Let’s also pay attention to the inner work of being a music lover. I owned a JVC boombox in my college days; and through it I heard heaven. It wasn’t that the system was that great; rather it is that my mind at that time was open to music in a special way. Since then, I have owned much better gear, still chasing the feeling I used to get from that boombox.
"chasing that feeling"... of a long past experience? getting baked w/ roomates at a reunion back at the dorm? Disney Imagineering should be working at that for their next-gen (actually, last-gen) theme park; Boomer Land.
Yes and no. I regularly sit down at my fathers place to listen to records on his mostly vintage stereo system that uses a pair of old Fostex horn speakers that I refurbished for him. It doesn't even come close in detail, soundstage, imaging and so on compared to my much, much more expensive system, but it plays music in a way that makes you smile and want to tap your foot and that's good enough for me. In the end, you got to think about what makes you happy and makes you enjoy the music.
When I first became an electronics engineer, my immediate superior who was a year younger than me always asked why I needed anything more than a table radio to enjoy music and he was right. There was one big difference though, my underlying reasons for wanting to listen to music that had more inner detail, timbre, a soundstage and so much more musicality than just listening to compressed background music while I did household chores. It was like apples and oranges. He's a damn great engineer though.
Concerning this question I think the key word is "enjoy", to enjoy the music. I think if you don't enjoy the music you won't listen to it no matter how good the system is, and if you do enjoy the music you will listen to it on the cheapest system. But you will enjoy that music even more the better the system is. None of us started out liking music because we heard a great system, at least few of us did. When I was growing up I first heard songs on the car radio, first AM then FM, then I heard songs on a $100 "stereo". The music was very low end but I totally enjoyed the music because I could relate to it or it touched my soul in some way.
Jorge- I have a couple pairs of speakers that retail for well north of 10K, and they sound amazing, but- for many years I was limited by circumstances to a 1K (purchased used for $600) pair of Monitor Audio Silver RS6s, which I still have hooked in a secondary system of mine- and they sound great, too (albeit not amazing like my primary ones). I could live with those forever, though, if I had to do so. There are other great speakers for under a thousand dollars, new or used. Beyond the best of those, going up you hit diminishing returns.
I've often found myself realizing that even very expensive systems don't always deliver a superior sound. What makes the difference is the engineering being with great skills and high passion for audio fidelity rather than just blindly choosing expensive parts. I've also been blown away with relatively cheap planar earbuds or headphones providing superior resolving performance and overall audio fidelity than some US$100,000 systems. My original entry to high-end highly resolving audio started with buying some Stax electrostatic headphones decades ago.
True, quite true, what you say. In regards to headphones, though, it's a bit of an asymmetrical comparison to me, as I think that in one sense, a person typically gets at least 4-5x the resolution quality (and most other dimensions of sound quality) with headphone as with speakers of the same price, all things being equal. I think that with headphones, though, the tradeoff is one loses the sense and 'feel' of the spatial qualities of music that one gets with any pair of decent speakers, which I highly value. That being said, I'd like to own and use good headphones, but I have hyperacusis, which prevents me from that option (Ahhh, middle age!). Fortunately, though, I do prefer speakers, for the reason stated above. And in the case of more expensive pairs of speakers, one gets sharply diminishing returns by most standards compared with decent cheaper speakers (though it's ultimately in the ears of the beholder). My Vivid B1s, for example, which retailed for 15K and above (though I got bought my pair used as a third owner, with some modest cosmetic damage, and the line being essentially discontinued, for $4700) sounded much better than my Monitor Audios, which sold for 1K retail- but nowhere near '15 times better.' Not even 4.7 times better (using the used price I got them at), though they're certainly worth at least 5x as much to me personally, because I wanted those extra sound returns (albeit diminishing ones) badly enough. My other high-end speaker pair, also bought used at a substantial discount to retail, costs about three times as much at retail as the next model down in the line, but only provides about, say, a 20% in overall sound improvement in my estimation. But my audiophile 'madness,' which is considerable, led me to wait a few extra years to be able to afford the better pair.
you have to learn to enjoy what you have.. be happy with your current gear... always wanting to get better and improve but being able to just relax and enjoy your free music listening time with what you have today... most audiophiles just can not do it.
What is up with that monster driver behind you and why did you choose to show it to us in such a "delicate" and unobtrusive way? I speak on behalf of all audiophiles when I say: THANK YOU! Your videos are a blessing to the community and truly something unique and special. You have our forever gratitude! Live long and prosper!
I had to Build mine,got a little experience and shopped for bargains, took to studying, collecting ideas and coping the best, paid attention to the little details ,building my last home concert/extreme and just gonna listen to as much music as possible. My lazyboy trembles my arm hair stands up to the female Forte notes, more like a car audiophile system. I gave it my best ever rating,,,adequate.. Retired 70, disabled but not dead yet. Love your channel ,don't feel like starting channel, but I got history (50yrs)of true audio stuff.
I find as I age, there's another consideration. My 70 year old ears are no longer as responsive as they used to be, particularly at higher frequencies. I now need speakers better than my ears rather than the "best" (whatever that is).
Correction. The speakers with my Sprout are Elac Reference DBR 62. On sale at Crutchfield for $524.00. The cabinets are an oak vinyl but look quite nice. Other places may have the walnut but I think the grills are the same.
What I do really need is great music and recordings, enough knowledge (acoustics, technical reviews, basic physics and electricity, woodworking...) from book like "Audiophile's Guide" by Ps Audio, "Sound reproduction" by E. Tool, my own notes, this channel and other good ones, etc.., enough time and patience and a good enough system and room to start with.
Define "Need", Define "Enjoy"... Define "High End". I'll take an analogy from my Photography hobby: A good camera, Doesn't stand in your way of making great photos. The better the speakers, The better you unfold the components.
A beautiful explanation. At very bottom is the knowledge about accepted by ourself dream sound presentation. Above is satisfaction of possesing impressive thing which helps to trust to heard sound, even if it is not ideal . I often imagine how would I feel if the same sounds would be heard in front of realy big high end peakers just looking different And I admit it would be enjoyable .
I have a $500 tube DAC/amp. It’s not a tomahawk steak but it’s a small sized nicely marbled New York Strip. My tasty compound butter are my pure silver cables and awesome tubes that sweeten the flavor of sounds of my DAC/amp to my powered speakers.
