@@tomlabooks3263 no birdsong but a terrible stench. It really is a neat little device to say let's stop and get used to the smell, so they can have the conversation about the levels of sin.
Thank you so much for these videos! I started reading Dantes Comedy after falling in love with Hoziers album 'Unreal Unearth'. Your analysis and commentary on Canto XI completely changed my understanding of Son of Nyx. If you haven't listened to the album already, highly recommend
hey Tom! im a homeschooled student from Utah, and have been thoroughly enjoying these videos along with ones from Hillsdale and Baylor college while reading the book. you explain everything in such a clear way and im really enjoying the divine comedy so far. Thank you for making these videos, it truly has been such a gift to me and so many others!
@@betsyshea9035 Thanks for your comment !! It means so much 🤗 Note that I’ve also uploaded a separate playlist with videos on the Comedy , on this same channel, but in Italian ! (with English cc)
I forgot to mention - the ad that was presented with this video today was, appropriately, a trailer for the movie "Dumb Money" (about GameStop trading )
Happy Easter, Tom! I thought of you as I read line 91: "O Sun who clear and cure all troubled sight, you please me so much when you solve these things-......". Best, V
Thank you especially for the explanation of why the lending of money was considered a sin (getting something from essentially nothing). Plus the information about the different meaning of usury now and then was very helpful. I also love reading others' comments here - sadly I did not catch the birdsong (no captions for that yet 😉)
In my book there’s a note that explains that dealing with money goes against what we can find in Genesis, where man was supposed to work to earn his bread. Nowadays usury is something different, at least here in Portugal the law forbids “usura”, which means to profit on someone’s disadvantage (physical, psychological, etc.). The classical example is to ask for money in exchange for saving someone’s life (when the victim cannot refuse).
That’s interesting. In Italy “usura” (same word) is exactly what you described, and also it is defined by the criminal code as charging interest rates higher than specific levels (which change depending on situations).
Great discussions on Aristotle's Ethics and on usury. Modern life is impossible without lending money with interest and it was so widely condemned during this time.
Honestly, I found this discussion more interesting than the actual chapter, especially the information about Aristotle and usury. I had no idea the Greeks believed the soul dies with the body. I see that you go back and forth between the Pinsky and Musa translations, and I wonder: is your choice random or is it governed by a particularly good or bad translation for the particular chapter? Also, I wondered about the preponderance of “R”s you noted at the beginning and what effect it has on the reading.
I chose Pinsky and Musa based on recommendations by two professors (at Columbia and UCLA). However, I don’t think I am familiar or confident enough with English to really be able to make technical comments about how good the various translators are - I can tell how close they come to what Dante wrote, but I find it hard to say “this line flows wonderfully (or horribly) in English”. In fact, I’m curious to hear what people think about Musa’s and Pinsky’s work, and I’ve found different opinions. At the end of the day, when translating something like the Comedy, you probably should make a general choice about what you want to prioritize in your translation: musicality, poetic flow, being as close to the meaning of the original text as possible, or maybe as close to the sound of the original as possible? It’s tough ! Let’s take the “R”s in this canto: Dante’s language has a lot more harsh and rough sounds (like “RS”, “RT”, etc.) all throughout Inferno than in Purgatory and Paradise (to give a sense of how harsh, horrible and dangerous Inferno is). Scholars have actually identified a gradual change in the language he used, that not only becomes more and more elevated in style, but also softer and “sweeter” in the actual sounds. How can an English translation replicate all this nuance? In my opinion there is an optimal level , which maybe has not been reached by any translation yet, but that level is still so incredibly distant from the original that I’m not even sure it’s worth the effort (it probably is, but it sounds like such a titanic effort!). Thanks, I hope you have a great week.
Of course I disagree about your English. You’re obviously sensitive to language, as your comment about the harshness of the Rs shows. Shakespeare’s strategic use of various vowel and consonant sounds is similarly impressive. It strikes me that the R in Italian is considered harsh, but in English it seems to soften or round out sounds. This is the kind of thing I love, and it added a whole new level to your analysis, so thank you for that.
