The sound of "JUST INTONATION"
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 24 апр 2017
- Nearly all modern music is composed and performed in 12-TET, and music theory is almost presented that way as well. Just intonation, when mentioned at all, is often treated as a historical footnote. This isn't to say that all modern music rigidly conforms to equal temperament; instruments with contiuous pitch (voice, violin, trombone, fretless bass, etc..) can accomodate JI just fine, and performers may gravitate towards just tunings instinctively without even being aware that they're doing it.
Хобби
This is a simple yet incredible innovation. Ruins listening to unjust guitar work. It's like going to heaven and coming back and nothing quite compares.
Ash Mckinlay exactly!!!!
Sadly, JI is so frustratingly impractical for the vast majority of our "western" music (unless you don't care about "wolf intervals").
Would you mind sharing the fret pattern for the just intonation? (Distances between frets for a given neck length) Thank you!
@@cfmike the fret pattern is just put a fret under the natural harmonics you can find going up and down the string. It could subtly change for any different guitar based on overall string length and how and where the fretboard sits underneath it. A tuning this fine has to be personalised for each guitar.
Hasn't any of the famous youtube musicians come here yet in their desperate attempt to disapprove just intonation and prove crappy equal temperament is more natural?
I've never heard anything this perfect.. It just sounded right..
That is the best sounding intonation on a CBG I've heard yet. Love it with the reverb
For an extra challenge, it would be cool if he could build a box (ie the resonance chamber) to align the box's resonance frequency with the pitch he's using for E. Should add even more natural thickness to the reverb and tone of the guitar as it should in theory boost the dynamic ranges of the harmonic series
My ears are finally sated.
right?
The sound is perfect!
Cool. I believe most people have their own personal temperaments that they tune to - somewhere between 12TET and Just intonation. They want to play in 12TET but their ears take them closer to just. This is behind the reason why choirs drift (usually flat) and people tune their guitars by ear on one chord just to find that a different chord sounds out of tune.
Dude you are EXACTLY RIGHT!!!!
@Tobias Reiner A normal guitar is "tuned" when everything is about equally acceptably out of tune.🙄 There's a procedure where you tune the E strings to each other first then the D string at the 2nd fret to E strings, fretted D on 2nd and 3rd strings to the open D string. Lastly tune 5th string to 2nd fret A on the already tuned G string. Nothing sounds exactly right but nothing should sound horrendous and saves going round in circles forever tweeking.
I played 12 string guitar for decades, and often tuned the courses octave + or -, so the tones would sympathize differently across the courses. People often told me my guitar sounded so much 'fatter' than other 12 strings, well, there is that slight distance giving all 12 strings and independent voice, if even by the slightest hair..
@@guitartommo2794 Yes, over time we have gotten used to hearing things "out of tune" - by which time, to us, in not out of tune - it's just the way it is.
Middle eastern instruments have movable frets for this very reason. Also the 430 Hz vs. 432 Hz debacle
So nice and harmonic,- one gets all soft inside. ;-)
Thank you for sharing this.
This is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard.
That's one beautiful sounding instrument
Fantastic, this sounds divine and I’m now going to mark up the neck on my fretless CBG this way and see how that works out... thanks so much for sharing your talent and creativity
wow, I need to look in to this, great video!
Never mind Just Intonation, That is Just beautiful. Guess who is going to be giving this a try on his next CB Guitar. Awesome as always Del. keep it going.
In your opinion and objectively so. Gorgeous harmonics! Just cool.
This sounds completely incredible!
Perfect, really enjoy that sound brother.
This makes me wish that everything was in just intonation. But I do love the piano sound...
I'm curious to see how far you could push it. Septimal thirds and sevenths would sound pretty lush on a cigar box guitar I'd imagine, considering the septimal third is essentially a "bluer" version of the minor third. The microtonal rabbit hole is a fun one!
WOW nice sound!!!
Great guitar!! Buddy i love it! You should produce and sell them i would instantly get one!
that was just awesome!
Are you trying to confuse me? 🎶 Please, don't mess, with my simple mind, woman. 🎶
That was awesome!
game changing video. thank you?
