I read this book. John Wathey has to be one of the most patient, careful and painstaking of authors. This is a beautiful and important book. It has a permanent place in my library and I will donate copies to organizations as much as I can.
My son will never have to go to a religious camp! His school has a bible study group that meets after school. I would like to go and sit in on one of the classes and see what exactly goes on. I would probably just burst into flames.
I use to fall asleep with a smile on my face, because I felt God was in the room with me. The love felt so real, it was a warm and cradling sensation. There was so much conviction behind that feeling, knowing for an absolute fact that this being of surrounding energy loves you. Not the kinda love that you feel from a spouse or parent, this feeling felt so deep and personal. This being had a plan for my life. If I stood at a fork in the road, I was content with whatever path I took, because IT knew where I was going. Nothing was ever a bad choice, all was part of a divine plan. If I was having a bad day, it was somehow in control and played a part in my ultimate purpose and I felt content with alot. Non-believers who were never born again Christians have this objection to a sky daddy always watching you, knowing your every move, every dirty and humiliating thought. And this disgusts some people and I understand why they resent this concept. They are perceiving it as if another human was watching you. But as a former Christian I never saw it this way. This God is above human humility and embarrassment, we can't compare God to human emotion. A god watching over us is not like another human watching us while taking a shit. There is a deeper significance. Yes feeling God while on the toilet is a thing for Christians too. Your not blessing your poop, nothing like that. It's walking with this being in every aspect of your life, like how a baby would want their loving mother in the room even when they're sitting in their diapers. And as a Christian you want this, to feel uplifted everywhere and in everything. I had a more deistic idea of Christ rather than theistic, Born again believers really have their own perspective that most people cannot grasp unless they've been there themselves. Believers just can't get around the fact that non of these feeling requires a God to work and not to mention the God their creating in their heads (the God I was creating in my head) is not at all like the God of the Bible. They feel their feelings and try to interpret the Bible according to their feelings. "If God makes me feel this way, then Gods word must reflect this somehow. Thus we have apologetics to make a narrative that matches the feelings of the good loving God they feel. After all if you feel your spouses valid love and they express that they are moral and truly good, it would be hard to except that they took part in a murder. Any partner would deny and not except that their spouse did horrible things, because of the way they made them feel. People can avoid or seek out associations. Like the 'Little Albert experiment' where a baby learned to associate fear with fluffy white things. The opposite can also be true. People can learn to associate good feelings with an object or idea. The "God Feeling" is something all humans are capable of experiencing. It depends were we experience it that we plan our flag. If the idea of Jesus and Biblical teachings comes to be associated with the good "feels" then people will seek out what they think is causing that and defend it, because it is a reflection of the love they feel. Born again Christian thought process >>>""The God of the Bible makes me feel this love and joy, the Bible is a reflection of these feelings , it has to be good somehow we just can't understand it."" These feelings for Christians is considered powerful evidence. Understanding it's all in the head would be like a skeptic trying to understand how reality is all in the elbow. Most people are self psychologically illiterate, they cannot understand their own brain processes and it's flaws. To them psychology is a thing that effects other people in movies or institutions, but not themselves. Most people are as ignorant about psychology as they are evolution. When we associate these feelings we also assume that because this association is exclusive (or appears exclusive to the specific faith) that no one else experiences it the way we experience it. It feels real to us so we assume it's real and therefore everyone else must be false or confused. But we never take the time to think that maybe why other faiths claim feelings is because their convinced like us by the same sensations. They never really consider that maybe the point of the sensation is to truly feel real but not be and could be why everyone else claims to feel it too. That thought never comes to mind. And I think it's common for humans to assume they hold the standard of experience and knowledge. The Drunning Kruger effect is more than just for education. People can think they hold the standard to the "real" divine presence. I think being a former Christian allows people to reach certain areas in these studies that people who were never there cannot reach.
Your very welcome. I really loved your evolutionary assessment on the God feeling. I do plan to buy your book even though you said it's not necessarily academic I still feel I could learn more in depth on this subject. While it does make sense, it doesn't explain how people strongly associate the "God feeling" to a specific idea or dogma. But I suppose ancient tribes would have put it somewhere in a world without immediate answers. As a reflection of the way I believed this is why i've hypothesized associative behavior. "We have this un-explained feeling of a strong presence, so it must be a result of what i'm believing or what i'm involved in." And that can give the illusion that we were chosen to feel this love or divine acceptance because we were doing things the right way. When I felt that safe and secure presence of God as I mentioned in my last comment, I was assured I was doing the right things and thus accepted by this divine being and ultimately not worried of going to hell. It's when you stop feeling God that you worry for your soul again. "I must have done something wrong and now i'm not longer in His acceptance, thus no longer safe." Humans do have the tendency to center things around themselves and through evolution we do it for survival purposes so maybe this associative behavior does stem from an evolutionary cause after all.
"I use to fall asleep with a smile on my face, because I felt God was in the room with me. The love felt so real, it was a warm and cradling sensation." you just described ,what drugs like heroin or xtc doo XD think about that ;)
Excellent post! I've read hundreds of comments on pages like this and this is one of the best explanations I've seen, from a former Christian. (I actually thought you were going to Defend The Faith until I read it all the way through.)
I appreciate commentary of people with experience of family influence from religious institutions. I am convinced that being disillusioned is a good thing and that all that may be known is evident in nature. I just bought the book.
There is a certain satisfaction in knowing that you've avoided falling for a con which so many other people have succumbed to. Religion may just be the biggest con of 'em all!
I loved this podcast. I am studying Psychology and I am also an early childhood teacher so I have studied attachment theory. Also I think it explains why a friend of mine who has experienced many forms of rejection is so emotional and defends there belief as if you are attacking them. When I was a believer I enjoyed conversations with non believers although at the time I was immune to thier sceptism. Very much looking forward to reading Jack's book.
Having read several books on this topic, it's hard to ignore the logic behind this obvious conclusion. It makes so much more sense than believing in a 'Heavenly Father' in the sky. Thanks for this interview, as always.
Certainly fits with my own path of childhood Christianity (always dissatisfactory) to Wicca (Great Mother a vast improvement over my mother, real or imagined) until I "grew up" enough to accept my preexisting atheism.
Thank you, uncleanunicorn! Darrel has been enormously generous and helpful! I am in his debt and yours. And now I'm indebted to Seth, too, for asking such great questions in this interview.
this man is a fucking genius. literally from the minute I left religion 2 years ago I have been trying to understand why - in a biological, evolutionary sense- people are religious and believe in gods. He answered this in like 15 minutes.
+Cosmic Rogue that is a great video, I realized halfway thru that I've seen it before but I appreciate the suggestion. This TTA show shocked me because it is a brand new theory that I had never considered or heard of before, this is such a fascinating field of study isn't it?
