Almost all Pokemon game footage and music here comes from Mixeli/Pokeli, a channel specializing in recording and archiving game footage and music from every Pokemon game possible. Go check out their channel to enjoy a trip down memory lane. I never want to have to pronounce the phrase "Elite Four" again anytime soon... I don't even know how many times I had to repeat that term in this one video.
Keep working on these videos! I appreciate the time stamps as well! I've been loving these videos since the first one, and your quick growth is well deserved.
@Shin3y My thanks. I always do my best to cite my video sources and music whenever possible. Maybe some people will go on to discover Ghost Trick, or look up some obscure channel/game which catches their eye. I'm not sure if this channel can really be considered to have "quick growth". Many other big name channels tend to capture more attention regarding Pokemon or other games than me. But I didn't start this hobby to get famous anyway - I just enjoy talking about the art of Game Design and hope that others can also develop an appreciation for games on a deeper level too.
The Elite 4 are not just a boss rush, they're a pre-final boss boss rush. Those are used to hype up the final boss and intimidate the player, even if the rush isn't particularly strong. When you juxtapose them against the final boss (or the champion in Pokemon's case) the champion ends up looking way stronger than it actually is. I'm starting to realise that final bosses are less about the actual fight and more about the theatrics around said fight. Maybe games are more than just gameplay.
You are beginning to see the trick of game design. Back in University, one of the first things my design professor ever told us was "Games are NOT exclusively about mechanics. They are about selling a fantasy, and mechanics exist to make that fantasy into reality." Gameplay and mechanics are simply a way for players to control and engage with the game. They are necessary, yes. But most of the time, it isn't what most players actually care about. Think about games such as Kingdom Hearts, or Devil May Cry. People didn't get interested in it because of gameplay mechanics. They were interested because you get to run around in Disney worlds with a Final Fantasy character, or because Dante was cool. People didn't fall in love with Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing because of the farming/simulation mechanics, but because of the world and characters. God of War wasn't didn't catch interest because of the gameplay, it caught attention because you could murder all of the gods. Ace Attorney and Danganronpa aren't liked because they are visual novels, they are loved because of absurd lawyer and murder narratives Same goes for boss fights. They are all about the experience, and making sure that experience is fun. A good example is Splatoon 3's bosses: all of them are fairly easy, but because they all involve interesting setpieces, music, presentation, and characters, they are all universally considered to be extremely fun. Some bosses are meant to be difficult. But not every good boss is a difficult boss, and not every difficult boss is a good boss.
@@GoldenOwl_Gamethis is the exact feeling BotW and TotK final bosses have. Both are extremely easy, with the challenge being the other fases (Calamity Ganon and Ganondorf & minions, respectively). Then you get the very last bosses, and while they are way easier than many common enemies, they definitely are memorable with the music, the environment, the dialogue, etc.
@@GoldenOwl_Game I don't think I agree with your professor. Everything they said was right but in my opinion what they said is not a good advice to go for when you have full control over the game (individually or as a team). You can dress up a simple and even boring game into a narrative that makes it a great success but it's the mechanics that give games their longevity. My design philosophy is that a game needs to be fun to play even if you strip away all the graphics and story. This is the baseline you build upon. I followed this principle ever since I started designing games, not sure how many years is that but it was around the time Minecraft came out. It's the same principle that Team Cherry used when making Hollow Knight and it shows. At first I wanted to end this comment by saying how ironic it is to say something like this under a video about Pokemon, which still remain relevant so many decades after release despite simple and boring mechanics. But after thinking about it a little bit more, I think that Pokemon prototype would still be a fan experience with placeholder graphics and moves, with no story and just battling and unlocking new areas. You would just need to imagine a little bit of fantasy for yourself.
@@GoldenOwl_Game It should depend on the game. Roguelike and roguelite design is very mechanics-focused, and they have been having a huge boost in popularity lately. It's true that a lot of games are about the story, but there's a kind of player/audience that will latch unto the mechanics. Fighting games and other competitive games. Puzzle games. Tetris is a blank, storyless game that people just love. There's room in game design for both. Pokemon isn't a mechanically challenging game, and yet, people make nuzlockes and other mechanically centered challenges for it. It's not so black and white.
I'd argue they serve a fourth role: confounding single-Pokémon users. I think everyone knows at least one person who picked their starter and saw no reason to use any other Pokémon at all (if you don't know someone like this you likely were this person). Typically, it will have very strong moves with maybe a utility move (status effect, protect, etc). Given how over-leveled a single Pokémon team can become this works just fine throughout the game. Maybe they run across a bit of a challenge but the inclination to just grind levels higher is there and given the weak levels of their other Pokémon its more effective use of their time. But the Elite Four presents a different sort of challenge. Lets imagine you have a Blastoise lvl. 75 with Blizzard (or Ice Beam), Surf, Earthquake (or Dig), and lets say Double Team. This move set combined with the lvl advantage has wrecked everything in your path. But the total PP you have is between 30 and 35 for damage causing moves. You face 26 Pokémon in Gen 1's Elite Four + Champion. This means that you potentially have a very narrow margin of error for misses and opponents tanking hits. Again, misses haven't mattered much until now because you could just run to a Pokémon Centre if you needed to. Well, play time is over and you are about to get smacked down for poor decision-making. Sure, there are PP restoration items but they are a limited quantity in pretty much every game and there is a reasonable chance that they were trashed during the playthrough as you never needed them. The game does give the single Pokémon user an out though as there is (at least in Gen 1 & 2) a chance to catch at least one legendary Pokémon before this. Much like the Brock fight the player can keep banged their head against the wall or try and find more Pokémon to fill out their team.
12 y.o. me finished Pokémon Yellow only with the starter Pikachu without major problems. If weak ass Pikachu does the job, I'm pretty sure the other starters won't have a problem either. The usefulness of PP restoring items should be obvious to everyone but the youngest players, so I don't think many people toss them instead of putting them into the PC.
@@Thraim. Now here's the problem. You expect people to actually use those items instead of hanging onto them for a better time even though they're on the final boss. I still don't use eithers because they're rare and what if I need them in the post game.
i dont buy this because using 1 pokemon makes pokemon games SIGNIFICANTLY easier, i was bad at games as a kid but blasting through pokemon with 1 mon was way easier to me. and PP isn't really a concern, since you are only using 1 overlevelled mon, you end up using way less items and by the time you get to the e4 you'll have plenty of PP recovery
One more note: going back to handicapped novelty, Lance fits the bill really well. Dragon type is the only type in the entire game you never fought before. You can catch Dragonite line in Safari Zone, but no trainer other than Lance uses them. And they have many resistances with only one weakness. It can become a brick wall to some players, until they either over-level from rematches, or figure out the Dragon weakness - Ice (or rock vs Dragonite). This can make Lance feel really powerful, justifying his position as an Elite Four champion.
I always make this point with people who complain about his team. I ask these people if they really expect me to believe your 7 year old ass just knew back then to bring an ice type on your team just for lance and you also happened to solo his team with it?
Rock is actually good against most of Lance's team, with only Gyarados having an answer in the form of Hydro Pump. Even Electric isn't terrible if you're using a Raichu or caught Zapdos in the Power Plant. It's also worth noting Hyper Beam's drawback of needing a turn to recharge afterward grants you a free turn to hit back if your Pokemon survives the hit.
One thing I am curious about is why the evolution levels for so many Generation 5 Pokemon are so high. It seems like a strange decision that completely turns off so many people from considering them, and I myself will never use the likes of Deino, Larvesta, or Tynamo because of how deep into the game you have to be in order for them to reach their full potential, with Deino in particular almost never fully evolving before the end credits.
I think that their evolution levels were set that high in order to justify their late-game placements in Black and White. Or vice-versa. For example, Pawniard evolves at level 52, but isn't available until Route 9 (the route right before the last Gym), where it's found at levels 31-34. Therefore, you have approximately 20 levels with it as a Pawniard before it evolves into Bisharp. By contrast, Blitzle evolves into Zebtrika at level 27, and is first available on Route 3 at levels 8-11. Again, this gives you about 20 levels before it evolves. I believe the thought process was something along the lines of "keep the amount of time the Pokemon stays in the form the player catches it at consistent." Unfortunately, they apparently didn't consider how annoying it would be in subsequent games when these Pokemon were made available earlier in the game than they were intended to be in their introductory games. You'd think they would have adjusted the level requirements.
This may be a crazy theory, but i believe it was because they wanted to show level scaling. Pokemon Black&white was basically Game freak "competitive experiment" (the first game with a lot more focus in competitive play, mostly because the pokemon world tournament added videogame championship in the middle of gen 4) and a lot of the game's design was made with competitive in mind. for example, a lot of pokemon are effectively retrains of gen 1 pokemon with min maxed stats (this is the first gen to introduce notable power creep between the new and old pokemon), a lot of pokemon got crazy abilities, which you'll likely not get until post game because of how the dream world worked, a lot more moves seem to be focus in PvP double battles the two addition that stand out the most were team preview (you get to see your opponent team before the battle) and level scaling (if you set the battle to level 50, which is the standard level in official competitive games, pokemon above it get scale down to level 50, instead of being banned like in previous generations), level scaling was technically introduced in HGSS, but gen 5 was the first they designed pokemon with this feature in their games. Some people assume that Zoroark's ability "illusion" was made to highlight the utility of team preview, since without it the ability would be a little unfair. And if that's the case, there's the chance they made some pokemon evolve a little after level 50 just to highlight the advantages of level scaling.
Adding to the other comments, it was also probably to discourage the play style where you over level a single Pokemon and steamroll the game, only keeping others around to max revive the ace. By delaying their strongest forms, players are encouraged to keep a balanced team and think more carefully about types and movepools.
@@pn2294 lets put things into perspective: The highest level pokemon in gen 5s base story is Ghetis lvl 54 Hydragon. A lot of pokemon introduced in BW do not evolve until after that point. Hell, Hydragon itself evolves at lvl 64, 10 lvls above then what it is in the final fight. So the answer is simple- most players don’t want to use unevolved pokemon during the endgame fights. Pokemon that are unevolved more often then not have way lower bst then their evolved counterparts. And when your opponents will basically always have a fully evolved team, your at an incredible disadvantage. To the point where it could be argued it’s unfair, especially when some of the fights have these evolved pokemon at lower levels then they should (see above). Sure theres the evoilite that will ease this a bit, but you’re only gonna get one of those and not all pokemon will really benefit from it ether. It’s really a simple case of “Why would I use Tynamo when its super weak, and evolves at a stupidly high level, when there’s Joltick in the same area? Joltick will evolve before the flying gym and can continue being a useful team member for the long run instead of waiting in the back with an exp.share till the elite four like Tynamo will be.”
This reminds me of how, in generations 1 and 2, the stat experience system allowed for bosses to have Pokemon who were much higher level than the player's Pokemon. This gave the illusion of difficulty when in reality, the player's Pokemon had better stats. The best example of this is the most famous Pokemon boss of all time, Red from GSC. His Pokemon are in the 70s, while the player's Pokemon are in the mid-40s, without grinding. But between the stat XP system and very exploitable weaknesses, Red is easier to defeat than expected. An analysis of GSC Red would be greatly appreciated.
Very astute! Also, I love this idea! An analysis on GSC's Red would be really fun. He's held up as being this awesome wall of awesome, despite the fact that he's not nearly as difficult as his vastly inflated Levels would imply that he should be, especially in his debut GSC.
personally i've developed a headcanon [not purely my own creation] for an in-universe explanation of why the E4 have that odd first-fight weakness followed by being notably stronger, as well as why you don't really usurp the champion [i know the actual reason is so the player can play longer this is in-universe we're talking about]; the idea of the E4 having a sort of lesser championship so prodigious kids that can't deal with the politics can still aim high. after all the gym leaders seem to be local role-models and protectors, often with added roles like scientists and stardom of some kind, so it only makes sense that the E4 and especially the champion have an even higher amount of responsibility [plus manga and anime lore puts them at the forefront when things go down] it's definitely neat to see that there was an out-universe reason for this stuff
Gen 5 really fixed the E4 level curve. You can battle them in any order, which is a minor improvement, but they're at the same levels. In Gens 1-4, it doesn't make much sense to have a large level distribution across the E4 and champ. Most hardcore Nuzlockers use a level cap of the final E4's ace (as opposed to using rare candies to reach match the level of each E4 member), so their teams are overlevelled for the first few members making these fights are a lot easier.
@@pn2294 Because it's most fair to play when your team is the same level as your opponent's. The only way to do this during Gen 1-4 E4s is to cheat with rare candies. If you match the first E4's ace, you'll be underlevelled for the rest of the E4 and champ. If you match the last E4's ace, the first few members will be easier because of level advantage.
That's only with preconceived knowledge of the game though, on top of ridiculous grinding. a level cap'd nuzlocke isn't generally reflective of what your actual experience will be. The reason there's such a large area of levels in the elite four is to give off a dramatic sense of progression. Of course a mightyena and a salamence aren't going to be on the same level, it's designed for you to go from common mons to the best of the best, to show how far you've come. In gen 5, all of the members being the same difficulty not only means that you can't have that experience, it can actually make the fights progressively easier rather than harder.