@PuckettCigarBoxGuitar
You should consider making a CBG with movable frets!
An absolute virtuoso; you are an ambassador for a transcendent musicality that just makes every little bit of my soul want to sing.
Chris P thanks for the kind words of encouragement 😎
great sound!
It sounds amazing,more earthly sounding.
Love it man!
Dope man, very musical. impressed you could have that much expressiveness with root 5th octave. maybe that's because I'm a dumb drummer.
Beyond love it
Very nice!
Nice work man
Wow....just wow.
That sounds so good! I’ll take one in every key please!
I've recently discovered that when playing and normal six string in an open tuning, it usually sounds better if I calculate the just intonation frequencies for the open strings. When I fret from those strings obviously those intervals aren't in just intonation, but usually with open tunings you're utilizing the tuning more than your hand
Yup yup you’re exactly right!!!!!
This is REALLY cool
heheheee you get it !!!!
AWSOME
awesome!
And this is infinite so you could add more notes if you wanted to 😃 and thay would be just as in tune as what you have now❤
Might explain why I love to write riffs that utilize B and E strings as open/drone notes (when in the key of E). Ear is just naturally attracted to a greater purity of sound, as opposed to the compromise of non-E key chords) as you have magnificently demonstrated here!
Question: Why might some say that guitars naturally sound better when tuned to E flat?
Hey, I'm just going to say that the percentages thing it's not your fault but RUclips's, it has kind of weird algorithms that do strange things. You're doing so well man. Congratulations for the baby btw! :-)
this is amazing man... put some up for sale if you end up having a collection. anyways, inspiring for me. i'm a producer who's looking into just intonation, maybe one day when i establish my name i'll try to get one off your hands :p
Just wanted to say it sounds fantastic.
you have a good ear 😎👍🏽
@@PuckettCigarBoxGuitar I see others have also commented with just how incredible it sounds. That instrument could be used for benchmarking purposes.
@PuckettCigarBoxGuitar
Could you do this but add in a few extra frets so it would have the full 19-24 frets that a regular guitar has?
beautiful
Thank you! Cheers!
@@PuckettCigarBoxGuitar did you add more frets to it? would be interesting to see what it sounds like with more intervals!
is the b string two cents shaper then? great video, hmm// i will tryusing harmonics as a guide to play pure intonation on my lap guitar! why didn't i think of the connection to the harmonics, thanks for this! i was hearing it by ear and using a frequency chart before but you soon hear it don't you.
Incredible! I'm was floored the first time I tuned my homemade lyre by hear. Just intonation is just so much more in tune (he he) with emotions. By the way what is your amp and pickup? They sound amazing too!
Roland Micro Cube.. thanks 😎
God fucking damn that sounds good. Sounds right
The 12 bar blues you played sounded divine! Really cool to hear this intonation.
Btw, that's a Davidson County license plate above your work bench. Did you live in Nashville at one point?
how would I build a neck like that? Thanks great job.
hi man, cool vid, just wondering, since you're using different string thicknesses, doesn't the frets on each string have to be spaces out differently like on fan fretted guitars for true just intonation. It seems like you're following the principal of just intonation mathematically but not practically, or am I wrong?
Sounds great! I'm wondering how your middle string, the B, fits in to the layout of the fretboard if the frets are arranged for pure JI intervals in E...
In other words, with a pure E tuning, the distance from E to F# would be a little different than the distance from B to C#, no? Coupled with the fact that the fifth (B) would be a couple cents sharper than ET to begin with, that would put your C# note on the B string substantially sharper than a 'beatless' pure 6th... Know what I mean? But the shuffle you played in the video had that C# note in it on the B string and it sounds great...
I saw your other video explaining the symmetry of the intervals going in from the octave points, which I'd never noticed before. Maybe that factors in somehow to this root/5th tuning here....