It is almost a strange twist Dante gives in this Canto--where the reader is led to believe the structural relevancy to hell relies on the seven deadly sins, it diverges from the traditional Christian vices to better mirror the Nicomachean Ethics. Although, it is hinted earlier with pre-Socratic philosophers resting in a place that largely resembles Socrates mention of an afterlife. I take it, Dante agreed with Aristotle's criticism of the pre-Socratic philosophers, haha--or, I am completely confused. I don't have my copy beside me this time to look back.
I never thought about the limbo castle looking like Socrates’s afterlife. Thanks, I’m going to look into that! As for how Dante saw Aristotle vs. pre-socratics, I don’t think you’re confused, that is a great question. However I would not even try to answer it 😅 Dante would see Aristotle’s ideas as generally more valid than the ones of previous philosophers, but I’m sure there is a lot of nuance that I’m missing.
Thanks for the philosophical/historical background. Completely off topic: I'm not sure whether anybody has made much of what seems important to me--that unlike in purgatory and paradise, there is no art in hell. No music, no visual art, and no writing. Even the poets and philosophers in limbo apparently aren't carrying scrolls. I think the only writing in hell is here, in lines 8 and 9. Am I right? Thanks again.
You are 100% right! (edit: we have to consider the writing on the Door of Inferno as well). And I agree this is such an important element. The differences in tone and style between the 3 Cantiche are so many. There are even some terms that never occur in Inferno, and some that he never used in Paradiso. That reminds me a discussion among some Italian readers: they say that, when reading the Commedia aloud, you shouldn’t use much emphasis in your tone of voice, because the language itself is already so rich. In other words, even if you had a computer read it with a flat tone, the linguistic variations would still allow the different colors to come through. Thanks for watching. The best has yet to come.
I'm seeing a lot of intellectual carpentry here as Dante attempts to dovetail the two philosophies ...I immediately thought of a sectarian reason why moneylenders were seen as so dammed, even as the church benefitted ...it certainly comes across as anti-Semitic to me ...even if it's not stated I'm sure Dante's readers would have got the message ..hmmm ...
Hi Hester - it’s possible! Anti-semitism was in the air in his times. On the other hand, in canto XVII his treatment of usury is not fully in line with his times, since he doesn’t stigmatize Jews there or use the typical anti-Semitic rhetoric that linked Jews with usury. Thanks for watching! Only 89 cantos to go : )
Teodolinda Barolini points out that the three arch usurers in Inferno are conspicuously not Jews. They have their moneybags around their neck as in the stereotypical Jew often depicted in the time but are all Italian banking families. One of the ways Dante departs from common prejudices.
The stench is everywhere, yes : ) Maybe you also found it not as engaging as the others, which would make sense, since it stands almost as a buffer between the first 10 and all the rest of Inferno.
@@tomlabooks3263 Oh no, I was joking. I find Virgil’s explanation fascinating. I am always referring to the picture at the beginning of the book with the “organization” of the Inferno. The lower circles are now more complex and have subdivisions (rings). I love. Maybe it’s my ocd tendencies. I like everything in its place. 😂
The birdsong in your garden was a delightful but curious soundtrack for a discussion of hell.
😂 I had not thought about that ! So true. No birdsongs in hell.
@@tomlabooks3263 no birdsong but a terrible stench. It really is a neat little device to say let's stop and get used to the smell, so they can have the conversation about the levels of sin.
That's a good, funny, curious, beautiful point, Roz 😁🎉😎
Thank you so much for these videos! I started reading Dantes Comedy after falling in love with Hoziers album 'Unreal Unearth'. Your analysis and commentary on Canto XI completely changed my understanding of Son of Nyx. If you haven't listened to the album already, highly recommend
I have not, but now I will do for sure. Thanks for your comment!
hey Tom! im a homeschooled student from Utah, and have been thoroughly enjoying these videos along with ones from Hillsdale and Baylor college while reading the book. you explain everything in such a clear way and im really enjoying the divine comedy so far. Thank you for making these videos, it truly has been such a gift to me and so many others!
