The Italian sentence around the thirteenth minute, without even knowing the interpretation, it sounds so jagged. I am going to have to look up an Italian reading of this one. These videos are filling out my notebooks. It is interesting how this theme of maintaining one's individualism secure on earth, while not being present with that status is so prevalent throughout. I am going to have to come back to this when I have not been awake for 40 hours straight--but it does raise the question on what Donte is relating to, or having pity toward in this Canto.
I’m also surprised at how much every damned soul cares about their real-life reputation. Hopefully you got some good sleep after those 40 hours! Thanks and have a good weekend.
Your erudition and ability to link so many mythical, historical, and literary sources is astounding. This series is so rich in content, I will suggest it to my friends. Question: which contemporary Italian edition would you suggest? Or should I keep working through the pithy original? Again thank you for this amazing series!
Thank you so much for your kind comment. My suggestion would be to find a modern edition with both Italian and English, the best ones I know are the ones by Allen Mandelbaum and Robert Hollander (they also have very good notes). You should be able to find them on eBay.
I notice that others have posted wonderful comments below, and intellectually I have nothing to add. But these images that have moved from molten liquid in canto 22 to a heavier more solid lead are captivating. It feels so much quieter and more sombre here. This is masterful I think - to quieten and subdue the setting as we near the centre. A lesser artist would have done precisely the opposite I think. I must say that I'm enjoying this series more and more! Thank you for another wonderful presentation.
Thanks Barb! This is my fourth reading and I’m still discovering new details and gems in every canto. I think you’re right in terms of balancing the settings and the pace... You get to a point when you wonder: how did he manage to write this? : )
I found very interesting your explanation of the contorted language being a reflection of the branches of these bushes. Another thing that I found interesting is the idea of the soul never inhabiting the body again because it had refused the body. And yes, all these cantos make me think of my own life. They seem to be a guided examination of conscience.
This canto is very special. As I ever I read it unsupported before watching this then reread with you as my guide. Even on that first reading I was captured by the woods and felt quite a visceral horror. Dante may be feeling less terrified but I'm not. My translation tries to catch the odd rhythm and sound you talk about but hearing it from you is very helpful as ever.
In the translation I have the harpies make a "window" as in the Italian and for me this sounds like a way to look in as well as look out or have some release. You also made me reflect on Dante's obvious sympathy with and pity for Piero. This seemed quite natural as I read it and it is useful to be reminded how suicide was viewed by the church. Also that Dante may have had suicidal thoughts himself in the past.
Haha such a good point ... the pilgrim might be getting more confident, but we as readers are more and more terrified ! We could say that this is a horror story narrated in a poetic style, although, like many have said, you don’t really understand the Comedy unless you read it all, and I agree with that.
@@tomlabooks3263 it is the Penguin Classics edition of the whole DC translated by Robin Kirkpatrick. It is quite good I think although a bit stolid. Allen is sending me a copy of Pinsky I think.
I really like the parallels between the first Canto and this one, and loved your comments on the original wording vs English translations. I knew reading it in Italian was harder to understand (especially when you get to Paradiso), but didn't exactly know how the expressions/wording changed. Can't imagine how challenging--and rewarding!--it must be to experience it in Italian. It's also interesting to think how differently suicide was seen before Christianity deemed it an offense against God, I had never considered that before. Great video, Tom!
Thank you !! Do you have a Spanish version maybe? It would be interesting to see if it’s also a bit easier than the Italian, and it probably is, since it would be modern Spanish.
@@tomlabooks3263 I've only read the Comedy in English, but I plan to try Spanish in my next read through since the language is closer to Italian than English is. And I guess the difficulty depends on what the translator's going for, some go for accuracy and others for a more accessible text. I'll have to do some research to find a good Spanish translation.
😅 It really is. More and more darkness, the deeper we go. If you look in my playlist, I just recorded some comments about it in italian (English subtitles are available). And I concluded the video by saying “I can’t wait to be on the shores of Purgatory”… That’s where the Light of the poem really starts.