I think it works so well in JI across the strings b/c the 4th and 5ths in JI are pure, where in ET they, especially the 5ths, are not-quite pure. So yes the 5th at B is a bit sharper than ET but that's b/c an ET 5th has been adjusted slightly to make it exactly the same distance as the other frets. If you were using JI on a one string instrument then yeah the E-F# would be slightly different than B-C# in terms of spacing of the frets, but on a multi-string instrument like this they line up across strings b/c they're a 4th or 5th from one to the other across the fret. If that makes sense.
@@almishti Hmm. I hear you. I still don't think an E string and B tuned pure can move up by the same size wholetone to F# and C# respectively and maintain a Just Tuned tonality. In my understanding, the 6 (C#) and 9 or 2(F#) have a weird relationship because they don't make a P4. Its an Achilles Heel of the system. I mean this is getting technical but for the sake of constructive discussion, in pure JI the 9 will always be tuned about 4 cents sharper than the Root while the 6 is about 16c flatter than an ET major 6th.
This tricky interval usually has to either be tweaked or avoided in my experience. In a chord, its always dicey and challenging to have the 5, 6 and 9 together tuned pure, and especially if there's pure 3rd in there too. The ear wants to hear wide fifths and narrow 3rds/6ths but it isn't possible, so ET is generally better for that kind of harmonic scenario. Or atleast a slightly tempered system.
I think the cigar box demo here sounds decent because the C# can be intonated narrow or wide as a 6th as its only bouncing off the E note. But I think that second fret is intonated for the wider F# interval.
Interesting stuff.
@@andyfrost8656 I see your point. On the one hand, I may be thinking in terms of Pythagorean tuning tuned by alternating 4ths and 5ths, where the F# would be tuned distinctly to the C#. On the other hand, I also work more with modal than with chordal music, where altering intervals the way you describe is not always as important, since there's no triads to have to sound 'good'. Medieval and Renaissance fretted instruments, of course, would solve problems like this one by using partial frets under the individual string that would take the altered interval.
oooo!! so does this mean the guitar is tied to a specific key / root note to sound right?
was just chatting with friends about how what I really need is a 3-string power chord machine, just tuned to root-fifth-octave- not sure if getting the fattest power chords is just a matter of tuning the *strings* in JI, or if the JI fret spacing is necessary. I presume with the JI fret spacing you're stuck to the root strings tuning and it'll sound 'off' with 12-TET instruments?
might sell my dust-collecting 7 & hit you up!
I love just intonation
I need this in my life. How?
hello, may I buy this guitar? Are you running it through anything special? I'd love to buy this tone from you if it is for sale. I will make tons of music with it and ALWAYS credit you!
Very interesting.
Does this mean, you'll have to move the frets in equal temperament?
When tuned with a standard guitar tuner using equal temperament the "cowboy" E chord 3rd (1st fret G string) is 14 cents sharp. So, I just fltten the G string 14 cents right? Not so fast; do it and play a "cowboy" C chord and listen to that open G string, the 5th. It is horribly flat. It is the water balloon effect. Push on one end and the other end bulges out.
EXACTLY
awesome. can anyone recommend the easiest way to start playing/composing in just intonation? When i first learned I restringed my guitar, only to quickly realize i could only play open strings and everything else was wonky! Lutes? Any inexpensive keyboards that let you tune all the keys? Any online programs that I could just hook midi into? (although I'd love an acoustic instrument). thanks
chuckhough you can get a fretless instrument and make your own sliding frets by tying nylon strings around the neck. Lutes have frets made similarly. In addition to just intonation, you might like 19-tone equal temperament (with near-pure minor thirds) or 31-tone equal temperament (with near-pure major thirds).
Judge Tonal proclaims this to be Just
Sounds great! I take it the 7th fret is the octave? I love this and you have kept it really simple. I don't know how well versed you are in Just theory but I wasn't sure if you have got a 7th harmonic? They get harder to hear and more 'exotic' as you go up but for a really bluesy sound be nice to get the 7th in (on an open string the 7th is exactly 69 parts of 100 division of where equal temperament would put the major 6th and the minor 7th fret if that makes sense - this might start to complicate the fretting though - JI can start producing very small fret spaces - either way good job!
so far i have been doing this by ear. A work buddy of mine (google Jim Snow) printed me out a 25 inch scale JI fret template and upon comparison it looks like i almost nailed it perfectly albeit the flat 7th interval where my ear gravitated toward the equal temperament note. other than that i got it nearly 'perfect'. i will use the computer generated template for my next iteration and see how it compares to where my ear says the frets should be...
