Thanks Nick. I appreciate it. My aim was to just present the data with my opinion and see where the discussions in the comments went. Also to put together something that stays relevant for the long term. I’m seeing the same trend in my new Model Y RWD that has 15000km on it now. The cells in the pack have now settled and stabilised at 1.6% degradation. This is more along the lines of what I expected to see and will hopefully see the degradation curve flatten out a fair bit. When I first got my Model 3 the LFP batteries were still fairly new to Tesla and the BMS was being updated constantly leading to some inconsistencies in the range at 100% for that car in the beginning. I am thinking of making a similar video for my Model Y at 20000km.
Don't worry too much. Charge as convenient for your life. 😊 In cars and chargers, there are many stages of battery protection systems, such as temperature control, controlling the charging current according to the battery percentage. The computer will control the various variables for you. 😊 Which is different from in the experimental lab. that supplies power directly to the battery Does not pass through any control circuit. 😮 Therefore, the distance that the car can go It will depend on driving behavior rather than the slight battery deterioration rate. 😅 And it is possible that you may replace your car with a new one before you notice that the battery has deteriorated.😊
Folks, if you like peace of mind about your battery (longevity & safety), for years to come, just charge your EV between 30% - 70% (and do 90% - 100% when going for a long Road Trip). (I own Tesla S & X, and I'm an Electrical Engineer) * High temperatures kill batteries. If you go on a holiday/vacation during the summer, leave your vehicle at a low SOC (state of charge). For example, at or below 30% SOC * Cycle within a narrow SOC range. For example: 40-60% rather than 10-80%. The cathode expands and contracts in a wider SOC range, which causes it to break apart. * On that note: The lower the narrower the SOC range, the better. That means charging frequently. * Avoid charging the vehicle above 75% SOC. Above 75% side reactions start occuring that cause degradation. This also reduces the volume expansion issues mentioned * Taking all variables into account, operating between 45-70% SOC, and storage at ~30% is ideal. * Occasional high SOC and wide SOC range are okay! For example, the occasional road trip. * With good thermal management hardware and battery management software, supercharging should have minimal negative effects on cycle life But even y'all will not follow those tips. The battery will not die tomorrow. it is just that there are some small (or big) consequences later on. Have a great day!
@@Rafa-qv8si NO battery is immune from Any Degradation, especially IF you fast charge them all the time and always in the 90's to 100's. Even big conglomerates like Samsung want you to charge their top tier Smartphone and tablet to only the maximum of 80%-85%, for the battery will last longer. And you can do 100% any Battery once in a while, to any of your devices, but not all the time, period.
@@Rafa-qv8si Yes these tips are more important for Nickel Cobalt type Lithium batteries. LFP batteries are not as stressed at 100% SOC. LFP batteries are more prone to cell imbalance so it is important to charge them to 100% at least once a week. This maintains SOC accuracy and is where most of the cell balancing is done. The higher voltage cells at full charge are slowly bled down for a couple hours after the charge has completed and balanced. It’s why the manual says it’s good to allow the battery to rest. This is good practice for overall LFP battery health. I would never advise anyone not to charge their LFP battery to 100% regularly but you don’t need to do it everyday. The bigger enemies to battery longevity are regular DC fast charging, over discharging (most important), and high charge or discharge rates when battery is cold. Regular hard acceleration is not good for your battery longevity either. I don’t want to take anything away from the points that Cliff makes as they are valid points, some of them just don’t matter as much with LFP chemistry and will make a minimal difference at the end of life. While the basic chemistry of modern batteries has not changed much the materials and construction have come a long way forward. Most notable is the construction and materials used in the separator layer of the cells. This sits between the cathode and anode and plays a big role in degradation and safety. The biggest question I have is over the assembly quality. None of this matters if the battery is poorly assembled or has moisture contamination. Tesla only started fitting LFP batteries to their cars at the end of 2020 so time will tell.
Great study! Thank you for sharing. It is the first time I've heard about the memory effect on LFP when charging to lower than 100% SoC. For me, it makes more sense, that the BMS is not able to balance the cells at lower SoC. And if it is not taken to higher (close to 100%) SoC often, it can easily happen that some cells are at higher voltage and cause the BMS to stop the charge before reaching the full capacity.
That is the same problem with the old nicad batteries’ battery memory’ of course it’s not that bad . To follow this post to extend the battery life , don’t charge over 70% don’t let charge fall under 30% but charge and balance the cells to 100% but not in hot weather and don’t super charge to often all to keep resale value on a vehicle that loses 60% value compared to 40% loss on a regular car,that can be totaled by a speed bump or a fender bender . This is a great toy and it’s like ‘ if you have to ask these questions you can’t afford it
@@ricmiller9624 it’s a little bit different to the Nicad batteries. People exaggerate this issue and I felt the need to explain how it’s not a big deal. It’s also not a big deal charging an EV. You make it sound complicated when it’s actually not. With LFP there is no need to only charge to 70% or not discharge below 30%. I found resale was ok when I sold my model 3 and compatible to other cars I have sold in the past of a similar age. Every car I ever owned has a had a poor resale and with petrol and diesel cars it will get much worse. Cars are just a bad investment full stop. I sold my model 3 just as the new model 3 was announced so took a bigger hit of around $15000 less than what I paid for it after 2.5yrs. This is another thing that is exaggerated and very subjective to where you live and what is happening in your local market. EV sales are booming here in Australia and there are a lot of second hand model 3s on the market as people upgrade to the new M3 or upsize to the MY like I did. Tesla offer pretty low trade in values but so does every dealer.
@@notinthemanual you did a great report on this subject, if you have a home charger and you stay with in your rv range it’s worth every penny but to go beyond that on any consistent basis or just to go on a road less traveled you are amping up your plans and the risks increase. This ev industry can only get better with an increase in electric production, every ev uses when you fill up is 2 or 3 times a household use this is unacceptable. Just look up truckers electric needs at a distribution center even a small center would dwarf a city’s electric consumption. This is a very important technology but to push this hard is only lead to destruction, just look ahead this is not to mention there’s not enough the precious metals to transition the world in the projected time frame. It’s not been thought out Thanks man for the reply
@@ricmiller9624 It’s each to their own as far as I’m concerned. I’m not about to tell everyone what car they should have and I expect people to treat me the same. An EV works for me even when I go remote and long distances here in Australia. There is always somewhere to charge. When you go remote you just need to plan better. It just depends how you look at it. I used to think the same until I owned one. 3yrs into EV ownership I’ll never go back. 90% of the energy for my car comes from excess solar but I have so many options to source electricity from but limited to gas stations for fuel. You can’t look at the energy the same way. A tank of fuel in a car could run a generator and power a house for more than a day. The diesel in the tanks of a large truck could be used to run a very large generator and generate large amounts of electricity. EV are many times more efficient so it comes down to how you want to view it. It’s all energy.
Hi Matt, thank you for a very insightful and informative video regarding the LFP battery, you definitly settled a lot of uncertainties for new EV owners and busted a large number of batty-related myths! Thank you kindly for your thorough study and contribution to the EV community!
Thanks for posting on this - it helps. I have a 2022 RWD (60 kW LFP) and have now had it 21 months (nearly 2 years). The indicated range has gone from 438km to 418km (if that is anything to go by, which I doubt, then degradation is 4.5%). Certainly I haven't noticed a significant range drop in actual driving (I have done the same 365km route a number of times over the time I have had the car and arrive with similar amounts of battery left). I particularly like the balanced handling of the car on our NZ windy roads and to me ,with its instant torque, it feels quicker than specs indicate.
Thanks for sharing your stats. The comments section is just as useful as my videos. I loved my Model 3 and felt the same about the performance. Unless you’re racing around a track at high speeds the handling is more than enough for most people. Even now that I’ve upgraded to a Y I feel it handles very well for an SUV. With range most people won’t even notice 5-10% degradation as it is well within any safety margin you would have between charging stops. Around the city it’s even less of a concern.
2023 RWD Model 3 - 17 months (53500 kms) Started at 441 kms and now at 420 km at 100%. Always plugged in while not in use, always to 100% because its LFP.
@@oggyoggy1299 I doubted it because its just an indication of range and subject to the algorithm Tesla uses which may have changed over this time. Subsequently I now have "Scan my Tesla" set up, and it appears that the data pretty much backs the millage drop. As of August 2024 (car now about 2.5 years old), the drop is about 5.7% (battery health at 94.3%). If it kept degrading at the rate the car would be at 77% capacity left at 10 years old (which is still usable) - however data from older model 3's suggests the degradation rate slows significantly after 2 - 3 years and so I expect it will be significantly better than that at 10 years.
Thanks for this. Just as a comparo, my Model Y RWD LFP had a range when new of 435 km (Nov 22). I now have 31000 km on the car and the range is displaying 429, about 1.5% degradation. As you can tell I do a lot of driving so 2/3 of my charging has been DC fast charging (about half Tesla and half others like Evie). I top up to 100% at least twice a week, but only on AC. Haven't used Teslafi...pity.
I still feel my theory is right about most of my range degradation being software related. I lost a big chunk back in 2021 when Tesla reconfigured the range display calculation. I only use the energy app now on long trips and leave % displayed. Much more useful.
@@kutrix2010 Thanks kutrix. That’s great. I think the newer models will see less range loss as they have had less changes to how the range is calculated. Mine had several adjustments to the fixed range display calculation early in its life with software updates.
I did get Tesla Y sr with Lft battery so thanks for this video. I was getting worried of charging to 100%. Got point about supercharging not being the best for the battery.
Its a normal behavour for LFP batteries to degrade a bit more within the first 100 cycles or so. The recommandation charging to 100% is cause the SOC cant be measured with Voltage other than it is with NMC where the battery voltage correlates with SOC. With LFP the Amps leaving and enter the battery must be counted to make the integral math to get SOC. The accuracy of this method drifts slowly away if not frequently charged to 100%, where all can be reseted. For battery health its better to charge only up to about 95% , 80% as recommendet with NMC dont help a lot more with LFP (sorry for my bad english ; )
alternative take on estimated range change. these cars are actually adjusting their estimations to your driving style. so there might be not even any degradation
@@mrpicky1868 The main Tesla range estimate is calculated using a fixed EPA consumption figure and doesn’t adjust to your driving style this is why it is a good way of measuring degradation by comparing to the initial range estimate when the car was new. For a range figure that adapts to your current driving style you need to use the cars energy app.
@ Yes it is strange but it’s what they do. It’s fixed. The only thing it is useful for is measuring degradation. It has no use otherwise as it doesn’t adapt to your driving. I leave it on percentage like my phone and use the navigation and energy app range estimates as they adapt to driving style and conditions.
Thanks. You say it’s settling down. My view of the graph looks like an ongoing decline, albeit slower than initially. Any concerns that you’re rate of decline is greater than average? I hate to see my June 2023 M3 RWD range go down a mile at a time not too infrequently. I’ve lost 5 miles in a bit over 3 months.
I had an initial rapid decline in range at 100% then it settled to a slower decline as you noted. It is always going to be an ongoing decline but it should flatten out at close to 10% based on what I have researched. So yes it is only a slight settling down. I was not concerned about it being just below average because this figure can change slightly (up or down) depending on your charging habits and how well the BMS calculated the fully charged capacity. A couple of full cycles down to 5 or 10% can change this figure. Temperature will also change this range figure. I don’t put too much weight on it. At 40000km when I sold this car it had just under 4% degradation. This doesn’t include the couple of kWh lost to initial settling of the cells. It was probably more like 2.5-3%. So to sum this up the initial range displayed is based on the installed capacity of the battery which declines to the settled capacity within a few months. I now have a 2023 Model Y RWD and in 4 weeks the capacity has degraded by 1.5%. This can’t be accurate. My capacity for some of that time was almost 62kWh and has been jumping around. I don’t see the need to get concerned. My main focus is overall battery health not a small range loss from a not so realistic figure. Just keep it on % display and enjoy the car.
Great info. My MIC Model 3 RWD LFP showed 425 KM in June 2021 when I picked it up, and now shows 401 KM. So about 2.5 years old, 26000 KM on the odometer. Have left it charging to 100% most of that time. Wife and I both work at home, so the car has spent the majority of its time at 100% sitting in the garage. Seems a bit high on the degradation, and have wondered if I should let it slowly discharge and then push it back to 100% just every few weeks.
The 425km wasn’t based on the settled capacity of the battery. You could safely write off 10-15km of that range to settling of the battery cells. This is still a form of degradation based on rated range at 100% but it is not really the cells ‘degrading’. Your degradation is very similar to what mine was and I stopped charging to 100% each day after the first 6months when we installed a wall connector at work. When I sold the car it had 44000km and was showing 404km when charged to 100%. I never have this range showing as it is useless except for this purpose of assessing battery capacity if you don’t have ScanMyTesla hooked up. The bottom line is I wouldn’t be concerned about the figures you are seeing. With LFP the battery isn’t under a lot of stress at 100% SOC which is why it is ok to do that. While LFP chemistry is fairly new to EVs it is an older chemistry that has been proven in other fields. The initial degradation is more rapid than other chemistries but it should settle close to 10% and not progress much further than that. Time could still prove me wrong but I think issues with these LFP batteries would be more likely build quality than chemistry. Cleanliness during manufacturing and controlling moisture ingress are critical to the longevity of the battery. A lot of the older Model S batteries have failed due to moisture and corrosion issues.
@@sashank14311 Thanks Sashank. I’ll be making another one soon that will focus on my 1yr old Model Y. I’ll cover some basics of LFP prismatic cells and degradation too.
its great to have someone do the research for me. I saw your previous degradation video which gave me confidence to charge to 100%. However I've seen two others about LFP (not in cars) implying that they can last (almost) forever if kept at 90%, but presumable those batteries didn't have sophisticated BMS's. I charge mine from my solar panels as much as possible and today the car was at 90% and I reluctantly let my 3.5kW's flow into the grid. I think I'll take your advice and keep the SOC as high as possible when the sun shines now. My car is an MG4 but the principle must be very similar.
