@@phantomwalker8251 lol what I said was commonsense everyone with a brain knows for the power and revs you get for a petrol power plant whilst yes you can tow with it downside you will not make it to the next fuel stop.. they are a people mover only.. for repair ability you will like get the cruiser fix quicker in the country areas than getting any other brand serviced.. toyotas go garbage if you don't maintain them reality is if you had access to a toyota you could see the great great grandkids driving the vehicle kind of a testiment to it can't say that with other brands unfoortunately
A couple small addenda: 1) Wishbone suspension is one type of independent suspension, but it isn't the only one. The other common versions are MacPherson Strut suspension and Multi-Link suspension. In a MacPherson Strut suspension the shock absorber takes the place of the upper wishbone and the upper portion of the hub carrier. The entire shock absorber twists when the steering turns. The main advantage of this design is its smaller size compared to wishbone suspension, allowing for a wider engine bay and/or a narrower chassis. A multi-link suspension is essentially the same as a wishbone suspension except it has multiple links instead of just two wishbones, which allows for a more complex wheel path as the suspension compresses and/or wishbone-suspension performance in a smaller space, at the expense of durability. 2) There is a form of beam axle called a Torsion-Beam axle, which is partway between a solid axle and independent suspension. The two wheels are mounted to trailing-arms welded to the torsion beam, which allows for some amount of independent movement with the torsion beam twisting when the chassis leans, similar to how a swaybar works in other suspension designs. It is very simple and offers a smoother ride compared to a solid axle, but is not as adjustable as a true independent suspension. It is often used on the rear axles of inexpensive FWD cars, but it can also be used with RWD or 4WD with some modifications to the torsion-beam to allow mounting a differential.
@@turboleggy Not really. Ford used it up front for about 20 years in their F150 and Bronco trucks. It is extremely durable but it wears bushings out pretty fast which makes alignments difficult. It provided the comfort of IFS with almost all the capability of SFA. Desert racers still use TTB suspension setups because they articulate so much while maintaining extreme durability.
Jeremy Odell That is where we differ. I want a smooth ride like a Cadillac on and off road through the bumps at high speed. Can you do this in your solid axle off road with your GF. ruclips.net/video/LtuWtuR2qIg/видео.html OR this out with the boys ? ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html I could not do it in a solid axle and would spill my drink way slower.
@@brianbirc yeah, I do with my jeep lmao. adjustable remote reservoir shocks with progressive springs on a live axle, gives you all the strength, flex and comfortability, plus you can switch them up to a stiffer position when you get back to the road so they handle better. I'm not saying TTB is trash but maybe you could go faster than 40 miles per at "high speed" if you didn't have it..
@@c4onmylip I can not say I could go faster than 40 MPH if I did not have TTB. I understand the suspension that is sold with nearly all new trucks is not able to do much. The fact that independent front susfull pension soaks up bumps better at high speed is reality. That is why off road race trucks use it. My TTB is not dropped down on a bracket for lift. It is cut and turned keeping the high mount. The short radius arms are replaced with long chromoly ones mounted with large heim joints at the back of the door. My beams are plated and gusseted. My axles all upgraded and new clearance and strapped for droop at 18" up front to protect my shocks on tall towers and lower beam mounts. King Socks by Bret King local to me. 60-70 mph over 3 foot whoops in control and not spilling my drink is common. Glass fenders and bedsides required for 35" tire clearance with a 4" lift. I no longer have my 302. I have a balanced and blueprinted 408 full roller fuel injected with AFR heads fresh intake and headers and exhaust. Here is examples of TTB 4x4 Broncos ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html and here is a group in the sand dunes ruclips.net/video/tvfO78JNcJQ/видео.html Me and my GF on my 1st run on the 150 mile Mojave Road late sunset short and real time. ruclips.net/video/LtuWtuR2qIg/видео.html So this last one is nice and says a lot. ruclips.net/video/D4lSk48-_0o/видео.html
GrizzlyTV No one that is not in the USA with flat land and the off road is called mudin. Like the squid dad on the Squidbiliy's. Monster mud trucks LOL A lot of $$$ to drive through a big mud puddle.
@@thetowndrunk988 The issue for performance built off road trucks going fast over rough desert and other 4x4 trails here is logical. We do not have a lot of mud and 12" lift is prone to roll with long travel suspension that floats through 3-4 foot whoops at 60 -70 + MPH in control not spilling our drink. Like this --ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE-/видео.html- Many use 2wd's but I and many use the Ford TTB beefed up for strength and still get a lot of travel with 4x4 there when needed in places like this --ruclips.net/video/tGPiooXsEyQ-/видео.html- so nearly all the trucks lifted so high are not very capable with parts needed or able to on mostly stock drive train lifted for running tires are what I call DISCO. They are best for and often seen at the mall parking lots posing as serious off roaders to meet girls. They are not the girls I would want to keep after one night as friends. I like girls that enjoy mostly Punk rock and think that way. To each their own preference I supose it is their time money and choice I am not in charge and my view is my opinion. SO ...--ruclips.net/video/D4lSk48-_0o/видео.html
people in the states seem to like going mad with mods and making a vehicle completely useless. those big V8 pick ups you have still get out pulled in a tug of war buy a 2.5ltr land rover 90
@@thetowndrunk988 yes ground clearance is essential but stupid high lifts just give you high centre of gravity and make the the vehicle more likely to roll. its about compromise, you need enough lift to allow bigger wheels to be fitted and to have enough flex without being too high. just look at all the winch challenge trucks in the UK and Europe people run 35's and 37's at most never have stupid high lifts but set ups that allow loads of flex and those vehicles will go places American lifted trucks could only dream of
So what I'm hearing is: if you want a nice cushy on road experience that is comfortable and easy, then IFS is your game. If you want any actual hard off road capability, you're gonna need a solid axle. Seems like a good summary.
The argument dies when you actually use some critical thinking, why would the US military use HMMWV (Humvee) which is IFS and IRS with geared hubs and still beats out 100% of even moderately modified off road solid axle vehicles....
However, if you noticed, Ronnie said "generally speaking" about 100 times. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but "generally speaking" for most offroad vehicles available the solid axle is simple and more robust.
Mate If that's the case why do you not see humvee's everywhere offroad? They have to use it because it is made in America, not because it is the best. A Landcruiser would destroy it any day of the week
@@xsweetxvampirousx The video is about 4X4. Ever seen a Trophy Truck at the King of the Hammers? Wait nobody would be that stupid. You are talking about something unrelated to the video or the general discussion, try and keep up with the conversation.
Thanks for such a clear well made video showing off all the pros and cons. I want to build a really good off-roader in BeamNG but didn't know If SFA or IFS is better. I tested both in game and I do notice the IFS does handle a lot better but is a lot weaker then the SFA. But also on the solid axle, the front diff hits the rocks more often. I'm going for Solid Axle for my off-road build.
I have always liked Ronny, I prefer coming here than I do 4WD Action. You get real people here, unlike other channels where it’s all scripted and pushing product placement every 30 seconds, it becomes repetitive and fake. Thanks for being genuine Ronny. I would love to get a fourby some time and wheel with you.
Very nice ! Your comparison videos are always full of answers ! as a side note i'll just cite the trophy trucks or the Hummvee as examples that Independant suspension can be tough, but of course those are purpose built and high $$
Yes, they're pretty robust indeed, but havin worked on and off-roaded Humvees, ...they're awesome as hell and extremely capable, but I'm still quite cautious of their IFS & IRS Lol Even though one day I'll have me a M1088 setup as a serious overland rig Lol
IS for trophy trucks is all about unsprung weight for better high speed handling and ride quality just like on road cars/trucks. They're not crawling with them. The H1 system is a whole 'nother animal... that's all about clearance which, you have to admit, it has in spades.
I think both have their benefits. The car I use to film my 4x4 youtube channel has IFS and its never let me down and is more than capable. It's definitely more a personal choice thing that a "one is better than the other" argument
This is the only channel that I am very comfortable watching >10min video. Such brilliant yet simply put is the content. Thanks @Ronny Dahl for introducing me to this wonderful world of 4wding.
you Aussies are just Fantastic. most folks in the US don’t understand how closely we’re related & have in common with y’all dann unda. you guys kill me with your lingo…I love it. i.e. Diff Pumkin. perfect. cheers, Mate.
Before people go "IFS is better" or "Live axle is better", think of what you are doing with it. High speed, lots of bumps, IFS is unbeatable. Lower speed, more intense off-roading, live axle is a go-to.
Might be true somewhat but my GM IFS was so under-built I would go through ball joints and steering parts like a dog goes through a pound of hamburger and that was running 33s. So yeah it would handle bumps and then if I made it home I could get to work on the front end again and again and again, got old after a while.
It depends on the ifs build and what they want to be used for in general for slow rock crawling solid is better but I got off road races like In Trophy trucks they seem to be sporting a beefy IFS
@@outwardpanicjoe8950 I think you are mixing apples and oranges. The vast majority of Trophy Trucks are 2 wheel drive. The reason for that is the CV joints cannot support the long travel used in a TT. You are correct that a 4X TT would have a big advantage over a 2x. At this time it is nullified by the limits of CV joints. This video is IFS vs SA. Not 2 wheel drive off road race cars, we all know who dominates there. Basically IFS suffers where it comes to articulation and strength, which is why Ronny employs a solid axle. If you want to take Timmy to the mall on a snowy day, then by all means IFS is the way to go. If you want to go camping with a heavy load that requires traversing deep sand and big rocks, you'll want that SA. Trophy Trucks are driven on courses where stock VW's drive. For example, the Baja 1000 that has a stock VW class. The length of the course is specifically selected so that it is passable via 2 wheel drive. Ronny's channel is about 4 wheel drive. Are you thinking about getting one?
@@Martinezpainting1989 that's sweet we dont have many small diesel trucks here. What's that engine is that out of? I'm not on any jeep clubs on fb. I just kinda do my own things with friends.
The difference is that one of these is an excellent off road option that will give years of reliability and great clearance and the other is an independent front suspension.
I have to say I was fumbling thru videos to see what the difference was between the two and this video, by far the easiest and very simple to understand. Thank you.
Your videos have been popping up on my feed now and then over the years. They just keep getting better and better. Great basic video, no fluff and too the point.
