Okay I made a hash of the conversions, sorry. Thanks for all the comments trying to sort out the correct figures, I think I’ve finally got there! So it seems the figures for breaking strain printed on the side are: 160.9 Kilo Newtons (Force) and 36200 pounds - force. Converting these to Tons (Force) you get 18.1 in both cases. So that’s 18.1 Tons (imperial which is mostly used in the States) or 16.4 Tonnes (metric, mostly used elsewhere) So slightly stronger than I stated in the video, hope that clears it up!
I hope you don't think I was being a smart ass but reading some of the comments was making my eyes itch. What you said was exactly right the load (force) the swivel will take far exceeds the chain it's attached to
We used to have a swivel, similar in design to the Ultra, and a short length of chain between the swivel and the anchor stock. Then, we dropped the chain and attached the swivel directly to the anchor, Now, we have no swivel and use a shackle. The reason is, I was always bothered by the fact I couldn't see what was happening inside the swivel housing; crevice corrosion, etc. So far, no issues. And, our Rocna self-rights each and every time we bring it up...so far. Thanks for your channel; we are enjoying your videos!
If you have no need for a swivel with your system and you have a good quality shackle then I agree, the less components you have to less chance of failure.
Looks like a nice Shackle. And in normal use will suffice. But we encounter situations that are not normal too often. I had a large custom made stainless swivel that was permanently on and she was beefy. Yet a group of 5 charter boats arrived when I was onshore and they tied up together because the bay was known for strong katabatic winds. That evening while they were all having dinner ashore the winds were howling and they were dragged over my chain and the force of 5 large boats pulled my anchor out and had me dragging into them. The charter guy came out when he saw what was happening and when I said they needed to move his reply was after dinner. As time went by the winds were now well over 30 kts and I was about to drag into them so I decided to move but could not because they had hooked my chain. After much effort in the dark, almost breaking my hand and losing gear in the process to free myself I finally managed to free my anchor/chain but my beefy swivel had bent along one of the protruding ends and the pin was broken on one end. A Shackle would have moved to the side of the anchor to take the load at the best angle. A swivel can not. Yes it was a large load and under similar conditions no swivel would have survived. With just a Shackle there would have been movement allowing for less load at the best angle not at an angle of high load at the weakest angle. I have a nice new swivel but I will never use it. And now I always use wichard shackles with locking pins so no loctite.
Not all swivels are born equal. I wouldn't have trusted my old swivel in the sort of conditions you describe. I'm am completely confident of this one though.
Weighing the pros and cons of having a strong quality schackel or a ditto swivel doesn't lead to a conclusive answer. You can go either way. But if you settle for adding a swivel it needs to be very strong, corrosion and wear resistant and importantly be able to move and cope with forces in all directions of pull. Especially sideways if the anchor gets stuck or to handle veering loads. Another aspect is the ability to inspect any corrosion or defects inside the swivel. And finally of course that the swivel fits and operates properly on your anchors of choice as well as on your bow roller and other arrangements up front. The Ultra swivel meets several of these criteria but to me it seems only designed to work properly on their anchor as the dimensions and rear bridge arrangement probably restricts movement if mounted on many other anchor designs. But my main concern with the Ultra swivel is the restricted lateral movement and strength even if the rear bridge is intended to provide additional strength. Also the inability to inspect the ball socket inside worries me with the Ultra. I think that the Mantus swivel is better on these aspects but it does need a cotterpin that requires regular checking....
Nice guide... I learned a little Steve! Being a racer at my routes we really only ever used the anchor to stop us falling backward with the tide on those breathless days (an effective method where allowed!)
Ha! you didn't employ the tactics of my youth in Greece then when we used to row the kedge anchors of a couple of our boats over to the really fast German boat (while they were ashore) who was winning everything, and pack their lazarette full! Oh and then tie a bucket to the keel of course!!
I replace my shackles every season with high quality shackles from a foundry here in north America... I would have to own my boat for decades for one of these to be worth... they do look nice though... And if I was rich I might get one but they are not a necessity...
Hi, I’ve had the Ultra swivel for four years now. It shows a lot of tear. I wonder if you have had the same experience. It looks like the “self righting tooth” eats the metal on the shaft. 😢😢😢
Hi Steve, in your video anchoring 101 you explained the advantages on the duplex anchor chain. Especially for warm waters. Why did you choose the Ultra swivel (AISI 316) and not (for example) the duplex twister (AISI 318 LN) from Ketten Walder?
That's a very good question. And the to be honest I think the 'Twister' from Ketten Walder may be the thing to go for if you are anchoring every night as we are. 318 is just the best material for long term use. However the Ultra swivel although not being 318 is very much overbuilt. it has a similar breaking strain the the twister 90Kn as against 104Kn, both stronger than the chain. The down side of 316L as against 318 is how it might degrade over time in warm salt water. Well if you were talking about anything that has welds (like chain) or that is cast, and therefore may have faults that crevice corrosion might get a hold on then yes 318 every time. But the Ultra swivel is milled 316L so I can't see it being a problem. But all that said the twister is an excellent bit of kit and I'd like too get my hands on one!
Due to sideways forces you should mount a shackle between anchor and swifel. The ultra swifel looks sturdy and has been load tested, but other brands maybe not.
It's certainly true to say if you have any doubts in your lateral loading of a swivel mounted to the anchor then having a shackle between it and the anchor to make sure it's not subject to those type of forces might be a good idea. But rather than pay for a second rate swivel and shackle, isn't it better to just buy the best swivel out there? Or the best shackle if your set up and anchoring habits mean you don't really need a swivel?
They are certainly Ultra swivels, not sure of the pricing though because it depends on size. We have the UFS 13 -60 , the 13 means Max 13mm chain. We only have 10mm chain but thats because it is Cromox chain and very strong. The 60 in the Max anchor size, we need that because we have a 45kg anchor and the next one down, the UFS 10-35 is okay for chain but not weight of anchor. Hope that makes sense.
FYI...the link provided to the US ultra west marine site says page not found. The European link does properly work. Not sure if the channel receives any kickbacks for purchases made through the links provided. If so, then they’re missing out on the US link purchases.
