Was teaching some of my friends SF6, and one of them IMMEDIATELY upon seeing “punish counter” pop up, he went “oh, is that when you hit a move when they’re stuck after a big move?” Like I didn’t even have to explain it, they just got it, it’s such an intuitive mechanic
shocking to me that this isnt a natural thing in fighting games, irl if you land a solid blow after your opponent completely whiffs a punch it's just over, you knock em out cold
@@brandongao2503I get what you mean, but certain games just aren’t as footsie-heavy as SF6. Games like MKX and DBFZ wouldnt need stuff like this cause they’re so mixup heavy it would be useless to implement
this is just not true in most martial arts. counterhits (idk if boxing created the term but it’s been boxing for decades) are always much more devastating hits than “whiff punishes” in any martial art that does not involve weapons
@@rog.140 yes It is a thing with most characters. it's dangerous to attempt to tech, because of u didn't get thrown, you'd get hit hard. if you teched successfully though, all you get is a little space. you'd still be cornered.
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What’s nice about punish counters for beginners is that you can do a simple combo or even a throw and be rewarded without having to learn a higher damaged punish. I remember when I first started I was punishing with throw a lot
Punish-counter is probably one of my favourite mechanics of all times, it worth mentioning certain fighters already had a similar mechanic in place before SF6 like VF, MK11(certain crushing blows,) and soulcalibur 6(certain lethal hits)
Mk11 KB is NOTHING like sf6 punish counter. Kbs were one of the worst and most unbalanced mechanics in FGs. You have to work to make punish counters happen. Kbs were just braindead especially d2. Some were broken like throws and some characters had way too many like liu kang where u literally save up all ur KBs to use in last round for him, geras, spawn, joker, kabal, jax while some characters had one good KB and then nothing. Game was a complete mess. I still liked it tho, lol
Punish Counter became my favorite mechanic i want it in future SF games too, i dont mind getting hit by it, well earned, feels better in SF game, also the sound effect isn't really loud like Crush Counter, amazing vid!
Honestly, Punish Counters is one of those ideas that, in hindsight, I'm surprised no one had done before. I can see it becoming very commonplace in traditional 2D fighting games from now on.
I think you left one point out that made Crush Counters reviled - the priority normal system. Mediums would beat out lights if they connected on the same frame, while heavies would beat both mediums and lights. Because Crush Counters were almost always heavies, they would stomp out any opposing normal button of lower strength. You were effectively fishing for Crush Counters with little to zero risk. That no longer happens in 6. Instead, we get trade combo potential.
I don't get this "fishing for Crush Counters" argument. Saying there is "no risk" to pressing a heavy normal with 30+ total frames is insane, you are definitely getting whiff punished if you aren't placing those buttons well, and you can still get stuffed on startup. Crush Counters were designed to lose to whiff punishing/waiting, and to slow down medium/light buffering in neutral, a strategy which is ACTUALLY campy and hard to target, which now runs rampant in SF6 with +oB Drive Rush cancels and no priority system on normals. Crush Counter was an overpowered mechanic back when we had to play in 8 frames of input delay and Urien's fierce led into 35% meterless, but for most of SFV's lifespan, that really wasn't how it worked.
This is a reason why wake up jab is a common thing again and why mashing is also making a comeback. The priority system was a good thing in combating these sort of things. This is also a big reason why this game's drive rush jab bullshit is such a problem. I think this game sorely needs a priority system.
@@sadnroramoyes you might get punished, if you don't hit the opponent's block. and even if you do get punished, its not like sf6 where whiff punishing is ridiculously strong, in sfv it was not only risky, it was also less strong than fishing for counters
It's worth mentioning that even if SF6 has certain moves that put the opponent into a falling state on punish counter: 1) it's only the move you punish counter with that matters, meaning all you need to learn are which moves YOUR character does that with 2) it's pretty intuitive which moves do that, generally it's heavy normals
I started playing fighting games right before sf6, it's the main game I play. Punish counters make so much sense as a mechanic, I didn't realize they weren't in other games until now. I just thought they were called something else
Another thing about Crush Counter was that SFV had a real priority system for normals, where heavier normals didn't trade against lower strength ones, so that combined with the Crush Counter effects created an extra incentive to just throw out heavies hoping for a random free hit confirm, specially with SFV's bad netcode.
punish counter as a concept feels so intuitive that i go back to old games and get thrown off that they're not there. i remember years ago not really understanding crush counters (i was mega casual) but after playing with 6s system i just kinda understood cc by just rewatching sf5 footage and being "oh its just weird ch/pc"
sfv was always super hard for me to get into but 6 has been extremely fun to learn so far. the intuitive nature of punishes is definitely a big factor to me lol
SF6 is basically accessibility + complexity all in 1 neatlrey tired package, all gameshre shreould be likre thishrel tbhre, easy2learn but hard2masterh.
this can be applied to most fighters too. Giving more reward over shit that 9 times outta 10 just happens at random over punishing makes 0 sense. i’ve always been thinking GGST counter slo mo should only be a thing on punishes
@@zakai004fr punishing anything is related to skill, counter hit is not necessarily skill based. which is stupid when you need counter hit state for max damages
I think that’s a mark of a really good mechanic, genuinely, it’s such a simple addition that not only add so much more possibility to neutral and punishes, but also reinforces the type of gameplay street fighter as a franchise is known for
@@zakai004 No, it really can't be applied to GGST. Strive is not designed in a way that punish counter would work better than startup counters. Skipping over all the details, the game just isn't built for punish-based footsies. That's not how you're supposed to play it, that's how you're supposed to play *Street Fighter.* It's so impractical in GGST to plan out whiff punishes, or even block punishes, due to how safe most characters can stay in neutral. It also makes it very rare to get an accidental one once you're past floor 8 or so. Startup counterhits are for hard callouts and frame traps, and IMO they work great for that. Edit: Another important thing to mention is that there are a couple characters who actually *do* get more frequent whiff punishes in Strive. Mainly, Chipp, Millia, and (thanks to Dandy Step) Slayer. But Chipp and Millia are both balanced by low damage, so they really shouldn't be getting buffs to their whiff punishes, and Slayer already does more damage than most of the playerbase thinks he should. Basically, I think whiff punish bonuses would be an anti-balancing measure for them.