When I first started out with playing records it was in 1960 & the sound I was getting was the best I could have at the time, but as time went by & the quality of my system got better then I knew that what I had before was not as good as what I have now, So now I'm enjoying the sound which I have from as far as I want to go, but that is my opinion & I can say that everyone will be happy with their sound quality until they want to go that extra step up the HiFi ladder.. & that ladder will never end. So enjoy what you have & never think you don't have the best because the best is what you have on the side of your head... We call them ears.
1. You can enjoy music on car radio but experience is different on good speakers. 2. NB: speakers are the only component in the audio chain which can affect the sound radiation pattern. Of course I prefer wide dispersion speakers (currently).
My current speakers are Magnat Monitor Supreme 2000, I paid £40 on FB Marketplace...no point in me buying an expensive set when I can't have them two feet from the wall.. Marantz PM7200 streaming Tidal/Qobuz/Spotify through a Wiim Pro, sounds decent enough for me 🤷🏻
Not everyone can cook but a great cook can come from anywhere. Remember Anton Ego ate Rattatoille at the end of the movie and dropped his fork remembering the Rattatoille his mother made when he was young... Ratattoille, a simple plain peasants dish. My studio is finagled for listening pleasure/music enjoyment not to hear all the tiny details. For that I switch to monitoring headphones. Or both headphones + speakers for total dimensional enjoyment. Increasing the number of speaker cones (from different speaker types) has really increased the dimensionality and listening pleasure, not detail but dimension. It feels like the music surrounds me, really fills the room and it gives me comfort in times of stress & duress which are constant. Employ audio technology to solve/temporarily handle(like a drug) the problems of emotionally trying to live in a world filled with too much technology, too much complexity, too much information. Sometimes you just want to relax and dig out in the garden. I play music also, in the studio on my synthesizers. I maintain, repair them and this is my enjoyable escape and what you put in you get back. I'm considering getting a second amp just to drive my other speakers at higher volume.
I have always wanted to down-scale my favourite PA system from the 70's A 4-way modular system with active X-Overs and 4 matched stereo switch-mode amplifiers. One could swap out the rings for ribbons, The flares for arrays. The mid-range amp for a valve job. Tune for taste. Experiment. You could go really nuts and add EQ and compression to the low mids for example. Half of what we do is trying it the equipment.
'ole Audiophile to Paul: The very first 'rule' I was taught as an audiophile was their finacial rule for a successful sysem build. It was pretty easy too, think thirds for the whole ball of wax. 1/3 for electronics/preamps & sources, 1/3 for amplification & one third for the speakers. If it's worked since 1973,, I don't see any reason to think different, here or otherwise. Surround's a different mule but stereo, there it is, plain & simple. Thanx
Enjoying my Fossi Audio V3 amplifier with Fossi Audio P1 tube pre amplifier. Generic 12 gauge cables and plain Rca cables. Bluetooth adapter. Sony SSCS5 3 way speakers on Home made stands. Total cost under $350. Sounds sweet. High end Audio for me. Lol
Do we need a Rolex watch to tell time? Do we need a pair of $1000 Italian shoes to walk? Of course not, but sometimes we just want (don't need) the finer things in life.
I would probably (within reason) prefer cheaper speakers and do an upgrade when there's funds for it, most speakers can be upgraded and refined for an acceptable sum. There might be a learning curve to it, depending on the circumstances and individual, but knowledge is an investment that keeps paying off.
Good sound doesn't have to be expensive. In the DIY audio community, where people buy raw drivers and try to match them up for their home made speakers; there are drivers that don't cost a fortune and can compete with other drivers many times their cost. But generally the higher the cost of the driver, the more you can expect from it sonically. Are you likely to get two $300 each midrange drivers in speakers that cost a few thousand dollars a pair? No. You will likely have to go much higher than that. For much less you can get good sound; but for speakers that start hinting at realism, you will likely have to go much more, mainly because of the cost of the drivers, and some companies are more painstaking about the quality of workmanship and lavishness of their cabinets, mdf itself is relatively cheap. Also some companies feel we should help pay for their research and development, and it is reflected in their pricing. That always reminds me of ebay sellers who charge lots for shipping, trying to rationalize it with citing the cost of packing materials, and when you recive it, the packing materials often look like bubble wrap that has been used over and over many times, and passed from a long chain of seller to buyers.
No speaker at any price is perfect. Wilson is priced beyond what almost any audiophile will pay. Priced out of reach like a dream. I've never heard Wilson, but I do not dream of them. Or dream of giving anyone that much money.
DIY, if someone has the skills, time, patience, and a place to do the work can be great. You can end up with speakers sounding 4X to 10X the costs of the components. But not everyone has the means to do DIY, so we are left with purchasing a set already done and hoping for the best.
The first "need" is the desire to listen to music, in a high end way, not on the phone. So much of this art has faded these days, what a shame. Just imagine if we could inject this desire into people. I am thankful to have grown up in an era where this was growing. Music was my drug of choice!
The main reason why you almost have to upgrade to high-end speakers to get something good is that many speaker brands make so many bad speakers, even if the price should indicate a slightly better speaker. You get very little speaker for the money! watch some videos from this channel and you'll see what I mean. (gr research)
Yes. I wish manufacturers, at least in the $3000 and up range of speakers would have model options that offer better crossover components and cabinet bracing and add a surcharge of maybe 20% to 25% and let the consumer decide if they want to pay that premium for better sound and clarity. With their ability to buy in bulk, I see no reason that couldn't be done. It takes just as much labor costs to install crappy crossovers as it does a good one. As Danny shows time and time again in this end of the market, oftentimes the manufacturers are leaving performance on the table.
IMO consumers first need to determine what their overall listening needs are (and work back from that) - type of music they listen to, what is their room environment, how loud do they need the music (if moderate levels like 75-80 dB are preferred then really expensive speakers may not be worth it), how is their hearing (at older ages high freq. response deteriorates), etc. The biggest issue about something like the FR30s is that they will play nicely and loud nicely, but if you don't play super loud, then you don't need something this big or costly. Then remember listening to levels above 90 dB too much can damage your hearing longer term. "Headroom" is nice for classical for example, but a lot of pop is compressed so less headroom is needed.
All you need are vintage Klipsch vintage loudspeakers when Paul Klipsch was chief. Klipschorns, La Scala, Cornwalls, Fortes, Heresys KGs, Palladiums and first series RF. Made in USA. Not made to maximise profits. And vintage Crown amps and pre amps. Also vintage Altec Lansings and JBL. Made when real men roamed the land who slept with their boots on.