The most important aspect barely mentioned: WEAR! Here is a list why IFS totally sucks for frequent off pavement use: The bushings mess: 1: The control arm bushings wear out quite fast. Alignment needed after replacement. 2: The upper control arm bushings wear out substantially slower than the lower ones, twice the workshop visits needed. The ball joints mess: The steering knuckle hangs on two ball joints, allowing both steering and articulation: 3: Steering is done through ball joints, as opposed to bearings, and gets heavier as ball joints wear. 4: Ball joints have rubber boots. The boots fail before the metal parts and kill the ball joints prematurely due to lack of grease. 5: Lower ball joints wear out faster than the upper ones, twice the workshop visits needed. The CV shafts mess: The biggest problem are the rubber boots. 6: The outer boots wear out faster than the inner boots. 7: Every time a boot failure is undetected, you start ruining the metal parts. 8: Boot replacement is very labour intensive which is a problem when the CV shaft is old but still good. 9: So there you have CV shaft problems at four different intervals: outer boot bad, inner boot bad, outer CV joint bad, inner CV joint bad. Each time it's a gnarly decision: should I get a cheapo new complete CV shaft even though three quarters of the old one are still good, but the cheapo's quality will be lower? Should I get a new genuine one at a price? Should I have it overhauled? If I replace the boot, should I overhaul the joint while I'm at it? Can I find a rebuilt CV shaft in exchange? The lever mess: The front springs carry a lot more load than the wheel load because they are attached not too far from the middle of the lever that is made up by the lower control arm. 10: Because of the lever action, coil spring rate has to be enormous and the springs wear faster. 11: The lower bushings are generally hopelessly too small for the spring rate and wear out faster than the shock absorbers holding them. 12: If you try to replace these tortured bushings, no one will stock them and your may be forced to get a new shock absorber. 14: The high forces due to the lever can crack the top support of the coilovers on the chassis. The coilovers mess: 13: The coils wear out at different intervals as the shock absorber. Too expensive to always replace both. Twice the workshop visits needed. 14: Many shops can't or don't like to separate and join the springs and shocks and it's not a small job. The steering mess: IFS comes with a steering rack as opposed to a steering box. 15: Tie rod ends wear out faster than the rack end ball joints. Twice the workshop visits. 16: The steering rack does not last as long as a steering box. The rack is generally a replacement item but the steering box can be overhauled. 17: Lots of front end work requires alignment. Generally another time consuming affair in another shop and they will sometimes get it wrong depending on the country you're in. I wrote this as an overlander, crossing country borders for years on end and having no home base. If you live in a 4x4 paradise like Australia you can deal with all of this, but do you want to, provided the car gets lots of hard off-pavement use?
On the same small rocky off road trail in a lifted 4Runner TRD Off Road and Jeep Gladiator with same tire brand and same size tires 285/70 17s, and aired down … I was surprised to see the 4Runner wasn’t substantially more comfortable, and the Jeep had to help the 4Runner out. I am leaning towards trading in ‘22 4Runner TRD Off Road for a Rubicon Gladiator
@@mazambane286 I don't understand? Can you please explain what back and kidneys have to do with it? During the accident or what? Genuine question. Thank you.
@@adrianwysocki1086 Have you ever taken an off-road trip in toyota a product? I wonder why toyota even bother with fitting a suspension. Bolting the axles straight onto the chassis would give a Hilux or Land Cruiser a more comfortable ride.
I always use live axles off road. They are stronger and a pleasure to work on. I get sick of beating my head against the wall replacing wheel hubs that have bonded to the aluminum knuckles on the IFS. Love the videos. Thanks from the U.S.
The IFS system was replaced a few tines on drivers side. I was using napa cv's which were failing after a yr. Switched over to autozone brand for better luck.
I think diff locks are important if taking IFS into regular extreme 4WD situations. The lockers allow you to "carefully" crawl slowly, rather than adding extra speed for momentum to get you through the tough patches. That speed increases the chance of damaging the IFS components and putting the wheels out of alignment. However, one may argue that diff locks can increase the chances of breaking IFS CV joints. That's why I used the word "carefully".
Agreed, lockers are the best thing to do to an IFS vehicle. When used carefully, diff locks will also greatly reduce the chance of breaking CVs. They can increase the force through the CV joint, but in a gradual way rather than a shock load. Almost every time I have seen someone break an IFS CV, it is because they have had a front wheel spin up in the air and then hit the ground bringing it to a sudden stop. This would not happen with lockers.
Good call. With IFS, you are lifting front wheels everywhere. When you lift, you have probably got the wheel in the air spinning and the CVs are at bad angles because you have suspension on one side at full droop. When the spinning wheel meets the earth again, you get traction and the resulting torque spike which does no favours to your CVs. They so often announce their displeasure with that awful crack sound and proceed to spill their innards all over the track. Locking the front takes away the issue for the most part.
Independent suspension conforms to the ground more effectively, which (usually) improves comfort but primarily keeps the wheels stuck to the ground better, which is obviously good for improving traction. It can be made as strong as you need, but it will be heavier due to the extra parts involved. Solid axles are simpler and lighter in heavy-duty applications, and also reduce the risk of the vehicle smashing its differential into the ground on a hard hit, but they are less effective at ensuring maximum traction.
Jeremy Noel Yes I can only drive like this in my old 90's IFS Bronco. I do not want to break or spill my drink all over me. Rides nice at this speed though. ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html or with my girl at dark on a 150 mile off road run takes time too. ruclips.net/video/LtuWtuR2qIg/видео.html Like to see your solid axle maybe I will switch. Others have done it to my truck.
Taking into account that you won't drive your live axle at fast speeds thats an important variable, a live axle can't keep up the pace as an ifs/irs at uneven terrain. By knowing that you can't say one is better than the other coz they were made for diferent things.
@@trainingmatadortb Yes they are for different things and only so capable from the factory or a general lift kit etc.. However when you build an IFS the way the race teams do things change. I have a full size Ford twin traction beam that stock will only handle so much. Many have done SAS solid axle swaps for strength. I did a lift that retains the factory pivot point up high and had the beam ends cut and turned for lift. The radius arms are replaced with long large chromoly ones mounted with large heim joints. The beams are plated and gusseted with skid plate. The slip shaft and U joints are replaced with large F 250 on the pass side. Then you must cycle it while spinning the wheels all ways and clear any obstructions to set your bump stops and limit straps. It is pretty bullet proof with chromoly axles new U joints, ball joints, bearings, and seals all the way out running lockers. I get 17-18 inches of travel. The Raptor gets 13" on nice Fox shocks. I run King shocks. It amazes me many times at what it does taking whoops fast, big rocks and sand.
@@freedomrider266 until they hit the rock pits. Many trails I've been on are impossible in IFS vehicles. They usually get stuck when the live axle vehicles just glide over those same spots. Our IFS guys usually give up and ride along with the jeeps.
I really CANNOT understand how 238 people found this video NOT helpful ... One of the best side by side comparisons . Good job , great Vid . My car has a solid axle in the rear and IFS in the front ... loads of fun ...
Agreed, but I still see great IFS vehicles on the road ten or more years with zero issues. The boots are very robust most of the time and rarely ever leak unless you push them way to hard. Also its super easy to change out a IFS CV axle over a broken Solid one. Though then again the rarely if ever break unless you push them too hard or neglect them.
@Swampy It is about independent suspension in general. Not a special model of a mass production. but I know what you mean, yau are right . I'm more concerned with what's possible.
@@Larcona_ If you are talking about Trophy Trucks, they aren't even 4X4. Baja races are run on dirt roads that a stock VW Bug can negotiate. They are endurance races and have nothing to do with this conversation.
@@Larcona_ AGAIN The video is not about race trucks. It is about overlanding. Trophy trucks have a lot of suspension travel, but when you attempt to put four wheel drive on them you limit the travel. Hence the vast majority are 2 wheel drive. Watch the video again and get back to me.
I don't even own a 4wd and I drive mostly (99.99%) on tarmac. Many of the things you said I had no idea about, but you have a gift in explaining things. You could be a teacher sir.
Hello everyone. If Ronny has his land cruiser with Live Axle, it's the best. Thus, the Live axle is the winner. I have a Hilux, so IFS I know it, I worked a long time in the desert, and there were only Live Axle cars like the Fj 40 or 45 were allowed to go far from the camp (Missions between 200km and 1200km). Live Axle is the good one.
@@timothyrinaldi6609 Wa aleykom Salam Thanks a lot, but I live in Algeria, and for the moment I work with my Hilux and for hard missions I rent Fj 75. In the future perhaps I'll Bye the same Ronny's Land Cruiser. Thanks a lot and take care
Driving a live axle vehicle daily and off road. My dad has an IFS vehicle so I can drive both. Cornering is better and speed bumps are more comfy in the IFS but in general for daily driving the downsides are not that bad. However, off road the solid axle vehicle is heaps better. Overall solid axle wins out because of this.
my 2 vehicles are a prado 120 (gx470) and an 80 series. for mild trails and such the gx is soooo much more comfortable, to the point i dont bother airing down most times, but when it gets chopped or rough going...the 80 is the only way to go
I confess, I _like_ all the bumps and dips on a solid-axel -- it lets you really *feel* the road, no matter what the road. In a modern car with all the bells and whistles, it doesn't feel like I'm doing the driving -- and I like to do the driving.
@@pieterniemandt1733 yeah they have decent power and are light which can be an advantage and are very fun nimble little things good luck getting one for yourself anyway 👍
It's worth pointing out that the main reason that ifs vehicles are built lighter then solid axle rigs. Is because of the market they're intended for. However in extreme off-road competition HD IFS set ups are becoming more and more dominant. It's all really down to the intended use of the components not the design. Personally prefer my solid axle rig. But for touring, beachwork and moderate offroading ifs is king. And like all 4x4s there's room for improvement:)
Yea I’d say it’s good for like Offroad RACING. Like trophy trucks but other than that. Like EXTREME OFFROAD I think solid straight front axle. Stronger, more flex, longevity, reliability, all the good stuff.
I think both have their benefits. The car I use to film my 4x4 youtube channel has IFS and its never let me down and is more than capable. It's definitely more a personal choice thing that a "one is better than the other" argument
@@boganbob2708 that's their decision if it works for them, but I've owned both, I've off roaded both I'll never use anything else besides solid axle again.
Having owned different models in both setups, I can say I definitely prefer IFS for overall comfort and safety. If I was going to own it just for a toy to play with, than solid axle all the way.
That's nonsense. Safety? What's unsafe about a solid axle? And any solid axle with a somewhat modern suspension will be every bit as comfortable and handle as well as an IFS.
@@St.PierreProductions He is probably talking about how the suspension works with the chassis. A solid axle vehicle will not crumple as well in a high velocity accident like an IFS vehicle will.
I’ll take a solid axle any day. It’s a lot safer on the trail. Less chance of breaking shit, less chance of flipping my rig due to lack of articulation on IFS
no such thing.theers no room,longer travel needs more,longer arms.you cant do that with the chassis in the way.you cant raise an ifs,you lose travel,2" raise is 2" less travel...ifs is just cheap & lighter for better fuel eco,.nothing else.ancap ratings,ect..
@@phantomwalker8251 you can with SLA you just have to create an entire new IFS unit with longer arms, expensive but I've seen it done, the better way is Ford coil sprung TTB, it allows ridiculous travel when done properly.
haven't owned a IFS 4x4 but I do love my landrovers (D1 and 90 ) and how they perform off road, especially with deccent long travel suspension as you don't necessarily need lockers due to the tyres being in contact with the ground more of the time
There's a duathalon offroad race in the USA called the "King of the Hammers." This race has a rock climbing leg and an open desert leg, so you have to bring a vehicle that is a compromise. It is a hunt for the "best" go-anywhere vehicle. If you want to find a bunch of folks arguing the merits of independent vs solid front, you don't have to look much further. :-) Typically the vehicles built for either element are quite different from each other. For instance, the open desert "Trophy Trucks" are rear-wheel drive only with solid rear and independent front (with a whole lot of travel to handle going airborne!) Rock crawlers traditionally have solid front and rear with four-wheel drive. What's interesting and fuels many debates is to look at which configuration the vehicles on the leaderboard used over the years. You can find videos for the race on RUclips. Good fun. EDIT: To be fair, the priorities for a race vehicle are different than the priorities for you or I. Cost, robustness, field-repairability without a support team with pit mechanics and a truckload of spares, and so on all factor in for the rest of us. It is probably fair to conclude that a solid axle is a more reliable configuration. It is also true that a solid axle vehicle will go anywhere an IFS vehicle will go, just maybe not so fast or comfortable. It is also arguably easier to service and find parts if you're building a world-roaming overlander. (Gonna find an IFS suspension shop and parts in the middle of Central America?) It doesn't get much more bullet-proof, or uncomfortable and squirly at speed, than leaf-sprung solid axles front and rear. One has to consider their own use-case and weigh the pros and cons accordingly. Whichever is best for you depends entirely on how you will use it.