@@betsyshea9035 Thanks for your comment !! It means so much 🤗 Note that I’ve also uploaded a separate playlist with videos on the Comedy , on this same channel, but in Italian ! (with English cc)
These videos have been amazing! I appreciate all the effort you put into making these
@@jacobmaynor5233 Thank you 🙏🏻 My pleasure.
Such a good series👍 I'm working my way through and I've finished canto 5. I really hope loads of people find your channel
Thanks so much!!
I forgot to mention - the ad that was presented with this video today was, appropriately, a trailer for the movie "Dumb Money" (about GameStop trading )
😂 That’s just perfect.
Happy Easter, Tom! I thought of you as I read line 91: "O Sun who clear and cure all troubled sight,
you please me so much when you solve these things-......". Best, V
Thanks so much Vern, a very Happy Easter to you and your family, too!
Thank you especially for the explanation of why the lending of money was considered a sin (getting something from essentially nothing). Plus the information about the different meaning of usury now and then was very helpful. I also love reading others' comments here - sadly I did not catch the birdsong (no captions for that yet 😉)
Amazing
Thank you for watching 🙏🏻
In my book there’s a note that explains that dealing with money goes against what we can find in Genesis, where man was supposed to work to earn his bread.
Nowadays usury is something different, at least here in Portugal the law forbids “usura”, which means to profit on someone’s disadvantage (physical, psychological, etc.). The classical example is to ask for money in exchange for saving someone’s life (when the victim cannot refuse).
That’s interesting. In Italy “usura” (same word) is exactly what you described, and also it is defined by the criminal code as charging interest rates higher than specific levels (which change depending on situations).
@@tomlabooks3263 Yes, here it is also a crime, it’s in our penal code.
Thanks for the illustrations and Mark Musa 😎 I'm w Roz: love the birdsong, to boot 😁 I didn't know those things about _usury,_ either.
Thanks for watching Allen! Now the perfect opposite would be to make a video about Paradiso with the hellish background of L.A. traffic ... 😉😂
Thank you, very edifying. I was thinking, if you have not read through Nicomachean Ethics you could listen to the audiobook; it's about 10 hours.
Thanks! Great suggestion.
Great discussions on Aristotle's Ethics and on usury. Modern life is impossible without lending money with interest and it was so widely condemned during this time.
Thanks John!
Honestly, I found this discussion more interesting than the actual chapter, especially the information about Aristotle and usury. I had no idea the Greeks believed the soul dies with the body. I see that you go back and forth between the Pinsky and Musa translations, and I wonder: is your choice random or is it governed by a particularly good or bad translation for the particular chapter? Also, I wondered about the preponderance of “R”s you noted at the beginning and what effect it has on the reading.
I chose Pinsky and Musa based on recommendations by two professors (at Columbia and UCLA). However, I don’t think I am familiar or confident enough with English to really be able to make technical comments about how good the various translators are - I can tell how close they come to what Dante wrote, but I find it hard to say “this line flows wonderfully (or horribly) in English”. In fact, I’m curious to hear what people think about Musa’s and Pinsky’s work, and I’ve found different opinions. At the end of the day, when translating something like the Comedy, you probably should make a general choice about what you want to prioritize in your translation: musicality, poetic flow, being as close to the meaning of the original text as possible, or maybe as close to the sound of the original as possible? It’s tough ! Let’s take the “R”s in this canto: Dante’s language has a lot more harsh and rough sounds (like “RS”, “RT”, etc.) all throughout Inferno than in Purgatory and Paradise (to give a sense of how harsh, horrible and dangerous Inferno is). Scholars have actually identified a gradual change in the language he used, that not only becomes more and more elevated in style, but also softer and “sweeter” in the actual sounds. How can an English translation replicate all this nuance? In my opinion there is an optimal level , which maybe has not been reached by any translation yet, but that level is still so incredibly distant from the original that I’m not even sure it’s worth the effort (it probably is, but it sounds like such a titanic effort!). Thanks, I hope you have a great week.