Natasha Williamson Absolutely! I think it's crucial to understand _why_ religion is such a fixture in human culture. I think understanding human biology, and psychology, not only helps reveal how the brain works, but why religious thought happens. It is both fascinating and important because I think it will help some forceful and aggressive atheists be more compassionate and patient when dealing with religious people.
as an atheist, and as someone who accepted years ago that human thoughts and emotions are a by-product of the body's chemistry, i think that thought and feelings are still important to our understanding of ourselves, and to our understanding of the concepts that shape our understanding of the universe. including science and our practical uses of it. to my mind theology isn't an attempt to understand a god that exists, but an explanation of the reasoning that led to the creation of the god concept. for that purpose, an understanding of history, philosophy, psychology, and archeology is often called for.
Fascinating. I've had a small taste of the feeling of the presence of something bigger and other in a pre-atheist life. I've never forgotten it. I've downloaded the book and I'm looking forward to reading it.
I've read this book, and use it constantly as a reference. This is a major research work and I find Dr Wathey's discoveries illuminating. I've always felt there was a biological root or two to religion, and that it is a natural phenomenon that affects people worldwide. His treatment of dualism is especially important, since religions depend on the idea that individual persons have "souls". Everyone should read this book. 🎉
I prefer the word delusion because this proclivity is so very enduring and can be made permanent, resisting all attempts to lay it aside. An illusion has the connotation of being much more temporary and evanescent. A magic trick is an illusion, we are fooled, we see the end, gasp, laugh, applaud, understand what we thought we saw wasn't what was. A mirage is an illusion, that when we reach it, isn't there, and we realize we were fooled. But this God thing, this God Virus (loved that book) is deep, deep, self protective, will change enough to keep us fooled, and will help us to want to stay fooled. Over all, I think 'delusion' is fitting. This was a great interview.
I have a feeling he went with ‘illusion‘ simply to make it sound as different as possible from the name of the well known book “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins. “The Delusion of God’s Presence” sounds too similar.
This is very interesting on the survivability of the religions we have today. Like the ones who survive maybe play to our innate biology more than others and thus make it easier to survive. I feel like Christianity does this very well. It explains nature. It gives you a "mother/father figure" and it satisfies your natural tendency towards guilt for doing something wrong. So I can see why it's successful to an extent. I'm getting this book right now. Very fascinating.
What saved me from this illusion is general knowledge. In all aspects of what is everywhere there is chaos. Nature, society, ... everything is in discord. If an all powerful deity does exist it is not acting to restore order which is pretty much useless. Puzzling is it? He is right when he says that our own brain betrays us in order to sometimes save us during the early days of man’s ecistence. The more knowledge a brain has the less it needs to betray us.
I agree with Kariah, the questioning towards this subject were hugely, thoughtful, logical and got to the "nitty-gritties". Superb podcast with so much valuable and intellectual debate.
27:11 My religious experience was not an "intense longing" or "longing" of any kind. It was a 'oneness' sort of thing and it was very overwhelming. I was an atheist before it and an atheist after it but while it was happening I said aloud "I can never deny the existence of God again".
Yes, the oneness experience so many of my friends have had I have paralleled to the kundalini, awakening and so forth. And yogis will even admit that this is the aim of their spiritual practice. I have never had this experience and I’m afraid if I ever do, it will be much harder to be“intellectual“ as I am now. I am a musician in a Pentecostal environment, even now, but I have excepted it as a means to worship my creator in a very broad way. I have made it clear to my superiors that I do not participate in embracing common dogmatic ideas, so I have a small degree of authenticity living in two worlds as a private non-Christian and a public Christian.
I've been listening to this podcast on iTunes for years. Can't believe it's taken so long to find it on RUclips. Unfortunately it was because of Steve Shives. Keep up the good work.
I listened to the whole podcast but didn’t hear the question that most interested me: what happens when some people’s minds contradict the explanation this author suggests? I was raised a Catholic during my very early years (in the 60s, when Catholicism was pervasive as the official state religion in Spain) but by the age of 9 I had started questioning, realizing that things did not make any sense and by the time I was 14 I had completely abandoned religion, in what I jokingly call ‘a precocious onset of critical thinking’ (the only times I picked the bible as a child, outside of religion class, was to read the ‘saucy bits’). I came from a normal family, was nurtured as a child and all, but I have never felt the need for a god nor understand the longing or need so many have for a ‘superior’ being or thing, even after they become non-believers. So, what could be the reason? Is it that some of us don’t need the ‘religion drug’? Could it happen to those that are not prone to addiction? I have no proof of that, of course, only my own experience of never becoming addicted to addictive substances: coffee, soda, tobacco, sugar… or opioids, even after taking several of them (with no effects whatsoever) for months for chronic pain.
very enjoyable and educational. Also very respectful of those experiencing these illusions. it is easy to ridicule but handlec it with sensitivity.I will be buying his book.
The human body, is nothing but a set of chemical reactions. The chemical reactions powering a human life are no different from the reactions powering the life of a bacterium, a mosquito, a mouse, a dog or a chimp. When a human being dies, the chemical reactions stop. There is no "soul" mixed in with the chemicals, just like there is no soul in a bacterium, a mosquito, a mouse, a dog or a chimp. Why would there be an afterlife for the chemicals that make up a human body? The whole notion of your "soul" is completely imaginary. The concept of a "soul" has been invented by religion because many people have trouble facing their own mortality. It makes people feel better, but the concept is a complete fabrication. It is when you think about the chemical reactions powering your life and your brain that you realize how completely imaginary your "soul" truly is. And at that point, everything about religion comes unraveled. Think back to when you were a kid and you realized that Santa was imaginary. As soon as you knew it, it was obvious. Reindeer cannot fly. A man cannot slide down chimneys. There is no way for one little sleigh to carry all the toys for all the kids in the world. Etc. It is obvious that Santa is make believe. In the same way, it is obvious that human beings are big, walking chemical reactions (see this article for a description of how the reactions work science.howstuffworks.com/life/cellular-microscopic/cell.htm ). Your "soul" is make believe just like Santa. When the chemical reactions cease, you die. That is the end of it. Knowing this, you can see that everything about religion is imaginary. God, the Bible, Jesus, the resurrection, prayer, the Ten Commandments, the creation story, your soul, everlasting life, heaven... every bit of it is the product of human imagination. The same goes for Allah, the Koran and so on. As a species we have believed all of this religious dogma for centuries, and most of us believe it today to some degree. And yet... it is all fiction. Today's "God" is just as fictional as were the gods of the Egyptians, the Romans and the Aztecs. "FAITH is believing in a God that you know for a fact is not real" Lou Rummel
Wrong. Admittedly, the advent of central heating did cause Santa considerable problems, but then he got the transporter device from Star Trek and since then it's been presents as usual! Also, most humans are led mainly by instinct, i.e. the overactive agency detector, the deep desire to live forever, etc.
The main thing that makes life different than mere chemical reactions like those occurring in a test tube I think is the existence of consciousness. While chemical reactions and electrical signals occurring in our brain may correlate with our experience of the taste of chocolate, or the sound of music, they are not identical. The brain produces the mind, but the mind is not identical with the brain. The mind or consciousness, thoughts and feelings, have a seemingly immaterial quality to them. To me this is the main “hope”, if you will, that there may indeed be something more to what we are, and which the phenomenon of near death experiences seems to support. The commonalities in NDE accounts are difficult to explain away.
