Please keep in mind that the author of this argument is the owner of a company involved in test prep, and may have a bias towards the argument that grades should continue to be used in med school. I’m not commenting on the quality of his argument, just want to note the source of the argument and the possibility of bias
That is a great point! And not everyone has the desire or ability to get all A's in classes like Dr. J. I have personally experienced two different dental schools in the U.S., one being P/F and the other school being traditional grades. I am personally a lot happier and more motivated to learn as a dental student at the school with P/F system. Additionally, Dr. J pointed out it will be harder to place someone in a competitive field if they do not have a USMLE par 1 score and school grades. There are better ways to compensate for these. And there HAS to be a better way to select who truly deserves to go into a highly competitive specialty. Test scores do not equal how much you know, rather how well you can regurgitate the information during the exam.
Additionally, he said without board scores there is no way to assure the quality of physicians. Although you still have to pass a minimum competency exam which means you have adequate knowledge
Med student here. I consider myself a strong test taker; that being said, I think grades should be abolished because there is little evidence that being a good test taker means you will become a better doctor. You make it sound as if grades (such as step 1 score) are the only way to differentiate yourself from your classmates, but there are plenty of opportunities to shine in extracurricular opportunities. Also keep in mind that step 1 was never designed to differentiate students but rather to have everyone pass, and the importance of the score has increased only in recent years. You also make it sound as if grading systems are being used as a scapegoat for all the issues with mental health in medicine - I don't see why this has to be the case, why can't eliminating test scores be the first step towards addressing other issues, such as sleep deprivation?
As a fellow medical student, I completely agree. While it is important to understand the fundamentals, it is so much more important to know how to apply these fundamentals in clinical practice, which is what the clinical years teach us. Eliminating pre-clinical grades may give us more opportunity to start honing in our clinical skills earlier while giving us a better appreciation for the foundational topics.
Eliminating preclinical grades is already quite common. I even attended a school that was P/F first two years. Perhaps I should have made it clear that’s not the focus of the video. Clinical grades, Step 2CK, etc are more up for debate
What is the best measurement of how good of a doctor you will be? Clinical grades are even more subjective than test scores because they’re partially based on your attending’s personal opinions of you which may not be related to your medical knowledge, professionalism, and patient and workplace interactions.
Great video! Very interesting sentiments. I personally think a huge issue that many medical students face (especially new med students) is culture shock. During high school and undergrad, premeds are typically extremely hard working and smarter than most of their classmates. They are used to being top of their class and shining over others. Once med school starts, they are surrounded by students that are the same. They go from being excellent students to average or below average. It causes severe imposter syndrome and can definitely lead to this victim mentality because they're so used to success that they don't think there are any issues with their own ways.
I agree, and that is a big reason why students should find interests outside of school, so they do not tie their value/worth on simply their grades, and this is a big help for mental health
Personally,while the culture shock does have a big role,how taxing med school is on people is also an issue. Spending nights without sleep isn't healthy,nor is having almost no free time for hobbies. These factors simply compound the effects of culture shock. To somewhat fix this,students should be taught how to learn as effectively as possible. At the same time,things like 30 hours on call should be abolished(still continued in the place where I live and study) and students should be given more opportunity to gain experience(as that is what carries you most in the long run)
Overall,a better doctor is a doctor that isn't overworked,is healthy(to maximize their thinking capacity and power at full output),and doesn't have to wait 17 years to gain the latest info from research,while at the same time having a fulfilling personal life so they can radiate positivity.
Well, maybe they shouldn't put so much stake on grades and focus more on finding interest in the content they're learning. They shouldn't compare themselves to other students ("Ha HA I'm better than you and 'shining over others' in my class") and focus on doing the best they can do and help each other reach success in med school. The world would be a much better place without ego and inferiority complex.
As a recent (like 2 wks ago, recent) Step 1 taker - I will tell you from my perspective that going P/F is an appropriate response to the over-reliance of residency programs on Step 1 scores as gatekeepers. IMO, shifting focus to shelf exams and Step 2 (which assesses the more relevant CLINICAL aspects of training) is appropriate for advanced medical education. USMLE/NBME acknowledge that Step 1 was not designed to be the stratification system used by residency directors that it has become. In future years, P/F will allow program directors to put appropriate weight on a test that is ONLY about how well someone learns in a didactic (preclinical) training environment.
What we really need is more people calling out the bullshit of this right-wing framing. Nobody thinks equal outcome is the same as equal opportunity. It's a disingenuous strawman.
@@elizabethhenning778 The fact that people believe grades should be abolished proves you wrong. That's not the only example, there's people wanting to stop competition in many different ways. This is not about right or left wing.
i have taken many of your suggestions and implemented them in my high school and oh boy have my grades improved . i will tell you what at first it was difficult took time but now i feel like pro , they should teach how to learn in schools tbh .
@@aryanjain9746 ok i will start with 1) active recall : this one helped me with subjects like biology . rather than writting notes and rereading them , i read a topic understand it and write down what i understood . gives me a clear picture . 2) organizing : rather than going all in and getting little results i started planning that many of us highschool students dont . planned my upcoming test what i need to get done how i am gonna do it . little effort and u save a lot of time in wondering what i should do next . 3) i never really used flashcards they dont really sit well with indian educational system atleast for me .
we did that in sweden. Edit: Holy shit I just watched the video, and I think you're very largely misrepresenting. Yes, removing grades will make it harder to select applicants for residency. However, it will also remove the phenomenon of 'gunners'. When it comes to medicine we should really be helping each other be the best possible physicians. As long as you get an E, that means you have what it takes.
Good grades dont equal good doctors, people with good grades may not have good people skills, or even good clinical knowledge. Exams are just an artificial way to rank everyone because it is easy, rather than rely more heavily on interviews and referees which takes more time and effort.
Longtime fan/lurker on the channel. Family med focused second year medical sudent. Loved the video, and I really appreciated the point about how we should increase residency funding as a way to reduce a major root cause of why medicine is so competitive. I agree that having more spots and more resources would do leaps and bounds of good for the system. One major contention I would like to vocalize, is the underlying premise in this video (and others of yours) that "the hierarchy-based system in medicine is inherently good, because it allows us to pick the best candidates for the most challenging roles" Sometimes I find myself asking "How much better are these candidates from this high performing group as opposed to the candidates from the moderate or low performing groups?" "maybe some of these candidates from the low performing groups have the work ethic and visuospatial awareness required to do surgery, but are poor test takers?" If so, we may be robbing ourselves of the best candidates for a 'one size fits all' metric. To complicate things even further, it is no secret that income of a specialty is often a primary reason why students apply to it, which means that some folks burn themselves to the ground trying to match into a specialty which isn't the best fit for them. While I agree that we should award people on the basis of their merits, and that ranking our performances does help residency programs select for better performing candidates, the hierarchy isn't everything. Wholistic evaluation of applicants should have equal or greater weight than numerical scores in my opinion. In my opinion, some other major solutions that could reduce the competitive and toxic environment of medical school would be: -reducing physician income gap disparities by decreasing fee-for-service incentives, to reduce how stratified -reducing administrative bloat on doctors so they have more time to teach -decreasing the student debt burden, to decrease long work hour and moonlighting in residency -more exposure to the real, clinical environment of medicine starting in year 1 Again, Dr. J, thank you for all your content and the hard work you do to improve the system! I have nothing but respect!
Canadian medical school pre-clerkship exams are pass/fail. Residency matching is based predominantly on performance evaluations, personal letters of reference and interviews. The schools are able to determine if you're "passing" by scoring your exam and making sure you fall within a certain distribution from the mean. They give us those scores but they are never made public. Our system still has loads of flaws but I'm generally happy with it... I certainly do not study the most out of my classmates for my pre-clerkship exams - I make sure I understand all the concepts but do not allow myself to get caught up in the minutia that have no bearing on my future practice (I'm thinking krebs cycle enzymes-like stuff). Instead I spend my time practicing skills (I'm most interested in a few surgical specialties at this point),.and doing observerships over and above the prescribed electives. I do this so that I can try to decide what specialty is best for me, get as much exposure and make as many connections as I possibly can. I can tell you that even though I'm still in pre-clerkship I bust my tail prepping the night before ORs to make sure I'm at least semi knowledgable about the conditions we're treating and the overarching concepts for the procedures... Not only am I enjoying myself while learning loads, but I don't feel nearly as stressed as many of my classmates seem to feel and I feel like my approach is far more effective for learning (or at least for me it has been).
