Something that I had seen mentioned was that the arm Jinx gave Sevika actually makes a lot of sense from a character standpoint regarding Sevika as well. Sevika has been shown to have a gambling addiction/habit, and we also know that Jinx has fought Sevika (and won), and she would know why. In fact, up until this point in the show, I believe that Sevika loses almost every fight we see her in. It's because she's predictable. By making her an arm that by its very nature is random and unpredictable, Jinx is actually helping Sevika fight better since her opponents now have a tougher time knowing what she'll do next. Plus she like to gamble, sooooo......that's cool too.
that's so trueee- i feel like it doesn't make sense that they're on good terms though because in season 1 sevika got presumably tortured by jinx- a lot of these dynamics rely on visual storytelling that is not supported by anything else...
Re: Maddie's introduction: Maybe it wasn't quite enough, since it seems many people didn't notice, but I like Maddie's introduction because most people see "literal ray of sunshine, Maddie" but she's also... blocking out the light. She's backlit, rather than being shown lit up from a ray of sunshine. IE: Not all she seems. More of a visual way of showing that about her, instead of a dialogue way. Also, who's to say she wasn't planted by Ambessa from the beginning? She'd be a very new recruit in that case. Ambessa may have manipulated Maddie's way onto the taskforce, same as she did the attack at the memorial ceremony to begin with. I interpreted Maddie as Ambessa's insider on the Enforcers on rewatching. It was WEIRD to me how quickly she started copying Ambessa when Caitlyn was essentially appointed DeFacto leader of Piltover by Ambessa. Edit: Yeah, it probably was too subtle, y'all are right. I noticed it, but it might be because I like to draw, so I love when lighting = symbolism.
The trasition of dialogue that you mentioned about calling off the invasion makes perfect sense. Actually it highlights the fact that Vi and Cait at this point have diverging priorities, and eventually will clash or drift apart. Cait's path is going from a neutral pacifist, to wanting to avenge her mother, to loosing direction of her rage and spilling it all over Zaun. Vi, whose arc is about being torn between Piltover and Zaun, is coming to terms with the fact that in this complicated conflict she is not willing to do whatever it takes or turn her back on her city. That's why while Cait is fuming about the attack, Vi is trying to act supportive. But her mind is split just like her loyalty. She sees where Cait is headed to, and her only real preocupation is to pull Cait out of it. Her switch to ask Cait to call off the invasion is meant to feel abrupt, just like it felt to Cait. Cait is meant to feel betrayed, like she is about to start a war and cannot count on Vi being on her side.
@@aprilbeson2073 You say spilling it all over Zaun, but wouldn't that mean her agreeing fully with Ambessa or making a full scale invasion? Cait seems much more sane than the fandom portrays or the show failed to have her "villain arc" like some say.
I do agree that it makes a bit of sense for it to feel abrupt, though I think with some more emotional continuity between the two we maybe could have had both? I imagine we could have seen both the strength of their connection as well as the ways it is starting to break down in these crucial moments. This scene has a similar abruptness to when Cait asks Vi to become an enforcer, and Vi is just shocked and angry in her initial response. The disconnect is also meant to mirror Silco and Vander's relationship, (Caitlyn especially is stylized to look like Silco in several scenes) so those larger ideological conflicts are another layer of difficulty for the writers to pack into these moments. Very tricky to have these characters feel deeply connected and yet deeply opposing each other at times, too.
I realized while you two were talking about Jinx and Vi being in each others shoes that it is a parallel to season one, specifically with Silco and Vander. Silco saw Vander as the monster for turning his back on him and Zaun for a daughter. It wasn't until he had to give Jinx up to achieve Zaun that he realized why Vander did what he did and it made him forgive the monster.
Oh wow great point. Weird how then in a sense from the audiences perspective we are seeing Silco and Vanders forgiveness after that set of events (even though it’s in a different universe). Love that parallel thanks for bringing it up
Another cool thing about the arm Jinx made for Sevica, that Schnee pointed out in one of his videos, is that Sevica loves to gamble and is often seen doing that in season 1. So Jinx actually put thought into what Sevica will like and you can see her getting hooked on that gambling aspect more and more throughout the fight :')
To be fair there were a lot of cut scenes that were supposed to be in the show that would've gave more context and depth to the characters. It's just that they were restricted to having each episode to be ~40 minutes per episode. Especially more scenes with the Timebomb ship (Jinx and Ekko).
It’s also weird how some things just… happened. Like, we don’t dwell in Caitlyn being a dictator, or Vi as a pit fighter in despair; they’re montages and we move on. I also wish they wouldn’t be putting characters on the backburner until they’re “needed”; it especially means that for instance, Ekko and Heimerdinger actually working together in the last season finale doesn’t really get delved into and they’re conveniently zapped away… Would be interesting to see their perspective on a few things at least like Vi joining the Enforcers (in the game Ekko considers her a traitor to Zaun for that). And again, Cait is sent into a dark place but there’s no time to actually pick her actions apart. Too many thoughts, not enough words to break them down. Sorry…
Honestly my biggest gripe is how dirty they did my girl Vi. She seems so much flatter and one dimensional in season 2. We never talk about her time in prison or how shes lost everyone. So many little things. All in all i gotta love it tho
Yeah its strange how she seems like who arcane would "choose" as the main character (if they had to) but her change wasn't the one that we all latch onto as much 🤔
@@FrameOfMindBros it's my opinion that Vi was never supposed to be the main character. It was always Powder/Jinx's story. I know Vi has a rabid fan following, but from a literary standpoint, it's simply not her story.
Great, really thoughtful commentary again. I really enjoyed the discussion on Warwick, because when I first watched the series, he didn't quite click with me either. In addition to everything else you say about him, I think he also plays an important role in reflecting the role reversal between Vi and Jinx. To me, episode 5 is all about reversing who the "villain" is, and in so doing, leveling the playing field between them. In season 1 it was Silco and Jinx. In episode 5, Vander is a monster. And in his flashbacks, we see him grappling with his guilt over the failed rebellion, and what he did to Silco. And Vi is in this really aggressive, dark spot. She's entirely lost as a person, she doesn't have anyone to take care of or be the protector for. And she's really getting to know Jinx as a person for the first time - not as a villain, and not as a baby sister to take care of, but as someone who is capable, and able to do good, and have loving relationships. And she struggles with that. And incorporating Vander and Silco's story in there really sells the importance of forgiveness, and the possibility of forgiveness. If Vander was willing to patch things up with Silco, then is there even such a thing as a point of no return for Vi and Jinx? The final fight in that episode between Vi and Warwick is also really great. Like earlier, Vi asks Jinx why she came to get her, because Jinx doesn't need her. And the first time in the episode that Vi is really able to show clearly that she still cares about Jinx is when Warwick attacks, and Vi has to fight to defend Jinx, she can do what she's comfortable doing again. But Vi can't punch her problems away, and to deal with Warwick, she needs to take a leap of faith, and trust Jinx, and she needs to stop fighting. It recalls that scene in the first episode of season 1 where Vander tells Vi that fighting isn't the answer to her problems. While for Vander/Warwick, he's able to really see Vi for the first time, he's able to see the girl that he broke his promise to fight for Zaun "through blisters and bedrock" for. And he stops fighting again for her. I just think it's really lovely. I also really love Isha and what she represents, but I never quite conceptualized her as all the good things about Jinx, so that when she dies Jinx has to decide if she has to carry that forward. That's a really good way of putting it. And yeah, I'm crying over Isha too. On the topic of Jinx's sacrifice, even if she's alive it is still a kind of death and a sacrifice, a death of Jinx-as-Jinx, her giving up her old life and relationships and everything she knew in the world. I think the scene of her falling is also reminiscent of being underwater: the weightlessness of being mid-air, the way her tears float up like bubbles. And drowning and rebirth have always been connected in the show. Great discussion, I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts!
Love the insight, there's so many beautiful interwoven elements when you begin pulling things apart and making the connections with different plot points that feels it really shows what makes the series great. All this interweaving feels like its what gives the show it's strength 😁
Thanks for this vid. I love how you’re more nuanced and critical but in a good way. I’ve seen a lot of videos that just bash everything about season 2. But I believe that it’s still beautiful despite its many flaws and that it was very much needed. I also loved jinx’s character arc and that elevated the season as a whole for me as she’s my fave character. I wish people would just stop bashing everything and take a more nuanced approach like this.. great work guys.. defo need more subs!
@@FrameOfMindBros 😂 keep at it.. while we all may not agree about every detail, that’s ok. And it’s good to have conversations about it. For me. This show will go down as one of the greats. Even with season 2.. maybe even especially because of the addition of s2. I was just more emotionally invested despite the flaws. I think it was mainly due to the characters I loved being badass. Especially when jinx entered in ep9..
Jayce staying with Vik is also Jayce taking Mel's advice from s1. Viktor is a big believer in destiny. Mel told Jayce "we can't change what fate has in store, but we don't have to face it alone". Re: the big hero... Jayce was sent back by Vik with a chance to win but an expectation to lose. Ekko shows up with a do-dad Vik couldn't predict = Ekko saves the day with Heimer and Powder's help.
@FrameOfMindBros I like s2 enough that the things that frustrate me _really_ frustrate me. Why did Mel not come back pregnant? I thought creating new life was the whole point of the scene mirroring the hex core drinking blood with the councilors being amorous. The way Mel crosses her hands over... something... when fake Keno talks about birthright. It would have been a great visual clue about how much time she had been practicing with her new bag of tricks before arriving in Piltover. It would also add greater cost to Jayce's sacrifice while giving him a legacy. Ugh.
Huh, the other thing I just realized from the Mel scene was the visual Vik = mage clue. When Jayce says Viktor saved his life once he rubs the old crystal shard.
@@blacktigerpaw1 There are alternate timelines where Jayce does die and never gets the chance to invent hextech. That's the universe Ekko and Heimerdinger traveled to, lol. As for future AT Viktor, he obviously came from a timeline where Jayce did invent hextech. In that timeline, Viktor pursued his vision of a "perfect" humanity, which ultimately led to humanity's destruction. As he says, "There is no prize to perfection… only an end to pursuit." So future AT Viktor’s goal wasn’t to stop hextech from being invented, there are already alternate timelines like that. Instead, he wished to prevent an alternate version of himself from repeating the same mistake he made, and for this version to understand the beauty in humanity’s contradictions and imperfections.
One of Jayce’s and Viktors symbolism is also the butterfly, which appears first in s1 when Jayce was saved by the mage and reappears in many scenes between Jayce and Viktor. The insect itself but also patterns of the form of a butterfly. One it can be a reference to the butterfly effect. One action causes the next, consequences after consequences. second, since many artist of the animation team in fortiche see these two characters more in a romantic sense, hope, rebirth, love and beauty. Which are topics that Jayce conveys to Viktor in order to make him realize the fault of his ways: that Viktor is not broken, but Jayce sees beauty in his imperfection, admiration and love to choose to leave with Viktor :to throw his hextech dream, his former entire life away to have his partner back. People saw it as a subversive story of the phantom of opera (also thanks to the opening with the white mask in the hands of Viktor) : the mask of the monster needs to be chattered to reveal the truth, but instead of Jayve (the love interest) running away and flee from the monster, Jayce sees the beauty behind the mask and stays.
@blacktigerpaw1 nah won't answer all of that you just need to chill and be less rude. And just so you know you are not smart for pointing out flaws in the writing when someone points out an aspect of the story they like. You are just bitter
@@Nanago-lf1ljhow calling bad writing what it is - bad writing - makes you bitter? you can like it all the same, but that doesn't change the objective inconsistency of the plot. And there was no rudeness whatsoever in the comment above, answering someone's constructive criticism (it's not even that long, half the size of your own comment) by basically calling them overly emotional and "need to chill" however...looks like rudeness indeed
@@tserln1149 Nah, Blacktigerpaw1's comment does come across as rude. And honestly, I don’t see where you’re finding bad writing in the scene between Viktor and Jayce. Maybe the way you interpret the scene is different from mine? But here’s how I see it: when Jayce says to Viktor "You were never broken. There is beauty in imperfections" he’s not brushing off Viktor’s illness or pain. Instead, he’s acknowledging that Viktor’s struggles and imperfections are a part of what makes him extraordinary. And the fact that Viktor is terminally ill gives Jayce’s words even more weight. It’s not about pretending everything is fine, it’s about showing Viktor that, despite everything, he is enough just as he is. For me, what Jayce says to Viktor is incredibly meaningful and can absolutely be seen as a confession of love, in the truest and most profound sense. Jayce is telling Viktor that he values him completely, for everything he is and has always been, flaws and all. If that’s not love, then honestly, I don’t know what is.
@@Nanago-lf1lj I think the butterfly really fits with Victor who literally had the cocoon phase and transformation. He even had it twice, once at the start of S2 when Jayce put him in the hexcore to save his life, and then again when they transfused him with Warwick’s blood. And in that latter one, it actually looks like a cocoon.
1:09:33 the small detail the Isha hold the gun to Vi and immediately just makes continuous eye contact with Jinx was something that I picked up on immediately and it broke my brain for hours. Isha had no idea what would happen. But if it happens to Jinx it happens to her too.
You got one guy doing the (apparently) wrong thing for the right reasons and the guy doing the (apparently) right thing for the wrong reasons. Absolute classic!
The thing you said about Eco's natural character development is exactly what is shown a movie that was released last year, called Poor Things. There, the protagonist, a girl in with the body of an adult and the mind of a child goes through some hell of character development and changes completely discovering people and the world on her own. That way, if you finish the film and start rewatching it from the beginning, she seems like a completely different person, although while watching the film it passes unnoticed from our point of view.
That sounds really interesting and a little too relatable as someone who kinda didn't exist socially due to depression and social anxiety and is doing a lot catching up now 😅I'll check that out for sure!
Don't worry about the Cinema Therapy comparisons; I've been a fan of their for years and I can say you're doing your own thing enough that it doesn't matter! I see inspiration (even though you didn't know about them prior to starting the show lol) as opposed to imitation! Besides, as Curtis said - to quote the Ecclesiastes - "There is nothing new under the sun". So don't worry about it!
Great episode guys! Good to have you back in the feed. For what it's worth re: Cinema Therapy, I found the few episodes of theirs that I watched very "we are a film maker and a therapist and here are our impressions on x thing" with some talking on what characters feel like they have conflict and which feel more resolved and why they like those things. But it still felt a bit surface level impressions based to me (no shade to them I think they do a great job at what they do). Whereas I feel like the two of you really deep dive into how therapy practices, techniques, or terms show up in film making and enhance the story and characters alongside film making techniques and practices. You guys really get into specifics on camera angles, placement, composition, character motive, trauma etc and I really love listening to how you interpret those specifics because I usually miss those things even when I'm really looking for them. Please keep leaning in on that because I feel it's your biggest strength as a channel. I know Cinema Therapy has a Patreon with longer episodes so maybe they do what I'm talking about there, but I feel you two have really carved out a specific spot for yourselves that doesn't feel reductive to them. Cheers!
Aw man, thanks so much for your encouraging words Daniel! It means a lot 🙏 Haha we're more than happy to be the "deep dive" guys for people who dig that kind of analysis 😁👍
By coincidence, I just watched the previous video as you were premiering this one. I really enjoy the philosophical/psychological analysis you get into when it comes to character profiles and how even artistically framing shots a certain way is important to the story. You guys have a really keen eye for these things. I think I was a little lukewarm on the ending, maybe still processing what I watched since I only finished it last night. After hearing your thoughts on some things that I had trouble putting into words, I think overall I really did like S2 and I'm really impressed by the immersion of the series overall. Definitely gonna rewatch it soon with a new frame of mind :)
Thank you so much! 🙏 Never a bad thing to come back when some time has passed to see if things feel any different 👍 we definitely had some thoughts and opinions that simmered in the background for a couple weeks that changed how we viewed the show
I only found your channel about a month ago (don't remember how I found it), but this is exactly the kind of content I love. A long discussion, really digging into a topic topic and not just going surface level. I really enjoyed this one and your last Arcane discussion, you pointed out a lot of details and connections I didn't put together myself. A great deep dive like this is perfect for re-watching the show now with more to think about and mull over.