Thanks for letting me know. We don’t get any kick backs from it, it’s just for people to have a look if they want to. People always ask for a link if I don’t put one in!
@@svfairisle ...then hopefully Ultra sent you the anchor system for free, or at least deeply discounted, because the fantastic videos you created showcasing their products deserve some form of a financial kickback.
You know this by now, but it was a massive foot in mouth to say pound feet with no t and knowing lbft is a unit of torque and lb a unit of weight, just as kg is a unit of weight and not force and kgf is a unit of force just like newtons. You did this in two videos.
Well you'll only save £300 if you're using some old shackle you've got lying around! You've got to attach it with something! If you don't need a swivel, not everyone does. For instance if you don't anchor much, or for long periods, and your set up means you could get it on the rollers easily. Then a shackle would do fine. But not any old shackle. I would want something like this... www.ketten-waelder.de/en/nautic which is probably half the price of a good swivel but not for nothing! There's no need to spend money for the sake of it, but you do need to make sure yourself and you boat is secure if you're going to anchor out so don't waste money, but don't skimp on ground tackle either!!!
I have never seen the point of anchor swivels. All they do is add a potential point of failure to the anchoring system and provide little to no benefits in return. The fundamental mistake since an off-axis load will subject the cheeks of the swivel huge loads. So does the much advertised Ultra swivel solve this issue? Nope, As you have shown, it only articulates about 30 degrees, which, while it reduces the problem in everyday use, does not solve it when the chips are really down. Wait, it gets worse: The very ball and socket that allows articulation introduces a potential failure point. And the fact that the swivel shaft-made of stainless and therefore subject to work hardening and is torqued over the bow roller every time the anchor is hauled. Stainless steel is, more than most alloys, subject to strange and difficult-to-predict failures when subjected to repeated high loads. The Ultra swivel is restricted from articulating in one plane as part of its automated anchor orientation-on-retrieval feature. A “feature” that may increase the chances that it will be subjected to just the sort of loads I worry about-that's no feature, that’s a bug. Bottom line, I firmly believe that for those who feel they must have a swivel, the only right way to install it is with a short length of chain between it and the anchor so it is never subjected to an off-axis load. But in the Ultra’s case, this does not solve the problem because the shackle can’t be oriented properly. Now, at this point many of you are reaching for your keyboard to call bullshit on me by pointing out that you have used an Ultra swivel for a long time without a failure. And I’m sure you are right about your experience. It is all about Risk Analysis, that’s the point: Evaluating a risk by its frequency of occurrence, without taking into account the seriousness of the result, is a mistake. "The more you know, the less you need" Yvon Chouinard, climber and founder of Patagonia.
Well when i went through the risk analysis putting together my ground tackle I had a look at the figures for the best shackles out there & compared them with the Ultra Swivel. We have Cromox chain which is stronger that G70 so to not be the weakest link in my system the attachment to the anchor has to be VERY strong. So lets look at Crosby shackles as they are one of the most respected I think and already have several on board. Well the biggest shackle I could use that would fit through the 10mm Cromox chain is the 3/8th's I think. this is rated with a working load of 1 ton. they state the breaking load should be 6 times the working load so that's a breaking load of 6 tons. One third of the breaking load of the Ultra! The Ultra Swivel has a breaking load of 18 tons (which is in line with the strength of my chain) So the fact is a shackle would be by far the weakest link in my system. For most people with standard strength anchor chains, or even G40, the Ultra swivel would be by far the strongest link in the system.
@@svfairisle I certainly hear where you are coming from. Ground tackle can be very subjective. I’m not a fan of stainless steel, primarily because an anchors or chain made of the right grade of galvanized steel is much stronger, size for size. That said, there’s no intrinsic reason that an anchor that’s strong enough for purpose can’t be made from stainless as long as the designer and manufacturer take into account the properties of that alloy, rather than just build an anchor or chain in stainless that was originally designed for a stronger material, as several manufacturers have done. And stainless has the advantages that it sheds mud and debris more quickly when being hauled and, of course, it does not bleed rust all over the deck like a galvanized anchor will when it gets banged up, as it inevitably will on any boat that actually cruises. There are many things I like about the Ultra, a couple of things I don't. The attachment hole in the stock is only large enough to accept the pin of an adequately sized shackle or swivel. This is a fundamental mistake since an off-axis load will subject the cheeks of the swivel or shackle to huge loads. My vessel has an unloaded disp. of 22tons and have chosen a large single galvanized Spade S200 bower with 10mm MF DAMS Grade 70 Calibrated Anchor Chain and Maggi AQUA7 oversize link, hot dipped galvanized with Titanium pin manufacturer Break Load: 10mm = 12800kg. As mentioned my concern is the off load axis and the weakness there in of the Ultra swivel. That trade off for in my opinion is a big concern for nominal chain twist. At the end of the day we all must do what we feel works best for us. I appreciate your videos and point of view.
The solution you have is a good one with the oversized link in your chain so that you can fit an oversized shackle. But that's the only way to get an attachment that's strong enough to match you G70 chain. If you don't have an oversized link in your chain end as most people don't then I don't think you can get a shackle thats strong enough to fit. On the other points, the size of the hole in the Ultra anchor is easily large enough to accept a massively oversized shackle if thats what you want. You would have to use two shackles to have them the right way around, but if you're so set against swivels that's an option. There are always options available, and at the end of the day we all want to sleep soundly at anchor so it has to be something you're comfortable with. I would just prompt people not to stick with the old ways thinking they must be best. I thought that about Swivels v Shackles which is why I made the video. When I researched it I found my knowledge to be flawed. Same goes for Stainless Steel. Your first line is a good example of that... 'I’m not a fan of stainless steel, primarily because an anchors or chain made of the right grade of galvanised steel is much stronger, size for size.' I'm afraid thats just utterly wrong, but i'll forgive you because I might have said the same thing a year or so ago. When I researched it because I needed a new anchor chain I was pretty biased against Stainless Steel, have a look at the Anchoring 101 video. It was a chain that came with the boat, was 20 year old and was 316Ti. I was more than ready to write off SS as an option for chains I can tell you! Then I researched it. I filmed an interview with a marine specialist in materials and found that 318 Stainless is not only stronger that G70 but has a PREN factor so high that corrosion is not a problem for it even in the warmest water. So just because in the past SS wasn't up to spec. that certainly doesn't hold true now. Sailors as a whole seem to have extreme Ludite tendencies and this is not always a good thing!