As a Canadian who moved to the USA, the problem with the system you described is it becomes a system of who you know. It becomes based on brown nosing, and relationships during clerkships rather than performance. Even the very opportunity to get outside clerkships can be based on who you know. Program directors then select their "buddies" for residency spot instead of who is the most knowledgeable and skilled. In my opinion this creates opportunities for discrimination. It creates opportunity for the bottom medical student to get into orthopedic surgery because their uncle is an orthopedic surgeon. Standardized scores create fairness where students are selected on a level playing field. In a standardized system it would be very difficult to admit your nephew who scored terribly into the orthopedic program as all the associate program directors and acgme would have access to the scores.
@@dominick6131 Super fair point - you are completely right. But I've found even getting into medical school is a lot about who you know. So like I said, I'm doing as many observerships as possible now to try to get exposure and to get to know people - at my school anyone can essentially do an observership anywhere but the onus is on them to seek out those opportunities.
@@MedSchoolInsiders I'm a bit disappointed you would post this massive oversimplification. I'd argue that interpersonal relationships with colleagues is still an important thing to consider, and is not necessarily nepotism. Likewise testing the ability to memorise the molecular structure of prostaglandins isn't necessarily meritocracy since it's unlikely to determine how good a clinician a person will be.
@@NEdwards193 i agree with both your points. Medical school applicants who have parents or close family members that are doctors can get in more easily to med school because they have made those connections to help them with things such as letters of rec or shadowing and volunteering opportunities. I think what makes a good doctor is not what amount of fine details you know but how you are able to apply your knowledge and skills in a clinical setting.
This video, is the first where I COMPLETELY disagree with Dr. Jubbal. The educational privilege and advantage here is screaming louder than what is being said.
I definitely agree with you, Maria. I was subscribed to this channel, but this video showed Dr. J’s biases considering he has a prep company. The way he ended the video also didn't help.
Based on the title, I came in expecting a very unreasonable argument. Fortunately, I was disappointed. This is a fantastic video, and all your points are incredibly well-developed. Keep up the good work, dude!
Thanks for this post. I really couldn't agree more - especially with your wack-a-mole reference. Eliminating grades and step 1 scores just puts more competition on research positions, volume/pedigree of publications, and other experiences that will now be required to bolster the ERAS app. Maybe I'm alone in this, but my take away is this: Now, instead of spending 2 years preparing for step 1, I'll spend 3 years prepping for CK without a dedicated period like the one given for step 1 - all while juggling more ECs to stand out and match into a competitive speciality.
Or you know make medical useful! I feel like med school and pre med bachelor is a complete waste of time. Where the actual work is in residency. They could actually make med school more efficient!
@@dominick6131 where do you find that information?!!! I can tell you every country goes straight to medschool after high school and I am not from the US FYI
Grades are important because thease standards reflect a student,s competence. Without grades the public cannot be ensured that their doctors are competent.
Students need to reframe their mindset. Learn from failures. As MSI said in the video, go back to basics. Learn to deal with the stress. Understand that tests are just an evaluation of your skills and knowledge at a fixed point in time. There I'd always the scope to improve.
Good video and perspective. The topic of medical school grades is definitely a complex one. In my own experience, the high level of stress for STEP 1 was a real issue given that this was an important part of opening residency options during the ERAS. However, the real struggles for most people was balancing the class work, which often did not correlate to what was on the boards, to preparing for STEP1. In addition, you had to also prepare to take your CBSE exam, which allows you to take STEP 1 in the first place. Medical schools will often make you repeat a year if you don't satisfy their internal requirements to essentially cook the books to make their success look good on paper. So you can imagine how STEP 1 can become much more stressful than it needs to be with the extra hurdles. I do agree that the culture of medicine is a big problem. I bought a book by Pamela Wible called, "Human Rights Violations in Medicine" that directly addresses this very problem. When we talk about burnout or stress, it's often an easier term for hospitals to use to overlook obvious cultural and social structures that cause hundreds of physicians to commit suicide each year. Yet this is something that we never talk about in medicine because we need to be "resilient" and be "tough". It's this exact way that we dehumanize people that can perpetuate abuse and the lack of worth in the work we do, which should add enormous value to our lives given our profession. Medicine does require longer hours and dedication than other professions but we shouldn't use this as an excuse to hurt or dehumanize people. This is what leads to lower satisfaction and suicides among healthcare professionals. If you get a chance, I would strongly read Dr. Wible's work; I know it's given me a lot to keep in mind as I head into my clinical rotations. Specifically, on how to identify behavior that is toxic or violates our rights as human beings disguised as "medical training". As someone who just completed their PhD, I definitely see how abuse and dehumanization come into play within academic institutions. It's largely built on a culture with power structures that reduce people's ability to speak up or get help out of fear of reprisal or backlash. I myself went to the free counseling sessions as my university to help with these issues I faced during my PhD training. It's a systemic issue not only in medicine. Though my experience was often painful, it's given me much more of a passion to treat my own students humanely and stop abuse when I see during my training. People often don't even realize they are hurting people. I routinely saw this with foreign professors, particularly from Asian countries, where people were expected to work long hours and not complain. Even talking to my post-doc mentors and other faculty, this fact was confirmed from their own experiences. And that's in addition to the racist behavior that they can experience from other people at their institution as well as with the UCIS. I'm thankful for their insight because it shows how cultural and social structures can make these sorts of toxic and dehumanizing behaviors normal. It's never just one person that's bad; we have to look at the reasons why such people get to stay in medical institutions. Most of the times, it boils down to A) This guy has a lot of grant money or; B) This guy brings in a lot of money to the institution through their clinical work. Personally, I believe such people aren't worth the money. In the long run, they cause even more issues than they are worth having. Overall, the issue on medical education dates way back to the 19th century and to the Flexner report. Many schools mistakenly thought that preclinical grades and grades in medical school would reflect your ability as a future doctor. News flash, it turns out that all these studies showed is that the only good predictors for your success as a clinician was your clerkship grades and colleague recommendation letters and evaluations. I think a great way to improve the system would be to develop exams by physicians that reflect the realities of treating patients. If the exams were more geared to improving your practical medical knowledge and providing more hands on experiences to reinforce these concepts, I think that would've provided a much better medical training experience. Exams can be a good way to make sure you don't slack off on your basic sciences because, unfortunately, they come up more often on your interactions with clinicians and attendings when discussing medical treatments or reasoning for choosing a therapy or why it doesn't always work. If we viewed exams as helping to maintain our knowledge, that would be more useful in the long-run.
1. Pre med is a waste of time. Too many draw backs. Create a combined Med school program like the rest of the world!! 2. Step 1 P/F I agree 80%. The exam sensitivity for being a good clinician was completely discordant. We were training a generation of memorizers and idiot-savants. Sure, you can memorize 4 decks of cards in 5 min but you have ZERO problem solving skills and you crack at any inconvenience above room temperature. 3. The next generation of doctors need to prioritize soft skills and to start specializing earlier. There's way too much information out there. And your phone will give it too you. Patients are more well informed. You need a skill besides memory recall.
This goes both ways, in the UK we have the Situational Judgement Test in final year which is so useless it may as well be a random number generator... To add to this it is weighted 50/50 combined with Med school grades for getting a foundation/residency job. Beware that an end to grades may mean a larger problem long term.