I didn’t expect to sit through the entire video, but your analysis was so insightful and eloquent that I had to. One more thing about what makes Jayce’s experience in the alternate reality work narratively is that he gets to experience hardships similar to what Viktor had to go through as a shunned cripple from the undercity. Before this, he was outspoken and popular while Viktor was not, and their bond was shaken when he called people from the undercity dangerous. All that time spent with a broken leg in isolation made him empathize with Viktor in a way that he wasn’t quite able to before, and I believe it was a crucial factor in his ability to help Viktor in the end. This seems to be a common theme with Arcane characters, people having to see things through each other's eyes in order to reconcile.
100% agree, that's a brilliant way to put it. And it's cool how the writers include such an obvious visual connection between the characters with an injured leg, but because of the context they provide for how it happens to Jayce, it's subtle. They don't throw it in your face like "HEY, THIS IS JAYCE LEARNING TO EMPATHIZE WITH VIKTOR BECAUSE THEIR LEGS ARE THE SAME NOW!!!" 😂
Singed picked Vander NOT for indomitable spirit, but life force, will to live, will to fight. Vander was a larger than life figure admired by Zaunites, thus the statue of him they made! Singed made a bet that Zaun's most admired fighter would be fertile ground for experimentation and he was right. Honestly what I bought the least from this was that I think Singed said he didn't figure out how to harness Warwick, but I would've thought that of all people, Singed should've guessed faster than anyone that what kept Vander's spirit going was Powder and Vi. It's unconvincing that SINGED wouldn't guess that another man's weakness is his daughter. But who knows, sometimes humans fail in self perception!
I missed the chat so here are some of my thoughts hahaha Regarding Singed keeping Vander to experiment on feeling a little like a deus ex machina, I believe he did that because Vander showed in s1 e3 that his willpower was strong enough to break through shimmer's effect on him and keep his wits, because between attacking Silco and protecting Vi, he chose to protect! Singed has always had an interest on "changing human nature" and Vander showed the most promising mutation with shimmer. And, you know... "the mutation must survive". That said, I absolutely agree that the issues I felt with the second season revolve mostly around missing character beats that would show on screen their evolution. Season one felt more character oriented to me, and this season felt overall more story oriented in a way? I also missed seeing some things on screen like Ekko going back to the Firelights, who thought he had died... Ah well, I agree with you that it was a flawed season, but still an overall masterpiece of a show. Lovely listening to your insights!
Your observation on the kintsugi reference is so on point! In fact, that same reference makes an appearance somewhere else too: as a fun fact, the artbook explains that the evolved automatons' design was also inspired by kintsugi and that whole idea of highlighting the imperfections in a thing that has been fixed. The amount of detail and thought that went into this show will never cease to amaze me!
You’re absolutely correct right here. The missing beats, also generally trying fit it all into a 40 minute runtime on average was no way to handle multiple plot lines. Those missing beats (imo) were super easy to incorporate even if it was just one scene or two. Even then though, some of the decisions with how they handled the episodic structure like episode 7 shouldn’t have taken all that time to establish things, when the audience anticipates other plot lines or character growth, like with the finale of episode 6 being picked up 2 episodes later. It’s why episode 7 is regarded as one of the series best episodes, because it felt grounded and actually had proper character growth, a familiar feeling to season 1 Also you made probably the most logical understanding of why Singed kept Vander I’ve seen to date, and people have been questioning this.
Everything in arcane i find has meaning to another character and moment(triple meaning) Like nothing is more undoing than a daughter! Vander silco and ambessa.
@FrameOfMindBros so many layers. Like sherk says, onions have layers. People have layers u got peel to c what, who they are. Just such inspiration of story telling.
Something I thought about with the alternate universe is that Vi is the real jinx... with Vi dead and gone all of those other characters were still alive all the pain and suffering never happened. But with her alive it causes so much of the problems. Just a thought. Let me know what you guys think.
I was waiting for you guys to connect the quote about imperfections with the show's own imperfections, I'm glad you did! The beauty of it, I think, is precisely that the show and it's characters are all imperfect, be it by design or happenstance. The loneliness Jordan percieved in the world of "Wizard Victor" was a loneliness caused by a lack of connection, yes, but it was also the lack of possibility after "all the puzzles are solved". Viktor was left with nothing further to imagine or create, without anyone to see or create with him. And it is perhaps why "only Jayce" could understand this, as they're both characters driven by knowledge and science, both extremely curious and creative individuals with both altruistic and egoistic intentions inside them. As the creator of his own perfect world, after turning completely perfect himself, Victor realized he was only left with a shell of a creation, without his and anybody else's human input (a clear nod to the dangers of artificial intelligence) What Fortiche created was not only a show filled with themes of love in all its forms, the meaning of being human or being a monster, what's true revolution and progress, ambition vs greed, and so on. But they also made a show that by being imperfect itself (because how else could it be, created by actual people), or the themes themselves posing more questions than answers, depending on the viewer you can take away a multitude of valid viewpoints. And to me that is art well done, because the paintings we love the most aren't usually the ones that took more skill, but the ones that we were able to relate to, that were bold in their choices and vague enough to spark our own capacity for creation. Thank you guys for this video, can't wait for the next one 🔥
The "no prize to perfection just an end to pursuit" line struck me as self aware. They proved they could tell a perfect story last time (No S2 would have left it as one of the best tragedies ever). This time they went past the red line trying to deliver twice as much plot, and add twice the bespoke music, with a result that blew apart like Heimerdinger's episode 7 upgrades while still getting the job done. For all it's warts S2 still makes everything I've tried to watch since seem dull by comparison.
@@blacktigerpaw1 what I tried to say was that the show clearly tried to make us think and ask, "what is true revolution?" "How do we achieve it?" Same with the concept of progress. If you look at Heimerdinger's subtle plot you'll see the show trying to answer those questions in one way (how after he started to help people with simple things, he found he finally was living and pushing progress), but it doesn't have to be a fixed answer. All of the characters reach their own conclusions, different from eachother. Isha was also a figure of revolution. The whole point is that we don't know, but we need to talk about it. It's okay if you think differently.
Thank you for being the first analysis video I've seen that gives ample time to all the great moments in season 2. So many videos focus on the same 2 or 3 nitpicks, and it really gets old. Season 2 is still a great piece of television, and unlike many shows on Netflix, we got a real ending.
8:28 I absolutely agree with this. I also found it very odd that the season IMMEDIATELY starts with the aftermath of the explosion without setting up anything prior. My ideal flashback sequence beforehand would have been a conversation between a young Vi and Powder soon after their parents’ death. Powder would be singing the same song she sings on the bridge in S1:E1 reminding Vi of what they lost. I’d have loved to see her tell her sister something about how she’d make Piltover pay for what they did to them that day, reminding us of Vi’s unrelenting hatred for Topside, but also showing that Vi very much influenced Powder’s view of the world while growing up, thematic of “The Monster You Created”. Cut to the Enemy intro, then start the first scene of Season 2 where the roles have now been completely switched compared to the flashback scene. Powder ends up being the one to make Topside pay for all of it in the end while Vi ends up joining the enforcers despite what she used to stand for.
Wow that would have been fantastic! Yeah it's so surprising they chose not to do anything like that, I would have loved to see what all went on behind the scenes
@@FrameOfMindBros Same. I hope they do an Arcane: Bridging The Rift for Season 2 like they did for the first season so I can better understand some of their writing decisions, because I felt that they missed out on many obvious opportunities to further develop the characters or set the scene for future episodes. Like, I would have simply had Mel die (or taken by the Black Rose) in the explosion so that it can plant the first seeds for Jayce’s hatred of Hextech which then comes full circle in Episode 7 when he finally sees what his creation has done to the world. Also, by doing this, it now gives an opportunity for Jayce to reconnect with Caitlyn again when they’re talking at the park seeing as how they both lost someone dear to them in the explosion. Caitlyn and Jayce’s friendship wasn’t utilized at all in Season 2 outside of that one scene. And if Caitlyn were to, say, influence Jayce to allow her to start the oppression against Zaun as seen in Episode 2, it would make his falling out with Viktor make more sense since violence and suffering was never something Viktor wanted, especially not towards his people. Plus, now you finally have an explanation for Caitlyn’s sudden intrusion on the council members meeting at the end of Episode 1: Jayce got her the task force she asked for and gave her permission to crash in the meeting.
It’s interesting that you fellas were so let down by the first two episodes before episode three gets you back into faith; my personal experience was that the first Act was mostly solid - although the cracks were showing with the Hextech warp sending those three away, and how quickly we go into the half-baked Enforcer team finding Jinx - and while certain later episodes and sequences were great, they didn’t come together in a cohesive whole. One point that a lot of people felt - to the point writer Christian Linke admitted to it - was that Vi got shafted in favour of a lot of other characters getting to feel more developed; Linke’s response was to rage effect of, “Yeah, we wanted to focus on other characters so she didn’t have time.” I would say that Cait got this too, given that they wanted to take her into such a darker place but weren’t willing and/or able (in the time they had) to actually sit in that, let alone hold her feet to the fire… Or how much build-up Warwic had, despite ultimately feeling like a plot device rather than an interesting character direction to take Vander into… Or heck, Maddie and Loris feeling less-defined than amyloid and Claggor did despite technically being around 3 times as long; I found the former frustrating like a 2010s Disney twist villain (in that we get the reveal so late we don’t know how much of her personality is real), and the latter frustrating in that I wanted more of his friendship with Vi to be depicted so his death would hit more (I liked him more as a concept than a defined personality)… And yet, I do not hate anyone’s ending point in this story; rather, I think that a lot of them (both the above ones, but also say Heimerdinger, Jayce, Mel, Viktor) had their Act 2 development speed-ran to get to Act 3… Given the feeling that this series could’ve had three seasons to tell the same story, I came out thinking that as an overall narrative it has a rich 1st Act and a well-crafted 3rd Act, but a haphazard 2nd Act. Which is strange, and also not great because the middle of a Three-Act Structured larger narrative is where the MEAT of a story sits and makes the world feel real… Once again, individual sections work, the greater whole feels disjointed in a weird way. I only hope the writers take the appropriate lessons from this, and consider if they want to go breakneck like they did here in the future or instead just… sit in things more. Yeah, endings are hard, but speedrunning so you overcompensate for not having as much later material isn’t the correct answer I feel. For one point, as an ATLA fan I always wished that Zuko had more time with Team Avatar in Book 3. But I also recognise there’s not enough events happening to justify that; having say another 4-5 episodes in the last chunk wouldn’t have made the show better overall. So they held back on getting to his turn, making his progression into that place feel naturalistic; what time he gets after that is quality over quantity.
“The specimen must survive” Vander was a freak physically and mentally and Singed wanted to save him. Same reason Viktor, Singer’s apprentice, said he was worth risking his own life to try to save.
I usually like doing longer comments on videos like these, just to go against typical online comments which I find are a bit too short to really get a whole idea across. I just gotta say that you guys do a really good job at looking through a series as a whole and critiquing it in both the positive and the negative, while also doing something that I find most online reviewers try to avoid or limit, which is keeping the discussion as human as possible without immediately falling into more negative emotions like anger or frustration. I've been getting a bit tired of seeing media reviewers falling into that trend, and it's really refreshing to see you guys discuss media in a positive tone while still being healthily critical. So, thank you guys for that. If you guys ever feel like you're getting stumped for other series to look into, I think Re:Creators might fit your video style really well. I don't want to get too spoilery for it, but I think that it's messaging on a creators relationship with both their creation and their audience might be interesting topics for you guys to tackle. And, if it helps, you guys didn't remind me of cinematherapy at all when I found you guys :D
It's an interesting point tying the Noxian principles of strength to Vander, Jinx, Vi and Isha, however I feel the perspective kind of ignores what the principles of strength represents in the greater universe outside of the Arcane show. Noxus is ruled by the Trifarix, which splits the power in 3, Darius The Hand of Noxus, Swain the Grand General and The Faceless one. Each of the Noxian leaders is tied to one of the principles of strength, Darius represents might, Swain with the demon of secrets Raum represents Vision and The Faceless one, who is presumed to be LeBlanc, represents Guile. What Ambessa was on about with Sacrifice was that sshe believe sacrifice should be one of the principles of strength, believing her to represent that principle, desiring to sit a top of the leadership in Noxus as a 4th ruler. I also believe that the upcomming Ambessa novel might shine some more light on this, but also this entire thing is messy because right now what is canon and not is somewhat up in the air especially since from what it seems Arcane takes place before Swain's rise to power, but the principles of strength were established by Swain when he created the Trifarix (Yes the principles are suggested to exist before through a single Mordekaiser quote, but the principles as discribed by Ambessa is what Swain established when establishing the Trifarix, I could not find any mention of Might, Vision and Guile before Swain and the Trifarix)
Been waiting for this one! Edit after watching the whole video: A few things I loved that you all talked about. I love your points about the dialogue between Caitlyn and Vi in episode 1. Such small changes could really have made it more impactful, and would have cost next to nothing to animate a few more seconds for characters to "take a beat" and digest dialogue. I think this is really the root of the opinions on season 2 being "rushed". Characters didn't get as much time as they did in season 1 to "take a beat" and let moments breathe.. I also love your idea of Caitlyn' character being defined by betrayal while her strength is her vision. That's a really cool parallel. Vi feeling some of the pain from Caitlyn that she inflicts on Powder in season 1 is a great catch. It's also the first time Caitlyn has ever hurt Vi physically after being a very gentle person towards her and the only person she could be safe and vulnerable with. I didn't pick up on this at all, and I'm glad y'all did. Finally, Ambessa's Strength, Guile, Loyalty, and Sacrifice tying back to the Vander and the family in episode 5/6 is really cool. I thoroughly enjoyed your discussion and look forward to more!
You made a great point about Jinx and Vi stepping into each other's shoes this season. When Isha was captured during the Zaun riots (thankfully surviving her encounter with Rictus), I think this gave Jinx a deeper understanding of why Vi left her behind during the Vander rescue mission. It wasn't just about bravery or capability - it was about an older sister's fear of losing the last precious person in her life. Through Isha's situation, Jinx could finally see that sometimes a person, no matter how brave or capable, can simply be too young to handle extreme and dangerous situations. This adds another layer to how cleverly the show puts each sister in situations that help them understand the other's past choices and perspective. Rather than explicitly stating these parallels, the show lets them emerge naturally through the story.
Amazingly insightful episode once again! Editing this through the technical difficulties must've been a nightmare but it truly came out incredibly polished and readable (watchable?). Totally resonate with everything that was spoken about -- from tempo (his golf swing is wild???) all the way back to the common thread of forgiveness. I definitely found myself thinking about the character relationships throughout S2 more. In S1, you could figuratively draw a line between any two characters who interacted and have a VERY clear idea of their dynamic, however nuanced. I feel like S2's dynamics were a bit more muddled, maybe with the exception of Cait/Ambessa. Still a top tier show and a top tier deep dive into it! "It goes back to the mushrooms!" will also be entering my daily vocabulary.