@@T4nkcommander Not so much as catchin up with tech as havin or wantin to spend the money... IFS can be durable, but it's gonna cost cost and cost...and it still may not be as reliable or as good as a solid axle half the cost. Manufacturers have just gone to IFS/IRS setups because the vast majority of people don't off-road anymore and independent suspensions are cheaper to make; smaller parts that can be contracted out to multiple makers and parts that dont have to be as well built due to so many parts bein tied together "will give it its strength" mentality.
@@GrySgtBubba Don't forget that they like it when the vehicle reaches the planned obsolescence end of life and they get to sell you a new vehicle. rofl.
@@GrySgtBubba Dont agree technology is advancing Fast.Most of the new 4x4s are opting for independant all round because they are a better vehicle all round Live axels are old hat like 75 yrs old uncomfotable and more expensive to fix . Engineering is proving independant suspension is the way of the future .
i think both are awesome. just really depends on how you gonna use your 4x4. if its going to be an all rounder/family/weekend 4x4 adventures. i think IFS should be the choice cause it will handle perfectly to that. if you are need more of a workhorse/4x4 extreme. then the solid axle would be ok for you. just depends on use and comfortability i guess
I wanted live axles and manual transmission in a new vehicle so the jeep was my choice. I am truly happy with my decision. I wanted capabilities over luxury.
I own an IFS Tacoma and I love it, but nobody can deny the superiority of a solid axle. Solid axles have more durability, more articulation, no binding issues, less maintenance. IFS is more comfortable and drives better, but you just cant beat a solid axle for most offroad situations.
Land Rover has proven that articulation is over-rated. Articulation was needed with a solid axle to compensate for the tipping forces when one tire rides up an obstacle, but doesn't matter as much with IFS. Though, one could argue IFS has more useful articulation. Each wheel can move in the same direction or opposite directions simultaneously. Live axle doesn't have that flexibility.
@@josephbaker6083 True, the average consumer probably doesn't flex out their IFS enough to benefit from having a solid axle instead. However, IFS has way too many moving parts that are all vulnerable to trail damage, and ground clearance isn't always consistent like it is with a solid axle. Ball joints, CV axles snapped from overextending during flexed turns, torn boots, tie rod ends... the list goes on and on. For durability the Solid axle is just unbeatable.
@@josephbaker6083 articulation over rated? Is that why pro offroad builds and up with 15+inches of articulation? Because it's over rated and they only need 4?
I have an IFS and I'm converting to Solid axle for more strength, and for the ability to lift for much larger tires. IFS has more parts that are weaker and more prone to breaking.
@@maddiel3027 yes it is weak. Anything with 35s that you actually when with will destroy everything. You can spend 2k in braces. Like pitman arm braces... but it will still suck.
Great clip! Loved my GQ with solid axles, wicked flex and tough as off-road, but as you put it perfectly its what you use it for. I have an IFS truck now used for commuting largely. HORSES FOR COURSES
Hey Ronny, you say no one gets 12" lifts? Well you haven't been to the states. Look on RUclips for mud park or mud run. Our boys and girls in the mid-west and south east states lift their trucks to the sky. 12" would be a small lift, they use military axles and big tractor tires and wheels, some of the trucks you need an extension ladder to get into. Check it out, you'll get a laugh! These are not for over landing, they are purpose built for mud runs. Fun if you like to get covered in mud!!
You make very good points. Of course, in the video he is talking about general offroading. Most offroaders will never enter the kind of mud that dictates a 12" lift and huge Cepek tires. Even then, it is not unusual to break one of those live axle trucks in those mud pits due to the extreme stresses of the supersized tires scooping buckets of mud. There are lots of specialty purpose vehicles on and off road. For folks that go 4-wheeling to explore vistas most folks will never see, and they aren't trying to launch vehicles through the air, either choice offer very good working examples. I own an IFS vehicle, and my next one hopefully will be an LR4, but I recognize the durability of the live axle. I once missed a rut in a logging road in the fading light and hit it at 35 mph in my lifted Escape, and the result was my steering wheel was slightly off the rest of the trip, and I paid $800 to get the front end fixed. A solid axle may have survived the hit. But that is a case of foolishness on my part more than the design of the vehicle. For me, the IFS works well, and if you have to drive it all week, there is no comparison. I owned an 89 F250 Supercab Long Bed, with leaf springs up front. More than once I intentionally launched it through the air with no damage. It was a battleship. But it drove like one. Took 3 blocks to turn around, and the ride was well, pickup-truck like.
Leaf sprung solid axles. It's the original because it was easy and economical to maintain. That is what I like in a off road vehicle simple and economical.
Only need 4 points of attachment per axle for a leaf sprung suspension. You need 10 points of suspension attachments per axle for a coil spring setup. That means 8 bushing per vehicle vs. 20. Sounds less complicated to me. Plus you get more articulation with leaf springs because you have less bushings and no panhard rod to bind up.
SW Idaho Overlanding not overly true with a leaf sprung vehicle you a bush between the chassis and the shackle then a bush between the shackle and the leaf spring so that’s 4 per corner. Then with a coil sprung vehicle you have the bushes that connect the axle to the chassis via radius arms 2 at the axle and 1 at the chassis so 3 per corner. Generally there’s no bush between the spring and the spring seats. This is based on Land Rover suspension. Both leaf and coil.
I will expand on Ronny's point on hitting the sand dunes and compressing the IFS. The general point there is that dependent suspension (solid axle) gives you GUARANTEED / FIXED ground clearance. It may be lower than the nominal ground clearance of an independent suspension. However, you can always (in any situation), count on that fixed amount of clearance with a dependent suspension, while it is very easy for the clearance of an independent suspension to temporarily "shrink" to very low levels. Ronny gave one example with hitting sand dunes. Another classic example is when you drive on a badly undulated gravel road which has side undulations from heavy vehicles' wheels and a high center "crest". With an independent suspension, you are in a constant risk of hitting the crest if the suspension conpresses due to for example sudden braking, going through an undulation, etc. Also, the ground clearance of independent suspension will be constantly lower than nominal as long as the vehicle is carrying a significant load (like five passengers etc.). With dependent suspension, you always have that guaranteed clearance under the axle no matter what.
Iv got a 2017 Hilux. Coming from always having live axle trucks, was pretty apprehensive. Fact is, for me, all of my concerns washed away when I saw how comfortable it is, how well it handles, lower centre of gravity etc. Atleast if they made the 79 with a proper interior and more refinement then it would be hard to beat, but as it stands you have a comfortable, hi-tech modern utes compared to a dinosaur which is no better than any of the older trucks that you can pick up for 10g (apart from the wicked engine)
Totally agree mate. I have the 2016 Hilux too and it's bloody comfortable. I don't go serious offroading but it can still do most tracks no problem and with more comfort than a live axle front vehicle. The most important thing is how you drive your vehicle! That will determine if it breaks or not. Nobody here talks about that. Cheers.
great, simple explanations for someone like me who loves... LOVES to know/learn about pros vs cons if I change "this" to "that." again, GREAT! thank you!! 👍🏼
I note from watching other 4wd videos, that when convoys of cars are negotiating hard tracks, it is generally the IFS ones which choke first. Second, when you see stuck cars being pulled out (eg Fraser Island vids are full of this), it is generally an IFS vehicle on the towed end of the strap.
You can make an ifs vehicle as capable off road as a solid axle although its a bit costly but you cant make a solid axle handle as well no matter what but as long as youre getting out there it doesnt matter
Solid axles are for the seasoned folk who can handle it. IFS is for mall crawlers / highway touring. I have always held that view. Beautifully articulated video.
I think the notion that solid axle vehicles are stronger and more reliable than IFS vehicles is a myth. The real difference is in general driving ability vs. four wheeling ability. Having better articulation would give you an advantage when four wheeling, but would be of little benefit to most people. The better handling of the IFS vehicle is a safety benefit to everybody.
And good driving ability will make up for lack of articulation. That said, I'm willing to bet my stock truck has more articulation and clearance with its front IFS than most of the modded vehicles owned by commenters here...
It's not a myth. More complexity pretty much always means less reliable. Side by side comparison, a solid axle will have stronger ball joints or even king pins, they will have larger CV or U-joints, larger in diameter shafts, and an over all stronger housing. The frames on a solid axle is usually "stronger", more so rigid would be the term. They are usually fully boxed and reinforced. If this wasn't the case, semi trucks and pro rock crawlers would have stopped using solid axles long ago.
My comment is in regard to the statement that solid axle vehicles are in general stronger, more reliable and more robust than IFS vehicles. It is a meaningless statement as the design of the rest of the vehicle has nothing to do with the front suspension design. There are issues with comparing a vehicle like the 70 series Land Cruiser to most modern IFS vehicles. The Land Cruiser 70 series was originally design for military use and would have been designed to different design specifications as modern commercial vehicles on the market. Rather compare it to a vehicle that was designed for a similar role, for example the original Hummer H1. Comparing something that was design for military use to something that was designed for commercial use and then concluding that its better because off one part is pointless. In the near future ifs vehicles will be it. In Australia, there are about two vehicles that have solid axles still available, Toyota 70 series and the Jeep Wrangler. There is hardly any debate on what vehicle to choose as one of the above mentioned would not satisfy many buyers needs because of its limited load specifications and the other is much more expensive than most 4x4’s out there. So, most people won’t even care about the ifs vs. solid axle debate.
Some live axle vehicles have huge articulation, but is it needed? Land Rover IFS vehicles don't need it, and they are hard to beat on the trail. An IFS vehicle allows independent articulation in same direction or opposite directions at same time. You need the big articulation in live axle to counter tipping forces cause the vehicle tips more when climbing an obstacle with one wheel. IFS counters that tipping except in the most extreme cases, and even then I am not convinced the chance of rollover is higher in IFS.
MrTash I am old school too but my 87 Bronco has IFS so I have to take it mellow like this with my chick. ruclips.net/video/LtuWtuR2qIg/видео.html Slow go on a 150 mile first run on this trip. I go a little faster with the guys but not to fast. I do not want to break. Like this but its still fun and I do not spill my drink..ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html
@@brianbirc ttb is great, my f250 still has it, only thing I don't like with ttb is the ride, it's extremely harsh, but it definitely handles large tires and abuse far better than SLA and wishbone setups.