The old Crown DC 300 compared to modern amps sound dull and veiled , I say this because I have done a few A/B comparisons number of years ago. As far as vintage speakers go, they can be great when upgrading crossover parts and cabinet rigidity.
That's an arbitrary number, but probably close to the truth. Anything much under that is not really all that good. Too many compromises being made. Especially if the speakers aren't direct to consumer ones, but rather have a lot of dealer overhead tacked onto their costs.
"Need" and "Want" are not the same. Do you need a Ferrari to enjoy driving? Well, it sure helps. You certainly want a Ferrari. But you do not need a Ferrari to enjoy driving. Also, not all high-end is of the same sonic quality. There is low-fi, mid-fi, and hi-fi. Within each of the above, there are tiers. For example, Vandersteen makes several loudspeaker models. Of the ones that are high-end, only the Model Seven speakers are at the high end of hi-fi. The Quatros, for example, are also amazing speakers, but they are not at the high-end of hi-fi. They are high-end speakers, but at a lower tier of hi-fi. So just because something qualifies as high-end, it does not mean that it will sound as good as it gets. I imagine that Paul would qualify his entire speaker line as high-end. But his FR10 speakers are not as high-end as his FR30 speakers.
Of course the FR10s aren't going to be as "good" as the FR30s. Good, better and best have been around as long as manufacturing has been. The idea is to sell to different budgets and make more money.
You can make virtually any speaker sound high-end all you need is get yourself a speaker management system active crossover, r e w on your computer and tune your room DSP.
DSP can’t change a speakers physical limits. What processing you do before the speaker output has absolutely zero effect on what that speaker is physically capable of due to materials and design. All it can do is optimise the sound for that speaker in that room.
The problem is sometimes the drivers don't reach each other in frequency output. No amount of DSP will fix a hole like that. You really need better drivers.
@@rosswarren436 I don't agree with that yeah if you use a subwoofer with a tweeter lol you might have a problem. you would hopefully that the manufacturer knows what they doing, you can use active DSP with the internal passive crossover as well. The frequency as I say would have to be way out of spec for any DSP to struggle, that's not a sort of speaker you want anyway, if it's going to be like that, I said a reasonable speak not a pile of rubbish, You're buying some Chinese $50 speaker from Walmart well that's what you get.
@@hoobsgrooveDanny Ritchie at GR Research has several videos where the tweeter does not meet the woofer. Sometimes with a LOT of parts he can make it barely work. But there are other times he told the person who sent them (not cheap speakers, but ones costing about $2000) to him to be fixed that they would be better off cutting their loses and just buying some better speakers. It depends on the design choices made by the engineers but mostly by their *accounting team* to cut corners and save on costs - like using drivers they have, even if they are crap, just to get some use out of them. You can work wonders *sometimes* with DSP, but you can't work miracles. You might make the frequency response halfway decent, but if the drivers are crap, you likely won't be getting much dynamic range from them and the speaker will sound lifeless, no matter how well you balance it using DSP.
i still enjoy music off my phone speakers even though i have a $7k system, and have heard systems up to $.5mil. i have friends who get into the music more than i do (sing, dance to it) that are satisfied with their portable jbl bluetooth speakers, they dont care much for the audio gear that i have. in this hobby you're just enjoying the finer things in life, it's not required to be engaged in music
Kind of like asking if you need to spend $100k - $250k on a car to give driving pleasure. Lot's of drivers love their used $20k sports car. But if you can easily afford it, a nice Porsche or Ferrari can be a fun hobby. On balance, audio is a pretty reasonably priced hobby. Golf, skiiing, sailing, race cars and sport planes all make audio seem pretty tame.
all my hobbies have ended end up "loading" my available play $$$ proportionately, w/ a correction for utility (can't drive my audio systems to Watkins Glen, etc). at some point one may face a determination to reach "fewer things of higher quality & pleasure". we are fortunate if we make it to these conundrums, while avoiding excess selfishness.
Great video. what makes a high end speakers ver "normal" speakers ? , The price ? how they look ? how they sound ? where is the "line" that beyond it - the speakers will be high end ?
Speakers Brands fail all the time to assemble speakers correctly. An example is a model JAMO speakers where they used around 11 parts in the speaker crossover filter but a company found that you could get a much better sound with only 5 parts.
Yes, you always need high quality speakers. Maybe the flight companies around the world should consider a better mic and headsets + amps so they can hear critical messages clearly from the towers etc.etc.... to me it sound like class B when they talk... not strange planes takes off when they should not and so on...
亞Paul,亞Paul. I am a diy this year ,I retired ,when I was young ,I owed B&W 801 "85 first released in Hong Kong .for me I like 音樂，come from they call Stereo HiFi.I have no money right now ,so I don’t care what they said Hi end ?cost no object ?but I keep trucking Audio Industry.I like the HiFi writer wrote the 美麗words
idea is that you need a good cook to have a good sound? what about the performance related to the price? is high end the only way to have good sound reproduction to enjoy the genuine sound of the recording or the broadcast? is high end having the monopoly of sound?
Well, I went from technics to Denon, from denon to Vincent, from Vincent to Sony, and today I have a luxman amp! What’s better than luxman?? 🤭….of course “constellation Audio”, but I would never could afford it…😔🤔
Jorge, just listen for yourself and buy what you like. No, you do not need high end speakers to enjoy music and you may not enjoy it any more if you had them. No one can tell you what you are going to enjoy so the only way to know is to try and listen to as many products as you can. If you go a friends home and he tells you his system is what a system should sound like but you don't like it then you know your opinion of what great sound should be and his are different and keep looking. Audiophiles are full of opinions and other stuff and should be listend to with a grain of salt. Sure, try out some of the stuff they recommend but don't think for a second because someone says they're an audiophile and they like or use brand XYZ that they are right or wrong. They are just people with an opinion.