@@svfairisle Agreed my friend, all good points for debate. I applaud you for your honest and thoughtful work. I am not opposed to new technology, quite the the opposite. As a performance cruiser/racer, I am very interested. That in my opinion does not negate the design flaws when dealing with off load axis stress. I look forward to meeting sometime and discussing the issue over cocktail's, should ever get out our way. Summer home port of Newport Rhode Island and winter Antigua. Jim & Gady S/Y Aurora
I haven't until now, but I'm trying one out in some different anchoring situations. I don't think they are something to use to increase ultimate holding (which is how most people seem to use them) But I've been persuaded to give one a go for some particular scenarios which I will have in the next anchoring video.
Age is only a number as Don said in our last video, and it's true. Jean-luc won the GGR last year, which is in my book at least the greatest challenge on the planet, at the age of 73. My father lived on his boat until he was 82 and would still live there now if his girl-friend hadn't tempted him ashore! Go for it, I take my hat of to you sir.
@@svfairisle Absolutely, and yet another example of how age is but a number, last Sunday at the age of 81, Aussie sailing legend Jon Sanders completed his 11th solo circumnavigation returning to Perth, WA on his beloved S&S 39. Not a bad record indeed.
I see the fitting instructions are a little woolly ("Apply normal force when tightening the setscrews") good to see that they supplied thread lock, I personally would have tightened them more than the allen keys used were capable of. Just my thoughts not a criticism.
It does seem woolly I grant you, but actually it really isn’t. You see unlike something like cylinder head that should be torqued down with a specific force in order to compress the head gasket enough to seal and stay sealed. Or the nut that holds your prop on which must be tight enough to have zero movement on the shaft so the thing won’t move & vibrate itself off. The pin on the swivel has zero loading. All the force is taken by the pin itself on the housing of the swivel. The screw is just stopping the pin from dropping out and apart from gravity if you have the swivel a certain way, there’s no force pushing it out. So I disagree, even a finger tight screw with red locktite is very unlikely to back out in this circumstance. And of course none of us would do that, we would all give it good crank round with the Allen key and that’s more than enough.
@@svfairisle OK fair enough, we'll agree to differ. On another note regarding the 90 day hassle we are all facing, has Italy any grace period for attaining residency or is it too late. Also was your passport stamped when you returned ie starting the clock? Really enjoying your videos - helping us to keep sane during these crazy times. Stay safe & best wishes L&A
@@leightonthomas8233 Yes they did stamp our passports. Not when we arrived, as that was before Brexit was implemented so we didn’t have to check in. But flying back on the 5th Jan we were stamped, so have to leave Italy by April. We are doing a section on Med issues next episode talking to cruisers in different places so we will find out more.
Be really careful about buying cheap products like this. Not saying they will be bad as I haven't seen them but you need to know where they've come, what they're made of & how they've been tested before you even consider having one holding your boat, and you!
Ever since I watched your videos on anchoring techniques and importantly anchor types I have been more alert to how far such concepts have been evolving. Just last week at our yacht club meeting we had a talk from a highly experienced sailor/member on anchors, anchoring, drogues etc. Now while much of what he talked of was in agreement with what you have shown/discussed I was somewhat interested in hearing his views on the merits of shackles vrs swivels and interestingly he seemed to still favour shackles and the use of galvanised components rather than stainless steel. His reasoning being and I am not necessarily convinced I agree with him was that stainless steel parts with movement and loadings can come apart and so hence your anchoring gear could fail, while galvanised parts over time will rust and so be locked solid. While the later is undoubtedly true, equally under some circumstances this could actually end up being a problem. I was curious hence on your thoughts re stainless steel re chains, swivels and anchors and whether or not you would agree there is a possible risk of such components coming undone over time or due to extreme conditions, movement and loading on the system.?? I also gained the impression he seemed to favour anchors such as the Rocna with its roll over hoop, rather than say anchors like the Sarca or even the Ultra which dig in on the basis that under some circumstances such anchors could dig in so hard that they then become extremely difficult to release, again under curtain circumstances. He also seemed to favour the use of the good old fashioned Fisherman’s anchor for use in strap weed bottoms etc. Once again in my limited experience I had to the impression that this type of anchor was so outdated and given issues with storage of it on a boat to make it not worth while considering. I didn’t wish to contradict him during his talk but I wouldn’t mind writing something up for our magazine as a counter point to some of what he discussed, especially in view of the advances in technology and testing that has been done on anchors and supporting gear.
I would have liked to have been at that talk! I think the only thing I would agree with there is the fisherman’s anchor is the only thing with a chance of holding in thick kelp. But as you say a bugger to store so you’re very unlikely to carry one unless you routinely have to anchor in kelp. Many sailors are stuck in their ways, the aversion to stainless is outdated, but that’s only if you’re going to make sure you’re using the right sort. If you can’t/won’t do that then there is so merit in sticking with galvanised components I suppose, but to do that you would be missing out, he shouldn’t try and make out it’s better, it isn’t! On the point of galvanised components rusting, well that’s just very ham fisted I would say. If you need something to stay done up then correct tightening and the right locktite is the way to go, not hoping rust will do the job! But in any case for the sort of applications he’s talking about ( a shackle pin) there’s almost zero load on the pin to pull it out of the shackle. All the load is perpendicular to that. In the case of a shackle the only twisting load is the friction of the link on the pin as it swivels, you don’t need a rusted solid unit to hold that tiny force! And if it’s rusting how far and how much is that compromising the shackle? With a well designed swivel like the Ultra the pin is captive ( see the hexagonal end) so it cannot be turned at all by a frictional twisting load from the last link. They supply red locktite for the retaining screw, which is frankly overkill as with no twisting load an no protruding part of the pin there is literally nothing acting to unscrew it.