So glad you liked the episode! Yeah I resonate with your point about the clear character dynamics in S1 compared to S2, while at the same time loving how much depth and nuanced some of them ended up being by the end. Haha, and I never expected my mushroom comments to become daily vocabulary but I'm honored either way 😂
Loved the episode!! There were a few things from the show I thought were missing. Some scenes could have been shifted. To me they seemed attached on making parallels between season 1 episodes and the season 2 ones that we get ep 5 starts with Pitfighter Vi. I think it would have been cool to start with a flashback for Vander and him fighting as a human before cutting and showing us him stalking the mines as warwick looking for blood. Then go to Pitfighter Vi. It would have given us more time grasping that this is Vander. Caitlyn could have used a scene where she is confronted by Grayson's Statue and she hears "What are you shooting for Kiraman?" Going back to the first season and giving her a decent place where you see her waver before having her meeting Vi and switching sides.
Oooh that's a great idea for Caitlyn! A concrete motivation for her wavering, or at least a representation of it, probably would have really helped her character arc a lot 🤔👍
Loved the video, guys! I especially appreciated the discussion on Viktor as it helped formulate why I found the ending so strong despite there being a bit of a pacing issue(tempo?). The Maddie betrayal and black rose subplot were pretty weak in my opinion yet I still loved act 3. If you ever decide to have a guest on, I would suggest getting someone on with more of a musical background as that’s the only thing I felt like wasn’t mentioned in this video. Thanks!
Stoked you liked the video! Yeah I agree having a special guest with a musical background I think would be a phenomenal addition for a lot of pieces of media not just Arcane 😄 Once we can afford a 3rd mic we'll get on it 😉
Weird coincidence but, your first arcane video came up on my suggested right before you guys posted this and I was like “I wish there was a video about season two”, and then the premier for this video popped up, love the content!
One thing i think is interesting about the pacing/tempo/dialogue between Vi and Cailtyn is that I interpreted it as Vi and Cait being on super different pages, not knowing each other very well at all, but trying to communicate. It's clear to me that its awkward and incompatible at this stage. In the first clip around calling off the invasion, it almost feels to me like Vi is listening, but only partially, because she is waiting for an opportunity to share what she needs to say. She is also holding space for Cait who is experiencing a fraction of what Vi has experienced growing up in Zaun, and I think is trying to be compassionate but is also struggling a bit to truly give Cait the space because she has learned to move forward quickly when shit happens. Cait has lived a much more sheltered life, and I think Vi struggles to be patient with her in her processing, even though she wants to and really tried to be present. Its kind of like..yes this is bad and also we need to take action and stop things from getting worse. I also see how Vi is torn between supporting Cait and defending zaunites. Cait calls Vi's people animals, and Vi retorts in defense of them.
30:34 I'd argue that maybe Maddie was suggested by Ambessa which would explain why Caitlyn added her to the squad. That would also line up with her being revealed as the double crosser working for Ambessa .
I think it can be explained just by the fact that the squad are the people who faced down the shimmer tanks and survived, while other enforcers were either killed, or wouldn't know what they're up against. My personal headcanon is also that one of Vi's conditions for joining up was that the rest of the squad had to be people that she found trustworthy.
I think it just needed a couple more episodes to flesh out some stuff. It should have been about 30 episodes for all it was trying to do. That being said. I think it’s flawed but good.
"maybe even better than the first season?" That's a bit of a stretch. I won't deny the visuals, the sound, the music, score and voice acting are all on point. If you can look at season 2 objectively and stop allowing yourself to be manipulated by all the times season 2 tries to wring out the 'feels', there are a lot of narrative, character and dialogue problems that I refuse to hand wave in favor of spectacle, puppy dog eyes and tragic drama for the sake of drama. When you go back and watch season 1, you find little details that answers a lot of questions you may have had the first time or two. Events and character decisions become more explicable and well-defined. When you go back and re-watch season 2, there's a lot of things that seem to make less sense and have you scratching your head because you can't find anything to to explain or push the narrative. Season 2 fails to build off of what was set up in season 1, namely a brewing war between Zaun and Piltover in favor of dragging Ambessa and Noxus to the front and then all the random crap that happens in between. I think Warwick would've been better served if the story focused on Zaun and Piltover. He's the Hound of the Underground, the blood-thirsty protector of the Undercity. As it stands, Warwick was little more than a plot device to enable some sister bonding between Jinx and Vi and a field test to dazzle Ambessa so Singed could get what he wanted. It doesn't help that 4 key writers from season 1 were let go or left and were not involved in season 2 and it really shows. Even the first time watching season 2, I felt like focus on the story and cause and effect that was so well implemented in season 1 were lost. Instead, we got a lot of stylized music video montages glazing over the passage of time and scenes written solely for eliciting audience emotion rather than serving the Narrative. 'Blisters and Bedrock' is one of the worst examples of this as the flashback doesn't in any way tie into or drive the narrative and more importantly, it recontextualizes Vander and Silco in act 1 of season 1 to the point of making a lot of what they did questionable. It also changes Vander from a man who was not prepared for the consequences of his rebellion and making a conscious decision to drop his gloves and save the orphans rather than a man who just watched a good friend die and feels obligated to get Vi and Powder, whom he knows intimately based on the flashback in season 2, to safety.
@@charlestonjew7587 yes, I agree. The worst for season 2 for me was the emotional manipulation that is meant to cover for the inconsistent story, rushed character arcs and forced messages. For the same purpose we have the overuse of symbolism that also loses it's subtlety. The creators abandoned the grounded story and characters for the sake of not very subtle or particularly original message that we are being spoon-fed with by the writers.
@@doro55-q5d By the end of season 1, Mel was up there with Vi, Jinx, Viktor and Silco as my favorite characters. Then she's utterly wasted in season 2 by getting kidnapped, spending a whole episode in a prison, disappearing for 2 more episodes and then busting out a super-saiyan in episode 8, at which point she stops being Mel.
I think a lot of people misunderstood what the significance of the Piltover vs. Zaun conflict was in season 1. It's the setting, not the plot. The plot is the development of hextech/waking up the arcane. The war with Noxus ties all the character threads into this fight over control over hextech, and also incorporates the struggle between Piltover and Zaun. The Zaunites join the fight, but most of them join on their own terms, fighting with their own means. And the war doesn't erase the tensions, it's still there at the ends, as you can see from the scene of Sevika at the council. Also, Piltover and Zaun coming together to face an outside threat was foreshadowed in season 1 by Jayce and Silco's exchange about the two cities once being united to face outside threats. Not to mention by Powder's "friend across the river" song. I really think you need to rewatch "Blisters and bedrock". It's an exploration of Vander's guilt over giving up the fight. In the bar scene with Felicia, she basically says that they have to win the fight for Zaun no matter what, for the sake of her kid. "You two are going to figure this Zaun thing out. I don't care if you have to carve it out of the bedrock covered in blisters. You're not allowed to fail anymore. For her." But Vander *does* fail. He breaks his promise to do whatever it takes for Zaun, in order to look after the kids (who he also clearly knew beforehand, if you rewatch the bridge scene, they very clearly recognize each other.). The flashback shows how Silco and Vander were once united while also showing what will tear them apart - Silco is focused on the "whatever it takes - blisters and bedrock" part of what Felicia says, while Vander is already picking out baby names. It's a really underrated scene.
@@marissaolanick6104 Even if it means killing Felicia's kids? Silco was ruthless and was willing to kill Vander's (adopted family). I don't believe he would actively try to kill Felicia's kids. I've watched 'Blisters and Bedrock' numerous times and with each watch, it makes me hate that flashback more and more. It makes me have to do unnecessary mental gymnastics looking back on season 1. The recontextualization doesn't enhance or add depth to Silco and Vander's relationship. It just makes it confusing. Their falling out and relationship to Vi and Powder in season 1 was simple and effective. It didn't need any added layer of complexity just so the writers could wring out another emotional scene in a season already crammed with contrived 'feels'. Again, it doesn't add anything to or push the narrative in any way and only muddies the waters. Episode 5 of season 2 is probably my least favorite of the season. Sure there's a nice therapeutic moment where Jinx and Vi just kind of get everything out in the open in a sisterly fight but the pacing in the episode is the worst. A whole bunch of nothing happens. Jinx, Isha and Vi walk through an old mine. Mel spends a good portion just sitting around in an otherworldly prison, talking to her not-brother about the secret of her origin. None of the Black Rose story line interested me and ruined Mel's character, tbh because she went from a spectacular, morally ambiguous political strategist to a super-saiyan in like an instant, at which point I had zero investment in from there on.
@charlestonjew7587 why wouldn't Silco be willing to kill kids he knows? How is him killing Felicia's kids substantively different from killing Vander's kids? Everything in Blisters and Bedrock is geared towards making it possible for Vi and Jinx to rebuild their relationship on a new basis. There’s a great role reversal where Vi is at rock bottom, while she sees Jinx having her life a bit more together. She sees that other people see Jinx as a hero, she sees Jinx in a loving sisterly relationship. And she sees that things between Vander and Silco were more complicated than she knew. And if Vander wanted to patch things up with Silco, why can't Vi patch things up with Jinx? They go on this emotional journey downwards, after which they're able to build back up. Since the end of the first arc Vi has been dealing with her problems the only way she knows how, by fighting. And her first reaction to seeing Jinx again is to fight her, and she keeps her guard up the whole episode. Until Warwick shows up and Vi has to trust Jinx and let her guard down, and she's rewarded for it. While Vander/Warwick is being plagued by memories of his failures, of how he gave up the fight, until he sees the girl he gave up the fight for. It's a beautiful episode.
Btw on the fish enforcer - people loved him! Actually if you rewind and watch enforcers in battle, he is usually on the front line. You can find a few shorts capturing it, something like Thus one hidden arcane character is the most underestimated, or something like that
There is a debate in the scientific community that states there is no free will because of determinism. You say did we do a good job predicting of did the show do such a good job setting it up. I think there is hardly a difference, but would love to hear your takes on how narrative structure stacks this up.
2nd comment of the video but god damn man, right at the end u say the exact thing i have been thinking a bout for so long. the creators giver u the freedom to kinda make ur own story about jinxes death. If to you, the plotline of jinx dying is more important for you, she died but if the character is more important than she can be alive. So good!
I noticed the goggles thing (Claggo'rs goggles being used by both sisters) to be such a sisterly tell! These girls grew in poverty so I'm assuming lots of hand-me-down clothes and swapping shirts when possible. Stealing someone's gadgets is such a thing all siblings do-it felt really buttersweet
About Viktor, he was really helping people ,none of those people were really alive , thats why Jaycee didn't even hesitate to kill Salo. The moment Viktor came back to life he was like you guys said "the monster"
Just commenting as I am watching, but I find the time-displacement, dimension-traveling, scenes so fascinating. Looking at the principles and beliefs of the 3 "time-travelers" and seeing where and when it landed them in time, 1) Heimerdinger sent to the past because his "Frame of Mind" 🤣 is stuck in the past afraid of what could be, 2) Jayce being sent to the future because he wanted to bring a new age of advancement through Hextech, and 3) Ekko being sent to the parallel present because he is a person who fights for the people of the present (seen with his activities with the firelights). I want to bring to light though the unseen positive consequences of Heimerdinger being sent to the past and the contributions he made to the parallel world in bringing Piltover and Zaun closer together, something he had not done in his original world because he had not realized both the troubles and potential of Zaun, until he met Ekko. Which is why before Hiemie's death he mentions of how he "truly lived" since he has met Ekko, meaning he was no longer stuck in the past, learning how to live in the present. Heimerdinger is not just a great inventor, he is a founder of Piltover and has great authority. It is not something that is stated in dialogue, but something within the context and environmental storytelling. I love Arcane.
30:20 while I don't disagree with the little fixes you suggest, the reason those characters are the elite task force is because they were the heroes of the Memorial attack, They fought the Zaun Monsters until the Noxians arrived. Of all the enforcers they now have the most practical experience fighting Chem enhanced adversaries.
Also in season 1, Vander is referred to as a dog or a hound multiple times. Also in the alternate universe when Vi dies, everyone else lives, indicating that perhaps Vi is the real jinx.
@@ScurvyBird I can see why you’d maybe come to that conclusion but I think the point was that not one singular person is a “jinx”. They’re all just trying to live and falling victim to shitty circumstances time and time again. If you’d want to pin the jinx label on anything it would probably more so be piltover/zaun conflict and hextech for example rather than a person. Every problem can be rooted back to something and those two play a large part
Pretty sure Jinx was betting on her from the start, but I'll have to rewatch. Either way, Vi starts losing fights when she starts drinking to much and losing focus. It's not Jinx's fault Vi is a fuck up.
I believe the choice of the elite team was right since the one who chose them was Caitlyn who was a young person motivated by revenge and couldn’t see clearly who she was choosing and it was more of like who survived in the attack from Zaun and for Maddie, I feel like initially she was good but since she got involved in the middle of rebound relationship and couldn’t handle being a rebound, it drives her to hurt the person she wanted to love. Because of that, I wasn’t surprised when Maddie betrayed Caitlyn, you can see even in her eyes when Ambessa attack the tower where Caitlyn shooting from, Maddie got anxious (either she was worried about the plan or she wasn’t prepared to let Caitlyn go)
Sevika vs Smeech was my favourite fight scene as well! On top of the character beats that you discussed, the visuals were also incredibly cool and the music worked well with it - every frame looked like it was from a comic book. I was surprised you didn't once mention Mel and her kidnapping sideplot this entire video, particularly when you were discussing the odd pacing of the season - that would be my top choice for redistributing screentime. She was such a cool character but with very little payoff in the end. I also felt that the Piltover vs Zaun conflict was completely written out of significance to make way for the Glorious Evolution plotline, just as Vi was written out of plot significance this season despite arguably being the protagonist of S1. This might not be the specific parallel you were referencing when asking for other pieces of media in the Viktor discussion segment, but Arcane features too many references to the anime Puella Magi Madoka Magica to be coincidential: specifically in terms of character motivations, some of the Hexcore plot points, mixed medium animation styles (especially given the medium of Madoka vs Arcane), as well as some extremely key visuals. It is a short and digestible 12 episode long completed series (can't speak for the movies that I have never watched) and might make for a good video essay - I'm startled that there isn't one already that I could find. I also strongly suggest watching this one if you haven't, because of Curtis's comment about whether or not Old Man Viktor was the real hero of the story. (I describe Arcane to Madoka as "Madoka but it's steampunk and the protagonists are middle aged scientists instead of Japanese schoolgirls. FRIENDSHIP NO JUSTSU~) 2:04:08 One could argue that it was Ekko giving the tip to Vi to rob Jayce which started the plot of this whole series, because Jayce's lab would never have exploded had the kids not robbed him, and the events of Season 1 would not have occurred because not only would Powder not have gone on her downwards spiral, but Jinx would not have had the means to blow up the council room. By this same logic, Ekko can't be the hero because he caused everything to begin with! 😁
(more braindump from watching your video which you are not obligated to read but I have nowhere else to post it. I love all your videos so far because they provoke thoughts like these as opposed to simply asserting your personal thoughts and opinions as many video reviews do. Your channel deserves so many more subscribers for the quality of content you two are producing and I hope that this video blows up for you!) A common criticism that seems to be making its rounds on the internet is that the writing for Arcane S2 was lower in quality but elevated by the efforts of the acting, storyboarding, and animation teams. I am personally unaware of how rooted in truth this is, however some of of the evidence for this case includes the poor dialogue and pacing choices that you touched upon in this video, but also the fact that the entire show was hand animated (no motion capture used) with mixed mediums (2D, 3D, traditional drawings) with every second of footage taking a full day to create (source: documentary). Thich implies that each and every single detail on screen was put there deliberately, from minute character expressions, to small background details with hidden symbolism, to framing & cuts - I am inclined to lean into this particular criticism for those reasons, but also due to snippets gleaned from whatever we are calling the phenomenon where the show production team are interacting directly with fans via social media (rather than being restricted to panels, interviews, and press releases). An example of such elevation was how Jordan brought the specific method of Warwick's inclusion being a bit awkward in general (writing), but with Curtis's observation/feeling of his silhouette giving off Vander vibes for no particular reason (animation) giving the whole plotline more of a sense of completion than it would have otherwise (particularly if you were not a League player). The parallels between Ambessa and the Vander family unit were still there, but emphasized via animation choices (in particular, almost all of Vander and Isha/Jinx flashback montages were animated in 2D mediums). In my mindscape, the airship reference mentioned later in the video is also something I attribute to leaving high degrees of creative freedom to the storyboarding/animation team. In my uneducated opinion, some of the most impactful and memorable scenes in this season were those where the dialogue was minimal and the audience was left to just engage and experience without having to be shoehorned or explained at - you touched on a few of these throughout your video as well, one of which was the Vi pitfighter montage which managed to express so much in such little time with absolutely no dialogue (before it is punched in the face with abrupt pacing). I enjoyed your analysis of Isha, however many of the points you brought up in a good light are the same points that seem to get brought up frequently in a negative light - that she exists as a narrative framing device for Jinx but lacks character on her own, which is in contrast to all of the characters introduced in Season 1, no matter how minor. You vaguely touched on this when discussing missed potential of the other members of Caitlyn's war crimes squad but I felt it also applied to Isha. I enjoyed her as an extension of Jinx and I cried at the end of episode 6 along with everybody else, but she didn't feel very real to me at the end of the day.
