Hey all! I had a bit of an inaccurate statement in my video that I have removed regarding damage calculations. All of the information in the video should be accurate now - thanks for the call outs!
For the 1 HP Magmadon or the white health transition I would imagine, that the armor reduction is applied twice. Once for white health and one more time for the overflow damage to the actual health
I just don't understand why it wouldn't have been a straight up % reduction. No special math required. I always need to have the formula in my head to figure out that 50 armor is actual 33% reduction, when it could have said 33 on the card and be done with it. And for different numbers it's even harder.
A straight % reduction would make it harder to balance armor buffing effects, because units become invincible at 100 armor. The formula SG uses scales damage down but never reduces it to zero.
@@Apoptosis808GK Effective HP is the way I see it as well and it helps, but it can still be hard to visualize, especially at lower numbers. Like 5 and 10 are common.
@@mwcz5190 Indeed but that's why you hardly put armor and effects in game beyond 33%, that's an insane amount. For example in SC2 the most you could reduce big blows like tank and liberator shots is like 4-5, which is nothing. 33% would be incredible for those and even good for small unit fire. And different effects won't stack additively, but be subtracted from the new damage value. Very easy to balance.
Great video but I wanted to point out a correction. Armor in Stormgate is not a direct 1:1 translation into damage reduction like you stated at 8:19. For instance, if you attack for 10 damage into a unit with 10 armor and 100 health you end up dealing 9.090909 repeating damage instead of 9 damage. That is not exactly a 10% reduction as the formula creates a logarithmic function that lessens the amount of value you get as you increase in armor. Still though, wonderful breakdown on everything else regarding their armor system :)
Ah thanks for pointing this out, in my pinned comment I mentioned that I removed some earlier damage reduction notes in the video but looks like I missed this one. I'll see if I can remove it! Thanks for the call out.
@@Apoptosis808GK Ahh, totally understandable to miss what is literally a single second in the video haha. I didn't get a chance to see the video before the changes so I wasn't aware what it was referring to. Sorry for the repeated callout.
No it's not. The damage is reduced by Armor %. The limit usage increases. Take a unit with 100 HP and 10% Armor and 10 incoming raw damage. Damage gets reduced to 9. Without Armor the unit dies after 10 hits. With 10 % Armor the unit has 1 HP after 11 Hits. So ist has an effective health of 111. + 11% Now upt the armor to 50%. Each hit now causes 5 damage. So it takes 20 hits to kill the unit. Effective health is 200, + 100%
@@anonymeforliberty4387 Thank you. Haven't seen that. A unique take. But is Liquipedia correct about that. I remember the time, the Krin had +50 Armor (additional to the 10 base) while rolling. And it didn't look like they only had +60 percent more effective health.
I really dislike this version of armor because, while it's easy to design around, it doesn't add much to gameplay. An upgrade that gives +10 Armor could have just said "+10% HP and healing received" If armor is going to work in such a simple way, to me it feels like a waste to even include it. Like pretending you have a meaningful armor mechanic when you don't.
@Tryptic214 Well, I think it does have other implications as well. While having armor on a unit essentially translates to higher HP, I think there are a number of possibilities you might be overlooking. Negative armor being one, and the interaction of armor and health. Armor alone doesn't make something tanky, but the combination of high armor and high HP. While on the surface it might seem quite straightforward, the more I think about it the more I realize there's a lot more at work than I initially thought!
The opposite argument can be made as well where in SC2 there were many times where it was worthless to upgrade it compared to attack, like for example vs mech where a few less points of damage did nothing.
@@Apoptosis808GK ...What you're saying doesn't address what he said at all? The exact same things would be the case with an effect that says "increases hp and healing received by x%". The number here could also be negative, and it will also interact multiplicatively with health.
@@Leonhart_93 I actually always thought that armour should reduce the attack of siege tanks, for instance by more than just 1, since they do so much damage. But it's debatable, either way leads to different kinds of mechanics.
@@archyology It's not that debatable in my mind, no one takes it before attack because the upgrades costing exactly the same never made any sense. The power difference between upgrades is huge.
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Hey all! I had a bit of an inaccurate statement in my video that I have removed regarding damage calculations. All of the information in the video should be accurate now - thanks for the call outs!
never watched a video of yours before. Instant sub after noticing hand tattoo. Hail yourself!
For the 1 HP Magmadon or the white health transition I would imagine, that the armor reduction is applied twice. Once for white health and one more time for the overflow damage to the actual health
@MarschallRokossowski Yes, this seems to be the case others have reported as well. Thanks for sharing!
nice explanation, thx!
Thanks (:
Beautiful work! I appreciate the teaching! :D Thank you!
Good breakdown. Thanks for posting this.
I just don't understand why it wouldn't have been a straight up % reduction. No special math required.