The most toxic test in my opinion is the MCAT, you have taken all of these science courses and in order to get into MD school I'm sure you did outstanding in said classes, but now you have to spend months studying for a test (as if it is a job) whilst spending upwards of thousands of dollars in order to do well on the MCAT, this weeds out smart people who do not come from upper class households, and forces regular people out of their medical dreams, that's why there is a shortage of physicians, and until medschools give more people a chance we will never see more physicians
Bit of a straw man argument here. A large number of medical schools have abolished grades, moving to P/F. You argue that by abolishing grades medical schools will be unable to ascertain whether medical students have achieved competency and met standards. That is nonsense. Students still must meet minimum standards, students still fail and are remediated. Even if we did eliminate all scoring in medical school, there would still be the barrier of passing Step 1 which establishes a minimum level of competency necessary to proceed through to training. You point to residency slots as being the bottleneck and cause of stress. That may be true, but I'd argue it starts much earlier with a system that selects for neurotic Type A personalities with obsessive compulsive traits. This is how we get students who have never held a scalpel, but nothing but plastics, ortho, or neurosurgery will do. Or those already building their derm research portfolio in high school because "Dermatology $peak$ to them". I don't want any part of surgery or the malignancy that infects many of the competitive programs, but having seen the skills and dexterity of my surgery minded classmates up close and personal I can assure you someone like me, who has spent years with hobbies like woodworking and microsoldering, is much more suited to those fields than many of those banging out 270s on Step 1. But generations of neurotic Type A obsessive students have become generations of attendings and PDs who select for prestige (high Step 1, first author papers in JAMA, etc) rather than relevant skills. So you're right it is medical/medical education culture, but I'd argue it starts much further back.
You point to a false dichotomy. Objective and subjective assessments are required. Only objective and you neglect soft skills. Only subjective and you get nepotism. I excelled in dexterity and surgical skill. Attends on all my away rotations commented on it. That helped with my subjective assessments and letters of recommendation, sure, but a surgeon is more than a technician. Dexterity isn’t all there is to being an excellent surgeon. All that you point to are downstream effects of the root cause. Competition is bred by supply and demand. Not a grade or test. 5th graders have grades, they aren’t pass fail, but you don’t see these issues with competition.
@@MedSchoolInsiders It's a false dichotomy of your construction. I never said dexterity is all there is to being an excellent surgeon, but things like dexterity and spatial orientation certainly are important. That being said, feel free to point me to any surgery programs which do their initial screen based on "soft skills" and (S)LOEs, rather than STEP scores and publications. They don't exist, much like any serious movement to eliminate all objective metrics of evaluating med students performance. It's just an excuse to whine about "participation trophies". As for the 5th grader red herring, they're not the products of 16 years of pressure selecting for a very specific personality type like med students are. Supply and demand are just part of the equation.
@@MedSchoolInsiders Just to address the idea that it's not a culture problem, but a residency supply problem. Does giving everyone a residency spot fix this? No. There are backstabbing gunners in FM and IM despite unfilled spots every year. Your bottleneck just shifts to attending jobs. Now instead competing for *a* residency, you're compete for the /right/ residency -- one prestigious enough to net the best salary, geographic location, or hospital. With enough surplus.maybe even a job period. The problem isn't supply and demand, it's selecting for the 90th plus percentile at every stage of the process and hoping at some point they'll just snap out of it and be happy settling for runner up.
@@MedSchoolInsiders (1) Where do you get the idea that exams are "objective"? (2) You do see grades causing problems for 5th graders, they're just somewhat different problems.
Hi Dr.Jubal, Great video per the usual. I did have a question, I have heard from other sources that step 2ck may be getting removed as well. Can you verify this from your own sources?
Hi Dr. Jibbal, Thank you so much eventhough this is not a motivational video to study but this helped me to realise what is the loop hole in my routine, I wanted to become a neurosurgeon and having my 1st Medical degree exams on March! Hope I'll be empower and do my exams well! Thank you so much for inspiring me as always ☺️
On the other hand, mental illness and stress is on the rise in the general population around the world. Social media and other stuff in the modern world can lead to stress so maybe it's not about the grades but it's easy to blame it on the grades (take it that im an average medical student when it comes to grades)
You have really great points but there is one factor that you are not considering when it comes to med school grades: collaboration. My school has ways for students to distinguish themselves, but grades are pass/fail. Because of this system, we all have each other's backs and often pass on resources/links to help each other with tough subjects. Example: we have Google Docs set up to work together and help each other pass exams. If this was taken away, there would still be collaboration, but only amongst a minority. Other than that, I agree on all your points for Step 1 (since this is more individualized as people take it at different times) and clerkships (same thing). My opinion is that every school needs to adopt ways to help students distinguish themselves for individualized prospects (Step exams, clerkships, etc.) while also doing their best to establish collaboration amongst students; this helps with med school burnout and fosters overall better physicians!
The whole culture in medical training is the root problem - why do the establishments make the medical students and residents in so much an life-work imbalance? Why do the hospitals pay so little to the residents?
I actually find taking chemistry a whole lot easier than anatomy because you don’t have to memorize as much. I would suggest getting a strong foundation of the base concepts. Once u understand the different properties different groups of elements have and the ways they bond to each other, you can apply it to basically the whole periodic table. I would suggest crash course, Bozeman science and the organic chem tutor as some great free resources on RUclips
Perspective from someone that currently lives that change since the medical school I study in adopted a pass/fail system. Everyone seems to prefer that way: no more academic competition, people freely share their resources, notes, ankis... it relieves so much pressure & we feel less guilty to take more time for EC. I'd much rather been judged on my personality, my experiences & my clinical skills than a numerical score that doesn't reflect at all who I am. Being good test-takers on paper won't change shit for our patients. I'm sure that cooperation & the "take time to do what you like" mindset will all make us much better doctors at the end of the day.
Hey Dr. Jubbal, great video as always! Would you consider making some videos about the OMFS track on either here or your personal channel? I haven’t found much on it in your videos and would love your perspective/insight on the field! Also any videos about non traditional students would be helpful as well. Great work as always and thanks for all that do!
if you are referring to oral and maxillofacial surgery, one would have to go to dental school first before you can apply for OMFS residency. I have not heard of anyone who went to medical school and got into OMFS. If someone has, please let me know!
@@jchoi1506 Hey! Yes, I am familiar with that route and that's the route I am trying to take but Dr. Jubbal makes the best videos regarding the pursuit of medicine. So I am hoping he makes a few videos on that track, what it takes, and the outlook of that career path with regards to income, job security, etc. OMFS is the most competitive specialty for dental students accepting only 3 max residents per year to my understanding so in all honesty, it would just be cool to hear his perspective on it.
Not to mention the changes in the USMLE Step 2 CS. Some of us who are experienced HCP's before we went/go to medical school will definitely be hurt more by this. While it's nice not to have that extra test, we have less to showcase for our knowledge. By far, I'm not a huge fan of the USMLE, this would have probably been an easier experience for me.
"The rules of the society doesn't apply to me. I'll sit in some remote corner of an academic campus, enjoying the benefits of the state and calling for it's destruction because I'm a global citizen." Give up the benefits of the state and beg for food- the way true seeker was expected to before.
If there are less positions and more candidates then there will obviously be competition. If you take grades out of the equation something else will take its place. Eg: Publications, Who you know.
Hey doctor, I’m só confused when I graduate high school I directly go to med school or I first go to college? And how can I get in medical school I’m 16 and I have to start to apply to college I’m so anxious 😟
I think you can get perspective and some guidance by doing the research about how you should take steps to your goal... it also depends on the country you're studying at...
Guys I need advice... I am in my junior year of high school and will finish senior year with if I’m lucky a 3.0 gpa. I screwed up my freshmen year and have been a A, B, and occasional C student. I’ve been thinking of going to med school but know as a fact I am not gonna get accepted, for this reason I think I might get a bachelors degree in Biology first and then try. I plan on starting collage asap I get out of high school, what does anyone think about this? Any advice as to what I should do? I’m stressing out and any response would be great... Thank you
You need to have an undergraduate degree to get into medical school. You can't go from high school to medical school unless you enter specific 7 year programs for high school students, but very few people enter those programs. If you really want to be a doctor you should be confident in your academic abilities, as you'll need a very high GPA in college to even be considered for medical schools. Good luck.
