Bring Back Spirit
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- Опубликовано: 28 май 2024
- Healing has been a struggle in Dragonflight and bringing back healer gear in Spirit could be just the thing that could help the healing issues that started in Dragonflight!
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Игры
Just to clarify for anyone confused. I’m NOT talking about not casting spells for 5 sec or w/e, that’s vanilla type stuff.
Last version of spirit in mop was just raw regen regardless of casts
I think your thumbnail is leading to a bit of that confusion, as it’s the 5 second rule version
I loved playing healer in Cata this past week, but, having to stop to drink for 20 seconds is the ABSOLUTE worst gameplay loop.
Managing mana is cool during the fight but holy hell it’s 2024 everyone waiting for mana is terrible.
If they make this change make drinking do like 20% mana per second.
I think that's mostly at the beginning of the expansion, after a certain level of spirit you never have to drink anymore really (if I recall correctly). also int helps with mana saving too due to bigger heals per mana.
TBH I find that whenever mana is a resource to be managed, there is always a singular healer that can ignore the mechanic completely, therefore making them the BIS healer for that specific reason. I can't say I remember a time when mana management was a cool mechanic. Your pugs will never go "Wow you're such a good healer, you never run OOM!". It has no cool/awesome factor to it
People see that. There are many healers in m+ that are constantly 0 mana so it's very notorious.
Of course dps players notice it less...because they have no idea how healers play
I think this a good idea, but you have to remember why spirit was removed to begin with. Its often better to gear around throughput anyways cause you would get more healing per mana point when you do. The assumption being that you would have to choose spirit over say crit, vers, haste, mastery. This would be especially apparent in dungeons where you have sitting down to drink as an option.
I think the issue with mana has more to do with the ability for some classes to trade mana for throughput while others don't. Mistweavers and Holy Priests can spam spells for more throughput but a Holy Paladin doesn't have that ability for example. The other classes are somewhere in the middle.
This also still doesn't solve the hybrid healing issue and the defensive creep issue, and those would have to be addressed before any healing specific tuning can be done.
Still, specs like resto druid, resto shaman, holy priest and disc priests are vastly more interesting when actually having to think about mana usage. Currently we just vomit out whichever highest hps spells we have available. It's all focused around when you have your cooldowns available and nothing else. On my holy priest, pressing Heal is a waste of time. In any situation you are better off just using flash heal (if that person will die) or just dpssing until a better spell comes off cooldown.
The thing is in the past some specs could get mana regen for those throughput options. Holy paladins got mana back on crit for example making it a better option to stack it. It wasn't the mana regen stat that was the issue it was blizz tying mana regen to throughput that was the issue.
Mana regen across all healers is so vastly different. If I’m healing on my pally or monk I’m absolutely thriving in mana, meanwhile on the shaman or priest I’m dying for a drink every other pull.
Shamans out here THIRSTY fr
Now imagine adding spirit into the equation. Mana efficient healers wouldn't need that, thus they would have more throughput stats, while mana starving healers would be left behind, because they would have to actually stack spirit... I would definitely prefer for mana to matter especially in raiding, but adding spirit into the current game seems like a horrible idea to me.
@@tombenedikt3111 I would assume they would try normalize mana spending across all healer classes before they try to add spirit to the equation if that’s the case
@@Mboyd203 I agree, that would be necessary, but that would mean completely rework the current trees. They never gonna do that. If they see this as somehing to solve I am pretty sure, they're gonna look for other solutions than introducing spirit back. For example shamans didn't have mana issues almost ever. But they nerfed to the ground resurgence and made chain heal the only aoe heal and very inefficient if not used correctly.
I don't think i've ran OOM this entire expansion on my disc priest, even if people did a pull to another to another frequently, on my paladin however, it vastly different..
sounds like a nightmare for swapping between off spec dps
I definitely think they should making healing less bursty while making mana matter more (I might have commented this on another video) but I don't see them adding spirit back, since they committed to making sure that (most) gear is spec agnostic, and taking that away would probably be unpopular among a lot of people. Maybe they could bake spirit into mastery? (similar to how tanks have AP baked into their mastery)
Yeah maybe. Mastery for many healers feels pretty crap
Mastery sucking for healers comes partially from the fact that it doesn't help your damage. Which is why tanks get AP from it, because otherwise it'd suck for all tanks! Let mastery have a damage increase for healers!
@@Serphentin I don't think increasing dmg is the way to go. Taking from your idea baking mana regen rather than dmg into mastery seems like a good play to me.
Int giving mana and spirit giving regen is something I really miss.
There was a feeling of progression that just isn't there anymore.
Being able to cast MORE as you progressed felt good.
I feel like MW is the only healer right now that has any actual "Agency" over spending mana. We have HARD hitting spells that cost a lot of mana so making good decisions becomes important. Especially with "Mana Tea" giving us skill expression with mana return but also the 30% mana reduction buff after casting. Not many healers are in such control of their mana, its either dump or dont.
same shaman
@@devouringfamine2427 shaman has basically no agency over their mana. Mana Tide is rubbish and they nerfed the hell out of Water Shield and the other class mana returning talent. They just dump or don’t too.
@@CrippsyS bro shaman have problem in the mana...
Gonna have to disagree with the notion of bringing back spirit as a secondary stat.