@@svfairisle Hi Steve, Thankyou. I really appreciate the reply and importantly your knowledge/insight into this. I have to say, I am in agreement with your views, and your absolutely correct many older sailors are ‘rusted’ on to their old ways.. Hence, my reasoning by making such queries to you to confirm my thoughts. As someone who has only been sailing for 5 years and am yet to own a boat, I am all too well aware of my limited experience and therefore being open to learning from those with greater knowledge and experience. However, equally I am keen to learn more and importantly of advances in technologies. I similarly had some concerns re his comments on the use of drogues etc, especially after given the discussion you and Judy had with Don Macintyre re the GGR. Don actually gave a talk to us after the GGR, given Hobart was a stopover for competitors.
@@1240enzo Yes the Jordan Series Drogue has become a must have item for a lot of sailors for all the wrong reasons I think. As Don was saying some have it in the locker thinking it is some sort of savour when in reality they probably wouldn't have the muscle/skill to use it and even if they did, depending on the boat / situation it might hinder not help you. And as for retrieving it... well I personally know two sailors who have cut one away as they couldn't do it! But actually for a lot of people with more money than sense it's become the thing to have to prove you're an off shore sailor! These are the people who rarely leave the bay though so no harm done there, except to their wallets! If you look at the interview we did with Rob at the end of episode two, that's what happens in a storm in real life. He is an ex fighter pilot so used to tough situations and yet in that situation he hove to and battened the hatches sitting on the floor of the saloon. He was very clear that short handed in those conditions the thought of setting a sea anchor / drogue or doing anything on deck was not going to happen. I've watched people try a practice rig a drogue at the dockside and make a hash of it, it's not an answer for most people at sea.
@@svfairisle Cheers Steve once more. Really helpful information and once again it’s good to have your thoughts on this based on real experience. I know from own experience when crossing the Tasman sea back from NZ to Newcastle (NSW) after dealing for many hours with 45 Kt winds, 4-5m short spaced swells and bashing into on an angle that in the end hoving too for some hrs was the best thing we could do. The rest much needed. Even on another passage when we encountered 65kt winds and 5m swells there was never any consideration of deploying a drogue. I am sure they can have their use under certain conditions but that’s a deliberation one has to make at the time but equally there is the consideration of all the risks vrs benefits. Hopefully, i will never need to go there.
What’s good for the past seamen has always been good for me. When I lower anchors , you’ve seen that it’s shackled and the pin wired- and I sleep well. I feel uncomfortable with your swivel it’s possible weakness has to be what can’t be seen a small cap bolt and Loctite ... Jacktar
:/ But that is true of both shackles and swivels. One can get both of those with either just using loctite on threads or both of those where pin is wired. So do not understand your argument at all mate. For example the shackle shown in this video at 6:32 where the pin is NOT wired. And vice versa for example with Mantus swivel that pin IS wired. You seem to think that small wire is extra strong or something? The load is not on that anyway, it just needs some method to hold the pin in to not back out, as there is not any major force trying to pull it out in that direction (force on the pin is opposite direction).
No its definitely pounds / feet... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound-foot_(torque)#:~:text=A%20pound%2Dfoot%20(lbf%E2%8B%85,foot%20from%20a%20pivot%20point. Confusing I know. I messed it up myself in the Which anchor video calling it foot/pounds which is a unit of work. Maybe they should do away with the figures and just write on it 'bloody strong!'
@@svfairisle It gives the value in kN which is a force. The equivalent in imperial units is pounds force. Pounds feet would be a torque. Doesnt matter , it looks bloody strong! I know units for "work" and "torque" are expressed similarly but here its just "Force".
@@svfairisle Nope, the f refers to Force 1 lbf = 4.448 N is a unit of force whereas 1 lbf⋅ft = 1.355 N⋅m is a unit of torque. Pound (force) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(force) Newton (N) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_(unit) Handy Calc calculator-converter.com/tonnes-to-kilonewtons.htm Agreed it is bloody strong 16.4 Tonnes ish and there are too many f'ing f's
U say people still use shackles for anchor-to-chain because of old fashioned habit. No Sir !! People use shackles cos they're as cheap as chips. U cd buy 20 shackles for the price of one of your fancy swivels.
If you don’t need a swivel then go ahead and use a shackle, but you’ll need two for an Ultra anchor with a hole not a slot and you need top quality to get close to the strength of an Ultra swivel
In which universe does 36,200 lbs equal 15 metric tons? Metric tons (tonnes) are smaller than imperial tons, by about 35 lbs... Back to school for you. ;o)
You're right sorry flipped tons & tonnes. but the conversion is correct. Were not talking about pounds as a weight here it's pounds/feet & K Newtons, so torque. They obviously tested as a twisting load which I think would probably be a better test that a straight pull? it's been 35 years since my Physics degree so a bit rusty!
A guy I know where we live and sail had a stainless steel shackle on his anchor while he was on another boat it broke now his boat is nothing more than a 3 meter pile of shit washed up on shore broke the keel, smashed the whole boat he lost 100% everything so check those anchors all the time.
Okay I made a hash of the conversions, sorry. Thanks for all the comments trying to sort out the correct figures, I think I’ve finally got there! So it seems the figures for breaking strain printed on the side are: 160.9 Kilo Newtons (Force) and 36200 pounds - force. Converting these to Tons (Force) you get 18.1 in both cases. So that’s 18.1 Tons (imperial which is mostly used in the States) or 16.4 Tonnes (metric, mostly used elsewhere) So slightly stronger than I stated in the video, hope that clears it up!
I hope you don't think I was being a smart ass but reading some of the comments was making my eyes itch. What you said was exactly right the load (force) the swivel will take far exceeds the chain it's attached to
@@Div3r Not at all, important to get it right :)
Tech Corner is back! Yes!
All the best Richard.
We used to have a swivel, similar in design to the Ultra, and a short length of chain between the swivel and the anchor stock. Then, we dropped the chain and attached the swivel directly to the anchor, Now, we have no swivel and use a shackle. The reason is, I was always bothered by the fact I couldn't see what was happening inside the swivel housing; crevice corrosion, etc. So far, no issues. And, our Rocna self-rights each and every time we bring it up...so far. Thanks for your channel; we are enjoying your videos!
If you have no need for a swivel with your system and you have a good quality shackle then I agree, the less components you have to less chance of failure.
@@svfairisle agreed!