Thanks James. Yes, main thing is to trust the BMS to do it's job and keep DC fast charging for when you really need it. Yes, I agree the MG4 has the same basic chemistry but I dont know enough about its BMS to comment. It would be similar to Tesla and need to monitor energy flow as well as voltage for accurate SOC. Even when I was working with electric forklifts over 20 years ago they had this same principal to make the SOC more accurate and that was lead acid batteries.
Informative video! Thanks Hard to understand how you can get these exellent results. My average for life time 7850km is 160Wh/km. I think we have the same model 2021 M3 SR+ RWD LFP battery .On full battery it show 406km range.
I’m charging my M3 rwd lfp to 100% maybe 2x a week. Never gets below let’s say 30% normally. Owned for 6 months. I don’t drive a lot but I notice almost no change.
Keep doing what you’re doing then! My opinion is it’s how you drive the car too. If you floor it everywhere then that isn’t good for the battery health either. I am somewhere in between and do a lot of driving. I now have an almost 1 year old model Y RWD and it is sitting just below 2% degradation. With 19000km.
Im curious about the total energy usage (and therefore cost to “run” the car). The app showed 5357 kWH (ac + dc charge totals) and your video total has 30,000km. So that’s around 178wh/km. Do you know if that ac charge total (ignoring dc) reported is the same as what your pulling out of the wall? Or what’s reached the car after losing some of it due to the inefficiency of the chargers. So the the total engery is greater again? The drive total is 4204 kWH in the app and that would work out to 133wh/km (as advertised). So there is 1153kWh of charging that doesn’t move the car? Besides aircon etc, that difference would include sentry mode and other things that consume the battery at all times (driving or parked - when unplugged) Regen is accounted in the total charge (8000) value below,(I assume). I have a new Model Y I’m just curious for my own person expectations. it’s easy to say, the car does ~157wh/km and I drive X kms per year, my electricity cost X cents for kWH therefore it’s X dollars per year. its probably more reasonable to assume to extra 33% kWH?? If I’ve misinterpreted what some of those figures are please let me know as I’ve only used your video for reference.
Hi John. The kWh displayed in the car is what comes and goes from the battery and doesnt account for losses in between. Single phase AC charging is the ost inefficient at about 90% and 3-phase is around 95%. DC fast is even more efficient but the car burns a bit of extra power to heat the battery for DC charging. You can't win there are always losses somewhere. It cost energy to convert the 240V to around 400V at the battery. Most of this is lost to heat but some of this heat is recycled into cabin heating in winter reducing your HVAC consumption. I'm being a bit general here but unfortunately thats how it is. I can't remember if we have a chat going on Insta or Twitter but I can't attach pics here. Right now my car is at 37,058km 5264kWh 142Wh/km average.
@@notinthemanual thanks for the reply! Hopefully they can sort out some of the other efficiencies like heating, sentry mode (7% / day seems excessive to me) etc so those “costs” of ownership aren’t as high into the future. The cars driving efficiency is great (for Teslas atleast). Like you I have managed to charge mostly on solar for the 1000kms I’ve driven it so far! That’s with only 4kw solar system in winter outputting 2.2kw on a clear sunny day at best.
I seem to have a couple of John Smiths that have commented. Are you the John Smith from Tasmania? If you email me or DM me on Insta or Twitter I will send you through some screengrabs from TeslaFi on charge totals. Its not the full lifetime of the car but will give an idea of charging efficiencies. I might even end up posting these on the channel but not sure yet. Third party apps like TeslaFi or Teslascope can be a great source of information and allow you to better manage your energy usage. Most of my AC charging is now done with a 3-phase wall charger supplied by solar panels.
@@JohnSmith-zg5zz Let me know if you want more info. Tesla are constantly improving efficiency. You can now have sentry mode active without cameras but it will only capture footage if the car is physically impacted. I think Tesla are the most efficient when it comes to heating so it will be interesting to see how they could make that more efficient. The longer I own my EV the less I care about the tiny energy losses. It’s still less than running an ICE car. Even if it was the same I’d still prefer driving an EV.
My new 24 Model Y LR is supposed to be 310 miles EPA range, but with 3 miles on it was estimated to be 301 miles. I charged to 100% and it made it to 304. Currently, after a few charges, it is estimated to 300. I'll never see the rated range listed.
That’s one of the first hard lessons you learn owning a Tesla. There is also no short answer to explain it. I don’t agree with it but the advertised range and the displayed range are different. The displayed range is pretty useless. I never use it as a practical thing as it doesn’t consider your driving style. It’s good for monitoring degradation but that’s about it. If you want real range figures then you need to use the built in energy app. On the other hand in certain driving situations you could exceed the displayed range if you just drive around on a daily flat road at 70km/h. The trouble is it’s fixed and doesn’t vary with your driving style. It’s the same with advertised consumption figures for gas cars. I’ve only owned one car where I could achieve those figures on a regular basis. It does need to change or people need to be made more aware of this before buying the cars. Range with electric cars is a confusing topic because everyone goes into buying their first EV with range as the most important feature when really it is efficiency. Most people will never use the full range of their car in one hit. Once you have owned and EV for a while you realise this and range becomes less important. This is why I have been very happy with the standard range Teslas.
Sorry for the long response but it’s a difficult topic. Your displayed range at 100% will vary as the battery cells find their settled capacity as opposed to their slightly inflated installed capacity. It has taken over 6 months for the LFP battery in my new MY RWD to finally settle at around 1.5% capacity loss from installed. It is now pretty stable but every now and then there is some imbalance when I charge ti 100% and I see around 5 or 6 km less on the displayed range. This usually sorts itself out next charge cycle.
I think that 52.5kWh figure you found online is the usable capacity of the battery (100% till 0%) whereas 'Nominal full pack' is 100% till the car stops moving so you can't really compare the two. That being said I do understand your point that comparing 'Full pack when new' to 'Nominal full pack' will give an exaggerated degradation figure because 'Full pack when new' does not take into account the settling in period of the battery before it reaches it's rated spec. Sadly I don't think there is any way to know for sure what the rated capacity of the battery after settling in period is since Tesla doesn't publish the figure.
Hi Roland. I totally agree. Degradation is a hard thing to assess when you don’t have all the facts. I think keeping an eye on the overall battery health is more important. Battery issues tend to be a few weak cells bringing the rest down. You can pick this up with some voltage sag tests and monitoring cell imbalance. A small amount of degradation will not affect the usability of the car. It would be very rare to need the full 100-0% capacity anyway. Thanks for your input.
Hello, thanks a lot for the information. I need a suggestion. I want to buy Torres EvX, it has an LFP blade battery from BYD and aerodynamic is not very good. I like though the car. It has estimate 460km range. Is it safe to say that I can do daily 150km driving for the next 10 years of the life of the car?
It’s hard to say based off the info you have given above. I would definitely be confident of my Model Y being able to do that. I don’t know anything about the Torres EvX. I’d factor in around 10% degradation over that time period. Based on the specs I was able to find it looks like real world range would be more like 350km and maybe closer to 250-300km at motorway speeds average. I think what you have asked for would be achievable. It has a very good warranty period, much better than Tesla. I haven’t watched any real world tests or reviews to see if published consumption is realistic.
Matt,did you get the external speaker installed and what do you think.Have considered this upgrade but it seems to be out of stock just like many products from Tesla which they don't seem to stock enough
Hi Max. Video is coming. It’s good. In forward it makes a white noise sounds like a pump running but in reverse it makes a loud humming sound which takes time to get used to. I think it’s too loud but it definitely warns people your backing up which is the main thing. It makes it much safer in car parks even if it sounds a bit funny. I had to wait about 6 weeks but my brother in law only waited 4 days. It’s luck. They are bringing a bucket load of them in but are struggling to meet demand.
I bought my SR Tesla Model 3 the 28 of January 2023 with 13 km. here in Australia. This car is supposed to have a range of 491 km. Now the odometer shows around 772 km and the range shows only 439 when is charged at 100%. It's a 10.6% degradation in a few kilometers. Unfortunately I did not read the range when I just bought the car, but although that figure is not very accurate (the 439 km) I find it a bit too far from the theoretical figure. By the way: where you get this "Energy app" from? is it free?
The energy app is built into the car. Your car would not have been showing 491km when you first bought it. Most people have told me 439km is the range showing when new. So don’t worry your battery hasn’t degraded. 491km is the WLTP rated range and not used by the car. The base range display in the car is a fixed calc based on the EPA rated consumption figure. This doesn’t change with your driving style. The energy app gives you an accurate range based on your driving style. When navigating, the predicted range at arrival is accurate too as it considers weather and elevation.
Thanks Matt for another very informative video. I have a bought in Sep 2021 M3 which is also showing 407km at 100%. I have done 40,000km. I still wonder whether time or age is factored in by Tesla when they calculate the 100% range. There is a guy, Nathan, who has a similar aged M3 with LFP which is used for ridesharing, and I remember him commenting a few months ago that his car was currently showing 406km at 100% with 160,000 kms on the clock. And he also mentioned he charged to 100% every night. The time factor could also play into your theory of range change calculation changes after some of the OTA updates. Who knows? Interestingly, my 100% range dropped from 407 to 398 about a month ago. I assumed that this was just a hickup and after letting the SoC drop significantly and a couple of 100% charges it reverted back to 407. I'm pleased to here your thoughts on good LFP charging practice as I had basically adopted the same position. I probably charge to 100% once or twice a week. I noticed in the comments that you have ordered a MY... I'm sure you'll be pleased with it. I have just replaced my wife's car with a BYD Atto 3. She prefers a more traditional car with knobs and switches and is very happy with it. I've enjoyed driving it and making some comparisons between it and the Tesla... it's smoother, the Tesla more responsive... but it does my head in constantly changing from a left to right indicator stalk 😅 Thanks again for the informative videos.
Thanks for the info John. I just want to create a good resource of info people to compare their experience. Its seems while our cars are reporting similar range prediction at 100% there are no major issues. I am very happy with where my car is at. It is very interesting about the rideshare car reporting the same range. Yes BYD is the closest competitor I think. LFP battery paired up with an efficient motor and HVAC system is always going to work well. The legacy auto cars are just so ineffcient and need very large batteries to do the same job.
time of age matters most. i have a mate doing uber 80000 km for the first year charging to 100% EVERYDAY. his Y shows the same 100% ranges left as mine (I only did 16000 km for the same time). we received our car in the same week.
I've driven >15k km with my MY RWD since December. Degradation according to S3XY app is 1.22% and the car still reports 418 km since the start. Charge 1-2x per week to 100%. Around 40% of charge is on Superchargers.
I have also model y rwd like yours and this morning I charged at 100% and shows 417km after 20.000 km and 7 months old car. What you think will go on degradation since it losted 1 km?
Degradation is pretty similar or even above to NCM batteries , in 2 years and those kms around 6% ; 51,9kw of 55kw. I think the need of charging 100% for right measurement degrades this battery more despite or its quemicals, also degradation needs to be measured against the usable restricted battery capacity. For example , NCM LG batteries are 82kw and usable / enabled capacity is 78kw. Finally aging also degrades and for sure first years battery degrades more and then slows down by age and by usage. Long term 8-10 years or above cannot be compared yet with LFP. Let’s see.
@@creatorex1 Initial degradation will be more than NCM batteries and is expected. It’s been proven in other applications to taper off but we don’t have any 5-10year old LFP batteries in these Teslas yet. I will pull up some data for older LFP model 3s with higher km in my next video. I am going to make a video on my Model Y in the next few weeks. It’s just over 20000km. The
Hi Matt, My car is identical to yours with almost the same mileage (17,000 miles) and I'm sat at 407km @ 100%. When new it was 423 km @ 100%. SMT says Full pack when new = 55.1 kWh and Usable remaining 49.7. Add in the 2.33 buffer gives a battery of 52 kWh and SMT says Nominal Remaining = 52 kWh. If I use the energy graph I have 0.201 m/kw x 259 miles @ 100% = 52 kWh so everything lines up. I also use TeslaFi and it says I have degradation of ~4%. Looking at your energy screen, it says 0.123 x 421 km = 51.78 kWh battery and SMT says 51.9 kWh, so close too... Usable remaining = 49.8 + the buffer 2.3 and you are at 52.1 actual battery capacity. Keep up the good work in your Tesla journey!
Hi Kelvin. That’s great data. Thanks for taking the time to comment with that. It’s nice to have a comparison of a similar car. I knew my teslafi subscription would come in handy one day 😜. If you had told me back then I’d have a RUclips channel I wouldn’t have believed you.
Would be interesting to get some data from someone doing shallow charging between 30% to 80% without supercharging. I wonder if the car would display a message to charge to 100% after a few months..
It would be interesting. I’ve had a few comments from people that had never charged to 100%. They were scared about degradation and they had not received a warning. I don’t know what their charging habits were like though. My thoughts are you wouldn’t receive a warning but you would eventually have some inaccuracies in your SOC that you probably wouldn’t notice unless you ran close to 0%. There are already a few suggestions to keep your charge limit to 100% both in the car and in the app.
Quick question: how often would you use a supercharger? and would that greatly affect the longevity of LFP batteries. My Y RWD is 2 months old now and still has the full 435kms of range. Very informative video btw. Keep up the good work👍
Thanks Lawrence. I don’t use a supercharger very often. I am in the middle of a 2500km road trip and will supercharge more in this trip than I have in the last two years. The LFP chemistry is pretty robust but I would still recommend keeping supercharging for when you really need it. I have checked other similar age cars that have done a lot more supercharging than me and they have the same capacity.
I will hopefully get my Model Y RWD soon! The 3 is just too small with 3 teenage kids on a road trip. This is the last road trip I will do in this car.
There is no reliable way to know a state of charge of a battery. We rely on measuring and calculation and knowledge of equipments. The only known SOC is a construction, the voltages of an LFP only vary much when approaching 100% or 0% where you could do measurements, but then each cell has its own life. In the middle where you use your car the SOC is a blur. Only a computer knowing each second and logging each bit of energy in and out vs a supposed battery capacity can give you a figure % on screen.Also you cant go further if ONE cell goes below a set lowest value, or you can't charge more if ONE cell goes above set highest value. So if things do not go well the car can decide it is at 100% or 0% at any moment. Also voltage does sag when charging or accelerating, and after some time rest it recovers.