This entire video Iv’e heard nothing but facts. Competition is essential as for some people it is a motivating force that helps them strive rather than stress them. It all comes to how you look at it
Thank you Med School Insiders for spitting facts. Its crazy how ridiculous this is. How is making one Step 1 P/F bypass stress? You're only going to get stressed out about something else later. The simple fact is if students want to avoid competition and stress in general and get free money with an MD badge they should just quit and not do anything. Stay in bed.
Equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Victimhood < Empowered Mindset. Exactly. Sad that mass media and culture these days seem to condone and encourage equal outcome and victimhood.
@The Medical Enthusiast That's true. You're right so I'll correct myself to more truly represent my thoughts. True equal opportunity isn't possible (without implementing true communism) but at least in the USA, sufficient opportunity exists. And I think that's realistically what we should strive for. Sufficient opportunity for all, rather than equal opportunity.
Wow this is an amazing video. Seriously stole the thoughts out of my head and said them wonderfully. I’m so happy that you’re not afraid of being political correct and just saying what is the truth.
Have you ever watched or read something from Jordan Peterson? He talks a lot about opportunity, outcome and competition. What you said reminded me of him.
Only people who wanna abolish grades and the kids who feel insecure about getting low grades and dont work hard enough for what they want... if u score less in exams and pursue family medicine that’s cool! No problem with that.. but asking to abolish grades is like expecting to get into neurosurgery with low grades.. which is messed up... i strongly believe that you reap what you sow
I love that you always point out the nuances for each topic. Nothing is black/white and that is the simple truth
Well said
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(2020)Land Area
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(P/Km²)1Afghanistan38,928,346652,860602Albania2,877,79727,4001053Algeria43,851,0442,381,740184Andorra77,2654701645Angola32,866,2721,246,700266Antigua and Barbuda97,9294402237Argentina45,195,7742,736,690178Armenia2,963,24328,4701049Australia25,499,8847,682,300310Austria9,006,39882,40910911Azerbaijan10,139,17782,65812312Bahamas393,24410,0103913Bahrain1,701,5757602,23914Bangladesh164,689,383130,1701,26515Barbados287,37543066816Belarus9,449,323202,9104717Belgium11,589,62330,28038318Belize397,62822,8101719Benin12,123,200112,76010820Bhutan771,60838,1172021Bolivia11,673,0211,083,3001122Bosnia and Herzegovina3,280,81951,0006423Botswana2,351,627566,730424Brazil212,559,4178,358,1402525Brunei437,4795,2708326Bulgaria6,948,445108,5606427Burkina Faso20,903,273273,6007628Burundi11,890,78425,68046329Côte d'Ivoire26,378,274318,0008330Cabo Verde555,9874,03013831Cambodia16,718,965176,5209532Cameroon26,545,863472,7105633Canada37,742,1549,093,510434Central African Republic4,829,767622,980835Chad16,425,8641,259,2001336Chile19,116,201743,5322637China1,439,323,7769,388,21115338Colombia50,882,8911,109,5004639Comoros869,6011,86146740Congo (Congo-Brazzaville)5,518,087341,5001641Costa Rica5,094,11851,06010042Croatia4,105,26755,9607343Cuba11,326,616106,44010644Cyprus1,207,3599,24013145Czechia (Czech Republic)10,708,98177,24013946Democratic Republic of the Congo89,561,4032,267,0504047Denmark5,792,20242,43013748Djibouti988,00023,1804349Dominica71,9867509650Dominican Republic10,847,91048,32022551Ecuador17,643,054248,3607152Egypt102,334,404995,45010353El Salvador6,486,20520,72031354Equatorial Guinea1,402,98528,0505055Eritrea3,546,421101,0003556Estonia1,326,53542,3903157Eswatini (fmr. "Swaziland")1,160,16417,2006758Ethiopia114,963,5881,000,00011559Fiji896,44518,2704960Finland5,540,720303,8901861France65,273,511547,55711962Gabon2,225,734257,670963Gambia2,416,66810,12023964Georgia3,989,16769,4905765Germany83,783,942348,56024066Ghana31,072,940227,54013767Greece10,423,054128,9008168Grenada112,52334033169Guatemala17,915,568107,16016770Guinea13,132,795245,7205371Guinea-Bissau1,968,00128,1207072Guyana786,552196,850473Haiti11,402,52827,56041474Holy See80102,00375Honduras9,904,607111,8908976Hungary9,660,35190,53010777Iceland341,243100,250378India1,380,004,3852,973,19046479Indonesia273,523,6151,811,57015180Iran83,992,9491,628,5505281Iraq40,222,493434,3209382Ireland4,937,78668,8907283Israel8,655,53521,64040084Italy60,461,826294,14020685Jamaica2,961,16710,83027386Japan126,476,461364,55534787Jordan10,203,13488,78011588Kazakhstan18,776,7072,699,700789Kenya53,771,296569,1409490Kiribati119,44981014791Kuwait4,270,57117,82024092Kyrgyzstan6,524,195191,8003493Laos7,275,560230,8003294Latvia1,886,19862,2003095Lebanon6,825,44510,23066796Lesotho2,142,24930,3607197Liberia5,057,68196,3205398Libya6,871,2921,759,540499Liechtenstein38,128160238100Lithuania2,722,28962,67443101Luxembourg625,9782,590242102Madagascar27,691,018581,79548103Malawi19,129,95294,280203104Malaysia32,365,999328,55099105Maldives540,5443001,802106Mali20,250,8331,220,19017107Malta441,5433201,380108Marshall Islands59,190180329109Mauritania4,649,658
I feel like excactly the opposite happened. And I normally like his Videos.
Please keep in mind that the author of this argument is the owner of a company involved in test prep, and may have a bias towards the argument that grades should continue to be used in med school. I’m not commenting on the quality of his argument, just want to note the source of the argument and the possibility of bias
That is a great point! And not everyone has the desire or ability to get all A's in classes like Dr. J. I have personally experienced two different dental schools in the U.S., one being P/F and the other school being traditional grades. I am personally a lot happier and more motivated to learn as a dental student at the school with P/F system. Additionally, Dr. J pointed out it will be harder to place someone in a competitive field if they do not have a USMLE par 1 score and school grades. There are better ways to compensate for these. And there HAS to be a better way to select who truly deserves to go into a highly competitive specialty. Test scores do not equal how much you know, rather how well you can regurgitate the information during the exam.
THIS! 👏🏽👏🏽
Additionally, he said without board scores there is no way to assure the quality of physicians. Although you still have to pass a minimum competency exam which means you have adequate knowledge
not only is this video biased, it seems to be deliberately misleading, and possibly intellectually dishonest
I wish everyone the happiest lives they could live. You deserve it. You’re worth something, don’t ever doubt it.
Med student here. I consider myself a strong test taker; that being said, I think grades should be abolished because there is little evidence that being a good test taker means you will become a better doctor. You make it sound as if grades (such as step 1 score) are the only way to differentiate yourself from your classmates, but there are plenty of opportunities to shine in extracurricular opportunities. Also keep in mind that step 1 was never designed to differentiate students but rather to have everyone pass, and the importance of the score has increased only in recent years. You also make it sound as if grading systems are being used as a scapegoat for all the issues with mental health in medicine - I don't see why this has to be the case, why can't eliminating test scores be the first step towards addressing other issues, such as sleep deprivation?
As a fellow medical student, I completely agree. While it is important to understand the fundamentals, it is so much more important to know how to apply these fundamentals in clinical practice, which is what the clinical years teach us. Eliminating pre-clinical grades may give us more opportunity to start honing in our clinical skills earlier while giving us a better appreciation for the foundational topics.
Eliminating preclinical grades is already quite common. I even attended a school that was P/F first two years. Perhaps I should have made it clear that’s not the focus of the video. Clinical grades, Step 2CK, etc are more up for debate
What is the best measurement of how good of a doctor you will be? Clinical grades are even more subjective than test scores because they’re partially based on your attending’s personal opinions of you which may not be related to your medical knowledge, professionalism, and patient and workplace interactions.