I’ll have to give Ros the credit for her observation about the subtlety of Dante’s retelling of the myths. This canto had everything I love! Vivid, ghastly, ghostly, and emotionally fraught. Musa’s translation may not be as tortured as Dante’s, since I found the weirdness really compelling and even beautiful. I hadn’t made the connection that the pilgrim’s despair at the beginning of his journey may have bordered on suicide, and your observation of that made this canto even more poignant. I agree with you: this is one of my favorites so far.
Nobody knows exactly how long it would take him to compose one canto, but having read the entire poem a couple of times I get the impression that - like with many other really long works of literature - it took him a while to find his footing and to reach that 100% confidence in what he was writing. He probably got to that point only around this canto, and from here onwards he just gets better and better. Thanks for your great company as always.
Agree ...the imagery in this canto is stunning .. I live close to some oak woods where the trees are withered and tortured and this canto took me there ...and also to the woods near Tokyo .....I got Steve Ellis's translation for my birthday and now have that to read alongside Muso ...
@@hesterdunlop7948 Thanks Hester for watching. I’ll be really curious to hear from you about the Ellis translation, whether you find it smooth or clunky, more literal or more “interpreted”, etc.
@@hesterdunlop7948 Hi Hester I received a notification about your message with a link to a Guardian article, but I think RUclips deletes messages with links, this is why it’s not showing. Thank you for sharing anyway - I see it talks about Dante’s descendants?
I love your annotations to this canto and by the way, I have two questions. Is there any meaning for the dogs that killed the two naked men? and what's the difference between these animals to the centaurs in the previous canto?
Hi Jeff - these are female dogs, that in ancient times used to symbolize poverty and also creditors. So there is a sort of contrapasso here for these souls: they are being maimed and torn to pieces just like in life they destroyed their wealth. While the symbolic meaning for these female dogs is straight-forward, the centaurs carry a heavier significance, with their half-human body and the direct allusion to our animal nature. I hope this is helpful.
I found myself almost exhausted at the end of this canto. So much (as you say, densely packed) to open up; how deeply involved with the history and events of the times. Do you happen to know how long it took Dante to write the Divine Comedy? My next book will have to be a biography of Dante, his family, schooling, his history. I see now, why you say that scholars can spend their entire lives reading this and thinking.
Hi Lee. He probably started to write it in 1307, if not earlier, and Paradiso was finished very shortly before his death in 1321. It’s certain that he dedicated heart and soul to it, but the way each canto has so many layers and meanings, depending on how you look at it, and the endless ramifications, that can only be the work of an incredibly gifted mind. If you’re interested in a good, recent biography, you can check out “Dante: the story of his life” by Marco Santagata. Thank you for your comment!
I found the discussion (at around 29:12) of "window" vs "outlet" to pain interesting. I lean toward preferring "window", actually. But my preference is related to the following personal experience: In a local nature preserve years ago, I saw that someone had (to mark a trail) screwed into the trunk of several trees a colored 1x5 inch metal bar using two wood screws. I was horrified at seeing this method of marking a path (especially in a nature preserve) when a far less invasive method (paint) could have been used. I wanted to leave a message that this was unacceptable. So the next time I went there, I brought along stickers with "Ouch!" written on them and glued them to the metal bars. In other words, I wanted the perpetrator of the trail marking to have a "window" into the "pain" of the tree. Could it be possible that the intention was to have the harpies be able to be aware of the pain of the condemned? I realize my story is kind of weird; and preserving "window" here probably goes against most translations. At any rate, I am sure to remember this canto whenever I see those markers again! Thanks for another great video.🙏
I try to keep the videos in this series at around 20 - 25 minutes, but this is a very tangled up canto! And a wonderful one.
The Italian sentence around the thirteenth minute, without even knowing the interpretation, it sounds so jagged. I am going to have to look up an Italian reading of this one. These videos are filling out my notebooks. It is interesting how this theme of maintaining one's individualism secure on earth, while not being present with that status is so prevalent throughout. I am going to have to come back to this when I have not been awake for 40 hours straight--but it does raise the question on what Donte is relating to, or having pity toward in this Canto.