I'm honestly always confused when people say they think the Piltover vs. Zaun storyline was dropped. This is a prequel, so the dynamics of the world itself can't change too much, so it was never going to be resolved. And the division is still there throughout the war - some Zaunites sign up to fight with Piltover, but most of them join the fight on their own terms and fight with their own means. And as we see at the end, when Sevika joins the council, some attempt at reform has been made, but the tension is far from over. It all rings very true-to-life for me.
@@torchide I think an important thing to consider is that writing is more than just dialogue, it's also deciding what will be communicated without dialogue, and trusting the animators/actors/directors to tell their part of the story. I also think a number of the problems highlighted in this video have more to do with directorial decisons than writing decisions.
@@marissaolanick6104 "This is a prequel" - I believe this is the context where our impressions diverge. I'm not deeply entrenched in Riot's lore (did play League back in 2009-2013 before they were trying to establish a multiverse and so much lore has been retconned) so I am consuming Arcane from the perspective of it being a standalone piece of media, which Season 1 did an excellent job of. I am not viewing this content as a single story told within a larger multiverse (maybe this is why I disliked the Black Rose subplot so much despite being a fan of Mel as a character) but instead as a complete narrative with nods to external references for the multiverse fans and easter eggs sequestered here and there, not necessary for understanding the plot but nice to have. I'm fully unaware of the dynamics of the wider world outside of what was presented in both seasons of this show, nor do I particularly care at this point because I have not been given reason to thus far; my personal disappointment with how this particular plotline was handled is due to the fact that this was the driving plot for the entirety of Season 1, but also arguably the key plot point that tied together Season 2 episodes 1 through 5. Focusing on specifically on Season 2 character arcs, it was what kickstarted Caitlyn's arc but also arguably Viktor's arc (which transitioned to becoming the focal point of episodes 6-9). Considering that after years and years of oppression, a failed riot at the start of Season 1, then years of slow deterioration via police corruption in conjunction with Silco's drug empire, followed by the entirety of Zaun being punished for the actions of one including being GASSSED IN THEIR STREETS, invaded at their non-violent rally, taking literal children into custody, then bringing a whole ass army to march straight through their doorstep and shoot their only doctor/Jesus, who was HEALING people from consequences of earlier said drug empire, through the chest, instantly killing hundreds of their own people at the commune (they were really brainwashed Arcane evolution dolls, but that was probably not the perception at the time). That long run-on sentence being said, I find the events of episode 8 difficult to believe, when Caitlyn and Jayce were attempting to appeal to Zaun for volunteers with some Zaunites actually volunteering. Yes, the occupation was ended, but I fail to interpret this as a concession made to assuage the public opinion - I see this as "o dang we need more soldiers to defend against Noxus we can't afford the manpower in Zaun right now" more than anything else. On top of this, they are declaring that they would abandon the outskirts of town to focus defense on the Hexgates - does that not directly imply that they are abandoning the defense of Zaun to defend only central areas of Piltover? Why on earth would any self respecting Zaunite volunteer for that, based on everything that occurred in the last 10 years of their world's history? As you stated, most of them join the fight on their own terms with their own means at the end - I found this a lot more realistic than the events of Episode 8 and I can see the return/unification of Ekko, Jinx, and Sevika doing a lot to motivate the undercity in that direction. I do agree with your statements about the attempts at bridging and tensions remaining with Sevika joining the council at the end and found that part to be realistic and a satisfactory ending. Thank you for the thoughtful responses and I hope this comment better helps to understand where I am coming from with these statements.
@@marissaolanick6104 on writing and dialogue - My earlier comment was parroting a lot of what I had heard online (take with a grain of salt) and my belief is that the best scenes produced are when everybody involved is able to express creative freedom and collaborate in an effective way.
Heartbroken that the last two videos have been on products I haven't watched, because I haven't been seeing ya'll in my recommended :/. Love ya'll's work!
@@FrameOfMindBros Only, and I mean genuinely only because you've recommended it, and it would provide context for your next videos, I'll do my homework.
I believe all the „flaws“ of Season 2 needs to be exactly like they are because they mirror the emotions and Personalitys of the characters at this exact moments. As for me all the „flaws“ offers me the option to Feel like the characters.
Love your discussions especially the ones I haven't thought of, like all those parallels and making me think of why a character might do or feel something not for plot reasons, but becquse it's their personality,which does end up affecting the overall ploy. Speaking of parallels, love to hear someone also see the parallels between Jinx and Viktor. I've always felt that there is a parallel between them way before s2 came out. Viktor's my fave so happy to hear you two like him as well, he's such a great character and got some of probably the best lines/quotes in the show for how it matches the every characters whole deal. Love the analogy and probably one of the best explanation of "pacing" issues some shows have. I noticed some of the similarities with Naruto, but Aot and evangilion I did not, so that's awesome. I encountered and watched cinema therapy first, but lemme tell ya, yes both your channels have similarities (watching media then analyzing it with cinema and psychology lens), but both of your channels presents ideas that's uniquely yours, which makes it great since you brought up things from different perspective from a seemingly same backdrop. Arcane s1 is, indeed, more cohesive, but what happen in s2 is definitely crucial. Despite s2 having issues, I find myself actually feel like S2 is what pushed me to actually LOVE the show. In s1, it's perfect and everything is clear, cohesive as what you have said, and I love it. S2 feels chaotic, there's a mess, I find myself questioning more, but at the same time feel more drawn in, I'm more invested and found myself distraught with what's happening in the story. And I LOVE it. Actually loving a show for me is when you can see and acknowledge all the flaws and blunders it did, but still find yourself ùuenjoying and liking it. Cue Jayce and Viktor's dialouge at the end cuz man... I felt that. ⁰ This is the 2nd vid I watched from this channel (1st being your 1st arcane vid, which I just recently watched cuz this 2nd part eas recommended). And I gotta say, I love it. Looking forward to the other series you'll be creating analysis for.
Not raising this as a disagreement per se, but I think the chaoticness of this season was part of the point. The relationship between order and chaos is something that comes up a few times. In season one, we saw science gaining mastery over magic, and in season 2, we saw the chaotic backlash of the arcane against being mastered. That''s obviously embodied in the anomoly the sucks in Jayce, Ekko and Heimerdinger, but I think it's also reflected in more chaotic elements being introduced in all the characters' storylines.
It's true 😄 I think Curtis was referring more to the general concept of trust / betrayal through both 2 seasons but 100% agree with you that Maddie's moment in particular was foreshadowed very well.
The last thing Vander saw was his daughter in danger. His will to live was therefore to be able to make sure that his daughters were safe. Is that not a compelling reason to want to live?
i loved this video! definitely one i will replay a bunch to fully hear your thoughts! your whole channel is cool, and since you guys are accustomed to watching anime, would love to hear an episode of Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End !!
To answe the question of why it needs to be Vander specifically as Warwick: the amount of shimmer Vander takes in S1E3 should have killed him. But something about Vander trying to protect his daughters pushes his mind past the deadly effects. That's what Singed specifically needs.
That Smeech fight is when Jinx stops breaking things and starts fixing them… Starting with replacing Sevika’s arm that she blew off in S1Ep3! The slot machine also made sense for Sevika bc Sevika was a gambler.
Check out the video “JINX & SEVIKA’S ABSURDLY FUN Fight Scene - 5 Things I Love” by Schnee. He breaks down the scene and why the slot machine was perfect for Sevika! Really cool analysis!
I agree the season starts was abrupt but it started with a trauma like the first season. The murders on the bridge vs the council. We see afterward the consequences of both in their respective season.
What do you guys theorize was different in this universe? Was it the acceleration rune that allowed the creation of Ekko’s Z-drive? The fact that in Jayce’s AU you can see Jinx’s air balloon smashed against the tower’s clock makes me think that the Z-drive was invented before (he would’ve had to safe Jinx in that universe as well). Would like to hear your theories!
I do find it interesting that you mention about the end of episode 1 when Caitlyn tells Salo that she's "a decorated officer" when there is actually no evidence of this because this tracks with Caitlyn's past behavior of lying her ass off to get what she wants. She forges Jayce's signature to have Vi released from Stillwater when, in fact, she wasn't even an active enforcer anymore. Later, in episode 7 of season 1, she tells Marcus on the bridge that she had proof Silco was involved with the attacks and behind the rampant spread of shimmer when, in fact, she had nothing of the sort. She had the hexgemstone and the word of a wanted criminal from the Undercity.
I LOVE episode 7 but am conflicted that they went into AU territory because they did not give foundational things any time compared to S1. Vi, Cait, and Jinx feel like completely different people. Cait completely loses her empathy and level head after literally saying Zaun needs healing; we basically fridged her mom, but if morals could switch LIKE THAT, then…. Every time one loses a parent they’d just flip to a different person. Vi has been through SOOOO much worse than the breakup with Cait and yet that is what makes her give up on Zaun entirely, she also never thinks to seek out Ekko which would have made the most sense? The gas is too unpredictable for me to see Vi actually being okay with using it in Zaun but sure… made a cool montage I guess. Jinx is MENTALLY ILL, but suddenly, because Isha falls on her head she is simply cured? I recognize there were things that had to happen but we didn’t see them so it comes across as cheap and unbelievable. Additionally, Isha is so obviously a plot device that I couldn’t even care for her like I would a character. These are only a few of the wtf inconsistencies I cannot excuse. Viktor being the mage raises more story breaking questions than makes any sense. If he was always the mage then why give Jayce runes at all? Also, couldn’t Jayce have shown Viktor where he was headed instead of being instrumental in his “evolution” by nuking him? Season 1 is a masterpiece and season two could have been if they’d only followed the beats they set up in season 1. It’s genuinely so disappointing.
I would say that Viktor, when he's in the comune, is absolutely NOT doing the right thing. He wasn't healing all those people, he was killing them and they were already hexcore automatons, they just seemed happy. Salo exemplifies this most. The whole show Salo was a power hungery rat bastard, and then suddenly he can walk again and he's nice and running errands for Viktor, something he would never do willingly before visiting the comune. Plus, when Salo/Viktor are talking to Jayce at the Hexgate core, you can see Jayce's breath, but you can't see Salo's. He's not breathing. He's already dead.
Hahhaha the ending of this video rules. Would be hilarious if they meta-manipulated the show and added imperfections to drive home the point that imperfections are beautiful 🔥🔥 And the idea that to forgive a monster, you must accept flaws! Genius!
On the other hand, all of the story line happened because Ekko gave the information to VI about Jayce workshop, so you can say he fixed sth that he caused in the first place😅
I love songs that bounce around all kinds of crazy time signatures, so maybe that’s why I didn’t mind the format switching! 🤣🤣 Check out the band Symphony X!
Some of the flaws are like. Hey. Let’s self project on to what we want to see in the characters. I notice that allot in criticism online just in general. Not just this show. It’s interesting at least a little bit. With this talk. There is some self questioning of the initial thoughts. Which I appreciate.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Something that I had seen mentioned was that the arm Jinx gave Sevika actually makes a lot of sense from a character standpoint regarding Sevika as well. Sevika has been shown to have a gambling addiction/habit, and we also know that Jinx has fought Sevika (and won), and she would know why. In fact, up until this point in the show, I believe that Sevika loses almost every fight we see her in. It's because she's predictable. By making her an arm that by its very nature is random and unpredictable, Jinx is actually helping Sevika fight better since her opponents now have a tougher time knowing what she'll do next. Plus she like to gamble, sooooo......that's cool too.
that's so trueee- i feel like it doesn't make sense that they're on good terms though because in season 1 sevika got presumably tortured by jinx- a lot of these dynamics rely on visual storytelling that is not supported by anything else...
100% true
Re: Maddie's introduction: Maybe it wasn't quite enough, since it seems many people didn't notice, but I like Maddie's introduction because most people see "literal ray of sunshine, Maddie" but she's also... blocking out the light. She's backlit, rather than being shown lit up from a ray of sunshine. IE: Not all she seems. More of a visual way of showing that about her, instead of a dialogue way. Also, who's to say she wasn't planted by Ambessa from the beginning? She'd be a very new recruit in that case. Ambessa may have manipulated Maddie's way onto the taskforce, same as she did the attack at the memorial ceremony to begin with. I interpreted Maddie as Ambessa's insider on the Enforcers on rewatching. It was WEIRD to me how quickly she started copying Ambessa when Caitlyn was essentially appointed DeFacto leader of Piltover by Ambessa.
Edit: Yeah, it probably was too subtle, y'all are right. I noticed it, but it might be because I like to draw, so I love when lighting = symbolism.
The trasition of dialogue that you mentioned about calling off the invasion makes perfect sense. Actually it highlights the fact that Vi and Cait at this point have diverging priorities, and eventually will clash or drift apart.
Cait's path is going from a neutral pacifist, to wanting to avenge her mother, to loosing direction of her rage and spilling it all over Zaun.
Vi, whose arc is about being torn between Piltover and Zaun, is coming to terms with the fact that in this complicated conflict she is not willing to do whatever it takes or turn her back on her city.
That's why while Cait is fuming about the attack, Vi is trying to act supportive. But her mind is split just like her loyalty. She sees where Cait is headed to, and her only real preocupation is to pull Cait out of it. Her switch to ask Cait to call off the invasion is meant to feel abrupt, just like it felt to Cait. Cait is meant to feel betrayed, like she is about to start a war and cannot count on Vi being on her side.
@@aprilbeson2073
You say spilling it all over Zaun, but wouldn't that mean her agreeing fully with Ambessa or making a full scale invasion? Cait seems much more sane than the fandom portrays or the show failed to have her "villain arc" like some say.
I do agree that it makes a bit of sense for it to feel abrupt, though I think with some more emotional continuity between the two we maybe could have had both? I imagine we could have seen both the strength of their connection as well as the ways it is starting to break down in these crucial moments. This scene has a similar abruptness to when Cait asks Vi to become an enforcer, and Vi is just shocked and angry in her initial response. The disconnect is also meant to mirror Silco and Vander's relationship, (Caitlyn especially is stylized to look like Silco in several scenes) so those larger ideological conflicts are another layer of difficulty for the writers to pack into these moments. Very tricky to have these characters feel deeply connected and yet deeply opposing each other at times, too.