Great video! Very interesting sentiments. I personally think a huge issue that many medical students face (especially new med students) is culture shock. During high school and undergrad, premeds are typically extremely hard working and smarter than most of their classmates. They are used to being top of their class and shining over others. Once med school starts, they are surrounded by students that are the same. They go from being excellent students to average or below average. It causes severe imposter syndrome and can definitely lead to this victim mentality because they're so used to success that they don't think there are any issues with their own ways.
I agree, and that is a big reason why students should find interests outside of school, so they do not tie their value/worth on simply their grades, and this is a big help for mental health
Very well said both of you
Personally,while the culture shock does have a big role,how taxing med school is on people is also an issue. Spending nights without sleep isn't healthy,nor is having almost no free time for hobbies. These factors simply compound the effects of culture shock. To somewhat fix this,students should be taught how to learn as effectively as possible. At the same time,things like 30 hours on call should be abolished(still continued in the place where I live and study) and students should be given more opportunity to gain experience(as that is what carries you most in the long run)
Overall,a better doctor is a doctor that isn't overworked,is healthy(to maximize their thinking capacity and power at full output),and doesn't have to wait 17 years to gain the latest info from research,while at the same time having a fulfilling personal life so they can radiate positivity.
Well, maybe they shouldn't put so much stake on grades and focus more on finding interest in the content they're learning. They shouldn't compare themselves to other students ("Ha HA I'm better than you and 'shining over others' in my class") and focus on doing the best they can do and help each other reach success in med school. The world would be a much better place without ego and inferiority complex.
As a recent (like 2 wks ago, recent) Step 1 taker - I will tell you from my perspective that going P/F is an appropriate response to the over-reliance of residency programs on Step 1 scores as gatekeepers. IMO, shifting focus to shelf exams and Step 2 (which assesses the more relevant CLINICAL aspects of training) is appropriate for advanced medical education.
USMLE/NBME acknowledge that Step 1 was not designed to be the stratification system used by residency directors that it has become. In future years, P/F will allow program directors to put appropriate weight on a test that is ONLY about how well someone learns in a didactic (preclinical) training environment.
When Dr. J said Equal Outcome is not the same as Equal Opportunity, I knew that I had to subscribe. We need more people calling out this bs.
💯 💯
What we really need is more people calling out the bullshit of this right-wing framing. Nobody thinks equal outcome is the same as equal opportunity. It's a disingenuous strawman.
CountryPopulation
(2020)Land Area
(Km²)Density
(P/Km²)1Afghanistan38,928,346652,860602Albania2,877,79727,4001053Algeria43,851,0442,381,740184Andorra77,2654701645Angola32,866,2721,246,700266Antigua and Barbuda97,9294402237Argentina45,195,7742,736,690178Armenia2,963,24328,4701049Australia25,499,8847,682,300310Austria9,006,39882,40910911Azerbaijan10,139,17782,65812312Bahamas393,24410,0103913Bahrain1,701,5757602,23914Bangladesh164,689,383130,1701,26515Barbados287,37543066816Belarus9,449,323202,9104717Belgium11,589,62330,28038318Belize397,62822,8101719Benin12,123,200112,76010820Bhutan771,60838,1172021Bolivia11,673,0211,083,3001122Bosnia and Herzegovina3,280,81951,0006423Botswana2,351,627566,730424Brazil212,559,4178,358,1402525Brunei437,4795,2708326Bulgaria6,948,445108,5606427Burkina Faso20,903,273273,6007628Burundi11,890,78425,68046329Côte d'Ivoire26,378,274318,0008330Cabo Verde555,9874,03013831Cambodia16,718,965176,5209532Cameroon26,545,863472,7105633Canada37,742,1549,093,510434Central African Republic4,829,767622,980835Chad16,425,8641,259,2001336Chile19,116,201743,5322637China1,439,323,7769,388,21115338Colombia50,882,8911,109,5004639Comoros869,6011,86146740Congo (Congo-Brazzaville)5,518,087341,5001641Costa Rica5,094,11851,06010042Croatia4,105,26755,9607343Cuba11,326,616106,44010644Cyprus1,207,3599,24013145Czechia (Czech Republic)10,708,98177,24013946Democratic Republic of the Congo89,561,4032,267,0504047Denmark5,792,20242,43013748Djibouti988,00023,1804349Dominica71,9867509650Dominican Republic10,847,91048,32022551Ecuador17,643,054248,3607152Egypt102,334,404995,45010353El Salvador6,486,20520,72031354Equatorial Guinea1,402,98528,0505055Eritrea3,546,421101,0003556Estonia1,326,53542,3903157Eswatini (fmr. "Swaziland")1,160,16417,2006758Ethiopia114,963,5881,000,00011559Fiji896,44518,2704960Finland5,540,720303,8901861France65,273,511547,55711962Gabon2,225,734257,670963Gambia2,416,66810,12023964Georgia3,989,16769,4905765Germany83,783,942348,56024066Ghana31,072,940227,54013767Greece10,423,054128,9008168Grenada112,52334033169Guatemala17,915,568107,16016770Guinea13,132,795245,7205371Guinea-Bissau1,968,00128,1207072Guyana786,552196,850473Haiti11,402,52827,56041474Holy See80102,00375Honduras9,904,607111,8908976Hungary9,660,35190,53010777Iceland341,243100,250378India1,380,004,3852,973,19046479Indonesia273,523,6151,811,57015180Iran83,992,9491,628,5505281Iraq40,222,493434,3209382Ireland4,937,78668,8907283Israel8,655,53521,64040084Italy60,461,826294,14020685Jamaica2,961,16710,83027386Japan126,476,461364,55534787Jordan10,203,13488,78011588Kazakhstan18,776,7072,699,700789Kenya53,771,296569,1409490Kiribati119,44981014791Kuwait4,270,57117,82024092Kyrgyzstan6,524,195191,8003493Laos7,275,560230,8003294Latvia1,886,19862,2003095Lebanon6,825,44510,23066796Lesotho2,142,24930,3607197Liberia5,057,68196,3205398Libya6,871,2921,759,540499Liechtenstein38,128160238100Lithuania2,722,28962,67443101Luxembourg625,9782,590242102Madagascar27,691,018581,79548103Malawi19,129,95294,280203104Malaysia32,365,999328,55099105Maldives540,5443001,802106Mali20,250,8331,220,19017107Malta441,5433201,380108Marshall Islands59,190180329109Mauritania4,649,658
@@elizabethhenning778 😑😑😑
@@elizabethhenning778 The fact that people believe grades should be abolished proves you wrong. That's not the only example, there's people wanting to stop competition in many different ways. This is not about right or left wing.
i have taken many of your suggestions and implemented them in my high school and oh boy have my grades improved . i will tell you what at first it was difficult took time but now i feel like pro , they should teach how to learn in schools tbh .
You're right
Yeah I did anki and Khan Academy practice questions every day for two weeks and got an A on my physics final in HS. Stuff works great.
what are some suggestions that helped you the most with studying?
@@aryanjain9746 ok i will start with
1) active recall : this one helped me with subjects like biology . rather than writting notes and rereading them , i read a topic understand it and write down what i understood . gives me a clear picture .
2) organizing : rather than going all in and getting little results i started planning that many of us highschool students dont . planned my upcoming test what i need to get done how i am gonna do it . little effort and u save a lot of time in wondering what i should do next .
3) i never really used flashcards they dont really sit well with indian educational system atleast for me .
@@idontremember8021 thank you!
we did that in sweden.
Edit: Holy shit I just watched the video, and I think you're very largely misrepresenting. Yes, removing grades will make it harder to select applicants for residency. However, it will also remove the phenomenon of 'gunners'. When it comes to medicine we should really be helping each other be the best possible physicians. As long as you get an E, that means you have what it takes.
Lol you def didn’t watch it. Also, no one cares about Sweden
why you gotta do Michael Phelps like that with the animation
Yeah that was pretty awful Lol
Good grades dont equal good doctors, people with good grades may not have good people skills, or even good clinical knowledge. Exams are just an artificial way to rank everyone because it is easy, rather than rely more heavily on interviews and referees which takes more time and effort.
Longtime fan/lurker on the channel. Family med focused second year medical sudent.