You 'need' a good SYSTEM. Terrific speakers will show how horrible an amp or source is. Or are too difficult to drive by an 'ordinary' amp. I own a set of Epos ES14, witch i drove by a Naim NAP90 amp (2x 30W @8 Ohm). It sounded good... but upgrading to a NAP180 (2x 60W @8 Ohm) added more weight, slam, control. Just like when i upgraded my cartridge which exposed more details in the recordings that we there, but never 'got out' first. So do i 'need' the best speakers? I need a system that makes me smile, makes my feet tapping, makes me want to listen further and further. And if that can be achieved by a 3000 Euro system instead of a 5000 euro system: great! That means i have more money for records etc
doesn't mean there's no great, affordable speakers out there. A pair of Wharfedale Diamond III are much, MUCH closer to good high end bookshelfs, than to Bose 201's. Match them with a NAD C320 and a Pioneer PL112D with an AT-VM95E cartridge and you have something that truly sounds great. Is it high end? Absolutely not, but is it 'very good and affordable'; yes, certainly. That said, if you are on a limited budget, don't buy new, don't even consider it. Also don't buy vintage. The sweet spot is 10-25 years old for reliability and sound quality for a little amount of cash. Other than that, as Paul says; use your ears. Combine stuff until it's right.
What does dog meat sound like? I can relate to what Paul said even more than he does. Just the term "High End" has come to repulse me when I hear it having dealt too much with some people who worship it.
@@flargosa You just admitted in your statement, your so called "new sound" is music that you are listening to. Bottom line, you are listening to music. There's no way around that. You can not listen to your audio system and judge what it is that you do or don't like about the "sound" you are hearing without music, period. You are just perpetuating a silly statement that someone once made out of jealousy. Yes, some people have a problem with other people that have more money to spend on luxury items such as audio equipment. Are you one of those people?
@@patfrederick7327 Why do you let that bother you? Obviously, your statement tells us that you do have a problem with that. Who gives a rat's ass if someone walks around with their nose up in the air because they have something better than you. There are thousands of people in the world that have a lot more money than I have, but I sure don't let bother me. Who cares, so what, what the F***!
The majority listen on some portable device. I use my phone. I do have a dedicated home theater and a NAD Dali hifi but hardly turn them on. The phone, select RUclips and thats it . I hardly even use headphones with it.
This entire premise is kind of ridiculous. You can enjoy music on pretty much anything that makes sound, as people have for over a century on everything from a wind up gramophone, to earbuds, clock radios,, and car stereos, I try to avoid saying things like “most $500 speakers sound like dog meat, they’re awful”, because it perpetuates the impression that audiophiles are elitist snobs who just want you to spend lots of money.
Lousy psaudio speaker's 😂 look at Paul's theatrics. Psaudio has serious quality issues it's seriously spurious ..this drama will continue for a time till they will close shop for good. Audiophile please do your research on these products before spending your hard earned money.
Back at it again... I see you wouldn't answer some of my basic questions I asked you in my last reply to you. How do we know it wasn't your fault and you destroyed your equipment?
@@Mark-lq3sb it appears you are a proxy for paul. since you are such a affectinado for psaudio please send me you address will gift you the psaudio p10 on condition you pay for the shipping costs by fedex in advance. then you will see for yourself the quality first hand.
Sir, I've started a project of 5.1 HiFi home audio system with 2SC5200+2SA1943 MOSFETs based class AB Amplifiers. Specs: 100W RMS (5 channels) and 400W RMS Subwoofer. There is a confusion regarding the voltages though. The 100w / channel board is asking for 55 0 55 Volt DC. If I use 40 0 40 Volt (AC) transformer the rectified filtered (no load) voltage would be around 56V 0 56V DC. Full load voltage should be around 39 0 39 Volt DC. If I go for 55 0 55 V Transformers the the no load DC voltage would be around 77 0 77 Volt DC. Please guide me which transformer should I choose. I'm stuck with this confusion for a while. I have ordered. PCB. MOSFETs, Heatsinks, and everything else except the Transformers :(
i just bought [the last of stock i guess] of the q acoustics 3020's and they are on par with my more expensive kefs and all my bookshelfs. of course the kef comparison is subjective but the q acoustics definitely have great dynamics with my NAD which is a super rare trait for any budget speaker. i got the concept 20's coming as i got them for $249, last of stock as well im assuming.
paul is really pushing the product placement, lol which he should rightfully do as he has quality products but his definition of 'cheap' is definitely a hifi standard. i am one who definitely tries to go 'hifi' by way of the used market. and its totally doable. also i am irked by ps audio speakers having bass radiators. nothing colors sound more than bass radiators for speakers imo. and yes this is at high level of manufacturing but it doesnt make sense to me to go that route....
Let’s also pay attention to the inner work of being a music lover. I owned a JVC boombox in my college days; and through it I heard heaven. It wasn’t that the system was that great; rather it is that my mind at that time was open to music in a special way. Since then, I have owned much better gear, still chasing the feeling I used to get from that boombox.
So what's heaven for ya? Stereo imaging? Big soundstage? Clarity or dynamic?
I would say, all of it for me.
Excellently said. Sometimes I’m in “music heaven” while I’m laying down my iPad on my chest listening to music. I rest my case.
@@lights80088 lol for me realism, like the singer is singing right in front of you and speakers disappeared, also the air, is all about the air
"chasing that feeling"... of a long past experience? getting baked w/ roomates at a reunion back at the dorm? Disney Imagineering should be working at that for their next-gen (actually, last-gen) theme park; Boomer Land.
Yes and no. I regularly sit down at my fathers place to listen to records on his mostly vintage stereo system that uses a pair of old Fostex horn speakers that I refurbished for him. It doesn't even come close in detail, soundstage, imaging and so on compared to my much, much more expensive system, but it plays music in a way that makes you smile and want to tap your foot and that's good enough for me. In the end, you got to think about what makes you happy and makes you enjoy the music.
As long as it sounds natural and musical and enjoyable
I really appreciate your cooking analogy! That also allows for differences in taste in one's preferred recipe 👌.
I'm had my Polk Audio RTA15 tower speakers for 33 years and love them.
I really love Polk, they achieve so far above their price point
@@SpyderTracks They're connected to a McIntosh MC-2500 power amplifier, too.
When I first became an electronics engineer, my immediate superior who was a year younger than me always asked why I needed anything more than a table radio to enjoy music and he was right. There was one big difference though, my underlying reasons for wanting to listen to music that had more inner detail, timbre, a soundstage and so much more musicality than just listening to compressed background music while I did household chores. It was like apples and oranges. He's a damn great engineer though.
Concerning this question I think the key word is "enjoy", to enjoy the music. I think if you don't enjoy the music you won't listen to it no matter how good the system is, and if you do enjoy the music you will listen to it on the cheapest system. But you will enjoy that music even more the better the system is. None of us started out liking music because we heard a great system, at least few of us did. When I was growing up I first heard songs on the car radio, first AM then FM, then I heard songs on a $100 "stereo". The music was very low end but I totally enjoyed the music because I could relate to it or it touched my soul in some way.