1:32:32 Not only was Ekko a crucial player in the end, he gave the kids the tip on jayces apartment. He started and ended the show
I realized while you two were talking about Jinx and Vi being in each others shoes that it is a parallel to season one, specifically with Silco and Vander. Silco saw Vander as the monster for turning his back on him and Zaun for a daughter. It wasn't until he had to give Jinx up to achieve Zaun that he realized why Vander did what he did and it made him forgive the monster.
Oh wow great point. Weird how then in a sense from the audiences perspective we are seeing Silco and Vanders forgiveness after that set of events (even though it’s in a different universe). Love that parallel thanks for bringing it up
Another cool thing about the arm Jinx made for Sevica, that Schnee pointed out in one of his videos, is that Sevica loves to gamble and is often seen doing that in season 1. So Jinx actually put thought into what Sevica will like and you can see her getting hooked on that gambling aspect more and more throughout the fight :')
Okay now I need a crossover episode with Cinema Therapy haha 😂
If that ever happens it would be super fun 😊
YESS 😂❤
To be fair there were a lot of cut scenes that were supposed to be in the show that would've gave more context and depth to the characters. It's just that they were restricted to having each episode to be ~40 minutes per episode. Especially more scenes with the Timebomb ship (Jinx and Ekko).
It would be amazing to get a directors cut 🤩🤯
It’s also weird how some things just… happened. Like, we don’t dwell in Caitlyn being a dictator, or Vi as a pit fighter in despair; they’re montages and we move on.
I also wish they wouldn’t be putting characters on the backburner until they’re “needed”; it especially means that for instance, Ekko and Heimerdinger actually working together in the last season finale doesn’t really get delved into and they’re conveniently zapped away… Would be interesting to see their perspective on a few things at least like Vi joining the Enforcers (in the game Ekko considers her a traitor to Zaun for that). And again, Cait is sent into a dark place but there’s no time to actually pick her actions apart.
Too many thoughts, not enough words to break them down. Sorry…
Honestly my biggest gripe is how dirty they did my girl Vi. She seems so much flatter and one dimensional in season 2. We never talk about her time in prison or how shes lost everyone. So many little things. All in all i gotta love it tho
Yeah its strange how she seems like who arcane would "choose" as the main character (if they had to) but her change wasn't the one that we all latch onto as much 🤔
@@FrameOfMindBros it's my opinion that Vi was never supposed to be the main character. It was always Powder/Jinx's story. I know Vi has a rabid fan following, but from a literary standpoint, it's simply not her story.
Great, really thoughtful commentary again.
I really enjoyed the discussion on Warwick, because when I first watched the series, he didn't quite click with me either. In addition to everything else you say about him, I think he also plays an important role in reflecting the role reversal between Vi and Jinx.
To me, episode 5 is all about reversing who the "villain" is, and in so doing, leveling the playing field between them. In season 1 it was Silco and Jinx. In episode 5, Vander is a monster. And in his flashbacks, we see him grappling with his guilt over the failed rebellion, and what he did to Silco.
And Vi is in this really aggressive, dark spot. She's entirely lost as a person, she doesn't have anyone to take care of or be the protector for. And she's really getting to know Jinx as a person for the first time - not as a villain, and not as a baby sister to take care of, but as someone who is capable, and able to do good, and have loving relationships. And she struggles with that. And incorporating Vander and Silco's story in there really sells the importance of forgiveness, and the possibility of forgiveness. If Vander was willing to patch things up with Silco, then is there even such a thing as a point of no return for Vi and Jinx?
The final fight in that episode between Vi and Warwick is also really great. Like earlier, Vi asks Jinx why she came to get her, because Jinx doesn't need her. And the first time in the episode that Vi is really able to show clearly that she still cares about Jinx is when Warwick attacks, and Vi has to fight to defend Jinx, she can do what she's comfortable doing again.
But Vi can't punch her problems away, and to deal with Warwick, she needs to take a leap of faith, and trust Jinx, and she needs to stop fighting. It recalls that scene in the first episode of season 1 where Vander tells Vi that fighting isn't the answer to her problems.
While for Vander/Warwick, he's able to really see Vi for the first time, he's able to see the girl that he broke his promise to fight for Zaun "through blisters and bedrock" for. And he stops fighting again for her.
I just think it's really lovely.
I also really love Isha and what she represents, but I never quite conceptualized her as all the good things about Jinx, so that when she dies Jinx has to decide if she has to carry that forward. That's a really good way of putting it. And yeah, I'm crying over Isha too.
On the topic of Jinx's sacrifice, even if she's alive it is still a kind of death and a sacrifice, a death of Jinx-as-Jinx, her giving up her old life and relationships and everything she knew in the world. I think the scene of her falling is also reminiscent of being underwater: the weightlessness of being mid-air, the way her tears float up like bubbles. And drowning and rebirth have always been connected in the show.
Great discussion, I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts!
I'm looking forward to going back and watching some of your older videos now!
Love the insight, there's so many beautiful interwoven elements when you begin pulling things apart and making the connections with different plot points that feels it really shows what makes the series great. All this interweaving feels like its what gives the show it's strength 😁
Thanks for this vid. I love how you’re more nuanced and critical but in a good way. I’ve seen a lot of videos that just bash everything about season 2. But I believe that it’s still beautiful despite its many flaws and that it was very much needed. I also loved jinx’s character arc and that elevated the season as a whole for me as she’s my fave character. I wish people would just stop bashing everything and take a more nuanced approach like this.. great work guys.. defo need more subs!
Thank you so much! We refuse to let nuance die in the modern age, even if we're the only ones keeping it on life support 😅
@@FrameOfMindBros 😂 keep at it.. while we all may not agree about every detail, that’s ok. And it’s good to have conversations about it. For me. This show will go down as one of the greats. Even with season 2.. maybe even especially because of the addition of s2. I was just more emotionally invested despite the flaws. I think it was mainly due to the characters I loved being badass. Especially when jinx entered in ep9..
Jayce staying with Vik is also Jayce taking Mel's advice from s1. Viktor is a big believer in destiny. Mel told Jayce "we can't change what fate has in store, but we don't have to face it alone".
Re: the big hero... Jayce was sent back by Vik with a chance to win but an expectation to lose. Ekko shows up with a do-dad Vik couldn't predict = Ekko saves the day with Heimer and Powder's help.
That's such an awesome call back to Jayce's other significant relationship in the show 🤩
@FrameOfMindBros I like s2 enough that the things that frustrate me _really_ frustrate me. Why did Mel not come back pregnant? I thought creating new life was the whole point of the scene mirroring the hex core drinking blood with the councilors being amorous. The way Mel crosses her hands over... something... when fake Keno talks about birthright. It would have been a great visual clue about how much time she had been practicing with her new bag of tricks before arriving in Piltover. It would also add greater cost to Jayce's sacrifice while giving him a legacy. Ugh.
@@blacktigerpaw1 Haha, or go around killing other timelines' versions of himself. I'm happy to file that under "people do dumb things".
Huh, the other thing I just realized from the Mel scene was the visual Vik = mage clue. When Jayce says Viktor saved his life once he rubs the old crystal shard.
@@blacktigerpaw1 There are alternate timelines where Jayce does die and never gets the chance to invent hextech. That's the universe Ekko and Heimerdinger traveled to, lol.
As for future AT Viktor, he obviously came from a timeline where Jayce did invent hextech. In that timeline, Viktor pursued his vision of a "perfect" humanity, which ultimately led to humanity's destruction. As he says, "There is no prize to perfection… only an end to pursuit."
So future AT Viktor’s goal wasn’t to stop hextech from being invented, there are already alternate timelines like that. Instead, he wished to prevent an alternate version of himself from repeating the same mistake he made, and for this version to understand the beauty in humanity’s contradictions and imperfections.
One of Jayce’s and Viktors symbolism is also the butterfly, which appears first in s1 when Jayce was saved by the mage and reappears in many scenes between Jayce and Viktor. The insect itself but also patterns of the form of a butterfly.
One it can be a reference to the butterfly effect. One action causes the next, consequences after consequences.
second, since many artist of the animation team in fortiche see these two characters more in a romantic sense, hope, rebirth, love and beauty. Which are topics that Jayce conveys to Viktor in order to make him realize the fault of his ways: that Viktor is not broken, but Jayce sees beauty in his imperfection, admiration and love to choose to leave with Viktor :to throw his hextech dream, his former entire life away to have his partner back. People saw it as a subversive story of the phantom of opera (also thanks to the opening with the white mask in the hands of Viktor) : the mask of the monster needs to be chattered to reveal the truth, but instead of Jayve (the love interest) running away and flee from the monster, Jayce sees the beauty behind the mask and stays.
@blacktigerpaw1 nah won't answer all of that you just need to chill and be less rude. And just so you know you are not smart for pointing out flaws in the writing when someone points out an aspect of the story they like. You are just bitter
@@Nanago-lf1ljhow calling bad writing what it is - bad writing - makes you bitter? you can like it all the same, but that doesn't change the objective inconsistency of the plot.
And there was no rudeness whatsoever in the comment above, answering someone's constructive criticism (it's not even that long, half the size of your own comment) by basically calling them overly emotional and "need to chill" however...looks like rudeness indeed
@@tserln1149 Nah, Blacktigerpaw1's comment does come across as rude. And honestly, I don’t see where you’re finding bad writing in the scene between Viktor and Jayce. Maybe the way you interpret the scene is different from mine?
But here’s how I see it: when Jayce says to Viktor "You were never broken. There is beauty in imperfections" he’s not brushing off Viktor’s illness or pain. Instead, he’s acknowledging that Viktor’s struggles and imperfections are a part of what makes him extraordinary. And the fact that Viktor is terminally ill gives Jayce’s words even more weight. It’s not about pretending everything is fine, it’s about showing Viktor that, despite everything, he is enough just as he is.
For me, what Jayce says to Viktor is incredibly meaningful and can absolutely be seen as a confession of love, in the truest and most profound sense. Jayce is telling Viktor that he values him completely, for everything he is and has always been, flaws and all. If that’s not love, then honestly, I don’t know what is.
🤯 I totally missed the butterfly 🤦🏼♂️ That’s awesome!
@@Nanago-lf1lj I think the butterfly really fits with Victor who literally had the cocoon phase and transformation.
He even had it twice, once at the start of S2 when Jayce put him in the hexcore to save his life, and then again when they transfused him with Warwick’s blood. And in that latter one, it actually looks like a cocoon.
1:09:33 the small detail the Isha hold the gun to Vi and immediately just makes continuous eye contact with Jinx was something that I picked up on immediately and it broke my brain for hours. Isha had no idea what would happen. But if it happens to Jinx it happens to her too.
😭
Yall should talk about blue eyed samurai next!
That's definitely one we've got our "eye" on for a future video 😅
@@Omegateck16 I came here to say this! Lol
Yes!! Please do!!
Jayce being framed as a villain and Viktor as a hero is on purpose. Its great writing.
Agreed 😄
You got one guy doing the (apparently) wrong thing for the right reasons and the guy doing the (apparently) right thing for the wrong reasons. Absolute classic!
I'm so happy someone else finally called The Infinite Tsukuyomi reference. I thought it was just me lol. Great video!
Haha, yeah Curtis made a good call with that one 😄 stoked to hear other people saw it as well!
The thing you said about Eco's natural character development is exactly what is shown a movie that was released last year, called Poor Things. There, the protagonist, a girl in with the body of an adult and the mind of a child goes through some hell of character development and changes completely discovering people and the world on her own. That way, if you finish the film and start rewatching it from the beginning, she seems like a completely different person, although while watching the film it passes unnoticed from our point of view.
That sounds really interesting and a little too relatable as someone who kinda didn't exist socially due to depression and social anxiety and is doing a lot catching up now 😅I'll check that out for sure!
Don't worry about the Cinema Therapy comparisons; I've been a fan of their for years and I can say you're doing your own thing enough that it doesn't matter! I see inspiration (even though you didn't know about them prior to starting the show lol) as opposed to imitation! Besides, as Curtis said - to quote the Ecclesiastes - "There is nothing new under the sun". So don't worry about it!
Thanks so much! 😊❤️
Great episode guys! Good to have you back in the feed. For what it's worth re: Cinema Therapy, I found the few episodes of theirs that I watched very "we are a film maker and a therapist and here are our impressions on x thing" with some talking on what characters feel like they have conflict and which feel more resolved and why they like those things. But it still felt a bit surface level impressions based to me (no shade to them I think they do a great job at what they do). Whereas I feel like the two of you really deep dive into how therapy practices, techniques, or terms show up in film making and enhance the story and characters alongside film making techniques and practices. You guys really get into specifics on camera angles, placement, composition, character motive, trauma etc and I really love listening to how you interpret those specifics because I usually miss those things even when I'm really looking for them. Please keep leaning in on that because I feel it's your biggest strength as a channel. I know Cinema Therapy has a Patreon with longer episodes so maybe they do what I'm talking about there, but I feel you two have really carved out a specific spot for yourselves that doesn't feel reductive to them. Cheers!
Aw man, thanks so much for your encouraging words Daniel! It means a lot 🙏
Haha we're more than happy to be the "deep dive" guys for people who dig that kind of analysis 😁👍
By coincidence, I just watched the previous video as you were premiering this one. I really enjoy the philosophical/psychological analysis you get into when it comes to character profiles and how even artistically framing shots a certain way is important to the story. You guys have a really keen eye for these things.
I think I was a little lukewarm on the ending, maybe still processing what I watched since I only finished it last night. After hearing your thoughts on some things that I had trouble putting into words, I think overall I really did like S2 and I'm really impressed by the immersion of the series overall. Definitely gonna rewatch it soon with a new frame of mind :)
Thank you so much! 🙏
Never a bad thing to come back when some time has passed to see if things feel any different 👍 we definitely had some thoughts and opinions that simmered in the background for a couple weeks that changed how we viewed the show
I only found your channel about a month ago (don't remember how I found it), but this is exactly the kind of content I love. A long discussion, really digging into a topic topic and not just going surface level. I really enjoyed this one and your last Arcane discussion, you pointed out a lot of details and connections I didn't put together myself. A great deep dive like this is perfect for re-watching the show now with more to think about and mull over.
Thank you so much! Glad you found our little community of people who love deep dives and digging into stories 🤩
I didn’t expect to sit through the entire video, but your analysis was so insightful and eloquent that I had to. One more thing about what makes Jayce’s experience in the alternate reality work narratively is that he gets to experience hardships similar to what Viktor had to go through as a shunned cripple from the undercity. Before this, he was outspoken and popular while Viktor was not, and their bond was shaken when he called people from the undercity dangerous. All that time spent with a broken leg in isolation made him empathize with Viktor in a way that he wasn’t quite able to before, and I believe it was a crucial factor in his ability to help Viktor in the end. This seems to be a common theme with Arcane characters, people having to see things through each other's eyes in order to reconcile.
100% agree, that's a brilliant way to put it. And it's cool how the writers include such an obvious visual connection between the characters with an injured leg, but because of the context they provide for how it happens to Jayce, it's subtle. They don't throw it in your face like "HEY, THIS IS JAYCE LEARNING TO EMPATHIZE WITH VIKTOR BECAUSE THEIR LEGS ARE THE SAME NOW!!!" 😂
Singed picked Vander NOT for indomitable spirit, but life force, will to live, will to fight. Vander was a larger than life figure admired by Zaunites, thus the statue of him they made! Singed made a bet that Zaun's most admired fighter would be fertile ground for experimentation and he was right. Honestly what I bought the least from this was that I think Singed said he didn't figure out how to harness Warwick, but I would've thought that of all people, Singed should've guessed faster than anyone that what kept Vander's spirit going was Powder and Vi. It's unconvincing that SINGED wouldn't guess that another man's weakness is his daughter. But who knows, sometimes humans fail in self perception!