I agree with what you are saying but a healthy battery with a good BMS is very unlikely to go from 100% to 0% unless there is a major battery cell problem. Coulomb counting can be done pretty accurately it’s more the BMS understanding or calibration of the total battery capacity. This is most important when running down to very low SOC which I try to avoid. As you said it only takes one cell to drop below the threshold and the car will cut out. I try to arrive at a DC fast charger with 15% or more which allows for inaccuracy and unforeseen weather changes
@@notinthemanual Yes, today my DIY home battery went down deeper than the usual (3 straignt days of rain), ( it's a 7S system with recycled old 18650s ) and the 3rd row did go below 3,20V much earlier than the rest of the pack. so, in my own mind, because I do all by hand, my pack was around 7-10% and then the alarm went, and I decided that this was in fact 0% because of this weak link I found out about. I never tested this battery system so low in 10 years, so I was not aware of this limitation. The rest of the time the elements are all between 0,10 V of each other. I have no BMS, in therm of Management, I have only a BMS as of MONITORING. But the Tesla car should have a management that can resistively load the higher cells or under load the weak elements to keep the pack pristine for longer years.
@@AlexandreLollini I am pretty sure that Tesla use the DC-DC converter to bleed off the overcharged cells at 100% to assist with balancing. Just my theory I don’t know for sure. The cell imbalance is much higher just as it completes charge(180mV). It then settles down and the higher voltage cells bleed off and the imbalance drops back to 4mV after about 1 hour of rest. The overall voltage drops back from 407v at charge finish to around 350-360v in this same timeframe.
Hi Matt, thanks for the content. Really interesting. My M3 is 6 months new and I travel more than 150 klms per day. I charge to 100% every week night. When I took delivery the stated 100% range was 440 klms. It’s now 432 which is better than I expected. Memory effect is something I will be keeping an eye on as I travel the same route most days. Thanks again. 👍
Thanks Nathan. Yes the trend with LFP is for the majority of the degradation to occur early in its life and taper off. I hope I illustrated that and gave people some piece of mind.
Hi I own a model y rwd Shangai CATL LFP battery after 7 months and 21000km : until like tow weeks ago it was around 418 when it was charged at 100% now days it when I charge to 100% it only charges 416 km. Any way that’s my degradetion after after 7 months. P.S. I don’t charge every week at 100% but after like 10 days
@@niolait Thanks for sharing that. 2km is not much difference and can even be due to a slight temp difference. No need to worry. Mine fluctuates +\- 3km regularly
@@TarmoSundström-y9h I just took delivery of a new 2023 Model Y RWD with 60kWh LFP. I am going to keep a log of capacity and range from day 1. I should get an accurate idea of how much capacity loss there is after the new battery settles in. I’ll be able to subtract the difference between installed capacity and settled capacity to have a more accurate degradation figure long term.
Yes. No problem with LFP. Keeping it at 100% is safe for battery health and fire risk (covered both angles of ‘safe’). It’s not under as much stress as other chemistries when at 100% SOC. It’s energy density is lower and it’s thermal runaway point is much higher. Some people think that it’s better for battery health to keep an LFP at 100%.
@@jalogrono It still has some use cases. I charge at work 90% of the time but at home I like to plug in when it’s cold as the battery preconditions faster and gives me good regen. I don’t want to charge at home so I set the slider at a point below my SOC so it doesn’t charge. It’s also handy when fast charging as you can play around with it to see how long it will take to charge to a specific percentage. Most of the time I do just leave it at 100% though.
I do not think that the wheel configuration has any effect on the range in TeslaFi. It is based on a fixed consumption and not exact down to 1 km range (sensitivity of voltage measurement as you state). Nor do I think that software changes shown has any effect - temperature of battery pack is much more important, as the voltage will slightly increase with temperature. I have an M3LR 2021 and TeslaFi and ScanMyTesla as well, and very rarely charge to 100%. Here charging to 79.5% or 80.5% but car reports as 80% is much more significant (up to 0.75 kWh / 4 km).
Thanks Carsten. I have the TeslaFi battery report set to only show the range reported by the car at 100% state of charge not partial charge. Most of the time my LFP battery is kept at 100%. I would like to think that the software updates haven’t had an effect on range but there have been very noticeable drops in range after updates and I have also found this in ScanMyTesla too. It’s a big coincidence but this was mainly in the early life when Tesla were changing how the displayed range was calculated.
I agree though that temperature plays a part in this too which is why I don’t see the reported degradation as bad. I see it is a mixture of inaccuracies. TeslaFi only displays the range as reported by the car’s api. I can see a slight dip in the graph where I had my wheel configuration changed for a while.
Hi Matt, wonderful video. I don't like to drop too low as my tarrif allows just 4 hours from 12:30am for cheap elec. So i generally keep above 50%. Is it ok to rarely drop below 50%? Also, If I charge to 100% by 4:30am but don't use the car until say 5pm (not untypical as I'm retired) will this harm the battery?
Hi Nick. Thanks! Yes it’s fine to drop below 50%. I do that from time to time and it won’t harm the battery. Tesla actually recommend leaving your car plugged in when not using it even at 100%. You won’t harm the car. With the LFP you really only need to do it once a week. The best thing about the LFP is being able to keep it charged up to 100% all the time if you want and don’t stress about it.
I have a M3 Lfp, 1y2m old, have driven 23000 km, mostly charged at home type 2 (4kw), yet I have a 3.1% degradation, the maximal range now is 415 km, one week ago it was 425 km and 2.9% deg (according to Tessie app). What do you guys think? Feel like it’s a bit bad performance, especially that most of the time I drive in the city.
This is the hard period with LFP. They have a higher initial degradation than the other chemistries but the degradation slows down. It’s hard to believe that when you see the range drop. You need to remember this range figure is useless for anything other than looking at your battery capacity. The Tessie app is most accurate but even this does not consider the initial range loss due to the battery finding its settled capacity. My estimate is 1-2% loss from the installed capacity. I feel that the speed at which your battery degrades is not solely related to charging habits but mostly to do with your driving style where the battery delivers much higher currents than charging. It is a shorter load duty cycle but you are able to draw high currents when the battery is cold too. My 6 month old MY has dropped from the initial range at 100% of 435km down to 426km (2%) but I too noticed a big drop recently along with other people in the comments too. Possibly there has been a change in the latest update as the reported capacity in my car has not changed in the same degree. Tessie app for my car says 1.4%. That is where these third party apps are good as they monitor over a period of time and not just a snapshot. They also compare your car to the rest of the fleet. I do not think you’re 3.1% is anything to worry about but I agree it does feel a bit disappointing to see it. What you need to remember is that as long as it is close to the fleet average for degradation it is normal and this amount of degradation is not going to make any difference to how you can use the car unless you drive to 0% every time.
So, the 100% of the 'god' TESLA battery is not the 100% of the cell chemistry. You also have to charge above a certain per centage to activate the cell balancing feature of the BMS. Also charging to 100% of TESLA is to recalibrate how much energy the battery can still absorb/store and this is used to calculate the range. For battery longevity, avoid even charging to 100% of the TESLA world and rapid DC fast charging. The maximum voltage of the LFP cell is 3.65V. Occasionally charge to 100% should be the advice like every month. If only TESLA would officially mention at what SOC its BMS starts the cell balancing, that would have helped to the community.
Hi Pritam. I don’t think the BMS only uses SOC to determine when to balance the battery. It is also using the cell imbalance measurement to determine if balancing is needed. Balancing will be done during AC charging if needed, no matter what SOC you are at. There would even be a small amount of natural balancing done during conservative driving. The LFP batteries are not indestructible but are more robust than other chemistries. The lower internal resistance makes them less prone to imbalance in the first place. I have no problem charging my car to 100% regularly. Is not under a lot of stress at 3.65v per cell. There are valid reasons for and against but I feel the difference to degradation is minimal. I would rather have an accurate SOC. As the SOC accuracy decreases the BMS increases the size of the bottom buffer to protect the battery which means less available capacity. The biggest enemy to battery life is still excessive DC fast charging and discharging below 0%.
@@notinthemanual What I wanted to say is Cell Balancing has to be triggered at a certain SOC level. It cannot be done at any SOC level. There is this gentleman from Australia too, who discusses a lot about cell balancing in his RUclips channel "The Off-Grid Garage", he specially discusses at what cell voltages he starts the balancing process and why. By saying discharging below 0% you should state it's in reference to the Tesla display.
@@notinthemanual I was introduced to LFP through Jack Rickard RUclips channel even before TESLA was talking about this chemistry publicly. In one of his videos, he explains how to get the most out of Li-ion cells by respecting the band between which to keep the SOC. He passed away in 2020. He was advocating for LFP usage in EV since 2008!
@@pritambissonauth2181 Yes LFP has been around for a long time. If his channel is still going I’d be interested in watching some of those vids. A lot of older techniques for managing battery health aren’t as relevant these days as the BMS is much more sophisticated. There are additives to the chemistry to minimise other concerns too. My biggest concern for LFP isn’t the chemistry but initial build quality. Yes I agree there is still an optimal window for SOC but at the top end I don’t think it makes enough difference to worry about. I charge to 100% once or twice a week but it never stays there for long. I run down to around 20% before I charge but I’m lucky enough to be able to charge at work off solar during the day. This gives me more flexibility. Some people don’t have the luxury of choosing when and where to charge. I used to leave my model 3 plugged in all the time as I only had access to slow charging. I think it would be rare for people to do this, at least once they have owned an EV for a while.
Great explanation! 🙂 If I am not using the car, would it be wise to keep the battery to 50%? And, my habit is to charge it every time to. 100% but charge only when it reaches 20-30%. I keep it plugged in but I immediately stop charging just to have that advantage for preconditioning. Is this ok? Thank you 🙂 👍
There is no benefit to keeping the car at 50% with LFP. Your habit sounds good and similar to me. The advantage of having a faster charger (7kW or more) at work or home is you have the freedom to charge in a smaller window allowing you to discharge further before charging. I do the same precon trick in winter when I don’t want to charge at home where I pay for the electricity.
Hi Matt, I have not been charging it to a 100% in the past 6 months. Do I need to bring the SOC down to 10-20% before I start charging it to 100% daily?
@@notinthemanual hey, just wanted to provide you with an update, after 2 weeks of continuously charging to 100% on a daily basis, my 100% SOC now gives me 271 miles. It was 250 miles when I first got the car. I guess no degradation after all!
@@jasteech Great news. There is some variability so always good to give it some 100% charges to improve the accuracy. Thanks is for letting me know. This is good for others to read 👌
Hey Matt, if you Google there is no memory effect Tesla There’s a link to Tesla FAQs that state “Tesla uses lithium ion batteries so there is no memory effect”. Is this the same kind of memory effect you talk about in the video?
Hi John. No it’s not the same type of memory effect. They are comparing to the old ni-cad & ni-mh rechargeable batteries. No lithium ion batteries have that old memory effect.
If you search for LFP memory effect it should bring up different info. Basically it is charging to the same point over and over causing a small spike in the volts per cell at that point. This can confuse the BMS and affect your SOC accuracy. I only mentioned it as several people have brought it up in the comments. To be honest I doubt it would affect a sophisticated BMS system like Tesla has but I thought it would be worth mentioning in case anyone is told about it.
@@davew2040x Cheers for the compliment then 😜 I’m still laughing about it. I can actually see some resemblance now except I still have my hair for now…..
Charging habits... unless you let it die over and over it won't matter keep it like you do a ice car ... between 1/4 to 3.4 full most of the trine and forget about it.
@@abelincoln3261 I agree but If you do put an LFP battery on charge it’s best to let it go to 100% for long term battery health to ensure cells are balanced. LFP cells have a slightly higher self discharge than other chemistries so need regular balancing. It’s probably still a minor difference in overall life but it’s a good habit to have. If you have ScanMyTesla hooked up you will see when the charge gets close to 100% how far the imbalance is and it’s surprising. This is when you see the true imbalance of the cells. I will demonstrate this in an upcoming video.
Thanks Pierre. Glad you found it useful. I have a new video to upload soon on initial battery specs for my new Model Y that you might find interesting. It will actually show why the degradation figure is less than calculated using ScanMyTesla due to the initial settling of the cells.
It’s more about the volts per cell than the SOC. At 0% there is still a bit of a buffer in the voltage. Doing this occasionally will be fine. I wouldn’t recommend going down to zero unless absolutely necessary. If the battery cells are out of balance all it takes is one cell to drop down below the voltage threshold and the car will cut out. On a fairly new battery the risk is low and if your SOC is accurate. If you have ScanMyTesla hooked up there is even less risk as you can monitor cell voltage levels.
Greetings to everyone from Turkey. After 29000 km, my battery health was 95.54%. Is this situation normal? My vehicle is MG4 standard range LFP. I usually charge it with 2.7kw in my parking lot.
Hi Fatih. I am not familiar with MG4 in general but my first thoughts are that your figures sound ok. I am not surprised by them. How are you measuring this battery health figure? With Tesla there is a reported installed capacity that is very different from the real capacity once the battery has settled over a few months. This can make the degradation seem worse than it is but remember LFP does most of its degradation early in its life and slows down.
@@dangunsuh5594 Cheers. I’m happy to have been able to help so many people with this video. I’ll have a couple more coming in the near future. I just hit 20000km on my MY and my brother in law just hit 50k on his 55kWh M3 like the one I used to own in this vid.
Lfp by catl is suppose to have 5000 cycles. 5000 cycles x 200 mile range is 1 million miles bud. That is to 80% remaining capacity. Cobalt has 300 cylces to 100%, but you can double that to 90%, double that to 80% and double again at 70%. I charge to 75% to about 2100 cycles at 228 miles lr model y. So your lfp is better than my lr imho. The only benefit is on trips i can charge 100% at a destination charger and have 304 mile range.