@@ghost-jesus A harsh ride on a TTB ? I must have lost that from my memory. It can be changed 100% with a little $$ and work. A cut and turned lift on the TTB keeps the stock mounting location up high for the beams. Long chromoly radius arms mounted to the frame at the back of the door with big heim joints gives it long travel if you ditch the sway braces. Plate and gusset the beams for strength. Put tall shock mounts or an engine cage for long shocks or coil overs. Run some Deaver springs or a four link rear end. frame to frame upper shock mounts or to a roll cage in the truck.Not Rancho shocks or the like. King, Fox or Sway Away kind of bi pass reservoir shocks. How rough does this look...ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html or these in the sand dunes...ruclips.net/video/tvfO78JNcJQ/видео.html When you have built it right you can pass the jeeple traffic playing this loud and toasting a hello out the window without spilling your drink...ruclips.net/video/D4lSk48-_0o/видео.html
@@brianbirc mines leaf spring ttb, no radius arms or coil brackets, the springs are stiffer to compensate for the twisting load put on them and unless you modify the frame rails coil springs and super-duty springs don't fit, f150 front end springs are considered inadequate for the diesel and 460 engines due to their massive weight compared to all other engine options
@@ghost-jesus There are 250s on springs I thought and 150's where many swap 460's into. If you want some better leafs Deaver springs are the best, I run them in the back with a tall frame to frame shock tower on Kings and it works great. I had to weigh my Bronco whole front and rear and Bret King built them tuned great. I was at the Mint 400 and saw the King trailer and went to thank him. He was happy and introduced me to the KING OF KING. Nice guys. I was home and looking at pics my GF took and there was a pic of BJ Baldwin from 5 feet away. I said nice pic when did you get this and who was it . She said the kids with the guy were cute. I said that id BJ where was I. We were on a mission to King. I said he would have came with or sent a message I imagine he runs Kings too. LOL true though.
@@michaeldose2041 Jeep buggered up the concept of solid axle with CV joints in the Grand Cherokees. You either have to go junkyard hopping and hope to find a model that had u-joints or buy aftermarket axle shafts. You might want to learn about Chrysler cheaping out, just saying.
@@klarahfenderson1374 They did that in 1999 and I am well aware of it. The reason is they wanted to make it more "car' like than it already was. That way your average soccer mom could drive to the store in the snow with all the comfort of a subaru.
Bigger tyres generally fix that issue though, and when I used to have an ifs rig I always found if I needed a little momentum to get up a wet slippery hill for example, if the track had a decent rut, the under carriage always slammed down and dug in under compression and it'd lose all momentum anyway, even with 33's which were pushing the cv's and diff to their limits(I smashed a front center when I lifted a wheel and came down hard on that side) whenever I rarely lift a wheel now, it's still yet to bust with bigger tyres..they're just so much stronger. Now with a solid front end and the ability to run 35"+ tyres without busting shit, my rig goes nearly anywhere without even using the lockers, even in mud and deep ruts.
Till you put a plow on the front, then it's just a roll of the dice to see what breaks on a IFS vehicle. Most IFS you can't, they can't carry the weight. Also with the IFS you can high center a IFS in the snow due to all the skid plates acting like a giant ski. The front axle may plow, but stays in contact much better and the snow can usually flow around a solid axle, not get packed up underneath the vehicle. That's why I am sure most of the smaller truck style wreckers around you are Rams or Super Duty's.
Love your vids, Ronny, but this one is too simple and too generalized. 1. When a live axle drops on one side, the other side goes up." No. At least no more than in an IFS vehicle (because as one wheel drops and more weight is transferred to the "third leg", that spring will obviously compress). What def does happen is that the unloaded side causes the loaded side to change camber (tilt of the wheel - usually inwards at the top). If this happens sharply while cornering... 2. If you hit something hard enough to destroy a live axle, your chassis will most likely NOT remain intact... 3. Flex... or articulation. A German off-road magazine did a test of off-road capabilities of the world's most popular off-road vehicles about 10 years ago. They tried to remain as scientific as possible by using measurements and standardized (concrete East German Army tank proving ground) obstacles. Included were Jeeps, Defenders, Toyotas, Nissans, etc, etc. The winner in terms of articulation (and overall...)? The Range Rover L322. IIRC 330-340mm of articulation. And why should an independent suspension have less articulation than a solid axle vehicle? It is simply a question of design parameters. The Hummer has IFS AND IRS. 4. Lift. Nope. Google "J Auston Fab". You are confusing multiple issues and putting them under the wrong label. Many of today's more robust off-road vehicles still have live axles - due to economics. It's cheaper to build a vehicle with less parts and when you've had the tooling in place since the 1950's... And farmers or miners etc don't care about comfort because they aren't on-road anyhow. The Humvee really is the best example: the tech itself (independent suspension) is superior to live axles in nearly every regard both on- and off-road. Your "hitting a dune at high speed" example may be the only real advantage a live axle has over an independent suspension...
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
This is the first opinion based RUclips video that I agree with all the points. I have nothing bad to say. Thank you and good night
Opinion based?
You gave the best reply 👍
Thanks Ronny for sharing videos and your knowledge.
I’ve been watching your post for many years and it’s really helpful.
Cheers mate!
I don’t know anybody else that could have explained it as well as you just did. You should be a lecturer at Uni.
no,please,no,not a lecturer,he,d have the whole planet driving toyotas.no,please,.there garbage..
not really, just common sense
True
@@phantomwalker8251 lol what I said was commonsense everyone with a brain knows for the power and revs you get for a petrol power plant whilst yes you can tow with it downside you will not make it to the next fuel stop..
they are a people mover only..
for repair ability you will like get the cruiser fix quicker in the country areas than getting any other brand serviced..
toyotas go garbage if you don't maintain them
reality is if you had access to a toyota you could see the great great grandkids driving the vehicle kind of a testiment to it can't say that with other brands unfoortunately
A couple small addenda:
1) Wishbone suspension is one type of independent suspension, but it isn't the only one. The other common versions are MacPherson Strut suspension and Multi-Link suspension. In a MacPherson Strut suspension the shock absorber takes the place of the upper wishbone and the upper portion of the hub carrier. The entire shock absorber twists when the steering turns. The main advantage of this design is its smaller size compared to wishbone suspension, allowing for a wider engine bay and/or a narrower chassis. A multi-link suspension is essentially the same as a wishbone suspension except it has multiple links instead of just two wishbones, which allows for a more complex wheel path as the suspension compresses and/or wishbone-suspension performance in a smaller space, at the expense of durability.
2) There is a form of beam axle called a Torsion-Beam axle, which is partway between a solid axle and independent suspension. The two wheels are mounted to trailing-arms welded to the torsion beam, which allows for some amount of independent movement with the torsion beam twisting when the chassis leans, similar to how a swaybar works in other suspension designs. It is very simple and offers a smoother ride compared to a solid axle, but is not as adjustable as a true independent suspension. It is often used on the rear axles of inexpensive FWD cars, but it can also be used with RWD or 4WD with some modifications to the torsion-beam to allow mounting a differential.
I'm glad you told that bloody Mate off.
Is torsion beam less durable?
@@turboleggy Not really. Ford used it up front for about 20 years in their F150 and Bronco trucks. It is extremely durable but it wears bushings out pretty fast which makes alignments difficult. It provided the comfort of IFS with almost all the capability of SFA. Desert racers still use TTB suspension setups because they articulate so much while maintaining extreme durability.
If I wanted a smooth ride I'd buy a Cadillac. Long live the solid axle
Jeremy Odell That is where we differ. I want a smooth ride like a Cadillac on and off road through the bumps at high speed. Can you do this in your solid axle off road with your GF. ruclips.net/video/LtuWtuR2qIg/видео.html OR this out with the boys ? ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html
I could not do it in a solid axle and would spill my drink way slower.
Agreed
@@brianbirc yeah, I do with my jeep lmao. adjustable remote reservoir shocks with progressive springs on a live axle, gives you all the strength, flex and comfortability, plus you can switch them up to a stiffer position when you get back to the road so they handle better. I'm not saying TTB is trash but maybe you could go faster than 40 miles per at "high speed" if you didn't have it..
@@c4onmylip I can not say I could go faster than 40 MPH if I did not have TTB. I understand the suspension that is sold with nearly all new trucks is not able to do much. The fact that independent front susfull pension soaks up bumps better at high speed is reality. That is why off road race trucks use it. My TTB is not dropped down on a bracket for lift. It is cut and turned keeping the high mount. The short radius arms are replaced with long chromoly ones mounted with large heim joints at the back of the door. My beams are plated and gusseted. My axles all upgraded and new clearance and strapped for droop at 18" up front to protect my shocks on tall towers and lower beam mounts. King Socks by Bret King local to me. 60-70 mph over 3 foot whoops in control and not spilling my drink is common. Glass fenders and bedsides required for 35" tire clearance with a 4" lift. I no longer have my 302. I have a balanced and blueprinted 408 full roller fuel injected with AFR heads fresh intake and headers and exhaust. Here is examples of TTB 4x4 Broncos ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html and here is a group in the sand dunes ruclips.net/video/tvfO78JNcJQ/видео.html
Me and my GF on my 1st run on the 150 mile Mojave Road late sunset short and real time. ruclips.net/video/LtuWtuR2qIg/видео.html
So this last one is nice and says a lot. ruclips.net/video/D4lSk48-_0o/видео.html
@@brianbirc I was just fucking with you man lol, You don't have to give me your whole build sheet.
"No one is gonna lift a vehicle to 12 inches." You should really come to the US...
Lol there are at least a few brodozers I've seen rocking 3-4 foot lifts.
Tractor tires anyone? I agree. I have 8 inches of lift in my truck I drive everywhere, 12 inch lift ain't that much.
Andrew Satkowiak lol probably running 35s 😂
I know someone with a Ford F-250 king ranch with 38s and a 10 inch lift it’s good
No, 38's.
I think what's best between the two is what you can afford in your budget, go and buy that 4wd and have fun with it.
Great Video Ronny.
That is a sensible answer
This is why i have both!
Long travel tacoma for going fast offroad, straight axle 80 series for rock crawling.
Very interesting video. A lot of good points like hitting sand dunes in a IFS that I have never considered before. Excellent.
“No one is going to lift a vehicle 12 inches..”
USA: Hold my beer. 🍺
😂 Horrible idea, but it’s basically a coming of age tradition in some states. 🇺🇸
GrizzlyTV lifted trucks have been around for decades already
GrizzlyTV No one that is not in the USA with flat land and the off road is called mudin. Like the squid dad on the Squidbiliy's. Monster mud trucks LOL A lot of $$$ to drive through a big mud puddle.
