NEC PC-8801 keyboard review (Alps SKCM Blue)
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- Опубликовано: 12 дек 2019
- Skip to 10:52 for a typing demonstration.
If you're watching in HD and wondering why the last 4 scenes look like they were filmed in 720p; they were :p . My real camera broke!
Today we look at a classic from the Japanese vintage computing scene. The NEC PC-8801 was one of the best-selling and most well-known Asian PCs from the early 80s. Sporting blue Alps and PBT dyesub keycaps, it's a pretty cool specimen!
My keyboard reviews: bit.ly/1TbOtft
My switch teardowns: bit.ly/2C1QGHz
My TOP X videos: bit.ly/2FmpZfd
My XL typing demos: bit.ly/2OoAW3w
My tutorials and featurettes: bit.ly/2OrkLUh
My unboxing videos: bit.ly/2TSrr0m
I'm Thomas and I do videos and reviews on mechanical keyboards ranging from the most sickening modern RGB gaming keyboards to vintage hardware relics, or sometimes keycaps or keyswitches ranging from Cherry MX to Alps SKCM to IBM buckling springs and anything in between.
Follow me on Twitter for updates on my keyboard videos! / chyrosran22
I can't remember what the practice sentence was anymore because the keyboard doesn't print :p . 
Наука
6:30 the "Japanese key" is a toggle for typing between hiragana and katakana.
MobCat ツ
Thomas Malcolm Macleay ツシ
ロリコンプレックスは罪です、私の子供。
これが日本語
Actually the カナ ("kana") key toggles between romaji (latin letters) and katakana. The built in text mode character set does not support hiragana, though hiragana and kanji can of course be displayed using a graphics mode.
Saturday morning, classes are finally over....blue alps and coffee....thanks Tom :-)
I really want to see a play through of rolling papers now
look it up. Im sure there is at least one video on youtube about it
Those Alps switches... Their sound remains amazing to this day.
If the connector simply is a pinout for the matrix then theoretically it'd be possible to just hook it up to a microcontroller (perhaps a Pro Micro with a daughter board) and get it working with QMK
Had the same thought. If it’s just a key matrix it might be relatively straight-forward, but who knows!
@@jordanfish apparently there's a system of multiplexers because with a 13 pin you only get a 6x7 matrix which is nowhere near big enough for this board. It still might be possible though, if we can find out what chip is in there then we could come up with a demultiplexing system and feed that into QMK. Unless QMK handles mutliplexed signals but that's something I've never done
Presumably the keys are not individually wired... So it's a matrix. To map that matrix, you do a continuity test between each key and the output pins on the edge of the board. With the resulting map, you can devise a pinout for your MC and a logical representation of the matrix in QMK.
@@bashisobsolete.pythonismyn6321 yeah but the thing is with 13 pins you don't have enough pins for a matrix the size of that board so there must be some kind of mutliplexing
@@benammiswift well, in a normal keyboard matrix, rows and columns are being scanned one by one in an endless cycle. Rather than constant monitoring, the microcontroller takes a series of snapshots at a rate of, say, 10khz. As long as the circuit has reliable high speed timers and decent quality switches, we end up with a perfectly good KB at low cost.
Some of those pins may be unused while others could be for power, LEDs, buzzer, etc. Also, old KBs can contain 2 or 3 boards. Could be 3 or 4 pins for each board. This KB is really asking for a teardown!
2:52 Thomas.exe has stopped working
Protip for those looking for this style of 8801 board: Yellowed ABS keycaps mean Futaba switches. If you can't tell, look for the arrow keys in the top right of the board. Shorter, bolder arrow legends are Futaba. Longer, skinnier arrow legends are Alps.
These did actually explode in price a bit when alps became hypebeast switches in like 2018. Luckily most people are too lazy to figure out how to use proxy services. Can't wait for them to start going over 20000 JPY thanks to this video. :)
bought one of these for about $75 with about $20 shipping
CAPS and カナ keys as toggles is a great idea even for modern keyboards
When I was a kid, David’s Midnight Magic on the Apple II+ was my first exposure to a computer game more elaborate than TV Pong. It was amazing.
It boggles the mind that with all the new MX switch designs of debatable quality, the Alps goes unloved.