Kitty BooBoo Your claim that "God HAS indeed revealed Himself to me." is no different from the claim of catechumens in other religions! No different! You make fantastical claims that you can't back up with any evidence (like the existence of your god), and you complain that we're somehow wrong for pointing this out to you? And my particular complaint with _you_ is that you will undoubtedly vote for someone with a similar delusion. Yes, I said delusion. Believing things without any evidence is a delusion by definition (see the DSM-5). Imposing your views on others through the political system is just plain wrong - and you'd wholeheartedly agree, if it was Sharia being imposed on you. You probably don't see that you're doing the same thing. You have no evidence of anything truly miraculous, you've seen no evidence of anything miraculous, and you don't recognize your *confirmation bias* (look it up). You may think that my post is "angry", but I think of it as _helpful_, if a bit firm. And I'll go further and say that if you can point out any discrepancies between my view and reality, I'd appreciate it. You can't say the same thing and maintain your delusion.
Kitty BooBoo When people are in a less than healthy state of mind, they're likely to say all sorts of stupid things. I wouldn't fault your dad for saying anything with which you may agree *or* disagree. But we who are still possessed of rational faculty must consider the evidence and make decisions accordingly. Atheists are not a group of any sort because all it means to be an atheist is we have not received sufficient convincing evidence that any god(s) exist. There are Republican atheists, Democratic atheists, scientist atheists, and stupid atheists, but there's nothing that binds the "group" together except for not believing in what we think of as fairy-tales. Instead of railing against people for not believing in your particular deity, perhaps your time would be better spent providing evidence for the existence of your gods - if that's even possible. Just a suggestion.
There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed. - Bertrand Russell
I was raised in the Christian religion and believed it for years. One of the very first occurrences that made me start slightly doubting it's authenticity was when I was 9 years old back in the mid 1980s, I found out tragically that a 12 year old boy at my school died suddenly by getting his neck caught on a rope and suffocating to death. How could any God upstairs allow something that horrific to happen and not give a darn???
This idea of social parenting, wouldn't it mean that the infant is more able to view surrogate mothers as mothers? If we are able to be handed off to grandmothers and other surrogates, wouldn't that mean that we have an evolved tendency to project this mother/god idea? Michael Shermer has done some great writing on our evolved tendency to see agency in random events. What Dr. Wathy is saying here would be complimentary to that. We not only project agency but also paternalism. We see random events as happening because of a deliberate agent. and we see the agent as benevolent, a parent due to our tendency to accept surrogate parents because of social parenting.
I sent my kids to a @Christian Football Camp” which seemed to be teach football and then scare the hell out of them after dinner. My older son was oblivious but my younger didn’t sleep for weeks after he got home. Who the hell would preach Armageddon to 8 year olds?
Wow. What are the odds? I have been a fan of TTA but this is my first time listening to the podcast. I did go to Falls Creek in Oklahoma as a young teen though.
My cat is a mature tom, but responds to petting as a kitten does to it's mother. This is that phenomenon in another species. Pets, mainly cats and dogs have been bred to retain infantile behaviors. Forced neoteny.
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
How do religious parents visualise their baby in the afterlife? It has no personality, it has no memories. What interaction do they think that they can have? Do they think they'll just carry on in the afterlife as they did before? Do they think the baby will 'grow up' in the afterlife? Or do they imagine their child existing in permanent infancy?
Only the perfect answer would do, it would wait until the parents both join it, because true christians never lose the faith, and all christians are true christians until they are not… When they were both there because of course they were always true christians, the baby would only then begin to grow. Except without piles of green angel poo. Babies of Atheists go to hell when they die, because their fictional god is perfectly just. It must be so for the horrible sin of not being gullible enough to believe the bible word for word while ignoring or rationalizing away all the really shitty parts of it like the slavery and conquest rape and the killing of children in war time, and we know that their evil fictional god punishes children for the fourth and fifth generation. It says so in the book they are so desperate to believe that they ignore most of it. All because they really like the part that says they'll live forever in the clouds above the flat earth.
For quite some time I have been arguing about exactly what he was studying about. Off course I couldnt know in depth what exactly was going on in our brain or how is it connected to the evolution,but I always thought that we long for that something akka god cuz we are basicly created by our parents. Off course mothers play a bigger role in this,but that is the depth I couldnt go to without research. Very interesting topic. I hope there is more research about it so that we can for sure once and for all unravel this missconception that a loving god created us. Anyone can and has to at this point admit that a god that just created everything and does nothing could exist. However,saying that is not important because it wouldnt change our lives in any way unless you believe in a personal god :) Btw,I am an atheist. Just because I admit that a non personal god could have created our universe doesnt mean that I cant be an atheist.
I was an atheist from my earliest memories of talking or thinking about god. I can remember saying there is no god when I was about 7. I was adopted. Taken away from my mom at birth, in a children's home until 6 weeks, then adopted. Your theory of god/mom might fit my early atheism? My infant brain was never rewarded with a continual presence of "mom" for some time after birth...??
Another great question! In the book I try to make the case that the innate model of mother is something we all have, regardless of the quality of our experience with our real parents when we were infants and children, and that it normally lies dormant during adult life. But if and when it is activated in later life, it spawns this compelling intuitive feeling of the existence of a primordial savior. Largely distinct from this, however, are the effects of our experiences, both good and bad, with parental or other attachment figures during infancy and childhood. This is Lee Kirkpatrick's attachment theory of religion, which turns out to mesh nicely with some of my ideas. I discuss this in chapter 6 of the book.
@@johnwathey2305 why would you push such an agenda that would take away faith from people that need it like cancer patients and people dying and believing in God is there only way to deal with the pain or people with drug addictions that need to belive in God to gi on,what purpose do you have?
i wish there was a loving god we all want too see our loved ones again but if there is a god its hard too believe its that one in the bible for that bible makes no sense
It seems so easy to realize that when the word "to" has an extra "o" like "too" it indicates an excess. Too much. Too long. Too heavy, etc. " Going to town" "got to get a job" so simple, yet too hard for too many people.
I don't wish for any sort of god, because there is no possible god that could exist. I don't wish to see my loved ones after death, because they are dead. I wish to participate in reality with other people. I wish people didn't want impossible fantasies.
@@NoActuallyGo-KCUF-Yourself That’s not true, there are many possible gods that COULD exist. We just have no proof of them (outside of near death experience accounts anyway). And I think most people would want to be reunited with their loved ones if they could.
We would expect to see Christians much healthier than the general population if their God exists.... In reality, I expect their health to be a bit lower than the non-religious because a certain percentage of them don't go to a doctor when they're ill and pray instead.
Very interesting. That makes sense. It is a hypothesis and not easy to prove, but it makes sense. My mother was god before I was cognitive and "god" fills that void when I understand what my mother really is and god is purposed to me. My mother will love to hear that part of the reason I'm an atheist is that she did not breast feed me. lol.
Phloid82: I don't think a lack of breastfeeding makes one become an atheist. I think you probably inherited a good mind that works, and she didn't indoctrinate you hard and early. Oh, you were kidding. My mistake! I hope your mother is proud of you.
