Frustrated User Guide: Backup Power Project E1 - Well Pump
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Thinking about battery backup power for your well pump? We installed our backup power system, winter 2015, and you can easily do the same, summer 2022, for less than $500. In this video, I show you how battery backup power works and explain everything you need to know to put together your own system, from parts that you can buy locally, right now, today...
Other episodes in the Backup Power Project:
1. Well Pump (6/10/22)
2. Battery Maintainer Upgrade (7/28/22)
3. Hazard Fraught Solar Upgrade (7/13/22)
4. Hazard Free (Off Grid) Solar Upgrade (9/2/22)
5. USB Charger Upgrade (7/14/22)
6. Solar Direct Charging Secrets (7/31/22)
7. Hazard Fraught Inverter Upgrade (9/6/22)
8. Dissimilar Battery Upgrade (10-7-22)
9.
10. Laundry Room (3-23-23)
#FrustratedUserGuide #backuppower #diy #howto #guide #inverter #teotwawki #preppingonabudget #prepping #poweroutages #griddown #selfsufficiency #wellpump #jetpump
Took the inverter to an electrical supply and they looked at the socket and said they'd never seen anything like it. Called a second electrician, he looked at it and said the same. Then he called me the next day, and had figured it out by studying the pictures he took of it. Anyway, the "look" of the socket was confusing to these folks. Hooked it up yesterday, Sun was out.....Worked like a champ. Thank you so much for your advice. I would never have tried this on my own. Your videos are OUTSTANDING!
Thanks again.
Wow, this was super informative and helpful. I am thinking of doing this.
My sine wave inverter will only allow my pump to deplete the batteries to 50% so the alarm comes on at 11.7 volts. Therefore my 120 minute reserve battery is really only 60 minutes.
Thanks for reminding me about the 1/0 wire I need to upgrade since I'm using 4 gauge.
You can buy inverter chargers cheaply if you want to charge the battery and have it ready to go
Problem is, the $130 Harbor Freight inverters shown in this episode are the ONLY inverters I've tried to date that can actually run my well pump. Much more expensive inverters can not. That's the subject of Backup Power Project Episode 7, Hazard Fraught Inverter Upgrade. Despite their low price, both of the HF 2000/4000 modified sine wave inverters shown here can run my well pump, my gas furnace, and my Whirlpool washing machine but neither can run my Whirlpool gas dryer (draws close to 5K peak inrush Watts). So yes, I would like a more powerful inverter that can run my clothes dryer as well (the subject of Episode 10, Laundry Room), but what inverter can do that? Ask the inverter manufacturers and they tell you to ask Whirlpool. Ask Whirlpool, and they tell you to ask the inverter manufacturers. Rightly so! Regarding a better way to keep the backup batteries charged even in a prolonged power failure, that's the subject of Backup Power Project Episodes 2, 3, and 4. Episode 4 shows the best way to accomplish that, IMHO. I continue to be amazed at how well that solution works. Thanks for commenting! Comments and likes really help the channel...
@@LawrencePina if you want any recommendations for the future go with victory energy as the inverters from them contain a transformer to help them cope with high loads
Do you mean Victron Energy? Their inverters cost a fortune, at least twice as much as my whole system! Who's going to risk that much money for something that may not work? Not me!
@@LawrencePina they are cheaper from industrial electrical supply places but there very cheap for smaller ones the night cost ones are like 10000kw
That pump motor isn't going to like that modified sine power very much.
I put this backup power system together in 2015. Since then, it's been tested quarterly and used sparingly. The well pump has liked that modified sine wave inverter just fine. On the other hand, I haven't had ANY luck with pure sine wave inverter upgrades. Want proof? Check out Episode 7 ruclips.net/video/ODuI1lfU7zQ/видео.html Hazard Fraught Inverter Upgrade starting from 35:30. I've even challenged inverter manufacturers to prove me wrong. Sell me a pure sine wave inverter that will run my well pump, run my furnace, run my washing machine, run my clothes dryer and I'll tell people about it! Not one of them has been willing to risk the sale. Pay attention to their ads. What do they show? Young people camping. Young people with a phone in one hand and a latte in the other. It's really pathetic...