@@ΚρανίΩYeah exactly, CHs on Lights is so stupid, like cmon thats not skill thats just luck, CHs shreouldntre even have ever breen a threinglhre tbh i h8 them, almost as much as RNG and comebrlreack mechanichsre lol.
Punish counter also makes it so that I can hit a button after I blocked a move and have it hit and not wonder if the dude just didn't block or if it was a an actual punish. Fuck labbing frame data.
I still like labbing but man its so much easier mid match to remember "hey i can punish that with this? That means i can do this " vs a game like tekken where you have to lab to know what is punishable, duckable, step-able etc.
In the BlazBlue games, they've had a thing called 'Fatal Counters' which is attached to character specific button and even certain moves. All it does is give additional hitstun for combos and gives improved routes for 'counter specific combos' A neat mechanic and allows for an element of counter fishing in neutral without being overwhelming.
Legit. I know people hate the negativity but playing MK1 after SF6 is the first time I felt like I was playing underwater with a modern fighting game. SF6 really does just deserve praise for its game feel alone.
BlazBlue has something similar to this called Fatal Counter. The difference is that like Crush Counters it's only a specific 1-2 moves that have the Fatal Counter property but unlike Crush Counters they are on moves that you're not likely to throw out in neutral trying to fish for a whiff punish. If you're going for a Fatal Counter it's highly intentional because the moves that do Fatal Counter are generally slower moves.
Wow. SF6 is my first fighting game and honestly I just assumed Punish Counters (along with Counter Hits) had been around forever. They just make so much intuitive sense, I thought they must have been part of the Street Fighter DNA since the early days. I'm surprised to learn it's a new thing.
As someone who never played sf5 and started with sf6, I am baffled at how there wasn't already some kind of system like this in previous titles. Its SO intuitive, it rewards you for knowing frame data AND whiff punishing
Another thing I like more about punish counters is that you don’t have to do a dash up before continuing the combo. I remember playing SF5 as my first fighting game and I could tell that I should be able to do something after getting a crush counter, but none of my attacks would reach. When you get a punish counter, you just press another button and something happens.
Ah yes stubby fighter 5 was real lol. Look at the footage of broski doing heavy kick with Ryu in 5 and 6, LOOK AT HOW CLOSE RYU HAS TO BE IN 5 FOR IT TO HIT!
There are a handful of punish counters where they are sent spinning away and you follow up with a drive rush in order to convert. Luke's 4HK and Dee Jay's 5HK come to mind.
Punish Counters are so great, it's hard to believe it's even a new mechanic. It feels like something that should've been part of the series for a long time, if not the very beginning.
Outside of the drive system it was the one new feature that I immediately felt excited about before the launch of 6. I just love elegant system mechanics that also play hard into defining how a game feels and there's not a lot of dopamine hits that are as juicy as shimmying and whiff punishing your opponent into a punish counter combo. Even going back into other fighting games after playing SF6 it feels almost strange that most of the time you just get a little "punish" text on screen that you're often too far out of range to act on.
Really does feel like N&M just tries to fix the mess that Ono left behind in SFV but with SF6 they had all the control to actually make something coherent.
Imo, crush counters worked pretty well with Alex. As his heavys were useful for pressuring on wake up it was a really good punish for people pressing on wake up
The Punish Counter state specifically on heavies was implemented brilliantly. While there are some differences in function, the loud, distinct sound and hitstop allow you to realize you've punished something big and can go in for a combo. Endlessly satisfying
One other thing I loved about the way Counter Hit and Punish Counter system is it solved another problem SFV had which was a lot of players complained about combo variety especially when you are talking the range from like gold -plat all the way to diamond, most people could do it. With punish counter it feels way more free form that if you want a simpler combo when you are just learning you can, if you want to squeeze out more damage there are paths and things to explore. It wasnt so much the first combo you learned was the most optimal therefore it looked like everyone was doing the same thing. With a franchise not doing 1frame links anymore this was a good alternative to add
Another great feature is that it teaches players what is punishable and when your opponent was just mashing/not blocking. Really helped me when I started out
Maybe cause I played Sakura but I found her st hk crush counter in neutral very intentional specifically against zoners. After getting into the range for it and poking with it to catch a start up on a fireball
One thing i like is that some punish counters have special hits/knockdowns based on what move you used, like a specific heavy, so you only need to memorise your own character's punish counter specific things. As opposed to crush counters, where only specific moves were crush counterable, so you would need to learn or memorise everyone else's crush counterable moves.
My first serious Street fighter game is SF6 and punish counters always felt so natural and intuitive as a mechanic that I didn't even consider that they didn't existe in previous games.
Great video! Yes Punish Counter is what crush counter in SFV should have been. Actually my favourite thing about the mechanic is that it opens up different combos and situations, vastly adding to the depth of the game.