I likely have {undiagnosed as yet}, neocortical temporal lobe epilepsy. This is a rare form without physical seizures. The seizures are called "emotional" seizures, and they come across as "god' talking to me, guiding me and giving me information. It took years, including years as a fundamentalist Christian, before I figured out the physical/brain origin of my experiences. {likely Paul, Mohammed, Walt whitman and others shared this condition. I do know where all the prophets and religions come from.
I've heard about these, and I watched a documentary about it. Truly a remarkable condition. I think it's highly probable that many significant historical spiritual leaders had this disease. Alexander the Great almost certainly had something similar.
Thanks for those insightful comments. Have you been to a neurologist? If it really is epilepsy, they may be able to confirm it via EEG. I'm not a neurologist, which is not the same thing as a neuroscientist, but I know there are some helpful medications available if that really is the problem. And you're right, there probably is a syndrome involving temporal lobe epilepsy that can lead to religious feelings, experiences, even hallucinations. I say "probably" because there is some controversy about it. Most cases of epilepsy in the temporal lobe do not involve hyperreligiosity. But there are enough cases that do that it has a name (Geschwind syndrome).
John Wathey Hi, thanks. Next step is to see a neurologist for an EEG. I'm finding there could be some health issues with this so I'm going to pursue it until I know for sure...I hadn't heard of Geschwind sydrome, I'll check it out.......I understand that my experiences are not common, but seem to fit the small percentage that fall under the neocortical region. {the majority are 'medial".}......Thanks for responding.
The baconized Yes, that video, with Dr. Ramachandran, was major for me. Minus the physical spasms, the religious experience is/was the same. This is very likely what many religious leaders have experienced. A good reference for me is "Cosmic Consciousness", by Bucke. A collection of these experiences.
John Wathey Please check out "Cosmic Consciousness" by Bucke, if you haven't. Case studies from a research done over one hundred years ago. Correlates precisely with my experiences.
The childlike approach is biobehavioural viz the I-centric view from childhood and old age (subject-to-object) vis-a-vis the allocentric view (object-to-object) that dominates in middle age.
The cell we all come from contains the software to make us, further, this cell copies itself verbatim, therefore every or most cells contain the same software as the original. Take it from there.
Religion propagates because it offers rewards though hollow as they are. Also community if we atheist could offer community like church it would help those leaving Religion. I know many are trying and I support them
11:12 It isn't "infantile" to make as much sense of an experience as one can. The interpretations and conclusions that people make and come to can certainly be branded "infantile" but the religious experience is extremely profound and it is by no means infantile to recognize and acknowledge the reality of this experience.
Infantile as in this is the stage of life this urge kicks in developmentally. If you think it’s saying any association is infantile, you may be overreacting, though as a pathological response, it may well be - & probably is - infantile.
I like his definition of the god of Deism. Remote, nebulous, unknowable and irrelevant.. If you are able to believe in that god, then follow a simple rule: Do no harm or cause unnecessary pain to others. And then, after you die, and face this god, and if this god is loving and benevolent, you'll have nothing to fear.
Good job. Could the evolution of the human brain in junction with the evolution of religion produce regions of the brain change to produce mental manifestations that could foster religion? One benefit of the religion is the social aspect that concerns itself with the wellbeing of the group. Later the religions would be more concerned about control.
We're born with a conscience that guides our behavior. We intuitively seek the creator of Earth and the Cosmos. We instinctively ask God for guidance and direction as we pursue our education, career, spouse, religion, enlightening philosophies, virtues, and values to live by. We develop our potential as human beings by forging an unshakable relationship with God. Now we're told to discard this powerful intuition. We're told God's presence, so powerfully felt, is a pathological illusion that congenitally replaces our mother's arms as we leave home. Why then are we so noble, curious, Insightful, adventurous, and restless? Why 8.5 million species who we rule? Where did beauty and order come from if not God?
You guys must address entheogenic plant teachers. The world itself is a photocognitive picture. Relativity shows us that we are phenomenological. The world of a MOTHER is also out of the same creativity that we are made of. There are archetypes that sublate neuroscience. The flesh itself is made of light. What is the pineal glad for? We cannot begin mind at a socio-physiological foundation. BTW Yay Sarah Blaffer Hrdy!
![Would We Be Better Off Without Religion? - Christopher Hitchens [2007] ✝️ | Intelligence Squared](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DIR7_X-ahy4/mqdefault.jpg)
I am so grateful we have the greatest podcaster ever, Seth also has a naturally silky smooth voice and an intelligent brain that asks great questions
Qp
I read this book. John Wathey has to be one of the most patient, careful and painstaking of authors. This is a beautiful and important book. It has a permanent place in my library and I will donate copies to organizations as much as I can.
My son will never have to go to a religious camp! His school has a bible study group that meets after school. I would like to go and sit in on one of the classes and see what exactly goes on. I would probably just burst into flames.
I use to fall asleep with a smile on my face, because I felt God was in the room with me. The love felt so real, it was a warm and cradling sensation. There was so much conviction behind that feeling, knowing for an absolute fact that this being of surrounding energy loves you. Not the kinda love that you feel from a spouse or parent, this feeling felt so deep and personal. This being had a plan for my life. If I stood at a fork in the road, I was content with whatever path I took, because IT knew where I was going. Nothing was ever a bad choice, all was part of a divine plan. If I was having a bad day, it was somehow in control and played a part in my ultimate purpose and I felt content with alot.
Non-believers who were never born again Christians have this objection to a sky daddy always watching you, knowing your every move, every dirty and humiliating thought. And this disgusts some people and I understand why they resent this concept. They are perceiving it as if another human was watching you. But as a former Christian I never saw it this way. This God is above human humility and embarrassment, we can't compare God to human emotion. A god watching over us is not like another human watching us while taking a shit. There is a deeper significance. Yes feeling God while on the toilet is a thing for Christians too. Your not blessing your poop, nothing like that. It's walking with this being in every aspect of your life, like how a baby would want their loving mother in the room even when they're sitting in their diapers. And as a Christian you want this, to feel uplifted everywhere and in everything.
I had a more deistic idea of Christ rather than theistic,
Born again believers really have their own perspective that most people cannot grasp unless they've been there themselves. Believers just can't get around the fact that non of these feeling requires a God to work and not to mention the God their creating in their heads (the God I was creating in my head) is not at all like the God of the Bible. They feel their feelings and try to interpret the Bible according to their feelings. "If God makes me feel this way, then Gods word must reflect this somehow. Thus we have apologetics to make a narrative that matches the feelings of the good loving God they feel. After all if you feel your spouses valid love and they express that they are moral and truly good, it would be hard to except that they took part in a murder. Any partner would deny and not except that their spouse did horrible things, because of the way they made them feel.
People can avoid or seek out associations. Like the 'Little Albert experiment' where a baby learned to associate fear with fluffy white things. The opposite can also be true. People can learn to associate good feelings with an object or idea. The "God Feeling" is something all humans are capable of experiencing. It depends were we experience it that we plan our flag.
