LED Wafer light Warning!
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- Опубликовано: 6 ноя 2022
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Have been using these for awhile now. Tried both store brands and mail order cheapo’s and found them unreliable. Only use Halo now.
Correct! There are brands that do not require this clearance, but I always train people to read their manufacturers instructions! Thank you for the comment!
I thought I was on to something when I found a great deal on a 12 pack of some no-name brand on Amazon. I installed 6 of them and within 6 months they had all died. Replaced them with the other 6 I had in the box, and they went out just as fast. I put in Halo brand and haven't had a lick of trouble in over a year. That's what I'll stick with if I ever need more of them. In addition to the issues listed in the video, I found that the plastic construction of the cheapos doesn't dissipate heat well enough and the just cook themselves. It's not enough to start a fire, but the LEDs burn our super fast.
I only use Lithonia Lighting
I put in over a dozen of these from some Chinese company via Amazon. They have all been running fine for over two years now. I was concerned about reliability, so I purchased extras when I originally ordered them, but so far no issues. They even work on a dimmer and are controlled by Alexa just fine.
I need to install some lights in my house. Long overdue. My bedroom has medium to low lighting. Getting older and can't see as well as before. So I figure 6 inch, but your recommendation on Halo is just want I needed. I have plenty of space in the attic. Thank you for your input.
love your energy, passion and willingness to teach. I'm a carpenter but I tune in to your channel to see what's going on with other trades. Keep up the good work!
Awesome, thank you!
Thanks for the tip. I installed plenty of these wafer lights, mainly the ones with the built in night light
It would be a strong assumption that the manufacturer is probably attempting to protect their element from hot spots or overheating internally which would require premature aging/failure. If they were capable of generating enough heat to cause igniting of materials (like the recessed cans with incandescent bulb could) then they would likely require thermal cut-offs like IC cans do.
How do you change the light when one goes out??
It's easy to find ones that are IC rated. Always read the description before you hit "Buy"
I always buy the IC ones. Avoid the no name mysterious Chinese clones, even if they are a few bucks cheaper. It’s not worth burning the house down.
Thank you for taking the time to help us in doing things the right way
Awesome as always!
Thanks for sharing, coach!
🙏
We’re still using the regular recessed fixtures with standard trims, and LED bulbs. My biggest concern is when that one wafer light in the middle of the kitchen with 5 or 6 more surrounding it goes out in 4-5 years, are you still gonna be able to find that exact light again? Probably not, but I bet you’ll be able to find another bulb. We have switched over to disc lights in closets, pantry, and utility room areas. Small areas where it really doesn’t matter as much when it has to be replaced.
thanks for all !!!
I appreciate all the effort that you put into helping others.
Let's go!
Good to know. Thank you for sharing.
Installed Halo brand in the basement, they are a big improvement over the florescent fixtures. They are awesome for drop ceilings.
Thank you so much for the heads up
You bet
I installed some junos in a dropped ceiling so far works n looks great
I'm looking into buying this type of light. Now I know what to look for. Thank you sir!
Great video. Also I found out the hard way that they are not easy to install in old plaster ceilings. I cut a hole and found an original plaster/lath ceiling with drywall over it for a total thickness of 2 inches. The spring arms, as they come now ,will not secure the led wafer light securely. So along with the bigger ring that you suggested, it would be nice if they had a way to modify the spring clamps for thicker ceilings.
Something to consider is, if they make these to fit a wide variety of wall thicknesses, it'll add to the cost of the part. Also. Every time a manufacturer tries to make their product a 'one size fits all' design, it usually ends up not being particularly good at anything it was _suppose to_ be for. But I do agree that there should be alternative designs for an application such as yours. Maybe an adapter kit.
i usually whittle away some of the sheetrock where the clamps land , works well
If I encountered this situation I’d try to remove enough of just the lath & plaster portion of the ceiling where the spring arms would go to allow them to function correctly. Not sure if this is practical or not without seeing the actual ceiling but just a suggestion that I’m hoping might be helpful.