Or hell, that Kono Keystone keyboard that's on its way for a 2020 year release. Even if that keyboard is exactly what it says it is feature and feel wise, I bet'cha its going to be unsung overall in the grand scheme of things.
i mean comparing a honda and a cadillac isnt fair is it?
john cena of course, the honda is far superior.
@@Spearra Some people are probably gonna complain that they're not standard switches so you cant use them into any custom PCB, or that you may not be able to lube them (I've seen that complaint with BOX switches) and imply that therefore they're inferior.
Those people are wrong and have the wrong priorities.
@@Toblehrone It seems to me that this hobby is becoming more about being able to brag about your keyboard (like that you've lubed it or that it has expensive GMK keycaps) than actually using the keyboards themselves.
Please do more keyboard comparison videos! :)
Given how Japan has so many vintage shops I wonder if getting one of these babies in its home of Japan may be more economic than shelling out for one on eBay. I so desperately want to try Blue Alps!
I have the extended version of this keyboard with doubleshot ABS keycaps all around. Need to retrobrite them to get them back to glory
Beautiful keycaps, Sorry to hear about your Camera.
*cries in katakana*
I am Japanese. ツ is pronounced “tsu” This character is not a happy face🤣. In fact, Japanese need only English notation, and rarely use katakana notation
I thought that I'm strange as I use qwerty to type in Japanese. I don't understand in Japanese, but sometimes I need it, so one day I just installed the IME and was like "wow, I can type with qwerty"
I have one of these and have taken it apart. It would be pretty easy to build an adapter with a microcontroller that scans the keyboard and generates USB or Bluetooth keyboard HID events.The following is the minimum you need to know to do this.
The keyboard contains a 74159 four-to-sixteen demux with open collector outputs. This is used to bring a selected row low (just 11 rows on this version of the keyboard); the other rows are left floating. Pins 9-12 on the DIN-13 connector drive the demux inputs A through D. Pins 1-8 on the connector are the column outputs for the selected row. Pin 13 is Vcc (+5V), pin 14 is ground, and pins 15 and 16 are unconnected. Internally the end of the keyboard cable connects to the PCB via a standard 2 row × 12 pin .1" shrouded header; that may be easier to connect to your board if you don't mind replacing the cable.
If you're not familiar with this type of keyboard scanning you can have a look at the how the Commodore 64 does it; the schematics and the disassembled ROM code that does the scanning are widely available. (Many other 8-bit computers are substantially similar.)
I don't know how reliable the 74159 is, but mine was definitely broken when I got my keyboard, so if you seem to be having problems, that's worth checking. The only other thing that can really go wrong is broken wires or traces.
I have documented considerably more information about this keyboard, including external and internal connector diagrams, wire colours, the keyboard matrix and references to several other sites that discuss or document the keyboard. However RUclips seems to have a habit of removing posts that contain a URL, so I'll post the link in a reply to this comment.
The link to the documentation I mentioned above is: github.com/0cjs/sedoc/blob/master/8bit/nec/8801.md#keyboard
"It would be pretty easy to build an adapter with a microcontroller that scans the keyboard and generates USB or Bluetooth keyboard HID events."
I found the biggest problem to be Arduino's rather horrible USB HID keyboard libraries. Take the Keyboard library, still the recommended standard to create a USB HID keyboard using Arduino: It works fine-ish if all you want to transmit is lower ASCII keystrokes, but it's written in a way that makes it impossible to transmit anything else. E.g., for this keyboard it will not be able to send the hankaku/zenkaku/kanji/kana keys. And the other "third-party" keyboard libraries are not much better, they either are a royal pain to use or waaaaay overblown for what one needs to generate keystrokes.
Years ago I wrote a custom library that can actually send _any_ possible keycode in the USB HUT (as exotic as you wanna be, F24 key anyone?) while being as straightforward to use as the Keyboard library. I should probably look up how to bring it into a standard-ish format and publish it on my Github so others can just pick it up.
@@drmr4613 Yeah, you'll note I specifically avoided mentioning Arduino: I'm not a big fan of that ecosystem (though it does have its good points). You might find that something like QMK, being dedicated keyboard firmware, is a lot more suited to this sort of thing. (I've not used QMK myself, though.)