Yeah thought it looked like a more intuitive approach than technical; way back people discovered harmonics as the basis of scales the world round - right just watched your just v equal fret vid which was helpful to work out what you got here; you have a minor 7th just short of an equal minor 7th but implied by reversing the scale as you suggest - the 7th harmonic is hard to pick out on lots of instruments but is a minor 7th much lower that is totally harmonious and again implying new pitches with as I say further harmonics being coming even more microtonal like the quarter tones of Arabic music. Even in Appalachian music for example they would often be fretless and tune and use pitches much further from normal before we standardised to equal temperament with frets, keyboards and the like and started to loss these inbetween colours - I presume your aware of some of the experiments in fretting to JI higher harmonics and equal temperaments other than an octave divided into 12? Anyway great to see your work - wish I was handy like this - I did a refret of a knackered old instrument in an alternative equal temperament (19ET); it worked but I am not a craftsman. All the best
This is great. Can you also provide the specs for fret spacing? I'd like to try a build using this format. Thanks.
If you're interested in experimenting on your own, the formula to calculate fret positions if you know what notes you want in your scale is really simple. For some fret that makes a just intonation ratio A:B with respect to the open string and a scale length of S, its distance from the nut is S*(1-(B/A)).
A typical just chromatic scale is something like 1:1, 16:15, 9:8, 6:5, 5:4, 4:3, some sort of tritone (7:5 or 45:32 or something), 3:2, 8:5, 5:3, 16:9 or 9:5, and 15:8. 10:9 is also nice to have for some chords and 7:6 and 7:4 can be fun for constructing barbershop 7th chords. Notes can be included or omitted according to personal preference.
If I had to guess, I'd say the CBG in the video uses a scale of 1:1, 9:8, 6:5, 5:4, 4:3, 3:2, maybe 16:9 or 7:4, 2:1, and then a few more past the octave.
A less sophisticated way to place frets is to just string up a guitar without any frets and add them anywhere you can get a harmonic off the string.
Jim - Thanks for that. Clearly I still have a lot to learn, for example, how all those ratios are initially established. But that's what makes this interesting.
really amazing. is it 440Hz=a or another tuning?
Hi great video but the strings sound like D#/A#/D# not E/B/E or maybe you didn't choose A=440hz ?
Your probably right..... the strings prolly still a stretchin...
This is beautiful!!! Is it possible to make a six string like that in just intonation? I almost don't want to play my regular guitar after hearing this...
Eli R Google "six string just intonation guitar"
You need more frets or bent frets. Because, six strings are three too many.
Great instruments. How much does ne like this cost? Thanks!
Depends on the bells and whistles 😆
I am interested in buying such a guitar from you
email me??
No, it's Eb, Bb, and Eb, but a little up in pitch.
Wow, that sounds amazing!
If equal temp is calculated and Just Temp is by ear, is this why guitars and ukes sometimes use compensated saddles? it makes no sense to me that a guitar would need an adjusted saddle if it was as simple as measuring the scale length to double the 12 fret. Is a compensated saddle an effort to replicate JT?
there are all sorts of methods and tricks and techniques used to "compensate' for the "errors" in equal temperament. But typically an adjustable saddle is used to adjust for the different string thicknesses. I suggest studying "intonation" and intonating using an adjustable saddle. It's all about getting that harmonic to line up directly over the 12th fret.
@@PuckettCigarBoxGuitar I'll study that like you said. I found a vid about different historical piano tunings, including JT, and i think i hate music now, its a whole order more complicated than i always thought it was. Tuning in it's self is an art.
Many Thanks to you sir, from an aspiring amateur. Props for replying to an old video.