I have a Sprout and Elac BDR 62 speakers. Wonderful sound, better than more expensive systems I’ve owned. Both sale priced. PS audio does it right.
Jorge- I have a couple pairs of speakers that retail for well north of 10K, and they sound amazing, but- for many years I was limited by circumstances to a 1K (purchased used for $600) pair of Monitor Audio Silver RS6s, which I still have hooked in a secondary system of mine- and they sound great, too (albeit not amazing like my primary ones). I could live with those forever, though, if I had to do so. There are other great speakers for under a thousand dollars, new or used. Beyond the best of those, going up you hit diminishing returns.
I've often found myself realizing that even very expensive systems don't always deliver a superior sound. What makes the difference is the engineering being with great skills and high passion for audio fidelity rather than just blindly choosing expensive parts. I've also been blown away with relatively cheap planar earbuds or headphones providing superior resolving performance and overall audio fidelity than some US$100,000 systems. My original entry to high-end highly resolving audio started with buying some Stax electrostatic headphones decades ago.
True, quite true, what you say. In regards to headphones, though, it's a bit of an asymmetrical comparison to me, as I think that in one sense, a person typically gets at least 4-5x the resolution quality (and most other dimensions of sound quality) with headphone as with speakers of the same price, all things being equal. I think that with headphones, though, the tradeoff is one loses the sense and 'feel' of the spatial qualities of music that one gets with any pair of decent speakers, which I highly value. That being said, I'd like to own and use good headphones, but I have hyperacusis, which prevents me from that option (Ahhh, middle age!). Fortunately, though, I do prefer speakers, for the reason stated above.
And in the case of more expensive pairs of speakers, one gets sharply diminishing returns by most standards compared with decent cheaper speakers (though it's ultimately in the ears of the beholder). My Vivid B1s, for example, which retailed for 15K and above (though I got bought my pair used as a third owner, with some modest cosmetic damage, and the line being essentially discontinued, for $4700) sounded much better than my Monitor Audios, which sold for 1K retail- but nowhere near '15 times better.' Not even 4.7 times better (using the used price I got them at), though they're certainly worth at least 5x as much to me personally, because I wanted those extra sound returns (albeit diminishing ones) badly enough. My other high-end speaker pair, also bought used at a substantial discount to retail, costs about three times as much at retail as the next model down in the line, but only provides about, say, a 20% in overall sound improvement in my estimation. But my audiophile 'madness,' which is considerable, led me to wait a few extra years to be able to afford the better pair.
you have to learn to enjoy what you have.. be happy with your current gear... always wanting to get better and improve but being able to just relax and enjoy your free music listening time with what you have today... most audiophiles just can not do it.
What is up with that monster driver behind you and why did you choose to show it to us in such a "delicate" and unobtrusive way?
I speak on behalf of all audiophiles when I say: THANK YOU! Your videos are a blessing to the community and truly something unique and special. You have our forever gratitude! Live long and prosper!
I had to Build mine,got a little experience and shopped for bargains, took to studying, collecting ideas and coping the best, paid attention to the little details ,building my last home concert/extreme and just gonna listen to as much music as possible. My lazyboy trembles my arm hair stands up to the female Forte notes, more like a car audiophile system. I gave it my best ever rating,,,adequate..
Retired 70, disabled but not dead yet. Love your channel ,don't feel like starting channel, but I got history (50yrs)of true audio stuff.
I find as I age, there's another consideration. My 70 year old ears are no longer as responsive as they used to be, particularly at higher frequencies. I now need speakers better than my ears rather than the "best" (whatever that is).
Correction. The speakers with my Sprout are Elac Reference DBR 62. On sale at Crutchfield for $524.00. The cabinets are an oak vinyl but look quite nice. Other places may have the walnut but I think the grills are the same.
What I do really need is great music and recordings, enough knowledge (acoustics, technical reviews, basic physics and electricity, woodworking...) from book like "Audiophile's Guide" by Ps Audio, "Sound reproduction" by E. Tool, my own notes, this channel and other good ones, etc.., enough time and patience and a good enough system and room to start with.
Great food analogy!
Great honest answer. Thank you Paul😊
Great cooking analogy, since a great chef can make great food with cheap ingredients.
Define "Need", Define "Enjoy"... Define "High End". I'll take an analogy from my Photography hobby: A good camera, Doesn't stand in your way of making great photos. The better the speakers, The better you unfold the components.
A beautiful explanation. At very bottom is the knowledge about accepted by ourself dream sound presentation. Above is satisfaction of possesing impressive thing which helps to trust to heard sound, even if it is not ideal . I often imagine how would I feel if the same sounds would be heard in front of realy big high end peakers just looking different And I admit it would be enjoyable .
I have a $500 tube DAC/amp. It’s not a tomahawk steak but it’s a small sized nicely marbled New York Strip.
My tasty compound butter are my pure silver cables and awesome tubes that sweeten the flavor of sounds of my DAC/amp to my powered speakers.
When I first started out with playing records it was in 1960 & the sound I was getting was the best I could have at the time, but as time went by & the quality of my system got better then I knew that what I had before was not as good as what I have now, So now I'm enjoying the sound which I have from as far as I want to go, but that is my opinion & I can say that everyone will be happy with their sound quality until they want to go that extra step up the HiFi ladder.. & that ladder will never end. So enjoy what you have & never think you don't have the best because the best is what you have on the side of your head... We call them ears.
1. You can enjoy music on car radio but experience is different on good speakers. 2. NB: speakers are the only component in the audio chain which can affect the sound radiation pattern. Of course I prefer wide dispersion speakers (currently).
My current speakers are Magnat Monitor Supreme 2000, I paid £40 on FB Marketplace...no point in me buying an expensive set when I can't have them two feet from the wall..