I’m also surprised at how much every damned soul cares about their real-life reputation. Hopefully you got some good sleep after those 40 hours! Thanks and have a good weekend.
Your erudition and ability to link so many mythical, historical, and literary sources is astounding. This series is so rich in content, I will suggest it to my friends. Question: which contemporary Italian edition would you suggest? Or should I keep working through the pithy original? Again thank you for this amazing series!
Thank you so much for your kind comment. My suggestion would be to find a modern edition with both Italian and English, the best ones I know are the ones by Allen Mandelbaum and Robert Hollander (they also have very good notes). You should be able to find them on eBay.
@@tomlabooks3263 Thank you so much for these tips, they're on order now! Looking forward to exploring Divina further with you as Virgil.
I notice that others have posted wonderful comments below, and intellectually I have nothing to add. But these images that have moved from molten liquid in canto 22 to a heavier more solid lead are captivating. It feels so much quieter and more sombre here. This is masterful I think - to quieten and subdue the setting as we near the centre. A lesser artist would have done precisely the opposite I think. I must say that I'm enjoying this series more and more! Thank you for another wonderful presentation.
Thanks Barb! This is my fourth reading and I’m still discovering new details and gems in every canto. I think you’re right in terms of balancing the settings and the pace... You get to a point when you wonder: how did he manage to write this? : )
I found very interesting your explanation of the contorted language being a reflection of the branches of these bushes.
Another thing that I found interesting is the idea of the soul never inhabiting the body again because it had refused the body.
And yes, all these cantos make me think of my own life. They seem to be a guided examination of conscience.
That’s a great way to put it: a guided examination of conscience. Absolutely. Thank you for watching.
Great discussion. The background information really helped me to understand the canto better.
Thank you John, I hope you’re enjoying the journey.
This canto is very special. As I ever I read it unsupported before watching this then reread with you as my guide. Even on that first reading I was captured by the woods and felt quite a visceral horror. Dante may be feeling less terrified but I'm not. My translation tries to catch the odd rhythm and sound you talk about but hearing it from you is very helpful as ever.
In the translation I have the harpies make a "window" as in the Italian and for me this sounds like a way to look in as well as look out or have some release.
You also made me reflect on Dante's obvious sympathy with and pity for Piero. This seemed quite natural as I read it and it is useful to be reminded how suicide was viewed by the church. Also that Dante may have had suicidal thoughts himself in the past.
Haha such a good point ... the pilgrim might be getting more confident, but we as readers are more and more terrified ! We could say that this is a horror story narrated in a poetic style, although, like many have said, you don’t really understand the Comedy unless you read it all, and I agree with that.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebooks That’s good that your translation captures that. Which one are you using?
@@tomlabooks3263 it is the Penguin Classics edition of the whole DC translated by Robin Kirkpatrick. It is quite good I think although a bit stolid. Allen is sending me a copy of Pinsky I think.
I really like the parallels between the first Canto and this one, and loved your comments on the original wording vs English translations. I knew reading it in Italian was harder to understand (especially when you get to Paradiso), but didn't exactly know how the expressions/wording changed. Can't imagine how challenging--and rewarding!--it must be to experience it in Italian. It's also interesting to think how differently suicide was seen before Christianity deemed it an offense against God, I had never considered that before. Great video, Tom!
Thank you !! Do you have a Spanish version maybe? It would be interesting to see if it’s also a bit easier than the Italian, and it probably is, since it would be modern Spanish.
@@tomlabooks3263 I've only read the Comedy in English, but I plan to try Spanish in my next read through since the language is closer to Italian than English is. And I guess the difficulty depends on what the translator's going for, some go for accuracy and others for a more accessible text. I'll have to do some research to find a good Spanish translation.
This canto is so intense!
😅 It really is. More and more darkness, the deeper we go. If you look in my playlist, I just recorded some comments about it in italian (English subtitles are available). And I concluded the video by saying “I can’t wait to be on the shores of Purgatory”… That’s where the Light of the poem really starts.
Besides, compassive and rhetorical at the same time.