I missed the chat so here are some of my thoughts hahaha
Regarding Singed keeping Vander to experiment on feeling a little like a deus ex machina, I believe he did that because Vander showed in s1 e3 that his willpower was strong enough to break through shimmer's effect on him and keep his wits, because between attacking Silco and protecting Vi, he chose to protect! Singed has always had an interest on "changing human nature" and Vander showed the most promising mutation with shimmer. And, you know... "the mutation must survive".
That said, I absolutely agree that the issues I felt with the second season revolve mostly around missing character beats that would show on screen their evolution. Season one felt more character oriented to me, and this season felt overall more story oriented in a way? I also missed seeing some things on screen like Ekko going back to the Firelights, who thought he had died... Ah well, I agree with you that it was a flawed season, but still an overall masterpiece of a show. Lovely listening to your insights!
Your observation on the kintsugi reference is so on point! In fact, that same reference makes an appearance somewhere else too: as a fun fact, the artbook explains that the evolved automatons' design was also inspired by kintsugi and that whole idea of highlighting the imperfections in a thing that has been fixed. The amount of detail and thought that went into this show will never cease to amaze me!
You’re absolutely correct right here. The missing beats, also generally trying fit it all into a 40 minute runtime on average was no way to handle multiple plot lines.
Those missing beats (imo) were super easy to incorporate even if it was just one scene or two. Even then though, some of the decisions with how they handled the episodic structure like episode 7 shouldn’t have taken all that time to establish things, when the audience anticipates other plot lines or character growth, like with the finale of episode 6 being picked up 2 episodes later. It’s why episode 7 is regarded as one of the series best episodes, because it felt grounded and actually had proper character growth, a familiar feeling to season 1
Also you made probably the most logical understanding of why Singed kept Vander I’ve seen to date, and people have been questioning this.
Everything in arcane i find has meaning to another character and moment(triple meaning) Like nothing is more undoing than a daughter! Vander silco and ambessa.
It's like layers in a narrative cake, and it's delicious 😂🍰
@FrameOfMindBros so many layers. Like sherk says, onions have layers. People have layers u got peel to c what, who they are. Just such inspiration of story telling.
Something I thought about with the alternate universe is that Vi is the real jinx... with Vi dead and gone all of those other characters were still alive all the pain and suffering never happened. But with her alive it causes so much of the problems. Just a thought. Let me know what you guys think.
I was waiting for you guys to connect the quote about imperfections with the show's own imperfections, I'm glad you did! The beauty of it, I think, is precisely that the show and it's characters are all imperfect, be it by design or happenstance.
The loneliness Jordan percieved in the world of "Wizard Victor" was a loneliness caused by a lack of connection, yes, but it was also the lack of possibility after "all the puzzles are solved". Viktor was left with nothing further to imagine or create, without anyone to see or create with him. And it is perhaps why "only Jayce" could understand this, as they're both characters driven by knowledge and science, both extremely curious and creative individuals with both altruistic and egoistic intentions inside them. As the creator of his own perfect world, after turning completely perfect himself, Victor realized he was only left with a shell of a creation, without his and anybody else's human input (a clear nod to the dangers of artificial intelligence)
What Fortiche created was not only a show filled with themes of love in all its forms, the meaning of being human or being a monster, what's true revolution and progress, ambition vs greed, and so on. But they also made a show that by being imperfect itself (because how else could it be, created by actual people), or the themes themselves posing more questions than answers, depending on the viewer you can take away a multitude of valid viewpoints. And to me that is art well done, because the paintings we love the most aren't usually the ones that took more skill, but the ones that we were able to relate to, that were bold in their choices and vague enough to spark our own capacity for creation.
Thank you guys for this video, can't wait for the next one 🔥
It's pretty amazing how deep and rich of a narrative they crafted, with all the themes you mentioned and probably more!!
The "no prize to perfection just an end to pursuit" line struck me as self aware. They proved they could tell a perfect story last time (No S2 would have left it as one of the best tragedies ever). This time they went past the red line trying to deliver twice as much plot, and add twice the bespoke music, with a result that blew apart like Heimerdinger's episode 7 upgrades while still getting the job done. For all it's warts S2 still makes everything I've tried to watch since seem dull by comparison.
@@blacktigerpaw1 what I tried to say was that the show clearly tried to make us think and ask, "what is true revolution?" "How do we achieve it?" Same with the concept of progress. If you look at Heimerdinger's subtle plot you'll see the show trying to answer those questions in one way (how after he started to help people with simple things, he found he finally was living and pushing progress), but it doesn't have to be a fixed answer. All of the characters reach their own conclusions, different from eachother. Isha was also a figure of revolution. The whole point is that we don't know, but we need to talk about it. It's okay if you think differently.
@@quigsthevicious yes, absolutely. God, the music, it was fantastic.
Thank you for being the first analysis video I've seen that gives ample time to all the great moments in season 2. So many videos focus on the same 2 or 3 nitpicks, and it really gets old. Season 2 is still a great piece of television, and unlike many shows on Netflix, we got a real ending.
8:28 I absolutely agree with this. I also found it very odd that the season IMMEDIATELY starts with the aftermath of the explosion without setting up anything prior. My ideal flashback sequence beforehand would have been a conversation between a young Vi and Powder soon after their parents’ death. Powder would be singing the same song she sings on the bridge in S1:E1 reminding Vi of what they lost. I’d have loved to see her tell her sister something about how she’d make Piltover pay for what they did to them that day, reminding us of Vi’s unrelenting hatred for Topside, but also showing that Vi very much influenced Powder’s view of the world while growing up, thematic of “The Monster You Created”.
Cut to the Enemy intro, then start the first scene of Season 2 where the roles have now been completely switched compared to the flashback scene. Powder ends up being the one to make Topside pay for all of it in the end while Vi ends up joining the enforcers despite what she used to stand for.
Wow that would have been fantastic! Yeah it's so surprising they chose not to do anything like that, I would have loved to see what all went on behind the scenes
@@FrameOfMindBros
Same. I hope they do an Arcane: Bridging The Rift for Season 2 like they did for the first season so I can better understand some of their writing decisions, because I felt that they missed out on many obvious opportunities to further develop the characters or set the scene for future episodes.
Like, I would have simply had Mel die (or taken by the Black Rose) in the explosion so that it can plant the first seeds for Jayce’s hatred of Hextech which then comes full circle in Episode 7 when he finally sees what his creation has done to the world. Also, by doing this, it now gives an opportunity for Jayce to reconnect with Caitlyn again when they’re talking at the park seeing as how they both lost someone dear to them in the explosion. Caitlyn and Jayce’s friendship wasn’t utilized at all in Season 2 outside of that one scene. And if Caitlyn were to, say, influence Jayce to allow her to start the oppression against Zaun as seen in Episode 2, it would make his falling out with Viktor make more sense since violence and suffering was never something Viktor wanted, especially not towards his people. Plus, now you finally have an explanation for Caitlyn’s sudden intrusion on the council members meeting at the end of Episode 1: Jayce got her the task force she asked for and gave her permission to crash in the meeting.
It’s interesting that you fellas were so let down by the first two episodes before episode three gets you back into faith; my personal experience was that the first Act was mostly solid - although the cracks were showing with the Hextech warp sending those three away, and how quickly we go into the half-baked Enforcer team finding Jinx - and while certain later episodes and sequences were great, they didn’t come together in a cohesive whole.
One point that a lot of people felt - to the point writer Christian Linke admitted to it - was that Vi got shafted in favour of a lot of other characters getting to feel more developed; Linke’s response was to rage effect of, “Yeah, we wanted to focus on other characters so she didn’t have time.” I would say that Cait got this too, given that they wanted to take her into such a darker place but weren’t willing and/or able (in the time they had) to actually sit in that, let alone hold her feet to the fire… Or how much build-up Warwic had, despite ultimately feeling like a plot device rather than an interesting character direction to take Vander into… Or heck, Maddie and Loris feeling less-defined than amyloid and Claggor did despite technically being around 3 times as long; I found the former frustrating like a 2010s Disney twist villain (in that we get the reveal so late we don’t know how much of her personality is real), and the latter frustrating in that I wanted more of his friendship with Vi to be depicted so his death would hit more (I liked him more as a concept than a defined personality)…
And yet, I do not hate anyone’s ending point in this story; rather, I think that a lot of them (both the above ones, but also say Heimerdinger, Jayce, Mel, Viktor) had their Act 2 development speed-ran to get to Act 3… Given the feeling that this series could’ve had three seasons to tell the same story, I came out thinking that as an overall narrative it has a rich 1st Act and a well-crafted 3rd Act, but a haphazard 2nd Act. Which is strange, and also not great because the middle of a Three-Act Structured larger narrative is where the MEAT of a story sits and makes the world feel real… Once again, individual sections work, the greater whole feels disjointed in a weird way.
I only hope the writers take the appropriate lessons from this, and consider if they want to go breakneck like they did here in the future or instead just… sit in things more. Yeah, endings are hard, but speedrunning so you overcompensate for not having as much later material isn’t the correct answer I feel.
For one point, as an ATLA fan I always wished that Zuko had more time with Team Avatar in Book 3. But I also recognise there’s not enough events happening to justify that; having say another 4-5 episodes in the last chunk wouldn’t have made the show better overall. So they held back on getting to his turn, making his progression into that place feel naturalistic; what time he gets after that is quality over quantity.
“The specimen must survive”
Vander was a freak physically and mentally and Singed wanted to save him.
Same reason Viktor, Singer’s apprentice, said he was worth risking his own life to try to save.
I usually like doing longer comments on videos like these, just to go against typical online comments which I find are a bit too short to really get a whole idea across. I just gotta say that you guys do a really good job at looking through a series as a whole and critiquing it in both the positive and the negative, while also doing something that I find most online reviewers try to avoid or limit, which is keeping the discussion as human as possible without immediately falling into more negative emotions like anger or frustration. I've been getting a bit tired of seeing media reviewers falling into that trend, and it's really refreshing to see you guys discuss media in a positive tone while still being healthily critical. So, thank you guys for that.
If you guys ever feel like you're getting stumped for other series to look into, I think Re:Creators might fit your video style really well. I don't want to get too spoilery for it, but I think that it's messaging on a creators relationship with both their creation and their audience might be interesting topics for you guys to tackle.
And, if it helps, you guys didn't remind me of cinematherapy at all when I found you guys :D
It's an interesting point tying the Noxian principles of strength to Vander, Jinx, Vi and Isha, however I feel the perspective kind of ignores what the principles of strength represents in the greater universe outside of the Arcane show.
Noxus is ruled by the Trifarix, which splits the power in 3, Darius The Hand of Noxus, Swain the Grand General and The Faceless one. Each of the Noxian leaders is tied to one of the principles of strength, Darius represents might, Swain with the demon of secrets Raum represents Vision and The Faceless one, who is presumed to be LeBlanc, represents Guile. What Ambessa was on about with Sacrifice was that sshe believe sacrifice should be one of the principles of strength, believing her to represent that principle, desiring to sit a top of the leadership in Noxus as a 4th ruler.
I also believe that the upcomming Ambessa novel might shine some more light on this, but also this entire thing is messy because right now what is canon and not is somewhat up in the air especially since from what it seems Arcane takes place before Swain's rise to power, but the principles of strength were established by Swain when he created the Trifarix (Yes the principles are suggested to exist before through a single Mordekaiser quote, but the principles as discribed by Ambessa is what Swain established when establishing the Trifarix, I could not find any mention of Might, Vision and Guile before Swain and the Trifarix)
Been waiting for this one!
Edit after watching the whole video:
A few things I loved that you all talked about.
I love your points about the dialogue between Caitlyn and Vi in episode 1. Such small changes could really have made it more impactful, and would have cost next to nothing to animate a few more seconds for characters to "take a beat" and digest dialogue. I think this is really the root of the opinions on season 2 being "rushed". Characters didn't get as much time as they did in season 1 to "take a beat" and let moments breathe..
I also love your idea of Caitlyn' character being defined by betrayal while her strength is her vision. That's a really cool parallel.
Vi feeling some of the pain from Caitlyn that she inflicts on Powder in season 1 is a great catch. It's also the first time Caitlyn has ever hurt Vi physically after being a very gentle person towards her and the only person she could be safe and vulnerable with. I didn't pick up on this at all, and I'm glad y'all did.
Finally, Ambessa's Strength, Guile, Loyalty, and Sacrifice tying back to the Vander and the family in episode 5/6 is really cool.
I thoroughly enjoyed your discussion and look forward to more!
Glad we could finally get it to you 😄
You made a great point about Jinx and Vi stepping into each other's shoes this season. When Isha was captured during the Zaun riots (thankfully surviving her encounter with Rictus), I think this gave Jinx a deeper understanding of why Vi left her behind during the Vander rescue mission. It wasn't just about bravery or capability - it was about an older sister's fear of losing the last precious person in her life. Through Isha's situation, Jinx could finally see that sometimes a person, no matter how brave or capable, can simply be too young to handle extreme and dangerous situations.
This adds another layer to how cleverly the show puts each sister in situations that help them understand the other's past choices and perspective. Rather than explicitly stating these parallels, the show lets them emerge naturally through the story.
Amazingly insightful episode once again! Editing this through the technical difficulties must've been a nightmare but it truly came out incredibly polished and readable (watchable?).
Totally resonate with everything that was spoken about -- from tempo (his golf swing is wild???) all the way back to the common thread of forgiveness. I definitely found myself thinking about the character relationships throughout S2 more. In S1, you could figuratively draw a line between any two characters who interacted and have a VERY clear idea of their dynamic, however nuanced. I feel like S2's dynamics were a bit more muddled, maybe with the exception of Cait/Ambessa. Still a top tier show and a top tier deep dive into it!
"It goes back to the mushrooms!" will also be entering my daily vocabulary.
So glad you liked the episode! Yeah I resonate with your point about the clear character dynamics in S1 compared to S2, while at the same time loving how much depth and nuanced some of them ended up being by the end. Haha, and I never expected my mushroom comments to become daily vocabulary but I'm honored either way 😂
Loved the episode!!
There were a few things from the show I thought were missing. Some scenes could have been shifted.
To me they seemed attached on making parallels between season 1 episodes and the season 2 ones that we get ep 5 starts with Pitfighter Vi. I think it would have been cool to start with a flashback for Vander and him fighting as a human before cutting and showing us him stalking the mines as warwick looking for blood. Then go to Pitfighter Vi. It would have given us more time grasping that this is Vander.
Caitlyn could have used a scene where she is confronted by Grayson's Statue and she hears "What are you shooting for Kiraman?" Going back to the first season and giving her a decent place where you see her waver before having her meeting Vi and switching sides.
Oooh that's a great idea for Caitlyn! A concrete motivation for her wavering, or at least a representation of it, probably would have really helped her character arc a lot 🤔👍
I love what you guys are doing here, huge fan of this content. Please keep it up, I can see you guys blowing up one day hopefully soon.
Thanks so much! 🙏 Really appreciate the support!
Loved the video, guys! I especially appreciated the discussion on Viktor as it helped formulate why I found the ending so strong despite there being a bit of a pacing issue(tempo?). The Maddie betrayal and black rose subplot were pretty weak in my opinion yet I still loved act 3.
If you ever decide to have a guest on, I would suggest getting someone on with more of a musical background as that’s the only thing I felt like wasn’t mentioned in this video.