It really depends on what you're playing. I play mostly jazz these days. With all the modulations and chromaticism, JI would really start to sound rough. For what you played, though, the stronger resonances really worked.
yup…you really do need the equal temperament for those symmetrical scales … JI will not sound right
@@PuckettCigarBoxGuitar Jazz really lives on those symmetrical scales like the diminished. I think JI would be tough for metal, too. Basically any genre with a lot of odd scales and/or key changes.
amazing where can we get instruments like this @Puckett Cigar Box Guitar
salomon pezin email me....puckettcbg@gmail.com
salomon pezin haha... I remember you Salmon !!!! I heard you music on your Instagram!!! Good stuff !!!
thank u
yu do great stuff too!!!
Great sound, do you have the spring(s) in this box too and what string did you use?
doggylv acoustic mediums
doggylv no springs in this one
Hey Del , i've found this ratio for calculating the space for just intonation .. s26.postimg.org/ubqjoyzrt/just_intonation.png ... do you think it will work? i transferred the ratio on my cigar box guitar neck (doing math and calculation in cm not inches) and i got all the notes do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si, i think it will rughtly work ... what's your thoughts .. ! let me know if i'm on the right path .. thanks a lot ..
Sounds fantastic, and this would be the way to go if you want that sound. Unfortunately, you're screwed if you wanna play any music that relies on changing modes/keys. That's why composers like Harry Partch ended up with massive, hard-to-play 43 note scales for equal-tempered instruments.
No, you're not screwed, you just need to accept a few more frets on the guitar. FreeNote Music makes guitars with 24 frets per octave that are intuitive to play. And let's face it, there is a LOT of real estate between standard frets, why not have some extra frets if it allows you to play pure, in-tune chords that have always been out of reach?
www.microtones.com
I know. I was specifically talking about this guitar in the video, which is simply tuned to a single scale.
fucking incredible!
Can you share the table of fret distance please? Also frequency of the JI.
try again I have other videos explaining more in depth
Great! How did You figure out the fret placement? is there a calculator (like the usual one on stewmac site)?
trial and....ear :-)
Another interesting thing about getting to the right position, is, the note you pluck on one side of where you hold your finger down will be in perfect harmony (just intonation harmony) with the note you pluck on the OTHER side. Perfect ratios.
So - it is tuned to ebe. It sounds fantastic, but I am a bit confused.
That you can get just intonation on the e strings, I have no problems with.
That you can get just intonation on the b string is also OK.
But, how come it works together?
It should be like two instruments tuned to different base tone, would it not?
Roland Karlsson you can think of it that way. Because the patterns are similar [not exact mind you] you can get away with sharing the fret positions for the 1 and the 5.... so the JI fretboard is perfect for the 3 string tuned 151
Thanks for your reply.
Thanx
I do really like the pureness and I want a harp so I can play something with this. But when you go down the chords like that it sounds fake. IT's too perfect.
You should sell these. Are you? Interested.
FreeNote Music makes guitars in Just Intonation, they are at www.microtones.com
Here's a video with both Just Intonation guitar and bass: ruclips.net/video/Vw6_pJ65Atc/видео.html
Never thought id enjoy a box guitar that much. If i weren't so lazy i would make one. I put on buzzy featon tempered frets on a guitar but, since i was making an album and it was useless to join the fray, i removed them. With violin and vocals being my most comfortable instruments, tempered scale has always annoyed my ears.
2:23 sounds like Wrongside of Heaven, but in a different key
do you make/sell these by chance?
Guilty until proven innocent!!!
PLESE DO A TUTORIAL ON HOW TO BUILD THE NECK PLEASE!!!
Michael Angelo I have a few....
Michael Angelo here’s one ruclips.net/video/kO34GrJwNFs/видео.html
Michael Angelo here’s another ruclips.net/video/VN5yNCWMr_E/видео.html.
thank you!
also, what pickup did you use for the just intonation one? it sounds so beautiful
Can you do a string like this?
like what??
better yet how much for that guitar?
larmarbev email me from my website ... Or text me ... My digits are at www.delpuckettcbg.com
Why do you slant your bridge or saddle as you call it?
sidney001 INTONATION... see my intonation video....
Just watched it, makes sense now, many thanks Dale
Totally Microtonal, maaaan!