I’ll have to give Ros the credit for her observation about the subtlety of Dante’s retelling of the myths. This canto had everything I love! Vivid, ghastly, ghostly, and emotionally fraught. Musa’s translation may not be as tortured as Dante’s, since I found the weirdness really compelling and even beautiful. I hadn’t made the connection that the pilgrim’s despair at the beginning of his journey may have bordered on suicide, and your observation of that made this canto even more poignant. I agree with you: this is one of my favorites so far.
Nobody knows exactly how long it would take him to compose one canto, but having read the entire poem a couple of times I get the impression that - like with many other really long works of literature - it took him a while to find his footing and to reach that 100% confidence in what he was writing. He probably got to that point only around this canto, and from here onwards he just gets better and better. Thanks for your great company as always.
Agree ...the imagery in this canto is stunning .. I live close to some oak woods where the trees are withered and tortured and this canto took me there ...and also to the woods near Tokyo .....I got Steve Ellis's translation for my birthday and now have that to read alongside Muso ...
@@hesterdunlop7948 Thanks Hester for watching. I’ll be really curious to hear from you about the Ellis translation, whether you find it smooth or clunky, more literal or more “interpreted”, etc.
@@tomlabooks3263 it's supposed to be in plain language which will suit me ...I loathed the Dorothy L Sayers translation ,but gave been enjoying Muso
@@hesterdunlop7948 Hi Hester I received a notification about your message with a link to a Guardian article, but I think RUclips deletes messages with links, this is why it’s not showing. Thank you for sharing anyway - I see it talks about Dante’s descendants?
I love your annotations to this canto and by the way, I have two questions. Is there any meaning for the dogs that killed the two naked men? and what's the difference between these animals to the centaurs in the previous canto?
Hi Jeff - these are female dogs, that in ancient times used to symbolize poverty and also creditors. So there is a sort of contrapasso here for these souls: they are being maimed and torn to pieces just like in life they destroyed their wealth. While the symbolic meaning for these female dogs is straight-forward, the centaurs carry a heavier significance, with their half-human body and the direct allusion to our animal nature. I hope this is helpful.
@@tomlabooks3263 oh really thank you, it helps!
I found myself almost exhausted at the end of this canto. So much (as you say, densely packed) to open up; how deeply involved with the history and events of the times. Do you happen to know how long it took Dante to write the Divine Comedy? My next book will have to be a biography of Dante, his family, schooling, his history. I see now, why you say that scholars can spend their entire lives reading this and thinking.
Hi Lee. He probably started to write it in 1307, if not earlier, and Paradiso was finished very shortly before his death in 1321. It’s certain that he dedicated heart and soul to it, but the way each canto has so many layers and meanings, depending on how you look at it, and the endless ramifications, that can only be the work of an incredibly gifted mind. If you’re interested in a good, recent biography, you can check out “Dante: the story of his life” by Marco Santagata. Thank you for your comment!
As a matter of fact, Dante Alighieri died in exile in Ravena, Italy on September 13, 1321.
I found the discussion (at around 29:12) of "window" vs "outlet" to pain interesting. I lean toward preferring "window", actually. But my preference is related to the following personal experience: In a local nature preserve years ago, I saw that someone had (to mark a trail) screwed into the trunk of several trees a colored 1x5 inch metal bar using two wood screws. I was horrified at seeing this method of marking a path (especially in a nature preserve) when a far less invasive method (paint) could have been used. I wanted to leave a message that this was unacceptable. So the next time I went there, I brought along stickers with "Ouch!" written on them and glued them to the metal bars. In other words, I wanted the perpetrator of the trail marking to have a "window" into the "pain" of the tree. Could it be possible that the intention was to have the harpies be able to be aware of the pain of the condemned? I realize my story is kind of weird; and preserving "window" here probably goes against most translations. At any rate, I am sure to remember this canto whenever I see those markers again! Thanks for another great video.🙏
That’s a very original way to give those trees a voice!
Or maybe "Ow!", if you prefers.
Those trees!
Pretty creepy huh !?
@@tomlabooks3263 Yep!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_della_Vigna