I remember the first elite4 bring a huge challenge to me as a kid, mostly because I was so young but they weren't so difficult that I couldn't think of things to adjust, so I never felt discouraged when losing
I just thought of something: In your Geeta video, you said that one of the reasons she was easier than most (if not all) other champions was because she was never meant to be the final challenge for the story route she was a part of, let alone the game as a whole. Taking what was said in this video into account, Geeta now appears like an addition to the usual Elite 4 boss rush, basically hitting the first two bullet points of what makes any other Elite 4 a well-designed boss fight (presenting a decent but doable challenge that also rewards EXP and money for what comes later).
Well, I can understand some of your points...but in the case of the Elite Four back in Generation 1. It's also worth nothing that there were OTHER issues or even oversights to why the Elite Four teams (and heck, even the champion's tean) back in Red/Blue aren't very good. Like in Agatha and Lance's case, there weren't a lot of ghost and dragon types back in generation one in the Kanto Dex. But more importantly...a huge part of the issue with Red/Blue is how almost all the Pokemon in many trainer's teams are HEAVILY reliant on moves that they learn in their level up moveset depending on the level you face the said trainer pokemon at, with occasional exceptions for some major trainer fights. (like for gym leaders, the moves that the TMs you get from them contains. Bruno having a Machamp with Fissure or how Lance has an illegal Dragonite with Barrier) It's why Bruno's level 53 and 56 Onixes know Rage (which is incredibly flawed in Generation 1) and Rock Throw, or why his level 58 Machamp knows Focus Energy. (which is bugged in Gen 1) And...to Gamefreak's credit, they actually realized some of the issues with Red/Blue and they did TRIED to remedy this in Pokemon Yellow by improving the Elite Four's movesets like actually giving Bruno's Onixes GOOD moves (Dig, Rock Slide, and Earthquake) for example or giving Lorelei's Slowbro actual good attacking moves or giving Agatha's first Gengar Mega Drain for potential ground types. And since Yellow, they've for the most part been consistent in at least trying to give the Kanto Elite Four good moves.
True...plus they didn't give his Machamp the moves Rock Slide and Earthquake, moves that this pokemon CAN learn in Gen 1. Not to mention Gen 1 Bruno is still held back by his random AI. Tbf, Double Team on Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee can be something to be wary about...that while the elemental punches are awful for Hitmonchan due to being special moves, they do have the small chance of inflicting status conditions so that's something. Still though. Overall... Bruno's Yellow Team is a step up from his Red and Bluno team where his movesets are downright inexcusable.
Great video! Just wanted to add a point on the resource management aspect of the elite 4. They use up pp on your moves. Running out of pp on your big moves can make the champion battle more difficult. And unlike pther sections of the game, you cant just run to the pokemon center to get that pp back.
Adding to this, PP-restoring items were rare and finite. And given the limited bag space, combined with not generally being in a position where you _need_ to use them most of the time before the Pokemon League gauntlet, meant either those items were hoarded and never used, placed in the Item Storage PC (which also had a limited capacity), or tossed or sold away.
The "relatively gimped teams for the purpose of using them for grinding EXP and money" checks out, since I remember falling back on that several times when I was younger. I think it plays into how many Gym Leaders as well as E4 members tend to only have one or two powerful and memorable Pokemon even when their teams are larger, where the rest of the team members are like flunkies or adds that help you understand the main boss's strategy but aren't as large of threats on their own, so you're just trying to not exhaust yourself before you reach the important part. I don't remember Winona's team; I remember trying to use a Graveler to deal with her Altaria and getting Dragon Dance Earthquaked for my trouble. I don't remember Sabrina's Gen 1 team; I remember being stifled by her Alakazam spamming Recover because I didn't know how to damage it effectively. Jasmine's two Magnemite are basically just decorations for her monstrous Steelix. There are certainly some Gym Leaders who have stronger overall strategies - Wattson's use of paralysis and confusion over his whole team, BW Elesa's Emolga using Volt Switch into Zebstrika to confound your attacks against changing weaknesses, Pryce's use of Icy Wind on everyone to slow your Pokemon to a crawl, et cetera - but even they use mostly weaker Pokemon with one or two much stronger standouts that are usually fought last. I also appreciate the nod to the AI oversight used accidentally by TPP Red as a consequence of the E4's subpar movesets. Lance may have mystical dragons at his command, but he's no match for a moth in a 4-wheeler.
Wattson might as well have two aces - Manectric and Magneton. Having to face a very solid Steel type this early into the game is brutal if you don't pick Mudkip.
One other aspect you touched on but didnt discuss fully was secrecy and surprise, especially in grn 1. Most of the Elite 4 are unknown to the player until they arrive. The player beforehand only new that "bosses" were themed and knew what that theme was beforehand and are able to prepare for them. Less so, or not at all for some of these. Clues in some gens were their rooms giving clues, like Loreli being water themed (though shes an ice focus). Some, none at all. In gen 1, you were made well aware of 4 consecutive fights, but then you get slapped on at the end of a 5th fight against your rival. What a surprise and memorable moment! Time to finish all of this!
Elite 4 teams being "intentionally bad" is probably pushing it, because otherwise they wouldn't take as many steps to improve them as much as they do in rematches, remakes and third versions. The Sinnoh Elite 4 in Platinum have teams that are about as good as they feasibly can be within the constraints of being monotype, because they could look at the teams they made in Diamond and Pearl and refine them based on an expanded Pokedex. For a more extreme example, the rematch teams in Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl use outright competitive-level team structures, move choices and items, again with the caveat of being monotyped, because they were implemented by people with more than a decade of experience with the region and that iteration of the Elite 4. The first Elite 4 were filling in for types that the game hadn't used elsewhere, and that meant some awkward compromises - the most obvious being Agatha representing Ghosts, when there was only one evolutionary line of them, so they went with some 'scary' Poison types rather than giving her five Haunters or Gengars. The movepools are mostly victims of how bafflingly constructed Gen 1 is on a fundamental level, like Hitmonchan having the elemental punches. With all that said, it's pretty obvious that Elite 4 teams are deliberately compromising in order to preserve the difficulty curve, because they've never had a full roster of six Pokemon - that's a luxury reserved for the rival and/or the final boss(es) of each game, including the Champion right after them. I'd say there's an important distinction between being 'intentionally bad' and 'deliberately held in check', though - and the presentation of the Elite 4 typically does a better job at conveying the latter than, for example, the way Geeta is portrayed in Scarlet/Violet.
If by 'good' you meant 'strong', a lot of fan made games have monotype Gym Leaders and Elite Four members that are significantly stronger than anything in Platinum. If not, then carry on!
One of the things people dont touch on ofyen is Pokemon is a game where your party membets arw modular and also make up the enemies and bosses you fight. It has a massive cascading effects on the design and implications from a design standpoint. Im glad you touch on this!
7:09 When discussing weaknesses of the Elite Four: _"And Lucian is using a Girafarig..."_ I will not tolerate this, because Girafarig is immune to you Ghosting my boy.
I'd argue Hala's team lacking half their moves served another purpose as well: Making it so his team is more likely to use high-damage moves without having to tamper with his AI. His Crabominable and Bewear both have their strongest STAB attacks and one coverage move, as well as high Atk and HP, making them rather focused beefcakes to take down despite their apparent flaws. For Kanto's Elite 4, something interesting I noticed in this video and in my countless replays of Red, is that Lorelei, contrary to her collegues Agatha and Bruno uses mons that you don't really see at all on your journey, unless you go out of your way. Shellyder/Cloyster are barely found outside Seafoam Islands, same goes for Slowbro (though Slowpoke is a bit more commonly found on trainers). Jynx is completely absent, except for the one you can trade for and Lapras (by far her strongest pokemon in moves and bulk combined) is hyped up as super rare and only available as a present. Her bulky team feels much more put together than Agatha's or Bruno's while being almost entirely rare or new mons, giving me the impression she's designed to build an expectation of difficulty and look imposing, so you go in with a bit of tension. The same could be said of Will in Gen2, who consistently presents a challenge for appropriately leveled teams because his Psychic is only resisted by a handful of mons, while his follow-ups are much weaker. Lance obviously stands out every time with his higher levels and usually new or rare pokemon. Something that still puzzles me, is the Elite 4 of Pokemon BDSP specifically. Cynthia has a scary reputation, sure, but the entire Elite 4 in BDSP presents an anomaly, as their teams throughout have competitive items and movesets (competitive in the sense that they are mechanically sound) as well as, to my knowledge, actually good stats and EVs. The rest of the game usually ends up being trivial because you get so much exp and because affection effects can get quite busted (a Super Luck Honchcrow can achieve 100% crit rate by default) but then the Elite 4 not only are VERY high level (counteracted by the excess caused by the exp share) but also can actually crush evenly leveled mons by manner of minmaxed stats and moves. They feel extremely out of place in a game that seemingly made sure all the way to give the player an excess of resources and experience.
This is why modern bosses having less than 4 moves isn't an issue. Classic bosses had 4 moves, but most were useless, non-damaging moves. Like Sydney's Absol using Snatch.
@@tk24life Roark's Relicanth & Gardenia's Sunflora from BDSP rematch team r ideal examples of this where they only have 1 move (recoiless Head Smash & Solar Beam under the sun set up by the lead respectively) & also a Choice item to maximize their stat. So, sometimes not having all 4 of them will help in compelling AI to select the hardest hitting move possible. But here's the thing, tho why not just fill their mons' moveset w useful coverage or support, like Trick Room Carbink, Bullet Punch Hariyama, Rest Gigalith, Substitute Poison Jab Poliwrath etc.
I know that this will probably get buried in the pile, but I just wanted to say that this was a really great and interesting take on a topic I’d never thought to consider before; thanks for taking the time to put it together! I’m very new to the industry, so I’m trying to soak up as many different perspectives and insights on various game design topics as I can. I really appreciate you putting in the effort and consideration that it took to write this, and for sharing it with us. Thanks! I’m definitely gonna go check out some of your other content now!
Nothing ever gets truly buried. RUclips studio notifies me whenever there’s a new comment on any video. I enjoy reading through all of them when I’m on a bus or something I’m glad you enjoy it. Being a game designer is enjoyable, though unfortunately, working in the industry is much less so. I hope you manage to find your way through
Also, the Elite 4 is the fighting part of the Victory Road. While Victory Road is all about the exploration, and potentially finding powerful new additions to your team to fix it before the final challenge, the Elite 4 is all about fighting. They're basically souped up version of regular Gym Trainers before you can take out the Ultimate Gym Leader. (It also mean you can't change/improve your team midway through)
The other interesting thing is that gym leaders are often foreshadowed and the Pokemon you need to beat them are often nearby. With the elite 4 you don't know what types they will use and you have to beat all 4 of them.
I never thought about it like that. The idea of the Elite 4 living on hype alone is really interesting. It’s incredibly impressive that the series has maintained the illusion the illusion of the Elite 4’s power for so long.
I revisted Pokemon Blue and beat the elite four literally just now. I was feeling pretty proud of putting together a strong team until I saw this get recommended to me. Heck
i would LOVE to see you break down the design philosophy behind volo's fight. he's unexpected, difficult and unfair. it took me, an adult with a maxed stat team, several tries to beat him. admittedly i didn't grow up with pokemon, so while i know a decent amount, i'm not as good as a veteran player. volo seems like an outlier even compared to cynthia since a lot of people (especially kids) don't see him coming and aren't prepared for a six vs. eight fight like that! i know volo is after the credits, but he's required to complete the objective the whole game is centered around of catching all pokemon!
They probably expected players to use Dialga/Palkia or any of the other legendaries you had to catch before the fight, since they make the fight much more easy
@@tinycatfriend Cresselia is actually great in the fight, since her bulk and psyquic and fairy attacks are perfect for the battle. Also, there is an alpha Garchomp in the snowlands that compleatly trivialises the battle
I managed to get him first try because I had two tanks to absorb hits while I Max Revived the rest of my team. A lot of which I'm pretty sure he sold me. But if I hadn't brought Snorlax and if I hadn't randomly caught a shiny Hippowdon, I'm sure this would be a much different story.
Hey, I asked for this topic! I'm really excited to watch this one 😅 Edit: So watching the video, this explains a lot! Namely, I've never really thought of the "tool to farm EXP for the champion fight" angle. That makes a lot of sense and suddenly I understand why so many questionable Pokemon/moves are used to make up these fights. Something I'm still curious about is, why do they still center their teams around one specific type at this point in the game? Is it simply because it's a boss rush, and therefore players need to accommodate for multiple types anyways? I always found it odd that the only trainer allowed to use multiple types is the champion. Anyways, loved the video! I definitely feel that you make the most interesting and best Pokemon content on the site as of late. I'd love to see you tackle some other games & genres as well!
Regarding Champions, a lot of Champions are also Type-themed. (Even if a number of those tended to have exceptions due to not really having enough of a given Type to go around in that given game's Pokedex, ala Lance being more "Flying themed" than Dragon, or Steel-preferenced Steven having more of an excavation/archeological bent due to a lack of Steel Pokémon in Hoenn's Pokedex.
The reasoning behind the elite four's design is really fascinating... honestly, even though you're a newer youtube channel, I look forward to every video you put out, even compared to a lot of the other channels I'm subscribed to. A lot of these design ideas are also applicable to other games, so it's not just useful specifically to pokemon. Any game designer could benefit from this.