Thanks for the info. I’ve found it hard to find accurate cycle info specific to the CATL LFP packs used in Teslas. Most info I found was saying 3000 cycles for LFP so 5000 sounds better to me. I just traded this car for a Model Y RWD which has the 60kWh CATL pack. ScanMyTesla showed the car reporting 130 cycles after 40000km so that roughly lines up. Range is a personal situation thing. This Model 3 with the 55kWh pack had more range than I ever needed. If I strayed from the convenience of the Supercharger network it would be nice to have some extra range though. I use about 10% round trip for my commute and don’t road trip very often. I wish I got the LR dual motors now every time I see the off road test video Tesla released 😜
I’ve seen a few articles now saying degradation has proven to be less than expected for most older Teslas. I think in 5-10years time we will see if we are right about LFP in EVs. Tesla has a great BMS so will definitely be in a better position than lesser systems. Thanks again for sharing that info. That’s what I love about the comment section. Shred knowledge 👍
lfp you need to totally discharge down to 5 miles then back up to 100 do this every 50 charges why lfp has a long drop off and its software based to calculate range then do 30 percent to 80 percent
@@reggiebannister1080 LFP gives you the freedom to charge based on what suits you best as long as you top up to 100% every week or so. Just keep it simple and don’t think about it too much. I prefer to top up to 100% weekly so the battery has a proper balance at full charge. Some people prefer to just leave it plugged in every night and charge to 100% daily. They too have commented here having minimal degradation. I think your driving habits have more of an effect on battery health.
The consumption calculation on telsa is disappointing. My MG zs ev dynamically calculates km left based on driving style, weather etc. It's probably the biggest thing I will miss when I move from my MG to tesla model y. Looks like the info is there on the tesla but I need to dig deeper, or use abrp.
Yes most other cars have a dynamic range display. I don’t even use it. You just don’t need it. The only time I even look at a range display is when I’m deciding whether to skip a charging stop on a long trip. I know you have mentioned you have a long commute before. Moving to the bigger range Y will be an improvement. The energy app is just one touch away if you need it. I honestly don’t think it will be an issue for you.
@@notinthemanual thanks mate. I am still on the fence about the long range vs the rwd model y. I do like the idea of the LFP battery longevity. And I'm struggling to justify 12k more in price for such a small increase in range. Especially considering the supposed lifespan of the LFP battery. One thing I'm a little worried about is what happens with the LFP battery when I leave work in the evening and battery is cold and I have to drive down the Toowoomba range which is an elevation change of about 650m. In my MG zs ev which has a nickel based battery I get full regenerative braking all the way down even on a cold day with a cold battery. I'm wondering if I will get the same regenerative braking with the LFP model y on a cold day when car has been sitting all day.
@@NaughtyGoatFarm I can tell you 100% you won’t get the full regen even if you precon. It’s never bothered me and I have some hills on my daily that regen gets chopped back on. It’s not the Toowoomba range though. Some of these things bothered me before I bought the car but it’s a personal thing and they don’t bother me at all now. As a percentage you will still only use the brakes a fraction of what you would in an ICE car. Once you look at a long range there are a few more cars to choose from at that price point. If the long range is made in US I would be concerned with build quality too. No one can tell you 100% what will happen with LFP batteries in 10years time but based on other applications they have a very good lifespan. This too comes down to build quality as well as the chemistry. Time will tell. I just want to present the facts to everyone to make their own choice. I didn’t hesitate to order LFP again with the RWD Y I have on order.
@@NaughtyGoatFarm It’s a lot of money so it’s good you are taking your time to make the right decision. You already have the benefit of being an existing EV owner. The longer you take the more likely it is that the car will have new features.
👍 Hello Matt! Great job! My M3 2021 is MIC LFP 52.5 kwh usable as new - now in spring is reported as 51.8 kwh after 28k km - zone is Europe RO! I observed that somectimes in the winter when is cold the buffer is adjusting and the usable cap is going up to 52.2 - 52.3 kwh. 😎 Tesla FTW! So who cares about degradation? 😊
Thanks Adrian. I have found other cars from this same time period have almost the same useable capacity as ours. I have noticed the useable capacity changing too but it doesnt get as cold here as Europe. LFP FTW is right. I have just ordered a Model Y RWD with LFP.
Hey Adrian, im from Netherlands. Wondering how you get around with so little fast chargers when you drive around Romania? I was checking out if i could drive there but many spots i could not come because of the lack of chargers. Hopefully your government and Tesla will improve to install many more chargers !!! (Me owning a Model 3 RWD LFP with 60kWh
I know some people say you can charge LiFeP to 100% that it doesn’t affect your longevity. That is incorrect. Charging any Li-ion battery to 100% shortens the numbers of cycles. LiFeP just have more cycles to work with and are less susceptible, but they aren’t impervious to this type of degradation. Tesla only guarantees 70% capacity after 8 years and 100,000 miles. So they aren’t concerned about it. The problem is how much value does an 8 years old Model 3 with only 70% capacity remaining have? If you don’t mind losing almost your entire investment in your car in 8 years that’s not a problem, but myself I would absolutely want to keep my capacity over 90% so it still have some value. The lease deterioration in Li-ion batteries occurs stored at 40% charge and cycles of 20%. My routine is to normally charge up to 65% and not recharge until it gets to ~40% and not drain it normally below 30%. Of course for trips I charge up to 80% and recharge at ~30%I also keep my car in an underground garage that keeps it cooler. The cooler you keep the batteries without freezing them increase longevity. Of course the big drops occurs over 25°C. But it contains to improve below 25°C. It is also much easier to keep to keep a battery warm than to cool it.
That’s too complicated and impractical for the majority of people. Yes it will probably preserve some life but it’s impossible to say exactly how much. My feeling is going to this trouble will make very little difference. An LFP battery charged to 100% is much less voltage and stress than other chemistries. This basic fact is where its strength is. Not charging an LFP to 100% can also cause damage so I think it’s best to strike a balance between what you do and what is practical. No one knows exactly how current LFP battery technology and materials will last in EVs. There are so many more variables other than chemistry. I am more concerned about original build quality than charging habits. Moisture ingress is not great for any battery but worse for LFP.
Thanks my knowledge on that side of things is limited. From what I’ve read half decent BMS manages this. I’ll be reading more on this and hopefully be able to explain it a bit better next time.
We just had a LFP battery “meltdown” going through Arizona 116 degree heat. 40-50% of charge disappeared relative to projected use. We were driving below speed limit. Anyone know how this happens?
Without a lot more information it’s hard to say. I’ve driven in those temps many times here in Australia without issue. Had you just supercharged? What temp was the battery? I’ve had my battery temp close to 60degC (140degF) without problems. LFP chemistry is more tolerant of heat so this is strange. When had you last charged to 100%? Which range display changed? What did Tesla service say? They can look back a couple of weeks and see what happened. Longer if you mark a bug report at the time.
@@jacksmack2382 Very strange issue. Car still should have been able to manage in those temps easily. Consumption obviously goes up with HVAC usage in extreme cold or hot but to be that far out is strange. I’d start a service case with Tesla and get them to look at the data. As long as it wasn’t too long ago they can pull everything up. If it happens again you can log a bug report with voice control or press the car symbol you use to access settings for a few seconds and it will automatically log a bug report. This takes a snapshot of the vehicle system data for a period and keeps it there to be viewed later. Normally Tesla service can only look back a couple of weeks. You can view battery temps in service mode, ScanMyTesla or S3XY buttons dashboard. Do you charge to 100% regularly? Just wondering if it’s a BMS calibration issue. I’ve heard stories of inaccurate SOC with LFP but mostly in cold weather and low SOC. A charge to 100% resets the BMS and keeps the SOC accurate.
@@jacksmack2382 Which range display were you using? Navigation, energy app or GOM? Energy app would be the best with the consumption screen set to last 50km is best for trips. Most other screens including the arrival SOC in nav don’t adjust fast enough to changes in conditions.
@@notinthemanual charged to100% that morning; supercharged to maybe 80-90%, enough that next supercharger was supposed to have >30% on arrival; put a service request into Tesla but it may be too late
It’s not that bad. My car only has the 55kWh battery and yours would have the 60kWh. The degradation that my car has is inline with expectations. LFP is not immune to degradation but is much less long term. You can see from the graph it is similar to other cars with the same battery capacity.
Does the manual tell you about the chemical you are not allowed to talk about or post about here. Not one video ever made about the battery technology mentions this chemical. And if I was to attempt to post the name my comment will never be seen by anyone except me on my YT comment section. So one must ask why. Why can't you post the name of a chemical? They are obviously trying to hide the true facts.
@@enigmaticloremaster1700 I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. You can spell it out with dollar signs and other symbols if you are worried about it. No one has told me about this super secret chemical I’m not supposed to talk about. They left me out of that memo. There are no conspiracies on this channel.
@@notinthemanual the chemical is a PFAS chemical Bis-FASIs to be exact using the abbreviation. Each time I post the full chemical name of this chemical the post is never visible to the public. So it makes me wonder why they disallow this chemical to be named. Research it yourself and try to tell someone and you will see what I mean..
@@enigmaticloremaster1700 I don’t see the point of your comment. This video wasn’t a chemistry lesson. It’s obvious most goods we buy as consumers these days have nasty chemicals used in the material or the manufacturing process. It’s highly unlikely but if this PFAS chemical is used in batteries then at least it is contained in a battery and not burnt and spewed into the air for all of us to breathe in. There would be much worse chemicals than that used in manufacturing many products. I’ve always said if you want to save the environment don’t buy as much disposable products if you don’t need them especially cars, gas or electric. They all use a lot of resources and nasty chemicals to manufacture.
@@notinthemanual yes chemicals are used in many things that destroy the environment but most break down not bis-FASIs they stay in the environment forever. Are highly toxic to all lifeforms. My point is they have lied to us all saying how great and green this technology truly is. When it actually pollutes the planet much more than petroleum products ever could.
@@Martinko_Pcik the good thing about LFP is most of these different charging methods make very little difference to the overall life and degradation. So choose a method that works for your situation. The worst thing to do is to drive around with your foot to the floor everywhere. High discharge current is just as bad as the opposite direction. Other don’ts are running down to zero or keeping it at 100% for long periods when the battery is at very high temps like after supercharging. Charging to 100% also has the benefit of balancing the cells. LFP needs balancing more often and unbalanced cells with lower voltage suffer more as they become a weak link. Even this is a minor thing with overall life when it comes to a well designed & built battery.
No problem. My videos aren’t for everyone. Degradation isn’t a black and white topic and needs explaining. I put chapters in for people that don’t want to listen to the whole video. I just checked and 10 seconds into the degradation figures chapter I show the figures so this could have saved you 5mins. 55.1kWh when new and 51.9kWh after 2 years.
It is but degradation is a grey area that needs to come with explanation. You just need to give it more than 6mins. This channel is long format so maybe not for you. I don’t like to leave anything out.
@@approots I realise that and put chapters in for that reason. It’s difficult to cater for everyone. I’m still pretty new to this so I’ll take your advice on board. Maybe I’ll make a short to go with videos like this and you can watch the full length to get the more of an explanation. Degradation itself isn’t complex but how each car reports it is. It takes ten seconds to tell you my cars reported 100% SOC range has gone from 424km down to 407km but that is far from realistic or the full story.
Matt,You have exceeded yourself on this one.This should be a must view video for all.Well done
Thanks Max. Glad you enjoyed it.
Great data you’re sharing. It’s in line with the research studies I’ve read and people need to understand it better. Well done!
Thanks Nick. I appreciate it. My aim was to just present the data with my opinion and see where the discussions in the comments went. Also to put together something that stays relevant for the long term. I’m seeing the same trend in my new Model Y RWD that has 15000km on it now. The cells in the pack have now settled and stabilised at 1.6% degradation. This is more along the lines of what I expected to see and will hopefully see the degradation curve flatten out a fair bit. When I first got my Model 3 the LFP batteries were still fairly new to Tesla and the BMS was being updated constantly leading to some inconsistencies in the range at 100% for that car in the beginning. I am thinking of making a similar video for my Model Y at 20000km.
Don't worry too much. Charge as convenient for your life. 😊 In cars and chargers, there are many stages of battery protection systems, such as temperature control, controlling the charging current according to the battery percentage. The computer will control the various variables for you. 😊 Which is different from in the experimental lab. that supplies power directly to the battery Does not pass through any control circuit. 😮 Therefore, the distance that the car can go It will depend on driving behavior rather than the slight battery deterioration rate. 😅 And it is possible that you may replace your car with a new one before you notice that the battery has deteriorated.😊
Folks, if you like peace of mind about your battery (longevity & safety), for years to come, just charge your EV between 30% - 70% (and do 90% - 100% when going for a long Road Trip).
(I own Tesla S & X, and I'm an Electrical Engineer)
* High temperatures kill batteries. If you go on a holiday/vacation during the summer, leave your vehicle at a low SOC (state of charge). For example, at or below 30% SOC
* Cycle within a narrow SOC range. For example: 40-60% rather than 10-80%. The cathode expands and contracts in a wider SOC range, which causes it to break apart.
* On that note: The lower the narrower the SOC range, the better. That means charging frequently.
* Avoid charging the vehicle above 75% SOC. Above 75% side reactions start occuring that cause degradation. This also reduces the volume expansion issues mentioned
* Taking all variables into account, operating between 45-70% SOC, and storage at ~30% is ideal.
* Occasional high SOC and wide SOC range are okay! For example, the occasional road trip.
* With good thermal management hardware and battery management software, supercharging should have minimal negative effects on cycle life
But even y'all will not follow those tips. The battery will not die tomorrow. it is just that there are some small (or big) consequences later on.
Have a great day!
Thanks for the tips Cliff.
These tips are for NCA and NCM batteries, as far as I know LFP batteries have no problems charging to 100%, correct?

@@Rafa-qv8si
NO battery is immune from Any Degradation, especially IF you fast charge them all the time and always in the 90's to 100's.
Even big conglomerates like Samsung want you to charge their top tier Smartphone and tablet to only the maximum of 80%-85%, for the battery will last longer.