Marantz PM7200 streaming Tidal/Qobuz/Spotify through a Wiim Pro, sounds decent enough for me 🤷🏻
Not everyone can cook but a great cook can come from anywhere. Remember Anton Ego ate Rattatoille at the end of the movie and dropped his fork remembering the Rattatoille his mother made when he was young... Ratattoille, a simple plain peasants dish. My studio is finagled for listening pleasure/music enjoyment not to hear all the tiny details. For that I switch to monitoring headphones. Or both headphones + speakers for total dimensional enjoyment. Increasing the number of speaker cones (from different speaker types) has really increased the dimensionality and listening pleasure, not detail but dimension. It feels like the music surrounds me, really fills the room and it gives me comfort in times of stress & duress which are constant. Employ audio technology to solve/temporarily handle(like a drug) the problems of emotionally trying to live in a world filled with too much technology, too much complexity, too much information. Sometimes you just want to relax and dig out in the garden. I play music also, in the studio on my synthesizers. I maintain, repair them and this is my enjoyable escape and what you put in you get back. I'm considering getting a second amp just to drive my other speakers at higher volume.
Yes, an audiophile NEEDS high-end speakers :)
I have home made speakers. They seem well built and sound good to me.
I have always wanted to down-scale my favourite PA system from the 70's A 4-way modular system with active X-Overs and 4 matched stereo switch-mode amplifiers. One could swap out the rings for ribbons, The flares for arrays. The mid-range amp for a valve job. Tune for taste. Experiment. You could go really nuts and add EQ and compression to the low mids for example. Half of what we do is trying it the equipment.
'ole Audiophile to Paul: The very first 'rule' I was taught as an audiophile was their finacial rule for a successful sysem build. It was pretty easy too, think thirds for the whole ball of wax. 1/3 for electronics/preamps & sources, 1/3 for amplification & one third for the speakers. If it's worked since 1973,, I don't see any reason to think different, here or otherwise. Surround's a different mule but stereo, there it is, plain & simple. Thanx
I would say more then 1/3 for the speakers, more like at least 1/2 or maybe 2/3.
I listened to music on a JVC micro system for years and enjoyed it immensely. So no, just enjoy the music.
Rice or potatoes may be common or ordinary or humble ingredients, but they are not mediocre by definition.
Great Advice Uncle Paul!!! Ok I adopted U
Enjoying my Fossi Audio V3 amplifier with Fossi Audio P1 tube pre amplifier. Generic 12 gauge cables and plain Rca cables. Bluetooth adapter. Sony SSCS5 3 way speakers on Home made stands. Total cost under $350. Sounds sweet. High end Audio for me. Lol
Sometimes a decent pair of headphones might be a option, especially of the kids are sleeping.
Do we need a Rolex watch to tell time? Do we need a pair of $1000 Italian shoes to walk? Of course not, but sometimes we just want (don't need) the finer things in life.
Lol you better off playing with the positioning of speakers and tubes from preamp than buying expensive speakers
But that's just me, I'm just enjoying the process but not trying the show off to peers
@@MasterofPlay7Whatever rocks your boat, life's to short, enjoy it to the fullest.
what does "enjoying the finer things of life" have to do w/ impressing one's peers?@@MasterofPlay7
I would probably (within reason) prefer cheaper speakers and do an upgrade when there's funds for it, most speakers can be upgraded and refined for an acceptable sum. There might be a learning curve to it, depending on the circumstances and individual, but knowledge is an investment that keeps paying off.
Good sound doesn't have to be expensive. In the DIY audio community, where people buy raw drivers and try to match them up for their home made speakers; there are drivers that don't cost a fortune and can compete with other drivers many times their cost. But generally the higher the cost of the driver, the more you can expect from it sonically. Are you likely to get two $300 each midrange drivers in speakers that cost a few thousand dollars a pair? No.
You will likely have to go much higher than that. For much less you can get good sound; but for speakers that start hinting at realism, you will likely have to go much more, mainly because of the cost of the drivers, and some companies are more painstaking about the quality of workmanship and lavishness of their cabinets, mdf itself is relatively cheap. Also some companies feel we should help pay for their research and development, and it is reflected in their pricing. That always reminds me of ebay sellers who charge lots for shipping, trying to rationalize it with citing the cost of packing materials, and when you recive it, the packing materials often look like bubble wrap that has been used over and over many times, and passed from a long chain of seller to buyers.
Expensive speakers aren't always "perfect": Wilson Audio Duette.
No speaker at any price is perfect. Wilson is priced beyond what almost any audiophile will pay. Priced out of reach like a dream. I've never heard Wilson, but I do not dream of them. Or dream of giving anyone that much money.
DIY, if someone has the skills, time, patience, and a place to do the work can be great. You can end up with speakers sounding 4X to 10X the costs of the components. But not everyone has the means to do DIY, so we are left with purchasing a set already done and hoping for the best.
"And now you can jam" is how Im going to end every work meeting from now on.
The first "need" is the desire to listen to music, in a high end way, not on the phone. So much of this art has faded these days, what a shame. Just imagine if we could inject this desire into people. I am thankful to have grown up in an era where this was growing. Music was my drug of choice!
The main reason why you almost have to upgrade to high-end speakers to get something good is that many speaker brands make so many bad speakers, even if the price should indicate a slightly better speaker.
You get very little speaker for the money!
watch some videos from this channel and you'll see what I mean.
(gr research)
Yes. I wish manufacturers, at least in the $3000 and up range of speakers would have model options that offer better crossover components and cabinet bracing and add a surcharge of maybe 20% to 25% and let the consumer decide if they want to pay that premium for better sound and clarity. With their ability to buy in bulk, I see no reason that couldn't be done. It takes just as much labor costs to install crappy crossovers as it does a good one. As Danny shows time and time again in this end of the market, oftentimes the manufacturers are leaving performance on the table.
IMO consumers first need to determine what their overall listening needs are (and work back from that) - type of music they listen to, what is their room environment, how loud do they need the music (if moderate levels like 75-80 dB are preferred then really expensive speakers may not be worth it), how is their hearing (at older ages high freq. response deteriorates), etc. The biggest issue about something like the FR30s is that they will play nicely and loud nicely, but if you don't play super loud, then you don't need something this big or costly. Then remember listening to levels above 90 dB too much can damage your hearing longer term. "Headroom" is nice for classical for example, but a lot of pop is compressed so less headroom is needed.
Pioneer SP-BS21 speakers, designed by Andrew Jones, were very low cost overachievers.
I have the Center speaker, and i love It, i've been searching for a pair if the bookshelf but they have been discontinued
All you need are vintage Klipsch vintage loudspeakers when Paul Klipsch was chief. Klipschorns, La Scala, Cornwalls, Fortes, Heresys KGs, Palladiums and first series RF. Made in USA. Not made to maximise profits. And vintage Crown amps and pre amps. Also vintage Altec Lansings and JBL. Made when real men roamed the land who slept with their boots on.