Oi.
oi
you said enix square
edit: you are forgiven, it's 6 am and that rolling papers title screen cracked me the fuck up
Enix and Square were two different companies back then; I SPECIFICALLY said it in that order as as not to confuse people with Square Enix :p .
Sounds nice
thats interesting that you find the 1st gen alps to be lighter than the later ones, because I have a very nice condition keyboard with the same 1st gen switches and they feel a bit more tactile and heavy than later blue alps to me.
iRocks K76M and Alps
Has anyone had any experience with the iRocks K76M key switches that are supposed to be updated clones of the Alps early blue switch?
the numpad layout is very nice- wish I had that on my keyboard since all Autodesk software wants me to use a dot for what would be a comma in Germany- so I have to reach for the dot key that is supposed to be pressed with the right hand with my left hand since I need my right hand to enter the numbers on the numpad... of course I could use a program to change the comma key- but the last time I did that I accidentally payed 900€for a 9€part because the online banking UI just ignores dots..
Will you cover the early PC-9801 keyboards? Some had NEC Blue Ovals (which you covered) and some had White Ovals like the PC-9801U keyboard.
"they're still quite affordable"
Coming from the retro computing side of things, they're now between in on par to more than tripple the cost of the computer they're supposed to be paired with. And the later model keyboard for the FH and later models are next to impossible to find.
Does the later version of this keyboard still use blue Alps?
7:30
ッッッ
I've got a new plant for the desk. It is said that plants grow better if you talk to them. So I just put on your videos on autoplay and let my plant enjoy! :)
Hope you get a new camera soon, dude!
Is this the same camera you've been using for years?
Yes, the crowdfunded one. It's served me well all this time, admittedly xD . I should be getting another one in soon, but I don't think it will arrive in time for next week's video xD .
nice overwatch logo on that zilog z80 cpu
Glad I'm not the only one who was thinking that!
You might be able to program a Raspberry Pi or a Arduino to take in the raw input and turn it into a modern protocol.
I like the numpad a lot
Which modern switches most closely to ALPS blue?
Designing and programming a converter for this should be pretty easy. What's not going to be easy though, is to find sockets for that 13 pin connector!
Damn that board sounds real good. better than the other blue alps IMHO. But its hard to tell over youtube
That crisp click... mmf.
Was kinda expecting Thomas to tear the boards bizarre layout a new one :/ But I guess this one got off the hook for being old even for an SKCM board.
weird questios: what kwyboard is the one of the OP? It sounds pretty good
It's the Acer; the one that makes a cameo in this video as well!
I don't think anyone else has said so thus far and if you've already done it, forgive me, but otherwise...
TD fooookin XL, man!
❤️
I'll add it to the list!
you can try to use a multimeter with the continuity tester and press each switch to know which one goes to which and then take the PCB off of a rubber dome keyboard and wire it that way, although it would be a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge pain in the ass to probe almost 100 keys one by one on a 13 pin connector
That won't work; there's a 4-to-16 demultiplexer in the keyboard that you must drive. I have posted all the details in another comment here.
Thomas what is the intro sound?
It's a typing sound recorded off an Acer KB-101A.
💙
I've got quite a few of these and pc-98s and they are still my favourite boards. They just can't be used on modern computers, which suuuuucks.
Edit: Oh! If you want a converter, they do exist, but you're looking at over $200 for one if you can find one. They are out there, but not made in great numbers.
If they exist, they can be made ;) .
You can always convert them from the inside :)
Sorry for being annoying though chyros
@@Chyrosran22 Having "reverse-engineered" the Famicom Basic keyboard and made an USB adapter for that one before, I am 99% sure an adapter for this keyboard would be quite similar to do. As far as I can tell the only IC it uses is an SN74159N demultiplexer chip, which means that it's just a matter of scanning rows and columns and mapping them to a table of keycodes. I'm going out on a limb and say that all it takes is the 13-pin din connector and an Arduino Pro Micro, less than $10 in hardware.
Interestingly enough, there also seems to be a market for adapters to convert USB to PC88, which suggests that the base units are easier to come by than the keyboards or the latter are easier to go bad.
Here's a quick update. I found an adapter being sold by one dude who made a very small batch. It costs about $30, but i'm yet to receive it and try it out. I'll let you know how it goes and if it works, i'll give you some links.
