BMW M Dual-clutch transmission and Porsche PDK transmissions DCT DSG
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2024
- I get a lot of questions about the behavior of the dual-clutch transmissions in the M cars and the Porsche PDK cars.
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1:19 "Johnny, you've got to change your ways." LOLLLLLLLLLLL
Another great video nick! Keep up the good work, the quality of video is just amazing!
From Melbourne Aus
This is really one of the best videos you've ever made... Thanks!!
Great explanation Nick, I knew the DCT had an even and odd side, but your video helped me understand it much better. Also the "shaki-ness" in the transmission when the car is cold at take-off is also when the RPM's are limited during the warm-up period you described in an earlier video. Love my M4, so keep the videos coming. They're great!!
Super helpful, I thought I knew everything about DCTs, looking forward to getting one in my next car
Great insight - thanks Nick. Just about to move from a torque converter to PDK myself in a couple of months, so perfect timing. Keep up the good work!
I have an M4 too and I'd like to add that it is possible to engage creep mode by tapping the gas ever so slightly. In a traffic jam for example instead of feathering the gas all the time you can just tap it once and the car will behave like a torque converter as explained in this video. I really like this feature.
This video really helped out. Thanks Nick all the way from London!
Probably my favourite Nick Murray video :)
Great video again Nick and very well explained; I look forward to more from you.
Rob
Yet another great video Nick, really informative regarding single and dual clutch automatics!
Regards
Robin
Very nice video Nick! I only knew the high-level points of a DCT and this was a good explanation without going into too much detail.
Another great video Nick. Your the best!
This was better than Engineering Explained
+Alex Stern I enjoy EE's videos, but they're a bit dry and he's not as engaging as nick is. but those videos are certainly very detailed and the engineering is spot on.
It was also not completely correct. There's no slipping (in literal meaning) and definitely no friction in a torque converter. It's purely hydrodynamic. That means the "slippage" doesn't wear anything out and you can freely "creep" as much as you want.
+Pr3dator SvK I did not say the slippage would wear the torque converter? I said the slippage would wear the wet clutch in the DCT.
Nick Murray Yeah, you didn't :). I was talking specifically about the slipping and friction and it's just nit picking. I've mentioned the rest about no wear, because you didn't :).
If there was friction, something would wear out eventually. In reality it is just oil that's being spun up by a turbine, which pushes on impeller and rotates it. They're not even touching, so there's no friction happening. :) For better explanation refer to EE videos :D. (Not you Nick, I know you've good understanding of how it works. Other folks for whom my explanation doesn't make any sense, but are still interested how torque converter works.)
+Alex Stern +Engineering Explained shots fired
You did a fantastic job of explaining this! Keep the videos coming nick I was feeling antsy between uploads.
Perfect timing with this video! I test drove an M4 today, and it was my first experience with a DCT. Have to admit it was a strange feeling for such a powerful car to not move when I took my foot off the brake. Thanks for the great explanation.
Dealership can code it for creep mode if you want. Enabled causes the car to creep forward when you release the brake. With it disabled, you would have to tap the accelerator to begin creeping forward.
Thanks for the detailed demonstration and explanation of the operation of DCT transmissions.
Excellent contents and presentation. keep up the good work Nick.
Wassup nick, I assumed that you were going to be this boring dude talking about cars, I subscribed anyways. Now am quite impressed with your videos. You actually made a topic I would've thought was boring to be really informative and exciting my man. Great job bro and keep up the good work God bless.
Nick!!! I could listen to M4 talk all day!!! Keep it up!!!
An exquisite review, my Nicky Boo.
Good video Nick. Keep up the good content.
You deserve more subs Nick!
Thanks Nick for your very informative video. I Used to have dual-clutch Audi and now I have traditional BMW automatic. I always was a bit puzzled because of the differences of those vehicles.
Very well explained Nick, I finally understeand it.
That was a very good explanation of the Dual Clutch Transmission. :)
Great video Nick
Transmission explanation was fantastic
extremely helpful vid, ty kiwi nick
Great video and I love the DCT in my Bimmer! I still get to participate in driving the car but don’t have to worry about a clutch pedal.
Rick
Nicks the Best!
I'm kind of embarrassed to say this, but I really laughed at the lubrication-joke from the gorilla ( 2:16 ).
As always I loved the video, I take lots of enjoyment out of this channel.
Greetings from Germany :)
Should be gettin an M2 this year with the DCT so this is real helpful, thanks :) I currently have the M235i (great car btw, was thinking of trying to do a comparison video for all those downcrying the M235i once I've had a chance to drive the M2) with the ZF gearbox and it's lovely and smooth and quick so I would have been suprised myself if the M2 felt a little jerky or shuddery. Keep up the good work squire :D
Excellent video!
Very informative - Cheers Nick!
Great stuff Nick
Thanks
Very professional video! Just that the "jerkyness" when its cold is because of the higher rpm of the engine because its trying to warm up as fast as possible, so when the cultch engages its at higher rpm than when engine is warm
good video nick
The ZF 8 speed automatic transmission is really good as well. It was pretty close to the DCT I had in my E90 M3.
Great video man! I personally prefer PDK over all of the transmission except the ones used in 458 and newer Ferraris.
PDK can do up shift so much quicker than M4 Dual Clutch in manual mode. Under the circumstance that your speed is allowed to change say from 2 to 7, you can shift your gear up manually within very short amount of time. The Dual clutch in M4 can do 3 gears up shift and will generate delay after that.