@@thetowndrunk988 The issue for performance built off road trucks going fast over rough desert and other 4x4 trails here is logical. We do not have a lot of mud and 12" lift is prone to roll with long travel suspension that floats through 3-4 foot whoops at 60 -70 + MPH in control not spilling our drink. Like this --ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE-/видео.html- Many use 2wd's but I and many use the Ford TTB beefed up for strength and still get a lot of travel with 4x4 there when needed in places like this --ruclips.net/video/tGPiooXsEyQ-/видео.html- so nearly all the trucks lifted so high are not very capable with parts needed or able to on mostly stock drive train lifted for running tires are what I call DISCO. They are best for and often seen at the mall parking lots posing as serious off roaders to meet girls. They are not the girls I would want to keep after one night as friends. I like girls that enjoy mostly Punk rock and think that way. To each their own preference I supose it is their time money and choice I am not in charge and my view is my opinion. SO ...--ruclips.net/video/D4lSk48-_0o/видео.html
people in the states seem to like going mad with mods and making a vehicle completely useless. those big V8 pick ups you have still get out pulled in a tug of war buy a 2.5ltr land rover 90
@@thetowndrunk988 yes ground clearance is essential but stupid high lifts just give you high centre of gravity and make the the vehicle more likely to roll. its about compromise, you need enough lift to allow bigger wheels to be fitted and to have enough flex without being too high. just look at all the winch challenge trucks in the UK and Europe people run 35's and 37's at most never have stupid high lifts but set ups that allow loads of flex and those vehicles will go places American lifted trucks could only dream of
live axles , coil springs ,big rubber, diff locks, You can't beat that combination
I suppose you're going to say an 80 as well? ;-)
You can... It's called having tracks. Lol
Sounds like a G Wagon 😈😈
15 years ago, lol
trophy trucks
best of both
So what I'm hearing is: if you want a nice cushy on road experience that is comfortable and easy, then IFS is your game. If you want any actual hard off road capability, you're gonna need a solid axle. Seems like a good summary.
The argument dies when you actually use some critical thinking, why would the US military use HMMWV (Humvee) which is IFS and IRS with geared hubs and still beats out 100% of even moderately modified off road solid axle vehicles....
However, if you noticed, Ronnie said "generally speaking" about 100 times. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but "generally speaking" for most offroad vehicles available the solid axle is simple and more robust.
Mate If that's the case why do you not see humvee's everywhere offroad? They have to use it because it is made in America, not because it is the best. A Landcruiser would destroy it any day of the week
@@Ghost249 I think, a Unimog will show every humvee off-road, where the rabbit is running.
@@juergen07091973 and a Sherp will show up every vehicle on earth.
Going fast off road: Independent
Going over anything off road: Solid
Ever seen a live axle trophy truck? If you have, it ain't winning.
@@xsweetxvampirousx Most trophy trucks use solid rear axles. Buggies use trailing arms.
Agreed.
I should have specified ''live front axle''
@@xsweetxvampirousx The video is about 4X4. Ever seen a Trophy Truck at the King of the Hammers? Wait nobody would be that stupid. You are talking about something unrelated to the video or the general discussion, try and keep up with the conversation.
Thanks for such a clear well made video showing off all the pros and cons. I want to build a really good off-roader in BeamNG but didn't know If SFA or IFS is better. I tested both in game and I do notice the IFS does handle a lot better but is a lot weaker then the SFA. But also on the solid axle, the front diff hits the rocks more often. I'm going for Solid Axle for my off-road build.
I have always liked Ronny, I prefer coming here than I do 4WD Action. You get real people here, unlike other channels where it’s all scripted and pushing product placement every 30 seconds, it becomes repetitive and fake. Thanks for being genuine Ronny. I would love to get a fourby some time and wheel with you.
Hello!
I owned a FJ80 series. Love solid axel! You can feel the robustness! Cheers from Baja amigo 🇲🇽!!!
Definitely solid axle, not braking down in the middle of nowhere, is my main concern!
Never had issues with my ifs/irs pajero through Africa and Australia... try again
thats a really weak point in my opinion
@Darvin Stjohn If you are in the middle of nowhere you will not be rock hopping. specially if traveling alone.
how does having a soid axle prevent you from breaking down.
yea until you get death wobble on a solid axle
Very nice ! Your comparison videos are always full of answers !
as a side note i'll just cite the trophy trucks or the Hummvee as examples that Independant suspension can be tough, but of course those are purpose built and high $$
Yes, they're pretty robust indeed, but havin worked on and off-roaded Humvees, ...they're awesome as hell and extremely capable, but I'm still quite cautious of their IFS & IRS Lol Even though one day I'll have me a M1088 setup as a serious overland rig Lol
If u havent notice, ifs is for highspeed offroad.
IS for trophy trucks is all about unsprung weight for better high speed handling and ride quality just like on road cars/trucks. They're not crawling with them. The H1 system is a whole 'nother animal... that's all about clearance which, you have to admit, it has in spades.
I think both have their benefits. The car I use to film my 4x4 youtube channel has IFS and its never let me down and is more than capable. It's definitely more a personal choice thing that a "one is better than the other" argument
the humvee,s fronts fall out of them.thats why all 4 are the same,easy to replace.any,,ifs,,breaks..vw beetle,is the best design ifs..
This is the only channel that I am very comfortable watching >10min video. Such brilliant yet simply put is the content. Thanks @Ronny Dahl for introducing me to this wonderful world of 4wding.
you Aussies are just Fantastic. most folks in the US don’t understand how closely we’re related & have in common with y’all dann unda. you guys kill me with your lingo…I love it. i.e. Diff Pumkin. perfect. cheers, Mate.
Before people go "IFS is better" or "Live axle is better", think of what you are doing with it. High speed, lots of bumps, IFS is unbeatable. Lower speed, more intense off-roading, live axle is a go-to.
Might be true somewhat but my GM IFS was so under-built I would go through ball joints and steering parts like a dog goes through a pound of hamburger and that was running 33s. So yeah it would handle bumps and then if I made it home I could get to work on the front end again and again and again, got old after a while.
It depends on the ifs build and what they want to be used for in general for slow rock crawling solid is better but I got off road races like In Trophy trucks they seem to be sporting a beefy IFS
@@outwardpanicjoe8950 I think you are mixing apples and oranges. The vast majority of Trophy Trucks are 2 wheel drive. The reason for that is the CV joints cannot support the long travel used in a TT. You are correct that a 4X TT would have a big advantage over a 2x. At this time it is nullified by the limits of CV joints. This video is IFS vs SA. Not 2 wheel drive off road race cars, we all know who dominates there. Basically IFS suffers where it comes to articulation and strength, which is why Ronny employs a solid axle. If you want to take Timmy to the mall on a snowy day, then by all means IFS is the way to go. If you want to go camping with a heavy load that requires traversing deep sand and big rocks, you'll want that SA. Trophy Trucks are driven on courses where stock VW's drive. For example, the Baja 1000 that has a stock VW class. The length of the course is specifically selected so that it is passable via 2 wheel drive. Ronny's channel is about 4 wheel drive. Are you thinking about getting one?
I love my solid axle in my jeep XJ. But for high speed the ifs wins my vote. Love the videos Ronny. Keep them coming.
Where you from?
@@Martinezpainting1989 Arizona in USA
@@dezrataz thanks I have diesel swap xj om617 check my video. Do you in club xj in Facebook?
@@Martinezpainting1989 that's sweet we dont have many small diesel trucks here. What's that engine is that out of? I'm not on any jeep clubs on fb. I just kinda do my own things with friends.
@@dezrataz is from 85 Mercedes 300sd turbo diesel I live in charlotte nc but is a good engine.
The difference is that one of these is an excellent off road option that will give years of reliability and great clearance and the other is an independent front suspension.
Andrew Rife idk my 23 year old prado is doing just fine off road
IRS handles better and offers better stability on uneven terrain, on top of offering more clearance.
@@grantmctaggart9942 LOL driving on a gravel road doesn't count.
@@Larcona_ Read that in a book somewhere did ya? Spoken like a man with very little off road experience.
@@michaeldose2041 He literally says that in the video. I dont care if you think I have experience or not, what I said is true.
I have to say I was fumbling thru videos to see what the difference was between the two and this video, by far the easiest and very simple to understand. Thank you.
Your videos have been popping up on my feed now and then over the years. They just keep getting better and better. Great basic video, no fluff and too the point.
The most important aspect barely mentioned: WEAR! Here is a list why IFS totally sucks for frequent off pavement use:
The bushings mess:
1: The control arm bushings wear out quite fast. Alignment needed after replacement.
2: The upper control arm bushings wear out substantially slower than the lower ones, twice the workshop visits needed.
The ball joints mess:
The steering knuckle hangs on two ball joints, allowing both steering and articulation:
3: Steering is done through ball joints, as opposed to bearings, and gets heavier as ball joints wear.
4: Ball joints have rubber boots. The boots fail before the metal parts and kill the ball joints prematurely due to lack of grease.
5: Lower ball joints wear out faster than the upper ones, twice the workshop visits needed.
The CV shafts mess:
The biggest problem are the rubber boots.
6: The outer boots wear out faster than the inner boots.
7: Every time a boot failure is undetected, you start ruining the metal parts.
8: Boot replacement is very labour intensive which is a problem when the CV shaft is old but still good.
9: So there you have CV shaft problems at four different intervals: outer boot bad, inner boot bad, outer CV joint bad, inner CV joint bad. Each time it's a gnarly decision: should I get a cheapo new complete CV shaft even though three quarters of the old one are still good, but the cheapo's quality will be lower? Should I get a new genuine one at a price? Should I have it overhauled? If I replace the boot, should I overhaul the joint while I'm at it? Can I find a rebuilt CV shaft in exchange?
The lever mess:
The front springs carry a lot more load than the wheel load because they are attached not too far from the middle of the lever that is made up by the lower control arm.
10: Because of the lever action, coil spring rate has to be enormous and the springs wear faster.
11: The lower bushings are generally hopelessly too small for the spring rate and wear out faster than the shock absorbers holding them.
12: If you try to replace these tortured bushings, no one will stock them and your may be forced to get a new shock absorber.
14: The high forces due to the lever can crack the top support of the coilovers on the chassis.
The coilovers mess:
13: The coils wear out at different intervals as the shock absorber. Too expensive to always replace both. Twice the workshop visits needed.
14: Many shops can't or don't like to separate and join the springs and shocks and it's not a small job.
The steering mess:
IFS comes with a steering rack as opposed to a steering box.
15: Tie rod ends wear out faster than the rack end ball joints. Twice the workshop visits.
16: The steering rack does not last as long as a steering box. The rack is generally a replacement item but the steering box can be overhauled.
17: Lots of front end work requires alignment. Generally another time consuming affair in another shop and they will sometimes get it wrong depending on the country you're in.
I wrote this as an overlander, crossing country borders for years on end and having no home base. If you live in a 4x4 paradise like Australia you can deal with all of this, but do you want to, provided the car gets lots of hard off-pavement use?
I can't help but appreciate how well-written and organized your comment is. Great argument
The bottom line is......all those mechanical components can be replaced. However it is impossible to replace my back and kidneys. So IFS all day long.
On the same small rocky off road trail in a lifted 4Runner TRD Off Road and Jeep Gladiator with same tire brand and same size tires 285/70 17s, and aired down … I was surprised to see the 4Runner wasn’t substantially more comfortable, and the Jeep had to help the 4Runner out. I am leaning towards trading in ‘22 4Runner TRD Off Road for a Rubicon Gladiator
@@mazambane286 I don't understand? Can you please explain what back and kidneys have to do with it? During the accident or what? Genuine question. Thank you.