Game Design principles in general can apply to many different games. Once you see the trick exposed in one game, you can begin to see how other games employ that same trick. It's what makes game design a double edged sword to study. You learn a lot about the technical aspects and can critically look at games differently... but at the same time you also lose a lot of the fun and excitement from being caught off-guard. It's like a magician watching another magician's performance. A lot of the fun is gone once you understand what goes on underneath the curtain, but you gain the ability to appreciate things from a technical perspective instead. Pokemon's just an excellent example subject because its the world's most popular media IP. Everybody has played Pokemon before, meaning that it is very easy to explain things and a viewer can understand it more easily. If I were to use... say... Ace Attorney as an example, that might fly over people's heads a bit.
Really enjoy your channel, it brings a different perspective to the games I've loved for ages. I remember being a kid and having so much trouble with the elite four but at the same time thinking they are so cool. In Generation 1 there were very few adults playing the game. Compared with today there are perhaps just as many adults as children that play each version and because of that Pokemon are in a tough spot in their game design. The easiest fix would be to implement a difficulty mode for the player to choose at the start. Without that the designers have to design a game that kids can play (and enjoy enough to become lifelong fans like the rest of us) but still know that millions of adults will be playing the game.
Honestly, with the "Unova" Elite Four in the Pokemon SV DLC, they are in the right direction. It's more challenging with the double set, however it makes it more fun and brings way more hype for the champion fight. If Gamefreak ever decides to upgrade the Elite Four in the future, Double battle, triple battle, rotation battle, etc. All of them could be extremely unique and fun in the Elite Four
I think a lot of casual opinion about game design is that difficult = good and easy = bad. I'd be curious to know how you feel about BDSP's game balance as I think the jump to the Elite 4 was pretty notorious in that game, since it seems as though the rest of it did not balance around the exp share.
I think hyping up trainers and not making them actually hard is contradictory. Most people remember the Unova Elite 4 because they live up to their name, even with 4 Pokemon. Because they're also type specialists, you can still wipe the floor with 1 or 2 Pokemon and the right move. Plus, since it's an RPG, you're probably stuffed with potions. Pokemon's battle system makes it easy to abuse. For me, the idea of a boss rush should be reserved for optionnal post-game. And you should not be grinding against the final boss. Ideally, a well crafted adventure requires little grinding at the end. The final boss is the ultimate challenge, not a wall you bang your head against. And since you can brute force your way through, why not make the bosses hard ? I think you give them to much credit, especially for the first gen.
when you said that people were averse to final bosses being easy, i was reminded of super metroid, where the final boss has three phases, the first one is literally supposed to be easy, the second phase has attacks that, while dealing a lot of damage, can be dodged without even using the d-pad (no seriously, you just stand in place jumping over the projectiles), that second phase is also a damage sponge that will drain you out of all of your ammo, then you have a cutscene where the boss uses a hyper duper mega attack that beats you, only for a friendly 'face' to appear, heal you back to full, and then give to you that same hyper beam for you to use against the boss, after all that then we get the third phase, which... is a complete curbstomp... now lets compare that to the boss of the previous area, ridley, in that fight you have, fire balls everywhere, a dragon trying to grab you with its talons, and also trying to knock you into the lava using its tail and... oh yeah, i forgot to tell that the arena is a small platform surrounded by lava on all sides... needless to say, i died to mother brain 2 times, i died to ridley more times than i can count.
if you are woundering, the pokemon equivalent of this thing is, imagine you are playing pokemon crystal, ridley would be the equivalent of the entire elite four AND champion combined, and mother brain would be misty, however, also imagine that while you are playing crystal that way, your only mon is an overleved raticate...
Videos like this really allow me to see a new insight as to why certain things in video games are the way they are. Boss rushes are one of my favorite things in video games because they feel like an encore, a final test of strength to prove that you know the game's mechanics enough to prevail. They aren't super difficult (most of the time anyways), but are still fun and allow you to prove that you know what you're doing. This is why I love the Elite Four as a concept. They aren't hard, but are designed for intimidation, like the video mentioned. They seem hard, but if you don't let fear stop you and you push through the challenge, then you'll succeed as if it were easy. It's also why I love boss rushes in Mega Man games, the bosses you face the first time around seem really hard, but once you fight them again you'll most likely know how to defeat them. Of course this is just my two cents, watching this video in full really made me think about the boss rush concept as a whole and why some Elite Fours are harder than others. Great vid. ❤
Oh hey, nice Terra profile pic. Best Teen Titans girl Boss rushes toe a fine line between fun and frustrating, because they take up a lot of time and energy investment. If the player loses and resets it can feel really miserable if that happened due to a perceived cheap shot by the game.
Theres only one mistake, althrough you are correct about the designers purposely dumb down some elite 4 members pokemon and movesets, the reason of gen 1 be so weak is two factors: first is because they thematicaly use the most rare types of kanto, so having not much pokemon avaiable they mixed them up by giving some other types or giving non evolved mons to fill at least 3 mons of their speciality. Second is the fact that it was the begining of pokemon franchise, developers were yet to set the bar of "dificult" or "strong" trainers, remember that today is easy to distinguish what is a strong moveset and what is not, but the first time youd develop a game complex and inovative as pokemon u sometimes miss a lot of what is truly strong. Their movepools in code are just automaticaly set based on their lv up movepool, having only one special move chosen by developers (hence barrier dragonite) they just accepted that a high lv up movepool would be strong, and their had still not much idea that so many lv up movepools would still be useless
My comment was in your video!!!!! Yay!!!!!!!!!!! And to be fair towards the idea of fighting 4 sub bosses before the final boss, the idea of fighting something before the boss isn't that new... And it tested your skills of buying items and preparing that you learned earlier in the games.... you were even warned..... Also, I never noticed, but you are right... one of the main reasons the Elite 4 were so hard was because they were a boss rush... and your stronger moves had less PP... Oh, and let's not forget we were kids... many of us mostly relied on our starter Pokemon.... so the other Pokemon were random Pokemon we caught and didn't properly train... And as kids, our perceptive kept us from noticing that each individual elite 4 was easy... and our sub-optimal team design probably didn't help... In fact, while I noticed that the Elite 4 were easier, I chocked it up to being an adult that is way better at playing... And as a child, we didn't always know how strong/weak a move was... cause in the anime, we constantly saw the Pokemon use weaker moves.... I guess the main reason we don't give Geeta a pass is because usually, all of the other Champions actually did feel strong and balanced... The 4 elite 4 members being tough as a child along with the challenge of facing all 4 of them in a row and THEN dealing with a difficult Champion boss gave the League challenge a much greater difficulty... If we felt that difficulty after Geeta, then we wouldn't have had such issues... And the thing is, what you point out also makes the Nemona argument kinda moot... cause you are expected to heal at the Pokemon Center after Nemona... so the league tiring you out doesn't work....
"If the boss rush contains a new, never-before-seen boss, then this boss will typically be designed to be a bit easier" HAL labs: *laughs in Soul Melter EX*
Great video Golden Owl! Your humorous editing and the cozy fireplace at the end of the videos has already given your channel a lovable and endearing culture to me that keeps me coming back for more. Maybe your next video could be on Starmie as you mentioned wanting to do one on it? Best wishes for the future, from a fan of game design and creative thinking (and Ghost Trick).
The elite four was so scary to me as a kid that I never finished a pokemon game. When I finally tried it in Sun and Moon I was in college and was surprised that it was so much easier than I expected. And it's not even that I've become more determined or anything, because I still haven't gone back to the Volo boss fight in Legends Arceus after getting my ass kicked 5 times. I'm a classic 'if it's too hard I'll just go do something else' player archetype and it turns out that the elite four is designed just so people like me can still finish the games and feel satisfied with the experience. Who knew!
I would actually contest the idea that Hala's missing moves is a handicap for his team. Sure, a competent player could fill in those slots with other good moves and make effective use of them, but we've just finished looking at how many other Pokemon are saddled with bad moves that actively weigh them down, partially because Sand Attack is an objectively bad move and partially because the AI doesn't know how to use Swords Dance properly even when it has it. Contrast a Pokemon with two strong STAB moves: it's not gonna waste its turns, no matter what. "Just hit the enemy with your strongest attacks" is the ideal strategy for much of the game for a good reason, after all. Hala's team is consistent and reliable, even with Pokemon's AI behind it. The fact that his Crabominable only knows Ice Hammer and Close Combat means I'm going to get hit with one of those each turn, no exceptions, and that's if anything more scary than if it had more options.
This being the first video of yours I watched, I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the video and immediately went to watch your other videos. And I had a suspicion, but I was even prouder when I realised it was made by a fellow Singaporean. Keep up the good work and I look forward to your future work!🎉🎉
You should talk about the rival in gen 1. Which is utterly genius. He both shows you how and how not to play the game. He uses balance, yet he evolves all his stone evolution Pokemon before they can learn any moves.
I think the reason why Geeta is the only Champion that's so disliked is because it's so blatantly obvious that what she's doing is bad. You'll see that people's most cited reasons for why Geeta is weak would be her placing Glimmora last and Kingambit in the middle. These are incredibly obvious poor decisions, and are public information, unlike stuff like EVs/IVs and movesets. I'd bet that if you lower the level of the champion's mons by, like, 10 levels, but compensate with EVs and IVs, people will still think it's easier purely because they see the lower levels.
I feel that the e4 are fine being not as difficult as they could be, but the champions should be hard because the main issue is the fact healing is so easy to access it isnt actually difficult unless you intentionally handicap yourself
Nice analysis. This got me thinking of some more good design choices Gamefreak made with the gen 1 Elite Four. - They all have at least one mon that you don't see anywhere else in the game, giving them each a signature weapon if you will. - Lance is the only trainer in the entire game that uses dragons. They probably put the whole type in just so he could have something truly unique to challenge the player with. Dragons also resist fire, water and grass, the three starter types. - Your rival has a diverse team, no matter what you use there will be something that can cause you trouble. The weird movepools have more to do with the algorithm they used to build trainer teams. Every trainer pokemon you fight knows the last 4 moves in its level up movepool. Starting with yellow they took a more hands on approach and made sure they can put up more of a fight.
The Elite Four is a wall that's meant to be climbed. You go in unprepared; you'll fall off it a few times, but in the end that wall will get climbed. Part of the challenge is also the fact that for a long while the team that you brought in with you was all you could use. I can't remember if you could swap your team between matches in the newest games, want to say they mentioned in-game disabling doing that in Sword and Shield, but I don't remember for Scarlet and Violet, but going into the Elite Four plus Champion with the "wrong team" would also be part of the difficulty.
Bruno having two Onix in Gen 1 is us actually quite brilliant! Onix was such a threat early on, and now you can beat two of them without any difficulties. What better way of showing you how far you'll come?
RB Elite Four having trash movesets is more of hardware/software limitations I think. VERY few Trainers have special moves in first Generation. In Red/Blue if I remember right, it's only Gym Leaders and Champion having a TM on their ace. Everyone else just uses the default level-up moves, which leads to subpar movesets (and remember, level-up movesets in G1 are horrible and balanced around using TMs). It leads to hilarious shit with the stone evos, like Blue's Exeggutor, which specifically learn pretty much no moves naturally after evolving. This was fixed a bit in Yellow and was more thoroughly rectified in Gold and Silver, where even a random Trainer might be carrying a TM move on their Pokemon. Alola's Elite Four not having full movesets is as far as I understand, designed specifically so the AI doesn't waste time picking subpar moves. I guess this one is more of bandaid solution for subpar AI?
Regarding Generation 1...this, all this I agree and have pointed out in my comment. Because of how awful Gen 1 trainer movesets typically were back in Red/Blue, they did kinda realize this and tried to remedy this problem in Yellow by giving a lot of the major trainers a better moveset than they did in Red/Blue.
I wish we could see a sequel to the orre region where they have developped their own Elite Four in the form of a no-healing between battles colosseum. Or maybe 5 additionnal levels to Mt.Battle with no healing?
This gave me such fond memories of playing against the Elite Four in Silver and Red (my first two games) and the endless rematching because I was a kid who showed up with a non-EV trained team of Pokemon with no utility moves. And of post-game Silver where you'd use the Elite Four to grind all your other Pokemon up to evolving to fill your Pokedex. One factor is the music. I don't think the Elite Four/Indigo plateau music has ever not been some of the most epic sounding music in the game - it really makes you feel like you are n the presence of greatness and taking on the best of the best.
I think the elite four teams are designed as narrative experiences as well. If their teams were filled with intimidating pokemon every battle will feel over the top, I think the filler pokemons in their teams are designed as a break from the overall battle, you know, to lower down the tension. Love your videos!!
Almost 30 years later, and I still clearly remember the first time I beat the Elite Four on Blue version....... And then Butthead comes out and challenges you. Not ready for that at all. He destroyed me the first time.
That banter you made at the end of Geeta. Funnily enough, you can rematch Geeta during the Ace Academy Tournament but her Team was the same one. This would've been the perfect opportunity for the devs to do that. Oh well, here's hoping the 2nd half of the DLC will do that.
I have a couple things to say to this one. One, did you always have an echo, or is that just my phone or something? Two... I don't know if they designed the Gen 1 Elite Four's movesets at all? If I remember right, they basically just have the most recent Level Up Moves, and all the level up learnsets are mostly garbage. Three. Part of the resource management challenge is coming prepared for any Pokemon, right? You have 6 and you need enough variety for every single boss.