I don't disagree that mana management is largely gone, but I don't think the solution is to bring back "healer gear". If anything, I would rather bake mana regen / spirit into some other stat.
I don't think adding spirit back is necessary. There's a reason they normalized mana pools and mana regen. But I wholeheartedly agree that mana should matter again. Healing has little depth outside of just planning your cooldowns currently. Particularly in raid, you always vomit out the highest hps rotational spell you have.
afixes doing stuns cut healing and doing damage more depth??
I don't know. From a gear perspective, it would limit what gear players could get. You are not going to give a mage or warlock gear that has spirit on it. What I COULD see happen, is do something similar to what Blizzard has done with tanks, where Spirit is a stat, but the only way to increase or decrease it is from one of the other secondary stats (such as mastery). I know with tanks, a portion of their mastery gets converted into Attack Power. So I could see them bring back Spirit but only Mastery is able to increase that stat. I know for a fact that Blizzard has tech that allows them to convert from one secondary stat to another so doing so with Spirit would work.
That is interesting!
I've healed since TBC, but playing around with mana regen and such has always been my least favourite facet of healing, especially given how much the complexity of fights has increased. Bringing spirit back is also going to lead to a secondary balance issue that was present before they removed it, where some healers had more prior on higher spirit gear to keep up with other healers who could go for straight output stats/trinkets instead because their healing kit took less or regenerated more mana.
I think Spirit can stay dead in the ditch it crawled in; good riddance.
I think they should just replace some of the throughput talents with mana regen talents. So you can easily swap.
Bring back MP5!
Jokes aside, i miss the days when mana management was a game within itself, and didn't mind having a couple more highly efficient heals to continue topping off while regening more than i was casting - Heal rank 4 was where it was at.
It would feel nice to have some gear that is no competition go towards healers.
Spirit and mp5 both existing like vanilla was the best imo. Could get mp5 and spam cast amd up ur regen or go spirit and have a conservation phase
Spirit regen was not activated by not casting for 5 seconds. It was activated by not CONSUMING mana for 5 seconds. Free casts such as Surge of Light or Inner Focus casts would not reset the timer.
Which means that rather than looking for times of not casting spells a modern version could include fishing for free cast procs or utilise abilities that make casts free.
Cata onwards had roughly half of Spirit regen going in combat so the above would be to get full regen for a bit
Take my point of view with a grain of salt, but I play holy priest and am one of the last healers on my team (Monk, Shaman, Paladin, Priest) to go oom in raids and I never need to stop for a drink in M+ and we have minimal deaths outside of a few one shot or full raid wiping mechanics not being done properly. I dont raid over heroic and I dont do M+ past +20 using old school system, S4 I havent done over a +10.
Another stat to keep track of and figure out where to cap it depending on your class, also spirit = nothing gained for DPS as skills like old school Molten Armor for mages where Spirit = crit arent coming back. No thank you. I see your point but the negatives arent being talked about here on a general level, its specific to classes which you cant balance a single secondary stat around other classes. Spirit takes away from thruput, meaning in the end you are going to be using roughly the same amount of mana as you would if spirit wasnt there and you had more of another secondary stats for some of these harder fights.
In general I'd like for Blizzard to consider spicing stats as a whole for after the war within. Now that the talents are fun again let's have stats that are engaging again because versatility will never be a fun stat and mastery is all over the place. Having only 4 stats and that's it in general is really not fun and make gearing so simplistic. The only thing you are excited about are trinkets which is quite crazy since it used to almost be the opposite.
lets remove the rose tinted glasses and remember the many many reasons they tweaked spirit for 5 iterations of the game then removed it. At the end of the day each healer had a number of spirit they wanted and anything over was wasted which felt bad. Then because this number was different for each spec say holy paladin had base regen and could just go full throttle crit while resto druid was stuck balancing haste caps, regen and mastery. At this point in the life span of wow mana resource management is the worst and most boring part of healing. The ability interactions and variety of cooldowns each healer has are interesting enough that having to do mechanics, set up or respond to damage and pay attention to mana is a noticeable issue for newer healers. If one could be removed from the equation it is definitely mana.
Good points. I think some people, especially those who have been healing a long time, would enjoy an added mechanic. However, I agree, that newer healers might have trouble with that.
So one thing I feel you missed since you started in Cata is how mana regen worked in TBC, which imo was the best time to be a healer in this game.
Back then, the healer had in combat and out of combat regen with in combat regen significantly lower, like a third nornal regen for spirit, and then there was MP5 which was over all less but didn’t change between in or out of combat.
The reason this mattered was because you were only considered to be "in combat" for the purposes of mana regen if you spent mana while in combat. Resto Druids and Holy priests abused this with clearcasting procs allowing them to heal without spending mana and there fore get max regen out if spirit. They would then follow this up with using something like Inner Focus, allowing them to extend their time "out of combat" for max regen.
Thus created a dynamic where spamming healers like Rshamen and Hpaladin loved MP5 because they always needed to casts but Druids with HoTs and Hpriest with their procs loved spirit. L
The bigger thing, for me, though, as a priest at the time, was that it made my mana regen an actual mechanic I interacted with and played around from swapping to spirit trinkets during my OOC phase to throughput trinkets when I knew high damage was coming to simply if and when I would cast and what CDs I would use.
This was the old school 5 second rule and I really wish something like it would return, even if its not the same simply something that requires me to interact with my mana and make choices instead of spamming like I'm a wanna be DPS would be amazing.