Jon Catler would be proud: ruclips.net/video/O2eukIoSsKM/видео.html
Welcome to the vast world of “oriental” music with 4000 years of history xD
There's nothing "oriental" about JI
@@eyescreamcake While most of the "occidental" (american and european) folk music have surrendered to the 12-TET hegemony, most of the "oriental" (middle-eastern, indian, japanese, etc.) folk music have loyally maintained its JI intervals in their musical instruments since prehistory until today. As example, you can easily realize this fact by comparing the fretting system between a greek bouzouki and a turkish bağlama. Because of this fact, JI intervals sound "oriental" or "exotic" to most of the western-world ears.
Just to clear some misunderstandings ; these frets do not provide perfect intonation.That awesome major third for example. Is too low.
50% science, 50% opinion 50% interpretation
@@PuckettCigarBoxGuitar 150% bs and you know it. If you don't understand intonation you could at least not mislead people.
Pe6ek don’t withhold your knowledge... share what you know.
@@PuckettCigarBoxGuitar I would recommend that you read a bit about Pythagoras and of course his famous comma. This will explain why no fixed intonation instrument will ever be perfectly in tune.
Just Intonation is how the composers of old would tune their pianos... they would tune each note to match the harmonics rendering the instrument only able to play in the key they tuned it to. it's as close you can get (according to the harmonic series and the human ear) to 'perfect intonation" but you're right ... there is no such thing as 'perfect intonation" only closer and closer. too many variables and factors to overcome. That's why they 'invented' the 12 tone equal temperament. this was to 'disguise' or BLUR the error equally over all twelve tones.
Wow, great. My whole damn life i knew something wasnt right. 43 years later i learn about equal temperment. Music theory is founded on a lie. Need autotune for guitar to set my note to just intonation.
>these chords are much more musical than those chords
Sorry , I have been a musician for over 50 years and I'm not convinced .
I'm not sure he's trying to convince you of anything. It's just the lovely sound of a just intonation instrument.
Totally out of tune.
I hate to be a party pooper but the sound you are hearing is not just intonation. The reason why this sounds so good is because he is playing in octaves and fifths. If you took a guitar and did the same thing it would sound the same. Thats why power chords sound so good, because they are in fifth.
The fret spacing has no effect on the chords. At least not the chords that sound good. The fret spacing only effects the difference between one power chord and the next. but that is not having any effect on the sound of the music.
In short its just power chords with octaves that is giving that sound. The just intonation has no effect.
Another reason why this sounds so good is the same reason why Susan Boyle became famous, by lowering the expectations at the beginning any thing positive becomes amplified in your mind once they start playing.
Sorry guys
nosson77 have you heard the major 3rd ? Have you seen any of my other videos explaining the theory behind JI and the harmonic divisions with diagrams and templates and whatnot? JI shares the same 5th as Equal Temperament so if I played in fifths only then there would be no difference as you suggest BUT (note) that JI makes the THIRDS an the SIXTHS sound sweeter because the frets are more properly aligned with the ‘divide by 5 harmonic for MAJOR’ and the ‘divide by 4 harmonic for MINOR’
See my video on Pythagorean Tuning for tuning in (and playing in) FIFTHS - that video would be more suitable to your comments than this one
I enjoy the discussion
😎
I have to agree with Mr. Cigar Box here. It sounds good because it's just intonation, which you achieve by using the harmonics. It's also called the overtone series. A normal guitar does not sound the same (I wish it did). Equal temperament can sound absolutely annoying to the sensitive ear.
1:24 = JI major 6ths (in blues sequence)
3:51 = JI major chord (wonderful!)
My worst nightmare. Making an instrument especially a "guitar", more Pentatonic.
Sorry , I have been a musician for over 50 years and I'm not convinced .
Nicolas here is someone else who presents this material. ruclips.net/video/XT4oOYj4SwQ/видео.html - i suggest you keep researching... like the old saying goes “Learn something new everyday”. I’ve been a musician all my live as well and just discovered this recently.
Jon Catler showing detuned 3rds & 7ths on electric guitar: ruclips.net/video/O2eukIoSsKM/видео.html