If the idea of Jesus and Biblical teachings comes to be associated with the good "feels" then people will seek out what they think is causing that and defend it, because it is a reflection of the love they feel. Born again Christian thought process >>>""The God of the Bible makes me feel this love and joy, the Bible is a reflection of these feelings , it has to be good somehow we just can't understand it."" These feelings for Christians is considered powerful evidence. Understanding it's all in the head would be like a skeptic trying to understand how reality is all in the elbow. Most people are self psychologically illiterate, they cannot understand their own brain processes and it's flaws. To them psychology is a thing that effects other people in movies or institutions, but not themselves. Most people are as ignorant about psychology as they are evolution.
When we associate these feelings we also assume that because this association is exclusive (or appears exclusive to the specific faith) that no one else experiences it the way we experience it. It feels real to us so we assume it's real and therefore everyone else must be false or confused. But we never take the time to think that maybe why other faiths claim feelings is because their convinced like us by the same sensations. They never really consider that maybe the point of the sensation is to truly feel real but not be and could be why everyone else claims to feel it too. That thought never comes to mind. And I think it's common for humans to assume they hold the standard of experience and knowledge. The Drunning Kruger effect is more than just for education. People can think they hold the standard to the "real" divine presence.
I think being a former Christian allows people to reach certain areas in these studies that people who were never there cannot reach.
Thanks for those thoughts. You've expressed very well the kind of feelings I've tried to explain.
Your very welcome. I really loved your evolutionary assessment on the God feeling. I do plan to buy your book even though you said it's not necessarily academic I still feel I could learn more in depth on this subject. While it does make sense, it doesn't explain how people strongly associate the "God feeling" to a specific idea or dogma. But I suppose ancient tribes would have put it somewhere in a world without immediate answers. As a reflection of the way I believed this is why i've hypothesized associative behavior.
"We have this un-explained feeling of a strong presence, so it must be a result of what i'm believing or what i'm involved in." And that can give the illusion that we were chosen to feel this love or divine acceptance because we were doing things the right way. When I felt that safe and secure presence of God as I mentioned in my last comment, I was assured I was doing the right things and thus accepted by this divine being and ultimately not worried of going to hell. It's when you stop feeling God that you worry for your soul again. "I must have done something wrong and now i'm not longer in His acceptance, thus no longer safe." Humans do have the tendency to center things around themselves and through evolution we do it for survival purposes so maybe this associative behavior does stem from an evolutionary cause after all.
"I use to fall asleep with a smile on my face, because I felt God was in the room with me. The love felt so real, it was a warm and cradling sensation." you just described ,what drugs like heroin or xtc doo XD think about that ;)
Excellent post! I've read hundreds of comments on pages like this and this is one of the best explanations I've seen, from a former Christian. (I actually thought you were going to Defend The Faith until I read it all the way through.)
@@thesunking944 God loves you.
I appreciate commentary of people with experience of family influence from religious institutions. I am convinced that being disillusioned is a good thing and that all that may be known is evident in nature. I just bought the book.
This is the second interview I’ve heard with Dr. Wathey his findings tie in with lectures on the brain I have heard. Definitely buying the book.
There is a certain satisfaction in knowing that you've avoided falling for a con which so many other people have succumbed to. Religion may just be the biggest con of 'em all!
If not the largest, it is certainly the most successful in history.
They sell a product where nobody ever comes and asks for their money back
@@historicalbiblicalresearch8440 Or if they do ask for 'their money back' they get executed 🤷🏽♂ (for most of history)
They can be exposed for what they really are, scam specialists!!
There is a certain satisfaction is not falling for atheism too.
I loved this podcast. I am studying Psychology and I am also an early childhood teacher so I have studied attachment theory. Also I think it explains why a friend of mine who has experienced many forms of rejection is so emotional and defends there belief as if you are attacking them. When I was a believer I enjoyed conversations with non believers although at the time I was immune to thier sceptism. Very much looking forward to reading Jack's book.
Thanks for those kind words. My chapter 6 is on attachment theory.
Having read several books on this topic, it's hard to ignore the logic behind this obvious conclusion. It makes so much more sense than believing in a 'Heavenly Father' in the sky. Thanks for this interview, as always.
Speechless with appreciation and admiration! An important session. Thanks, Seth.
As a person who wants to teach the Psychology of Religion one day, I bought this book instantly
One the most interesting topics ever: the biological origins of religion, particularly of religious feelings. Most enjoyable...
Certainly fits with my own path of childhood Christianity (always dissatisfactory) to Wicca (Great Mother a vast improvement over my mother, real or imagined) until I "grew up" enough to accept my preexisting atheism.
I mentioned this book to Darryl Ray, and he mentioned it to Seth Andrews - glad to see it getting more play.
Thank you, uncleanunicorn! Darrel has been enormously generous and helpful! I am in his debt and yours. And now I'm indebted to Seth, too, for asking such great questions in this interview.
this man is a fucking genius. literally from the minute I left religion 2 years ago I have been trying to understand why - in a biological, evolutionary sense- people are religious and believe in gods. He answered this in like 15 minutes.
+Cosmic Rogue that is a great video, I realized halfway thru that I've seen it before but I appreciate the suggestion. This TTA show shocked me because it is a brand new theory that I had never considered or heard of before, this is such a fascinating field of study isn't it?
Natasha Williamson Absolutely! I think it's crucial to understand _why_ religion is such a fixture in human culture. I think understanding human biology, and psychology, not only helps reveal how the brain works, but why religious thought happens. It is both fascinating and important because I think it will help some forceful and aggressive atheists be more compassionate and patient when dealing with religious people.
as an atheist, and as someone who accepted years ago that human thoughts and emotions are a by-product of the body's chemistry, i think that thought and feelings are still important to our understanding of ourselves, and to our understanding of the concepts that shape our understanding of the universe. including science and our practical uses of it. to my mind theology isn't an attempt to understand a god that exists, but an explanation of the reasoning that led to the creation of the god concept. for that purpose, an understanding of history, philosophy, psychology, and archeology is often called for.
This all makes such PERFECT LOGICAL SENSE! I never looked at it this way...I'm a sponge and ALWAYS willing to learn just like Seth.
Fascinating. I've had a small taste of the feeling of the presence of something bigger and other in a pre-atheist life. I've never forgotten it.
I've downloaded the book and I'm looking forward to reading it.
I picked up the book back in March, shortly after it came out, and it was mind-blowing. I'm glad to see it getting more attention.
Incredible conversation of reality and the illusion of the supernatural! The mind can create anything if given time and repeatable.
Finally, an intelligent, adult conversation about religion.
I've read this book, and use it constantly as a reference. This is a major research work and I find Dr Wathey's discoveries illuminating. I've always felt there was a biological root or two to religion, and that it is a natural phenomenon that affects people worldwide.
His treatment of dualism is especially important, since religions depend on the idea that individual persons have "souls".
Everyone should read this book. 🎉
I prefer the word delusion because this proclivity is so very enduring and can be made permanent, resisting all attempts to lay it aside. An illusion has the connotation of being much more temporary and evanescent. A magic trick is an illusion, we are fooled, we see the end, gasp, laugh, applaud, understand what we thought we saw wasn't what was. A mirage is an illusion, that when we reach it, isn't there, and we realize we were fooled.