Looks like a nice Shackle. And in normal use will suffice.
But we encounter situations that are not normal too often. I had a large custom made stainless swivel that was permanently on and she was beefy. Yet a group of 5 charter boats arrived when I was onshore and they tied up together because the bay was known for strong katabatic winds. That evening while they were all having dinner ashore the winds were howling and they were dragged over my chain and the force of 5 large boats pulled my anchor out and had me dragging into them. The charter guy came out when he saw what was happening and when I said they needed to move his reply was after dinner. As time went by the winds were now well over 30 kts and I was about to drag into them so I decided to move but could not because they had hooked my chain. After much effort in the dark, almost breaking my hand and losing gear in the process to free myself I finally managed to free my anchor/chain but my beefy swivel had bent along one of the protruding ends and the pin was broken on one end.
A Shackle would have moved to the side of the anchor to take the load at the best angle. A swivel can not. Yes it was a large load and under similar conditions no swivel would have survived. With just a Shackle there would have been movement allowing for less load at the best angle not at an angle of high load at the weakest angle.
I have a nice new swivel but I will never use it. And now I always use wichard shackles with locking pins so no loctite.
Not all swivels are born equal. I wouldn't have trusted my old swivel in the sort of conditions you describe. I'm am completely confident of this one though.
Weighing the pros and cons of having a strong quality schackel or a ditto swivel doesn't lead to a conclusive answer. You can go either way. But if you settle for adding a swivel it needs to be very strong, corrosion and wear resistant and importantly be able to move and cope with forces in all directions of pull. Especially sideways if the anchor gets stuck or to handle veering loads. Another aspect is the ability to inspect any corrosion or defects inside the swivel. And finally of course that the swivel fits and operates properly on your anchors of choice as well as on your bow roller and other arrangements up front.
The Ultra swivel meets several of these criteria but to me it seems only designed to work properly on their anchor as the dimensions and rear bridge arrangement probably restricts movement if mounted on many other anchor designs.
But my main concern with the Ultra swivel is the restricted lateral movement and strength even if the rear bridge is intended to provide additional strength.
Also the inability to inspect the ball socket inside worries me with the Ultra.
I think that the Mantus swivel is better on these aspects but it does need a cotterpin that requires regular checking....
Shew - thanks for that - just bought a spade and an ultralight swivel..
Enjoy Cisme
This setup looks pretty sturdy!
Nice guide... I learned a little Steve! Being a racer at my routes we really only ever used the anchor to stop us falling backward with the tide on those breathless days (an effective method where allowed!)
Ha! you didn't employ the tactics of my youth in Greece then when we used to row the kedge anchors of a couple of our boats over to the really fast German boat (while they were ashore) who was winning everything, and pack their lazarette full! Oh and then tie a bucket to the keel of course!!
@@svfairisle no but thanks for the tips...sound perfectly fair and reasonable!
Very informative, I’ll be investigating
Thank you for this useful informations
I replace my shackles every season with high quality shackles from a foundry here in north America... I would have to own my boat for decades for one of these to be worth... they do look nice though...
And if I was rich I might get one but they are not a necessity...
Nice video, thank you
I have the mantus swivel which came highly recommended by another HC owner. But I like what you have there because it’s massive!!
The Mantus is a good swivel I think
Watch out for the port hole treatment I show in the episode that will go out later today. It’s a must for all HC owners I think!
@@svfairisle looking forward to watching it!! 👍🏻
@@svfairisle i saw it and I’m jealous of your portholes......and teak, and your beautiful looking sailboat 😆🍻
Hi, I’ve had the Ultra swivel for four years now. It shows a lot of tear. I wonder if you have had the same experience. It looks like the “self righting tooth” eats the metal on the shaft. 😢😢😢
Haven’t noticed anything, but will take a close look.
Hi Steve, in your video anchoring 101 you explained the advantages on the duplex anchor chain. Especially for warm waters. Why did you choose the Ultra swivel (AISI 316) and not (for example) the duplex twister (AISI 318 LN) from Ketten Walder?
That's a very good question. And the to be honest I think the 'Twister' from Ketten Walder may be the thing to go for if you are anchoring every night as we are. 318 is just the best material for long term use. However the Ultra swivel although not being 318 is very much overbuilt. it has a similar breaking strain the the twister 90Kn as against 104Kn, both stronger than the chain. The down side of 316L as against 318 is how it might degrade over time in warm salt water. Well if you were talking about anything that has welds (like chain) or that is cast, and therefore may have faults that crevice corrosion might get a hold on then yes 318 every time. But the Ultra swivel is milled 316L so I can't see it being a problem. But all that said the twister is an excellent bit of kit and I'd like too get my hands on one!
Thanks for the fast respons Steve! We will take it into consideration when making our choice.
P.S. by the way we oversized our Ultra swivel by going for the UFS 13-60 which has a breaking load of 160Kn so I'm very happy it's up to the job!
Good info.
Due to sideways forces you should mount a shackle between anchor and swifel. The ultra swifel looks sturdy and has been load tested, but other brands maybe not.
It's certainly true to say if you have any doubts in your lateral loading of a swivel mounted to the anchor then having a shackle between it and the anchor to make sure it's not subject to those type of forces might be a good idea. But rather than pay for a second rate swivel and shackle, isn't it better to just buy the best swivel out there? Or the best shackle if your set up and anchoring habits mean you don't really need a swivel?
Steve, I have found an ultra flip swivel that looks identical to yours on Jimmy Green site. Is that the one? Price £210. Stainless Steel.
They are certainly Ultra swivels, not sure of the pricing though because it depends on size. We have the UFS 13 -60 , the 13 means Max 13mm chain. We only have 10mm chain but thats because it is Cromox chain and very strong. The 60 in the Max anchor size, we need that because we have a 45kg anchor and the next one down, the UFS 10-35 is okay for chain but not weight of anchor. Hope that makes sense.
How do you get the pin out to discard corroded chain links and reattach if it's locktite glued?
Red locktite isn't permanent it's just a bit stronger than blue.
@@svfairisle Thanks. Love your stuff but you're costing me a fortune in upgrades!