Thanks!
Stoked you liked the video! Yeah I agree having a special guest with a musical background I think would be a phenomenal addition for a lot of pieces of media not just Arcane 😄 Once we can afford a 3rd mic we'll get on it 😉
Weird coincidence but, your first arcane video came up on my suggested right before you guys posted this and I was like “I wish there was a video about season two”, and then the premier for this video popped up, love the content!
lucky you, I've been waiting this one for awhile xD
Haha, perfect timing 😂 I guess it was meant to be. Thanks for giving us your valuable time 🙏
It's about tiiiiiime, I've been waiting and going crazy, love you guy. Happy new year.
Haha, better late than never 😄 you'll find out in the episode why it took so long...
One thing i think is interesting about the pacing/tempo/dialogue between Vi and Cailtyn is that I interpreted it as Vi and Cait being on super different pages, not knowing each other very well at all, but trying to communicate. It's clear to me that its awkward and incompatible at this stage. In the first clip around calling off the invasion, it almost feels to me like Vi is listening, but only partially, because she is waiting for an opportunity to share what she needs to say. She is also holding space for Cait who is experiencing a fraction of what Vi has experienced growing up in Zaun, and I think is trying to be compassionate but is also struggling a bit to truly give Cait the space because she has learned to move forward quickly when shit happens. Cait has lived a much more sheltered life, and I think Vi struggles to be patient with her in her processing, even though she wants to and really tried to be present. Its kind of like..yes this is bad and also we need to take action and stop things from getting worse. I also see how Vi is torn between supporting Cait and defending zaunites. Cait calls Vi's people animals, and Vi retorts in defense of them.
30:34 I'd argue that maybe Maddie was suggested by Ambessa which would explain why Caitlyn added her to the squad. That would also line up with her being revealed as the double crosser working for Ambessa .
I think that could have been a strong addition, I just wish they would have made that clear if true 😞
I think it can be explained just by the fact that the squad are the people who faced down the shimmer tanks and survived, while other enforcers were either killed, or wouldn't know what they're up against. My personal headcanon is also that one of Vi's conditions for joining up was that the rest of the squad had to be people that she found trustworthy.
I really love the very thoughtful approach you guys take. It's so engaging to watch you work through everything.
Thank you so much! 🙏
I think it just needed a couple more episodes to flesh out some stuff. It should have been about 30 episodes for all it was trying to do. That being said. I think it’s flawed but good.
"maybe even better than the first season?" That's a bit of a stretch.
I won't deny the visuals, the sound, the music, score and voice acting are all on point.
If you can look at season 2 objectively and stop allowing yourself to be manipulated by all the times season 2 tries to wring out the 'feels', there are a lot of narrative, character and dialogue problems that I refuse to hand wave in favor of spectacle, puppy dog eyes and tragic drama for the sake of drama.
When you go back and watch season 1, you find little details that answers a lot of questions you may have had the first time or two. Events and character decisions become more explicable and well-defined.
When you go back and re-watch season 2, there's a lot of things that seem to make less sense and have you scratching your head because you can't find anything to to explain or push the narrative. Season 2 fails to build off of what was set up in season 1, namely a brewing war between Zaun and Piltover in favor of dragging Ambessa and Noxus to the front and then all the random crap that happens in between. I think Warwick would've been better served if the story focused on Zaun and Piltover. He's the Hound of the Underground, the blood-thirsty protector of the Undercity. As it stands, Warwick was little more than a plot device to enable some sister bonding between Jinx and Vi and a field test to dazzle Ambessa so Singed could get what he wanted.
It doesn't help that 4 key writers from season 1 were let go or left and were not involved in season 2 and it really shows. Even the first time watching season 2, I felt like focus on the story and cause and effect that was so well implemented in season 1 were lost. Instead, we got a lot of stylized music video montages glazing over the passage of time and scenes written solely for eliciting audience emotion rather than serving the Narrative. 'Blisters and Bedrock' is one of the worst examples of this as the flashback doesn't in any way tie into or drive the narrative and more importantly, it recontextualizes Vander and Silco in act 1 of season 1 to the point of making a lot of what they did questionable. It also changes Vander from a man who was not prepared for the consequences of his rebellion and making a conscious decision to drop his gloves and save the orphans rather than a man who just watched a good friend die and feels obligated to get Vi and Powder, whom he knows intimately based on the flashback in season 2, to safety.
@@charlestonjew7587 yes, I agree.
The worst for season 2 for me was the emotional manipulation that is meant to cover for the inconsistent story, rushed character arcs and forced messages. For the same purpose we have the overuse of symbolism that also loses it's subtlety.
The creators abandoned the grounded story and characters for the sake of not very subtle or particularly original message that we are being spoon-fed with by the writers.
@@doro55-q5d By the end of season 1, Mel was up there with Vi, Jinx, Viktor and Silco as my favorite characters. Then she's utterly wasted in season 2 by getting kidnapped, spending a whole episode in a prison, disappearing for 2 more episodes and then busting out a super-saiyan in episode 8, at which point she stops being Mel.
I think a lot of people misunderstood what the significance of the Piltover vs. Zaun conflict was in season 1. It's the setting, not the plot. The plot is the development of hextech/waking up the arcane. The war with Noxus ties all the character threads into this fight over control over hextech, and also incorporates the struggle between Piltover and Zaun. The Zaunites join the fight, but most of them join on their own terms, fighting with their own means. And the war doesn't erase the tensions, it's still there at the ends, as you can see from the scene of Sevika at the council.
Also, Piltover and Zaun coming together to face an outside threat was foreshadowed in season 1 by Jayce and Silco's exchange about the two cities once being united to face outside threats. Not to mention by Powder's "friend across the river" song.
I really think you need to rewatch "Blisters and bedrock". It's an exploration of Vander's guilt over giving up the fight. In the bar scene with Felicia, she basically says that they have to win the fight for Zaun no matter what, for the sake of her kid. "You two are going to figure this Zaun thing out. I don't care if you have to carve it out of the bedrock covered in blisters. You're not allowed to fail anymore. For her." But Vander *does* fail. He breaks his promise to do whatever it takes for Zaun, in order to look after the kids (who he also clearly knew beforehand, if you rewatch the bridge scene, they very clearly recognize each other.). The flashback shows how Silco and Vander were once united while also showing what will tear them apart - Silco is focused on the "whatever it takes - blisters and bedrock" part of what Felicia says, while Vander is already picking out baby names. It's a really underrated scene.
@@marissaolanick6104 Even if it means killing Felicia's kids? Silco was ruthless and was willing to kill Vander's (adopted family). I don't believe he would actively try to kill Felicia's kids.
I've watched 'Blisters and Bedrock' numerous times and with each watch, it makes me hate that flashback more and more. It makes me have to do unnecessary mental gymnastics looking back on season 1. The recontextualization doesn't enhance or add depth to Silco and Vander's relationship. It just makes it confusing.
Their falling out and relationship to Vi and Powder in season 1 was simple and effective. It didn't need any added layer of complexity just so the writers could wring out another emotional scene in a season already crammed with contrived 'feels'. Again, it doesn't add anything to or push the narrative in any way and only muddies the waters. Episode 5 of season 2 is probably my least favorite of the season. Sure there's a nice therapeutic moment where Jinx and Vi just kind of get everything out in the open in a sisterly fight but the pacing in the episode is the worst. A whole bunch of nothing happens. Jinx, Isha and Vi walk through an old mine. Mel spends a good portion just sitting around in an otherworldly prison, talking to her not-brother about the secret of her origin. None of the Black Rose story line interested me and ruined Mel's character, tbh because she went from a spectacular, morally ambiguous political strategist to a super-saiyan in like an instant, at which point I had zero investment in from there on.
@charlestonjew7587 why wouldn't Silco be willing to kill kids he knows? How is him killing Felicia's kids substantively different from killing Vander's kids?
Everything in Blisters and Bedrock is geared towards making it possible for Vi and Jinx to rebuild their relationship on a new basis. There’s a great role reversal where Vi is at rock bottom, while she sees Jinx having her life a bit more together. She sees that other people see Jinx as a hero, she sees Jinx in a loving sisterly relationship. And she sees that things between Vander and Silco were more complicated than she knew. And if Vander wanted to patch things up with Silco, why can't Vi patch things up with Jinx? They go on this emotional journey downwards, after which they're able to build back up. Since the end of the first arc Vi has been dealing with her problems the only way she knows how, by fighting. And her first reaction to seeing Jinx again is to fight her, and she keeps her guard up the whole episode. Until Warwick shows up and Vi has to trust Jinx and let her guard down, and she's rewarded for it. While Vander/Warwick is being plagued by memories of his failures, of how he gave up the fight, until he sees the girl he gave up the fight for. It's a beautiful episode.
Btw on the fish enforcer - people loved him! Actually if you rewind and watch enforcers in battle, he is usually on the front line. You can find a few shorts capturing it, something like Thus one hidden arcane character is the most underestimated, or something like that
The top siders also embody the 3 types of strength. Mel guile, jayce might, viktor glorious vision.
There is a debate in the scientific community that states there is no free will because of determinism. You say did we do a good job predicting of did the show do such a good job setting it up. I think there is hardly a difference, but would love to hear your takes on how narrative structure stacks this up.
Oh this discussion, this podcast is so great! Love the nuance!!! Probably need to listen again
Haha we won’t stop you from listening a second time 😂 so grateful you liked it! 🙏🏻
Regarding the arm threw Sevika in Episode Two. Sevika is Season One spends her down time gambling. Jinx tailored the arm with this theme in mind.
Ooooh! 😱 That makes it even better! Good eye! 🙌
Is it just me, or does listening to you 2 make me love this show more? Bravo
Aw thanks so much! Glad we could have the effect if it means going deeper into the details of the show 😁
2nd comment of the video but god damn man, right at the end u say the exact thing i have been thinking a bout for so long. the creators giver u the freedom to kinda make ur own story about jinxes death. If to you, the plotline of jinx dying is more important for you, she died but if the character is more important than she can be alive. So good!
I noticed the goggles thing (Claggo'rs goggles being used by both sisters) to be such a sisterly tell! These girls grew in poverty so I'm assuming lots of hand-me-down clothes and swapping shirts when possible. Stealing someone's gadgets is such a thing all siblings do-it felt really buttersweet
About Viktor, he was really helping people ,none of those people were really alive , thats why Jaycee didn't even hesitate to kill Salo. The moment Viktor came back to life he was like you guys said "the monster"
You guys have done a great job with these Arcane videos!
Nice job on the predictions you made in the S1 video 🙌🏼
Just commenting as I am watching, but I find the time-displacement, dimension-traveling, scenes so fascinating. Looking at the principles and beliefs of the 3 "time-travelers" and seeing where and when it landed them in time, 1) Heimerdinger sent to the past because his "Frame of Mind" 🤣 is stuck in the past afraid of what could be, 2) Jayce being sent to the future because he wanted to bring a new age of advancement through Hextech, and 3) Ekko being sent to the parallel present because he is a person who fights for the people of the present (seen with his activities with the firelights).
I want to bring to light though the unseen positive consequences of Heimerdinger being sent to the past and the contributions he made to the parallel world in bringing Piltover and Zaun closer together, something he had not done in his original world because he had not realized both the troubles and potential of Zaun, until he met Ekko. Which is why before Hiemie's death he mentions of how he "truly lived" since he has met Ekko, meaning he was no longer stuck in the past, learning how to live in the present. Heimerdinger is not just a great inventor, he is a founder of Piltover and has great authority.
It is not something that is stated in dialogue, but something within the context and environmental storytelling. I love Arcane.
Ah I love that interpretation! I hadn't noticed the 3 "time travelers" past-present-future element until you mentioned it 🤯🤔
I was pleasantly surprised by season 2. I agree that it was concerning in the first few episodes, but it really came through in the last two acts.
Yeah it was a strange one for sure, but they pulled it off in the end 😄
30:20 while I don't disagree with the little fixes you suggest, the reason those characters are the elite task force is because they were the heroes of the Memorial attack, They fought the Zaun Monsters until the Noxians arrived. Of all the enforcers they now have the most practical experience fighting Chem enhanced adversaries.
Vi started losing her fights in the montage the moment Jinx started betting on her indicating she’s a jinx, if you rewatch it.
Also in season 1, Vander is referred to as a dog or a hound multiple times. Also in the alternate universe when Vi dies, everyone else lives, indicating that perhaps Vi is the real jinx.
@@ScurvyBird I can see why you’d maybe come to that conclusion but I think the point was that not one singular person is a “jinx”. They’re all just trying to live and falling victim to shitty circumstances time and time again. If you’d want to pin the jinx label on anything it would probably more so be piltover/zaun conflict and hextech for example rather than a person. Every problem can be rooted back to something and those two play a large part
Pretty sure Jinx was betting on her from the start, but I'll have to rewatch. Either way, Vi starts losing fights when she starts drinking to much and losing focus. It's not Jinx's fault Vi is a fuck up.
you guys and cinema therapy are both my favorite channels!!
Thank you so much! 🙏
Episode 6 was in my opinion one of the most heartbreaking peach of media i ever seen.
i was absolutely broken after that episode.
Just crushing 😩
I believe the choice of the elite team was right since the one who chose them was Caitlyn who was a young person motivated by revenge and couldn’t see clearly who she was choosing and it was more of like who survived in the attack from Zaun and for Maddie, I feel like initially she was good but since she got involved in the middle of rebound relationship and couldn’t handle being a rebound, it drives her to hurt the person she wanted to love. Because of that, I wasn’t surprised when Maddie betrayed Caitlyn, you can see even in her eyes when Ambessa attack the tower where Caitlyn shooting from, Maddie got anxious (either she was worried about the plan or she wasn’t prepared to let Caitlyn go)
Sevika vs Smeech was my favourite fight scene as well! On top of the character beats that you discussed, the visuals were also incredibly cool and the music worked well with it - every frame looked like it was from a comic book.
I was surprised you didn't once mention Mel and her kidnapping sideplot this entire video, particularly when you were discussing the odd pacing of the season - that would be my top choice for redistributing screentime. She was such a cool character but with very little payoff in the end. I also felt that the Piltover vs Zaun conflict was completely written out of significance to make way for the Glorious Evolution plotline, just as Vi was written out of plot significance this season despite arguably being the protagonist of S1.
This might not be the specific parallel you were referencing when asking for other pieces of media in the Viktor discussion segment, but Arcane features too many references to the anime Puella Magi Madoka Magica to be coincidential: specifically in terms of character motivations, some of the Hexcore plot points, mixed medium animation styles (especially given the medium of Madoka vs Arcane), as well as some extremely key visuals. It is a short and digestible 12 episode long completed series (can't speak for the movies that I have never watched) and might make for a good video essay - I'm startled that there isn't one already that I could find. I also strongly suggest watching this one if you haven't, because of Curtis's comment about whether or not Old Man Viktor was the real hero of the story.
(I describe Arcane to Madoka as "Madoka but it's steampunk and the protagonists are middle aged scientists instead of Japanese schoolgirls. FRIENDSHIP NO JUSTSU~)
2:04:08 One could argue that it was Ekko giving the tip to Vi to rob Jayce which started the plot of this whole series, because Jayce's lab would never have exploded had the kids not robbed him, and the events of Season 1 would not have occurred because not only would Powder not have gone on her downwards spiral, but Jinx would not have had the means to blow up the council room. By this same logic, Ekko can't be the hero because he caused everything to begin with! 😁
(more braindump from watching your video which you are not obligated to read but I have nowhere else to post it. I love all your videos so far because they provoke thoughts like these as opposed to simply asserting your personal thoughts and opinions as many video reviews do. Your channel deserves so many more subscribers for the quality of content you two are producing and I hope that this video blows up for you!)