I love this mechanic. I'm playing multiple fighting games right now and there are two mechanics that hurt incredibly bad when they don't have them. The first is this, because it makes punishes feel like they matter. The second is dash block. If you play any game where you can run continuously(drive rush counts here), the inability to stop running is so painful.
hi Broski, i love punish counter mechanic too, and FYI before SF6 there's already a game that implements the same mechanic, that is DNF Duel (i love that game too, too bad it doesn't thrive)
Ive loved PC since launch I really do hope it sticks I love that characters get better punishes on unsafe and unspaces things Dhalsim mains are deffo big fans
As someone who never really played SF5 and only casually touched SF4, I straight up just assumed punish counters were already a thing in street fighter. Like it just slotted in so naturally I never even realized it was a new mechanic for SF6.
The best mechanics are ones you don't really mind when they happen to you. That's why crush counter sucked and punish counter is great. If you get punish countered, you just shrug your shoulders because either you know you deserved it because you made a clear mistake or you know you've simply been outplayed.
Played fighting games for years but this is my first serious attempt playing street fighter. Its so intuitive that TBH I was quite shocked to learn that its a relatively new addition to the series. When I got a handle on it I even remember thinking "Oh...so THIS is why this series has a bigger reputation for focus on footsies and neutral than any other series.....got it." Feels like it always should have been there for sure. Emphasizes grounded footsies and also adds an additional risk to reversal/wakeup options.
Punish Counter having moves that get extra effects is the same as Crush Counter existing -- certain moves give a bigger punish, a knockdown etc. if they hit under a certain condition. Except it's still better because you don't have to memorize the list of all the moves on other characters that can be countered, you only have to know the half that's part of your character's kit.
There is a lot of people here in the comments EVEN AFTER he showed SFV that really think punish counters aren't the same as crush counters. Lol, they are near identical. Same crumple states, same big damage, same easy combos.
@@WutTheDeuceGamingsoon as you said same crumple states i knew you didn't know shit about the game. in sfv, the crumples made you fall to your knees, allowing for crouching only combos, regular dashes after the hit and much more leniency, in sfvi, the crumples are simply a small amount of time to hit the opponent and then they are considered airborne, combos are not the same or nearly the same in sfv and sfvi, but that changes nothing from the fact the mechanic is fundementally different. it rewards you for punishing an opponent doing unsafe moves, in sfv it rewarded you for stubbing an opponent before they hit you. getting max damage because you luckily hit your opponent while they were pressing a button is not the same as whiff punishing or punishing on block. one takes skill, the other takes luck
@@WutTheDeuceGaming Punish counter overall is nothing like crush counter. There are certain moves where you get an unusually large reward because they have special properties on PC. That is the part that's similar to Crush Counter, except it feels more rewarding while also being simpler, because whiff punish feels better than counterhit and also you don't have to memorize all the moves you can punish. Punish counter is like they took Crush Counter, removed everything bad and made it way better designed.
One other huge thing about it is it teaches frame data without having to look it up or go into lab. I know if I block a move and hit a button and it says punish counter, I know at least how negative that move is right then and there.
They remind me a lot of SoulCalibur6's lethal hit system. For reference, in SC6, certain moves were intended to be used in certain ways. And doing so would reward you with a big flashy explosive combo-starting hit. It's not as universal.. there was no non-character specific ways of triggering any particular lethal hit, and in typical 3D fighter tradition it was very knowledge checky and you would see moves you've never seen before used in unusual situations. But it was oh so satisfying having the perfect move to use in the right situation. Like having a 22B which universally sidesteps opponent's vertical attacks.. and doing so gives you a lethal hit.. Or one of my favorites, Kilik's 4A which is just a quick low-poke to snipe people's ankles for low reward normally.. but do it 4 times in a row without the opponent catching on and now they get launched. (Or sometimes they were memes used for characterization purposes.. Like how Raphael and Amy had ones which only triggered against each other for story reasons... Or Ivy's groin kick has a lethal hit against men..)
Crush Counters were just one reason of many that SFV frustrated the life out of me haha Punish counters by comparison are easy to understand and (often) gives you a very cool combo
I'm surprised that Punish Counter seems to have such a positive reception. I'm so used to people bickering at every new mechanic and design choice in modern fighting games, I figured people would complain that Punish Counters "make Counter Hits too easy to land" or whatever, but I haven't seen anyone say anything like that yet.
Punish Counters are unequivocally my favorite things about sf6 and the thing that makes playing other games the hardest. They just fit perfectly into the reward expectation system ingrained in me by every other game. When I was learning how to play fighting games because not many games reward you preemptively attacking (and if they do it's usually only with random mobs you can stagger out of attack) counters and not punishes giving you extra hitstun was weird, and since virtually every game has the "learn and avoid the attack pattern so you can be rewarded with getting damageat the end" reward model I thought that it should be the other way around. But I just figured that that it was balanced out by how the reward of punishing at all was guaranteed damage and you still have the big dp and super punish combos and everyone loves those. But punish counters just feel a lot better, and I think it would be really easy for someone to assume that they they were just a part of every 2D fighter because of how well they fit into that reward system. And the dopamine rush from a DP punish comes more from the starter you get to use because they're so minus that you can hit them with whatever crazy starter you want. I'm not sure every game should have it, but I definitely miss it in every game I've played without it. Unfortunately, punish counters also contribute to what is unequivocally the worst thing in sf6, which is when your air to air is punishable on hit because they landed before you and now get to punish counter the move you hit them out of the air with. It is easily the worst feeling thing that can happen in the game and I think it shouldn't exist in any game. Yes, I have had a Geif player punish counter SPD me after I air to aired them and yes I am incredibly salty to this day.