FYI...the link provided to the US ultra west marine site says page not found. The European link does properly work. Not sure if the channel receives any kickbacks for purchases made through the links provided. If so, then they’re missing out on the US link purchases.
Thanks for letting me know. We don’t get any kick backs from it, it’s just for people to have a look if they want to. People always ask for a link if I don’t put one in!
@@svfairisle ...then hopefully Ultra sent you the anchor system for free, or at least deeply discounted, because the fantastic videos you created showcasing their products deserve some form of a financial kickback.
You know this by now, but it was a massive foot in mouth to say pound feet with no t and knowing lbft is a unit of torque and lb a unit of weight, just as kg is a unit of weight and not force and kgf is a unit of force just like newtons. You did this in two videos.
i SUPPOSE THE OTHER REASON TO USE SHACKLES IS YOU SAVE £300
Well you'll only save £300 if you're using some old shackle you've got lying around! You've got to attach it with something! If you don't need a swivel, not everyone does. For instance if you don't anchor much, or for long periods, and your set up means you could get it on the rollers easily. Then a shackle would do fine. But not any old shackle. I would want something like this... www.ketten-waelder.de/en/nautic which is probably half the price of a good swivel but not for nothing! There's no need to spend money for the sake of it, but you do need to make sure yourself and you boat is secure if you're going to anchor out so don't waste money, but don't skimp on ground tackle either!!!
Are you sponsored in anyway by ultra?
No, but I have a lot of their gear & get a good deal.
I have never seen the point of anchor swivels. All they do is add a potential point of failure to the anchoring system and provide little to no benefits in return. The fundamental mistake since an off-axis load will subject the cheeks of the swivel huge loads. So does the much advertised Ultra swivel solve this issue? Nope, As you have shown, it only articulates about 30 degrees, which, while it reduces the problem in everyday use, does not solve it when the chips are really down.
Wait, it gets worse: The very ball and socket that allows articulation introduces a potential failure point. And the fact that the swivel shaft-made of stainless and therefore subject to work hardening and is torqued over the bow roller every time the anchor is hauled. Stainless steel is, more than most alloys, subject to strange and difficult-to-predict failures when subjected to repeated high loads.
The Ultra swivel is restricted from articulating in one plane as part of its automated anchor orientation-on-retrieval feature. A “feature” that may increase the chances that it will be subjected to just the sort of loads I worry about-that's no feature, that’s a bug.
Bottom line, I firmly believe that for those who feel they must have a swivel, the only right way to install it is with a short length of chain between it and the anchor so it is never subjected to an off-axis load. But in the Ultra’s case, this does not solve the problem because the shackle can’t be oriented properly. Now, at this point many of you are reaching for your keyboard to call bullshit on me by pointing out that you have used an Ultra swivel for a long time without a failure. And I’m sure you are right about your experience. It is all about Risk Analysis, that’s the point: Evaluating a risk by its frequency of occurrence, without taking into account the seriousness of the result, is a mistake. "The more you know, the less you need"
Yvon Chouinard, climber and founder of Patagonia.
Well when i went through the risk analysis putting together my ground tackle I had a look at the figures for the best shackles out there & compared them with the Ultra Swivel. We have Cromox chain which is stronger that G70 so to not be the weakest link in my system the attachment to the anchor has to be VERY strong. So lets look at Crosby shackles as they are one of the most respected I think and already have several on board. Well the biggest shackle I could use that would fit through the 10mm Cromox chain is the 3/8th's I think. this is rated with a working load of 1 ton. they state the breaking load should be 6 times the working load so that's a breaking load of 6 tons. One third of the breaking load of the Ultra! The Ultra Swivel has a breaking load of 18 tons (which is in line with the strength of my chain) So the fact is a shackle would be by far the weakest link in my system. For most people with standard strength anchor chains, or even G40, the Ultra swivel would be by far the strongest link in the system.
@@svfairisle I certainly hear where you are coming from. Ground tackle can be very subjective. I’m not a fan of stainless steel, primarily because an anchors or chain made of the right grade of galvanized steel is much stronger, size for size.
That said, there’s no intrinsic reason that an anchor that’s strong enough for purpose can’t be made from stainless as long as the designer and manufacturer take into account the properties of that alloy, rather than just build an anchor or chain in stainless that was originally designed for a stronger material, as several manufacturers have done.
And stainless has the advantages that it sheds mud and debris more quickly when being hauled and, of course, it does not bleed rust all over the deck like a galvanized anchor will when it gets banged up, as it inevitably will on any boat that actually cruises. There are many things I like about the Ultra, a couple of things I don't. The attachment hole in the stock is only large enough to accept the pin of an adequately sized shackle or swivel. This is a fundamental mistake since an off-axis load will subject the cheeks of the swivel or shackle to huge loads.
My vessel has an unloaded disp. of 22tons and have chosen a large single galvanized Spade S200 bower with 10mm MF DAMS Grade 70 Calibrated Anchor Chain and Maggi AQUA7 oversize link, hot dipped galvanized with Titanium pin manufacturer Break Load: 10mm = 12800kg. As mentioned my concern is the off load axis and the weakness there in of the Ultra swivel. That trade off for in my opinion is a big concern for nominal chain twist. At the end of the day we all must do what we feel works best for us. I appreciate your videos and point of view.
The solution you have is a good one with the oversized link in your chain so that you can fit an oversized shackle. But that's the only way to get an attachment that's strong enough to match you G70 chain. If you don't have an oversized link in your chain end as most people don't then I don't think you can get a shackle thats strong enough to fit. On the other points, the size of the hole in the Ultra anchor is easily large enough to accept a massively oversized shackle if thats what you want. You would have to use two shackles to have them the right way around, but if you're so set against swivels that's an option.
There are always options available, and at the end of the day we all want to sleep soundly at anchor so it has to be something you're comfortable with. I would just prompt people not to stick with the old ways thinking they must be best. I thought that about Swivels v Shackles which is why I made the video. When I researched it I found my knowledge to be flawed. Same goes for Stainless Steel. Your first line is a good example of that... 'I’m not a fan of stainless steel, primarily because an anchors or chain made of the right grade of galvanised steel is much stronger, size for size.' I'm afraid thats just utterly wrong, but i'll forgive you because I might have said the same thing a year or so ago. When I researched it because I needed a new anchor chain I was pretty biased against Stainless Steel, have a look at the Anchoring 101 video. It was a chain that came with the boat, was 20 year old and was 316Ti. I was more than ready to write off SS as an option for chains I can tell you! Then I researched it. I filmed an interview with a marine specialist in materials and found that 318 Stainless is not only stronger that G70 but has a PREN factor so high that corrosion is not a problem for it even in the warmest water. So just because in the past SS wasn't up to spec. that certainly doesn't hold true now.
