High Purity Silver Refining (Lye & Sugar Method)
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- In this video I show the process of refining sterling silver using nitric acid to dissolve the sterling. Then, I use the lye and sugar method to precipitate out at least 99.67% pure silver. I also use XRF testing to demonstrate the purity difference between refined silver using the lye and sugar method and a US minted walking liberty coin.
Special thanks to a subscriber @frantiseklaluch6605, a chemist from across the pond, for helping me with my technical data!
I appreciate your views and subscriptions! One of the best ways to support my channel is by watching or playing through the metal refining playlist - • Refining Metals
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I watch a lot of refining videos just as a casual observer because I find the process fascinating. I can say that this is top notch quality! I enjoy the cinematography, the musical cuts, the cleanliness of your operations and working space. It's also very educational. Just really good stuff, so please keep the content coming. And God bless...
Thanks so much Justin. You know what they say... cleanliness is close to Godliness! May all your days be blessed.
I really like seeing the XRF saying how high of a purity you were able to achieve with that method of silver recovery. I find precious metal refining enjoyable and this was an awesome video to learn from. I just wish i was able to this myself.
Thank you! The XRF has really made me a better refiner, numbers don't lie! If you aren't able to refine yourself now you can always be a buyer of sterling or scrap metal. It's on sale these days. But not for long I suspect... I started collecting precious metals long before I started refining.
"What one man can do any man can do!" God bless.
I enjoy how you match up that glorious music to these amazing reactions. And a XRF for home use? Yes, please, I'll take one of those.
My wife will be happy, she helps me with the music and the production! She's an angel!
The best cinematography of any fine metal refining channel. On site diagnostics is something I'm not aware of from any other channel. I'm about to cupel scrap silver with pepto bismol (via Cody's lab) to get away from lead since it's a neurotoxin. Should be a fun experiment!
Thank you for the compliment, it means a lot! Good luck with the pepto, I'll have to check that one out.
That was fast adjustment... 😀PERFECT!
Thanks again for your help! It can be difficult finding the most accurate information and your comments have been spot on and very helpful. I hope you don't mind that I mentioned your channel in the description.
@@anthonythomasfmg Glad to help anytime. I'm honored, you mentioned me... Looking forward for next videos... 😀
Fun stuff buddy!!
Thanks so much! I'm working on some new ideas for silver cell coming up soon!
Thx for this video. Its very informativ and the music is nice.
Glad you liked it! Thank you!
Not sure if others have suggested an Emerson blender for the lye portion. But it works wonderfully
It’s always interesting to watch, but there are a couple of things to note. This process brings you to the same point as cementation on copper, but adds a lot of time and, 2 more steps and a significant increase in the waste quantity without any significant increase in purity. 2 9s is not very fine. Also, XRF is great for ensuring that your metal is actually silver, gold, etc…, but it should not be construed as anything approaching an assay. If you really want to get to 3 9s or better, you have to run it through a silver cell. And that’s what makes cementation on copper the better choice.
You make a good point but please consider the information that is in C. M. Hokes book on refining. Lye and sugar method will always yield higher purity under every condition than cementation with a fair amount of waste, "true", but cementation on copper is a collection method not a purification method and additional refining is needed for 999. Although it is a very good collection method, no matter the amount of rinsing you do some of the copper stays with the silver.
Lye and sugar does get to 999 by itself.
My understanding on the XRF is similar to yours but it is important to understand standard deviation of X ray fluorescence while reading results. 99.67 with a standard deviation of .33 means that the only metal picked up by the machine was silver and it's purity is at least 99.67 to 99.99% but no copper was detected at all. This is the highest purity that this machine can test. Everytime I put cement silver from copper cementation in the xrf, no matter the thouroughness of rinsing, the best reading I have found is 98.5 and usually lower.