But this God thing, this God Virus (loved that book) is deep, deep, self protective, will change enough to keep us fooled, and will help us to want to stay fooled.
Over all, I think 'delusion' is fitting.
This was a great interview.
I have a feeling he went with ‘illusion‘ simply to make it sound as different as possible from the name of the well known book “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins. “The Delusion of God’s Presence” sounds too similar.
This is very interesting on the survivability of the religions we have today. Like the ones who survive maybe play to our innate biology more than others and thus make it easier to survive. I feel like Christianity does this very well. It explains nature. It gives you a "mother/father figure" and it satisfies your natural tendency towards guilt for doing something wrong. So I can see why it's successful to an extent. I'm getting this book right now. Very fascinating.
I was at 22:30 thinking "I hope Seth asks about agency," then you did. Great transition. I hope you ask about confirmation bias next.
A great talk and very eye opening in explaining why so many folks fall into the religious trap.
What saved me from this illusion is general knowledge. In all aspects of what is everywhere there is chaos. Nature, society, ... everything is in discord. If an all powerful deity does exist it is not acting to restore order which is pretty much useless. Puzzling is it? He is right when he says that our own brain betrays us in order to sometimes save us during the early days of man’s ecistence. The more knowledge a brain has the less it needs to betray us.
What an interesting topic!! Mr. Wathey is a great speaker; he makes a rather complicated subject accesible to the layperson...great show Seth!
I agree with Kariah, the questioning towards this subject were hugely, thoughtful, logical and got to the "nitty-gritties". Superb podcast with so much valuable and intellectual debate.
27:11 My religious experience was not an "intense longing" or "longing" of any kind. It was a 'oneness' sort of thing and it was very overwhelming. I was an atheist before it and an atheist after it but while it was happening I said aloud "I can never deny the existence of God again".
Yes, the oneness experience so many of my friends have had I have paralleled to the kundalini, awakening and so forth. And yogis will even admit that this is the aim of their spiritual practice. I have never had this experience and I’m afraid if I ever do, it will be much harder to be“intellectual“ as I am now. I am a musician in a Pentecostal environment, even now, but I have excepted it as a means to worship my creator in a very broad way. I have made it clear to my superiors that I do not participate in embracing common dogmatic ideas, so I have a small degree of authenticity living in two worlds as a private non-Christian and a public Christian.
@@stevedallaspiano777 Amazing. Cool. Admirable.
I've been listening to this podcast on iTunes for years. Can't believe it's taken so long to find it on RUclips. Unfortunately it was because of Steve Shives. Keep up the good work.
What a KIND man he is.
I listened to the whole podcast but didn’t hear the question that most interested me: what happens when some people’s minds contradict the explanation this author suggests?
I was raised a Catholic during my very early years (in the 60s, when Catholicism was pervasive as the official state religion in Spain) but by the age of 9 I had started questioning, realizing that things did not make any sense and by the time I was 14 I had completely abandoned religion, in what I jokingly call ‘a precocious onset of critical thinking’ (the only times I picked the bible as a child, outside of religion class, was to read the ‘saucy bits’). I came from a normal family, was nurtured as a child and all, but I have never felt the need for a god nor understand the longing or need so many have for a ‘superior’ being or thing, even after they become non-believers.
So, what could be the reason? Is it that some of us don’t need the ‘religion drug’? Could it happen to those that are not prone to addiction? I have no proof of that, of course, only my own experience of never becoming addicted to addictive substances: coffee, soda, tobacco, sugar… or opioids, even after taking several of them (with no effects whatsoever) for months for chronic pain.
My guess is that you are neurodivergent. Don't ask how I know. 😉
very enjoyable and educational. Also very respectful of those experiencing these illusions. it is easy to ridicule but handlec it with sensitivity.I will be buying his book.
The human body, is nothing but a set of chemical reactions.
The chemical reactions powering a human life are no different from the reactions powering the life of a bacterium, a mosquito, a mouse, a dog or a chimp. When a human being dies, the chemical reactions stop. There is no "soul" mixed in with the chemicals, just like there is no soul in a bacterium, a mosquito, a mouse, a dog or a chimp. Why would there be an afterlife for the chemicals that make up a human body?
The whole notion of your "soul" is completely imaginary. The concept of a "soul" has been invented by religion because many people have trouble facing their own mortality. It makes people feel better, but the concept is a complete fabrication.
It is when you think about the chemical reactions powering your life and your brain that you realize how completely imaginary your "soul" truly is. And at that point, everything about religion comes unraveled.
Think back to when you were a kid and you realized that Santa was imaginary. As soon as you knew it, it was obvious. Reindeer cannot fly.
A man cannot slide down chimneys. There is no way for one little sleigh to carry all the toys for all the kids in the world. Etc. It is obvious that Santa is make believe.
In the same way, it is obvious that human beings are big, walking chemical reactions (see this article for a description of how the reactions work science.howstuffworks.com/life/cellular-microscopic/cell.htm ). Your "soul" is make believe just like Santa. When the chemical reactions cease, you die.
That is the end of it.
Knowing this, you can see that everything about religion is imaginary. God, the Bible, Jesus, the resurrection, prayer, the Ten Commandments, the creation story, your soul, everlasting life, heaven... every bit of it is the product of human imagination.
The same goes for Allah, the Koran and so on. As a species we have believed all of this religious dogma for centuries, and most of us believe it today to some degree. And yet... it is all fiction. Today's "God" is just as fictional as were the gods of the Egyptians, the Romans and the Aztecs.
"FAITH is believing in a God that you know for a fact is not real"
Lou Rummel
Wrong. Admittedly, the advent of central heating did cause Santa considerable problems, but then he got the transporter device from Star Trek and since then it's been presents as usual!
Also, most humans are led mainly by instinct, i.e. the overactive agency detector, the deep desire to live forever, etc.
ke4uyp: It's called a teleporter
Alexander LegisNonScriptae: What I said :-)
The main thing that makes life different than mere chemical reactions like those occurring in a test tube I think is the existence of consciousness. While chemical reactions and electrical signals occurring in our brain may correlate with our experience of the taste of chocolate, or the sound of music, they are not identical. The brain produces the mind, but the mind is not identical with the brain. The mind or consciousness, thoughts and feelings, have a seemingly immaterial quality to them. To me this is the main “hope”, if you will, that there may indeed be something more to what we are, and which the phenomenon of near death experiences seems to support. The commonalities in NDE accounts are difficult to explain away.
Wow, what a wonderful podcast. Thanks a lot! I love Jack's approach to faith and believers.
Great guest thanks
Faith is not having to think.
Kitty BooBoo
Evidence that can't be examined is useless. Your evidence is how you _feel_ about something, and that's not evidence.
Kitty BooBoo
Your claim that "God HAS indeed revealed Himself to me." is no different from the claim of catechumens in other religions! No different! You make fantastical claims that you can't back up with any evidence (like the existence of your god), and you complain that we're somehow wrong for pointing this out to you?