I did feel that the audio editing felt really off for this for some reason. Damn, I never realized that was an echo. Thank you for notifying me. I'll need to figure out a solution to that for next time... Also, yes, but actually no. Almost every one of the Elite Four's Pokemon are using their stock Level-Up Moveset. But their strongest Pokemon are all equipped with customized movesets, with moves obtained from TMs (Lapras's Blizzard, Gengar's Toxic, Machamp's Fissure) or otherwise impossible to learn (Dragonite's Barrier). There's also a few minor anomalies (e.g Golbat has Supersonic despite it's recent level-up move being Bite) This reinforces the point I raised above. Only 1 Pokemon on each E4 member is intended to be a meaningful threat, so they get special attention and customized movesets. The others are all more or less filler, so they just get basic movesets.
Interesting topic and great analysis. I had written off the elite four as an adult to be more of a test of endurance than five individual fights. Was fascinated to hear your thoughts.
Normally, pinning the blame on nostalgia doesn't sit well with me, but I sometimes think it might've contributed to older players' memories of earlier Elite Fours, and the earlier games in general. What I've noticed many Pokémon players forget is that we all sucked back when we first got into the series, and Pokémon was always first and foremost aimed at beginners. As we got more experienced, we outgrew bad habits that the games expect us to have, and have access to information that the games don't expect us to know.
to wit -- I was doing the Gym Leader rematch in Scarlet and Violet, and just with the knowledge of 1) All Gym Leaders are mono-type and 2) Their anchor mon is a off-type that Terastalizes into the theme type, I was able to build a teams that only suffered one mon lost twice (once was a deliberate sac to get something in clean, the other was me forgetting Crabomidable has Ice Hammer and I had a Grass type in) That was all on raw knowledge of type matchups and the tendencies I've noticed in team construction over 25+ years. There is precious little the AI can do to someone with game knowledge, unless you let the AI fully open itself up in team construction and routines (see the many Battle Facilities).
Something I actually find interesting about the Elite Four in Gen I is that there's no indication whatsoever ingame that you have to fight the "Champion" after the Elite Four. The only times ingame that the Champion is mentioned is in relation to *you* becoming the champion if you defeat the Elite Four, but never that you actually need to beat an already existing Champion after beating the Elite Four.
“Still places emphasis on an aspect of resource management” Good sir. I have played through Scarlet/Violet close to ten times at this point. I can very firmly say that you can get through the game comfortably without buying a single item. You find max elixirs all over the ground, not to mention the absolutely absurd amount of regular healing items. You don’t even have to be careful. Just pick up items and you’ll never even need to think about resources.
I remember losing to Drasna in X, losing to Korrina 3 times before evolving my Charmeleon into Charizard and losing to Shauntal 3 times at a minimum Just because the battles aren’t as hard as they can be doesn’t mean someone (especially a beginner) can’t lose to them
Another interesting aspect of Lance that you didn’t mention is that not only does he use pokemon you have likely never seen before so you don’t know how to deal with it but also dragon as a type resists your starter pokemon’s strongest stab moves because dragon resists Water, Fire, Electric, and grass so you can’t just brute force it with hydro pump or fire blast. And the only place to get ice types is an optional dungeon in the seafoam islands. Which makes Lance a very intimidating wall of a boss especially after having to go through the gauntlet of the rest of the E4 where your resources are drained and your pokemon are weakened.
It's interesting that a lot of people think the final boss is supposed to be the hardest in the game when in my experience, the battle right before the final boss tends to be super difficult and the final boss somewhat easier. The clearest example to me is the original Kingdom Hearts. I remember as a kid struggling over and over against Xehanort + his Heartless monster shield thing whereas I breezed through the final boss version of Xehanort fairly easily. IIRC in the SNES version of Aladdin, Jafar the human is much harder to beat than snake Jafar.
Best game ever made, Final Fantasy 6, is similar. The leadup to the final boss is a grueling tower that tests every party member to the core. The actual final boss well...the aesthetics are on point, the music is one of the best pieces ever put on a microchip, you genuinely want to beat this boss's smug face in so it's got the emotional component even...but his hit points are absolutely inexcusable. There's one infamous setup that can defeat him in ONE TURN.
Don't worry. I've nothing against disagreements and different opinions. Working in a Design-related field means you tend to run into those often and need to learn how to deal with it. I only pluck out comments to serve a purpose in the video. In this case, to highlight the sheer contradiction between people's expectations of a final challenge's difficulty, their memory of such, and the actual reality of said "difficult challenge" being actually easy. I actually encourage people like you to hold different perspectives and opinions on things. No one person can know everything and consider every angle. Alternate viewpoints is very useful for pointing out blind spots in logic.
I've never seen the Lapras Artwork with the teeth, it makes me appreciate it more as a mighty sea creature instead of an inflatable pool toy like its depicted in newer artworks.
So that is why the Blueberry League Elite Four are so muchh stronger than any other league? Because unlike them, you aren't forced to challenge the BB elite 4 in a row and instead have to fulfil side quest to get to them? Speaking of which can we get a whole video on Blueberry Academy and why it is so challenging and different from any other league? The champion Kieran even uses a competitively viable team, he too deserves a video!
I was told one time their choices were because they are more theme based than specifically type based. Gen 1 reflects this with the manga as reference. Bruno is all about “extreme training conditions” and Onix is demonstrated as that in the manga. So Lance has dragon looking mons as opposed to type specific. Karen (Gen 2) has dark colored/night time inspired mons, not specifically Dark type For me this explains Gen 4 a bit more too. As their mons may have been or somehow relate to that type in some way (Drapion was a bug before evo, and still looks like a giant scorpion; Drifblim as a hot air balloon uses fire to heat the air….idk about Lopunny it’s not a perfect theory)
I always thought about that when comes to Kanto, because Every elite 4 member has a major weakness, for exemple, lorelei is a ice type but almost every pokemon is Water type too, Bruno has 2 onix, Agatha is ghost but every pokemon has poison type, and Classic play to take down lance is bring ice beam. Like, with a eletric, psyquic and water pokemon you can sweep the entire elite 4 with no stress
I remember playing Pokémon red. I had barely beat Lance.. thought I won, so didn’t heal my team… only to walk in the next room. By the time you walk a certain distance, the game moves the player towards Blue/ starts the dialogue and battle on its own. Not like the other Elite 4 members where you initiate the fight by speaking to them. Went into the Champion battle totally unprepared with a team of fainted and half-fainted Pokémon. Got destroyed lol
The unova elite four are hard bosses I was slightly underleveled, but that didn't stop me from winning by stall tactics (heal stalling is not an effective strategy i think) they have only four pokemon each, but they use them with tactics that take expertise to counter and stump noobs like younger me with ease But the goal seems to be to make players feel like they've become strong after training hard
For me this epiphany happened when I did a "scouting run" of the elite four in gen 3 remakes I think. I cleaned up the whole elite 4 without healing items while underleveled. My Skarmory solo beat Stephen's team despite being 10 levels lower than his own Skarmory. I was confused...
While I agree that the elite 4 could have been tuned for a better experience, but I always enjoyed fighting them. To me, it wasn't a boss rush, but rather all of them together was the boss. It felt like a conglomeration of testing what you've learned throughout the game, from having a balanced team to having items to use and knowing when to use them.
I have a Video Idea for you. What are the items from Gen 1 supposed to be, in relation to a classic RPG? I never understood what an Elixir was as a kid, or why it was in a test tube
The first that comes to mind is the PokeBall you find in the grass, it esencially acts as your standard chest from an RPG. It also explains Voltorb and Electrode design, since they are the equivalent of mimics from classic RPGs
Another thing: If they really wanted the E4 to be hard, they would not have given them monotype teams. What they're actually doing is testing your teambuilding skills. Is your team balanced enough to take on four different type specialists? Ideally, each member of your team has something to contribute to at least one of those fights. Paldea doesn't really test your teambuilding skills at all. You can access the box between fights, and 3/4 of the E4 are weak to Ice moves. Bit of an oversight, I think
one thing i need to say is that the first game was created a long time ago, and at that time they did not have access to the mountain of knowledge that we have today; that by itself makes the game harder, especially if you add the fact that a lot of kids will be playing this too. Forcing the player to complete 5 fights in a row is a lot by itself, naturally they felt the need to nerf them a bit and thats a perfectly fine decision
I remember the earlier gens having a money penalty for losing. I wonder if that had something to do with the earlier elite 4 being seen as more difficult since if you were unable to defeat the first member at least, you would actually be put in a worse position than before. Compared to later gens that removed this (for the elite four at least) where all you needed to do was at least beat one pokemon to make some progress.
In my PokeMon game runs, I constantly level grind my entire team, and try to build balanced move-sets with the Elite 4 + Champion in mind. After a test run or two, you have everything worked out, and it's mostly one-attack Knock-Outs. Even Whitney, and her evil Miltank. 😅 There's almost always a Type advantage to exploit
The way I’ve always seen it the E4 are like if you can get through these guys I can give you a fight … just like gyms you beat a handful of trainers to fight the “boss”
15:38 "Given enough attempts, every player can hypothetically level up to eventually defeat the Elite 4 and complete the game" You can take the hypothetically out of that sentence, cause I purposefully did it myself once. I wanted to see how many attempts it would take to train a full team of 6 to the point that it could defeat the League by just using exp found *in* the League itself (and with no items allowed in between fights). I did it in FireRed and started with a balanced team at a level good enough to barely defeat the very first Pokémon in Lorelei's team. Needless to say, I was destroyed times and times again, but with each attempt the Pokémon got just a little bit stronger, until I was able to do a full run and beat the Champion. I couldn't tell you how many attempts it took me because I lost count along the way, but it was excruciatingly long and painful. But in the end it was worth it to literally see the team grow in front of your eyes and eventually steamroll on challenges that at the start seemed unbeatable. I wouldn't do it again, though. Or at least not in this lifetime 😂
At least in my experience, I found one place where that did not go to plan: Unova. You can get to the Elite four waaay to easy, and then having to go back and level up your mons or rerunning the battles multiple times is a pain in the benind
I know QA wasn't really a thing back then and they probably had a time crunch, but as an adult, did anybody else ever find it weird that they gave the original Elite Four status boosting moves but somehow it never occurred to them that their "smart AI" would only use that move even though it didn't deal damage? Well, it makes more sense when you view it as, "Yeah, it's working as intended." It lends credence to them supposed to be beaten. Or it actually is a bug because Gen 1.
I never actually thought about the Elite 4 not being meant to be difficult. I think as time went on, E4 teams hid their easier difficulty a lot better. It’s more emersive to see a Dhelmise using Shadow Ball over Slowbro using Water Gun.
These games are not supposed to be difficult. They're supposed to be beatable by literal elementary schoolers using whatever Pokémon they think looks cool. If the Elite Four were designed the way many players demand, they would only be beatable by a very restrictive number of possible teams. Why would you design a game with hundreds of monsters when only a handful of them end up viable? If you want to play hardcore Pokémon, either use your own house rules or get into PvP.
I do admit that I understand the game balance reason, but one of my biggest issues is how trainers consistently lack teams of 6 after the third gym in every game. Like I know that some trainers might focus on one or two, but you'd figure there'd be at least more people who see themselves surrounded by Pokemon and grabbing six Rattata, Schroodle, or even Venonat to reflect their hobbies, if not teams of different Pokemon.
Theres one crucial thing you didnt mention, the game allows you to save between fights, meaning that if a player wants to, they can just keep trying the one member that may be giving them trouble or keep a checkpoint after the kne that took a while to beat. when I realised I didnt need to keep wiping over and over to agatha's hippowdon suddenly 6 year old ne could beat the game
Well, my first game was Black 1, so to me they always was a nightmare,(kinda), just hanging in a slip and KOing me back with a super effective coverage. And their rematch teams are other level.
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Almost all Pokemon game footage and music here comes from Mixeli/Pokeli, a channel specializing in recording and archiving game footage and music from every Pokemon game possible. Go check out their channel to enjoy a trip down memory lane.
I never want to have to pronounce the phrase "Elite Four" again anytime soon... I don't even know how many times I had to repeat that term in this one video.
Keep working on these videos! I appreciate the time stamps as well! I've been loving these videos since the first one, and your quick growth is well deserved.
pin your comment pls 🙏
@Shin3y My thanks. I always do my best to cite my video sources and music whenever possible. Maybe some people will go on to discover Ghost Trick, or look up some obscure channel/game which catches their eye.
I'm not sure if this channel can really be considered to have "quick growth". Many other big name channels tend to capture more attention regarding Pokemon or other games than me. But I didn't start this hobby to get famous anyway - I just enjoy talking about the art of Game Design and hope that others can also develop an appreciation for games on a deeper level too.
Gonna review Temtem the devs claim it’s like Pokémon but better.
The Elite 4 are not just a boss rush, they're a pre-final boss boss rush. Those are used to hype up the final boss and intimidate the player, even if the rush isn't particularly strong. When you juxtapose them against the final boss (or the champion in Pokemon's case) the champion ends up looking way stronger than it actually is.
I'm starting to realise that final bosses are less about the actual fight and more about the theatrics around said fight. Maybe games are more than just gameplay.
You are beginning to see the trick of game design.
Back in University, one of the first things my design professor ever told us was "Games are NOT exclusively about mechanics. They are about selling a fantasy, and mechanics exist to make that fantasy into reality."
Gameplay and mechanics are simply a way for players to control and engage with the game. They are necessary, yes. But most of the time, it isn't what most players actually care about.