@@LawrencePinaThe high harmonic content of modified sine inverters isn't ideal for inductive motor loads because the harmonics are dissipated as heat in the motor and it lowers the efficiency of the motor. This is true of ALL motors and transformers. I think a fundamental problem here might be buying cheap chinesium crap from Harbor Freight. Quality pure sine inverters from companies like Sol-Ark or E4 have been running entire house loads and everything in them including well pumps, furnaces, clothes dryers and washing machines for a decade.
I searched online for sol-ark inverters today duckduckgo.com/?q=sol-ark+inverter&t=chromentp&ia=web and immediately saw prices between $3,000 and $7,600! That's quite a bit more than the $130 I paid for a locally available inverter that's performed perfectly all these years. E4 inverters signaturesolar.com/eg4-18kpv-hybrid-inverter-all-in-one-solar-inverter-eg4-18kpv-12lv/ at least not the ones I found, are also in the $5,000 range. I'm just not going to pay that much, even if I could afford to, to back up less than 30A of common 110VAC household appliances. Especially when I know how well the inverter I already have works. $130 vs $5000 or more? Most people worried about occasional grid failure are going to choose $130. On the other hand, I'd be willing to pay a few hundred more for a comparable PSW inverter that actually works, at least as well as the MSW inverter I already have. I just haven't found any yet. Regarding the THD of my $130 inverter, it's about 30% under full load, the same as most 3,000 - 5,000 Watt gasoline powered generators. No one complains about those. Sine waves look about the same, too. So the system I have is definitely not perfect, but it is cheap and effective, and more practical in many ways than a gasoline powered generator. That's why I choose to share it.
@@LawrencePina If you want someone to "Sell me a pure sine wave inverter that will run my well pump, run my furnace, run my washing machine, run my clothes dryer and I'll tell people about it!" then you have to size it to run those things. These are whole house inverters to run all of those things and more. You can spend less if all you want to do is run a well pump, but that isn't what you asked for.
Regarding: I "have to size it to run those things" - you mean like this ruclips.net/video/FpybjEOK7-8/видео.html ? If not, how? I visited your YT channel www.youtube.com/@stargazer7644 this morning and was surprised to find that despite all of your criticism, there's not a single video there. Not one. Do you even have a backup power system? Have you ever published anything? Comments don't count. Let's see what you've got.
Thanks Lawrence for your video. I bought a Jupiter inverter and cables. I noticed that you have a plug from your well pressure switch. I currently have 220 wiring from the switch to the electrical outlet. I need to replace it with a plug that I can use with my inverter. What gauge plug are you using for the pressure switch? Thanks!
When running, my Goulds J04853 jet pump draws 9A at 120VAC. It's connected to a 120VAC outlet with a 16AWG power tool cord, rated 13 Amps. But given that your well pump is already wired for 220VAC, you really need a 220VAC inverter. There's no neutral in a 220V outlet. So, even if your pump motor can run on 120V, you'd have to rewire all the way back to the service entry panel. The existing 220V breaker would have to swapped out. It's a big job (for most people). If you scroll down through the comments under this episode you'll find that vincesmithh (smithh with two h's) backed up his 220V well pump last year. If you ask him exactly what 220V inverter he bought, how it's holding up, what connecters he used, I'm sure he'd be willing to tell you. So, look for a 220V inverter, but also keep the Jupiter 120V inverter. You'll want that to run 120V appliances. Once you add solar panels and a solar charge controller (another $500 or so for four 100 Watt panels, 30A charge capacity), you'll be amazed at just how much you can run off of your backup power project. Right now, I know you just want to run your pump. So, the first thing to do is find out how many amps the pump draws when running. That may be written right on the pump motor, otherwise you'll have to measure it. To convert amps to watts, multiply volts x amps. Multiply by at least 2. That's the minimum inverter wattage you're going to need. Note that there's inverter wattage and peak inverter wattage. Peak (aka inrush) wattage is generally twice the inverter wattage, but in the case of a pump motor, it can need a lot more. My well pump draws 4,600 watts when it starts! It's amazing that the HF Jupiter and Cen-Tech 2000/4000 Watt inverters can momentarily deliver that much power. Much more expensive pure sine wave can not. Suggest you watch ruclips.net/video/FpybjEOK7-8/видео.html Backup Power Project - E10 Laundry Room to learn how to measure all this. Measuring peak inrush is where to start. Good luck. Thanks for commenting. I'm happy to help.