I always thought it took spirit to play this game ;P And tbh. I'm a fan of bringing back spell power, attack power too for DPS classes. It makes getting new loot more fun.
The checking of ilvl of the UHDK in the cata throne of tides killed me
I like the idea of our skill expression being managing mana efficiently with the ocassional satisfying healer "pop" like a less frequent Sheilun's Gift. Damage profile wise I think making unavoidable damage cap or have diminishing returns would help a lot.
My personal cook is to say that yes healers will have to DPS during downtime, and that's ok. Maybe instead of spirit gear (Which I don't trust blizzard to balance and scale well, it could even have repercutions in Arcane mages again) is to tie our DPS rotation to mana regen, like blackout kick does to monks.
Our DPS rotation is often dull, the most interesting imo being cat weaving. I am not advocating for bloating our damaging spells but to make them more satisfying to press and to be part of that eve and flow of sustaining mana long term.
Great video and great sugestion, I love spirit mechanics. Also think the 5 second rule was so much fun. Being limited by mana while being able to hold your heals in order to regen more was great. A great understand of combat mechanics was required and it was very rewarding when used correctly.
Push 👏🏼 up 👏🏼 health 👏🏼 bars
Heal 👏🏼 your 👏🏼 allies
Seeing how hard they nerfed mana regeneration trinkets this season, I would be surprised if they added spirit back for the expansion.
It is not hard to increase mana costs of spells and add spirit back
I healed some lich king classic and I loved the feeling of having to manage my mana spent, it feels so much better than retail in ahealer perspective. You can choose to dps, but it'll cost you.
I think every healer needs a spamable heal to dump mana and more control over active regen like MW's Mana Tea . For Shaman you could make a mana totem baseline that was just personal regen or bring back the old talent that gave you mana for lightning bolt casts. Evoker could have a mana rewind or something like Source of Magic that you put on the tank. Just an in combat button for regen.
an interesting pov! I started healing in Cata as well, on resto shaman. I did 25m heroic raiding and 10m heroic raiding, though the 10m group was the one that quickly killed heroic deathwing. On resto shaman, i tended to reforge away from spirit as much as i could. In a 25m environment of course, you'd want to pack on spirit to just be a big mana battery for the other healers with Mana Tide Totem.
Being low on spirit was a controversial choice, but I tended to dump all of my stats into thoroughput stats and depended almost entirely on Telluric Currents to keep my mana afloat. It was fun on fights like Deathwing, where the damage bonus shot my mana from bone-dry near the end of the fight to entirely full.
I really miss reforging. Spirit i could shrug off either way, but man. I miss reforging.
I don't like the idea of bringing back spirit on gear, some have suggested duct-taping it to mastery which I think is an interesting idea. But I think healers juggle enough trinkets and weapons when they multispec. Goes against the direction current gear design.
Blizzard has been trying to clamp down on most on external mana regeneration sources, with nerfs to Mana Spring, Source of Magic, and Rashok's Heart, etc, keeping them pretty weak.
Mana Potions themselves are only worth a pittance of 2 casts worth of mana.
On one end I think managing long term resources is an important aspect of a healer's job. On the other end, Mana doesn't really matter until you hit close to 0%. Even then healers can sometimes hobble through the ends of encounters.
Resources don't have to be only mana. Cooldowns and cooldown management can be a valid options as well.
The main downside is that if we decide that mana should matter, it will create more moments when a healer goes OOM and turns into a paperweight.
In M+ how fast you pull is outside of your control, so that PUG tank could just pull that party wrecking boss when you are at 15% mana. And if mana matters more than it does now, you are just up shit creek. (Yes the fault is on that tank, but adjusting to situations is how healing operates)
Perhaps mana could work similar to Whitemane's Desperate Plea does in Heroes of the Storm. Each time you cast Desperate Plea within a 4 second period, the mana cost increases significantly. Deciding who to cast Desperate Plea on and how often to cast it is critical to playing Whitemane as it allows her to heal her team with her damaging spells similar to a disc priest.
Applying this to WoW, Spells like Flash Heal or healing surge could be relatively cheap for their high healing but their mana costs could ramp up to prohibitive levels if you cast them too often. A mechanic like this could be built onto the micro level of healing where it only effects a few spells or could be expanded to encompass the whole kit.
Each spell in your kit increases your mana costs by some percentage for a period of time. Healing surge might increase the costs of your spells by 50% for 4 seconds but then Healing wave might only increase them by 8%.
The main issue I find with such a system is that it might only serve to overly punish players who aren't playing correctly. Healers already need to know, when the damage is coming in, and how they plan to deal with it, while also doing any mechanics and additionally saving people who make mistakes.