My favorite thing about punish counter is how it effects the learning experience. Any time my opponent does an unsafe move and I jab after, I immediately see the punish counter and recognize that I did a real punish. It completely takes away the constant guessing game of "is that move actually unsafe or did my opponent just decide not to block"
Imma be real, I was suprised to see SF6 was the first game to have the punish counter, it just made so much sense to me when I started playing fighting games with 6 that hitting a whiffed move or something punishable that you'd be punished more severely for it, really like the mechanic
That beginning part about "being very critical of things you really like" is very common thing in American men as well. We're often just socialized into interacting "negatively" with things we like or enjoy more commonly than interacting overtly positively. At the very least, it can be rare for someone to praise something without feeling the need to point out a spot for improvement
The punish counter system is a better reward for whiff punishing/solid fundamentals than crush counters. Crush counters was interesting at the time but in hindsight, it heavily rewards spamming certain normals that have kinda skip neutral with long range. Certain characters get to benefit way more from it than others. Its still like that in SF6 but more rounded. I think how far a hitbox stretches outward away from the hurtbox is very important but possibly overlooked. Hence, stubby normals. Then you have phantom hurtboxes where you can clearly see the model's limb overlapping each other but nothing happens. This kind if deception has been present since SF4
Removing close normals in the same game that they added crush counter was the dumbest idea, it made way more sense as an up close read you make with a heavy button than how CC ended up working in 5.
PC is the main thing that I point to when people try to say SF6 has no neutral or doesnt reward good neutral, the mechanic in combination with extended hit/hurt boxes and longer whiff recovery make it very well arguably the game that rewards good neutral the most in the modern franchise
Ngl the way you always ask for a subscription in a new and funny way every time made me subscribe whereas people saying ''make sure the hit the bell and turn on notifications'' just fly right over my head
I do have my issues with it (mostly in terms of block punishes with lights converting into pretty big combos if you're character has a fast heavy) but it is mostly a pretty great mechanic.
Im a big fighting game fan but a poor player and punish counters were so intuitive and made so much sense I just assumed they were always there. Great analysis!
I started playing fighting games seriously with SF6 and I am baffled that punish counter is a new mechanic. It seems as fundamental as combos - in my mind it seems like a standard mechanic that would have been figured out early on.
As an Australian, the criticise it because I like it makes perfect sense. If I don't like something, I'm not going to be talking about it at all. If I do like something then I'll point out the things that could be improved about it because I want the thing to be even better.
I think at some point everyone that played SFV though "why doesn't this(crush counter) happen on whiff punish instead" and I'm glad they refined it for 6 instead of scraping it completely.
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Was teaching some of my friends SF6, and one of them IMMEDIATELY upon seeing “punish counter” pop up, he went “oh, is that when you hit a move when they’re stuck after a big move?” Like I didn’t even have to explain it, they just got it, it’s such an intuitive mechanic
And well, the name is pretty selfreszh-exhreplanatoreylkrtrerdzszh treoo lol.
Took me a while to understand that it gave me plus frames though, I thought it just did more damage for a long while.
shocking to me that this isnt a natural thing in fighting games, irl if you land a solid blow after your opponent completely whiffs a punch it's just over, you knock em out cold
@@brandongao2503I get what you mean, but certain games just aren’t as footsie-heavy as SF6. Games like MKX and DBFZ wouldnt need stuff like this cause they’re so mixup heavy it would be useless to implement
this is just not true in most martial arts. counterhits (idk if boxing created the term but it’s been boxing for decades) are always much more devastating hits than “whiff punishes” in any martial art that does not involve weapons
Ahh, so Broski actually *loves* throw loops, got it
That's exactly where my mind went lol
Throw loops is really a thing? What if u tech it? (Genuine question)
Do you even play SF? @@rog.140
@@rog.140 yes It is a thing with most characters. it's dangerous to attempt to tech, because of u didn't get thrown, you'd get hit hard. if you teched successfully though, all you get is a little space. you'd still be cornered.
@@rog.140 u miss the tech u get a 6k dmg combo
This is my first fighting game. Just shocked to learn that this is new. It makes so much sense.
Its not new. It just has a different name.
@@WutTheDeuceGamingnew to street fighter franchise and basically every mainstream fighting game currently. vf soilcalibur are not mainstream anymore
Same. I found it super intuitive.
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@@SimoneBellomonte Pfp is from a panel of The Unbelievable Gwenpool (Artist for that run was Gurihiru and its a goated run).
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sf6 is the first traditional fighter I really learned and I just assumed punish counter was a standard mechanic for the genre
What’s nice about punish counters for beginners is that you can do a simple combo or even a throw and be rewarded without having to learn a higher damaged punish. I remember when I first started I was punishing with throw a lot
Punish-counter is probably one of my favourite mechanics of all times, it worth mentioning certain fighters already had a similar mechanic in place before SF6 like VF, MK11(certain crushing blows,) and soulcalibur 6(certain lethal hits)
idk much about those games but "certain" sounds like a pretty fundamental difference that misses whats so elegant about the system in sf6
Mk11 KB is NOTHING like sf6 punish counter. Kbs were one of the worst and most unbalanced mechanics in FGs. You have to work to make punish counters happen. Kbs were just braindead especially d2. Some were broken like throws and some characters had way too many like liu kang where u literally save up all ur KBs to use in last round for him, geras, spawn, joker, kabal, jax while some characters had one good KB and then nothing. Game was a complete mess. I still liked it tho, lol
Yay, someone who remembers lethal hits (and that Soul Calibur exists😭)
@@JP_LDN582 don't whiff then!