Thanks for this vid Lawrence. My 1.5hp Jet pump is 230V 1.1Kw, and Max Load amps is 24. Does that mean I need a 6000W / 18000W inverter? Also, I don't have the inverter yet - how do I estimate the battery size?
24 Max Load (aka run) amps at 230V seems very high. My Goulds, model J05N, 1/2hp jet pump only uses 5.4A at 230V (or twice as much, 10.8A at 115V.) Please double check that. To establish inverter size, you need to verify both run amps, and peak inrush amps. The peak inrush on my Goulds J05N at 124.7VAC (our line voltage) is 38.03A. 124.7V x 38.03A = 4,742.34 Peak Inrush Watts. It's a miracle that Harbor Freight's inexpensive 2000/4000 Cen-Tech and 2000/4000 Jupiter modified sine wave inverters can start my pump, but as I've confirmed repeatedly, both models are grossly UNDER rated. One of the few times in life I made out from sheer luck. Now, I use a BSIDE model ZT-QB9 peak inrush clamp meter (about $30 from AliExpress), which makes taking peak inrush measurements very easy. Watch this Fluke video to learn how: www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/clamps/how-and-why-to-measure-inrush-current Regarding battery size, the Cen-Tech 2000/4000 owner's manual specified 100Ah AGM, so that's what I started with. Start with whatever the owner's manual recommends, and you should be ok. You're also going to want one or more solar panels and a solar charge controller allowing you to take your pump off grid indefinitely, should the need arise. Watch episodes 3 and 4 of the Backup Power Project. You'll be amazed. I was! And finally, consider asking you tuber vincesmithh (smith with two h's) for 230V pump advice. He's been there, done that. Just comment directly below one of his comments. Ask for specific info, make and model of his inverter, batteries, solar panels, charge controller, etc. That's how we help each other! Thanks for commenting. Good luck. Hope to hear from you again...
@@LawrencePina i see at 230v my pump uses 12amps. So to handle the initial burst i would need 230x12x3 = 8300 w.
230x12x3? Not in my experience: drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1aqdokhftf6qVynhrIq954TBouowWyrVj
Note that:
1. Goulds jet pump peak inrush is roughly 4x run amps.
2. American Standard gas furnace peak inrush is roughly 6x run amps.
3. Whirlpool washing machine peak inrush is roughly 3x run amps.
4. Whirlpool gas dryer peak inrush is roughly 8x run amps.
The red x to the right of the gas dryer entry indicates that neither of my two, under rated, over performing, HF 2000/4000 watt inverters can handle it. My mistake. I assumed otherwise. Now, I know better. It's best to measure! That way, when something doesn't work, you'll know it's because the manufacturer over rated the product, not because you underestimated the load. Please keep posting. Let others know what you bought, how well it worked, or didn't work. Your comments are most welcome. Sharing experience is how we help each other...