And my particular complaint with _you_ is that you will undoubtedly vote for someone with a similar delusion. Yes, I said delusion. Believing things without any evidence is a delusion by definition (see the DSM-5). Imposing your views on others through the political system is just plain wrong - and you'd wholeheartedly agree, if it was Sharia being imposed on you. You probably don't see that you're doing the same thing.
You have no evidence of anything truly miraculous, you've seen no evidence of anything miraculous, and you don't recognize your *confirmation bias* (look it up). You may think that my post is "angry", but I think of it as _helpful_, if a bit firm. And I'll go further and say that if you can point out any discrepancies between my view and reality, I'd appreciate it. You can't say the same thing and maintain your delusion.
Kitty BooBoo
When people are in a less than healthy state of mind, they're likely to say all sorts of stupid things. I wouldn't fault your dad for saying anything with which you may agree *or* disagree. But we who are still possessed of rational faculty must consider the evidence and make decisions accordingly.
Atheists are not a group of any sort because all it means to be an atheist is we have not received sufficient convincing evidence that any god(s) exist. There are Republican atheists, Democratic atheists, scientist atheists, and stupid atheists, but there's nothing that binds the "group" together except for not believing in what we think of as fairy-tales.
Instead of railing against people for not believing in your particular deity, perhaps your time would be better spent providing evidence for the existence of your gods - if that's even possible. Just a suggestion.
It's not, as Bible mentions faith, which could not exist without thinking.
Sing Psalms & Rejoice You aren't too smart
this was an excellent, thought provoking discussion. I'll definitely be trying to get my hands on a copy! thanks so much for sharing, John!.🙂
There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths.
Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought!
Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed.
- Bertrand Russell
True.
Awesome show, and guest, Seth.
I look forward to your weekly shows.
I was raised in the Christian religion and believed it for years. One of the very first occurrences that made me start slightly doubting it's authenticity was when I was 9 years old back in the mid 1980s, I found out tragically that a 12 year old boy at my school died suddenly by getting his neck caught on a rope and suffocating to death. How could any God upstairs allow something that horrific to happen and not give a darn???
I hope this guy is still alive cuz I want to have a beer with him,
This idea of social parenting, wouldn't it mean that the infant is more able to view surrogate mothers as mothers? If we are able to be handed off to grandmothers and other surrogates, wouldn't that mean that we have an evolved tendency to project this mother/god idea?
Michael Shermer has done some great writing on our evolved tendency to see agency in random events. What Dr. Wathy is saying here would be complimentary to that. We not only project agency but also paternalism. We see random events as happening because of a deliberate agent. and we see the agent as benevolent, a parent due to our tendency to accept surrogate parents because of social parenting.
I love this. It all comes from the brain. I'm so glad I'm an atheist.
Half way through this podcast I paused it and ordered his book!
I'm on the verge of doing the same
September Crow ...keep it in your library....😊
Wonderful discussion.
😁 *Seriously IMPORTANT. A really valuable show!* 😁
I've been thinking about this topic a lot over the past couple years, so I found this podcast very interesting.
Million % true about he says of the undetectable and missing God
I sent my kids to a @Christian Football Camp” which seemed to be teach football and then scare the hell out of them after dinner. My older son was oblivious but my younger didn’t sleep for weeks after he got home. Who the hell would preach Armageddon to 8 year olds?
Wow. What are the odds? I have been a fan of TTA but this is my first time listening to the podcast. I did go to Falls Creek in Oklahoma as a young teen though.
fascinating talk
This is absolutely fascinating!!!
My cat is a mature tom, but responds to petting as a kitten does to it's mother. This is that phenomenon in another species. Pets, mainly cats and dogs have been bred to retain infantile behaviors. Forced neoteny.
This is probably why most of the earlier religions were based on Earth mother symbolism.
Phenomenal podcast! Very informative and interesting, I'm going to have to get his book. 👍
excellent show, I finished it and am immediately re-listening.
After listening to this talk today, I immediately got the book.
this guy is blowing my mind
I pray😉 for a religion-free world.
👌 Brilliant & very interesting...Nice 1 John! Peace✌
Take A Moment
I will buy a copy tomorrow.
Thank you Sir
Stay Safe
Stay Free 🇺🇦
That must be a wonderful book to read!
I hope this gets researched more I really think he's on to something here.
I have read this twice , fabulous groundbreaking work . We are wired for god belief , sad but true .
We are wired for some sort of belief, and being unable to understand what that is, some people make up a fantasy as a place holder.
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
Good show!
How do religious parents visualise their baby in the afterlife? It has no personality, it has no memories. What interaction do they think that they can have?
Do they think they'll just carry on in the afterlife as they did before? Do they think the baby will 'grow up' in the afterlife? Or do they imagine their child existing in permanent infancy?
Only the perfect answer would do, it would wait until the parents both join it, because true christians never lose the faith, and all christians are true christians until they are not… When they were both there because of course they were always true christians, the baby would only then begin to grow. Except without piles of green angel poo.
Babies of Atheists go to hell when they die, because their fictional god is perfectly just. It must be so for the horrible sin of not being gullible enough to believe the bible word for word while ignoring or rationalizing away all the really shitty parts of it like the slavery and conquest rape and the killing of children in war time, and we know that their evil fictional god punishes children for the fourth and fifth generation. It says so in the book they are so desperate to believe that they ignore most of it.
All because they really like the part that says they'll live forever in the clouds above the flat earth.
For quite some time I have been arguing about exactly what he was studying about.
Off course I couldnt know in depth what exactly was going on in our brain or how is it connected to the evolution,but I always thought that we long for that something akka god cuz we are basicly created by our parents.
Off course mothers play a bigger role in this,but that is the depth I couldnt go to without research.
Very interesting topic.
I hope there is more research about it so that we can for sure once and for all unravel this missconception that a loving god created us.
Anyone can and has to at this point admit that a god that just created everything and does nothing could exist.
However,saying that is not important because it wouldnt change our lives in any way unless you believe in a personal god :)
Btw,I am an atheist.
Just because I admit that a non personal god could have created our universe doesnt mean that I cant be an atheist.
I was an atheist from my earliest memories of talking or thinking about god. I can remember saying there is no god when I was about 7. I was adopted. Taken away from my mom at birth, in a children's home until 6 weeks, then adopted. Your theory of god/mom might fit my early atheism? My infant brain was never rewarded with a continual presence of "mom" for some time after birth...??
Another great question! In the book I try to make the case that the innate model of mother is something we all have, regardless of the quality of our experience with our real parents when we were infants and children, and that it normally lies dormant during adult life. But if and when it is activated in later life, it spawns this compelling intuitive feeling of the existence of a primordial savior. Largely distinct from this, however, are the effects of our experiences, both good and bad, with parental or other attachment figures during infancy and childhood. This is Lee Kirkpatrick's attachment theory of religion, which turns out to mesh nicely with some of my ideas. I discuss this in chapter 6 of the book.
@@johnwathey2305 why would you push such an agenda that would take away faith from people that need it like cancer patients and people dying and believing in God is there only way to deal with the pain or people with drug addictions that need to belive in God to gi on,what purpose do you have?
i wish there was a loving god we all want too see our loved ones again but if there is a god its hard too believe its that one in the bible for that bible makes no sense
Praying for you. God loves you and pray for God to help you unferstsnd His word.