And you can do 100% any Battery once in a while, to any of your devices, but not all the time, period.
@@Rafa-qv8si Yes these tips are more important for Nickel Cobalt type Lithium batteries. LFP batteries are not as stressed at 100% SOC. LFP batteries are more prone to cell imbalance so it is important to charge them to 100% at least once a week. This maintains SOC accuracy and is where most of the cell balancing is done. The higher voltage cells at full charge are slowly bled down for a couple hours after the charge has completed and balanced. It’s why the manual says it’s good to allow the battery to rest. This is good practice for overall LFP battery health. I would never advise anyone not to charge their LFP battery to 100% regularly but you don’t need to do it everyday. The bigger enemies to battery longevity are regular DC fast charging, over discharging (most important), and high charge or discharge rates when battery is cold. Regular hard acceleration is not good for your battery longevity either. I don’t want to take anything away from the points that Cliff makes as they are valid points, some of them just don’t matter as much with LFP chemistry and will make a minimal difference at the end of life. While the basic chemistry of modern batteries has not changed much the materials and construction have come a long way forward. Most notable is the construction and materials used in the separator layer of the cells. This sits between the cathode and anode and plays a big role in degradation and safety. The biggest question I have is over the assembly quality. None of this matters if the battery is poorly assembled or has moisture contamination. Tesla only started fitting LFP batteries to their cars at the end of 2020 so time will tell.
Great study! Thank you for sharing.
It is the first time I've heard about the memory effect on LFP when charging to lower than 100% SoC.
For me, it makes more sense, that the BMS is not able to balance the cells at lower SoC. And if it is not taken to higher (close to 100%) SoC often, it can easily happen that some cells are at higher voltage and cause the BMS to stop the charge before reaching the full capacity.
Yes. LFP is more prone to imbalance. It needs regular balancing and time to rest at full charge. The LFP recovers well.
That is the same problem with the old nicad batteries’ battery memory’ of course it’s not that bad . To follow this post to extend the battery life , don’t charge over 70% don’t let charge fall under 30% but charge and balance the cells to 100% but not in hot weather and don’t super charge to often all to keep resale value on a vehicle that loses 60% value compared to 40% loss on a regular car,that can be totaled by a speed bump or a fender bender . This is a great toy and it’s like ‘ if you have to ask these questions you can’t afford it
@@ricmiller9624 it’s a little bit different to the Nicad batteries. People exaggerate this issue and I felt the need to explain how it’s not a big deal. It’s also not a big deal charging an EV. You make it sound complicated when it’s actually not. With LFP there is no need to only charge to 70% or not discharge below 30%. I found resale was ok when I sold my model 3 and compatible to other cars I have sold in the past of a similar age. Every car I ever owned has a had a poor resale and with petrol and diesel cars it will get much worse. Cars are just a bad investment full stop. I sold my model 3 just as the new model 3 was announced so took a bigger hit of around $15000 less than what I paid for it after 2.5yrs. This is another thing that is exaggerated and very subjective to where you live and what is happening in your local market. EV sales are booming here in Australia and there are a lot of second hand model 3s on the market as people upgrade to the new M3 or upsize to the MY like I did. Tesla offer pretty low trade in values but so does every dealer.
@@notinthemanual you did a great report on this subject, if you have a home charger and you stay with in your rv range it’s worth every penny but to go beyond that on any consistent basis or just to go on a road less traveled you are amping up your plans and the risks increase. This ev industry can only get better with an increase in electric production, every ev uses when you fill up is 2 or 3 times a household use this is unacceptable. Just look up truckers electric needs at a distribution center even a small center would dwarf a city’s electric consumption. This is a very important technology but to push this hard is only lead to destruction, just look ahead this is not to mention there’s not enough the precious metals to transition the world in the projected time frame. It’s not been thought out Thanks man for the reply
@@ricmiller9624 It’s each to their own as far as I’m concerned. I’m not about to tell everyone what car they should have and I expect people to treat me the same. An EV works for me even when I go remote and long distances here in Australia. There is always somewhere to charge. When you go remote you just need to plan better. It just depends how you look at it. I used to think the same until I owned one. 3yrs into EV ownership I’ll never go back. 90% of the energy for my car comes from excess solar but I have so many options to source electricity from but limited to gas stations for fuel. You can’t look at the energy the same way. A tank of fuel in a car could run a generator and power a house for more than a day. The diesel in the tanks of a large truck could be used to run a very large generator and generate large amounts of electricity. EV are many times more efficient so it comes down to how you want to view it. It’s all energy.
Hi Matt, thank you for a very insightful and informative video regarding the LFP battery, you definitly settled a lot of uncertainties for new EV owners and busted a large number of batty-related myths! Thank you kindly for your thorough study and contribution to the EV community!
Thanks Eric. I appreciate your kind words and support.
Thanks for posting on this - it helps. I have a 2022 RWD (60 kW LFP) and have now had it 21 months (nearly 2 years). The indicated range has gone from 438km to 418km (if that is anything to go by, which I doubt, then degradation is 4.5%). Certainly I haven't noticed a significant range drop in actual driving (I have done the same 365km route a number of times over the time I have had the car and arrive with similar amounts of battery left). I particularly like the balanced handling of the car on our NZ windy roads and to me ,with its instant torque, it feels quicker than specs indicate.
Thanks for sharing your stats. The comments section is just as useful as my videos. I loved my Model 3 and felt the same about the performance. Unless you’re racing around a track at high speeds the handling is more than enough for most people. Even now that I’ve upgraded to a Y I feel it handles very well for an SUV. With range most people won’t even notice 5-10% degradation as it is well within any safety margin you would have between charging stops. Around the city it’s even less of a concern.
2023 RWD Model 3 - 17 months (53500 kms) Started at 441 kms and now at 420 km at 100%. Always plugged in while not in use, always to 100% because its LFP.
So why do you doubt the 4.5% drop?
do you think it’s less than that?
@@oggyoggy1299 I doubted it because its just an indication of range and subject to the algorithm Tesla uses which may have changed over this time.
Subsequently I now have "Scan my Tesla" set up, and it appears that the data pretty much backs the millage drop. As of August 2024 (car now about 2.5 years old), the drop is about 5.7% (battery health at 94.3%). If it kept degrading at the rate the car would be at 77% capacity left at 10 years old (which is still usable) - however data from older model 3's suggests the degradation rate slows significantly after 2 - 3 years and so I expect it will be significantly better than that at 10 years.
Thanks for this. Just as a comparo, my Model Y RWD LFP had a range when new of 435 km (Nov 22). I now have 31000 km on the car and the range is displaying 429, about 1.5% degradation. As you can tell I do a lot of driving so 2/3 of my charging has been DC fast charging (about half Tesla and half others like Evie). I top up to 100% at least twice a week, but only on AC. Haven't used Teslafi...pity.
Thanks for the info Peter. That’s pretty good! I have a Model Y RWD coming next month 😀…..hopefully.
I still feel my theory is right about most of my range degradation being software related. I lost a big chunk back in 2021 when Tesla reconfigured the range display calculation. I only use the energy app now on long trips and leave % displayed. Much more useful.
Typically MY RWD with LFP indicates 418km of range when new, and after 4mths and 7kkm - no difference in range for me whatsoever 🙂
@@kutrix2010 Thanks kutrix. That’s great. I think the newer models will see less range loss as they have had less changes to how the range is calculated. Mine had several adjustments to the fixed range display calculation early in its life with software updates.
I did get Tesla Y sr with Lft battery so thanks for this video. I was getting worried of charging to 100%. Got point about supercharging not being the best for the battery.
Thanks Matt, Useful and somewhat detailed info which has given me peace of mind about the range and degradation.
Awesome! Thank you. I’m a new M3 owner and have been concerned about this. Not many resources unfortunately that give you this kind of info.
Its a normal behavour for LFP batteries to degrade a bit more within the first 100 cycles or so.
The recommandation charging to 100% is cause the SOC cant be measured with Voltage other than it is with NMC where the battery voltage correlates with SOC. With LFP the Amps leaving and enter the battery must be counted to make the integral math to get SOC. The accuracy of this method drifts slowly away if not frequently charged to 100%, where all can be reseted. For battery health its better to charge only up to about 95% , 80% as recommendet with NMC dont help a lot more with LFP (sorry for my bad english ; )
@@topeye4202 No your English is good enough for me to understand. What you are saying is correct 👍
alternative take on estimated range change. these cars are actually adjusting their estimations to your driving style. so there might be not even any degradation
@@mrpicky1868 The main Tesla range estimate is calculated using a fixed EPA consumption figure and doesn’t adjust to your driving style this is why it is a good way of measuring degradation by comparing to the initial range estimate when the car was new. For a range figure that adapts to your current driving style you need to use the cars energy app.
@@notinthemanual that would be strange. as EPA estimations mean nothing in real world
@ Yes it is strange but it’s what they do. It’s fixed. The only thing it is useful for is measuring degradation. It has no use otherwise as it doesn’t adapt to your driving. I leave it on percentage like my phone and use the navigation and energy app range estimates as they adapt to driving style and conditions.
Thanks. You say it’s settling down. My view of the graph looks like an ongoing decline, albeit slower than initially. Any concerns that you’re rate of decline is greater than average? I hate to see my June 2023 M3 RWD range go down a mile at a time not too infrequently. I’ve lost 5 miles in a bit over 3 months.
I had an initial rapid decline in range at 100% then it settled to a slower decline as you noted. It is always going to be an ongoing decline but it should flatten out at close to 10% based on what I have researched. So yes it is only a slight settling down. I was not concerned about it being just below average because this figure can change slightly (up or down) depending on your charging habits and how well the BMS calculated the fully charged capacity. A couple of full cycles down to 5 or 10% can change this figure. Temperature will also change this range figure. I don’t put too much weight on it. At 40000km when I sold this car it had just under 4% degradation. This doesn’t include the couple of kWh lost to initial settling of the cells. It was probably more like 2.5-3%. So to sum this up the initial range displayed is based on the installed capacity of the battery which declines to the settled capacity within a few months. I now have a 2023 Model Y RWD and in 4 weeks the capacity has degraded by 1.5%. This can’t be accurate. My capacity for some of that time was almost 62kWh and has been jumping around. I don’t see the need to get concerned. My main focus is overall battery health not a small range loss from a not so realistic figure. Just keep it on % display and enjoy the car.
Great info. My MIC Model 3 RWD LFP showed 425 KM in June 2021 when I picked it up, and now shows 401 KM. So about 2.5 years old, 26000 KM on the odometer. Have left it charging to 100% most of that time. Wife and I both work at home, so the car has spent the majority of its time at 100% sitting in the garage. Seems a bit high on the degradation, and have wondered if I should let it slowly discharge and then push it back to 100% just every few weeks.
The 425km wasn’t based on the settled capacity of the battery. You could safely write off 10-15km of that range to settling of the battery cells. This is still a form of degradation based on rated range at 100% but it is not really the cells ‘degrading’. Your degradation is very similar to what mine was and I stopped charging to 100% each day after the first 6months when we installed a wall connector at work. When I sold the car it had 44000km and was showing 404km when charged to 100%. I never have this range showing as it is useless except for this purpose of assessing battery capacity if you don’t have ScanMyTesla hooked up. The bottom line is I wouldn’t be concerned about the figures you are seeing. With LFP the battery isn’t under a lot of stress at 100% SOC which is why it is ok to do that. While LFP chemistry is fairly new to EVs it is an older chemistry that has been proven in other fields. The initial degradation is more rapid than other chemistries but it should settle close to 10% and not progress much further than that. Time could still prove me wrong but I think issues with these LFP batteries would be more likely build quality than chemistry. Cleanliness during manufacturing and controlling moisture ingress are critical to the longevity of the battery. A lot of the older Model S batteries have failed due to moisture and corrosion issues.
Thanks for that info.
One of the best videos on LFP batteries 👌
@@sashank14311 Thanks Sashank. I’ll be making another one soon that will focus on my 1yr old Model Y. I’ll cover some basics of LFP prismatic cells and degradation too.
its great to have someone do the research for me. I saw your previous degradation video which gave me confidence to charge to 100%. However I've seen two others about LFP (not in cars) implying that they can last (almost) forever if kept at 90%, but presumable those batteries didn't have sophisticated BMS's. I charge mine from my solar panels as much as possible and today the car was at 90% and I reluctantly let my 3.5kW's flow into the grid. I think I'll take your advice and keep the SOC as high as possible when the sun shines now. My car is an MG4 but the principle must be very similar.
Thanks James. Yes, main thing is to trust the BMS to do it's job and keep DC fast charging for when you really need it. Yes, I agree the MG4 has the same basic chemistry but I dont know enough about its BMS to comment. It would be similar to Tesla and need to monitor energy flow as well as voltage for accurate SOC. Even when I was working with electric forklifts over 20 years ago they had this same principal to make the SOC more accurate and that was lead acid batteries.
Informative video! Thanks
Hard to understand how you can get these exellent results. My average for life time 7850km is 160Wh/km. I think we have the same model 2021 M3 SR+ RWD LFP battery .On full battery it show 406km range.
Appreciate your encouragement Batticha!
I’m charging my M3 rwd lfp to 100% maybe 2x a week. Never gets below let’s say 30% normally. Owned for 6 months. I don’t drive a lot but I notice almost no change.
Keep doing what you’re doing then! My opinion is it’s how you drive the car too. If you floor it everywhere then that isn’t good for the battery health either. I am somewhere in between and do a lot of driving. I now have an almost 1 year old model Y RWD and it is sitting just below 2% degradation. With 19000km.
Great insight Matt, keep making these video 👍👍.
Thanks for the encouragement and feedback!
It’s easier for a graph to show the story if the baseline of the y axis is at zero. One can then more easily see how small the degree of loss is
I agree. This was just a graph pulled out of TeslaFi. I’ll see if I can pull the raw data and graph it differently next time.
Im curious about the total energy usage (and therefore cost to “run” the car). The app showed 5357 kWH (ac + dc charge totals) and your video total has 30,000km. So that’s around 178wh/km.