I'm all for the classic spirit. The 5s rule, the whole 9 yards. This also could bring back wands which have been a neglected weapon for a lot of casters for a long time. Some casters still cant transmog legion artifacts into wands. Wanding when you're conserving was how you did damage. Having better gear meant you could actively smite more. They could add volley wands or something else. Down time and thought and planning is part of playing well. It doesn't have to be all twitch reactions to everything. Healers are falling off the map in terms of representation. Tanks have gotten so powerful they don't need healers. The only thing left is for them to do affixes and try to deal with events designed to brick keys if they don't do them correctly. Healer fights are incredibly toxic for the community. Hirja & Primal Storm...its all just 1 persons responsibility to do correctly. Healing is a mostly thankless job and a very blame heavy job. It's time to make it more accessible and let people vibe. DPS just zug their way through keys with very little pressure. It's so weird that you advocate for spirit but not the 5s rule...and then talk about semi-pruning innervate while saying it would make symbols(AOE innervate) better. The real things that bypass spirit are the spells that remain active long after you cast them. Mending, Renew, Rejuv. These things allow you to heal "continuously" while being in the 5s window and are ways you can balance the classes. It was ok that druids had less value from spirit because they could spend more time in the 5s window and they had innervate. Shams had poor spirit scaling but they had manatide and manastream and other utility to use regularly so they couldn't get into their 5s window reliably and used more mp5. Paladins had bad spirit scaling but could use seals/judgement to autoattack their mana pool back to life. Idk I feel like this vid is a miss for me. I wish the game activity levels could be something other than global-locked. Blizzards painted themselves into a corner where it's groundhog day with healing power.
I remember spirit was still a thing in WoD. It was a stat for healers on trinkets, rings, necklaces and cloaks whereas dps had main stat and tanks had bonus armor
Yeah need a stat just for dps, one for tanks and one for heals. That’d be nice
@@AutomaticJakthat was a thing.
Spirit for healers
Hit rate for dps
Dodge/parry for tanks
Sometimes they change things that don’t need changing.
@@momentofenlightenment6004 A big frustration that led to the change of removing dodge, parry, hit and spirit was that 1) tanks and healers could not get dps gear for soloing content, and 2) loot would drop and it could only serve 2 people instead of everyone who wears that armour type.
It's the whole reason Healing Power turned into healing + 1/3 spell damage, then just spell damage, and finally just intelligence. Same with crit converting to parry, and what not.
I don't feel strongly either way, but if the game is all about flexibility, I'm not so sure that's the direction they'd ever take it.
Ah yes, the burstiness of damage in Pandaria raids was what made me drink a bottle of cider while raiding. Just one, but it took the edge off the need to be ready to throw a huge heal on a moment’s notice. I’d appreciate it if they could find a solution other than massive damage spikes going forward.
The issue with spirit is its evolution along the expansion cycle, the first tier you are always craving and not having fun because of not enough mana regen, while in the last tier you have so much spirit and so much mana regen, that you can overspend without repecusion... unless the fights are so brutal you have to heal 100% of the time. I begun to play in BC, and stopped hardcore raiding in Cata, and the cycle was always the same, first tier was a nightmare, last one was kind of a walk in the park unless the fights where absolutely crazy. Back there, when only raids really mattered and dungeons were kind of secondary, it did not matter so much, but in the current game, with the M+ system, either they remove the difference between tiers for mana regen, in which case, why have it at all to begin with? or the M+ will have some serious issues from tier to tier.
I'd be concerned with spirits tuning. It could be heavily required for some specs or not at all for others. Also, what stats would you have to give up for it? At the high end we're already trying to integrate vers w/o losing too much throughput and then you'd have to figure out how to squeeze in spirit. Sounds like a balancing nightmare and why it doesn't exist today.
Spirit gave healing depth. I would welcome that mechanic again.
The game is way more complex now, there is affixes to deal, harder mechs and maximized dps. Way more depht that use heal and not flash heal to save mana.
Not really, no.
What it did in reality was that healers were not only dependent on gear but also on DPS.
At least since BfA what I noticed was that I was able to carry an entire raid (~10 ppl) with my heals, even if we were lacking dps but in Cata you can't do that. The dps is carrying you, due to the mana issues. So factually does spirit not require you to have a brain but does the opposite. Less skilled players can play heal now and rely on DPS being good while not being able to actually contribute anything else to the fight.
As someone who has been healing since vanilla. No, please no. Spirit it not very exciting.
You shouldn't be able to carry 10 people. That's just bad design. Its an MMO, there is suppose to be a "holy trinity" cohesiveness. Healers are suppose to rely on DPS, Tanks just as DPS, and Tanks are suppose to rely on healers.
@@MrThebluemeow By "carry" I obviously don't mean that you literally carry 10 people and then can go afk. Guess it's my bad, I didn't think this would require an actual explanation. But I now I understand why people need an explanation why the spirit design in Cata is a bad thing.
Healer are not supposed to rely on the DPS, it's the other way around. Healers are literally there to make sure the DPS players don't die. Since when was the design of a DPS to make sure healers don't go oom? That's a side effect of playing mechanics, nothing more, nothing less. Not their main purpose...
A bad design is when a player has the skill to actually make up for the mistakes of other players but is not given the tools. There is a very good reason why this bad design actually changed.
What would you think of a “riposte” effect, where crit=spirit?
honestly i hate the idea of another stat to fix a problem that is just encount disine being flawd like healing in bfa was the best i have ever felt as a healer and we didnt have spiret just fights build around what we had yes ther was some problems with m+ healing but most of thos a gone now so if thy just fix the tooning of both our and the mops out put insted of over comblicateing stats also have a stat that only give resorse vs 4 stats that all make you feel stronger is so boomer disne spiret would have to give a form of extra power to the rest of your kit or it will just feel bad knowing you have to take it for mana but your numbers go down like the last thing i want to se on an upgreat is my numbers go down just so numbers dont go 0 at faster
The better way would be to give every healer a very mana efficient, or even mana neutral/positive way to heal (low numbers) and a pump/dump way. That way you are in control of your Mana. Sacrificing Stats for Mana regen feels bad when not every healer has to do so equally (balance issues) and is redundant when everyone has to do it (boring/cancels out).