@@adrianwysocki1086 Have you ever taken an off-road trip in toyota a product?
I wonder why toyota even bother with fitting a suspension. Bolting the axles straight onto the chassis would give a Hilux or Land Cruiser a more comfortable ride.
This answered a LOT of questions I had about it. Thank you!
I always use live axles off road. They are stronger and a pleasure to work on. I get sick of beating my head against the wall replacing wheel hubs that have bonded to the aluminum knuckles on the IFS. Love the videos. Thanks from the U.S.
One of the best eductional videos on RUclips. Well done
these are the best non bias opinions I've come across.
I always have loved SAS system.
I own a IFS 05' Colorado 4wd w/ 2.25" lift, which is the perfect sweet spot. Keeping the CV's in there happy place!
Grey M do u take it on hardcore 4x4 tracks if so how does the ifs go?
@@r.mhaych5021 I've since sold it. But when I had it, we trailed here in AZ on mostly moderate to level 3 trails. Nothing to crazy.
The IFS system was replaced a few tines on drivers side. I was using napa cv's which were failing after a yr. Switched over to autozone brand for better luck.
I think diff locks are important if taking IFS into regular extreme 4WD situations. The lockers allow you to "carefully" crawl slowly, rather than adding extra speed for momentum to get you through the tough patches. That speed increases the chance of damaging the IFS components and putting the wheels out of alignment. However, one may argue that diff locks can increase the chances of breaking IFS CV joints. That's why I used the word "carefully".
Agreed, lockers are the best thing to do to an IFS vehicle.
When used carefully, diff locks will also greatly reduce the chance of breaking CVs.
They can increase the force through the CV joint, but in a gradual way rather than a shock load.
Almost every time I have seen someone break an IFS CV, it is because they have had a front wheel spin up in the air and then hit the ground bringing it to a sudden stop. This would not happen with lockers.
Good call. With IFS, you are lifting front wheels everywhere. When you lift, you have probably got the wheel in the air spinning and the CVs are at bad angles because you have suspension on one side at full droop. When the spinning wheel meets the earth again, you get traction and the resulting torque spike which does no favours to your CVs. They so often announce their displeasure with that awful crack sound and proceed to spill their innards all over the track.
Locking the front takes away the issue for the most part.
Front and rear lockers are always the ticket, for pretty much all types of off road driving. First think I fit when I get a 4WD.
JP Onefourseven Buy a winch first. With lockers, when you get stuck, no one else can get close enough to tow you out.
you won't use your front locker, 95% of the time.
Old School VS New :
Old School= Better and stronger New= Weaker but more comfort
Independent suspension conforms to the ground more effectively, which (usually) improves comfort but primarily keeps the wheels stuck to the ground better, which is obviously good for improving traction. It can be made as strong as you need, but it will be heavier due to the extra parts involved. Solid axles are simpler and lighter in heavy-duty applications, and also reduce the risk of the vehicle smashing its differential into the ground on a hard hit, but they are less effective at ensuring maximum traction.
My old school Ford Ranger
with its TTB front end will go anywhere better than you can take your live axle truck ! 😮👍
Jeremy Noel Yes I can only drive like this in my old 90's IFS Bronco. I do not want to break or spill my drink all over me. Rides nice at this speed though. ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html or with my girl at dark on a 150 mile off road run takes time too. ruclips.net/video/LtuWtuR2qIg/видео.html Like to see your solid axle maybe I will switch. Others have done it to my truck.
Taking into account that you won't drive your live axle at fast speeds thats an important variable, a live axle can't keep up the pace as an ifs/irs at uneven terrain. By knowing that you can't say one is better than the other coz they were made for diferent things.
@@trainingmatadortb Yes they are for different things and only so capable from the factory or a general lift kit etc.. However when you build an IFS the way the race teams do things change. I have a full size Ford twin traction beam that stock will only handle so much. Many have done SAS solid axle swaps for strength. I did a lift that retains the factory pivot point up high and had the beam ends cut and turned for lift. The radius arms are replaced with long large chromoly ones mounted with large heim joints. The beams are plated and gusseted with skid plate. The slip shaft and U joints are replaced with large F 250 on the pass side. Then you must cycle it while spinning the wheels all ways and clear any obstructions to set your bump stops and limit straps. It is pretty bullet proof with chromoly axles new U joints, ball joints, bearings, and seals all the way out running lockers. I get 17-18 inches of travel. The Raptor gets 13" on nice Fox shocks. I run King shocks. It amazes me many times at what it does taking whoops fast, big rocks and sand.
So it all boils down to reliability vs. comfort. Awesome, great video. Cheers from the states!
Thanks for the video. Long live the solid axle!
Hey Matey you hit the nail on the head really good report, I agree having a number of these buggers over the years, good on you.
The intro is amazing!!!
Solid axles are better for off-roading in most ways. But I do fine with my Toyota ifs.
so you dont go off road then,??.
Ford Raptor, Toyota 4Runner, Tacoma, Land Cruiser and FJ are exceptions to the rule...
A well built LT system is a whole different ball game
@@freedomrider266 until they hit the rock pits. Many trails I've been on are impossible in IFS vehicles. They usually get stuck when the live axle vehicles just glide over those same spots. Our IFS guys usually give up and ride along with the jeeps.
It's not that one is completely better than the other, it's what you want to do as a driver
I really CANNOT understand how 238 people found this video NOT helpful ... One of the best side by side comparisons . Good job , great Vid . My car has a solid axle in the rear and IFS in the front ... loads of fun ...
And the visualization with the sticks are the winner!!
You cant beat live axle for strength and durability.
And longevity
Agreed, but I still see great IFS vehicles on the road ten or more years with zero issues. The boots are very robust most of the time and rarely ever leak unless you push them way to hard. Also its super easy to change out a IFS CV axle over a broken Solid one. Though then again the rarely if ever break unless you push them too hard or neglect them.
i just say outlaw rock bouncer. very stable independent suspension.
@Swampy It is about independent suspension in general. Not a special model of a mass production. but I know what you mean, yau are right . I'm more concerned with what's possible.
(please don't tell my k2500 8.1 Suburban because I have fooled it for almost 300,000 miles and more often than not,pulling a 10k + trailer)
Always well explained…. Learning a lot from your vids 👍🏽✌🏼
Daily driver that you take out on the weekends? Obviously ifs.
Dedicated offroad warrior? Obviously solid axle.
Nice vid though Ronny.
Dont baja trucks run ifs?
@@Larcona_ If you are talking about Trophy Trucks, they aren't even 4X4. Baja races are run on dirt roads that a stock VW Bug can negotiate. They are endurance races and have nothing to do with this conversation.
@@michaeldose2041 Aside from the fact that prerunners have an absurd amount of suspension flex and are extremely durable
@@Larcona_ AGAIN The video is not about race trucks. It is about overlanding. Trophy trucks have a lot of suspension travel, but when you attempt to put four wheel drive on them you limit the travel. Hence the vast majority are 2 wheel drive. Watch the video again and get back to me.
@@michaeldose2041 It's almost as though I'm not commenting on the video, like maybe I'm replying to what someone else said.
Thanks for always giving a un biased opinion Ron keep them coming all the way from Africa
I don't even own a 4wd and I drive mostly (99.99%) on tarmac. Many of the things you said I had no idea about, but you have a gift in explaining things. You could be a teacher sir.
Hello everyone.
If Ronny has his land cruiser with Live Axle, it's the best.
Thus, the Live axle is the winner. I have a Hilux, so IFS I know it, I worked a long time in the desert, and there were only Live Axle cars like the Fj 40 or 45 were allowed to go far from the camp (Missions between 200km and 1200km).
Live Axle is the good one.
Mohamed Ali Hebboul salaam aleykem u can swap to live axle conversion from land cruiser for ur hilux I seen some people do it in Australia
@@timothyrinaldi6609
Wa aleykom Salam
Thanks a lot, but I live in Algeria, and for the moment I work with my Hilux and for hard missions I rent Fj 75. In the future perhaps I'll Bye the same Ronny's Land Cruiser. Thanks a lot and take care
Mohamed Ali Hebboul u mean buy not bye but inshallah u will love 75 series land cruiser workmate Ute they are strong 💪🏻
@@timothyrinaldi6609 Thanks a lot, INCHALLAH are the good words yes. Perhaps we'll meet each other with Ronny and his friends in Australia, who knows.
Driving a live axle vehicle daily and off road. My dad has an IFS vehicle so I can drive both. Cornering is better and speed bumps are more comfy in the IFS but in general for daily driving the downsides are not that bad. However, off road the solid axle vehicle is heaps better. Overall solid axle wins out because of this.
my 2 vehicles are a prado 120 (gx470) and an 80 series. for mild trails and such the gx is soooo much more comfortable, to the point i dont bother airing down most times, but when it gets chopped or rough going...the 80 is the only way to go
I confess, I _like_ all the bumps and dips on a solid-axel -- it lets you really *feel* the road, no matter what the road. In a modern car with all the bells and whistles, it doesn't feel like I'm doing the driving -- and I like to do the driving.
I'm pretty happy with the twin traction beam my Broncos has. That suspension is super rugged and can be made to jump bug jumps pretty cheap.
@Darvin Stjohn ttb is also a form of ifs, its really cool ifs hahaha
This information is really informative, for someone who has no knowledge of off road driving.
Full size 1996 Bronco for me thank you. Has not failed me for 20+ years😊
I gotta get me some Bobust CVs so I can run bigger tires
hey man give Ronny a break over a typo LoL good eyes though
Bobust is where it's at man 😉👍
what the hell is bobust cv,s..in the states they have rcv,s,unshitable.they replace the uni,in std 4x4rs.bit expensive but..
Rig Bobust Ralls!
how many bobux for bobust cvs???
This convinced me even more to rather get the live axle Jimny than anything else.
Pieter Niemandt do it , ive got one you won’t be disappointed
@@jamieshepherd3187 lm on a waiting list still but cant wait.
Great have an old jimmy with a 3 inch lift and it's a great performer brilliant little jeep
@@slavwillisalmera9692 Have to say l saw some of the older Jimmy's go through tight spots at the events. And at the same course a bigger 4x4 fails.
@@pieterniemandt1733 yeah they have decent power and are light which can be an advantage and are very fun nimble little things good luck getting one for yourself anyway 👍
Awesome content and well-done videos, thanks Ronny please keep it coming! Learning a ton about this great sport/hobby/lifestyle.
Best use of sticks to explain something I've ever seen.
❤❤
This is one of the most informative video for an off-road newb like me. Thank you much.
It's worth pointing out that the main reason that ifs vehicles are built lighter then solid axle rigs. Is because of the market they're intended for. However in extreme off-road competition HD IFS set ups are becoming more and more dominant. It's all really down to the intended use of the components not the design. Personally prefer my solid axle rig. But for touring, beachwork and moderate offroading ifs is king. And like all 4x4s there's room for improvement:)
Indeed, Independent suspension all depends on what vehicle you buy. My trucks independent suspension is beefy as hell and handles off road no issues
Yea I’d say it’s good for like Offroad RACING. Like trophy trucks but other than that. Like EXTREME OFFROAD I think solid straight front axle. Stronger, more flex, longevity, reliability, all the good stuff.