Of course I disagree about your English. You’re obviously sensitive to language, as your comment about the harshness of the Rs shows. Shakespeare’s strategic use of various vowel and consonant sounds is similarly impressive. It strikes me that the R in Italian is considered harsh, but in English it seems to soften or round out sounds. This is the kind of thing I love, and it added a whole new level to your analysis, so thank you for that.
@@TootightLautrec I feel like I am ALMOST ready for Shakespeare!
It is almost a strange twist Dante gives in this Canto--where the reader is led to believe the structural relevancy to hell relies on the seven deadly sins, it diverges from the traditional Christian vices to better mirror the Nicomachean Ethics. Although, it is hinted earlier with pre-Socratic philosophers resting in a place that largely resembles Socrates mention of an afterlife. I take it, Dante agreed with Aristotle's criticism of the pre-Socratic philosophers, haha--or, I am completely confused. I don't have my copy beside me this time to look back.
I never thought about the limbo castle looking like Socrates’s afterlife. Thanks, I’m going to look into that! As for how Dante saw Aristotle vs. pre-socratics, I don’t think you’re confused, that is a great question. However I would not even try to answer it 😅 Dante would see Aristotle’s ideas as generally more valid than the ones of previous philosophers, but I’m sure there is a lot of nuance that I’m missing.
Thanks for the philosophical/historical background. Completely off topic: I'm not sure whether anybody has made much of what seems important to me--that unlike in purgatory and paradise, there is no art in hell. No music, no visual art, and no writing. Even the poets and philosophers in limbo apparently aren't carrying scrolls. I think the only writing in hell is here, in lines 8 and 9. Am I right? Thanks again.
You are 100% right! (edit: we have to consider the writing on the Door of Inferno as well). And I agree this is such an important element. The differences in tone and style between the 3 Cantiche are so many. There are even some terms that never occur in Inferno, and some that he never used in Paradiso. That reminds me a discussion among some Italian readers: they say that, when reading the Commedia aloud, you shouldn’t use much emphasis in your tone of voice, because the language itself is already so rich. In other words, even if you had a computer read it with a flat tone, the linguistic variations would still allow the different colors to come through. Thanks for watching. The best has yet to come.
13.46 those who are strong enough to resist temptation but choose not to - is the word "viceful"?
Yes, as in “full of vice”, or sinful.
Aristotle everywhere!
I'm seeing a lot of intellectual carpentry here as Dante attempts to dovetail the two philosophies ...I immediately thought of a sectarian reason why moneylenders were seen as so dammed, even as the church benefitted ...it certainly comes across as anti-Semitic to me ...even if it's not stated I'm sure Dante's readers would have got the message ..hmmm ...
Hi Hester - it’s possible! Anti-semitism was in the air in his times. On the other hand, in canto XVII his treatment of usury is not fully in line with his times, since he doesn’t stigmatize Jews there or use the typical anti-Semitic rhetoric that linked Jews with usury. Thanks for watching! Only 89 cantos to go : )
Teodolinda Barolini points out that the three arch usurers in Inferno are conspicuously not Jews. They have their moneybags around their neck as in the stereotypical Jew often depicted in the time but are all Italian banking families. One of the ways Dante departs from common prejudices.
It’s a stinky canto.
The stench is everywhere, yes : ) Maybe you also found it not as engaging as the others, which would make sense, since it stands almost as a buffer between the first 10 and all the rest of Inferno.
@@tomlabooks3263 Oh no, I was joking. I find Virgil’s explanation fascinating. I am always referring to the picture at the beginning of the book with the “organization” of the Inferno. The lower circles are now more complex and have subdivisions (rings). I love. Maybe it’s my ocd tendencies. I like everything in its place. 😂
@@knittingbooksetc.2810 Fellow “ocd tendency” person here 👋🏼 😂