Think about games such as Kingdom Hearts, or Devil May Cry. People didn't get interested in it because of gameplay mechanics. They were interested because you get to run around in Disney worlds with a Final Fantasy character, or because Dante was cool. People didn't fall in love with Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing because of the farming/simulation mechanics, but because of the world and characters. God of War wasn't didn't catch interest because of the gameplay, it caught attention because you could murder all of the gods. Ace Attorney and Danganronpa aren't liked because they are visual novels, they are loved because of absurd lawyer and murder narratives
Same goes for boss fights. They are all about the experience, and making sure that experience is fun. A good example is Splatoon 3's bosses: all of them are fairly easy, but because they all involve interesting setpieces, music, presentation, and characters, they are all universally considered to be extremely fun.
Some bosses are meant to be difficult. But not every good boss is a difficult boss, and not every difficult boss is a good boss.
@@GoldenOwl_Gamethis is the exact feeling BotW and TotK final bosses have. Both are extremely easy, with the challenge being the other fases (Calamity Ganon and Ganondorf & minions, respectively). Then you get the very last bosses, and while they are way easier than many common enemies, they definitely are memorable with the music, the environment, the dialogue, etc.
@@GoldenOwl_Game Seems that I'm already ahead of the game design course I'm about to enter at university, then.
@@GoldenOwl_Game I don't think I agree with your professor. Everything they said was right but in my opinion what they said is not a good advice to go for when you have full control over the game (individually or as a team). You can dress up a simple and even boring game into a narrative that makes it a great success but it's the mechanics that give games their longevity. My design philosophy is that a game needs to be fun to play even if you strip away all the graphics and story. This is the baseline you build upon. I followed this principle ever since I started designing games, not sure how many years is that but it was around the time Minecraft came out. It's the same principle that Team Cherry used when making Hollow Knight and it shows.
At first I wanted to end this comment by saying how ironic it is to say something like this under a video about Pokemon, which still remain relevant so many decades after release despite simple and boring mechanics. But after thinking about it a little bit more, I think that Pokemon prototype would still be a fan experience with placeholder graphics and moves, with no story and just battling and unlocking new areas. You would just need to imagine a little bit of fantasy for yourself.
@@GoldenOwl_Game It should depend on the game. Roguelike and roguelite design is very mechanics-focused, and they have been having a huge boost in popularity lately. It's true that a lot of games are about the story, but there's a kind of player/audience that will latch unto the mechanics. Fighting games and other competitive games. Puzzle games. Tetris is a blank, storyless game that people just love. There's room in game design for both. Pokemon isn't a mechanically challenging game, and yet, people make nuzlockes and other mechanically centered challenges for it. It's not so black and white.
I'd argue they serve a fourth role: confounding single-Pokémon users. I think everyone knows at least one person who picked their starter and saw no reason to use any other Pokémon at all (if you don't know someone like this you likely were this person). Typically, it will have very strong moves with maybe a utility move (status effect, protect, etc). Given how over-leveled a single Pokémon team can become this works just fine throughout the game. Maybe they run across a bit of a challenge but the inclination to just grind levels higher is there and given the weak levels of their other Pokémon its more effective use of their time. But the Elite Four presents a different sort of challenge. Lets imagine you have a Blastoise lvl. 75 with Blizzard (or Ice Beam), Surf, Earthquake (or Dig), and lets say Double Team. This move set combined with the lvl advantage has wrecked everything in your path. But the total PP you have is between 30 and 35 for damage causing moves. You face 26 Pokémon in Gen 1's Elite Four + Champion. This means that you potentially have a very narrow margin of error for misses and opponents tanking hits. Again, misses haven't mattered much until now because you could just run to a Pokémon Centre if you needed to. Well, play time is over and you are about to get smacked down for poor decision-making. Sure, there are PP restoration items but they are a limited quantity in pretty much every game and there is a reasonable chance that they were trashed during the playthrough as you never needed them. The game does give the single Pokémon user an out though as there is (at least in Gen 1 & 2) a chance to catch at least one legendary Pokémon before this. Much like the Brock fight the player can keep banged their head against the wall or try and find more Pokémon to fill out their team.
12 y.o. me finished Pokémon Yellow only with the starter Pikachu without major problems. If weak ass Pikachu does the job, I'm pretty sure the other starters won't have a problem either. The usefulness of PP restoring items should be obvious to everyone but the youngest players, so I don't think many people toss them instead of putting them into the PC.
Young me playing with only Charmander, but catching Zapdos for the E4
@@Thraim. Now here's the problem. You expect people to actually use those items instead of hanging onto them for a better time even though they're on the final boss. I still don't use eithers because they're rare and what if I need them in the post game.
i dont buy this because using 1 pokemon makes pokemon games SIGNIFICANTLY easier, i was bad at games as a kid but blasting through pokemon with 1 mon was way easier to me. and PP isn't really a concern, since you are only using 1 overlevelled mon, you end up using way less items and by the time you get to the e4 you'll have plenty of PP recovery
The Elite Four exist for the sole purpose of making JRose’s solo runs extra hellish
One more note: going back to handicapped novelty, Lance fits the bill really well. Dragon type is the only type in the entire game you never fought before. You can catch Dragonite line in Safari Zone, but no trainer other than Lance uses them. And they have many resistances with only one weakness. It can become a brick wall to some players, until they either over-level from rematches, or figure out the Dragon weakness - Ice (or rock vs Dragonite). This can make Lance feel really powerful, justifying his position as an Elite Four champion.
I always make this point with people who complain about his team. I ask these people if they really expect me to believe your 7 year old ass just knew back then to bring an ice type on your team just for lance and you also happened to solo his team with it?
Rock is actually good against most of Lance's team, with only Gyarados having an answer in the form of Hydro Pump. Even Electric isn't terrible if you're using a Raichu or caught Zapdos in the Power Plant.
It's also worth noting Hyper Beam's drawback of needing a turn to recharge afterward grants you a free turn to hit back if your Pokemon survives the hit.
@@DetectiveBarricade The problem is that there are not many good rock type moves - only 65 % accurate Rock Throw and a single Rock Slide TM.
One thing I am curious about is why the evolution levels for so many Generation 5 Pokemon are so high. It seems like a strange decision that completely turns off so many people from considering them, and I myself will never use the likes of Deino, Larvesta, or Tynamo because of how deep into the game you have to be in order for them to reach their full potential, with Deino in particular almost never fully evolving before the end credits.
I think that their evolution levels were set that high in order to justify their late-game placements in Black and White. Or vice-versa.
For example, Pawniard evolves at level 52, but isn't available until Route 9 (the route right before the last Gym), where it's found at levels 31-34. Therefore, you have approximately 20 levels with it as a Pawniard before it evolves into Bisharp.
By contrast, Blitzle evolves into Zebtrika at level 27, and is first available on Route 3 at levels 8-11. Again, this gives you about 20 levels before it evolves. I believe the thought process was something along the lines of "keep the amount of time the Pokemon stays in the form the player catches it at consistent."
Unfortunately, they apparently didn't consider how annoying it would be in subsequent games when these Pokemon were made available earlier in the game than they were intended to be in their introductory games. You'd think they would have adjusted the level requirements.
This may be a crazy theory, but i believe it was because they wanted to show level scaling.
Pokemon Black&white was basically Game freak "competitive experiment" (the first game with a lot more focus in competitive play, mostly because the pokemon world tournament added videogame championship in the middle of gen 4) and a lot of the game's design was made with competitive in mind.
for example, a lot of pokemon are effectively retrains of gen 1 pokemon with min maxed stats (this is the first gen to introduce notable power creep between the new and old pokemon), a lot of pokemon got crazy abilities, which you'll likely not get until post game because of how the dream world worked, a lot more moves seem to be focus in PvP double battles
the two addition that stand out the most were team preview (you get to see your opponent team before the battle) and level scaling (if you set the battle to level 50, which is the standard level in official competitive games, pokemon above it get scale down to level 50, instead of being banned like in previous generations), level scaling was technically introduced in HGSS, but gen 5 was the first they designed pokemon with this feature in their games.
Some people assume that Zoroark's ability "illusion" was made to highlight the utility of team preview, since without it the ability would be a little unfair. And if that's the case, there's the chance they made some pokemon evolve a little after level 50 just to highlight the advantages of level scaling.
@@TheEmeraldWeirdoWhat I don’t understand is the need to always have evolved Pokémon.
Why does it need to evolve as soon as possible?
Adding to the other comments, it was also probably to discourage the play style where you over level a single Pokemon and steamroll the game, only keeping others around to max revive the ace. By delaying their strongest forms, players are encouraged to keep a balanced team and think more carefully about types and movepools.
@@pn2294 lets put things into perspective:
The highest level pokemon in gen 5s base story is Ghetis lvl 54 Hydragon. A lot of pokemon introduced in BW do not evolve until after that point. Hell, Hydragon itself evolves at lvl 64, 10 lvls above then what it is in the final fight.
So the answer is simple- most players don’t want to use unevolved pokemon during the endgame fights. Pokemon that are unevolved more often then not have way lower bst then their evolved counterparts. And when your opponents will basically always have a fully evolved team, your at an incredible disadvantage. To the point where it could be argued it’s unfair, especially when some of the fights have these evolved pokemon at lower levels then they should (see above).
Sure theres the evoilite that will ease this a bit, but you’re only gonna get one of those and not all pokemon will really benefit from it ether.
It’s really a simple case of “Why would I use Tynamo when its super weak, and evolves at a stupidly high level, when there’s Joltick in the same area? Joltick will evolve before the flying gym and can continue being a useful team member for the long run instead of waiting in the back with an exp.share till the elite four like Tynamo will be.”
This reminds me of how, in generations 1 and 2, the stat experience system allowed for bosses to have Pokemon who were much higher level than the player's Pokemon. This gave the illusion of difficulty when in reality, the player's Pokemon had better stats. The best example of this is the most famous Pokemon boss of all time, Red from GSC. His Pokemon are in the 70s, while the player's Pokemon are in the mid-40s, without grinding. But between the stat XP system and very exploitable weaknesses, Red is easier to defeat than expected. An analysis of GSC Red would be greatly appreciated.
Very astute!
Also, I love this idea! An analysis on GSC's Red would be really fun. He's held up as being this awesome wall of awesome, despite the fact that he's not nearly as difficult as his vastly inflated Levels would imply that he should be, especially in his debut GSC.
Badge boost is also something that contributes to this.
personally i've developed a headcanon [not purely my own creation] for an in-universe explanation of why the E4 have that odd first-fight weakness followed by being notably stronger, as well as why you don't really usurp the champion [i know the actual reason is so the player can play longer this is in-universe we're talking about]; the idea of the E4 having a sort of lesser championship so prodigious kids that can't deal with the politics can still aim high. after all the gym leaders seem to be local role-models and protectors, often with added roles like scientists and stardom of some kind, so it only makes sense that the E4 and especially the champion have an even higher amount of responsibility [plus manga and anime lore puts them at the forefront when things go down]
it's definitely neat to see that there was an out-universe reason for this stuff
Gen 5 really fixed the E4 level curve. You can battle them in any order, which is a minor improvement, but they're at the same levels. In Gens 1-4, it doesn't make much sense to have a large level distribution across the E4 and champ. Most hardcore Nuzlockers use a level cap of the final E4's ace (as opposed to using rare candies to reach match the level of each E4 member), so their teams are overlevelled for the first few members making these fights are a lot easier.
Why can’t one E4 be stronger than the other?
@@pn2294 Because it's most fair to play when your team is the same level as your opponent's. The only way to do this during Gen 1-4 E4s is to cheat with rare candies. If you match the first E4's ace, you'll be underlevelled for the rest of the E4 and champ. If you match the last E4's ace, the first few members will be easier because of level advantage.
That's only with preconceived knowledge of the game though, on top of ridiculous grinding. a level cap'd nuzlocke isn't generally reflective of what your actual experience will be. The reason there's such a large area of levels in the elite four is to give off a dramatic sense of progression. Of course a mightyena and a salamence aren't going to be on the same level, it's designed for you to go from common mons to the best of the best, to show how far you've come. In gen 5, all of the members being the same difficulty not only means that you can't have that experience, it can actually make the fights progressively easier rather than harder.
It’s not that they can’t but if you want to challenge them in whatever order you want they have to be the same strength
@@flavalicious7327 it’s a game
It doesn’t need to be fair. In fact, the game is better when it’s not fair.
I remember the first elite4 bring a huge challenge to me as a kid, mostly because I was so young
but they weren't so difficult that I couldn't think of things to adjust, so I never felt discouraged when losing
I just thought of something: In your Geeta video, you said that one of the reasons she was easier than most (if not all) other champions was because she was never meant to be the final challenge for the story route she was a part of, let alone the game as a whole. Taking what was said in this video into account, Geeta now appears like an addition to the usual Elite 4 boss rush, basically hitting the first two bullet points of what makes any other Elite 4 a well-designed boss fight (presenting a decent but doable challenge that also rewards EXP and money for what comes later).
I mean, that's part of why her ace Pokemon was Glimmora. She was a quick Rock-type to complete the titans' types alongside the rest of the elite four.
She's just an extra E4 member alongside Arven, Penny and Nemona, with the professor being the Champion.
Well, I can understand some of your points...but in the case of the Elite Four back in Generation 1. It's also worth nothing that there were OTHER issues or even oversights to why the Elite Four teams (and heck, even the champion's tean) back in Red/Blue aren't very good. Like in Agatha and Lance's case, there weren't a lot of ghost and dragon types back in generation one in the Kanto Dex.