Do you know if that ac charge total (ignoring dc) reported is the same as what your pulling out of the wall? Or what’s reached the car after losing some of it due to the inefficiency of the chargers. So the the total engery is greater again?
The drive total is 4204 kWH in the app and that would work out to 133wh/km (as advertised). So there is 1153kWh of charging that doesn’t move the car? Besides aircon etc, that difference would include sentry mode and other things that consume the battery at all times (driving or parked - when unplugged)
Regen is accounted in the total charge (8000) value below,(I assume).
I have a new Model Y I’m just curious for my own person expectations. it’s easy to say, the car does ~157wh/km and I drive X kms per year, my electricity cost X cents for kWH therefore it’s X dollars per year. its probably more reasonable to assume to extra 33% kWH??
If I’ve misinterpreted what some of those figures are please let me know as I’ve only used your video for reference.
Hi John. The kWh displayed in the car is what comes and goes from the battery and doesnt account for losses in between. Single phase AC charging is the ost inefficient at about 90% and 3-phase is around 95%. DC fast is even more efficient but the car burns a bit of extra power to heat the battery for DC charging. You can't win there are always losses somewhere. It cost energy to convert the 240V to around 400V at the battery. Most of this is lost to heat but some of this heat is recycled into cabin heating in winter reducing your HVAC consumption. I'm being a bit general here but unfortunately thats how it is. I can't remember if we have a chat going on Insta or Twitter but I can't attach pics here. Right now my car is at 37,058km 5264kWh 142Wh/km average.
@@notinthemanual thanks for the reply! Hopefully they can sort out some of the other efficiencies like heating, sentry mode (7% / day seems excessive to me) etc so those “costs” of ownership aren’t as high into the future.
The cars driving efficiency is great (for Teslas atleast).
Like you I have managed to charge mostly on solar for the 1000kms I’ve driven it so far! That’s with only 4kw solar system in winter outputting 2.2kw on a clear sunny day at best.
I seem to have a couple of John Smiths that have commented. Are you the John Smith from Tasmania? If you email me or DM me on Insta or Twitter I will send you through some screengrabs from TeslaFi on charge totals. Its not the full lifetime of the car but will give an idea of charging efficiencies. I might even end up posting these on the channel but not sure yet. Third party apps like TeslaFi or Teslascope can be a great source of information and allow you to better manage your energy usage. Most of my AC charging is now done with a 3-phase wall charger supplied by solar panels.
@@notinthemanual hehe no, a JohnSmith from QLD!
@@JohnSmith-zg5zz Let me know if you want more info. Tesla are constantly improving efficiency. You can now have sentry mode active without cameras but it will only capture footage if the car is physically impacted. I think Tesla are the most efficient when it comes to heating so it will be interesting to see how they could make that more efficient. The longer I own my EV the less I care about the tiny energy losses. It’s still less than running an ICE car. Even if it was the same I’d still prefer driving an EV.
I have the TM3 Highland 2024 SR RWD and I get an estimated 500 kms range on daily driving behavior. Lifetime consumption is around 113 wh / km
That’s great consumption. How many km do you have on it?
@@notinthemanual more than 3,500 kms now
@@ReyMattMD Efficiency is king. It’s one of the reasons Tesla sell so many cars.
What number you get on display when fully charged? @ReyMattMD
@@TimoteoCrnkovic approximately 430 kms
My new 24 Model Y LR is supposed to be 310 miles EPA range, but with 3 miles on it was estimated to be 301 miles. I charged to 100% and it made it to 304. Currently, after a few charges, it is estimated to 300. I'll never see the rated range listed.
That’s one of the first hard lessons you learn owning a Tesla. There is also no short answer to explain it. I don’t agree with it but the advertised range and the displayed range are different. The displayed range is pretty useless. I never use it as a practical thing as it doesn’t consider your driving style. It’s good for monitoring degradation but that’s about it. If you want real range figures then you need to use the built in energy app. On the other hand in certain driving situations you could exceed the displayed range if you just drive around on a daily flat road at 70km/h. The trouble is it’s fixed and doesn’t vary with your driving style. It’s the same with advertised consumption figures for gas cars. I’ve only owned one car where I could achieve those figures on a regular basis. It does need to change or people need to be made more aware of this before buying the cars. Range with electric cars is a confusing topic because everyone goes into buying their first EV with range as the most important feature when really it is efficiency. Most people will never use the full range of their car in one hit. Once you have owned and EV for a while you realise this and range becomes less important. This is why I have been very happy with the standard range Teslas.
Sorry for the long response but it’s a difficult topic. Your displayed range at 100% will vary as the battery cells find their settled capacity as opposed to their slightly inflated installed capacity. It has taken over 6 months for the LFP battery in my new MY RWD to finally settle at around 1.5% capacity loss from installed. It is now pretty stable but every now and then there is some imbalance when I charge ti 100% and I see around 5 or 6 km less on the displayed range. This usually sorts itself out next charge cycle.
I think that 52.5kWh figure you found online is the usable capacity of the battery (100% till 0%) whereas 'Nominal full pack' is 100% till the car stops moving so you can't really compare the two. That being said I do understand your point that comparing 'Full pack when new' to 'Nominal full pack' will give an exaggerated degradation figure because 'Full pack when new' does not take into account the settling in period of the battery before it reaches it's rated spec. Sadly I don't think there is any way to know for sure what the rated capacity of the battery after settling in period is since Tesla doesn't publish the figure.
Hi Roland. I totally agree. Degradation is a hard thing to assess when you don’t have all the facts. I think keeping an eye on the overall battery health is more important. Battery issues tend to be a few weak cells bringing the rest down. You can pick this up with some voltage sag tests and monitoring cell imbalance. A small amount of degradation will not affect the usability of the car. It would be very rare to need the full 100-0% capacity anyway. Thanks for your input.
Hello, thanks a lot for the information. I need a suggestion. I want to buy Torres EvX, it has an LFP blade battery from BYD and aerodynamic is not very good. I like though the car. It has estimate 460km range. Is it safe to say that I can do daily 150km driving for the next 10 years of the life of the car?
It’s hard to say based off the info you have given above. I would definitely be confident of my Model Y being able to do that. I don’t know anything about the Torres EvX. I’d factor in around 10% degradation over that time period. Based on the specs I was able to find it looks like real world range would be more like 350km and maybe closer to 250-300km at motorway speeds average. I think what you have asked for would be achievable. It has a very good warranty period, much better than Tesla. I haven’t watched any real world tests or reviews to see if published consumption is realistic.
Matt,did you get the external speaker installed and what do you think.Have considered this upgrade but it seems to be out of stock just like many products from Tesla which they don't seem to stock enough
Hi Max. Video is coming. It’s good. In forward it makes a white noise sounds like a pump running but in reverse it makes a loud humming sound which takes time to get used to. I think it’s too loud but it definitely warns people your backing up which is the main thing. It makes it much safer in car parks even if it sounds a bit funny. I had to wait about 6 weeks but my brother in law only waited 4 days. It’s luck. They are bringing a bucket load of them in but are struggling to meet demand.
Thanks Matt,looking forward to the next video
@@maxgill5620 Uploading this afternoon. Battery health check using service mode.
Thanks for all the info!!! Very helpful.
No problem.
I bought my SR Tesla Model 3 the 28 of January 2023 with 13 km. here in Australia. This car is supposed to have a range of 491 km. Now the odometer shows around 772 km and the range shows only 439 when is charged at 100%. It's a 10.6% degradation in a few kilometers. Unfortunately I did not read the range when I just bought the car, but although that figure is not very accurate (the 439 km) I find it a bit too far from the theoretical figure.
By the way: where you get this "Energy app" from? is it free?
The energy app is built into the car. Your car would not have been showing 491km when you first bought it. Most people have told me 439km is the range showing when new. So don’t worry your battery hasn’t degraded. 491km is the WLTP rated range and not used by the car. The base range display in the car is a fixed calc based on the EPA rated consumption figure. This doesn’t change with your driving style. The energy app gives you an accurate range based on your driving style. When navigating, the predicted range at arrival is accurate too as it considers weather and elevation.
Thanks Matt for another very informative video. I have a bought in Sep 2021 M3 which is also showing 407km at 100%. I have done 40,000km. I still wonder whether time or age is factored in by Tesla when they calculate the 100% range. There is a guy, Nathan, who has a similar aged M3 with LFP which is used for ridesharing, and I remember him commenting a few months ago that his car was currently showing 406km at 100% with 160,000 kms on the clock. And he also mentioned he charged to 100% every night. The time factor could also play into your theory of range change calculation changes after some of the OTA updates. Who knows?
Interestingly, my 100% range dropped from 407 to 398 about a month ago. I assumed that this was just a hickup and after letting the SoC drop significantly and a couple of 100% charges it reverted back to 407.
I'm pleased to here your thoughts on good LFP charging practice as I had basically adopted the same position. I probably charge to 100% once or twice a week.
I noticed in the comments that you have ordered a MY... I'm sure you'll be pleased with it. I have just replaced my wife's car with a BYD Atto 3. She prefers a more traditional car with knobs and switches and is very happy with it. I've enjoyed driving it and making some comparisons between it and the Tesla... it's smoother, the Tesla more responsive... but it does my head in constantly changing from a left to right indicator stalk 😅 Thanks again for the informative videos.
Thanks for the info John. I just want to create a good resource of info people to compare their experience. Its seems while our cars are reporting similar range prediction at 100% there are no major issues. I am very happy with where my car is at. It is very interesting about the rideshare car reporting the same range. Yes BYD is the closest competitor I think. LFP battery paired up with an efficient motor and HVAC system is always going to work well. The legacy auto cars are just so ineffcient and need very large batteries to do the same job.
time of age matters most. i have a mate doing uber 80000 km for the first year charging to 100% EVERYDAY. his Y shows the same 100% ranges left as mine (I only did 16000 km for the same time). we received our car in the same week.
I've driven >15k km with my MY RWD since December. Degradation according to S3XY app is 1.22% and the car still reports 418 km since the start. Charge 1-2x per week to 100%. Around 40% of charge is on Superchargers.
Yes. I don’t think this degradation figure is very accurate. It would be nice to turn this figure off😩
I have also model y rwd like yours and this morning I charged at 100% and shows 417km after 20.000 km and 7 months old car.
What you think will go on degradation since it losted 1 km?
@@niolait 1km is not much and it can fluctuate more than this.
Degradation is pretty similar or even above to NCM batteries , in 2 years and those kms around 6% ; 51,9kw of 55kw. I think the need of charging 100% for right measurement degrades this battery more despite or its quemicals, also degradation needs to be measured against the usable restricted battery capacity. For example , NCM LG batteries are 82kw and usable / enabled capacity is 78kw. Finally aging also degrades and for sure first years battery degrades more and then slows down by age and by usage. Long term 8-10 years or above cannot be compared yet with LFP. Let’s see.
@@creatorex1 Initial degradation will be more than NCM batteries and is expected. It’s been proven in other applications to taper off but we don’t have any 5-10year old LFP batteries in these Teslas yet. I will pull up some data for older LFP model 3s with higher km in my next video. I am going to make a video on my Model Y in the next few weeks. It’s just over 20000km. The
Hi Matt, My car is identical to yours with almost the same mileage (17,000 miles) and I'm sat at 407km @ 100%. When new it was 423 km @ 100%. SMT says Full pack when new = 55.1 kWh and Usable remaining 49.7. Add in the 2.33 buffer gives a battery of 52 kWh and SMT says Nominal Remaining = 52 kWh. If I use the energy graph I have 0.201 m/kw x 259 miles @ 100% = 52 kWh so everything lines up. I also use TeslaFi and it says I have degradation of ~4%.
Looking at your energy screen, it says 0.123 x 421 km = 51.78 kWh battery and SMT says 51.9 kWh, so close too... Usable remaining = 49.8 + the buffer 2.3 and you are at 52.1 actual battery capacity.
Keep up the good work in your Tesla journey!
Hi Kelvin. That’s great data. Thanks for taking the time to comment with that. It’s nice to have a comparison of a similar car. I knew my teslafi subscription would come in handy one day 😜. If you had told me back then I’d have a RUclips channel I wouldn’t have believed you.
Oh and I did a battery health test through service mode. Surprised at which figures it matches up with. Video coming very soon.
Would be interesting to get some data from someone doing shallow charging between 30% to 80% without supercharging. I wonder if the car would display a message to charge to 100% after a few months..
It would be interesting. I’ve had a few comments from people that had never charged to 100%. They were scared about degradation and they had not received a warning. I don’t know what their charging habits were like though. My thoughts are you wouldn’t receive a warning but you would eventually have some inaccuracies in your SOC that you probably wouldn’t notice unless you ran close to 0%. There are already a few suggestions to keep your charge limit to 100% both in the car and in the app.
Quick question: how often would you use a supercharger? and would that greatly affect the longevity of LFP batteries. My Y RWD is 2 months old now and still has the full 435kms of range.
Very informative video btw. Keep up the good work👍
Thanks Lawrence. I don’t use a supercharger very often. I am in the middle of a 2500km road trip and will supercharge more in this trip than I have in the last two years. The LFP chemistry is pretty robust but I would still recommend keeping supercharging for when you really need it. I have checked other similar age cars that have done a lot more supercharging than me and they have the same capacity.
I will hopefully get my Model Y RWD soon! The 3 is just too small with 3 teenage kids on a road trip. This is the last road trip I will do in this car.
There is no reliable way to know a state of charge of a battery. We rely on measuring and calculation and knowledge of equipments. The only known SOC is a construction, the voltages of an LFP only vary much when approaching 100% or 0% where you could do measurements, but then each cell has its own life. In the middle where you use your car the SOC is a blur. Only a computer knowing each second and logging each bit of energy in and out vs a supposed battery capacity can give you a figure % on screen.Also you cant go further if ONE cell goes below a set lowest value, or you can't charge more if ONE cell goes above set highest value. So if things do not go well the car can decide it is at 100% or 0% at any moment. Also voltage does sag when charging or accelerating, and after some time rest it recovers.