@@drmr4613 Correct; you should be able to build a microcontroller-based board to scan the keyboard and generate USB HID output for under $20. You can even bypass the DIN-13 connector (though they are still available) and use the internal 2×12 .1" shrouded header if you like. See my other comment on this video for the details, including the pinout.
Noice. Now here's your vinegar and toothbrush. Keep it on hand. Because the pins in the connector are silver-plated. Or maybe it's the connector on the machine. Either way.
I’m not computer engineer but I feel making a little brain box for this thing wouldn’t be that hard since it is just sending raw input out
Are those LGRs pictures? :D
Don't think so, I got most off a NEC retro site Oo .
@@Chyrosran22 I think he's referring to the picture on the left at 0:49. It's the Wikipedia photo of the PC-8801, but it is attributed to the Flickr account phreakindee, which is LGR's old username. He also had a video where he used that PC-88, with that monitor, on that kitchen table, so it's definitely his picture.
While I'm sure the keyboard feels great, it sounds like Japanese TV robots fighting, but without the sound effects.
hey
I came at the end
Lord Chyros I use Sumitomo fusion splicers in my daily job splicing fibre optics.
They are garbage units XD
ツ is TSU like 2
カナ is KANA like katakana/hiragana
The big tsu is literally the sound tsu. The little one marks a doubled consonant, like in パックマン, Pakkuman.
ﾠKawa like....¿
Here before the price for these inflate. XD
ツッツッツッツッツッツッツッツ
Awesome!! I got my hands on one of these beauties a couple years back - it's a sweet keyboard, and the NEC PC-8801 is an awesome computer!! I currently have the keycaps on my wood Atreus build and they look pretty fucking amazing imho. imgur.com/gallery/yxzOdPR
the japanese button is afaik a toggle to switch between japanese(hiragana) and chinese(katakana/kanji), since some japanese words are still in chinese, infact the whole of japan used to speak chinese and only rich/royal woman specifically uses japanese to write poems.
Katakana is purely Japanese; it's not used in Chinese. And the カナ ("kana") key switches between romaji (latin letters) and katakana. The internal text mode character set does not support hiragana. This isn't a big issue since hiragana and katakana are just two different sets of glyphs for the same "alphabet."
The first one I see on ebay is $400 USD and doesn't even work.
I guess I'll just keep typing vicariously through your videos instead.
Ya, eBay isn't really a thing in Japan. If you want to find one for a semi-reasonable price you'd need to look on Yahoo Auctions Japan for them, but you'll need to use a 3rd party service to bid and ship to you since all the sales on there are Japan-only. Its a bit of a pain and you can expect the broker who handles your purchase to add up to a 25% fee on top of the sale price.
Late reply but if anyone else is interested I just got one of these for the equivalent of about $170 shipped from Japan via Sendico (proxy site for various Japanese auction sites, chiefly Yahoo Auctions). They only charge a flat 500 yen (about $5) commission, other than that you only pay for the item, the domestic shipping from the seller to the proxy seller, and the international shipping.
These things are still really common in Japan but since the PC-88 was non-existent outside of Japan eBay is not gonna be the way to go.
I have an idea
Put your "sweary" reviews on BitChute as well as on RUclips, that way you'll fit right in.
Isnt BitChute the place where all the questionable RUclips channels that get banned go?
Edit: Ok I checked it out and the front page is:
1. Conspiracy theory about the Magna Carta
2. Conspiracy theory about how Burger King is turning men into women with their soy burgers
3. "SJWs want to make Santa & Jesus gay." No kidding, that's the title.
And the video from the front page with the most views (772 views) is "Climate Scientist Caught Lying To Australian Public"
Yeah... That's a terrible site.
I like the videos, except for when the Superior Imperial System is discriminated against.
As for conspiracy theories, many sites we take for granted were like that at some point. At some point, all sites will have 3 options.
1. Die Quickly
2. Become "Free Speech Anarchies" like Bitchute, which turns off liberals.
3. Censor Everyone, which turns off conservatives.
It's inevitable, and I'd rather have Total Anarchy than Censorship.
They need to make e621 themed keycaps
Z ッ
ツ
Hehe smiley facr
*nut milk*
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