@@anthonythomasfmg a deviation of. 33 shouldn’t be assumed to always add. You could be as low as 99.34. But this is being more than generous. The fact is XRF is not very accurate under the best conditions and actual assay has proven that there is virtually no difference in purity between these methods. The reason is obvious. As you stated, no amount of rinsing will remove all of the copper. You state that cementation on copper is not refinement, but collection. This is incorrect. Cementation is a method of precipitation. Converting to silver chloride will also cause precipitation and therein lies the reason why the relative purities are so similar. Both precipitation methods produce a very finely divided precipitant in a solution of copper nitrate. The copper contamination is thoroughly dispersed and no amount of rinsing will remove it beyond a certain threshold. That threshold is about 98.5-99%. The lye and sugar method not only doesn’t change this fact, but adds 2 more contaminants that also can’t be completely removed from the final product, which is identical in both methods. You can prove this for yourself by running samples of both through a clean silver cell and observing change in color of the electrolyte as the copper is removed. And in the grander scheme of things it is this step of the process (the silver cell) that is actually refinement. Everything prior to this is recovery. While Hoke remains the best source of information on recovery and refining for the small scale hobbyists, it must also be understood that a lot has changed since she wrote the book. Much of what was considered best practices in her day has been abandoned for good reason. We no longer premix the Nitric solution, for instance, because because incremental dosing has proven to be far more economical and produces less waste while eliminating the need to denox. And some processes, like the ones we’re discussing, have been shown to be superior to others that produce identical results for the reasons already described. There are reasons to use the lye and sugar method, but those reasons are dependent upon the contaminants and are not commonly encountered by the hobbyist. When copper is the primary, or only, contaminant, there is no benefit to using the lye and sugar method since, as previously stated, it adds 2 steps to the process, increases the waste and doesn’t produce any higher purity than cementation on copper.
@monadnockgems
@CuttinEJ
I'm glad you included this information!! I was seriously interested in the purity of cementing it out,
I've heard of treating the cemented silver with HCL to remove / wash out the last of the copper, but never heard purity results from that method, have you heard of that method or done that and tested at all?
Or as @CuttinEJ says, do you even need to?
I keep having issues with the lye/sugar method, but have no issues with cementing on copper, so if I have another option, if something fails, to still get close to 999, then it would be good to keep in the back pocket, thanks again for all the initial info folks
You're very welcome! Thanks for watching, I'm glad that it helped. I suppose purity is one of those things that I have fun taking pride in. At the end of the day we are only talking about a few tenth's of a percent, but I figure why not go for the best if I'm already invested in the process. As far as using HCL as a step to rinse out copper during cementation I don't believe this will work or won't work well. I have not done this because HCL acid is very poor at dissolving cooper. Plus if there were any excess nitric present your silver could turn to silver chloride. I have pretty much accepted that if I use cementation and I want high purity I will have to use electrolysis as a second step.
@@anthonythomasfmg, nitric acid doesn’t produce silver chloride. Hydrochloric acid does that. But only when the silver nitrate is in solution. Once the silver is in the mud form, regardless of the method of arriving at that state, hydrochloric acid won’t provide any benefit over distilled water for rinsing. And, again, the only way to remove the last of the copper nitrate is to melt the mud into shot and run it through an electrolytic cell.
Drill bit with a couple of zip tie on top would work fine, but the wooden spoon is poetry.
Ty for the formulas
Thanks for watching!
Nice job! Your video is very informative, I will definitely try this method. I did the precipitation with copper method, but no matter the quality of rinsing of the received silver, there was still a copper present in the final bullion.
Thank you for your compliment! Ya, cementation on copper is considered a collection method, a very good one at that. If you are going for high purity though you need to use addition steps. Cementation I have found gets to .98+ even with thorough rinsing and "silver cell" or "lye and sugar method" gets you 999+
Very good video, thanks, which I'll bookmark. Possible you could have gotten away with less washing out of the silver at the end, with 2 or 3 filtration steps. Have to be careful not to get bits of cellulose into the silver, of course. Or, having the silver/water mix in the correct size of large conical flask, use a syphoning device to carefully suck off the aqueous phase
Very interesting man. Thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching! More content coming soon.
After having done this a few times I realized you should never use a glass stirring rod during the lye sugar method unless you use one of those rubber tips. Your beaker will etch from the abrasion and caustic properties of the lye.
Great tip. Very true! Thanks for watching and God bless.
Try using a stir plate... works perfectly every time
Awesome video and your lab is very nice 👍
Thanks so much, your kind words mean a lot to me! May all your days be blessed.
Great video great explanations and right up there with some of the greats I'm sure you know a few of them on RUclips. Very good my friend. I am now a subscriber. 🤔👍
Thanks for subscribing and your kind words! I have some unique material coming soon.