@@sjsomething4936
I was thinking the same thing, just gouge out a little of the deeper material so the springs get some purchase. I've only installed two sets of these type of lights but I've had to pull many from ceilings to gain access and I've found the springs to be pretty strong. A couple of whacks with a hammer and chisel and you'd have enough of a recess for the springs to catch and hold. I'd actually be surprised if the springs wouldn't hold the wafer in place without a recess. I've been "mousetrapped" by them a couple of times and they sting pretty good when they whack your finger.
We have used that type on and off for many years. I have never seen one that required the clearances you are talking about.
That's good, I would check the instructions every time!
As a lighting designer most of these lights do require a gap above the fixture so that it gets enough air to cool it and keep the LED’s in good condition for the life of the fixture. Less reputable manufacturers may not list it, I would highly recommend contacting the manufacturer or it be stated in the instillation instructions or specifications sheet that it can be in contact with insulation or structure. Sometime things are stated in the instillation sometimes on the spec sheet, sometimes both, you never know.
I want to install these in my basement rec-room. Was going to order some cheapies from Amazon until I checked out your video. By reading some of the comments here, Halo seems to be the consensus. I'll spend the extra money. Thank you for the information!
Thanx for the info
Thanks
Did not know this
I purchase some cheap thin clear plastic bins at the Dollar store and place them upside over each fixture in the attic. Blown in insulation about 2 feet thick buries them but gives them some space to breath. Haven't had a failure yet.
thanks 🙏
I bought 20 cans for my basement remodel and I’m looking into changing some into the wafer lights. My remodel has changed to needing more sound insulation as I need to make it as soundproof as I can. So the wafer lights appeal is a much smaller hole in the suspended drywall. I’ve thought about how to fix a dead transformer box if one goes out after installation and basically realize that a sound insulated can light (using approved insulation) is as good as I’m going to get it. Maybe now that LED lights and light strips have improved in quality and brightness I could completely seal the ceiling and just use track type lights with plug ins on the walls. Things to consider now. 🤔
Thank you for the warning. Much appreciated.
Interesting. Thanks coach
Is it 3in from the light or the power pack? Can wafers be put on dimmers and used in showers? Thanks
Considering these for my unfinished basement (new construction). Good to know!
What I'm not clear on from those particular instructions is whether that 3" is "AIR" space - similar to the clearance to insulation from all sides you see with certain types of can lights - or if they simply mean you can't get the electrical box through that hole without at least 3" above the hole.
It's a distinction that really matters.
I would guess the 3" requirement is for heat dissipation so it would need to be air. LEDs get hot.
It definitely shows a blocked out space above it saying do not have anything in this area.
@@ElectricalCodeCoach I definitely see the 3" clearance note - but what is decidedly missing is the typical warnings you see with other fixtures.
Is that because it's poorly translated Chinese instructions with fake UL listing - or is it because there is no risk. Most of these are virtually clones of one another, so I suppose it could go either way in that regard... and I'm not entirely sure I'd consider the omission from instructions to be a golden pass.
I'm going to setup a test with some leftovers I have in the exact configuration I have (with them basically enclosed in 1" polyiso foam with no clearance) and take some thermal measurements for science.
@@bradley3549 I'd love to hear back what thermal measurements you get. My wife is wanting to get these and I'm curious of the temperature readings.
Well as I recall all can lights need clearance be it incandescent, fluorescent, led there is clearance requirements for wood and insulation for heat dissipation and it must be followed for safety and you should always familiarize yourself with new products before installing.
You are correct, most clearances are achieved through standard boxes and connection to a non-combustible material like drywall.
The issue with some of the modern lights is that we're installing them inside of the ceiling.
However they do make IC rated fixtures that allow you to go inside the ceiling if there is insulation.
They also make these exact same lights I'm talking about that can go on studs and other materials but they have special ratings.
Unfortunately the cheaper ones do not have these special ratings.
Thanks for the comment!
Good information
I had sixteen LED Wafer Lights installed in my garage ceiling a few months back and there's six inches above them.
My electrician is excellent, and I base that on my conversations with him over the years.
I'd like to know if the three-inch height requirement here is due to heat transfer from the units or what???
I thought the only LEDs that get hot are automotive headlights that have a built-in mini cooling fan.
I have similar recessed lights. I've noticed they burn out quickly. But when we change them it is not the actual light but the junction box. What should I do?