I always need to have the formula in my head to figure out that 50 armor is actual 33% reduction, when it could have said 33 on the card and be done with it. And for different numbers it's even harder.
@@Leonhart_93 It can be confusing for sure, I get it wrong all the time! That's why I think that thinking of armor as Effective HP is much easier :D
A straight % reduction would make it harder to balance armor buffing effects, because units become invincible at 100 armor. The formula SG uses scales damage down but never reduces it to zero.
@@Apoptosis808GK Effective HP is the way I see it as well and it helps, but it can still be hard to visualize, especially at lower numbers. Like 5 and 10 are common.
@@mwcz5190 Indeed but that's why you hardly put armor and effects in game beyond 33%, that's an insane amount. For example in SC2 the most you could reduce big blows like tank and liberator shots is like 4-5, which is nothing. 33% would be incredible for those and even good for small unit fire.
And different effects won't stack additively, but be subtracted from the new damage value. Very easy to balance.
"It is a lot better than you might think it is, but it is also a lot worse than you might think it is too" - Said Bilbo, while caressing the one ring.
MY PRECIOUS
Great video but I wanted to point out a correction. Armor in Stormgate is not a direct 1:1 translation into damage reduction like you stated at 8:19. For instance, if you attack for 10 damage into a unit with 10 armor and 100 health you end up dealing 9.090909 repeating damage instead of 9 damage. That is not exactly a 10% reduction as the formula creates a logarithmic function that lessens the amount of value you get as you increase in armor. Still though, wonderful breakdown on everything else regarding their armor system :)
Ah thanks for pointing this out, in my pinned comment I mentioned that I removed some earlier damage reduction notes in the video but looks like I missed this one. I'll see if I can remove it! Thanks for the call out.
@@Apoptosis808GK Ahh, totally understandable to miss what is literally a single second in the video haha. I didn't get a chance to see the video before the changes so I wasn't aware what it was referring to. Sorry for the repeated callout.
@@josephschilling1532 Not at all, thank you for pointing it out to me!
so, 10 armor is equivalent to 10% more of health
1 armor is equivalent to 1% more of health
No it's not. The damage is reduced by Armor %. The limit usage increases.
Take a unit with 100 HP and 10% Armor and 10 incoming raw damage. Damage gets reduced to 9.
Without Armor the unit dies after 10 hits. With 10 % Armor the unit has 1 HP after 11 Hits. So ist has an effective health of 111. + 11%
Now upt the armor to 50%. Each hit now causes 5 damage. So it takes 20 hits to kill the unit. Effective health is 200, + 100%
@@MarschallRokossowski well thats not what liquipedia says : 50 armor = 150% health
@@anonymeforliberty4387 Thank you. Haven't seen that. A unique take.
But is Liquipedia correct about that. I remember the time, the Krin had +50 Armor (additional to the 10 base) while rolling. And it didn't look like they only had +60 percent more effective health.
I vastly prefer SC2's armor system because damage can be figured out with the simplest arithmetic and no need for algebra.
Its a bit more complicated, but the Effective HP calculations are pretty easy. Just stick with those and you'll be right as rain.
@@Apoptosis808GK its not easy with negative armor.
Any tips for killing lancers? Lol. They feel invincible
The math says, high attack damage units and spells! But also they don't do a ton of damage, so maybe ignore them (:
Vanguard is way too tanky
I really love to new content. Please never return to dota.
You have reinforced my belief that vanguard needs another nerf
I really dislike this version of armor because, while it's easy to design around, it doesn't add much to gameplay. An upgrade that gives +10 Armor could have just said "+10% HP and healing received"
If armor is going to work in such a simple way, to me it feels like a waste to even include it. Like pretending you have a meaningful armor mechanic when you don't.
@Tryptic214 Well, I think it does have other implications as well. While having armor on a unit essentially translates to higher HP, I think there are a number of possibilities you might be overlooking. Negative armor being one, and the interaction of armor and health. Armor alone doesn't make something tanky, but the combination of high armor and high HP. While on the surface it might seem quite straightforward, the more I think about it the more I realize there's a lot more at work than I initially thought!
The opposite argument can be made as well where in SC2 there were many times where it was worthless to upgrade it compared to attack, like for example vs mech where a few less points of damage did nothing.
@@Apoptosis808GK ...What you're saying doesn't address what he said at all? The exact same things would be the case with an effect that says "increases hp and healing received by x%". The number here could also be negative, and it will also interact multiplicatively with health.
@@Leonhart_93 I actually always thought that armour should reduce the attack of siege tanks, for instance by more than just 1, since they do so much damage. But it's debatable, either way leads to different kinds of mechanics.
@@archyology It's not that debatable in my mind, no one takes it before attack because the upgrades costing exactly the same never made any sense. The power difference between upgrades is huge.