Regarding battery size: We now know that your 1.5 hp jet pump is a 2,760 Watt appliance (12A max load x 230V = 2,760 Watts). The question is, what's it going to take to supply that much battery power? At 12V, you'll need more than 230Ah (2760W/12V = 230Ah). More than 230 Ah because the battery has to power the inverter as well. So, it'd take at least a 250Ah battery at 12V. You'd also need enormously thick battery-to-inverter cable to carry that much current. Impractical? But at 24V, you'll only need a little more than 115Ah (2760 Watts/24 volts = 115Ah). A readily available, 24V 150Ah battery should be more than enough. Whether to put two, 12V 150Ah AGM batteries in series, or use a single 24V 150Ah LiFeP04 battery depends on personal choice, price and availability. Readily available, relatively inexpensive, 2/0 battery-to-inverter cables (www.windynation.com/collections/2-0-gauge-battery-cables) should also be more than enough to handle 115Ah. What about 24VDC to 220VAC inverters? Plenty to choose from here: www.aliexpress.com/af/24VDC-to-220VAC-inverter.html?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20230423074905&SearchText=24VDC+to+220VAC+inverter&spm=a2g0o.productlist.1000002.0 We just don't know whether any of them are any good. We also don't know for sure what the peak inrush of your jet pump is. If it were my project, I wouldn't order anything until I measured that. These are the best answers to your questions that I can come up for now. Thanks again for asking. Discussion really helps the channel...
Finally received my 220 inverter. Panels are up, battery and controller are working. One small glitch. Got the universal outlets recommended but Home Depot and my electrician don't seem to know what will fit. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Vince
It's hard to believe that an "electrician" could look at the 220V sockets on the inverter you purchased and not instantly recognize what type of 220V plugs would mate with it. Forget that guy. Try this:
1. Establish how many amps your well pump uses. If it's tank mounted, like mine, you can read that info right off of the name plate on the pump motor. If it's a submersible pump, located inside the well, and you have no info on it, then at least look at the double-pole, 220V circuit breaker it's wired to. Most likely it'll be rated 20A, although I doubt the pump draws anywhere near that much. Watts = Volts x Amps. My 1200W pump draws 10A at 120V, but only 5A at 220V. 5 x 220 = the same 1200W! 5A is very low current. Most power tools draw a lot more than that. To discover exactly what your pump draws, ask a helpful electrician to put an AC clamp meter on it. That'll tell you in seconds. Otherwise, check here: oakvillepump.com/blog/2021/3/17/how-much-power-does-my-submersible-well-pump-use
2. Search on "types of 220V receptacles" and then view images. That will give you an idea of what's commonly used on appliances like 220V window air conditioners and 220V workshop tools like compressors, table saws and welders. If your inverter has universal 220V sockets, then it should be able to accept all of those types.
3. Take your inverter to an electrical supply house and ask the counter clerk for an appliance/power tool cord to fit it. He's going to ask you "What size?" meaning how many amps and "How long?" If the amp rating of the pump is still undetermined, then get the largest size supported by the inverter. Hopefully, that'll be enough to safely run the pump. If the cord gets hot in use, it's too small!
4. While you're still at the electrical supply house, assuming you already have or plan to get a portable generator, get a twist lock plug compatible with the twist lock socket on the generator (They're all different!) and a 220v receptacle compatible with the 220V plug on the appliance cord you just purchased. Add an appropriately sized, appropriately long extension cord to the order and now you'll also be able to quickly run your pump off of a generator. Alternately, you may be able to get a generator supply house to make up this cord for you. But, they'll still need to know how what size, how long, and what plugs to wire on either end. Best to have that stuff on hand and get your electrician to do it.
5. Vince, it's a shame you don't live in my neighborhood. If you did, we could quickly get this done ourselves and while we were doing it, make a helpful video for Backup Power Project. Hope you'll repost to let everyone know what you learned and how everything worked out.
Tried to reply last month but it doesn't look like it posted. My electrician took a picture of the inverter. Two days later he came by with the adapter that fit. An hour later everything worked. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!
@@LawrencePinaA US electrician isn't going to be familiar with European outlets.