I'll put my solid Axel against an ifs any time
I think both have their benefits. The car I use to film my 4x4 youtube channel has IFS and its never let me down and is more than capable. It's definitely more a personal choice thing that a "one is better than the other" argument
@@boganbob2708 that's their decision if it works for them, but I've owned both, I've off roaded both I'll never use anything else besides solid axle again.
Having owned different models in both setups, I can say I definitely prefer IFS for overall comfort and safety.
If I was going to own it just for a toy to play with, than solid axle all the way.
That's nonsense. Safety? What's unsafe about a solid axle?
And any solid axle with a somewhat modern suspension will be every bit as comfortable and handle as well as an IFS.
I was gonna say the same thing, what do you mean safety?
@@St.PierreProductions He is probably talking about how the suspension works with the chassis. A solid axle vehicle will not crumple as well in a high velocity accident like an IFS vehicle will.
I’ll take a solid axle any day. It’s a lot safer on the trail. Less chance of breaking shit, less chance of flipping my rig due to lack of articulation on IFS
Ronny, please look into long travel IFS.
Great comparison vid 👌
no such thing.theers no room,longer travel needs more,longer arms.you cant do that with the chassis in the way.you cant raise an ifs,you lose travel,2" raise is 2" less travel...ifs is just cheap & lighter for better fuel eco,.nothing else.ancap ratings,ect..
@@phantomwalker8251 you can with SLA you just have to create an entire new IFS unit with longer arms, expensive but I've seen it done, the better way is Ford coil sprung TTB, it allows ridiculous travel when done properly.
88 k-5 blazer square body with a 12' lift and 04 Tacoma as a daily. Best of both worlds.
New to the off-road game, needed this complete and easy to understand explanation.
haven't owned a IFS 4x4 but I do love my landrovers (D1 and 90 ) and how they perform off road, especially with deccent long travel suspension as you don't necessarily need lockers due to the tyres being in contact with the ground more of the time
Landy Mods
90 200tdi 👍🏻
@@Sean-id1pn cushty! my 90's 300tdi
There's a duathalon offroad race in the USA called the "King of the Hammers." This race has a rock climbing leg and an open desert leg, so you have to bring a vehicle that is a compromise. It is a hunt for the "best" go-anywhere vehicle. If you want to find a bunch of folks arguing the merits of independent vs solid front, you don't have to look much further. :-)
Typically the vehicles built for either element are quite different from each other. For instance, the open desert "Trophy Trucks" are rear-wheel drive only with solid rear and independent front (with a whole lot of travel to handle going airborne!) Rock crawlers traditionally have solid front and rear with four-wheel drive. What's interesting and fuels many debates is to look at which configuration the vehicles on the leaderboard used over the years.
You can find videos for the race on RUclips. Good fun.
EDIT: To be fair, the priorities for a race vehicle are different than the priorities for you or I. Cost, robustness, field-repairability without a support team with pit mechanics and a truckload of spares, and so on all factor in for the rest of us. It is probably fair to conclude that a solid axle is a more reliable configuration. It is also true that a solid axle vehicle will go anywhere an IFS vehicle will go, just maybe not so fast or comfortable. It is also arguably easier to service and find parts if you're building a world-roaming overlander. (Gonna find an IFS suspension shop and parts in the middle of Central America?) It doesn't get much more bullet-proof, or uncomfortable and squirly at speed, than leaf-sprung solid axles front and rear. One has to consider their own use-case and weigh the pros and cons accordingly. Whichever is best for you depends entirely on how you will use it.
Preach. Good summary. It amazes me how long it takes people to catch up with tech.
@@T4nkcommander Not so much as catchin up with tech as havin or wantin to spend the money... IFS can be durable, but it's gonna cost cost and cost...and it still may not be as reliable or as good as a solid axle half the cost.
Manufacturers have just gone to IFS/IRS setups because the vast majority of people don't off-road anymore and independent suspensions are cheaper to make; smaller parts that can be contracted out to multiple makers and parts that dont have to be as well built due to so many parts bein tied together "will give it its strength" mentality.
@@GrySgtBubba Don't forget that they like it when the vehicle reaches the planned obsolescence end of life and they get to sell you a new vehicle. rofl.
Only the best 4x4 race in the world! Welcome to the USA!
@@GrySgtBubba Dont agree technology is advancing Fast.Most of the new 4x4s are opting for independant all round because they are a better vehicle all round
Live axels are old hat like 75 yrs old uncomfotable and more expensive to fix . Engineering is proving independant suspension is the way of the future .
i think both are awesome. just really depends on how you gonna use your 4x4. if its going to be an all rounder/family/weekend 4x4 adventures. i think IFS should be the choice cause it will handle perfectly to that. if you are need more of a workhorse/4x4 extreme. then the solid axle would be ok for you. just depends on use and comfortability i guess
You have the best videos out there.
Can't believe I missed this one. Great video Ronny. Thanks
I wanted live axles and manual transmission in a new vehicle so the jeep was my choice. I am truly happy with my decision. I wanted capabilities over luxury.
My jeep is ifs, but id like to change that.
@@quaidsmith15 which jeep? a renegade?
@@germancavallo8277 a commander.
I own an IFS Tacoma and I love it, but nobody can deny the superiority of a solid axle. Solid axles have more durability, more articulation, no binding issues, less maintenance. IFS is more comfortable and drives better, but you just cant beat a solid axle for most offroad situations.
Land Rover has proven that articulation is over-rated. Articulation was needed with a solid axle to compensate for the tipping forces when one tire rides up an obstacle, but doesn't matter as much with IFS. Though, one could argue IFS has more useful articulation. Each wheel can move in the same direction or opposite directions simultaneously. Live axle doesn't have that flexibility.
@@josephbaker6083 True, the average consumer probably doesn't flex out their IFS enough to benefit from having a solid axle instead. However, IFS has way too many moving parts that are all vulnerable to trail damage, and ground clearance isn't always consistent like it is with a solid axle. Ball joints, CV axles snapped from overextending during flexed turns, torn boots, tie rod ends... the list goes on and on. For durability the Solid axle is just unbeatable.
@@josephbaker6083 articulation over rated? Is that why pro offroad builds and up with 15+inches of articulation? Because it's over rated and they only need 4?
I have an IFS and I'm converting to Solid axle for more strength, and for the ability to lift for much larger tires. IFS has more parts that are weaker and more prone to breaking.
Is it a chevy?
@@keithgrimm5073 do Chevy ifs weak?
@@maddiel3027 yes it is weak. Anything with 35s that you actually when with will destroy everything.
You can spend 2k in braces. Like pitman arm braces... but it will still suck.
That said, Crézy Chameau
makes a good point. Jeff Gordon showed us what a purpose-built Hummer with IFS/IRS can do in a Rally. Great video Mr. Dahl.
Great clip! Loved my GQ with solid axles, wicked flex and tough as off-road, but as you put it perfectly its what you use it for. I have an IFS truck now used for commuting largely. HORSES FOR COURSES
Hey Ronny, you say no one gets 12" lifts? Well you haven't been to the states. Look on RUclips for mud park or mud run. Our boys and girls in the mid-west and south east states lift their trucks to the sky. 12" would be a small lift, they use military axles and big tractor tires and wheels, some of the trucks you need an extension ladder to get into. Check it out, you'll get a laugh! These are not for over landing, they are purpose built for mud runs. Fun if you like to get covered in mud!!
I have seen 12" lift on a nissan Titan with IFS. It was a drop bracket lift. Some people will figure out how to lift anything sky high.
I was gonna tell him the same. 12" or more in the states is pretty common.
You make very good points. Of course, in the video he is talking about general offroading. Most offroaders will never enter the kind of mud that dictates a 12" lift and huge Cepek tires. Even then, it is not unusual to break one of those live axle trucks in those mud pits due to the extreme stresses of the supersized tires scooping buckets of mud. There are lots of specialty purpose vehicles on and off road. For folks that go 4-wheeling to explore vistas most folks will never see, and they aren't trying to launch vehicles through the air, either choice offer very good working examples. I own an IFS vehicle, and my next one hopefully will be an LR4, but I recognize the durability of the live axle. I once missed a rut in a logging road in the fading light and hit it at 35 mph in my lifted Escape, and the result was my steering wheel was slightly off the rest of the trip, and I paid $800 to get the front end fixed. A solid axle may have survived the hit. But that is a case of foolishness on my part more than the design of the vehicle. For me, the IFS works well, and if you have to drive it all week, there is no comparison. I owned an 89 F250 Supercab Long Bed, with leaf springs up front. More than once I intentionally launched it through the air with no damage. It was a battleship. But it drove like one. Took 3 blocks to turn around, and the ride was well, pickup-truck like.
Solid axle all day for me!
Leaf sprung solid axles. It's the original because it was easy and economical to maintain. That is what I like in a off road vehicle simple and economical.
and everyone acts like we get more for our money now a days with these overpriced, yet not as capable trucks.
theres nothing complicatated about coil springs either hahaha, you cant ever justify that cart springs are or ever were good for anything.
Only need 4 points of attachment per axle for a leaf sprung suspension. You need 10 points of suspension attachments per axle for a coil spring setup. That means 8 bushing per vehicle vs. 20. Sounds less complicated to me. Plus you get more articulation with leaf springs because you have less bushings and no panhard rod to bind up.
SW Idaho Overlanding not overly true with a leaf sprung vehicle you a bush between the chassis and the shackle then a bush between the shackle and the leaf spring so that’s 4 per corner. Then with a coil sprung vehicle you have the bushes that connect the axle to the chassis via radius arms 2 at the axle and 1 at the chassis so 3 per corner. Generally there’s no bush between the spring and the spring seats. This is based on Land Rover suspension. Both leaf and coil.
Ahh yes that would make 12. No Panhard to keep the axle in place?
Very good teachings and comparison.. Thank you so much
Excellent explanation and comparison!! Now I understand why my 2012 F-150 feels so much smoother than my 2018 F-250.
I will expand on Ronny's point on hitting the sand dunes and compressing the IFS.
The general point there is that dependent suspension (solid axle) gives you GUARANTEED / FIXED ground clearance. It may be lower than the nominal ground clearance of an independent suspension.
However, you can always (in any situation), count on that fixed amount of clearance with a dependent suspension, while it is very easy for the clearance of an independent suspension to temporarily "shrink" to very low levels.
Ronny gave one example with hitting sand dunes.
Another classic example is when you drive on a badly undulated gravel road which has side undulations from heavy vehicles' wheels and a high center "crest". With an independent suspension, you are in a constant risk of hitting the crest if the suspension conpresses due to for example sudden braking, going through an undulation, etc.
Also, the ground clearance of independent suspension will be constantly lower than nominal as long as the vehicle is carrying a significant load (like five passengers etc.).
With dependent suspension, you always have that guaranteed clearance under the axle no matter what.
I predict the new Ford Bronco with its independent front suspension will have many problems out on the trail.
👍🏻 live axle wins
Unless you like high speed off roading and general comfort
I like it slow and dirty
That's what I told my girlfriend.