Loved the video, and I really appreciated the point about how we should increase residency funding as a way to reduce a major root cause of why medicine is so competitive. I agree that having more spots and more resources would do leaps and bounds of good for the system.
One major contention I would like to vocalize, is the underlying premise in this video (and others of yours) that "the hierarchy-based system in medicine is inherently good, because it allows us to pick the best candidates for the most challenging roles"
Sometimes I find myself asking "How much better are these candidates from this high performing group as opposed to the candidates from the moderate or low performing groups?" "maybe some of these candidates from the low performing groups have the work ethic and visuospatial awareness required to do surgery, but are poor test takers?" If so, we may be robbing ourselves of the best candidates for a 'one size fits all' metric. To complicate things even further, it is no secret that income of a specialty is often a primary reason why students apply to it, which means that some folks burn themselves to the ground trying to match into a specialty which isn't the best fit for them.
While I agree that we should award people on the basis of their merits, and that ranking our performances does help residency programs select for better performing candidates, the hierarchy isn't everything. Wholistic evaluation of applicants should have equal or greater weight than numerical scores in my opinion.
In my opinion, some other major solutions that could reduce the competitive and toxic environment of medical school would be:
-reducing physician income gap disparities by decreasing fee-for-service incentives, to reduce how stratified
-reducing administrative bloat on doctors so they have more time to teach
-decreasing the student debt burden, to decrease long work hour and moonlighting in residency
-more exposure to the real, clinical environment of medicine starting in year 1
Again, Dr. J, thank you for all your content and the hard work you do to improve the system! I have nothing but respect!
“I was more compelling applicant for plastic surgery” ... “now I don’t practice medicine”
Ironically, he burned out.
Part of his consulting business will fell apart, such as tutoring and residency matching coaching, with the abolishment of medical school grades.
this is so eye-opening. Definitely points at the right changes.
How tf do we reform the sleep deprivation culture??
An ignored but very important topic
i think taking grades out would help this
Don't go to med school
Don't go to med school
@@spideylover4105 i agree there is something sinister about the interests of the for profit schools
Canadian medical school pre-clerkship exams are pass/fail. Residency matching is based predominantly on performance evaluations, personal letters of reference and interviews. The schools are able to determine if you're "passing" by scoring your exam and making sure you fall within a certain distribution from the mean. They give us those scores but they are never made public. Our system still has loads of flaws but I'm generally happy with it... I certainly do not study the most out of my classmates for my pre-clerkship exams - I make sure I understand all the concepts but do not allow myself to get caught up in the minutia that have no bearing on my future practice (I'm thinking krebs cycle enzymes-like stuff). Instead I spend my time practicing skills (I'm most interested in a few surgical specialties at this point),.and doing observerships over and above the prescribed electives. I do this so that I can try to decide what specialty is best for me, get as much exposure and make as many connections as I possibly can. I can tell you that even though I'm still in pre-clerkship I bust my tail prepping the night before ORs to make sure I'm at least semi knowledgable about the conditions we're treating and the overarching concepts for the procedures... Not only am I enjoying myself while learning loads, but I don't feel nearly as stressed as many of my classmates seem to feel and I feel like my approach is far more effective for learning (or at least for me it has been).
As a Canadian who moved to the USA, the problem with the system you described is it becomes a system of who you know. It becomes based on brown nosing, and relationships during clerkships rather than performance. Even the very opportunity to get outside clerkships can be based on who you know. Program directors then select their "buddies" for residency spot instead of who is the most knowledgeable and skilled. In my opinion this creates opportunities for discrimination. It creates opportunity for the bottom medical student to get into orthopedic surgery because their uncle is an orthopedic surgeon.
Standardized scores create fairness where students are selected on a level playing field. In a standardized system it would be very difficult to admit your nephew who scored terribly into the orthopedic program as all the associate program directors and acgme would have access to the scores.
@@dominick6131 Super fair point - you are completely right. But I've found even getting into medical school is a lot about who you know. So like I said, I'm doing as many observerships as possible now to try to get exposure and to get to know people - at my school anyone can essentially do an observership anywhere but the onus is on them to seek out those opportunities.
Neither system is perfect but in broad strokes it comes down to meritocracy versus nepotism
@@MedSchoolInsiders I'm a bit disappointed you would post this massive oversimplification.
I'd argue that interpersonal relationships with colleagues is still an important thing to consider, and is not necessarily nepotism. Likewise testing the ability to memorise the molecular structure of prostaglandins isn't necessarily meritocracy since it's unlikely to determine how good a clinician a person will be.
@@NEdwards193 i agree with both your points. Medical school applicants who have parents or close family members that are doctors can get in more easily to med school because they have made those connections to help them with things such as letters of rec or shadowing and volunteering opportunities. I think what makes a good doctor is not what amount of fine details you know but how you are able to apply your knowledge and skills in a clinical setting.
This video, is the first where I COMPLETELY disagree with Dr. Jubbal. The educational privilege and advantage here is screaming louder than what is being said.
I definitely agree with you, Maria. I was subscribed to this channel, but this video showed Dr. J’s biases considering he has a prep company. The way he ended the video also didn't help.
Based on the title, I came in expecting a very unreasonable argument. Fortunately, I was disappointed. This is a fantastic video, and all your points are incredibly well-developed. Keep up the good work, dude!
Thanks for this post. I really couldn't agree more - especially with your wack-a-mole reference. Eliminating grades and step 1 scores just puts more competition on research positions, volume/pedigree of publications, and other experiences that will now be required to bolster the ERAS app. Maybe I'm alone in this, but my take away is this: Now, instead of spending 2 years preparing for step 1, I'll spend 3 years prepping for CK without a dedicated period like the one given for step 1 - all while juggling more ECs to stand out and match into a competitive speciality.
This amazing thanks for the great info
Finally, someone spoke up. Well done J!
The personal biases in this video are seeping 😶
Or you know make medical useful! I feel like med school and pre med bachelor is a complete waste of time. Where the actual work is in residency. They could actually make med school more efficient!
Reducing the years
Everyone except the USA and Canada goes straight to medical school after high school
@@dominick6131 where do you find that information?!!! I can tell you every country goes straight to medschool after high school and I am not from the US FYI
@@iroar5982 Yeah I agree, exactly
Grades are important because thease standards reflect a student,s competence. Without grades the public cannot be ensured that their doctors are competent.
Students need to reframe their mindset. Learn from failures. As MSI said in the video, go back to basics. Learn to deal with the stress. Understand that tests are just an evaluation of your skills and knowledge at a fixed point in time. There I'd always the scope to improve.
you should be able to progress through med school even if you fail every single test
"Life sucks, and then you die."
-Vince McMahon
Damn kid, it's all gonna be alright. How are you doing?
@@newgreenwichmd thank you very much for the concern, I'm doing well 😊. I was quoted Vince McMahon. That's all.
I think the subjectivity of clerkship grades needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.
A good test taker doesn’t make a good doctor
Can you do a video talking about CRNA and Anesthesiologist?
Good video and perspective. The topic of medical school grades is definitely a complex one. In my own experience, the high level of stress for STEP 1 was a real issue given that this was an important part of opening residency options during the ERAS. However, the real struggles for most people was balancing the class work, which often did not correlate to what was on the boards, to preparing for STEP1. In addition, you had to also prepare to take your CBSE exam, which allows you to take STEP 1 in the first place. Medical schools will often make you repeat a year if you don't satisfy their internal requirements to essentially cook the books to make their success look good on paper. So you can imagine how STEP 1 can become much more stressful than it needs to be with the extra hurdles.
I do agree that the culture of medicine is a big problem. I bought a book by Pamela Wible called, "Human Rights Violations in Medicine" that directly addresses this very problem. When we talk about burnout or stress, it's often an easier term for hospitals to use to overlook obvious cultural and social structures that cause hundreds of physicians to commit suicide each year. Yet this is something that we never talk about in medicine because we need to be "resilient" and be "tough". It's this exact way that we dehumanize people that can perpetuate abuse and the lack of worth in the work we do, which should add enormous value to our lives given our profession. Medicine does require longer hours and dedication than other professions but we shouldn't use this as an excuse to hurt or dehumanize people. This is what leads to lower satisfaction and suicides among healthcare professionals. If you get a chance, I would strongly read Dr. Wible's work; I know it's given me a lot to keep in mind as I head into my clinical rotations. Specifically, on how to identify behavior that is toxic or violates our rights as human beings disguised as "medical training".