I have that same coin. You must have a large investment in chemicals and glassware. Awesome how well you refine these precious metals.
I was blessed with a large collection of glassware that my wife found online which saved a lot of money. The chemicals are another story. Thanks for the kind feedback.
That was freaking cool
So glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching.
Great video
Thanks!
If you use a large Buchner filter (2L) your washing process will be much faster and minimize loss even further.
The part one was great- love the way you made silver shot.. the following videos with the music is just.. well, please dont use music in the videos.. great video work, great voiceover, really nice reactions 👍
Thanks for watching! I'll tell my wife about the music, lol.
The first time I did this method my finished silver had small iridescent spots throughout the bar. I wish I would’ve just held onto a small piece instead of reusing it for karat gold recovery and now my first silver cell. I wonder if it was due to some sugar or lye possibly remaining. I rinsed it until it was clear. I thought I did at least lol
An ASE has a walking liberty on it. It is just never called a walking liberty in a sales format or among most stackers. There are many coins that have the walking Liberty as a feature on them but only the half dollar is mainly called a walking Liberty. Numismatically speaking. The American Silver Eagle was first struck in 1986 and still has one of the highest and paid for premiums. Walking liberties are 90% half dollar coins that were legal tender for years.
Thanks for the clarification.
Being a coin collector myself, it’s painful to hear someone call a Silver Eagle a “walking Liberty”. I was expecting to see a half dollar. I can’t believe I got this far down the comment section before someone mentioned it.
You don't have to use hydrochloric acid. You can use table salt.
this is amazing, I really wanna try this but have no idea where to start and they best method (this one looks the best for purity) also where do you get all your supplies and do you have any recommended courses or videos covering everything Im super keen :)
Thank you for watching! I get many chemicals at hardware store (HCL, Sulfuric acid, Copper Sulfate) I buy harder to find supplies on line at LabAlley. Most of my glass I found on Facebook Marketplace. I recommend reading "Refining Precious Metal Wastes" by C.M. Hoke. and pay attention to your aquantiance experiments. I learn the most while experimenting. Happy Refining!
@@anthonythomasfmg thank you very much.
Is the acid solution at the beginning of the video suitable for stripping silver plated items?
Since it is such high purity can you go strait to bar? Or would you shot it, and silver cell it? Any ways thanks for the great content I just bought my first forge and am just absorbing everything I can about precious metal refining. And videos like these really help me out.
Cheers 🍻
Have you considered using electrolysis to dissolve the raw silver in HCl in the first place? process would give you AgCl & CuCl2 & not need all that nitric acid. The AgCl would then go to the standard NaOH/sugar process & the CuCl2 go to the cementing out with iron.
Thank you for the tip! I learned something new. I will give it a try. Makes perfect sense.
Buen video, solo comentar que no se lavo bien el cloruro ya qué aun se puede ver el azul pálido en la solución, te recomiendo sacar una muestra del líquido y agregar algunas gotas de amoniaco, si el líquido se torna azul indica que aun tiene Cobre en solución, no debe cambiar de color cuando esta bien lavado. Saludos desde Chile.
Is there any difference if U use NaCl instead of HCl in this process?
Have you ever tried using online distilled water. Wouldn't there be chlorine in the tap water contaminate the solution?
What a fantastic education!!! But what does et keeps the extra mean?
That is a great question! Out of 40,000 total views on my channel so far, you were the first to comment on that little gem. Unfortunatly, I can't just straight up answer that. You'll have to keep watching to find out more...
@@anthonythomasfmg will don't let me fall too far out of the loop, please. Maybe tag me someday so I don't miss it!! Great channel, look forward to your work!
You skipped the sugar?
yeah stirbars tend to get bogged down when theres a lot of heavy powder in solution, a better option is definitly overhead stirring.
True facts. Thanks for watching!
How much was that machine???
I was just about to say go get a spoon in a drill 😆 when the comet came up there's a better way to do this
Funny! Thanks for watching!
And what is the price of your XRF machine!?
In what way is this method better than simply adding NaCl salt to the nitric acid/silver which also precipitates AgCl? Also why not just heat the AgCl to decompose it to silver, rather than first converting it to silver oxide? I'm sure I'm missing something! I would be really interested to know - thanks.