The old Crown DC 300 compared to modern amps sound dull and veiled , I say this because I have done a few A/B comparisons number of years ago. As far as vintage speakers go, they can be great when upgrading crossover parts and cabinet rigidity.
@@SuperMcgenius Crown DC 300 A and Crown PS A2 are beasts. Use with Crown preamps. Use mainly for commercial purposes though. Bit ugly to look at
One needs at least two pairs of $1.5k plus speakers, to be consistently wowed over time, and to accommodate better amps down the road.
That's an arbitrary number, but probably close to the truth. Anything much under that is not really all that good. Too many compromises being made. Especially if the speakers aren't direct to consumer ones, but rather have a lot of dealer overhead tacked onto their costs.
"Need" and "Want" are not the same.
Do you need a Ferrari to enjoy driving? Well, it sure helps. You certainly want a Ferrari. But you do not need a Ferrari to enjoy driving.
Also, not all high-end is of the same sonic quality.
There is low-fi, mid-fi, and hi-fi.
Within each of the above, there are tiers.
For example, Vandersteen makes several loudspeaker models. Of the ones that are high-end, only the Model Seven speakers are at the high end of hi-fi.
The Quatros, for example, are also amazing speakers, but they are not at the high-end of hi-fi. They are high-end speakers, but at a lower tier of hi-fi.
So just because something qualifies as high-end, it does not mean that it will sound as good as it gets.
I imagine that Paul would qualify his entire speaker line as high-end. But his FR10 speakers are not as high-end as his FR30 speakers.
Of course the FR10s aren't going to be as "good" as the FR30s. Good, better and best have been around as long as manufacturing has been. The idea is to sell to different budgets and make more money.
You can make virtually any speaker sound high-end all you need is get yourself a speaker management system active crossover, r e w on your computer and tune your room DSP.
DSP can do many things but not everything.
DSP can’t change a speakers physical limits. What processing you do before the speaker output has absolutely zero effect on what that speaker is physically capable of due to materials and design. All it can do is optimise the sound for that speaker in that room.
The problem is sometimes the drivers don't reach each other in frequency output. No amount of DSP will fix a hole like that. You really need better drivers.
@@rosswarren436 I don't agree with that yeah if you use a subwoofer with a tweeter lol you might have a problem. you would hopefully that the manufacturer knows what they doing, you can use active DSP with the internal passive crossover as well.
The frequency as I say would have to be way out of spec for any DSP to struggle, that's not a sort of speaker you want anyway, if it's going to be like that, I said a reasonable speak not a pile of rubbish, You're buying some Chinese $50 speaker from Walmart well that's what you get.
@@hoobsgrooveDanny Ritchie at GR Research has several videos where the tweeter does not meet the woofer. Sometimes with a LOT of parts he can make it barely work. But there are other times he told the person who sent them (not cheap speakers, but ones costing about $2000) to him to be fixed that they would be better off cutting their loses and just buying some better speakers.
It depends on the design choices made by the engineers but mostly by their *accounting team* to cut corners and save on costs - like using drivers they have, even if they are crap, just to get some use out of them.
You can work wonders *sometimes* with DSP, but you can't work miracles. You might make the frequency response halfway decent, but if the drivers are crap, you likely won't be getting much dynamic range from them and the speaker will sound lifeless, no matter how well you balance it using DSP.
i still enjoy music off my phone speakers even though i have a $7k system, and have heard systems up to $.5mil. i have friends who get into the music more than i do (sing, dance to it) that are satisfied with their portable jbl bluetooth speakers, they dont care much for the audio gear that i have. in this hobby you're just enjoying the finer things in life, it's not required to be engaged in music
I've noted (to grossly generalize) performers have a distinct experience with their art than observers.
hi Paul I enjoy your videos I have a question have you heard of teufel speakers and are they any good?
Kind of like asking if you need to spend $100k - $250k on a car to give driving pleasure.
Lot's of drivers love their used $20k sports car. But if you can easily afford it, a nice Porsche or Ferrari can be a fun hobby.
On balance, audio is a pretty reasonably priced hobby. Golf, skiiing, sailing, race cars and sport planes all make audio seem pretty tame.
all my hobbies have ended end up "loading" my available play $$$ proportionately, w/ a correction for utility (can't drive my audio systems to Watkins Glen, etc). at some point one may face a determination to reach "fewer things of higher quality & pleasure". we are fortunate if we make it to these conundrums, while avoiding excess selfishness.
Unless you load it up with salt, sugar or MSG. It's like throwing in an EQ and making it smile.
I am into high end sneakers too. Cheap sneakers hurt my feet. Go HOKA!
Great video. what makes a high end speakers ver "normal" speakers ? , The price ? how they look ? how they sound ? where is the "line" that beyond it - the speakers will be high end ?
Speakers Brands fail all the time to assemble speakers correctly. An example is a model JAMO speakers where they used around 11 parts in the speaker crossover filter but a company found that you could get a much better sound with only 5 parts.
It's so subjective though. I have a paid of B&W 702's which I think are mid-level but 99% of my friends think are crazy luxury.
Yes, you always need high quality speakers. Maybe the flight companies around the world should consider a better mic and headsets + amps so they can hear critical messages clearly from the towers etc.etc.... to me it sound like class B when they talk... not strange planes takes off when they should not and so on...
Paul are those orange beasts at your feet in any of your products?
亞Paul,亞Paul. I am a diy this year ,I retired ,when I was young ,I owed B&W 801 "85 first released in Hong Kong .for me I like 音樂，come from they call Stereo HiFi.I have no money right now ,so I don’t care what they said Hi end ?cost no object ?but I keep trucking Audio Industry.I like the HiFi writer wrote the 美麗words
is that grey triangular thing a space module for a dog or something???
idea is that you need a good cook to have a good sound? what about the performance related to the price? is high end the only way to have good sound reproduction to enjoy the genuine sound of the recording or the broadcast? is high end having the monopoly of sound?
Do I spy a prototype subwoofer in the background?
You do actually need good ingredients to make something good to eat.