Wow great to know because prior to finding a domed light from a different manufacturer I almost installed wafer lights like that recessed into a 8x6 timber joist yikes
Since, a lot of people use blown insulation, Maybe an after market baffle around the fixture would insure no overheating?
I would think that the install instructions would have a warning, " Minimum clearance from combustible materials" . My lights had the "3in min clearance", I assume that was for acess to the juction box.
Thanks coach for that heads up ESPECIALLY for someone who hasnt already had to learn the hard way !
Appreciate the great info. Every since I started using these, I actually don't mind putting in recessed lighting now. It makes things a lot faster and easier. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge. By the way, it might be a good idea to let us know the brand of lights that your buddy had burn up. It would kill my soul to think I put something in that did that. I know it can happen to any of us at any time, with any product. But if he knows a little more about what happened to the one that burnt up, or why rather, and to know if it's something the company addressed, or if it will happen again. It would be nice to know that for the future.
I'll ask him
Thank you very much coach ,for such great information , another ting that I wanted to estate was that most of this lights are not IC rated , what this mean that they can not being in contact with insulation or flammable materials . Let's get to it.
Mine are
I think these days most are.
Make sure you use those new connectors for your wiring makes the job a whole lot easier I forgot what they're called lock something and the pushing plastic grommets
They should have a type of screen cage on the back to insure for heat dissipation area
They also make some brands that do not require this clearance
Is the one you are using IC rated for direct contact with insulation? It literally says it on the rear of the fan lights I bought “IC rated for direct contact with insulation”.
They make these with an IC rating and they cost about 3x more then the one in your photos. Overall built better and materials look better, and even with the IC rating I still make sure there is enough clearance when installing. I replaced cans with these, as well as typical bathroom and hallway light fixtures. So far the Torchstar brand I use last about 4 years, probably 4-6 hours daily use.
PSA: LEDs *should* have a lifespan of over 10 years continuous. :-)
Good information my brothers proud electricians..
Man you are so helpful and spreading knowledge. Your much appreciated
I put about 50 of these in my home and have had to replace nearly all 50 at some point. AH lighting brand IC rated
Thank you
You are very welcome!
I use the Lithonia brand. I never had any problems putting them under joists.
I use the WF4 and WF6 all the time
3 inches of open space negates the simple plug in play install as you now have to support insulation. This is very timely. Thank you.
Great things to think about. I agree that device malfunction is a becoming a much bigger problem.
im trying to reach out to you from where i purchased the practice questions but have no tracking email or nothing to re download them and print them out again?
No worries! Just shoot me an email and I'll send you over a fresh copy
electricalcodecoach@gmail.com
I used a stud finder. Mount edit in the bathroom remodel in the new shower.
Over the past several years I have purchased and installed a couple dozen of these types of led lights. I have yet to have any issues with them. The only issue is wrt the electrical code..... why would the code continue to mandate the use of 12 and 14 gauge cable?? These lights only draw about 50mA. NEC and CSA need to get with the times. 19 or even 22 ga cable would suffice!!
The two biggest problems I see with the puck LEDs is a lack of a standard and a lack of warning regarding air space needed to dissipate heat. I remodeled my kitchen recently and used traditional cans with LED lights that screw into the traditional light sockets in them. I know I can replace them easily in the future without worrying about compatibility.
This is the best way, you create an air gap as well that helps the fixture stay cooler, further increasing light maintenance and life.
What's your opinion on the Halo quickconnect wafer lights that only have one junction box and can support several wafer lights on a low voltage cable?
This was just brought up at a seminar, I would be very careful with this there are several codes involved didn't catch all of it I may have opportunity to ask while I'm here follow up with me 423-895-3247
Thank you. The fire thing,, wow. Me thinking these things were fail proof is probably what 99% of us diy ers think. thanks
You're very welcome. Thank you for the feedback!
some of them are OK for direct insulation contact above. The newest ones change color with an app.
I installed 7 "Commercial Electric Ultra Slim High Lumen 6 in. Selectable CCT New Construction and Remodel Integrated LED Recessed Lighting Kit" in my kitchen ceiling with an attic with blown insulation above it. The instruction state they are IC rated but I am now worrying about the insulation being on top of the metal wire box and the LED fixture itself. Should I be worrying or do you think they are fine?