I agree with what you are saying but a healthy battery with a good BMS is very unlikely to go from 100% to 0% unless there is a major battery cell problem. Coulomb counting can be done pretty accurately it’s more the BMS understanding or calibration of the total battery capacity. This is most important when running down to very low SOC which I try to avoid. As you said it only takes one cell to drop below the threshold and the car will cut out. I try to arrive at a DC fast charger with 15% or more which allows for inaccuracy and unforeseen weather changes
@@notinthemanual Yes, today my DIY home battery went down deeper than the usual (3 straignt days of rain), ( it's a 7S system with recycled old 18650s ) and the 3rd row did go below 3,20V much earlier than the rest of the pack. so, in my own mind, because I do all by hand, my pack was around 7-10% and then the alarm went, and I decided that this was in fact 0% because of this weak link I found out about. I never tested this battery system so low in 10 years, so I was not aware of this limitation. The rest of the time the elements are all between 0,10 V of each other. I have no BMS, in therm of Management, I have only a BMS as of MONITORING. But the Tesla car should have a management that can resistively load the higher cells or under load the weak elements to keep the pack pristine for longer years.
@@AlexandreLollini I am pretty sure that Tesla use the DC-DC converter to bleed off the overcharged cells at 100% to assist with balancing. Just my theory I don’t know for sure. The cell imbalance is much higher just as it completes charge(180mV). It then settles down and the higher voltage cells bleed off and the imbalance drops back to 4mV after about 1 hour of rest. The overall voltage drops back from 407v at charge finish to around 350-360v in this same timeframe.
Hi Matt, thanks for the content. Really interesting. My M3 is 6 months new and I travel more than 150 klms per day. I charge to 100% every week night.
When I took delivery the stated 100% range was 440 klms. It’s now 432 which is better than I expected. Memory effect is something I will be keeping an eye on as I travel the same route most days. Thanks again. 👍
Thanks Nathan. Yes the trend with LFP is for the majority of the degradation to occur early in its life and taper off. I hope I illustrated that and gave people some piece of mind.
Hi I own a model y rwd Shangai CATL LFP battery after 7 months and 21000km :
until like tow weeks ago it was around 418 when it was charged at 100% now days it when I charge to 100% it only charges 416 km.
Any way that’s my degradetion after after 7 months.
P.S. I don’t charge every week at 100% but after like 10 days
@@niolait Thanks for sharing that. 2km is not much difference and can even be due to a slight temp difference. No need to worry. Mine fluctuates +\- 3km regularly
@@notinthemanual thank you so much for the advice and yeah I will keep you informed, in the development of the range degradation.
@@TarmoSundström-y9h I just took delivery of a new 2023 Model Y RWD with 60kWh LFP. I am going to keep a log of capacity and range from day 1. I should get an accurate idea of how much capacity loss there is after the new battery settles in. I’ll be able to subtract the difference between installed capacity and settled capacity to have a more accurate degradation figure long term.
I guess my question would be how safe is it to keep it at 100%? It is safe to keep it at 100% for a couple of days?
Yes. No problem with LFP. Keeping it at 100% is safe for battery health and fire risk (covered both angles of ‘safe’). It’s not under as much stress as other chemistries when at 100% SOC. It’s energy density is lower and it’s thermal runaway point is much higher. Some people think that it’s better for battery health to keep an LFP at 100%.
@@notinthemanual Interesting! Makes me wonder if Tesla should just do away with the charge limit slider function for the LFP Teslas
@@jalogrono It still has some use cases. I charge at work 90% of the time but at home I like to plug in when it’s cold as the battery preconditions faster and gives me good regen. I don’t want to charge at home so I set the slider at a point below my SOC so it doesn’t charge. It’s also handy when fast charging as you can play around with it to see how long it will take to charge to a specific percentage. Most of the time I do just leave it at 100% though.
I do not think that the wheel configuration has any effect on the range in TeslaFi. It is based on a fixed consumption and not exact down to 1 km range (sensitivity of voltage measurement as you state). Nor do I think that software changes shown has any effect - temperature of battery pack is much more important, as the voltage will slightly increase with temperature.
I have an M3LR 2021 and TeslaFi and ScanMyTesla as well, and very rarely charge to 100%. Here charging to 79.5% or 80.5% but car reports as 80% is much more significant (up to 0.75 kWh / 4 km).
Thanks Carsten. I have the TeslaFi battery report set to only show the range reported by the car at 100% state of charge not partial charge. Most of the time my LFP battery is kept at 100%. I would like to think that the software updates haven’t had an effect on range but there have been very noticeable drops in range after updates and I have also found this in ScanMyTesla too. It’s a big coincidence but this was mainly in the early life when Tesla were changing how the displayed range was calculated.
I agree though that temperature plays a part in this too which is why I don’t see the reported degradation as bad. I see it is a mixture of inaccuracies. TeslaFi only displays the range as reported by the car’s api. I can see a slight dip in the graph where I had my wheel configuration changed for a while.
Hi Matt, wonderful video. I don't like to drop too low as my tarrif allows just 4 hours from 12:30am for cheap elec. So i generally keep above 50%. Is it ok to rarely drop below 50%? Also, If I charge to 100% by 4:30am but don't use the car until say 5pm (not untypical as I'm retired) will this harm the battery?
Hi Nick. Thanks! Yes it’s fine to drop below 50%. I do that from time to time and it won’t harm the battery. Tesla actually recommend leaving your car plugged in when not using it even at 100%. You won’t harm the car. With the LFP you really only need to do it once a week. The best thing about the LFP is being able to keep it charged up to 100% all the time if you want and don’t stress about it.
I have a M3 Lfp, 1y2m old, have driven 23000 km, mostly charged at home type 2 (4kw), yet I have a 3.1% degradation, the maximal range now is 415 km, one week ago it was 425 km and 2.9% deg (according to Tessie app). What do you guys think? Feel like it’s a bit bad performance, especially that most of the time I drive in the city.
This is the hard period with LFP. They have a higher initial degradation than the other chemistries but the degradation slows down. It’s hard to believe that when you see the range drop. You need to remember this range figure is useless for anything other than looking at your battery capacity. The Tessie app is most accurate but even this does not consider the initial range loss due to the battery finding its settled capacity. My estimate is 1-2% loss from the installed capacity. I feel that the speed at which your battery degrades is not solely related to charging habits but mostly to do with your driving style where the battery delivers much higher currents than charging. It is a shorter load duty cycle but you are able to draw high currents when the battery is cold too. My 6 month old MY has dropped from the initial range at 100% of 435km down to 426km (2%) but I too noticed a big drop recently along with other people in the comments too. Possibly there has been a change in the latest update as the reported capacity in my car has not changed in the same degree. Tessie app for my car says 1.4%. That is where these third party apps are good as they monitor over a period of time and not just a snapshot. They also compare your car to the rest of the fleet. I do not think you’re 3.1% is anything to worry about but I agree it does feel a bit disappointing to see it. What you need to remember is that as long as it is close to the fleet average for degradation it is normal and this amount of degradation is not going to make any difference to how you can use the car unless you drive to 0% every time.
So, the 100% of the 'god' TESLA battery is not the 100% of the cell chemistry. You also have to charge above a certain per centage to activate the cell balancing feature of the BMS. Also charging to 100% of TESLA is to recalibrate how much energy the battery can still absorb/store and this is used to calculate the range. For battery longevity, avoid even charging to 100% of the TESLA world and rapid DC fast charging. The maximum voltage of the LFP cell is 3.65V. Occasionally charge to 100% should be the advice like every month. If only TESLA would officially mention at what SOC its BMS starts the cell balancing, that would have helped to the community.
Hi Pritam. I don’t think the BMS only uses SOC to determine when to balance the battery. It is also using the cell imbalance measurement to determine if balancing is needed. Balancing will be done during AC charging if needed, no matter what SOC you are at. There would even be a small amount of natural balancing done during conservative driving. The LFP batteries are not indestructible but are more robust than other chemistries. The lower internal resistance makes them less prone to imbalance in the first place. I have no problem charging my car to 100% regularly. Is not under a lot of stress at 3.65v per cell. There are valid reasons for and against but I feel the difference to degradation is minimal. I would rather have an accurate SOC. As the SOC accuracy decreases the BMS increases the size of the bottom buffer to protect the battery which means less available capacity. The biggest enemy to battery life is still excessive DC fast charging and discharging below 0%.
Thank you for commenting and sharing your experience.
@@notinthemanual What I wanted to say is Cell Balancing has to be triggered at a certain SOC level. It cannot be done at any SOC level. There is this gentleman from Australia too, who discusses a lot about cell balancing in his RUclips channel "The Off-Grid Garage", he specially discusses at what cell voltages he starts the balancing process and why. By saying discharging below 0% you should state it's in reference to the Tesla display.
@@notinthemanual I was introduced to LFP through Jack Rickard RUclips channel even before TESLA was talking about this chemistry publicly. In one of his videos, he explains how to get the most out of Li-ion cells by respecting the band between which to keep the SOC. He passed away in 2020. He was advocating for LFP usage in EV since 2008!
@@pritambissonauth2181 Yes LFP has been around for a long time. If his channel is still going I’d be interested in watching some of those vids. A lot of older techniques for managing battery health aren’t as relevant these days as the BMS is much more sophisticated. There are additives to the chemistry to minimise other concerns too. My biggest concern for LFP isn’t the chemistry but initial build quality. Yes I agree there is still an optimal window for SOC but at the top end I don’t think it makes enough difference to worry about. I charge to 100% once or twice a week but it never stays there for long. I run down to around 20% before I charge but I’m lucky enough to be able to charge at work off solar during the day. This gives me more flexibility. Some people don’t have the luxury of choosing when and where to charge. I used to leave my model 3 plugged in all the time as I only had access to slow charging. I think it would be rare for people to do this, at least once they have owned an EV for a while.
Great explanation! 🙂 If I am not using the car, would it be wise to keep the battery to 50%? And, my habit is to charge it every time to. 100% but charge only when it reaches 20-30%. I keep it plugged in but I immediately stop charging just to have that advantage for preconditioning. Is this ok? Thank you 🙂 👍
There is no benefit to keeping the car at 50% with LFP. Your habit sounds good and similar to me. The advantage of having a faster charger (7kW or more) at work or home is you have the freedom to charge in a smaller window allowing you to discharge further before charging. I do the same precon trick in winter when I don’t want to charge at home where I pay for the electricity.
Hi Matt, I have not been charging it to a 100% in the past 6 months. Do I need to bring the SOC down to 10-20% before I start charging it to 100% daily?
As far as I know it shouldn’t matter but maybe it would be good to do a full cycle from 20%-100% at some stage.
Or run it down to 10%. I’ve done that a few times and it didn’t make any difference to my capacity.
@@notinthemanual thank you
@@notinthemanual hey, just wanted to provide you with an update, after 2 weeks of continuously charging to 100% on a daily basis, my 100% SOC now gives me 271 miles. It was 250 miles when I first got the car.
I guess no degradation after all!
@@jasteech Great news. There is some variability so always good to give it some 100% charges to improve the accuracy. Thanks is for letting me know. This is good for others to read 👌
Hey Matt, if you Google
there is no memory effect Tesla
There’s a link to Tesla FAQs that state “Tesla uses lithium ion batteries so there is no memory effect”. Is this the same kind of memory effect you talk about in the video?
Hi John. No it’s not the same type of memory effect. They are comparing to the old ni-cad & ni-mh rechargeable batteries. No lithium ion batteries have that old memory effect.
If you search for LFP memory effect it should bring up different info. Basically it is charging to the same point over and over causing a small spike in the volts per cell at that point. This can confuse the BMS and affect your SOC accuracy. I only mentioned it as several people have brought it up in the comments. To be honest I doubt it would affect a sophisticated BMS system like Tesla has but I thought it would be worth mentioning in case anyone is told about it.
Young, Australian John Lithgow makes some good points here.
Haha never had anyone make that comparison before but I can see what you mean. I don’t know if that’s a good or a bad thing??? 😂
@@notinthemanual John Lithgow is awesome and also a pretty handsome dude, so I would say it’s a good thing!
@@davew2040x Cheers for the compliment then 😜 I’m still laughing about it. I can actually see some resemblance now except I still have my hair for now…..
Thanks for the great info! Subbed.
Cheers 😊
Awsome video! Thanks
Thanks for watching Emen!
Charging habits... unless you let it die over and over it won't matter keep it like you do a ice car ... between 1/4 to 3.4 full most of the trine and forget about it.
@@abelincoln3261 I agree but If you do put an LFP battery on charge it’s best to let it go to 100% for long term battery health to ensure cells are balanced. LFP cells have a slightly higher self discharge than other chemistries so need regular balancing. It’s probably still a minor difference in overall life but it’s a good habit to have. If you have ScanMyTesla hooked up you will see when the charge gets close to 100% how far the imbalance is and it’s surprising. This is when you see the true imbalance of the cells. I will demonstrate this in an upcoming video.
- Charge to 100% once/twice a week
- Optimally not supercharge
- Don’t leave it sitting on 100%
Sounds like good advice to me. Mine never stays on 100% for very long.
Very useful info. Thanks!
Thanks Pierre. Glad you found it useful. I have a new video to upload soon on initial battery specs for my new Model Y that you might find interesting. It will actually show why the degradation figure is less than calculated using ScanMyTesla due to the initial settling of the cells.
What do you reckon is the harm from time to time to let it go down to single digits (but not below 0)?
It’s more about the volts per cell than the SOC. At 0% there is still a bit of a buffer in the voltage. Doing this occasionally will be fine. I wouldn’t recommend going down to zero unless absolutely necessary. If the battery cells are out of balance all it takes is one cell to drop down below the voltage threshold and the car will cut out. On a fairly new battery the risk is low and if your SOC is accurate. If you have ScanMyTesla hooked up there is even less risk as you can monitor cell voltage levels.
Greetings to everyone from Turkey. After 29000 km, my battery health was 95.54%. Is this situation normal? My vehicle is MG4 standard range LFP. I usually charge it with 2.7kw in my parking lot.