Hahaha
@Cole Johnson My truck eats those for breakfast. And probably has yours for a snack.
was good to listen to you today. would have to be one of your best tutorials.Something ifs boys need to learn
Thanks for the Great Video Review Mate,Live Axle Wins for me.
79series probably not the best example of solid axle flexing!
He did use the Defender to show flex!!!
My 70 series front end flexes? Wow that is news to me!
Next you will be telling me there is suspension up there too.
79 series not the best example of a 4x4,really..
Amen, my LC105 would be a better option :p
I think I like solid axle more. Just feels stronger and I personally don’t really care about comfort. A car is meant to drive, not to chil! Haha
Iv got a 2017 Hilux. Coming from always having live axle trucks, was pretty apprehensive. Fact is, for me, all of my concerns washed away when I saw how comfortable it is, how well it handles, lower centre of gravity etc. Atleast if they made the 79 with a proper interior and more refinement then it would be hard to beat, but as it stands you have a comfortable, hi-tech modern utes compared to a dinosaur which is no better than any of the older trucks that you can pick up for 10g (apart from the wicked engine)
Totally agree mate. I have the 2016 Hilux too and it's bloody comfortable. I don't go serious offroading but it can still do most tracks no problem and with more comfort than a live axle front vehicle. The most important thing is how you drive your vehicle! That will determine if it breaks or not. Nobody here talks about that. Cheers.
great, simple explanations for someone like me who loves... LOVES to know/learn about pros vs cons if I change "this" to "that."
again, GREAT! thank you!! 👍🏼
I note from watching other 4wd videos, that when convoys of cars are negotiating hard tracks, it is generally the IFS ones which choke first. Second, when you see stuck cars being pulled out (eg Fraser Island vids are full of this), it is generally an IFS vehicle on the towed end of the strap.
You can make an ifs vehicle as capable off road as a solid axle although its a bit costly but you cant make a solid axle handle as well no matter what but as long as youre getting out there it doesnt matter
Hardcore wheeling solid axles all day. Communiting? IFS....
Hey buddy, stop hating on my Jeep
Whats a jeep...... lol
I'm all about the live axle
Great information passed on. Awesome.
Solid axles are for the seasoned folk who can handle it. IFS is for mall crawlers / highway touring. I have always held that view. Beautifully articulated video.
I think the notion that solid axle vehicles are stronger and more reliable than IFS vehicles is a myth. The real difference is in general driving ability vs. four wheeling ability. Having better articulation would give you an advantage when four wheeling, but would be of little benefit to most people. The better handling of the IFS vehicle is a safety benefit to everybody.
And good driving ability will make up for lack of articulation. That said, I'm willing to bet my stock truck has more articulation and clearance with its front IFS than most of the modded vehicles owned by commenters here...
It's not a myth. More complexity pretty much always means less reliable. Side by side comparison, a solid axle will have stronger ball joints or even king pins, they will have larger CV or U-joints, larger in diameter shafts, and an over all stronger housing. The frames on a solid axle is usually "stronger", more so rigid would be the term. They are usually fully boxed and reinforced.
If this wasn't the case, semi trucks and pro rock crawlers would have stopped using solid axles long ago.
If you don't think they're stronger and more reliable you're lacking in experience plain and simple
My comment is in regard to the statement that solid axle vehicles are in general stronger, more reliable and more robust than IFS vehicles. It is a meaningless statement as the design of the rest of the vehicle has nothing to do with the front suspension design. There are issues with comparing a vehicle like the 70 series Land Cruiser to most modern IFS vehicles. The Land Cruiser 70 series was originally design for military use and would have been designed to different design specifications as modern commercial vehicles on the market. Rather compare it to a vehicle that was designed for a similar role, for example the original Hummer H1. Comparing something that was design for military use to something that was designed for commercial use and then concluding that its better because off one part is pointless. In the near future ifs vehicles will be it. In Australia, there are about two vehicles that have solid axles still available, Toyota 70 series and the Jeep Wrangler. There is hardly any debate on what vehicle to choose as one of the above mentioned would not satisfy many buyers needs because of its limited load specifications and the other is much more expensive than most 4x4’s out there. So, most people won’t even care about the ifs vs. solid axle debate.
Some live axle vehicles have huge articulation, but is it needed? Land Rover IFS vehicles don't need it, and they are hard to beat on the trail. An IFS vehicle allows independent articulation in same direction or opposite directions at same time. You need the big articulation in live axle to counter tipping forces cause the vehicle tips more when climbing an obstacle with one wheel. IFS counters that tipping except in the most extreme cases, and even then I am not convinced the chance of rollover is higher in IFS.
I'm old school i like live Axle in off-road
MrTash I am old school too but my 87 Bronco has IFS so I have to take it mellow like this with my chick.
ruclips.net/video/LtuWtuR2qIg/видео.html Slow go on a 150 mile first run on this trip.
I go a little faster with the guys but not to fast. I do not want to break. Like this but its still fun and I do not spill my drink..ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html
@@brianbirc ttb is great, my f250 still has it, only thing I don't like with ttb is the ride, it's extremely harsh, but it definitely handles large tires and abuse far better than SLA and wishbone setups.
@@ghost-jesus A harsh ride on a TTB ? I must have lost that from my memory. It can be changed 100% with a little $$ and work. A cut and turned lift on the TTB keeps the stock mounting location up high for the beams. Long chromoly radius arms mounted to the frame at the back of the door with big heim joints gives it long travel if you ditch the sway braces. Plate and gusset the beams for strength. Put tall shock mounts or an engine cage for long shocks or coil overs. Run some Deaver springs or a four link rear end. frame to frame upper shock mounts or to a roll cage in the truck.Not Rancho shocks or the like. King, Fox or Sway Away kind of bi pass reservoir shocks. How rough does this look...ruclips.net/video/OIYPKwUbzNE/видео.html or these in the sand dunes...ruclips.net/video/tvfO78JNcJQ/видео.html
When you have built it right you can pass the jeeple traffic playing this loud and toasting a hello out the window without spilling your drink...ruclips.net/video/D4lSk48-_0o/видео.html
@@brianbirc mines leaf spring ttb, no radius arms or coil brackets, the springs are stiffer to compensate for the twisting load put on them and unless you modify the frame rails coil springs and super-duty springs don't fit, f150 front end springs are considered inadequate for the diesel and 460 engines due to their massive weight compared to all other engine options
@@ghost-jesus There are 250s on springs I thought and 150's where many swap 460's into. If you want some better leafs Deaver springs are the best, I run them in the back with a tall frame to frame shock tower on Kings and it works great. I had to weigh my Bronco whole front and rear and Bret King built them tuned great. I was at the Mint 400 and saw the King trailer and went to thank him. He was happy and introduced me to the KING OF KING. Nice guys. I was home and looking at pics my GF took and there was a pic of BJ Baldwin from 5 feet away. I said nice pic when did you get this and who was it . She said the kids with the guy were cute. I said that id BJ where was I. We were on a mission to King. I said he would have came with or sent a message I imagine he runs Kings too. LOL true though.
I would rather have a solid axle with U Joints and stay away from cv and birfield joints al together.
I couldn't complain about the outboard CV joints in my 96 Jeep Grand Cherokee, it never had any issues but it was a solid axle and not modified.
@@wildbill23c Those are U-Joints not CV joints. You might want to learn the difference, just saying.
@@michaeldose2041 Jeep buggered up the concept of solid axle with CV joints in the Grand Cherokees. You either have to go junkyard hopping and hope to find a model that had u-joints or buy aftermarket axle shafts. You might want to learn about Chrysler cheaping out, just saying.
@@klarahfenderson1374 They did that in 1999 and I am well aware of it. The reason is they wanted to make it more "car' like than it already was. That way your average soccer mom could drive to the store in the snow with all the comfort of a subaru.
Another timeless video. Thx for the info.
Great job explaining the difference
Solid axles dont do as well in mud or snow as the housing acts as a plow. Ifs can slide over snow or mud much easier. As for me, I like rocks
Bigger tyres generally fix that issue though, and when I used to have an ifs rig I always found if I needed a little momentum to get up a wet slippery hill for example, if the track had a decent rut, the under carriage always slammed down and dug in under compression and it'd lose all momentum anyway, even with 33's which were pushing the cv's and diff to their limits(I smashed a front center when I lifted a wheel and came down hard on that side) whenever I rarely lift a wheel now, it's still yet to bust with bigger tyres..they're just so much stronger.
Now with a solid front end and the ability to run 35"+ tyres without busting shit, my rig goes nearly anywhere without even using the lockers, even in mud and deep ruts.
Except the rear axle has to plow the snow anyway, unless you have IRS, which any quality 4WD won't, so a moot point.
Shots fired against the Subaru Brumby and late model Patrols, Pajeros and Land Rovers.
Where he's at, not much snow to test. But i'm canadian and aprove of your point violantly 😂👌
Till you put a plow on the front, then it's just a roll of the dice to see what breaks on a IFS vehicle. Most IFS you can't, they can't carry the weight. Also with the IFS you can high center a IFS in the snow due to all the skid plates acting like a giant ski. The front axle may plow, but stays in contact much better and the snow can usually flow around a solid axle, not get packed up underneath the vehicle. That's why I am sure most of the smaller truck style wreckers around you are Rams or Super Duty's.
But live axles LOOK cool and that's what's most important in the end.
Damn straight hahah
Yup, especially with some portals, e-lockers and gussets
and live axle is the best offroader to
That's probably the most fair, opinionated answer
I wanted ifs for what I'm doing, mix of daily and fire road running, but live axle just looks badass
@Donnie Montoya
They certainly do.
Love your vids, Ronny, but this one is too simple and too generalized.
1. When a live axle drops on one side, the other side goes up." No. At least no more than in an IFS vehicle (because as one wheel drops and more weight is transferred to the "third leg", that spring will obviously compress). What def does happen is that the unloaded side causes the loaded side to change camber (tilt of the wheel - usually inwards at the top). If this happens sharply while cornering...
2. If you hit something hard enough to destroy a live axle, your chassis will most likely NOT remain intact...
3. Flex... or articulation. A German off-road magazine did a test of off-road capabilities of the world's most popular off-road vehicles about 10 years ago. They tried to remain as scientific as possible by using measurements and standardized (concrete East German Army tank proving ground) obstacles. Included were Jeeps, Defenders, Toyotas, Nissans, etc, etc. The winner in terms of articulation (and overall...)? The Range Rover L322. IIRC 330-340mm of articulation. And why should an independent suspension have less articulation than a solid axle vehicle? It is simply a question of design parameters. The Hummer has IFS AND IRS.
4. Lift. Nope. Google "J Auston Fab".
You are confusing multiple issues and putting them under the wrong label. Many of today's more robust off-road vehicles still have live axles - due to economics. It's cheaper to build a vehicle with less parts and when you've had the tooling in place since the 1950's... And farmers or miners etc don't care about comfort because they aren't on-road anyhow. The Humvee really is the best example: the tech itself (independent suspension) is superior to live axles in nearly every regard both on- and off-road. Your "hitting a dune at high speed" example may be the only real advantage a live axle has over an independent suspension...
I'm glad the new Jimny still uses the old Live Axles 💪😄
oh thank you, the first video I've seen that actually explains why.