But more importantly...a huge part of the issue with Red/Blue is how almost all the Pokemon in many trainer's teams are HEAVILY reliant on moves that they learn in their level up moveset depending on the level you face the said trainer pokemon at, with occasional exceptions for some major trainer fights. (like for gym leaders, the moves that the TMs you get from them contains. Bruno having a Machamp with Fissure or how Lance has an illegal Dragonite with Barrier) It's why Bruno's level 53 and 56 Onixes know Rage (which is incredibly flawed in Generation 1) and Rock Throw, or why his level 58 Machamp knows Focus Energy. (which is bugged in Gen 1)
And...to Gamefreak's credit, they actually realized some of the issues with Red/Blue and they did TRIED to remedy this in Pokemon Yellow by improving the Elite Four's movesets like actually giving Bruno's Onixes GOOD moves (Dig, Rock Slide, and Earthquake) for example or giving Lorelei's Slowbro actual good attacking moves or giving Agatha's first Gengar Mega Drain for potential ground types. And since Yellow, they've for the most part been consistent in at least trying to give the Kanto Elite Four good moves.
...but then they also gave his Hitmonchan a special moveset with Double Team (which admittedly is pretty flavorful).
True...plus they didn't give his Machamp the moves Rock Slide and Earthquake, moves that this pokemon CAN learn in Gen 1. Not to mention Gen 1 Bruno is still held back by his random AI.
Tbf, Double Team on Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee can be something to be wary about...that while the elemental punches are awful for Hitmonchan due to being special moves, they do have the small chance of inflicting status conditions so that's something.
Still though. Overall... Bruno's Yellow Team is a step up from his Red and Bluno team where his movesets are downright inexcusable.
Great video! Just wanted to add a point on the resource management aspect of the elite 4. They use up pp on your moves. Running out of pp on your big moves can make the champion battle more difficult. And unlike pther sections of the game, you cant just run to the pokemon center to get that pp back.
Adding to this, PP-restoring items were rare and finite. And given the limited bag space, combined with not generally being in a position where you _need_ to use them most of the time before the Pokemon League gauntlet, meant either those items were hoarded and never used, placed in the Item Storage PC (which also had a limited capacity), or tossed or sold away.
The "relatively gimped teams for the purpose of using them for grinding EXP and money" checks out, since I remember falling back on that several times when I was younger. I think it plays into how many Gym Leaders as well as E4 members tend to only have one or two powerful and memorable Pokemon even when their teams are larger, where the rest of the team members are like flunkies or adds that help you understand the main boss's strategy but aren't as large of threats on their own, so you're just trying to not exhaust yourself before you reach the important part. I don't remember Winona's team; I remember trying to use a Graveler to deal with her Altaria and getting Dragon Dance Earthquaked for my trouble. I don't remember Sabrina's Gen 1 team; I remember being stifled by her Alakazam spamming Recover because I didn't know how to damage it effectively. Jasmine's two Magnemite are basically just decorations for her monstrous Steelix. There are certainly some Gym Leaders who have stronger overall strategies - Wattson's use of paralysis and confusion over his whole team, BW Elesa's Emolga using Volt Switch into Zebstrika to confound your attacks against changing weaknesses, Pryce's use of Icy Wind on everyone to slow your Pokemon to a crawl, et cetera - but even they use mostly weaker Pokemon with one or two much stronger standouts that are usually fought last.
I also appreciate the nod to the AI oversight used accidentally by TPP Red as a consequence of the E4's subpar movesets. Lance may have mystical dragons at his command, but he's no match for a moth in a 4-wheeler.
Wattson might as well have two aces - Manectric and Magneton. Having to face a very solid Steel type this early into the game is brutal if you don't pick Mudkip.
One other aspect you touched on but didnt discuss fully was secrecy and surprise, especially in grn 1.
Most of the Elite 4 are unknown to the player until they arrive. The player beforehand only new that "bosses" were themed and knew what that theme was beforehand and are able to prepare for them. Less so, or not at all for some of these.
Clues in some gens were their rooms giving clues, like Loreli being water themed (though shes an ice focus). Some, none at all.
In gen 1, you were made well aware of 4 consecutive fights, but then you get slapped on at the end of a 5th fight against your rival. What a surprise and memorable moment! Time to finish all of this!
The thing about Lorelei is that there are only 5 Ice-types in Gen 1.
Elite 4 teams being "intentionally bad" is probably pushing it, because otherwise they wouldn't take as many steps to improve them as much as they do in rematches, remakes and third versions. The Sinnoh Elite 4 in Platinum have teams that are about as good as they feasibly can be within the constraints of being monotype, because they could look at the teams they made in Diamond and Pearl and refine them based on an expanded Pokedex. For a more extreme example, the rematch teams in Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl use outright competitive-level team structures, move choices and items, again with the caveat of being monotyped, because they were implemented by people with more than a decade of experience with the region and that iteration of the Elite 4.
The first Elite 4 were filling in for types that the game hadn't used elsewhere, and that meant some awkward compromises - the most obvious being Agatha representing Ghosts, when there was only one evolutionary line of them, so they went with some 'scary' Poison types rather than giving her five Haunters or Gengars. The movepools are mostly victims of how bafflingly constructed Gen 1 is on a fundamental level, like Hitmonchan having the elemental punches.
With all that said, it's pretty obvious that Elite 4 teams are deliberately compromising in order to preserve the difficulty curve, because they've never had a full roster of six Pokemon - that's a luxury reserved for the rival and/or the final boss(es) of each game, including the Champion right after them. I'd say there's an important distinction between being 'intentionally bad' and 'deliberately held in check', though - and the presentation of the Elite 4 typically does a better job at conveying the latter than, for example, the way Geeta is portrayed in Scarlet/Violet.
If by 'good' you meant 'strong', a lot of fan made games have monotype Gym Leaders and Elite Four members that are significantly stronger than anything in Platinum.
If not, then carry on!
One of the things people dont touch on ofyen is Pokemon is a game where your party membets arw modular and also make up the enemies and bosses you fight.
It has a massive cascading effects on the design and implications from a design standpoint.
Im glad you touch on this!
7:09 When discussing weaknesses of the Elite Four: _"And Lucian is using a Girafarig..."_
I will not tolerate this, because Girafarig is immune to you Ghosting my boy.
I'd argue Hala's team lacking half their moves served another purpose as well: Making it so his team is more likely to use high-damage moves without having to tamper with his AI. His Crabominable and Bewear both have their strongest STAB attacks and one coverage move, as well as high Atk and HP, making them rather focused beefcakes to take down despite their apparent flaws.
For Kanto's Elite 4, something interesting I noticed in this video and in my countless replays of Red, is that Lorelei, contrary to her collegues Agatha and Bruno uses mons that you don't really see at all on your journey, unless you go out of your way. Shellyder/Cloyster are barely found outside Seafoam Islands, same goes for Slowbro (though Slowpoke is a bit more commonly found on trainers). Jynx is completely absent, except for the one you can trade for and Lapras (by far her strongest pokemon in moves and bulk combined) is hyped up as super rare and only available as a present. Her bulky team feels much more put together than Agatha's or Bruno's while being almost entirely rare or new mons, giving me the impression she's designed to build an expectation of difficulty and look imposing, so you go in with a bit of tension. The same could be said of Will in Gen2, who consistently presents a challenge for appropriately leveled teams because his Psychic is only resisted by a handful of mons, while his follow-ups are much weaker. Lance obviously stands out every time with his higher levels and usually new or rare pokemon.
Something that still puzzles me, is the Elite 4 of Pokemon BDSP specifically. Cynthia has a scary reputation, sure, but the entire Elite 4 in BDSP presents an anomaly, as their teams throughout have competitive items and movesets (competitive in the sense that they are mechanically sound) as well as, to my knowledge, actually good stats and EVs. The rest of the game usually ends up being trivial because you get so much exp and because affection effects can get quite busted (a Super Luck Honchcrow can achieve 100% crit rate by default) but then the Elite 4 not only are VERY high level (counteracted by the excess caused by the exp share) but also can actually crush evenly leveled mons by manner of minmaxed stats and moves. They feel extremely out of place in a game that seemingly made sure all the way to give the player an excess of resources and experience.
Also Hala more often then not the is the first E4 member people face and I kinda feel like BDSP E4 is a good example of bad game design
This is why modern bosses having less than 4 moves isn't an issue. Classic bosses had 4 moves, but most were useless, non-damaging moves. Like Sydney's Absol using Snatch.
@@tk24life Roark's Relicanth & Gardenia's Sunflora from BDSP rematch team r ideal examples of this where they only have 1 move (recoiless Head Smash & Solar Beam under the sun set up by the lead respectively) & also a Choice item to maximize their stat. So, sometimes not having all 4 of them will help in compelling AI to select the hardest hitting move possible. But here's the thing, tho why not just fill their mons' moveset w useful coverage or support, like Trick Room Carbink, Bullet Punch Hariyama, Rest Gigalith, Substitute Poison Jab Poliwrath etc.
@@lipika2841 likely to prevent “good” AI from using a super-effective coverage move instead of a neutral STAB move that hits harder
@@jibaontim8975they use competitive vgc style builds how is that bad game design it just raises the difficulty
I know that this will probably get buried in the pile, but I just wanted to say that this was a really great and interesting take on a topic I’d never thought to consider before; thanks for taking the time to put it together! I’m very new to the industry, so I’m trying to soak up as many different perspectives and insights on various game design topics as I can. I really appreciate you putting in the effort and consideration that it took to write this, and for sharing it with us. Thanks! I’m definitely gonna go check out some of your other content now!
Nothing ever gets truly buried.
RUclips studio notifies me whenever there’s a new comment on any video. I enjoy reading through all of them when I’m on a bus or something
I’m glad you enjoy it. Being a game designer is enjoyable, though unfortunately, working in the industry is much less so. I hope you manage to find your way through
Also, the Elite 4 is the fighting part of the Victory Road. While Victory Road is all about the exploration, and potentially finding powerful new additions to your team to fix it before the final challenge, the Elite 4 is all about fighting.
They're basically souped up version of regular Gym Trainers before you can take out the Ultimate Gym Leader.
(It also mean you can't change/improve your team midway through)
The other interesting thing is that gym leaders are often foreshadowed and the Pokemon you need to beat them are often nearby. With the elite 4 you don't know what types they will use and you have to beat all 4 of them.
I never thought about it like that. The idea of the Elite 4 living on hype alone is really interesting. It’s incredibly impressive that the series has maintained the illusion the illusion of the Elite 4’s power for so long.
I revisted Pokemon Blue and beat the elite four literally just now. I was feeling pretty proud of putting together a strong team until I saw this get recommended to me. Heck
Nah you should still feel proud. You still put together a great team.
i would LOVE to see you break down the design philosophy behind volo's fight. he's unexpected, difficult and unfair. it took me, an adult with a maxed stat team, several tries to beat him. admittedly i didn't grow up with pokemon, so while i know a decent amount, i'm not as good as a veteran player. volo seems like an outlier even compared to cynthia since a lot of people (especially kids) don't see him coming and aren't prepared for a six vs. eight fight like that! i know volo is after the credits, but he's required to complete the objective the whole game is centered around of catching all pokemon!
They probably expected players to use Dialga/Palkia or any of the other legendaries you had to catch before the fight, since they make the fight much more easy
@@rafaelzamudio354 LOL fair, though i did try throwing legendaries at him w/o much luck
@@tinycatfriend Cresselia is actually great in the fight, since her bulk and psyquic and fairy attacks are perfect for the battle. Also, there is an alpha Garchomp in the snowlands that compleatly trivialises the battle
I managed to get him first try because I had two tanks to absorb hits while I Max Revived the rest of my team. A lot of which I'm pretty sure he sold me.
But if I hadn't brought Snorlax and if I hadn't randomly caught a shiny Hippowdon, I'm sure this would be a much different story.
Awkward, I got him first try and don't train stats or whatever
Hey, I asked for this topic! I'm really excited to watch this one 😅
Edit: So watching the video, this explains a lot! Namely, I've never really thought of the "tool to farm EXP for the champion fight" angle. That makes a lot of sense and suddenly I understand why so many questionable Pokemon/moves are used to make up these fights. Something I'm still curious about is, why do they still center their teams around one specific type at this point in the game? Is it simply because it's a boss rush, and therefore players need to accommodate for multiple types anyways? I always found it odd that the only trainer allowed to use multiple types is the champion.
Anyways, loved the video! I definitely feel that you make the most interesting and best Pokemon content on the site as of late. I'd love to see you tackle some other games & genres as well!
Regarding Champions, a lot of Champions are also Type-themed. (Even if a number of those tended to have exceptions due to not really having enough of a given Type to go around in that given game's Pokedex, ala Lance being more "Flying themed" than Dragon, or Steel-preferenced Steven having more of an excavation/archeological bent due to a lack of Steel Pokémon in Hoenn's Pokedex.
The reasoning behind the elite four's design is really fascinating... honestly, even though you're a newer youtube channel, I look forward to every video you put out, even compared to a lot of the other channels I'm subscribed to.
A lot of these design ideas are also applicable to other games, so it's not just useful specifically to pokemon. Any game designer could benefit from this.
Game Design principles in general can apply to many different games. Once you see the trick exposed in one game, you can begin to see how other games employ that same trick.
It's what makes game design a double edged sword to study. You learn a lot about the technical aspects and can critically look at games differently... but at the same time you also lose a lot of the fun and excitement from being caught off-guard.
It's like a magician watching another magician's performance. A lot of the fun is gone once you understand what goes on underneath the curtain, but you gain the ability to appreciate things from a technical perspective instead.