Everyone has to handle these things differently, typically if I find out that I messed up something and I can't rectify it I have to move on wiser.
And some of those are not IC rated so you can't install it on attic with insulation
Great info. My recently installed units like these did indicate they were ok with fiberglass batting but now I’m suddenly concerned.
Has anyone had issues with fiberglass in a ceiling space?
You can go back and pull up the instructions on the internet from the ones that you installed
There are brands that do not require this clearance
insulation above it a problem i wonder
Only problems we have had they don’t last, we installed in soffit of a dock and they will start blinking on and off on 1 setting of light and will replace them. Not easy over water.
You also need to have an access panel to get back to the box where you made up the power
Other problems with these lights: If one of these fails a year or two down the road, will you be able to find that same lamp to replace it? What about color temperature? Are they all the same and will the one you buy a couple of years later have the same color temp? When we had fixtures with separate bulbs, one could easily replace the bulb
I'm pretty sure the version that comes with a control box has full adjustment of the kelvins.
and make sure the fixture is ETL / UL listed.
The instructions for my wafer lights (Amico) do not say anything about air space or that it can't be installed beneath a wood beam. Probably hundreds of thousands of these have been installed under wooden rafters, etc. Other than it conflicting with the instructions you found, can you state any reason or give any example that it presents a risk?
Certainly, the temperature from these LED lights on the adjacent structure are a small fraction of a canned light with incandescent bulb nailed into a wooden rafter.
I have used these for almost a decade. I only buy Philips. My current house is 6 years old now and haven't replaced a single one, and I have probably around 50 pieces.
Good information, thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
I don't use them. I use either canless recessed lights or surface mount disc lights.
Thanks!
You bet!
Just buy IC rated and go to an electrical supply store to purchase at 75% less the cost of HD. Most slim line 4" pots are 3k/4k/5k colour temp, IC rated and dimmable, damp location. Wet location a tad more, make sure they are ul and cul approved for either United States or Canada...I haven't installed cans even in new construction in the last 6 years. We use a 4" smash plate or UFO i like to call em, run the drops and install slim lines...Cans are also more expensive, more time consuming, still require a bulb and trim.
In my opinion these are good as an upgrade from existing can lights. I have used them to replace older cans when one can in the room died. The can failed so since I had to go up to replace it anyway, I replaced all 4 with these in the existing space. This allowed me to mount the box to a truss and insure it could be accessed later if needed. Biggest mistake people make is NOT reading instructions - “I know what I’m doing” gets people hurt or killed. I have remodeled and/or flipped homes for years(35+) and even with a dining light, I read the instructions - does it require a metal box because of weight or will a plastic box be ok? Etc… I have seen ceiling fans installed on plastic boxes with sheet rock screws - a 1 5/8” and 2” holding the bracket to the box… and it was a 54” great room fan.
Wow! That’s a lot of weight on a plastic box!
Sounds safe.
My brother thanks for sharing knowledge.
Which ones you recommended for ceiling with no worries kinda easy to install etc.
God bless you.
With these lights you can change the game and put them on the wall you can actually even put them embedded inside of your wood door or even in the floor itself and light up the house from the bottom up and then you get a better accent lighting and shadowing effect to add to the esthetics and is the esthetics and mood.
Awesome info, so new construction has no issues using these, or do inspectors fail when they dont see Hi hats?
Plot twist! All of these come out of the same Chinese factory in different packaging 😅
I thought they all came from Mexico .🤣 Seriously
So do power tools.
Has anyone ever came across a clicking sound coming from the lighting diodes? Typically o ly when first turned on after they’ve been off for a while
Why, can you explain?
nice video
Wow I did know this I've installed many on studs
The only thing is they look like a can light but they don't have the wave length of light as a can light. I hope they have a warming feature to add more yellow into the spectrum.
Yeah man, they sell them that are color selectable
@@ElectricalCodeCoach For welding plastics we use quartz lamps for the inrared heat. And I was looking at how the design is how they reflect or what the theory and concept is and it's basically a high Tech canlight.
I'm all about the warmer colors too. I've got dozens of these in my home. You want 2700 or 3000 kelvin. 4000k is close, but that's already starting to get a little too "cool" for my taste.
