel
figures from the R32?...may have missed
them.
As has been said, stick to one realistic/
consistent rolling road for development.
No Stealth wheel figures displayed for the 3.2 as the graphing was used to display the previous visit vs. the recent visit.
Glad to have your opinion and experience on the subject, it's supposed to be part entertaining, part informative simply based around the wide range of numbers you can see from garage to garage, and brand or type of rollers.
This particular ABF is designed not to require very high rpm, it's ended up like the output of a 12v VR6 but from a 4 pot 😅
I will happily use a blend of the local dynos, CTG or hub dyno at Torque Developments depending on the application / activity. The hub dyno was not used here as we were comparing the estimated flywheel variation.
Thank you very much for your really detailed response, that's really appreciated to have your input.
Very interesting to read the differences and the accuracy of the dynos through your own experience with these engines. Your last paragraph summarises things perfectly though. And that is what I can do going forward. Whereas Stealth had my figures from 2018, now CTG have recent runs and can pull those figures if I wanted to carry out some performance mods and can refer back.
I hope you've enjoyed watching and continue to tune in. Thanks again.
@golfmk2 never a problem. Rolling road readings will vary a little, even accurate ones, engines are living breathing things, and pump fuel quality can change a bit, plus air pressure and density, but there definitely shouldn't be a 15-20hp difference.
Most certainly will keep an eye out, you all obviously want to understand and learn and clearly like to analyse, but you can only figure out a path to move forward on with the right info from your testing.
Gud vid 💯💥
Thank you very much. 👊
Dyno lottery lol😂
I kinda is! Gotta hope for that bonus ball! 😆
Based on your videos i installed the quaife lsd, what axles are you using, i installed r32 and the long one broke
Are you on narrow (Mk2) or wide track (plus axle e.g. Mk3 GTi/VR6) ?
The Quaife is an ideal road/occasional track use LSD and you can feel it applying grip to the wheel that needs it. As for the question, let us know your response to ABF16V and we may be able to help.
@@ABF16V narrow its the standard mk2 track with 16" wheels no spacers, axles are golf r32 mk4, they came with the 02m trans that i got, it fully twisted the long axle
@gianpierolg3563 the car on this channel is running an 02J from the VR5/V5 and standard Golf Mk2 GTi 100mm cup driveshafts, so... Yours is different and the issue is perhaps related to how much or how little freedom your axles/driveshafts have vs. the original installation
@@ABF16V thank you for your help, do you have any suggestions on how correct this issue?
Awww man! I thought my mk2 scirocco 1.8t had 277bhp (stealth) and mk2 golf 8v had 125. I feel like a fraud now haha gonna have to confess to my mates now ! 😢😂
😂 That made me laugh! There's nothing saying that figure isn't correct, and so long as you're happy with how the car performs, that's what matters. There isn't really a 'right' answer, it seems as you can see by the three dynos we tested having such different figures.
@golfmk2 haha true! I guess if that stealth dyno does over read it means my engine is a bit safer than I thought and not being pushed as hard as is being shown on that dyno! It still goes like a rocket though so... I'm happy!
Love the channel by the way! Thanks for the entertainment!
@vwfan373 that's a very good way to look at it. It's possibly given you a safety buffer without even realising it. What setup are you running on the Scirocco? We're big fans of them on this channel!
And thank you so much for the kind words. It means a lot. 🙌
@golfmk2 that's how I am coping with the sudden drop in perceived bhp haha! It's just a 1.8t bam with a stage 2 map. I was an audi tech in a previous life so did the job myself, was a lot of fun! Iv got my stealth run on my chanel (only video).
I love the bam but your golf has that amazing sound of the v6!!! Very jealous!
@@vwfan373 ah but your car makes choo choo noises, which mine can only dream of! (bar coming into a small fortune for turbo conversion!)
And people think the peak bhp matters
It's ALL about that area under the curve, for usable power.
Peak BHP is literally just for willy waving. 😆
crossover isnt at 5250RPM somethings wrong there...
What you see is what you get with the video, which was the purpose of it. The dynos all have significant variation.
Not entirely clear which one you mean, but it only crosses if it's in hp to lbft at 5250rpm
🥰💪🏻👌🏻