As someone who just completed their PhD, I definitely see how abuse and dehumanization come into play within academic institutions. It's largely built on a culture with power structures that reduce people's ability to speak up or get help out of fear of reprisal or backlash. I myself went to the free counseling sessions as my university to help with these issues I faced during my PhD training. It's a systemic issue not only in medicine. Though my experience was often painful, it's given me much more of a passion to treat my own students humanely and stop abuse when I see during my training. People often don't even realize they are hurting people. I routinely saw this with foreign professors, particularly from Asian countries, where people were expected to work long hours and not complain. Even talking to my post-doc mentors and other faculty, this fact was confirmed from their own experiences. And that's in addition to the racist behavior that they can experience from other people at their institution as well as with the UCIS. I'm thankful for their insight because it shows how cultural and social structures can make these sorts of toxic and dehumanizing behaviors normal. It's never just one person that's bad; we have to look at the reasons why such people get to stay in medical institutions. Most of the times, it boils down to A) This guy has a lot of grant money or; B) This guy brings in a lot of money to the institution through their clinical work. Personally, I believe such people aren't worth the money. In the long run, they cause even more issues than they are worth having.
Overall, the issue on medical education dates way back to the 19th century and to the Flexner report. Many schools mistakenly thought that preclinical grades and grades in medical school would reflect your ability as a future doctor. News flash, it turns out that all these studies showed is that the only good predictors for your success as a clinician was your clerkship grades and colleague recommendation letters and evaluations. I think a great way to improve the system would be to develop exams by physicians that reflect the realities of treating patients. If the exams were more geared to improving your practical medical knowledge and providing more hands on experiences to reinforce these concepts, I think that would've provided a much better medical training experience. Exams can be a good way to make sure you don't slack off on your basic sciences because, unfortunately, they come up more often on your interactions with clinicians and attendings when discussing medical treatments or reasoning for choosing a therapy or why it doesn't always work. If we viewed exams as helping to maintain our knowledge, that would be more useful in the long-run.
Thanks for focusing on the finer points of this issue. So many people simply disregard nuance.
great video, good job. Simply amazing!
1. Pre med is a waste of time. Too many draw backs. Create a combined Med school program like the rest of the world!!
2. Step 1 P/F I agree 80%. The exam sensitivity for being a good clinician was completely discordant. We were training a generation of memorizers and idiot-savants. Sure, you can memorize 4 decks of cards in 5 min but you have ZERO problem solving skills and you crack at any inconvenience above room temperature.
3. The next generation of doctors need to prioritize soft skills and to start specializing earlier. There's way too much information out there. And your phone will give it too you. Patients are more well informed. You need a skill besides memory recall.
honestly, they need to find a way to shorten medical education starting from premed. Lots of wasted time
100% true that grades get the bad rep but it's not the underlying issue. Nicely said.
This goes both ways, in the UK we have the Situational Judgement Test in final year which is so useless it may as well be a random number generator... To add to this it is weighted 50/50 combined with Med school grades for getting a foundation/residency job.
Beware that an end to grades may mean a larger problem long term.
dont you just love watching med school videos as a computer science major?
Excited for this video, thanks Dr. J
Everyone is a winner and equal outcomes must die as concepts.
Awesome video!!
We can’t do that because in Indonesia we use GPA to apply for residency:(
The most toxic test in my opinion is the MCAT, you have taken all of these science courses and in order to get into MD school I'm sure you did outstanding in said classes, but now you have to spend months studying for a test (as if it is a job) whilst spending upwards of thousands of dollars in order to do well on the MCAT, this weeds out smart people who do not come from upper class households, and forces regular people out of their medical dreams, that's why there is a shortage of physicians, and until medschools give more people a chance we will never see more physicians
Hey! can you please make a video on how to fix sleep schedule....
Bit of a straw man argument here. A large number of medical schools have abolished grades, moving to P/F. You argue that by abolishing grades medical schools will be unable to ascertain whether medical students have achieved competency and met standards. That is nonsense. Students still must meet minimum standards, students still fail and are remediated. Even if we did eliminate all scoring in medical school, there would still be the barrier of passing Step 1 which establishes a minimum level of competency necessary to proceed through to training.
You point to residency slots as being the bottleneck and cause of stress. That may be true, but I'd argue it starts much earlier with a system that selects for neurotic Type A personalities with obsessive compulsive traits.
This is how we get students who have never held a scalpel, but nothing but plastics, ortho, or neurosurgery will do. Or those already building their derm research portfolio in high school because "Dermatology $peak$ to them". I don't want any part of surgery or the malignancy that infects many of the competitive programs, but having seen the skills and dexterity of my surgery minded classmates up close and personal I can assure you someone like me, who has spent years with hobbies like woodworking and microsoldering, is much more suited to those fields than many of those banging out 270s on Step 1. But generations of neurotic Type A obsessive students have become generations of attendings and PDs who select for prestige (high Step 1, first author papers in JAMA, etc) rather than relevant skills.
So you're right it is medical/medical education culture, but I'd argue it starts much further back.
You point to a false dichotomy. Objective and subjective assessments are required. Only objective and you neglect soft skills. Only subjective and you get nepotism.
I excelled in dexterity and surgical skill. Attends on all my away rotations commented on it. That helped with my subjective assessments and letters of recommendation, sure, but a surgeon is more than a technician. Dexterity isn’t all there is to being an excellent surgeon.
All that you point to are downstream effects of the root cause. Competition is bred by supply and demand. Not a grade or test. 5th graders have grades, they aren’t pass fail, but you don’t see these issues with competition.
@@MedSchoolInsiders It's a false dichotomy of your construction. I never said dexterity is all there is to being an excellent surgeon, but things like dexterity and spatial orientation certainly are important. That being said, feel free to point me to any surgery programs which do their initial screen based on "soft skills" and (S)LOEs, rather than STEP scores and publications.
They don't exist, much like any serious movement to eliminate all objective metrics of evaluating med students performance. It's just an excuse to whine about "participation trophies".
As for the 5th grader red herring, they're not the products of 16 years of pressure selecting for a very specific personality type like med students are. Supply and demand are just part of the equation.
@@MedSchoolInsiders
Just to address the idea that it's not a culture problem, but a residency supply problem. Does giving everyone a residency spot fix this? No.
There are backstabbing gunners in FM and IM despite unfilled spots every year. Your bottleneck just shifts to attending jobs. Now instead competing for *a* residency, you're compete for the /right/ residency -- one prestigious enough to net the best salary, geographic location, or hospital. With enough surplus.maybe even a job period. The problem isn't supply and demand, it's selecting for the 90th plus percentile at every stage of the process and hoping at some point they'll just snap out of it and be happy settling for runner up.
@@MedSchoolInsiders (1) Where do you get the idea that exams are "objective"? (2) You do see grades causing problems for 5th graders, they're just somewhat different problems.
Hi Dr.Jubal,
Great video per the usual. I did have a question, I have heard from other sources that step 2ck may be getting removed as well. Can you verify this from your own sources?
Hi Dr. Jibbal, Thank you so much eventhough this is not a motivational video to study but this helped me to realise what is the loop hole in my routine,
I wanted to become a neurosurgeon and having my 1st Medical degree exams on March! Hope I'll be empower and do my exams well!
Thank you so much for inspiring me as always ☺️
question still remains: what's a more fair way to rank students for residency?