Great video.
I love these lights and try to stick with Halo when possible. I like them better on new work because I can make fine adjustments for location ( around kitchen cabinets ) and can also add another if needed with not much work.
I only use Halo or Lithonia Lighting
It's interesting that you show this product today considering I was going to buy some this coming weekend instead of putting in canned recess flights I was going to do the led flat base
Install them with confidence…
That's because our phones are listening to us. I was just talking about installing recessed lights and now videos like this are popping up all over. Just like my friend and I were talking about real-estate in FL and then all I see pop up is FL real-estate. It's no coincidence.
@@frankrizzo7307 That is scary.
I bought a 6,3 inch holesaw that works perfect for theses lights
Thank you for sharing!
I think I bought it on aliexpress. It was advertised as fitting a 6" pancake and it does.
One other thing I would remind people of. All of the lights I have installed the box is only large enough to accommodate a single 14-2 w ground which means I couldn't daisy chain them which was a pain. If there is a brand with a bigger box I would use it.
What brand is good ? I'm going to be installing these in our renovation and I want to get a good brand. Thanks 😊
Juno and Halo are good brand in general but still check their paperwork on every light!
@@ElectricalCodeCoach thanks 😊
These fixtures are not UL approved??
There are a few lights that really make me wonder how they ever got UL approval. They must manufacture those stickers too.
Lol
They get approved based on their specs, but there are some of these brands out there that do not require the clearance
We have seen several of these being installed with no listing or labeling. I know some are but not all . . . Nothing prevents the sale of a non-listed item; installation is another story.
They are approved based on drawings and a written description submitted to UL for approval, but there is nobody form UL standing on the shop floor to inspect the manufactured product.
I recently purchased some of these for a new construction install. They are IC rated and ETL rated/listed but they are not UL listed. What does the NEC have to say about UL listing vs. ETL listing?
That's a great question! There are many nationally recognized testing laboratories, ETL is one of them.
I installed a dozen of these lights in a basement room that had rock wool sound insulation in the ceiling. This is a surprise they need 3” of space. I pulled can lights out because the insulation seemed to push then down and out of the drywall. The puck lights were the solution. There was no 3” of space.
There are some brands that do not require this clearance
I've got 15 of these to install in new construction with rock wool sound insulation. Because the joist are 2x10's, I have plenty of clearance above, but now I am leaning on pulling the insulation back away from the light and power supply with a bit of metal hardware cloth or other suitable blocking. I don't believe my instructions mentioned this 3" space but I'll double check.
@@RadioChief52 If it is true rock wool it won’t burn so you’d be ok. not sure how an inspector sees that rule. Probably won’t distinguish between rock wool non flammable and fiberglass flammable….
Sounds to me like somebody did a no no with cutting a hole and now the manufacturers have to put in some more instructions. User friendly version.
Question: Can these be installed in a drop down ceiling safely? I worry about the installation being a fire hazard.
If you mean ceiling tiles, they'll sag over time under the weight. You could put a piece of plywood (cut to the same dimensions as the tile) on top of the tile. Then cut through both the tile and the plywood to add the light.
I would check the manufacturer's specifications
Why not mention the brand?
It's more than one brand and I'm not here to put anybody down just to create awareness
It was definitely worth it to buy a cheap hole saw that matched the size of the light's internal diameter. Ceiling drywall dust goes everywhere along with all that blown insulation.
They have a dust shield for that!
Always follow manufacturer’s instructions.
Led puck lamps get hot just like any other light. They over drive these lights so they burn out faster. Buy UL listed lighting options. UL is insurance. If the light burns down the house, UL will pickup the tab and pass that on to the manufacture. Film your installs so when you run into a fire situation the insurance can rule your install out. CYA
I'm not even electrician but I watched this entire video and subscribed 🤙🏽
Thank you!!
Biggest thing I see is no strain reliefs being used
I hear ya…. Spent a few extra bucks to get the Eaton brand.
It doesn’t say in the instructions the reasoning for the 3” clearance. It could be that the light requires a 3” clearance to operate safely. It could also be that the manufacturer is trying to protect you from cutting through something in the ceiling when you are cutting the hole and it doesn’t have anything to do with the proper operation of the fixture.