I would love to see you have like a "round table" with other healers from top raiders/mythic+ guilds to some more casual/regular players and see what their take is on the current state of healing. If things like this Spirit idea could work by adding their own twists or even come up with something new. Not sure if it's doable but would love to see it lol
Would like to see active mana regen like mana tea for more healers. Telluric currents in MoP was so fun for resto Shaman!
I’d love to see spirit back, I don’t find super bursty healing all that engaging. I think it would also be good to increase the mana cost of damage spells so that spirit could be a stat you spec into if you want to do more damage on top of healing with more expensive spells.
I love this idea Jack!
it is harder to "utilize your mana resource as best you possibly can" if they have taken away many of the ability to effectively heal through pruning. IE Healing Ranks for mana cost, HEALING WAVE, SURGE, GREATER HEALING WAVE, different abilitys at different cast times use to exist you would give up cast time for less mana cost; that does not exist anymore so spirit alone wont let us go back to that
I've always thoroughly enjoyed mana management as a healer (and those high cost high throughput vs low throughput but mana efficient choices). Ofc I agree with everyone here that obviously aint noone gonna be pressing nothing during a fight in retail so.. probably not exactly an argument for spirit specifically, but tbh, modern day stats are like, not interesting, AT ALL. A sidegrade from the older version at best. Once upon a time it was actually interesting thinking about gear beyond "oh look this has 7 more ilvls so more int so yay". Oh and then mastery is super-specific and vaguely abstract in 2/3 of the cases anyway so the only way you even CAN get proper insight into your power level and how stats affect them is through siming anyhow. I mean, srsly. Sure we all want the complexity of the modern gameplay, but stats are just.. a weak, nonappealing aspect as they are. I vote for global overhaul (I know, I am a realist by heart =D ).
PS: the (sensible) arguments that people are making is that different healers have vastly different mana consumption/regeneration profiles and that would all need streamlining and so forth, I'd just like to add that back in the days of actual spirit existing, it was basically the same shit lol. Priest was constantly oom and pala/shaman never would be because their mana regen came from mostly talents (crits and such) anyway. *Which meant* that spirit was actually pretty useless for some classes, and extremely good for others. Which, you know, was actually neat, you didn't 'play the stats game' on 1 healer and understood them all, you had to relearn the logic of a certain class in terms of how *that class* related to stats (and yes, 1 singular 'variable' stat, mastery you need an actual computer to calculate the effectiveness of it, is just NOT fun). We also made sure there's mostly no breakpoints or anything interesting like that to aim for with haste, it's like Blizz just loves their stats in a state of excitement comparable to a bowl of porridge.
I mean, I understand the generally high expectation of balance nowadays, but the current stat system seems like a remarkably boring and bland way for Blizz to make balancing a bit easier on themselves. It's certainly not a particularly engaging aspect of the game as it stands. And that's ironic, because in the end the way they do all the balancing these days is usually just +/- x % of damage/healing for this and that anyway, so yeah it's not like stats are being used as the first line of defence for that purpose.
The need to manage your mana, to make decisions based on manacost was - especially in raid environment - not bad. I am still not sure I want spirit back. At the moment you are using a lot of fun abilities frequently. It would be extremely boring should mana push you towards using 1 or two spells 80% of the time. Getting no loot does not stop for healers because of 'spirit' on items. The moment you got enough spirit you are back in the dps-loot area. The item budget is also important. Does spirit count towards the item budget? If that is the case and you really need spirit on every item, it will be a big pain to get items with good secondaries. Or makes it impossible on some slots if Blizzard messes things up. Also , the raid would be really 'happy' to have even more items nobody needs at all after the 1 or 2 healers got something in that slot wearing that type of armor.
Maybe that could be compensated by reforging but that would make the gear 'dps' gear again. I am not really sure how a good solution would look like.
You could also just dampen non healer non tank heakiyjg in dungeons by like 90% so that healers would have to be the ones healing in m+ rather than everyone slowly getting topped by passive off heals between one shots.
I loved spirit and have no idea why they removed it, it was great, it made sense
i get the idea of this but didnt some people do a pulls on how healers felt about mana manegment as a gameplay hook and wasnt it overall negative?
I’m curious about it. Basically without spirit you’re at the mercy of blizzards mana tuning so you get specs like hpal who oom naturally casting their spells. Spirit at least gives you better agency
@@AutomaticJak i agree ther is a problem with hpal and press just going oom from just doing ther normal healing like mw did befor the new mana tea but i would rather them add them fixing mana in gameplay like mana tea and the telents buffing it so thers still skill in managing mana but it dosnt go on the stats but tbh idk how to handil it best i just really dont think spiret is the way to go
@@AutomaticJak also not sure quit who it was but saw it like 1 or 2 times on twitter in season 2 or 3 of df i think
I get not wanting mana to be solely in control of blizz but they still have power over it. cause if they add spirit natural Mana Regen gets nerfed and mana is balanced around spirit
it would be nice to be able to decide if I want more mana regain on a toon but realistically this now effects casual players who now have to play around getting spirit on gear adding an extra barrier to healing since not every piece of gear would have spirit and if every piece did have spirit what would be the point of the stat. I think retail is vastly way to different from older expansions to have spirit be an effective stat that doesn't overcomplicate something that was simple @@AutomaticJak
What the game needs is healers to be actual healers. More and proper healing checks. Not being dependent on good DPS even more while becoming more useless...
more burdens on the healers?Just because healers don't do much in the MDI doesn't mean that in real contexts it's the same way.