Sailors as a whole seem to have extreme Ludite tendencies and this is not always a good thing!
@@svfairisle Agreed my friend, all good points for debate. I applaud you for your honest and thoughtful work. I am not opposed to new technology, quite the the opposite. As a performance cruiser/racer, I am very interested. That in my opinion does not negate the design flaws when dealing with off load axis stress. I look forward to meeting sometime and discussing the issue over cocktail's, should ever get out our way. Summer home port of Newport Rhode Island and winter Antigua. Jim & Gady S/Y Aurora
Now THAT's a plan! First to have an anchor problem buys the drinks!!!
Do you use a sentinel?
I haven't until now, but I'm trying one out in some different anchoring situations. I don't think they are something to use to increase ultimate holding (which is how most people seem to use them) But I've been persuaded to give one a go for some particular scenarios which I will have in the next anchoring video.
@@svfairisle I'm starting live aboard sailing at 72. Cheers Gray Australia
Age is only a number as Don said in our last video, and it's true. Jean-luc won the GGR last year, which is in my book at least the greatest challenge on the planet, at the age of 73. My father lived on his boat until he was 82 and would still live there now if his girl-friend hadn't tempted him ashore! Go for it, I take my hat of to you sir.
@@svfairisle thank you!
@@svfairisle Absolutely, and yet another example of how age is but a number, last Sunday at the age of 81, Aussie sailing legend Jon Sanders completed his 11th solo circumnavigation returning to Perth, WA on his beloved S&S 39. Not a bad record indeed.
I see the fitting instructions are a little woolly ("Apply normal force when tightening the setscrews") good to see that they supplied thread lock, I personally would have tightened them more than the allen keys used were capable of. Just my thoughts not a criticism.
It does seem woolly I grant you, but actually it really isn’t. You see unlike something like cylinder head that should be torqued down with a specific force in order to compress the head gasket enough to seal and stay sealed. Or the nut that holds your prop on which must be tight enough to have zero movement on the shaft so the thing won’t move & vibrate itself off. The pin on the swivel has zero loading. All the force is taken by the pin itself on the housing of the swivel. The screw is just stopping the pin from dropping out and apart from gravity if you have the swivel a certain way, there’s no force pushing it out. So I disagree, even a finger tight screw with red locktite is very unlikely to back out in this circumstance. And of course none of us would do that, we would all give it good crank round with the Allen key and that’s more than enough.
@@svfairisle OK fair enough, we'll agree to differ. On another note regarding the 90 day hassle we are all facing, has Italy any grace period for attaining residency or is it too late. Also was your passport stamped when you returned ie starting the clock? Really enjoying your videos - helping us to keep sane during these crazy times.
Stay safe & best wishes L&A
@@leightonthomas8233 Yes they did stamp our passports. Not when we arrived, as that was before Brexit was implemented so we didn’t have to check in. But flying back on the 5th Jan we were stamped, so have to leave Italy by April. We are doing a section on Med issues next episode talking to cruisers in different places so we will find out more.
Lekker man lekker
We're honoured to get a lekker for even a technical video! Thanks Gerhard.
This product is so expensive , looked at others with 3 way swivel quarter of the price .
Be really careful about buying cheap products like this. Not saying they will be bad as I haven't seen them but you need to know where they've come, what they're made of & how they've been tested before you even consider having one holding your boat, and you!
Ever since I watched your videos on anchoring techniques and importantly anchor types I have been more alert to how far such concepts have been evolving. Just last week at our yacht club meeting we had a talk from a highly experienced sailor/member on anchors, anchoring, drogues etc. Now while much of what he talked of was in agreement with what you have shown/discussed I was somewhat interested in hearing his views on the merits of shackles vrs swivels and interestingly he seemed to still favour shackles and the use of galvanised components rather than stainless steel. His reasoning being and I am not necessarily convinced I agree with him was that stainless steel parts with movement and loadings can come apart and so hence your anchoring gear could fail, while galvanised parts over time will rust and so be locked solid. While the later is undoubtedly true, equally under some circumstances this could actually end up being a problem. I was curious hence on your thoughts re stainless steel re chains, swivels and anchors and whether or not you would agree there is a possible risk of such components coming undone over time or due to extreme conditions, movement and loading on the system.??
I also gained the impression he seemed to favour anchors such as the Rocna with its roll over hoop, rather than say anchors like the Sarca or even the Ultra which dig in on the basis that under some circumstances such anchors could dig in so hard that they then become extremely difficult to release, again under curtain circumstances. He also seemed to favour the use of the good old fashioned Fisherman’s anchor for use in strap weed bottoms etc. Once again in my limited experience I had to the impression that this type of anchor was so outdated and given issues with storage of it on a boat to make it not worth while considering. I didn’t wish to contradict him during his talk but I wouldn’t mind writing something up for our magazine as a counter point to some of what he discussed, especially in view of the advances in technology and testing that has been done on anchors and supporting gear.
I would have liked to have been at that talk! I think the only thing I would agree with there is the fisherman’s anchor is the only thing with a chance of holding in thick kelp. But as you say a bugger to store so you’re very unlikely to carry one unless you routinely have to anchor in kelp. Many sailors are stuck in their ways, the aversion to stainless is outdated, but that’s only if you’re going to make sure you’re using the right sort. If you can’t/won’t do that then there is so merit in sticking with galvanised components I suppose, but to do that you would be missing out, he shouldn’t try and make out it’s better, it isn’t! On the point of galvanised components rusting, well that’s just very ham fisted I would say. If you need something to stay done up then correct tightening and the right locktite is the way to go, not hoping rust will do the job! But in any case for the sort of applications he’s talking about ( a shackle pin) there’s almost zero load on the pin to pull it out of the shackle. All the load is perpendicular to that. In the case of a shackle the only twisting load is the friction of the link on the pin as it swivels, you don’t need a rusted solid unit to hold that tiny force! And if it’s rusting how far and how much is that compromising the shackle? With a well designed swivel like the Ultra the pin is captive ( see the hexagonal end) so it cannot be turned at all by a frictional twisting load from the last link. They supply red locktite for the retaining screw, which is frankly overkill as with no twisting load an no protruding part of the pin there is literally nothing acting to unscrew it.