Exactly, KBs are horrible@@gotmefkedup1181
Punish Counter became my favorite mechanic i want it in future SF games too, i dont mind getting hit by it, well earned, feels better in SF game, also the sound effect isn't really loud like Crush Counter, amazing vid!
Honestly, Punish Counters is one of those ideas that, in hindsight, I'm surprised no one had done before. I can see it becoming very commonplace in traditional 2D fighting games from now on.
I think you left one point out that made Crush Counters reviled - the priority normal system. Mediums would beat out lights if they connected on the same frame, while heavies would beat both mediums and lights. Because Crush Counters were almost always heavies, they would stomp out any opposing normal button of lower strength. You were effectively fishing for Crush Counters with little to zero risk.
That no longer happens in 6. Instead, we get trade combo potential.
I don't get this "fishing for Crush Counters" argument. Saying there is "no risk" to pressing a heavy normal with 30+ total frames is insane, you are definitely getting whiff punished if you aren't placing those buttons well, and you can still get stuffed on startup. Crush Counters were designed to lose to whiff punishing/waiting, and to slow down medium/light buffering in neutral, a strategy which is ACTUALLY campy and hard to target, which now runs rampant in SF6 with +oB Drive Rush cancels and no priority system on normals. Crush Counter was an overpowered mechanic back when we had to play in 8 frames of input delay and Urien's fierce led into 35% meterless, but for most of SFV's lifespan, that really wasn't how it worked.
This is a reason why wake up jab is a common thing again and why mashing is also making a comeback. The priority system was a good thing in combating these sort of things. This is also a big reason why this game's drive rush jab bullshit is such a problem.
I think this game sorely needs a priority system.
@@sadnroramoyes you might get punished, if you don't hit the opponent's block. and even if you do get punished, its not like sf6 where whiff punishing is ridiculously strong, in sfv it was not only risky, it was also less strong than fishing for counters
@@WutTheDeuceGaming You talking like wake up jab is new?
It's worth mentioning that even if SF6 has certain moves that put the opponent into a falling state on punish counter:
1) it's only the move you punish counter with that matters, meaning all you need to learn are which moves YOUR character does that with
2) it's pretty intuitive which moves do that, generally it's heavy normals
I started playing fighting games right before sf6, it's the main game I play. Punish counters make so much sense as a mechanic, I didn't realize they weren't in other games until now. I just thought they were called something else
Another thing about Crush Counter was that SFV had a real priority system for normals, where heavier normals didn't trade against lower strength ones, so that combined with the Crush Counter effects created an extra incentive to just throw out heavies hoping for a random free hit confirm, specially with SFV's bad netcode.
punish counter as a concept feels so intuitive that i go back to old games and get thrown off that they're not there.
i remember years ago not really understanding crush counters (i was mega casual) but after playing with 6s system i just kinda understood cc by just rewatching sf5 footage and being "oh its just weird ch/pc"
The crush counter sound effect triggers an anger response in my mind like nothing else 😅
sfv was always super hard for me to get into but 6 has been extremely fun to learn so far. the intuitive nature of punishes is definitely a big factor to me lol
SF6 is basically accessibility + complexity all in 1 neatlrey tired package, all gameshre shreould be likre thishrel tbhre, easy2learn but hard2masterh.
@@SimoneBellomonteHey man, are you okay?
Nothing in the world feels better than punish counter with AKI when you do heavy standing kick into heavy cruel fate
Objection! I prefer 2hk punish counter into drive rush combo, that’s neat
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it really is so simple, kinda scary it took until 6 for them to come up with this 😭
this can be applied to most fighters too. Giving more reward over shit that 9 times outta 10 just happens at random over punishing makes 0 sense. i’ve always been thinking GGST counter slo mo should only be a thing on punishes
@@zakai004fr punishing anything is related to skill, counter hit is not necessarily skill based. which is stupid when you need counter hit state for max damages
I think that’s a mark of a really good mechanic, genuinely, it’s such a simple addition that not only add so much more possibility to neutral and punishes, but also reinforces the type of gameplay street fighter as a franchise is known for
@@zakai004 No, it really can't be applied to GGST. Strive is not designed in a way that punish counter would work better than startup counters. Skipping over all the details, the game just isn't built for punish-based footsies. That's not how you're supposed to play it, that's how you're supposed to play *Street Fighter.* It's so impractical in GGST to plan out whiff punishes, or even block punishes, due to how safe most characters can stay in neutral. It also makes it very rare to get an accidental one once you're past floor 8 or so. Startup counterhits are for hard callouts and frame traps, and IMO they work great for that.
Edit: Another important thing to mention is that there are a couple characters who actually *do* get more frequent whiff punishes in Strive. Mainly, Chipp, Millia, and (thanks to Dandy Step) Slayer. But Chipp and Millia are both balanced by low damage, so they really shouldn't be getting buffs to their whiff punishes, and Slayer already does more damage than most of the playerbase thinks he should. Basically, I think whiff punish bonuses would be an anti-balancing measure for them.