@@devouringfamine2427 Not more burdens but making healers actual healers. Healer should be healing in the first place but for years it is expected for a healer to do damage and this fact says that healing checks are poorly designed. If I wanted to do damage, I'd play a dps class... and now we even have aug evokers, so there is no excuse for healers not to be real healers.
@@shadowbanned3044 In all moderately well designed games the healer can do damage or control, doing healing all the time or all the time with healing check super boring
@@devouringfamine2427 There is nothing wrong with healers supporting with CC or interrupt, that's absolutely fine. Also, well designed healing checks are everything else than boring. The most boring healing in a MMORPG I experienced was in FF14, which is also why their healers are doing like 50% of the fight damage by spamming 1-2 buttons. THAT'S boring.
I am sure WoW will bring it back, unless they fail again and listen to some minority that's cluelessly yelling the loudest.
Also, it's a bad argument saying "other games do X and Y".... yes they might do it, yet none of them was ever as successful as WoW... (except for FF14 during Blizzard's court case, meanwhile it's not a secret and Yoshi P himself admitted and confirmed that FF14 only succeeded thanks to WoW.) So other companies doing the same mistake and failing with it, is not an argument for something being good. If anything it's proof for the opposite and the company's lack of improvement.
@@shadowbanned3044
All competitive games from RPGs or shooters, healers have the option to do damage, if you don't like to do damage, don't press the keys and that's it. It sounds to me like you're a pretty bad person who bothers you about having to do damage because you have to use more keys.
The problem is that mana regen and drinking was always the slow down that made groups put pressure on the healer. Plus, alot more bad players can play healer if they don't need to worry about mana.
The first issue seems like a matter of player perception. If it's expected that healers will go oom with heavy damage, hopefully people would be more understanding (a big ask, perhaps). To your second point, I would argue that gameplay should have tension in one form or another. Healing is already challenging for bad healers due to the heavy spike damage and the need to top people asap. I think a shift away from burst healing to mana management wouldn't necessarily make healing harder, but just change the nature of the challenge.
What about baking Mana Regen into mastery for healers?
the arcane mage when a spirit trinket drops gonna be like: "you gonna need that?" 😂😂😂😂
Nah.. he would say : this is mine. more dps.
I actually think that a more progressive way to adjust healers and how they interact with Mana is to go the way of most tanks and DPS in the game and turn Mana into a builder/spender style system.
Current heals that are "Efficient" like Heal, Rejuvenate, Vivify, etc could all earn an amount of resource to then be spent on some of the big ticket spells.
I think the best example of this working would be Holy Priest. Their Holy Words are already a builder spender and the only real interaction they have with mana is when to not spend it. If all of their current holy word generating spells generated "Mana" to then be spent on any Holy Word, I think that could prove to be a very solid gameplay loop.
To incentivize dealing DPS, for specs other than Disc, DPS spells would generate a decent chunk of "Mana" as well.
However, I do think this could be taken a step farther and they could give each healer a unique Build/Spend pattern. Holy power for Paladins, Holy Words for Hpriest, An "Absorb Meter" for Discipline, etc etc.
Currently the only healer that interacts with Mana in a meaningful way is Mistweaver Monk. Mana tea is great, but you also lose *so* many globals to chugging that thing in Raid.
It SUCKS when your only solution to a problem of mana is to not cast spells. I'm looking at you current Holy Paladin....
I just miss needing to heal as my priority. I hate the feeling like I need to be a dps that heals the group.
Appreciate the take but hard disagree. Spirit required not casting. What would we do to get the mana back? Auto attack?
Jak is referring to the MoP/WoD model, where it is basically MP5
Spirit would be awesome to have again.
What for? You will only contribute less to the group, while you will be more dependent on the DPS to not mess up more than they already do. A healer should not be the third wheel... there should be a difference between a good and a bad healer but that's not what spirit does. Spirit does the opposite, that even bad players can actually heal because it's all about the DPS playing well.
Genuinely hugely agree with you on this, Jak. Nice video.
-psy
Well I think a plus side of this is that healsniping early in a season would be reduced. Played healers all 4 DF seasons and always felt that at a point where you gained power the fastest healers gets the meters popping. The so called early bird gets the worm.
Dunno how they would sort the scaling properly with LFR, normal, HC and mythic, since it might hurt mythic more.
If spirit replaced intellect as our primary stat as a healer, I could see this working.
i love bricked gear my dps specs can't use - unless spirit is just randomly additionally on items, not impacting the stat budget
I think mana regen outside of combat should be increased by at least 500%. Managing your mana in combat makes sense but having to stop and drink in the middle of a timed instance feels outdated and bad.
This would be in the correct direction of the game. But spirit should dictate how much mana (or resources) you regen on resource regeneration effects.
Then make the gameplay revolve around you actively regenerating and spending mana.