Pokemon's just an excellent example subject because its the world's most popular media IP. Everybody has played Pokemon before, meaning that it is very easy to explain things and a viewer can understand it more easily. If I were to use... say... Ace Attorney as an example, that might fly over people's heads a bit.
Really enjoy your channel, it brings a different perspective to the games I've loved for ages. I remember being a kid and having so much trouble with the elite four but at the same time thinking they are so cool.
In Generation 1 there were very few adults playing the game. Compared with today there are perhaps just as many adults as children that play each version and because of that Pokemon are in a tough spot in their game design. The easiest fix would be to implement a difficulty mode for the player to choose at the start. Without that the designers have to design a game that kids can play (and enjoy enough to become lifelong fans like the rest of us) but still know that millions of adults will be playing the game.
Honestly, with the "Unova" Elite Four in the Pokemon SV DLC, they are in the right direction. It's more challenging with the double set, however it makes it more fun and brings way more hype for the champion fight. If Gamefreak ever decides to upgrade the Elite Four in the future, Double battle, triple battle, rotation battle, etc. All of them could be extremely unique and fun in the Elite Four
I think a lot of casual opinion about game design is that difficult = good and easy = bad. I'd be curious to know how you feel about BDSP's game balance as I think the jump to the Elite 4 was pretty notorious in that game, since it seems as though the rest of it did not balance around the exp share.
Pokémon diamond and pearl is known for having an over leveled elite four which makes it harder to beat. Exp share might remedy that idk
I think hyping up trainers and not making them actually hard is contradictory. Most people remember the Unova Elite 4 because they live up to their name, even with 4 Pokemon. Because they're also type specialists, you can still wipe the floor with 1 or 2 Pokemon and the right move. Plus, since it's an RPG, you're probably stuffed with potions. Pokemon's battle system makes it easy to abuse.
For me, the idea of a boss rush should be reserved for optionnal post-game. And you should not be grinding against the final boss. Ideally, a well crafted adventure requires little grinding at the end. The final boss is the ultimate challenge, not a wall you bang your head against. And since you can brute force your way through, why not make the bosses hard ?
I think you give them to much credit, especially for the first gen.
I'm really enjoying these well done videos, keep up the good work!
when you said that people were averse to final bosses being easy, i was reminded of super metroid, where the final boss has three phases, the first one is literally supposed to be easy, the second phase has attacks that, while dealing a lot of damage, can be dodged without even using the d-pad (no seriously, you just stand in place jumping over the projectiles), that second phase is also a damage sponge that will drain you out of all of your ammo, then you have a cutscene where the boss uses a hyper duper mega attack that beats you, only for a friendly 'face' to appear, heal you back to full, and then give to you that same hyper beam for you to use against the boss, after all that then we get the third phase, which... is a complete curbstomp... now lets compare that to the boss of the previous area, ridley, in that fight you have, fire balls everywhere, a dragon trying to grab you with its talons, and also trying to knock you into the lava using its tail and... oh yeah, i forgot to tell that the arena is a small platform surrounded by lava on all sides... needless to say, i died to mother brain 2 times, i died to ridley more times than i can count.
if you are woundering, the pokemon equivalent of this thing is, imagine you are playing pokemon crystal, ridley would be the equivalent of the entire elite four AND champion combined, and mother brain would be misty, however, also imagine that while you are playing crystal that way, your only mon is an overleved raticate...
A delightful video as usual. I enjoyed the All Terrain Venomoth cameo haha
Videos like this really allow me to see a new insight as to why certain things in video games are the way they are. Boss rushes are one of my favorite things in video games because they feel like an encore, a final test of strength to prove that you know the game's mechanics enough to prevail. They aren't super difficult (most of the time anyways), but are still fun and allow you to prove that you know what you're doing. This is why I love the Elite Four as a concept. They aren't hard, but are designed for intimidation, like the video mentioned. They seem hard, but if you don't let fear stop you and you push through the challenge, then you'll succeed as if it were easy. It's also why I love boss rushes in Mega Man games, the bosses you face the first time around seem really hard, but once you fight them again you'll most likely know how to defeat them.
Of course this is just my two cents, watching this video in full really made me think about the boss rush concept as a whole and why some Elite Fours are harder than others. Great vid. ❤
Oh hey, nice Terra profile pic. Best Teen Titans girl
Boss rushes toe a fine line between fun and frustrating, because they take up a lot of time and energy investment. If the player loses and resets it can feel really miserable if that happened due to a perceived cheap shot by the game.
Theres only one mistake, althrough you are correct about the designers purposely dumb down some elite 4 members pokemon and movesets, the reason of gen 1 be so weak is two factors: first is because they thematicaly use the most rare types of kanto, so having not much pokemon avaiable they mixed them up by giving some other types or giving non evolved mons to fill at least 3 mons of their speciality. Second is the fact that it was the begining of pokemon franchise, developers were yet to set the bar of "dificult" or "strong" trainers, remember that today is easy to distinguish what is a strong moveset and what is not, but the first time youd develop a game complex and inovative as pokemon u sometimes miss a lot of what is truly strong. Their movepools in code are just automaticaly set based on their lv up movepool, having only one special move chosen by developers (hence barrier dragonite) they just accepted that a high lv up movepool would be strong, and their had still not much idea that so many lv up movepools would still be useless
My comment was in your video!!!!! Yay!!!!!!!!!!!
And to be fair towards the idea of fighting 4 sub bosses before the final boss, the idea of fighting something before the boss isn't that new...
And it tested your skills of buying items and preparing that you learned earlier in the games.... you were even warned.....
Also, I never noticed, but you are right... one of the main reasons the Elite 4 were so hard was because they were a boss rush... and your stronger moves had less PP...
Oh, and let's not forget we were kids... many of us mostly relied on our starter Pokemon.... so the other Pokemon were random Pokemon we caught and didn't properly train...
And as kids, our perceptive kept us from noticing that each individual elite 4 was easy... and our sub-optimal team design probably didn't help...
In fact, while I noticed that the Elite 4 were easier, I chocked it up to being an adult that is way better at playing...
And as a child, we didn't always know how strong/weak a move was... cause in the anime, we constantly saw the Pokemon use weaker moves....
I guess the main reason we don't give Geeta a pass is because usually, all of the other Champions actually did feel strong and balanced...
The 4 elite 4 members being tough as a child along with the challenge of facing all 4 of them in a row and THEN dealing with a difficult Champion boss gave the League challenge a much greater difficulty...
If we felt that difficulty after Geeta, then we wouldn't have had such issues...
And the thing is, what you point out also makes the Nemona argument kinda moot... cause you are expected to heal at the Pokemon Center after Nemona... so the league tiring you out doesn't work....
"If the boss rush contains a new, never-before-seen boss, then this boss will typically be designed to be a bit easier"
HAL labs: *laughs in Soul Melter EX*
Great video Golden Owl! Your humorous editing and the cozy fireplace at the end of the videos has already given your channel a lovable and endearing culture to me that keeps me coming back for more.
Maybe your next video could be on Starmie as you mentioned wanting to do one on it?
Best wishes for the future, from a fan of game design and creative thinking (and Ghost Trick).
The elite four was so scary to me as a kid that I never finished a pokemon game. When I finally tried it in Sun and Moon I was in college and was surprised that it was so much easier than I expected. And it's not even that I've become more determined or anything, because I still haven't gone back to the Volo boss fight in Legends Arceus after getting my ass kicked 5 times. I'm a classic 'if it's too hard I'll just go do something else' player archetype and it turns out that the elite four is designed just so people like me can still finish the games and feel satisfied with the experience. Who knew!
Ghost Trick reference and music ?? I love it ^^
I would actually contest the idea that Hala's missing moves is a handicap for his team. Sure, a competent player could fill in those slots with other good moves and make effective use of them, but we've just finished looking at how many other Pokemon are saddled with bad moves that actively weigh them down, partially because Sand Attack is an objectively bad move and partially because the AI doesn't know how to use Swords Dance properly even when it has it.
Contrast a Pokemon with two strong STAB moves: it's not gonna waste its turns, no matter what. "Just hit the enemy with your strongest attacks" is the ideal strategy for much of the game for a good reason, after all. Hala's team is consistent and reliable, even with Pokemon's AI behind it. The fact that his Crabominable only knows Ice Hammer and Close Combat means I'm going to get hit with one of those each turn, no exceptions, and that's if anything more scary than if it had more options.
"If the boss rush contains a new never before seen boss, this boss will typically be easier to accomodate players"
Hollow Knight meanwhile...
This being the first video of yours I watched, I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the video and immediately went to watch your other videos. And I had a suspicion, but I was even prouder when I realised it was made by a fellow Singaporean. Keep up the good work and I look forward to your future work!🎉🎉
You should talk about the rival in gen 1. Which is utterly genius. He both shows you how and how not to play the game. He uses balance, yet he evolves all his stone evolution Pokemon before they can learn any moves.
I think the reason why Geeta is the only Champion that's so disliked is because it's so blatantly obvious that what she's doing is bad. You'll see that people's most cited reasons for why Geeta is weak would be her placing Glimmora last and Kingambit in the middle. These are incredibly obvious poor decisions, and are public information, unlike stuff like EVs/IVs and movesets. I'd bet that if you lower the level of the champion's mons by, like, 10 levels, but compensate with EVs and IVs, people will still think it's easier purely because they see the lower levels.
I feel that the e4 are fine being not as difficult as they could be, but the champions should be hard because the main issue is the fact healing is so easy to access it isnt actually difficult unless you intentionally handicap yourself
Nice analysis. This got me thinking of some more good design choices Gamefreak made with the gen 1 Elite Four.
- They all have at least one mon that you don't see anywhere else in the game, giving them each a signature weapon if you will.
- Lance is the only trainer in the entire game that uses dragons. They probably put the whole type in just so he could have something truly unique to challenge the player with. Dragons also resist fire, water and grass, the three starter types.
- Your rival has a diverse team, no matter what you use there will be something that can cause you trouble.
The weird movepools have more to do with the algorithm they used to build trainer teams. Every trainer pokemon you fight knows the last 4 moves in its level up movepool. Starting with yellow they took a more hands on approach and made sure they can put up more of a fight.
The Elite Four is a wall that's meant to be climbed. You go in unprepared; you'll fall off it a few times, but in the end that wall will get climbed. Part of the challenge is also the fact that for a long while the team that you brought in with you was all you could use. I can't remember if you could swap your team between matches in the newest games, want to say they mentioned in-game disabling doing that in Sword and Shield, but I don't remember for Scarlet and Violet, but going into the Elite Four plus Champion with the "wrong team" would also be part of the difficulty.
Bruno having two Onix in Gen 1 is us actually quite brilliant!
Onix was such a threat early on, and now you can beat two of them without any difficulties. What better way of showing you how far you'll come?
RB Elite Four having trash movesets is more of hardware/software limitations I think. VERY few Trainers have special moves in first Generation. In Red/Blue if I remember right, it's only Gym Leaders and Champion having a TM on their ace. Everyone else just uses the default level-up moves, which leads to subpar movesets (and remember, level-up movesets in G1 are horrible and balanced around using TMs). It leads to hilarious shit with the stone evos, like Blue's Exeggutor, which specifically learn pretty much no moves naturally after evolving.
This was fixed a bit in Yellow and was more thoroughly rectified in Gold and Silver, where even a random Trainer might be carrying a TM move on their Pokemon.
Alola's Elite Four not having full movesets is as far as I understand, designed specifically so the AI doesn't waste time picking subpar moves. I guess this one is more of bandaid solution for subpar AI?
Regarding Generation 1...this, all this I agree and have pointed out in my comment. Because of how awful Gen 1 trainer movesets typically were back in Red/Blue, they did kinda realize this and tried to remedy this problem in Yellow by giving a lot of the major trainers a better moveset than they did in Red/Blue.
I wish we could see a sequel to the orre region where they have developped their own Elite Four in the form of a no-healing between battles colosseum. Or maybe 5 additionnal levels to Mt.Battle with no healing?
Love the perspectives you bring to these games!
This gave me such fond memories of playing against the Elite Four in Silver and Red (my first two games) and the endless rematching because I was a kid who showed up with a non-EV trained team of Pokemon with no utility moves. And of post-game Silver where you'd use the Elite Four to grind all your other Pokemon up to evolving to fill your Pokedex.
One factor is the music. I don't think the Elite Four/Indigo plateau music has ever not been some of the most epic sounding music in the game - it really makes you feel like you are n the presence of greatness and taking on the best of the best.
I think the elite four teams are designed as narrative experiences as well. If their teams were filled with intimidating pokemon every battle will feel over the top, I think the filler pokemons in their teams are designed as a break from the overall battle, you know, to lower down the tension.
Love your videos!!
Almost 30 years later, and I still clearly remember the first time I beat the Elite Four on Blue version....... And then Butthead comes out and challenges you.
Not ready for that at all. He destroyed me the first time.
That banter you made at the end of Geeta. Funnily enough, you can rematch Geeta during the Ace Academy Tournament but her Team was the same one. This would've been the perfect opportunity for the devs to do that. Oh well, here's hoping the 2nd half of the DLC will do that.
I have a couple things to say to this one.
One, did you always have an echo, or is that just my phone or something?
Two... I don't know if they designed the Gen 1 Elite Four's movesets at all? If I remember right, they basically just have the most recent Level Up Moves, and all the level up learnsets are mostly garbage.