@@svfairisle Hi Steve, Thankyou. I really appreciate the reply and importantly your knowledge/insight into this. I have to say, I am in agreement with your views, and your absolutely correct many older sailors are ‘rusted’ on to their old ways.. Hence, my reasoning by making such queries to you to confirm my thoughts. As someone who has only been sailing for 5 years and am yet to own a boat, I am all too well aware of my limited experience and therefore being open to learning from those with greater knowledge and experience. However, equally I am keen to learn more and importantly of advances in technologies.
I similarly had some concerns re his comments on the use of drogues etc, especially after given the discussion you and Judy had with Don Macintyre re the GGR. Don actually gave a talk to us after the GGR, given Hobart was a stopover for competitors.
@@1240enzo Yes the Jordan Series Drogue has become a must have item for a lot of sailors for all the wrong reasons I think. As Don was saying some have it in the locker thinking it is some sort of savour when in reality they probably wouldn't have the muscle/skill to use it and even if they did, depending on the boat / situation it might hinder not help you. And as for retrieving it... well I personally know two sailors who have cut one away as they couldn't do it! But actually for a lot of people with more money than sense it's become the thing to have to prove you're an off shore sailor! These are the people who rarely leave the bay though so no harm done there, except to their wallets! If you look at the interview we did with Rob at the end of episode two, that's what happens in a storm in real life. He is an ex fighter pilot so used to tough situations and yet in that situation he hove to and battened the hatches sitting on the floor of the saloon. He was very clear that short handed in those conditions the thought of setting a sea anchor / drogue or doing anything on deck was not going to happen. I've watched people try a practice rig a drogue at the dockside and make a hash of it, it's not an answer for most people at sea.
@@svfairisle Cheers Steve once more. Really helpful information and once again it’s good to have your thoughts on this based on real experience. I know from own experience when crossing the Tasman sea back from NZ to Newcastle (NSW) after dealing for many hours with 45 Kt winds, 4-5m short spaced swells and bashing into on an angle that in the end hoving too for some hrs was the best thing we could do. The rest much needed. Even on another passage when we encountered 65kt winds and 5m swells there was never any consideration of deploying a drogue. I am sure they can have their use under certain conditions but that’s a deliberation one has to make at the time but equally there is the consideration of all the risks vrs benefits. Hopefully, i will never need to go there.
What’s good for the past seamen has always been good for me. When I lower anchors , you’ve seen that it’s shackled and the pin wired- and I sleep well. I feel uncomfortable with your swivel it’s possible weakness has to be what can’t be seen a small cap bolt and Loctite ... Jacktar
:/ But that is true of both shackles and swivels. One can get both of those with either just using loctite on threads or both of those where pin is wired. So do not understand your argument at all mate. For example the shackle shown in this video at 6:32 where the pin is NOT wired. And vice versa for example with Mantus swivel that pin IS wired. You seem to think that small wire is extra strong or something? The load is not on that anyway, it just needs some method to hold the pin in to not back out, as there is not any major force trying to pull it out in that direction (force on the pin is opposite direction).
😊😊
lbf is pounds force ( not feet) I think.
No its definitely pounds / feet... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound-foot_(torque)#:~:text=A%20pound%2Dfoot%20(lbf%E2%8B%85,foot%20from%20a%20pivot%20point.
Confusing I know. I messed it up myself in the Which anchor video calling it foot/pounds which is a unit of work. Maybe they should do away with the figures and just write on it 'bloody strong!'
@@svfairisle It gives the value in kN which is a force. The equivalent in imperial units is pounds force. Pounds feet would be a torque. Doesnt matter , it looks bloody strong! I know units for "work" and "torque" are expressed similarly but here its just "Force".
@@svfairisle Nope, the f refers to Force 1 lbf = 4.448 N is a unit of force whereas 1 lbf⋅ft = 1.355 N⋅m is a unit of torque.
Pound (force) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(force)
Newton (N) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_(unit)
Handy Calc calculator-converter.com/tonnes-to-kilonewtons.htm
Agreed it is bloody strong 16.4 Tonnes ish and there are too many f'ing f's
@@Div3r think I’ve finally sorted myself out! See the pinned comment
@@taxirock90 yes my mistake, I think I’ve finally sorted myself out! See the pinned comment
If you can afford nearly a £1000 pounds for such a small item then why not, but what about us poor sailors!!
U say people still use shackles for anchor-to-chain because of old fashioned habit. No Sir !! People use shackles cos they're as cheap as chips. U cd buy 20 shackles for the price of one of your fancy swivels.
If you don’t need a swivel then go ahead and use a shackle, but you’ll need two for an Ultra anchor with a hole not a slot and you need top quality to get close to the strength of an Ultra swivel
In which universe does 36,200 lbs equal 15 metric tons? Metric tons (tonnes) are smaller than imperial tons, by about 35 lbs... Back to school for you. ;o)
You're right sorry flipped tons & tonnes. but the conversion is correct. Were not talking about pounds as a weight here it's pounds/feet & K Newtons, so torque. They obviously tested as a twisting load which I think would probably be a better test that a straight pull? it's been 35 years since my Physics degree so a bit rusty!
@@svfairisle kN is a force not a torque ;-)
@@youtoo2466 see the pinned comment, I THINK I finally got there!
A guy I know where we live and sail had a stainless steel shackle on his anchor while he was on another boat it broke now his boat is nothing more than a 3 meter pile of shit washed up on shore broke the keel, smashed the whole boat he lost 100% everything so check those anchors all the time.
Yes, dont by crap shackles or swivels!
Ultra anchor with their swivel is hands down the best solution on the market today!....what’s on you bow?