Passive mana regeneration should be very minimal, or only exist outside of combat. Getting more spirit should generate more mana when you cast spells that generate mana.
Healer gameplay should be about efficiency and active mana regeneration through gameplay. The active mana regeneration gameplay can come from core filler attacking and core filler healing effects.
Example: Holy Priest
Smite would GENERATE mana.
Greater Heal and Holy Nova would GENERATE mana.
Then you have Flash heal that consumes a lot of mana but also heals ALOT (emergency heal)
Then you have really efficient heals that consume some mana but do decent healing, like divine star, Renew, Circle of Healing and PoM.
Then you have REALLY POWERFUL heals that basically fill Healthbars like Holy Words and Halo. Wouldn’t even need cooldowns on Holy Words because you make them cost a big chunk of mana then you cast your filler heals or dps to generate your mana back to use them again.
Then there’s options that can make these spells have different mana costs or power levels augmenting what spells you want as filler, power level or mana regeneration effects or crits regen some mana or procs that reduce mana cost etc. so much gameplay potential.
Make the game about efficiency and player choice.
I'd rather have mana regen stuff exist in talents then you can spec into output or regen flexibly rather than having to store a bunch of extra gear in my bag
Quit playing SoD at 35 because I didn't have regen, leveling was super slow, no gold or a mount. Haha.
Video is exactly 13:37 long lol. Coincidence???
And spirit on gear would mean that 15 people won't roll on the same item
Couldn't a lot of this be accomplished by applying nerfs and buffs to the base mana regeneration rate of each healer spec like they do in PvP? I'd be worried bringing back Spirit would just hard cap healer power progression in a way that tanks and DPS don't have to deal with through reducing how much of their other stats they can get. The other potentially unfun side effect of Spirit coming back could be that healers are running multiple gear sets for high end content therefore they're gearing for much longer than DPS and tanks are.
Video length 1337: based.
How about we just fix mastery?
I always spammed and just used mana back cds and pots to sustain a fight. Imo mana management is stupid and I don't miss it
Yes!
spirit should be fundamental to all healers in all content. classes that can both heal & damage are usually pretty op in general. off healing should sap the mana bars way faster so dps don't get silly ideas such as replacing healers with themselves... not a fan of healers doing dps either, I wish healers could not do damage at all or at least get their mana sapped from them just as fast as dps off heals should lose their mana.
You spoke out loud everything I criticize as well. Based True and Real I can't stand this heal snipe meta anymore. It's ok for the last tier raid of an xpack but not constantly
This would be great. Because if DPS screw up and get hit by everything. The group would be forced to wait and rest for the healer to regain their mana. Thus punishing the DPS for their incompetence without making the healers life miserable (which is Blizzards current approach).
ok sounds good but, going back to have to seat and drink here and there during a dung meanwhile the clock it ticking and team alook at u ..is meh..
That chat notification sound at 8:55 drove me insane for like 20 seconds before I played the video back
I would prefer they remove versatility from dps and and make it a tank/healer stat that increases the power of healing or healing received. then it would be very desirable for some but pvp'ers and some dps would get some benefit from having it too.
Cata healing is so perfect at low gear. This is how it should akways be.
The only good thing about Cata healing is that tanks (except DK) actually do need a healer. The skill ceiling on healers is EXTREMELY low tho.
@@shadowbanned3044 not if you drop healers aggressively
@@bidu2331324 Not sure what you mean by that.
@@shadowbanned3044 you don't know what dropping healers means? Lmao
I would really welcome spirit coming back because it would create a scenario where maybe one shot mechanics would not be needed anymore (or at least be reduced considerably). It would give the healer's role so much more importance, depth and control over the party's state, rather than just being the group's minion designed to make the dps' life easier by doing the boring fight mechanics, affixes and whatnot
I think adding spirit back just brings back too many bad memories. Some healing classes not needing it while others needed it so bad. They would have to make needed for everyone across the board. I'd like to see more things just have a hard cap on the number of casts that way you don't just spam constantly. While mana does this I've seen blizzard just let mana regen run rampant too many times. Not to mention it adds another layer of balance that blizzard probably wouldn't do well. My bigger questions is with how many healer content creators that are out there figuring out metas how much is blizzard using you all to improve healing.
Just go get the DoTI boots kek. But I also think a slower healing meta means healers can do more damage. In the past when I can trust my hots and my passive, efficient heals to top everyone, that gave me time to do dam, but now I'm spending every global making sure everyone is topped, pressing one damage global, then oh no, someone is at 90% I better make sure they get topped asap or they just die.
Make wow an RPG again :( id like to see them get rid of versatility and bring back role specific stats
Bringing back spirit and manamanagement could be great. They could also increase the mana cost of damage spells so its a more calculated decision to choose dps or healing. By buffing mana cost it would also be cool if they at the same time buffed the healer dmg abit to compensate
hi Jack! No.
yours truly x
im for mana regen stat but not spirit. encouraging not casting is bad design. or dealing damage to gain mana.
Read the pinned comment
Dont think spirit would work, in classic you used to wand when there is nothing to heal, in retail you always cast spells, so you wont get mana back. Mp5 on the other hand would be cool
Yeah I’m not intending them to go back to not casting spells. Sorry if the thumbnail is giving that impression. Last version of spirit didn’t make you stop casting or anything. It was just regen
@@AutomaticJak ok its actually my bad, cause i made a leap from classic/tbc to shadowlands basically. I did not knew there was middleground 😁
Please don't even suggest to bring back any kind of gear based mana regen. Cataclysm healing was only fun at the first raid because the health pools were relatively high but there was no one shot. You had time to heal and sometimes you had to burst heal for a mechanic at the cost of mana. It did not last because the higher itemlevel gear made mana management irrelevant so blizzard turned back to make damage bursty.