@@ΚρανίΩYeah exactly, CHs on Lights is so stupid, like cmon thats not skill thats just luck, CHs shreouldntre even have ever breen a threinglhre tbh i h8 them, almost as much as RNG and comebrlreack mechanichsre lol.
Punish counter also makes it so that I can hit a button after I blocked a move and have it hit and not wonder if the dude just didn't block or if it was a an actual punish. Fuck labbing frame data.
I still like labbing but man its so much easier mid match to remember "hey i can punish that with this? That means i can do this " vs a game like tekken where you have to lab to know what is punishable, duckable, step-able etc.
SF6 has some of the best visual and audio feedback in the game, even before you go into accessibility options.
Exactly, it's great for on the fly learning
In the BlazBlue games, they've had a thing called 'Fatal Counters' which is attached to character specific button and even certain moves.
All it does is give additional hitstun for combos and gives improved routes for 'counter specific combos'
A neat mechanic and allows for an element of counter fishing in neutral without being overwhelming.
Sf6 is really one of those games that just feels good
well said
Legit. I know people hate the negativity but playing MK1 after SF6 is the first time I felt like I was playing underwater with a modern fighting game. SF6 really does just deserve praise for its game feel alone.
holy shit is that jiimi2580???
Most capcom games prior to SF4 felt good. It's just a mixture of having the speed the game, the freeze and the input lag at low levels.
@@aledantih6524mk1 had me yelling at my computer and i NEVER do that
BlazBlue has something similar to this called Fatal Counter. The difference is that like Crush Counters it's only a specific 1-2 moves that have the Fatal Counter property but unlike Crush Counters they are on moves that you're not likely to throw out in neutral trying to fish for a whiff punish. If you're going for a Fatal Counter it's highly intentional because the moves that do Fatal Counter are generally slower moves.
Wow. SF6 is my first fighting game and honestly I just assumed Punish Counters (along with Counter Hits) had been around forever. They just make so much intuitive sense, I thought they must have been part of the Street Fighter DNA since the early days. I'm surprised to learn it's a new thing.
As someone who never played sf5 and started with sf6, I am baffled at how there wasn't already some kind of system like this in previous titles. Its SO intuitive, it rewards you for knowing frame data AND whiff punishing
Hello capybara man
Another thing I like more about punish counters is that you don’t have to do a dash up before continuing the combo. I remember playing SF5 as my first fighting game and I could tell that I should be able to do something after getting a crush counter, but none of my attacks would reach. When you get a punish counter, you just press another button and something happens.
Ah yes stubby fighter 5 was real lol. Look at the footage of broski doing heavy kick with Ryu in 5 and 6, LOOK AT HOW CLOSE RYU HAS TO BE IN 5 FOR IT TO HIT!
There are a handful of punish counters where they are sent spinning away and you follow up with a drive rush in order to convert. Luke's 4HK and Dee Jay's 5HK come to mind.
Punish Counters are so great, it's hard to believe it's even a new mechanic. It feels like something that should've been part of the series for a long time, if not the very beginning.
Outside of the drive system it was the one new feature that I immediately felt excited about before the launch of 6. I just love elegant system mechanics that also play hard into defining how a game feels and there's not a lot of dopamine hits that are as juicy as shimmying and whiff punishing your opponent into a punish counter combo. Even going back into other fighting games after playing SF6 it feels almost strange that most of the time you just get a little "punish" text on screen that you're often too far out of range to act on.
Really does feel like N&M just tries to fix the mess that Ono left behind in SFV but with SF6 they had all the control to actually make something coherent.
This is funny cause I started on sf6 and punish counter made so much sense I honestly didn’t know if it was sf6 exclusive or not
Imo, crush counters worked pretty well with Alex. As his heavys were useful for pressuring on wake up it was a really good punish for people pressing on wake up
I played SF5 for a while and it took this video to figure out the ways crush counters worked different on some things 💀
The Punish Counter state specifically on heavies was implemented brilliantly. While there are some differences in function, the loud, distinct sound and hitstop allow you to realize you've punished something big and can go in for a combo. Endlessly satisfying
One other thing I loved about the way Counter Hit and Punish Counter system is it solved another problem SFV had which was a lot of players complained about combo variety especially when you are talking the range from like gold -plat all the way to diamond, most people could do it.
With punish counter it feels way more free form that if you want a simpler combo when you are just learning you can, if you want to squeeze out more damage there are paths and things to explore. It wasnt so much the first combo you learned was the most optimal therefore it looked like everyone was doing the same thing. With a franchise not doing 1frame links anymore this was a good alternative to add
Everbody should listen to the first minute of this video everytime they go online. It would help a lot, since it's also true to me.
Ever since I subscribed to Broksi's channel, I have been super consistent with my combos and never miss a whiff punish. Thanks Broski
Another great feature is that it teaches players what is punishable and when your opponent was just mashing/not blocking. Really helped me when I started out
this could be best sf6 video i ever watch for a long time well done sir
Maybe cause I played Sakura but I found her st hk crush counter in neutral very intentional specifically against zoners. After getting into the range for it and poking with it to catch a start up on a fireball
One thing i like is that some punish counters have special hits/knockdowns based on what move you used, like a specific heavy, so you only need to memorise your own character's punish counter specific things. As opposed to crush counters, where only specific moves were crush counterable, so you would need to learn or memorise everyone else's crush counterable moves.
I noticed this immediately in sf6 that it was an evolution of the crush counter mechanic, and thought it made perfect sense. I love it.
new video.. peak
My first serious Street fighter game is SF6 and punish counters always felt so natural and intuitive as a mechanic that I didn't even consider that they didn't existe in previous games.