A common criticism that seems to be making its rounds on the internet is that the writing for Arcane S2 was lower in quality but elevated by the efforts of the acting, storyboarding, and animation teams. I am personally unaware of how rooted in truth this is, however some of of the evidence for this case includes the poor dialogue and pacing choices that you touched upon in this video, but also the fact that the entire show was hand animated (no motion capture used) with mixed mediums (2D, 3D, traditional drawings) with every second of footage taking a full day to create (source: documentary). Thich implies that each and every single detail on screen was put there deliberately, from minute character expressions, to small background details with hidden symbolism, to framing & cuts - I am inclined to lean into this particular criticism for those reasons, but also due to snippets gleaned from whatever we are calling the phenomenon where the show production team are interacting directly with fans via social media (rather than being restricted to panels, interviews, and press releases).
An example of such elevation was how Jordan brought the specific method of Warwick's inclusion being a bit awkward in general (writing), but with Curtis's observation/feeling of his silhouette giving off Vander vibes for no particular reason (animation) giving the whole plotline more of a sense of completion than it would have otherwise (particularly if you were not a League player). The parallels between Ambessa and the Vander family unit were still there, but emphasized via animation choices (in particular, almost all of Vander and Isha/Jinx flashback montages were animated in 2D mediums). In my mindscape, the airship reference mentioned later in the video is also something I attribute to leaving high degrees of creative freedom to the storyboarding/animation team.
In my uneducated opinion, some of the most impactful and memorable scenes in this season were those where the dialogue was minimal and the audience was left to just engage and experience without having to be shoehorned or explained at - you touched on a few of these throughout your video as well, one of which was the Vi pitfighter montage which managed to express so much in such little time with absolutely no dialogue (before it is punched in the face with abrupt pacing).
I enjoyed your analysis of Isha, however many of the points you brought up in a good light are the same points that seem to get brought up frequently in a negative light - that she exists as a narrative framing device for Jinx but lacks character on her own, which is in contrast to all of the characters introduced in Season 1, no matter how minor. You vaguely touched on this when discussing missed potential of the other members of Caitlyn's war crimes squad but I felt it also applied to Isha. I enjoyed her as an extension of Jinx and I cried at the end of episode 6 along with everybody else, but she didn't feel very real to me at the end of the day.
I'm honestly always confused when people say they think the Piltover vs. Zaun storyline was dropped. This is a prequel, so the dynamics of the world itself can't change too much, so it was never going to be resolved. And the division is still there throughout the war - some Zaunites sign up to fight with Piltover, but most of them join the fight on their own terms and fight with their own means. And as we see at the end, when Sevika joins the council, some attempt at reform has been made, but the tension is far from over. It all rings very true-to-life for me.
@@torchide I think an important thing to consider is that writing is more than just dialogue, it's also deciding what will be communicated without dialogue, and trusting the animators/actors/directors to tell their part of the story. I also think a number of the problems highlighted in this video have more to do with directorial decisons than writing decisions.
@@marissaolanick6104 "This is a prequel" - I believe this is the context where our impressions diverge. I'm not deeply entrenched in Riot's lore (did play League back in 2009-2013 before they were trying to establish a multiverse and so much lore has been retconned) so I am consuming Arcane from the perspective of it being a standalone piece of media, which Season 1 did an excellent job of. I am not viewing this content as a single story told within a larger multiverse (maybe this is why I disliked the Black Rose subplot so much despite being a fan of Mel as a character) but instead as a complete narrative with nods to external references for the multiverse fans and easter eggs sequestered here and there, not necessary for understanding the plot but nice to have.
I'm fully unaware of the dynamics of the wider world outside of what was presented in both seasons of this show, nor do I particularly care at this point because I have not been given reason to thus far; my personal disappointment with how this particular plotline was handled is due to the fact that this was the driving plot for the entirety of Season 1, but also arguably the key plot point that tied together Season 2 episodes 1 through 5. Focusing on specifically on Season 2 character arcs, it was what kickstarted Caitlyn's arc but also arguably Viktor's arc (which transitioned to becoming the focal point of episodes 6-9). Considering that after years and years of oppression, a failed riot at the start of Season 1, then years of slow deterioration via police corruption in conjunction with Silco's drug empire, followed by the entirety of Zaun being punished for the actions of one including being GASSSED IN THEIR STREETS, invaded at their non-violent rally, taking literal children into custody, then bringing a whole ass army to march straight through their doorstep and shoot their only doctor/Jesus, who was HEALING people from consequences of earlier said drug empire, through the chest, instantly killing hundreds of their own people at the commune (they were really brainwashed Arcane evolution dolls, but that was probably not the perception at the time).
That long run-on sentence being said, I find the events of episode 8 difficult to believe, when Caitlyn and Jayce were attempting to appeal to Zaun for volunteers with some Zaunites actually volunteering. Yes, the occupation was ended, but I fail to interpret this as a concession made to assuage the public opinion - I see this as "o dang we need more soldiers to defend against Noxus we can't afford the manpower in Zaun right now" more than anything else. On top of this, they are declaring that they would abandon the outskirts of town to focus defense on the Hexgates - does that not directly imply that they are abandoning the defense of Zaun to defend only central areas of Piltover? Why on earth would any self respecting Zaunite volunteer for that, based on everything that occurred in the last 10 years of their world's history?
As you stated, most of them join the fight on their own terms with their own means at the end - I found this a lot more realistic than the events of Episode 8 and I can see the return/unification of Ekko, Jinx, and Sevika doing a lot to motivate the undercity in that direction. I do agree with your statements about the attempts at bridging and tensions remaining with Sevika joining the council at the end and found that part to be realistic and a satisfactory ending.
Thank you for the thoughtful responses and I hope this comment better helps to understand where I am coming from with these statements.
@@marissaolanick6104 on writing and dialogue - My earlier comment was parroting a lot of what I had heard online (take with a grain of salt) and my belief is that the best scenes produced are when everybody involved is able to express creative freedom and collaborate in an effective way.
I got emotional watching you guys getting emotional. 😂 I love your thorough review and analysis. Keep up the great work, you two!
Thank you so much! ❤️
Heartbroken that the last two videos have been on products I haven't watched, because I haven't been seeing ya'll in my recommended :/. Love ya'll's work!
Aw thank you! If you ever get the chance, Arcane is well worth the watch 👍
@@FrameOfMindBros Only, and I mean genuinely only because you've recommended it, and it would provide context for your next videos, I'll do my homework.
2:04:37 Victor is hero and villain. Ekko is 100% hero and loses in the end. Singed is 100 percent the winner
S1 Ep7
Ekko introduction
The Boy Savior
Goated episode 🙌🐐
8:57, hella idea, bro proved hes a editor lol
Glad you believe me 😂🎞
I believe all the „flaws“ of Season 2 needs to be exactly like they are because they mirror the emotions and Personalitys of the characters at this exact moments.
As for me all the „flaws“ offers me the option to Feel like the characters.
Love your discussions especially the ones I haven't thought of, like all those parallels and making me think of why a character might do or feel something not for plot reasons, but becquse it's their personality,which does end up affecting the overall ploy. Speaking of parallels, love to hear someone also see the parallels between Jinx and Viktor. I've always felt that there is a parallel between them way before s2 came out. Viktor's my fave so happy to hear you two like him as well, he's such a great character and got some of probably the best lines/quotes in the show for how it matches the every characters whole deal. Love the analogy and probably one of the best explanation of "pacing" issues some shows have. I noticed some of the similarities with Naruto, but Aot and evangilion I did not, so that's awesome.
I encountered and watched cinema therapy first, but lemme tell ya, yes both your channels have similarities (watching media then analyzing it with cinema and psychology lens), but both of your channels presents ideas that's uniquely yours, which makes it great since you brought up things from different perspective from a seemingly same backdrop.
Arcane s1 is, indeed, more cohesive, but what happen in s2 is definitely crucial. Despite s2 having issues, I find myself actually feel like S2 is what pushed me to actually LOVE the show. In s1, it's perfect and everything is clear, cohesive as what you have said, and I love it. S2 feels chaotic, there's a mess, I find myself questioning more, but at the same time feel more drawn in, I'm more invested and found myself distraught with what's happening in the story. And I LOVE it. Actually loving a show for me is when you can see and acknowledge all the flaws and blunders it did, but still find yourself ùuenjoying and liking it. Cue Jayce and Viktor's dialouge at the end cuz man... I felt that. ⁰
This is the 2nd vid I watched from this channel (1st being your 1st arcane vid, which I just recently watched cuz this 2nd part eas recommended). And I gotta say, I love it. Looking forward to the other series you'll be creating analysis for.
Not raising this as a disagreement per se, but I think the chaoticness of this season was part of the point. The relationship between order and chaos is something that comes up a few times. In season one, we saw science gaining mastery over magic, and in season 2, we saw the chaotic backlash of the arcane against being mastered. That''s obviously embodied in the anomoly the sucks in Jayce, Ekko and Heimerdinger, but I think it's also reflected in more chaotic elements being introduced in all the characters' storylines.
"You can absolutely be the hero and the villain."
IT Professionals: "I feel seen."
😂
Wow, i dont know if i was so not rested when i was watching it or what. But now this second season makes for me sooo much more sense! Thank you
Sometimes we just have to chew on things a little while in order to see them from a new perspective 😁👍
"Viktor The Dark Prophet" Goes hard af
😎🌌
Maddie’s betrayal was foreshadowed when Ambessa warned Caitlyn about the “dangers of professional entanglement”!
It's true 😄 I think Curtis was referring more to the general concept of trust / betrayal through both 2 seasons but 100% agree with you that Maddie's moment in particular was foreshadowed very well.
Again, another great episode and deep dive into arcane!
Thanks so much! 🙏
The last thing Vander saw was his daughter in danger. His will to live was therefore to be able to make sure that his daughters were safe. Is that not a compelling reason to want to live?
Actually a very compelling reason 🥲
i loved this video! definitely one i will replay a bunch to fully hear your thoughts!
your whole channel is cool, and since you guys are accustomed to watching anime, would love to hear an episode of Frieren: Beyond Journey’s End !!
Thank you! We've had a lot of requests for Frieren, I think we'll have to make a video about it at some point 👍
To answe the question of why it needs to be Vander specifically as Warwick: the amount of shimmer Vander takes in S1E3 should have killed him. But something about Vander trying to protect his daughters pushes his mind past the deadly effects. That's what Singed specifically needs.
That Smeech fight is when Jinx stops breaking things and starts fixing them…
Starting with replacing Sevika’s arm that she blew off in S1Ep3!
The slot machine also made sense for Sevika bc Sevika was a gambler.
Check out the video “JINX & SEVIKA’S ABSURDLY FUN Fight Scene - 5 Things I Love” by Schnee.
He breaks down the scene and why the slot machine was perfect for Sevika!
Really cool analysis!
"There’s beauty in imperfections" - Jayce
Such a beautiful statement
Loved the episode, great insight you both bring to this masterpiece that is Arcane
Thank you so much! 🙏
The arm gun that jinx gave to Sevika somehow reminded me of Kite of Hunter x Hunter
I agree the season starts was abrupt but it started with a trauma like the first season. The murders on the bridge vs the council. We see afterward the consequences of both in their respective season.
What do you guys theorize was different in this universe? Was it the acceleration rune that allowed the creation of Ekko’s Z-drive? The fact that in Jayce’s AU you can see Jinx’s air balloon smashed against the tower’s clock makes me think that the Z-drive was invented before (he would’ve had to safe Jinx in that universe as well). Would like to hear your theories!
This was the ultimate analysis of Arcane. Mind-blowing.
So grateful you think so! 🙏 Thanks for your kind words 😄
I do find it interesting that you mention about the end of episode 1 when Caitlyn tells Salo that she's "a decorated officer" when there is actually no evidence of this because this tracks with Caitlyn's past behavior of lying her ass off to get what she wants. She forges Jayce's signature to have Vi released from Stillwater when, in fact, she wasn't even an active enforcer anymore. Later, in episode 7 of season 1, she tells Marcus on the bridge that she had proof Silco was involved with the attacks and behind the rampant spread of shimmer when, in fact, she had nothing of the sort. She had the hexgemstone and the word of a wanted criminal from the Undercity.
I LOVE episode 7 but am conflicted that they went into AU territory because they did not give foundational things any time compared to S1. Vi, Cait, and Jinx feel like completely different people. Cait completely loses her empathy and level head after literally saying Zaun needs healing; we basically fridged her mom, but if morals could switch LIKE THAT, then…. Every time one loses a parent they’d just flip to a different person. Vi has been through SOOOO much worse than the breakup with Cait and yet that is what makes her give up on Zaun entirely, she also never thinks to seek out Ekko which would have made the most sense? The gas is too unpredictable for me to see Vi actually being okay with using it in Zaun but sure… made a cool montage I guess. Jinx is MENTALLY ILL, but suddenly, because Isha falls on her head she is simply cured? I recognize there were things that had to happen but we didn’t see them so it comes across as cheap and unbelievable. Additionally, Isha is so obviously a plot device that I couldn’t even care for her like I would a character. These are only a few of the wtf inconsistencies I cannot excuse. Viktor being the mage raises more story breaking questions than makes any sense. If he was always the mage then why give Jayce runes at all? Also, couldn’t Jayce have shown Viktor where he was headed instead of being instrumental in his “evolution” by nuking him? Season 1 is a masterpiece and season two could have been if they’d only followed the beats they set up in season 1. It’s genuinely so disappointing.
I would say that Viktor, when he's in the comune, is absolutely NOT doing the right thing. He wasn't healing all those people, he was killing them and they were already hexcore automatons, they just seemed happy.
Salo exemplifies this most. The whole show Salo was a power hungery rat bastard, and then suddenly he can walk again and he's nice and running errands for Viktor, something he would never do willingly before visiting the comune. Plus, when Salo/Viktor are talking to Jayce at the Hexgate core, you can see Jayce's breath, but you can't see Salo's. He's not breathing. He's already dead.
I think Glorious Evolution like orange juice in Evagalion
Haha, "Orange Juice" is a very kind way to put it 😂
If it makes you feel better I never heard of cinema therapy until you guys just mentioned it and frame of mind is a more creative name
Haha, much appreciated Roderick! 🙏 Thanks so much!
That last part of the necesesity for thr capacity for forgiving a monster reminded me of Naruto
Very similar themes in both shows
Hahhaha the ending of this video rules. Would be hilarious if they meta-manipulated the show and added imperfections to drive home the point that imperfections are beautiful 🔥🔥
And the idea that to forgive a monster, you must accept flaws! Genius!
Thanks so much 🙏🏻 so glad you liked the ending 😁 yeah such great lines from this show it’s hard not to point anywhere and pick one
I love your dog 🥺it's so cute!
Haha, his name is Boomer 🐶 And glad you appreciate his calming presence 😄
1:37:07 it was Jayce's version of fucking everything up like Starlord in Infinity War...but kinda planned
On the other hand, all of the story line happened because Ekko gave the information to VI about Jayce workshop, so you can say he fixed sth that he caused in the first place😅
I could of listened to y'all go on for like 2 more hours keep it up guys!
Thank you so much! 🙏
I love songs that bounce around all kinds of crazy time signatures, so maybe that’s why I didn’t mind the format switching! 🤣🤣
Check out the band Symphony X!
Some of the flaws are like. Hey. Let’s self project on to what we want to see in the characters. I notice that allot in criticism online just in general. Not just this show. It’s interesting at least a little bit. With this talk. There is some self questioning of the initial thoughts. Which I appreciate.