To solve the healing crisis just make health pools bigger and healers need to manage their mana by deciding how fast they need to heal someone. Active manaregen tools like mana tea can be an extra fun minigame to not just choose cheaper or expensive spell but use a mana refill rotation as well. Also this would also provide the devs an extra tool to balance the different healer specs' mana regen either by setting mana cost of spells or rewarding good gameplay and buff the mana regen rotation instead.
I don’t understand why you would want spirit back? The only time I find myself going oom is in early mythic raid progression. Which is normal while the team is learning the fight. Spirit sounds so boring. On top of that if it’s on your gear then that just makes off speccing even more of a grindfest. If it’s an additional stat like leech or avoidance then w/e but I would much rather go leech or avoidance.
Not gonna lie that sounds awful. I do agree that the way healers push up bars, mostly the time it takes, needs to change. But I don't think this is the way. The only thing I liked about your proposal was that some healers wouldn't care so much about mana, which are the only ones I would play in this scenario.
This would make harder for new players to get into healing, we already are lacking in healers atm.
Why?
@@AutomaticJak The scaling of INT and SPIRIT meant that the higher the gear the easier it was. So people starting out had the worst time and wouldn't be taken to groups.
@@Inverter222 if they're signing up to keys that they simply can't heal then that has nothing to do with Spirit. Spirit is only going to matter when your "pushing" content. If a +5 key is failing and the healer is struggling, its not Spirit causing it. They are just signing up for keys they can't handle yet as a new healer.
Bad idea. As a PVP focussed player this offers us absolutely nothing.
I mean you people already have your own indepedent mana tuning AND your own gear. It could basically have 0 impact to pvpers
As a healer: YES. It made healing require a brain and not just pre-planned cooldowns and reaction speeds.
How? That's so wrong... like... do you play Cata? Get the reality check there. Spirit means you have mana issues, which means the more the DPS players fail, the more you are in trouble and obviously at some point you are just oom and can't actually carry anyone, regardless of your skill level. That's a simple fact.
That means, if the DPS players are actually good, you barely have anything to heal, means = you don't need a brain.
Are the DPS players bad = you will be oom and have no tools to actually handle the situation.
This design, factually, removes player skill requirement on healers, so that even the worst players can actually heal... while the DPS players are carrying the group. If the DPS is too low or the DPS players mess up too much, there is nothing you can do, especially when you are not outgearing the content. This is actually a VERY bad design from a healer pov. You have basically 2 scenarios:
1. There is nothing to do
2. People mess up so hard, there is nothing you can do about it
Both is just bad.
“You just go oom and you can’t actually carry anyone”
Stopped reading at that, imagine thinking if your spec can’t carry others it’s designed poorly…
@@momentofenlightenment6004 Congrats, you then literally failed to comprehend what's the job of a healer. The entire purpose of a healer is to make sure that the DPS and tank are alive. There are barely any healing checks in Cata, it's mainly about DPS checks. That means a healer can be played by a donkey.
But I guess I see why you think a healer should be made as plain simple as possible...
@@shadowbanned3044 "if the DPS players are actually good, you barely have anything to heal" While trying to describe a possible scenario with spirit, this phrase actually perfectly fits the current m+ reality... If the dps and tanks are good, you don't even need a healer in a dungeon at all. They will CC everything and use their defensives at the correct timing so there is nothing to heal and they can survive one shot mechanics.
What they are suggesting instead is make the damage in dungeons heavy but constant (and partly unavoidable) removing the one shot mechanics part, which means more mana spent over time regardless of how your party is doing. Spirit is meant to make your mana an actual resourse to play around without the need of sitting to drink every 2 packs.
I personally think this way it is far better for healers to carry pugs because once the one shot mechanics are gone, you have a LOT of control over the group's situation (even if they're fucking everything up). There will be far less situations where everything is fine then suddenly one cast goes off and everyone dies (c'mon you cant possibly heal one shots like the casts of the balls of halls of infusion). Ideally, even if your group missed an important interrupt or a mechanic goes wrong it wouldn't mean insta death but actually more damage stacked up on the already existing, natural heavy damage, which would give time for the healer to actually react to try and save the group. "But wouldn't that be broken?" No! Mana would be an issue, you can't save the group forever! This concept is great because I personally feel the healer is meant to be the last defense of the group, keeping everyone alive! Not some minion you can order around to do the boring mechanics so your dps can stand still and smash their heads in the keyboard, that's lame.
@@shadowbanned3044 What are you talking about? DF is like the least agency expac for healers specifically.
Well I for one Absolutely do not want another stat to manage. A “how many times can I press these buttons before I can’t press any buttons” managing stat at that. It’s a no for me dog.
13:37
I'd rather delete mana entirely and balance all healers around cooldowns
Don't Bring Back Spirit
Yes and get rid of vers send it to the abyss with Nazoth
This is your first take I don't agree with.... I think you could have mana conservation be a talent option but not on actual gear.
no man. no. don't.