On the other hand, mental illness and stress is on the rise in the general population around the world. Social media and other stuff in the modern world can lead to stress so maybe it's not about the grades but it's easy to blame it on the grades (take it that im an average medical student when it comes to grades)
You have really great points but there is one factor that you are not considering when it comes to med school grades: collaboration. My school has ways for students to distinguish themselves, but grades are pass/fail. Because of this system, we all have each other's backs and often pass on resources/links to help each other with tough subjects. Example: we have Google Docs set up to work together and help each other pass exams. If this was taken away, there would still be collaboration, but only amongst a minority. Other than that, I agree on all your points for Step 1 (since this is more individualized as people take it at different times) and clerkships (same thing). My opinion is that every school needs to adopt ways to help students distinguish themselves for individualized prospects (Step exams, clerkships, etc.) while also doing their best to establish collaboration amongst students; this helps with med school burnout and fosters overall better physicians!
Imma sit back and eat my popcorn 🍿 while reading the comments. Oof I didn't expect this was going to be a controversial topic 👀
Great topic 👏
The whole culture in medical training is the root problem - why do the establishments make the medical students and residents in so much an life-work imbalance? Why do the hospitals pay so little to the residents?
How do you study chemistry ?
I find anatomy much easier
I actually find taking chemistry a whole lot easier than anatomy because you don’t have to memorize as much. I would suggest getting a strong foundation of the base concepts. Once u understand the different properties different groups of elements have and the ways they bond to each other, you can apply it to basically the whole periodic table. I would suggest crash course, Bozeman science and the organic chem tutor as some great free resources on RUclips
Great video!
I think Jordan Peterson would be proud! Great job man!
Oof.
Not exactly a flex. Peterson is a political ideologue and his positions are largely discredited in respectable academia
Perspective from someone that currently lives that change since the medical school I study in adopted a pass/fail system. Everyone seems to prefer that way: no more academic competition, people freely share their resources, notes, ankis... it relieves so much pressure & we feel less guilty to take more time for EC. I'd much rather been judged on my personality, my experiences & my clinical skills than a numerical score that doesn't reflect at all who I am. Being good test-takers on paper won't change shit for our patients. I'm sure that cooperation & the "take time to do what you like" mindset will all make us much better doctors at the end of the day.
Hey Dr. Jubbal, great video as always! Would you consider making some videos about the OMFS track on either here or your personal channel? I haven’t found much on it in your videos and would love your perspective/insight on the field! Also any videos about non traditional students would be helpful as well. Great work as always and thanks for all that do!
if you are referring to oral and maxillofacial surgery, one would have to go to dental school first before you can apply for OMFS residency. I have not heard of anyone who went to medical school and got into OMFS. If someone has, please let me know!
@@jchoi1506 Hey! Yes, I am familiar with that route and that's the route I am trying to take but Dr. Jubbal makes the best videos regarding the pursuit of medicine. So I am hoping he makes a few videos on that track, what it takes, and the outlook of that career path with regards to income, job security, etc. OMFS is the most competitive specialty for dental students accepting only 3 max residents per year to my understanding so in all honesty, it would just be cool to hear his perspective on it.
Abolish the MCAT???? Talk about this please!!! Let it be considered
Can you please tell me which app/software did you use for making your videos?
Create a video on bullying in medicine and how to overcome that. I've lost all my interest in this field due to bullying by some teachers. -_-
Hi Can you please create a video of so you want to be oncology version please?
Well said as a premed students and doing poorly due to online classes
Not to mention the changes in the USMLE Step 2 CS. Some of us who are experienced HCP's before we went/go to medical school will definitely be hurt more by this. While it's nice not to have that extra test, we have less to showcase for our knowledge. By far, I'm not a huge fan of the USMLE, this would have probably been an easier experience for me.
Step 2CS was largely useless. Good thing it’s gone
@@MedSchoolInsiders I'm curious why you think that.
I plan on applying to vet school and I have no clue what the application will look like by the time I’m able to apply
I think that this is a great video, but you did Michael Phelps dirty at 4:20
Could you possibly do a video on pediatric surgeons or pediatric oncologist
"The rules of the society doesn't apply to me. I'll sit in some remote corner of an academic campus, enjoying the benefits of the state and calling for it's destruction because I'm a global citizen." Give up the benefits of the state and beg for food- the way true seeker was expected to before.
tfw when youre the last med school class to take a scored step1 exam 🙃
Grades are evil! ... (Proceeds to study extra hours for the upcoming physics 2 exam 📚 ☕️ 🤷🏻♀️ 😂 )
Nothing wrong with a bit of tough love!
IN senior year and waiting for this day...
If there are less positions and more candidates then there will obviously be competition. If you take grades out of the equation something else will take its place. Eg: Publications, Who you know.
Hey doctor, I’m só confused when I graduate high school I directly go to med school or I first go to college? And how can I get in medical school I’m 16 and I have to start to apply to college I’m so anxious 😟
I think you can get perspective and some guidance by doing the research about how you should take steps to your goal... it also depends on the country you're studying at...
So you want to be an optometrist oral/maxiofacial surgeon
What do you think of the canceling of step 2 CS?
Good riddance
How about we mandate that all of congress must use physicians who went to medical school with no grades.
Does anyone know of there's tutoring in PA and Medical school? I've always heard of study groups but never heard about tutoring.
Can u please do a "so you want to be a medico legal advisor"
Damn he did Michael Phelps dirty 💀
Guys I need advice... I am in my junior year of high school and will finish senior year with if I’m lucky a 3.0 gpa. I screwed up my freshmen year and have been a A, B, and occasional C student. I’ve been thinking of going to med school but know as a fact I am not gonna get accepted, for this reason I think I might get a bachelors degree in Biology first and then try. I plan on starting collage asap I get out of high school, what does anyone think about this? Any advice as to what I should do? I’m stressing out and any response would be great... Thank you
You need to have an undergraduate degree to get into medical school. You can't go from high school to medical school unless you enter specific 7 year programs for high school students, but very few people enter those programs. If you really want to be a doctor you should be confident in your academic abilities, as you'll need a very high GPA in college to even be considered for medical schools. Good luck.
@@ytsamurai1962 thanks, I know I typed the comment half assed😂 but I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to reply.
Title correction - "The Case to NOT Abolish Medical School Grades"
Nice motivating vedio for medical students👏👏
Can you make a video on physical medicine and rehabilitation (PMR) job, so you want to be a..../day in life!!! PLease!!!!!!
my school is pass fail but has grades its like what lmao
I feel like this video is very biased but thinks that it's being objective.
the solution is to have more medical school
This entire video Iv’e heard nothing but facts. Competition is essential as for some people it is a motivating force that helps them strive rather than stress them. It all comes to how you look at it
Preach it! 👏 Your explanation about victim mindset and an empowered frame was 💯 💯
Me a highschool student ;-;
Nice
Just commenting for the algorithm 🧡💛
İ totally agree with this👍🙄
Thank you Med School Insiders for spitting facts. Its crazy how ridiculous this is. How is making one Step 1 P/F bypass stress? You're only going to get stressed out about something else later. The simple fact is if students want to avoid competition and stress in general and get free money with an MD badge they should just quit and not do anything. Stay in bed.
Oncology next?
Plz plz "hematology/oncology"!
Equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Victimhood < Empowered Mindset. Exactly. Sad that mass media and culture these days seem to condone and encourage equal outcome and victimhood.
@The Medical Enthusiast That's true. You're right so I'll correct myself to more truly represent my thoughts. True equal opportunity isn't possible (without implementing true communism) but at least in the USA, sufficient opportunity exists. And I think that's realistically what we should strive for. Sufficient opportunity for all, rather than equal opportunity.
Wow this is an amazing video. Seriously stole the thoughts out of my head and said them wonderfully. I’m so happy that you’re not afraid of being political correct and just saying what is the truth.
Have you ever watched or read something from Jordan Peterson? He talks a lot about opportunity, outcome and competition. What you said reminded me of him.
Only people who wanna abolish grades and the kids who feel insecure about getting low grades and dont work hard enough for what they want... if u score less in exams and pursue family medicine that’s cool! No problem with that.. but asking to abolish grades is like expecting to get into neurosurgery with low grades.. which is messed up... i strongly believe that you reap what you sow
Your grades is for yourself NOT to think that you are better than those who have less grades than you!!!
Medicina 2021