Hi there, good question. My belief is that one way is not better than the other depending on what you need. Decomposition by heat can take quite a while so if your in hurry this would factor into my decision. Also availability of chemicals is always a factor for everryone. I like to know every way there is to get gold and silver into the pan. Thanks so much for watching!
I don’t know how much silver did u used at first??? When i follow u i made some mistakes and didn’t get good result
Most common mistake here is not rinsing your cement silver well enough. This method has quite a bit of waste rinse water. I probably had about 300 grams of silver. After you convert to silver oxide with lye and sugar, rinse and rinse and rinse.
Dam how much was that xrf machine
Would you be interested in assaying any of my metals or suggestions on places where I can get mine done locally?
XRF new is 20K I paid 15k for used but it has been worth it. Yes, I'd be happy to test some material for you. I charge $25 per result or 6 tests for $100. You cover shipping. Free shipping over $100. Text me at (920) 362-6820. Tell me what you want to test and I will call you back with shipping information, if you are interested. Thanks for watching!
Good piano @ 1:15; can you supply the name Please. Also, the video was excellent and I'm going to give it a try :)
Thank you very much! I will take a look and get back to you on the music. Glad you enjoyed it.
So how small of a sample can that machine read ?
Good question… I haven’t actually put a very small sample, but I would think 10 particles maybe 20. Much less than a gram for sure.
Is the XRF analyzer expensive?
You can find a decent machine starting at about $8,000 to $20,000. Kind of like buying a used car. Thanks for watching!
Would you consider testing other peoples sample of their precious metals work?
Yes, I would be happy to. Send an email to anthonythomas.us
Was copper in the alloy?😮
Yes (925 Sterling)
What is the liquid you poured into nitric acid?
HCL into Silver Nitrate.
So the xrf gun can be used for this?
Yes, and it’s my favorite tool.
not so pure... can you explain how to get 4 9's ?
Actually it is very pure. My XRF has a standard devieation of approx .33 on all tests. Meaning it can only read purity to approx. 99.66%. In this video the silver is most likely 999 fine. The only way to get to 9999 purity is by using electrolytic silver cell and testing on better equipment like mass spectrometer.
Aw I was hoping to see a bar get melted lol
LOL, I'll be melting some bars soon in my Lava Slide video. Final edit coming this weekend. Hopefully have it out early this coming week. Thanks for watching and God bless.
@@anthonythomasfmg thanks sir, fair enjoyed watching. I came from sreetips videos
Use bigger glass rod ...
Can I buy a little bag off the silver in Raw dust form. Just a couple grams
Sure can, if you go to AnthonyThomas.us and send a request using the contact page. I can get your information privatly and ship that out for you.Thanks so much for your interest! God bless.
Only problem with hydroxide and sugar method is all the waste
how to stir it easily? well first off stop using 5L jar for 500mL of material, maybe get a 1L erlenmeyer flask, ditch heating and just dump NaOH into the AgCl slurry, swirl it- over in a matter of minutes
My eternal questions will be "What do you do with the final waste solutions? How do you dispose of them? Is it safe to dump them in the toilets?".
All of the waste chemicals are treated in series to remove metals and neutrilize acids before being poured out. It is absolutly not safe to pour the waste material down the toilet without properly treating the waste first. Good question.
So then Am Eagles are falsely identified as 99.9%
Not likely, my machine has a varience and doesn't detect fineness to that degree. Mass spectrometer is needed to read 999+
for anything other than perfectionist...this is pointless...i can get around 85% recovery with random pre82 pennies in nitrate solution, not really worth the extra 3 days and 30 dollars of chems you only need small amounts of.
Nice job.
But....
your metals on your website are overpriced.
Thanks for watching! As I am building up some inventory I am keeping my prices high for a little while longer for this reason. I want to perfect my quality and consistency, and as soon as I am comfortable that I have a consistent product line I will be repricing things. My goal is to have everything consistent and properly priced by the end of January 2024. Thanks for the comment and God bless!
How much was that XRF machine?
Where did you purchase the testing machine?
gp-technical on E-Bay - They were fair in the transaction, but ask many questions before you buy. It's important to know what you are getting.