Well, I went from technics to Denon, from denon to Vincent, from Vincent to Sony, and today I have a luxman amp! What’s better than luxman?? 🤭….of course “constellation Audio”, but I would never could afford it…😔🤔
Well we definitely know not to listen to you Sony suxs
Jorge, just listen for yourself and buy what you like. No, you do not need high end speakers to enjoy music and you may not enjoy it any more if you had them. No one can tell you what you are going to enjoy so the only way to know is to try and listen to as many products as you can. If you go a friends home and he tells you his system is what a system should sound like but you don't like it then you know your opinion of what great sound should be and his are different and keep looking. Audiophiles are full of opinions and other stuff and should be listend to with a grain of salt. Sure, try out some of the stuff they recommend but don't think for a second because someone says they're an audiophile and they like or use brand XYZ that they are right or wrong. They are just people with an opinion.
I prefer my 1969 Sansui SP 1500 speakers. But that's just me.
You 'need' a good SYSTEM. Terrific speakers will show how horrible an amp or source is. Or are too difficult to drive by an 'ordinary' amp.
I own a set of Epos ES14, witch i drove by a Naim NAP90 amp (2x 30W @8 Ohm). It sounded good... but upgrading to a NAP180 (2x 60W @8 Ohm) added more weight, slam, control.
Just like when i upgraded my cartridge which exposed more details in the recordings that we there, but never 'got out' first.
So do i 'need' the best speakers?
I need a system that makes me smile, makes my feet tapping, makes me want to listen further and further. And if that can be achieved by a 3000 Euro system instead of a 5000 euro system: great! That means i have more money for records etc
i need hi end ears... where can i buy a pair?? haa
Great sound without spending a ton of money...... buy yourself an EQ.
doesn't mean there's no great, affordable speakers out there. A pair of Wharfedale Diamond III are much, MUCH closer to good high end bookshelfs, than to Bose 201's. Match them with a NAD C320 and a Pioneer PL112D with an AT-VM95E cartridge and you have something that truly sounds great. Is it high end? Absolutely not, but is it 'very good and affordable'; yes, certainly.
That said, if you are on a limited budget, don't buy new, don't even consider it. Also don't buy vintage. The sweet spot is 10-25 years old for reliability and sound quality for a little amount of cash.
Other than that, as Paul says; use your ears. Combine stuff until it's right.
What does dog meat sound like?
I can relate to what Paul said even more than he does. Just the term "High End" has come to repulse me when I hear it having dealt too much with some people who worship it.
Radha Radha 💚🙏🏻
No!😃
If you are an audiophile who loves to listen to your equipment rather than the music, then you definitely need high end speakers.
How do you listen to you're equipment without listening to the music?
@@Mark-lq3sb Many do it. They switch speakers around to listen to the "new sound" rather than the music. Many audiophiles think it's fun.
@@flargosa
You just admitted in your statement, your so called "new sound" is music that you are listening to.
Bottom line, you are listening to music. There's no way around that. You can not listen to your audio system and judge what it is that you do or don't like about the "sound" you are hearing without music, period. You are just perpetuating a silly statement that someone once made out of jealousy. Yes, some people have a problem with other people that have more money to spend on luxury items such as audio equipment. Are you one of those people?
@@patfrederick7327
Why do you let that bother you? Obviously, your statement tells us that you do have a problem with that. Who gives a rat's ass if someone walks around with their nose up in the air because they have something better than you. There are thousands of people in the world that have a lot more money than I have, but I sure don't let bother me. Who cares, so what, what the F***!
@@Mark-lq3sb People can spend however way they wish. It's not my money.
The majority listen on some portable device. I use my phone.
I do have a dedicated home theater and a NAD Dali hifi but hardly turn them on.
The phone, select RUclips and thats it . I hardly even use headphones with it.
Second to post this time!
Cheers from Montreal
This entire premise is kind of ridiculous. You can enjoy music on pretty much anything that makes sound, as people have for over a century on everything from a wind up gramophone, to earbuds, clock radios,, and car stereos,
I try to avoid saying things like “most $500 speakers sound like dog meat, they’re awful”, because it perpetuates the impression that audiophiles are elitist snobs who just want you to spend lots of money.
check your wallet and buy the best affordable pair of speakers! Don't think too much!
One thing's for sure, in order to enjoy music, you DON'T need "Robbie Williams" or "The Spice Girls!" 🤮
Considering how bad most high end speakers sound, no.
Lousy psaudio speaker's 😂 look at Paul's theatrics. Psaudio has serious quality issues it's seriously spurious ..this drama will continue for a time till they will close shop for good. Audiophile please do your research on these products before spending your hard earned money.
Back at it again...
I see you wouldn't answer some of my basic questions I asked you in my last reply to you. How do we know it wasn't your fault and you destroyed your equipment?
@@Mark-lq3sb it appears you are a proxy for paul. since you are such a affectinado for psaudio please send me you address will gift you the psaudio p10 on condition you pay for the shipping costs by fedex in advance. then you will see for yourself the quality first hand.
my earlier reply it appears was deleted di it offend you?
@@Mark-lq3sb
Sir, I've started a project of 5.1 HiFi home audio system with 2SC5200+2SA1943 MOSFETs based class AB Amplifiers. Specs: 100W RMS (5 channels) and 400W RMS Subwoofer. There is a confusion regarding the voltages though. The 100w / channel board is asking for 55 0 55 Volt DC. If I use 40 0 40 Volt (AC) transformer the rectified filtered (no load) voltage would be around 56V 0 56V DC. Full load voltage should be around 39 0 39 Volt DC. If I go for 55 0 55 V Transformers the the no load DC voltage would be around 77 0 77 Volt DC. Please guide me which transformer should I choose. I'm stuck with this confusion for a while. I have ordered. PCB. MOSFETs, Heatsinks, and everything else except the Transformers :(
i just bought [the last of stock i guess] of the q acoustics 3020's and they are on par with my more expensive kefs and all my bookshelfs. of course the kef comparison is subjective but the q acoustics definitely have great dynamics with my NAD which is a super rare trait for any budget speaker. i got the concept 20's coming as i got them for $249, last of stock as well im assuming.
I would take the 3020 over more expensive speakers. I tell most people to just get a pair of 3020 with some inexpensive Denon/Marantz amp.
paul is really pushing the product placement, lol which he should rightfully do as he has quality products but his definition of 'cheap' is definitely a hifi standard. i am one who definitely tries to go 'hifi' by way of the used market. and its totally doable. also i am irked by ps audio speakers having bass radiators. nothing colors sound more than bass radiators for speakers imo. and yes this is at high level of manufacturing but it doesnt make sense to me to go that route....