Three. Part of the resource management challenge is coming prepared for any Pokemon, right? You have 6 and you need enough variety for every single boss.
I did feel that the audio editing felt really off for this for some reason. Damn, I never realized that was an echo. Thank you for notifying me. I'll need to figure out a solution to that for next time...
Also, yes, but actually no. Almost every one of the Elite Four's Pokemon are using their stock Level-Up Moveset. But their strongest Pokemon are all equipped with customized movesets, with moves obtained from TMs (Lapras's Blizzard, Gengar's Toxic, Machamp's Fissure) or otherwise impossible to learn (Dragonite's Barrier). There's also a few minor anomalies (e.g Golbat has Supersonic despite it's recent level-up move being Bite)
This reinforces the point I raised above. Only 1 Pokemon on each E4 member is intended to be a meaningful threat, so they get special attention and customized movesets. The others are all more or less filler, so they just get basic movesets.
Interesting topic and great analysis. I had written off the elite four as an adult to be more of a test of endurance than five individual fights. Was fascinated to hear your thoughts.
Normally, pinning the blame on nostalgia doesn't sit well with me, but I sometimes think it might've contributed to older players' memories of earlier Elite Fours, and the earlier games in general. What I've noticed many Pokémon players forget is that we all sucked back when we first got into the series, and Pokémon was always first and foremost aimed at beginners. As we got more experienced, we outgrew bad habits that the games expect us to have, and have access to information that the games don't expect us to know.
to wit -- I was doing the Gym Leader rematch in Scarlet and Violet, and just with the knowledge of 1) All Gym Leaders are mono-type and 2) Their anchor mon is a off-type that Terastalizes into the theme type, I was able to build a teams that only suffered one mon lost twice (once was a deliberate sac to get something in clean, the other was me forgetting Crabomidable has Ice Hammer and I had a Grass type in)
That was all on raw knowledge of type matchups and the tendencies I've noticed in team construction over 25+ years.
There is precious little the AI can do to someone with game knowledge, unless you let the AI fully open itself up in team construction and routines (see the many Battle Facilities).
0:17 Starting with the best Elite 4 music I see.
Something I actually find interesting about the Elite Four in Gen I is that there's no indication whatsoever ingame that you have to fight the "Champion" after the Elite Four. The only times ingame that the Champion is mentioned is in relation to *you* becoming the champion if you defeat the Elite Four, but never that you actually need to beat an already existing Champion after beating the Elite Four.
“Still places emphasis on an aspect of resource management”
Good sir. I have played through Scarlet/Violet close to ten times at this point. I can very firmly say that you can get through the game comfortably without buying a single item. You find max elixirs all over the ground, not to mention the absolutely absurd amount of regular healing items. You don’t even have to be careful. Just pick up items and you’ll never even need to think about resources.
I think that could be a side effect of the open worlds needing pieces of candy to make traversing consistently engaging.
I remember losing to Drasna in X, losing to Korrina 3 times before evolving my Charmeleon into Charizard and losing to Shauntal 3 times at a minimum
Just because the battles aren’t as hard as they can be doesn’t mean someone (especially a beginner) can’t lose to them
As a beginner, I had no sense of balance with a team of almost all fire type pokemon, and as a result lost multiple times to Siebold
Another interesting aspect of Lance that you didn’t mention is that not only does he use pokemon you have likely never seen before so you don’t know how to deal with it but also dragon as a type resists your starter pokemon’s strongest stab moves because dragon resists Water, Fire, Electric, and grass so you can’t just brute force it with hydro pump or fire blast. And the only place to get ice types is an optional dungeon in the seafoam islands. Which makes Lance a very intimidating wall of a boss especially after having to go through the gauntlet of the rest of the E4 where your resources are drained and your pokemon are weakened.
It's interesting that a lot of people think the final boss is supposed to be the hardest in the game when in my experience, the battle right before the final boss tends to be super difficult and the final boss somewhat easier. The clearest example to me is the original Kingdom Hearts. I remember as a kid struggling over and over against Xehanort + his Heartless monster shield thing whereas I breezed through the final boss version of Xehanort fairly easily. IIRC in the SNES version of Aladdin, Jafar the human is much harder to beat than snake Jafar.
Best game ever made, Final Fantasy 6, is similar. The leadup to the final boss is a grueling tower that tests every party member to the core.
The actual final boss well...the aesthetics are on point, the music is one of the best pieces ever put on a microchip, you genuinely want to beat this boss's smug face in so it's got the emotional component even...but his hit points are absolutely inexcusable. There's one infamous setup that can defeat him in ONE TURN.
Thanks, it makes my day better to see you post
That's... your first video I can completely agree with. I'm just glad that I didn't make it to the hall of shame of mentioned comments ;)
Don't worry. I've nothing against disagreements and different opinions. Working in a Design-related field means you tend to run into those often and need to learn how to deal with it.
I only pluck out comments to serve a purpose in the video. In this case, to highlight the sheer contradiction between people's expectations of a final challenge's difficulty, their memory of such, and the actual reality of said "difficult challenge" being actually easy.
I actually encourage people like you to hold different perspectives and opinions on things. No one person can know everything and consider every angle. Alternate viewpoints is very useful for pointing out blind spots in logic.
I just wanna say before I even begin the video, I love this subject so much and the hype I had when I saw the title should not be understated.
Happy to know I was able to inspire the feeling of hype in someone. Hoped you enjoyed the show.
I've never seen the Lapras Artwork with the teeth, it makes me appreciate it more as a mighty sea creature instead of an inflatable pool toy like its depicted in newer artworks.
So that is why the Blueberry League Elite Four are so muchh stronger than any other league? Because unlike them, you aren't forced to challenge the BB elite 4 in a row and instead have to fulfil side quest to get to them?
Speaking of which can we get a whole video on Blueberry Academy and why it is so challenging and different from any other league? The champion Kieran even uses a competitively viable team, he too deserves a video!
I was told one time their choices were because they are more theme based than specifically type based. Gen 1 reflects this with the manga as reference. Bruno is all about “extreme training conditions” and Onix is demonstrated as that in the manga. So Lance has dragon looking mons as opposed to type specific. Karen (Gen 2) has dark colored/night time inspired mons, not specifically Dark type
For me this explains Gen 4 a bit more too. As their mons may have been or somehow relate to that type in some way (Drapion was a bug before evo, and still looks like a giant scorpion; Drifblim as a hot air balloon uses fire to heat the air….idk about Lopunny it’s not a perfect theory)
Makes my day good seeing this RUclips video for sure
I always thought about that when comes to Kanto, because Every elite 4 member has a major weakness, for exemple, lorelei is a ice type but almost every pokemon is Water type too, Bruno has 2 onix, Agatha is ghost but every pokemon has poison type, and Classic play to take down lance is bring ice beam. Like, with a eletric, psyquic and water pokemon you can sweep the entire elite 4 with no stress
Another great video, giving me some stuff to think about I never considered.
Do a video on BDSP's elite four. they seem like a complete 180 from everyrhing you described.
I remember playing Pokémon red. I had barely beat Lance.. thought I won, so didn’t heal my team… only to walk in the next room. By the time you walk a certain distance, the game moves the player towards Blue/ starts the dialogue and battle on its own. Not like the other Elite 4 members where you initiate the fight by speaking to them. Went into the Champion battle totally unprepared with a team of fainted and half-fainted Pokémon. Got destroyed lol
The unova elite four are hard bosses
I was slightly underleveled, but that didn't stop me from winning by stall tactics (heal stalling is not an effective strategy i think)
they have only four pokemon each, but they use them with tactics that take expertise to counter and stump noobs like younger me with ease
But the goal seems to be to make players feel like they've become strong after training hard
For me this epiphany happened when I did a "scouting run" of the elite four in gen 3 remakes I think.
I cleaned up the whole elite 4 without healing items while underleveled.
My Skarmory solo beat Stephen's team despite being 10 levels lower than his own Skarmory.
I was confused...
While I agree that the elite 4 could have been tuned for a better experience, but I always enjoyed fighting them. To me, it wasn't a boss rush, but rather all of them together was the boss. It felt like a conglomeration of testing what you've learned throughout the game, from having a balanced team to having items to use and knowing when to use them.
I have a Video Idea for you. What are the items from Gen 1 supposed to be, in relation to a classic RPG? I never understood what an Elixir was as a kid, or why it was in a test tube
The first that comes to mind is the PokeBall you find in the grass, it esencially acts as your standard chest from an RPG. It also explains Voltorb and Electrode design, since they are the equivalent of mimics from classic RPGs
Another thing: If they really wanted the E4 to be hard, they would not have given them monotype teams. What they're actually doing is testing your teambuilding skills. Is your team balanced enough to take on four different type specialists? Ideally, each member of your team has something to contribute to at least one of those fights.
Paldea doesn't really test your teambuilding skills at all. You can access the box between fights, and 3/4 of the E4 are weak to Ice moves. Bit of an oversight, I think
one thing i need to say is that the first game was created a long time ago, and at that time they did not have access to the mountain of knowledge that we have today; that by itself makes the game harder, especially if you add the fact that a lot of kids will be playing this too. Forcing the player to complete 5 fights in a row is a lot by itself, naturally they felt the need to nerf them a bit and thats a perfectly fine decision
With this in mind, lets talk about the battle facilities such as battle tower and battle frontier.
In gen1 the movements were just the last 4 moves learned by level up for all trainers including the elite four
I wasn't expecting a JoJo reference but then I saw your profile picture and now I'm just suprised I haven't seen one in an earlier video.
I remember the earlier gens having a money penalty for losing. I wonder if that had something to do with the earlier elite 4 being seen as more difficult since if you were unable to defeat the first member at least, you would actually be put in a worse position than before. Compared to later gens that removed this (for the elite four at least) where all you needed to do was at least beat one pokemon to make some progress.
In my PokeMon game runs, I constantly level grind my entire team, and try to build balanced move-sets with the Elite 4 + Champion in mind. After a test run or two, you have everything worked out, and it's mostly one-attack Knock-Outs. Even Whitney, and her evil Miltank. 😅 There's almost always a Type advantage to exploit
The way I’ve always seen it the E4 are like if you can get through these guys I can give you a fight … just like gyms you beat a handful of trainers to fight the “boss”
15:38 "Given enough attempts, every player can hypothetically level up to eventually defeat the Elite 4 and complete the game"
You can take the hypothetically out of that sentence, cause I purposefully did it myself once. I wanted to see how many attempts it would take to train a full team of 6 to the point that it could defeat the League by just using exp found *in* the League itself (and with no items allowed in between fights). I did it in FireRed and started with a balanced team at a level good enough to barely defeat the very first Pokémon in Lorelei's team. Needless to say, I was destroyed times and times again, but with each attempt the Pokémon got just a little bit stronger, until I was able to do a full run and beat the Champion. I couldn't tell you how many attempts it took me because I lost count along the way, but it was excruciatingly long and painful. But in the end it was worth it to literally see the team grow in front of your eyes and eventually steamroll on challenges that at the start seemed unbeatable. I wouldn't do it again, though. Or at least not in this lifetime 😂
I like how unique the y are nothing like it exists in any other franchise
Part of what makes pokemon special
Me: Buff Agatha isn't real, she can't hurt you.
Buff Agatha: 0:11
Didn't even mention the BDSP E4, where Gamefreak gave their story teams EV's and competitive move sets (at least one of which is banned by Smogon).
At least in my experience, I found one place where that did not go to plan: Unova. You can get to the Elite four waaay to easy, and then having to go back and level up your mons or rerunning the battles multiple times is a pain in the benind
I know QA wasn't really a thing back then and they probably had a time crunch, but as an adult, did anybody else ever find it weird that they gave the original Elite Four status boosting moves but somehow it never occurred to them that their "smart AI" would only use that move even though it didn't deal damage? Well, it makes more sense when you view it as, "Yeah, it's working as intended." It lends credence to them supposed to be beaten. Or it actually is a bug because Gen 1.
I never actually thought about the Elite 4 not being meant to be difficult.
I think as time went on, E4 teams hid their easier difficulty a lot better.
It’s more emersive to see a Dhelmise using Shadow Ball over Slowbro using Water Gun.
These games are not supposed to be difficult. They're supposed to be beatable by literal elementary schoolers using whatever Pokémon they think looks cool.
If the Elite Four were designed the way many players demand, they would only be beatable by a very restrictive number of possible teams. Why would you design a game with hundreds of monsters when only a handful of them end up viable?
If you want to play hardcore Pokémon, either use your own house rules or get into PvP.
Thats why SMT exists
[Assuming you mean Shin Megami Tensei] Yes, thank you.
I do admit that I understand the game balance reason, but one of my biggest issues is how trainers consistently lack teams of 6 after the third gym in every game.
Like I know that some trainers might focus on one or two, but you'd figure there'd be at least more people who see themselves surrounded by Pokemon and grabbing six Rattata, Schroodle, or even Venonat to reflect their hobbies, if not teams of different Pokemon.
Theres one crucial thing you didnt mention, the game allows you to save between fights, meaning that if a player wants to, they can just keep trying the one member that may be giving them trouble or keep a checkpoint after the kne that took a while to beat. when I realised I didnt need to keep wiping over and over to agatha's hippowdon suddenly 6 year old ne could beat the game
Well, my first game was Black 1, so to me they always was a nightmare,(kinda), just hanging in a slip and KOing me back with a super effective coverage. And their rematch teams are other level.
16:24 they gave me some occasional struggle