Great video! Yes Punish Counter is what crush counter in SFV should have been. Actually my favourite thing about the mechanic is that it opens up different combos and situations, vastly adding to the depth of the game.
1:29 Jokes on you, british koeficcient. I've already subscribed
I love this mechanic. I'm playing multiple fighting games right now and there are two mechanics that hurt incredibly bad when they don't have them. The first is this, because it makes punishes feel like they matter. The second is dash block. If you play any game where you can run continuously(drive rush counts here), the inability to stop running is so painful.
once again, great analysis and well explained
Looking forward to being able to do these on purpose. Working on the skill now and it's so satisfying.
Sf6 was my first fighting game and I legitimately didn’t realize that this wasn’t a universal mechanic in fighting games
The capys are too chill to punch each other
Punish Counter mechanic and anything like it I.E Wild Punish, should be in every fighting game. I love it as much as Broski does.
broski's voice sooths my soul.
Punish counter is one of those extremely rare mechanics where I have not heard a single person complain about it. It’s the anti-throw loop lol.
So that means Broski loves the VSystem and wants it back? Baller!
hi Broski, i love punish counter mechanic too, and FYI before SF6 there's already a game that implements the same mechanic, that is DNF Duel (i love that game too, too bad it doesn't thrive)
there were others before that too
Yeah i'm sure there must be, especially if we're talking about the entire fighting game genre not just the traditional 2Ds :)
This just in: Broski loves throw loops!
Ive loved PC since launch I really do hope it sticks
I love that characters get better punishes on unsafe and unspaces things
Dhalsim mains are deffo big fans
As someone who never really played SF5 and only casually touched SF4, I straight up just assumed punish counters were already a thing in street fighter. Like it just slotted in so naturally I never even realized it was a new mechanic for SF6.
The best mechanics are ones you don't really mind when they happen to you. That's why crush counter sucked and punish counter is great. If you get punish countered, you just shrug your shoulders because either you know you deserved it because you made a clear mistake or you know you've simply been outplayed.
Played fighting games for years but this is my first serious attempt playing street fighter. Its so intuitive that TBH I was quite shocked to learn that its a relatively new addition to the series. When I got a handle on it I even remember thinking "Oh...so THIS is why this series has a bigger reputation for focus on footsies and neutral than any other series.....got it." Feels like it always should have been there for sure. Emphasizes grounded footsies and also adds an additional risk to reversal/wakeup options.
Punish Counter having moves that get extra effects is the same as Crush Counter existing -- certain moves give a bigger punish, a knockdown etc. if they hit under a certain condition. Except it's still better because you don't have to memorize the list of all the moves on other characters that can be countered, you only have to know the half that's part of your character's kit.
There is a lot of people here in the comments EVEN AFTER he showed SFV that really think punish counters aren't the same as crush counters.
Lol, they are near identical. Same crumple states, same big damage, same easy combos.
@@WutTheDeuceGamingsoon as you said same crumple states i knew you didn't know shit about the game. in sfv, the crumples made you fall to your knees, allowing for crouching only combos, regular dashes after the hit and much more leniency, in sfvi, the crumples are simply a small amount of time to hit the opponent and then they are considered airborne, combos are not the same or nearly the same in sfv and sfvi, but that changes nothing from the fact the mechanic is fundementally different. it rewards you for punishing an opponent doing unsafe moves, in sfv it rewarded you for stubbing an opponent before they hit you. getting max damage because you luckily hit your opponent while they were pressing a button is not the same as whiff punishing or punishing on block. one takes skill, the other takes luck
@@WutTheDeuceGaming Punish counter overall is nothing like crush counter. There are certain moves where you get an unusually large reward because they have special properties on PC. That is the part that's similar to Crush Counter, except it feels more rewarding while also being simpler, because whiff punish feels better than counterhit and also you don't have to memorize all the moves you can punish. Punish counter is like they took Crush Counter, removed everything bad and made it way better designed.
One other huge thing about it is it teaches frame data without having to look it up or go into lab. I know if I block a move and hit a button and it says punish counter, I know at least how negative that move is right then and there.
They remind me a lot of SoulCalibur6's lethal hit system.
For reference, in SC6, certain moves were intended to be used in certain ways. And doing so would reward you with a big flashy explosive combo-starting hit.
It's not as universal.. there was no non-character specific ways of triggering any particular lethal hit, and in typical 3D fighter tradition it was very knowledge checky and you would see moves you've never seen before used in unusual situations.
But it was oh so satisfying having the perfect move to use in the right situation. Like having a 22B which universally sidesteps opponent's vertical attacks.. and doing so gives you a lethal hit.. Or one of my favorites, Kilik's 4A which is just a quick low-poke to snipe people's ankles for low reward normally.. but do it 4 times in a row without the opponent catching on and now they get launched.
(Or sometimes they were memes used for characterization purposes.. Like how Raphael and Amy had ones which only triggered against each other for story reasons... Or Ivy's groin kick has a lethal hit against men..)
Crush Counters were just one reason of many that SFV frustrated the life out of me haha
Punish counters by comparison are easy to understand and (often) gives you a very cool combo
wow after finding out only 0.017321% of people watching are subscribed I had to double check to make sure I was subscribed and also hit that bell
I'm surprised that Punish Counter seems to have such a positive reception. I'm so used to people bickering at every new mechanic and design choice in modern fighting games, I figured people would complain that Punish Counters "make Counter Hits too easy to land" or whatever, but I haven't seen anyone say anything like that yet.