It seems so easy to realize that when the word "to" has an extra "o" like "too" it indicates an excess. Too much. Too long. Too heavy, etc. " Going to town" "got to get a job" so simple, yet too hard for too many people.
I don't wish for any sort of god, because there is no possible god that could exist.
I don't wish to see my loved ones after death, because they are dead.
I wish to participate in reality with other people.
I wish people didn't want impossible fantasies.
@@NoActuallyGo-KCUF-Yourself That’s not true, there are many possible gods that COULD exist. We just have no proof of them (outside of near death experience accounts anyway). And I think most people would want to be reunited with their loved ones if they could.
I wish there was a Camp Quest close to my home for my daughter
We would expect to see Christians much healthier than the general population if their God exists.... In reality, I expect their health to be a bit lower than the non-religious because a certain percentage of them don't go to a doctor when they're ill and pray instead.
one of your best intervieuws seth :)
A wonderful discussion. Many thanks. Truly appreciated .
That was awesome, thanks
Excellent podcast ✔️
This is what I was searching for millions of years.
🤨
Very interesting. That makes sense. It is a hypothesis and not easy to prove, but it makes sense. My mother was god before I was cognitive and "god" fills that void when I understand what my mother really is and god is purposed to me. My mother will love to hear that part of the reason I'm an atheist is that she did not breast feed me. lol.
Phloid82: I don't think a lack of breastfeeding makes one become an atheist. I think you probably inherited a good mind that works, and she didn't indoctrinate you hard and early. Oh, you were kidding. My mistake! I hope your mother is proud of you.
This is something that I've thought myself for a while now; that the religious worldviews is an inherently childish one.
"Man created god from his own imagination"
Romans 1:20-21
Gillilan Stewart: the bible is the claim. Nothing it says proves a thing.
Yet so many can’t see this simple fact
@@gillianstewart8442
Ah....I see, we can do that with Spider-Man comics.
@@quantumrobin4627 Simple fact? Do expand.
People’s brains are NOT hard wired for religion. Mine certainly isn’t and never was. It takes some level of indoctrination.
I likely have {undiagnosed as yet}, neocortical temporal lobe epilepsy. This is a rare form without physical seizures. The seizures are called "emotional" seizures, and they come across as "god' talking to me, guiding me and giving me information. It took years, including years as a fundamentalist Christian, before I figured out the physical/brain origin of my experiences. {likely Paul, Mohammed, Walt whitman and others shared this condition. I do know where all the prophets and religions come from.
I've heard about these, and I watched a documentary about it. Truly a remarkable condition. I think it's highly probable that many significant historical spiritual leaders had this disease. Alexander the Great almost certainly had something similar.
Thanks for those insightful comments. Have you been to a neurologist? If it really is epilepsy, they may be able to confirm it via EEG. I'm not a neurologist, which is not the same thing as a neuroscientist, but I know there are some helpful medications available if that really is the problem. And you're right, there probably is a syndrome involving temporal lobe epilepsy that can lead to religious feelings, experiences, even hallucinations. I say "probably" because there is some controversy about it. Most cases of epilepsy in the temporal lobe do not involve hyperreligiosity. But there are enough cases that do that it has a name (Geschwind syndrome).
John Wathey Hi, thanks. Next step is to see a neurologist for an EEG. I'm finding there could be some health issues with this so I'm going to pursue it until I know for sure...I hadn't heard of Geschwind sydrome, I'll check it out.......I understand that my experiences are not common, but seem to fit the small percentage that fall under the neocortical region. {the majority are 'medial".}......Thanks for responding.
The baconized Yes, that video, with Dr. Ramachandran, was major for me. Minus the physical spasms, the religious experience is/was the same. This is very likely what many religious leaders have experienced. A good reference for me is "Cosmic Consciousness", by Bucke. A collection of these experiences.
John Wathey Please check out "Cosmic Consciousness" by Bucke, if you haven't. Case studies from a research done over one hundred years ago. Correlates precisely with my experiences.
Wonderful
The childlike approach is biobehavioural viz the I-centric view from childhood and old age (subject-to-object) vis-a-vis the allocentric view (object-to-object) that dominates in middle age.
My bucket list is growing;)
The cell we all come from contains the software to make us, further, this cell copies itself verbatim, therefore every or most cells contain the same software as the original. Take it from there.
Wow, great info!!
Religion propagates because it offers rewards though hollow as they are. Also community if we atheist could offer community like church it would help those leaving Religion. I know many are trying and I support them
Atheism has nothing to offer.
This may be the most important research thinking in history SINCE DARWIN i.e. WHY BRAINS BELIEVE !!
11:12 It isn't "infantile" to make as much sense of an experience as one can. The interpretations and conclusions that people make and come to can certainly be branded "infantile" but the religious experience is extremely profound and it is by no means infantile to recognize and acknowledge the reality of this experience.
Infantile as in this is the stage of life this urge kicks in developmentally. If you think it’s saying any association is infantile, you may be overreacting, though as a pathological response, it may well be - & probably is - infantile.
@5:54
🍇 *He says "jive"; but, he MEANS "jibe".* 🍇
[Correction submitted with all due respect because WORDS MATTER!]
Hey, it's "ALL WORDS MATTER". 😁
Oh god, Fall's Creek. That's a throwback from the past.
I like his definition of the god of Deism. Remote, nebulous, unknowable and irrelevant.. If you are able to believe in that god, then follow a simple rule: Do no harm or cause unnecessary pain to others. And then, after you die, and face this god, and if this god is loving and benevolent, you'll have nothing to fear.
Good job. Could the evolution of the human brain in junction with the evolution of religion produce regions of the brain change to produce mental manifestations that could foster religion? One benefit of the religion is the social aspect that concerns itself with the wellbeing of the group. Later the religions would be more concerned about control.
We're born with a conscience that guides our behavior. We intuitively seek the creator of Earth and the Cosmos. We instinctively ask God for guidance and direction as we pursue our education, career, spouse, religion, enlightening philosophies, virtues, and values to live by. We develop our potential as human beings by forging an unshakable relationship with God. Now we're told to discard this powerful intuition. We're told God's presence, so powerfully felt, is a pathological illusion that congenitally replaces our mother's arms as we leave home. Why then are we so noble, curious, Insightful, adventurous, and restless? Why 8.5 million species who we rule? Where did beauty and order come from if not God?
😊 Gods are imaginary..
You guys must address entheogenic plant teachers. The world itself is a photocognitive picture. Relativity shows us that we are phenomenological. The world of a MOTHER is also out of the same creativity that we are made of. There are archetypes that sublate neuroscience. The flesh itself is made of light. What is the pineal glad for? We cannot begin mind at a socio-physiological foundation. BTW
Yay Sarah Blaffer Hrdy!
You look a lot like the late great Dr. Shipman.
I couldn’t find this episode in your podcast list. Is it not available as a podcast? Why can’t I find it? Thanks please
If God's presence is an illusion, then so is love... right?