Hi Fatih. I am not familiar with MG4 in general but my first thoughts are that your figures sound ok. I am not surprised by them. How are you measuring this battery health figure? With Tesla there is a reported installed capacity that is very different from the real capacity once the battery has settled over a few months. This can make the degradation seem worse than it is but remember LFP does most of its degradation early in its life and slows down.
Legendary vid.
@@dangunsuh5594 Cheers. I’m happy to have been able to help so many people with this video. I’ll have a couple more coming in the near future. I just hit 20000km on my MY and my brother in law just hit 50k on his 55kWh M3 like the one I used to own in this vid.
Lfp by catl is suppose to have 5000 cycles. 5000 cycles x 200 mile range is 1 million miles bud. That is to 80% remaining capacity. Cobalt has 300 cylces to 100%, but you can double that to 90%, double that to 80% and double again at 70%. I charge to 75% to about 2100 cycles at 228 miles lr model y. So your lfp is better than my lr imho. The only benefit is on trips i can charge 100% at a destination charger and have 304 mile range.
Thanks for the info. I’ve found it hard to find accurate cycle info specific to the CATL LFP packs used in Teslas. Most info I found was saying 3000 cycles for LFP so 5000 sounds better to me. I just traded this car for a Model Y RWD which has the 60kWh CATL pack. ScanMyTesla showed the car reporting 130 cycles after 40000km so that roughly lines up. Range is a personal situation thing. This Model 3 with the 55kWh pack had more range than I ever needed. If I strayed from the convenience of the Supercharger network it would be nice to have some extra range though. I use about 10% round trip for my commute and don’t road trip very often. I wish I got the LR dual motors now every time I see the off road test video Tesla released 😜
I’ve seen a few articles now saying degradation has proven to be less than expected for most older Teslas. I think in 5-10years time we will see if we are right about LFP in EVs. Tesla has a great BMS so will definitely be in a better position than lesser systems. Thanks again for sharing that info. That’s what I love about the comment section. Shred knowledge 👍
Haha ‘shred’ knowledge. Should have written shared. Autocorrect must be picking up on my MTB slang 😂
M3 RWD 272miles and 261miles after 40.000 miles (4% degradation)
@@lassewestvanghougaard4856 that’s pretty good thanks for sharing
lfp you need to totally discharge down to 5 miles then back up to 100 do this every 50 charges why lfp has a long drop off and its software based to calculate range then do 30 percent to 80 percent
@@reggiebannister1080 LFP gives you the freedom to charge based on what suits you best as long as you top up to 100% every week or so. Just keep it simple and don’t think about it too much. I prefer to top up to 100% weekly so the battery has a proper balance at full charge. Some people prefer to just leave it plugged in every night and charge to 100% daily. They too have commented here having minimal degradation. I think your driving habits have more of an effect on battery health.
Thank you for this very informative video 👍
Appreciate you watching Paul!
The consumption calculation on telsa is disappointing. My MG zs ev dynamically calculates km left based on driving style, weather etc. It's probably the biggest thing I will miss when I move from my MG to tesla model y. Looks like the info is there on the tesla but I need to dig deeper, or use abrp.
Yes most other cars have a dynamic range display. I don’t even use it. You just don’t need it. The only time I even look at a range display is when I’m deciding whether to skip a charging stop on a long trip. I know you have mentioned you have a long commute before. Moving to the bigger range Y will be an improvement. The energy app is just one touch away if you need it. I honestly don’t think it will be an issue for you.
@@notinthemanual thanks mate. I am still on the fence about the long range vs the rwd model y. I do like the idea of the LFP battery longevity. And I'm struggling to justify 12k more in price for such a small increase in range. Especially considering the supposed lifespan of the LFP battery. One thing I'm a little worried about is what happens with the LFP battery when I leave work in the evening and battery is cold and I have to drive down the Toowoomba range which is an elevation change of about 650m. In my MG zs ev which has a nickel based battery I get full regenerative braking all the way down even on a cold day with a cold battery. I'm wondering if I will get the same regenerative braking with the LFP model y on a cold day when car has been sitting all day.
@@NaughtyGoatFarm I can tell you 100% you won’t get the full regen even if you precon. It’s never bothered me and I have some hills on my daily that regen gets chopped back on. It’s not the Toowoomba range though. Some of these things bothered me before I bought the car but it’s a personal thing and they don’t bother me at all now. As a percentage you will still only use the brakes a fraction of what you would in an ICE car. Once you look at a long range there are a few more cars to choose from at that price point. If the long range is made in US I would be concerned with build quality too. No one can tell you 100% what will happen with LFP batteries in 10years time but based on other applications they have a very good lifespan. This too comes down to build quality as well as the chemistry. Time will tell. I just want to present the facts to everyone to make their own choice. I didn’t hesitate to order LFP again with the RWD Y I have on order.
@@NaughtyGoatFarm It’s a lot of money so it’s good you are taking your time to make the right decision. You already have the benefit of being an existing EV owner. The longer you take the more likely it is that the car will have new features.
👍 Hello Matt! Great job! My M3 2021 is MIC LFP 52.5 kwh usable as new - now in spring is reported as 51.8 kwh after 28k km - zone is Europe RO!
I observed that somectimes in the winter when is cold the buffer is adjusting and the usable cap is going up to 52.2 - 52.3 kwh. 😎
Tesla FTW!
So who cares about degradation? 😊
Thanks Adrian. I have found other cars from this same time period have almost the same useable capacity as ours. I have noticed the useable capacity changing too but it doesnt get as cold here as Europe. LFP FTW is right. I have just ordered a Model Y RWD with LFP.
@@notinthemanual Great! I just wait for the review of the new MY!
@@AcDc55Kwh I’ve got a bit of a wait unfortunately 😩 Lucky I have an awesome car to drive while I wait for it 😉
Hey Adrian, im from Netherlands. Wondering how you get around with so little fast chargers when you drive around Romania? I was checking out if i could drive there but many spots i could not come because of the lack of chargers. Hopefully your government and Tesla will improve to install many more chargers !!! (Me owning a Model 3 RWD LFP with 60kWh
I know some people say you can charge LiFeP to 100% that it doesn’t affect your longevity. That is incorrect. Charging any Li-ion battery to 100% shortens the numbers of cycles. LiFeP just have more cycles to work with and are less susceptible, but they aren’t impervious to this type of degradation. Tesla only guarantees 70% capacity after 8 years and 100,000 miles. So they aren’t concerned about it. The problem is how much value does an 8 years old Model 3 with only 70% capacity remaining have? If you don’t mind losing almost your entire investment in your car in 8 years that’s not a problem, but myself I would absolutely want to keep my capacity over 90% so it still have some value. The lease deterioration in Li-ion batteries occurs stored at 40% charge and cycles of 20%. My routine is to normally charge up to 65% and not recharge until it gets to ~40% and not drain it normally below 30%. Of course for trips I charge up to 80% and recharge at ~30%I also keep my car in an underground garage that keeps it cooler. The cooler you keep the batteries without freezing them increase longevity. Of course the big drops occurs over 25°C. But it contains to improve below 25°C. It is also much easier to keep to keep a battery warm than to cool it.
That’s too complicated and impractical for the majority of people. Yes it will probably preserve some life but it’s impossible to say exactly how much. My feeling is going to this trouble will make very little difference. An LFP battery charged to 100% is much less voltage and stress than other chemistries. This basic fact is where its strength is. Not charging an LFP to 100% can also cause damage so I think it’s best to strike a balance between what you do and what is practical. No one knows exactly how current LFP battery technology and materials will last in EVs. There are so many more variables other than chemistry. I am more concerned about original build quality than charging habits. Moisture ingress is not great for any battery but worse for LFP.
So don’t do what TESLA recommends?
Battery hystersis is the "memory effect"
Thanks my knowledge on that side of things is limited. From what I’ve read half decent BMS manages this. I’ll be reading more on this and hopefully be able to explain it a bit better next time.
We just had a LFP battery “meltdown” going through Arizona 116 degree heat. 40-50% of charge disappeared relative to projected use. We were driving below speed limit. Anyone know how this happens?
Without a lot more information it’s hard to say. I’ve driven in those temps many times here in Australia without issue. Had you just supercharged? What temp was the battery? I’ve had my battery temp close to 60degC (140degF) without problems. LFP chemistry is more tolerant of heat so this is strange. When had you last charged to 100%? Which range display changed? What did Tesla service say? They can look back a couple of weeks and see what happened. Longer if you mark a bug report at the time.
@@notinthemanual I had supercharged to about 90% at Gila Bend, AZ in 116 F heat then started driving. Don’t know how to get battery temperature.
@@jacksmack2382 Very strange issue. Car still should have been able to manage in those temps easily. Consumption obviously goes up with HVAC usage in extreme cold or hot but to be that far out is strange. I’d start a service case with Tesla and get them to look at the data. As long as it wasn’t too long ago they can pull everything up. If it happens again you can log a bug report with voice control or press the car symbol you use to access settings for a few seconds and it will automatically log a bug report. This takes a snapshot of the vehicle system data for a period and keeps it there to be viewed later. Normally Tesla service can only look back a couple of weeks. You can view battery temps in service mode, ScanMyTesla or S3XY buttons dashboard. Do you charge to 100% regularly? Just wondering if it’s a BMS calibration issue. I’ve heard stories of inaccurate SOC with LFP but mostly in cold weather and low SOC. A charge to 100% resets the BMS and keeps the SOC accurate.
@@jacksmack2382 Which range display were you using? Navigation, energy app or GOM? Energy app would be the best with the consumption screen set to last 50km is best for trips. Most other screens including the arrival SOC in nav don’t adjust fast enough to changes in conditions.
@@notinthemanual charged to100% that morning; supercharged to maybe 80-90%, enough that next supercharger was supposed to have >30% on arrival; put a service request into Tesla but it may be too late
I wanna see it after 800,000km.
Why?
This is a 1000000km battery. Not 800000km.
degradation is serious for your tesla, i am 6 month, 5000 miles, and it's 269 miles when at 100%, yours is 252 miles.
It’s not that bad. My car only has the 55kWh battery and yours would have the 60kWh. The degradation that my car has is inline with expectations. LFP is not immune to degradation but is much less long term. You can see from the graph it is similar to other cars with the same battery capacity.
@@notinthemanual oh i c, I thought you have 60kWh battery.
Does the manual tell you about the chemical you are not allowed to talk about or post about here. Not one video ever made about the battery technology mentions this chemical. And if I was to attempt to post the name my comment will never be seen by anyone except me on my YT comment section. So one must ask why. Why can't you post the name of a chemical? They are obviously trying to hide the true facts.
@@enigmaticloremaster1700 I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. You can spell it out with dollar signs and other symbols if you are worried about it. No one has told me about this super secret chemical I’m not supposed to talk about. They left me out of that memo. There are no conspiracies on this channel.
@@notinthemanual the chemical is a PFAS chemical Bis-FASIs to be exact using the abbreviation. Each time I post the full chemical name of this chemical the post is never visible to the public. So it makes me wonder why they disallow this chemical to be named. Research it yourself and try to tell someone and you will see what I mean..
@@enigmaticloremaster1700 the abbreviated version of that chemical is enough everyone knows about that chemical it’s nothing secret
@@enigmaticloremaster1700 I don’t see the point of your comment. This video wasn’t a chemistry lesson. It’s obvious most goods we buy as consumers these days have nasty chemicals used in the material or the manufacturing process. It’s highly unlikely but if this PFAS chemical is used in batteries then at least it is contained in a battery and not burnt and spewed into the air for all of us to breathe in. There would be much worse chemicals than that used in manufacturing many products. I’ve always said if you want to save the environment don’t buy as much disposable products if you don’t need them especially cars, gas or electric. They all use a lot of resources and nasty chemicals to manufacture.
@@notinthemanual yes chemicals are used in many things that destroy the environment but most break down not bis-FASIs they stay in the environment forever. Are highly toxic to all lifeforms. My point is they have lied to us all saying how great and green this technology truly is. When it actually pollutes the planet much more than petroleum products ever could.
Again what is the app that your were using?
Hi Ian. It’s called ScanMyTesla. The first video I ever made has all the info you need. ruclips.net/video/UWXZMwNbv9A/видео.html
I would keep my battery at 20-50 % for daily driving. Only on certain occasions to 100%
@@Martinko_Pcik the good thing about LFP is most of these different charging methods make very little difference to the overall life and degradation. So choose a method that works for your situation. The worst thing to do is to drive around with your foot to the floor everywhere. High discharge current is just as bad as the opposite direction. Other don’ts are running down to zero or keeping it at 100% for long periods when the battery is at very high temps like after supercharging.
Charging to 100% also has the benefit of balancing the cells. LFP needs balancing more often and unbalanced cells with lower voltage suffer more as they become a weak link. Even this is a minor thing with overall life when it comes to a well designed & built battery.
Sorry but had to give a thumbs down. After 5 minutes of watching got tired of waiting for your to get to the point and say what is in your title.
No problem. My videos aren’t for everyone. Degradation isn’t a black and white topic and needs explaining. I put chapters in for people that don’t want to listen to the whole video. I just checked and 10 seconds into the degradation figures chapter I show the figures so this could have saved you 5mins. 55.1kWh when new and 51.9kWh after 2 years.
I thought this was a degradation report? Gave up after 6 minutes.
It is but degradation is a grey area that needs to come with explanation. You just need to give it more than 6mins. This channel is long format so maybe not for you. I don’t like to leave anything out.
@@notinthemanual Remember that some of your audience has EVs and/or is well informed.
@@approots I realise that and put chapters in for that reason. It’s difficult to cater for everyone. I’m still pretty new to this so I’ll take your advice on board. Maybe I’ll make a short to go with videos like this and you can watch the full length to get the more of an explanation. Degradation itself isn’t complex but how each car reports it is. It takes ten seconds to tell you my cars reported 100% SOC range has gone from 424km down to 407km but that is far from realistic or the full story.
22:26 Talking kak for more than 22 minutes
I’m doing pretty well if it takes 6 months and 23000 views to get my first negative unhelpful comment 😂