Punish Counters are unequivocally my favorite things about sf6 and the thing that makes playing other games the hardest. They just fit perfectly into the reward expectation system ingrained in me by every other game. When I was learning how to play fighting games because not many games reward you preemptively attacking (and if they do it's usually only with random mobs you can stagger out of attack) counters and not punishes giving you extra hitstun was weird, and since virtually every game has the "learn and avoid the attack pattern so you can be rewarded with getting damageat the end" reward model I thought that it should be the other way around. But I just figured that that it was balanced out by how the reward of punishing at all was guaranteed damage and you still have the big dp and super punish combos and everyone loves those. But punish counters just feel a lot better, and I think it would be really easy for someone to assume that they they were just a part of every 2D fighter because of how well they fit into that reward system. And the dopamine rush from a DP punish comes more from the starter you get to use because they're so minus that you can hit them with whatever crazy starter you want. I'm not sure every game should have it, but I definitely miss it in every game I've played without it.
Unfortunately, punish counters also contribute to what is unequivocally the worst thing in sf6, which is when your air to air is punishable on hit because they landed before you and now get to punish counter the move you hit them out of the air with. It is easily the worst feeling thing that can happen in the game and I think it shouldn't exist in any game. Yes, I have had a Geif player punish counter SPD me after I air to aired them and yes I am incredibly salty to this day.
Todd Howard's "It Just Works" describes Punish Counters ubiquitous understanding from the community.
i liked crush counters.
My favorite thing about punish counter is how it effects the learning experience. Any time my opponent does an unsafe move and I jab after, I immediately see the punish counter and recognize that I did a real punish. It completely takes away the constant guessing game of "is that move actually unsafe or did my opponent just decide not to block"
Imma be real, I was suprised to see SF6 was the first game to have the punish counter, it just made so much sense to me when I started playing fighting games with 6 that hitting a whiffed move or something punishable that you'd be punished more severely for it, really like the mechanic
8:50
Um actually I did think of it in SFV's 2nd season. I am waiting for my medal, thank you very much
The sound that ken makes when someone does a crush counter on him makes me laff
I love Punish Counters actually so much I wish more of my favorite games included them
That beginning part about "being very critical of things you really like" is very common thing in American men as well. We're often just socialized into interacting "negatively" with things we like or enjoy more commonly than interacting overtly positively. At the very least, it can be rare for someone to praise something without feeling the need to point out a spot for improvement
The punish counter system is a better reward for whiff punishing/solid fundamentals than crush counters. Crush counters was interesting at the time but in hindsight, it heavily rewards spamming certain normals that have kinda skip neutral with long range. Certain characters get to benefit way more from it than others. Its still like that in SF6 but more rounded. I think how far a hitbox stretches outward away from the hurtbox is very important but possibly overlooked. Hence, stubby normals. Then you have phantom hurtboxes where you can clearly see the model's limb overlapping each other but nothing happens. This kind if deception has been present since SF4
I didn’t get to play crush counter 5. I was a Gill main lol.
Removing close normals in the same game that they added crush counter was the dumbest idea, it made way more sense as an up close read you make with a heavy button than how CC ended up working in 5.
0:48 no it's the same for me, just want things to get better
PC is the main thing that I point to when people try to say SF6 has no neutral or doesnt reward good neutral, the mechanic in combination with extended hit/hurt boxes and longer whiff recovery make it very well arguably the game that rewards good neutral the most in the modern franchise
Finally someone talked about this
Ngl the way you always ask for a subscription in a new and funny way every time made me subscribe whereas people saying ''make sure the hit the bell and turn on notifications'' just fly right over my head
Don't have anything to add, I just want to comment for the myserious algo. I also love SF6 punish counters. It's a cool mechanic
Crush counters are cool, theyre like Blazblue Fatal Countal
I do have my issues with it (mostly in terms of block punishes with lights converting into pretty big combos if you're character has a fast heavy) but it is mostly a pretty great mechanic.
Im a big fighting game fan but a poor player and punish counters were so intuitive and made so much sense I just assumed they were always there. Great analysis!
I started playing fighting games seriously with SF6 and I am baffled that punish counter is a new mechanic. It seems as fundamental as combos - in my mind it seems like a standard mechanic that would have been figured out early on.
I believe KI has punish counter too. It's hype when the announcer just yells out "punish counter" or was it "shadow counter" 🤔 it was fire regardless
Honestly, my biggest fear is how similar fighting games are starting to feel on a game to game level.
As an Australian, the criticise it because I like it makes perfect sense. If I don't like something, I'm not going to be talking about it at all. If I do like something then I'll point out the things that could be improved about it because I want the thing to be even better.
I know Punish Counter is a good mechanic cause it fits so well into Street Fighter I forgot that it wasn’t there before
They were there before. He just showed you that they were there in 5, just under a different name.
@@WutTheDeuceGaming It was there but random
I think at some point everyone that played SFV though "why doesn't this(crush counter) happen on whiff punish instead" and I'm glad they refined it for 6 instead of scraping it completely.
I'm the same way about criticism. But people call that hating now i guess
I like that PC also discourages you from doing unsafe shit on block. Very clear way to teach people what'll get you smacked for doing
Fatal fury motw had punish counter since 1998
100% facts from broski
I really like the mechanic too personally
though i do miss that big ass COUNTER from strive 😔
I really liked stun in sf5. Wish it was still the same in sf6 and not changed to be a reaction check
nice 13:37 video length btw