...and you have good taste in music as well as cars... Big Log by Robert Plant - a personal fave
Great video Nick! You made a complex subject very easy to understand. Let me know if you're ever in the San Francisco area. I have a few cars for you to try out. 2015 M4 6MT (soon the have Burger Tuning items) 2015 Boxster GTS and 2015 GTR (COBB Stage 2). The JDM area might be an interesting comparison vs all the Euro stuff.
Great explanation.
Let's all take a moment to remember how hard it is to change gear in a manual transmission car while eating a hamburger, not to speak of how embarrassing it is to stall the engin.
+j kd'n I winder if that Camaro still runs
I really liked this type of video
Nice Video !!! Please test drive Porsche 991.2 C4 PDK / 991.2 C4 M
great video
A great explanation on the differences between the 2 transmissions. With the creep mode, my M4 is a real bugger to park in tight spots. moving a few inches ahead is near impossible. Any suggestions?? cheers from Ken in Sydney Australia
Great explanation!
An additional reason that the DCT and PDK are more finicky when cold is they use a wet clutch (immersed in oil) which is more sensitive to temperature due to oil viscosity. Manual transmissions use dry clutches and don't have to deal with a change in oil viscosity effect the grip and grab of the clutch.
The BMW DCT is actually warmed when cold by the engine coolant which in turn is cooled by the same coolant once it gets up to temp.
Hey nick, you plan on reviewing previous m cars?! I would like to a e92& e46 m3 reveal some time
Review
Good video. Interesting tidbit. I have a 135i with a dual clutch. BMW programmed if differently than the M3/M4. If you take your foot off the brake at a stop it engages. I much prefer the way they programmed the M3/M4. It also feels more direct and precise in the M3/M4. It's the reason my next car will be a manual.
Interesting point on the creep and clutch slip. I guess the more the cars are driven in traffic jams with lots of stop/start at ultra slow speeds the worse the wear on the transmission will be. Will we see a lot of city cars needing expensive transmission rebuilds at, say, 50k miles? The beauty of a manual is that you can press the clutch pedal all the way and coast in these traffic conditions - lessening the slip and, thus, the wear.
Very informative. I did not know that dual clutch transmission's do not have a torque converter!
I have a Mercedes W176 DCT and have exactly the same symptoms as u describe. Most of the time the first 30 minutes of driving i can feel the gear changes. The shifting feels only smooth when i lift the gas slightly before the gear change. I thought that DCT was suposed to be a smooth shifting transmission... Thanks for the explanation.
You're a legend mate 😂❤
I bought a 2017 Hyundai Tucson with a DCT about a year ago. I love it now but there was a distinct learning curve to understand before I felt confident while driving it. I discovered all of the quirks that you have mentioned. I have learned to switch between automatic and manual mode in order to eliminate the quirks. thanks for the video.
Hi Nick, very interesting and informative Thank you. I wish my Land Rover discovery 4 had a duel clutch transmission. It's a wonderful car to drive but a little more responsive gear box would make it even better. By the way, the size of those shacks that you were passing. Where was this Nob Hill?
Very good Video- I got everything although not beeing a native speaker
Good informative video, Nick. Funny, my 6 MT e46 M3 likes to shudder on cold mornings starts as well. It could be genetic.... ; )
Niiiice! This clears things up more and considering that M4 likely has the Getrag, I bet it sounds lovely smashing through the gears!
Question though; Is 'DSG' just VW language for DCT or is there something significantly different about a that transmission that warrants the rebrand?
Went with a DSG in my Volkswagen Passat TDI company car. I dont want to drive a manual anymore, atleast not in a daily driver. Its fast, its smooth and doesnt need more fuel than the manual version of the car. Only downiside is the slighty harsh rollon from the standstill sometimes...
Nick, have you encountered anyone with a high mileage M3? I am really keen on what the longevity of these transmissions are, given just daily driving. I am planning on getting an M3 and although I would prefer a manual, living in NYC, a DCT might be a wiser choice.
When you ordered your M4, did you pay MSRP. I'm pretty sure I'm going to order a 2017 c63 S coupe. The dealer said they don't give any deals on AMG cars. I'm still debating if I should get the c450 instead. Mostly for the all wheel drive, when I go to the mountains.
Great explanations the pdk is the best but the m3 trans has been the first or one of the first
Hi Nick, enjoy your videos, I have a 991.1 Carrera 2013 it doesn't immediately engage from park to drive, similar to some of the descriptions that you gave in this video, I have been told by a very well respected uk Porsche dealer that this may mean the gearbox could in time fail entirely? In all other respects at any speed the gearchanges are perfect in this phenomenal car, what would your thoughts be??
Can you review the 228i? I've heard it's very underrated and I was looking at an entry level german car to buy sometime soon
Nick,
Have you ever driven an E46 M3 with the "SMG" single clutch gearbox? It's very crude compared to a dual clutch gearbox, but it's also a lot of fun for the same reason.
I'm thinking of getting a Sakhir Orange Metallic M4 for my next ride. Does the color wear on you or do you still like it as much as the day you picked it up?
So, is it easy to park in a tight space?
In some other cars, you can pre select gear by touching the paddle, no?
You should try posting this on BP forums Nick.
Some of them would enjoy it :)
Somewhere in CT looks very much like 84 west in Waterbury
What about getting stuck in traffic with the dual clutch trans, keeping it from over heating?
Best explanation I've seen of how the two different autos work... Well, for my simple brain, anyway. Just wondering if DCT clutches wear out as quickly as in manual cars... Do you need to replace your clutches in a DCT every ~50k miles?
+Matt Motion I had the DCT in my 2008 M3 and did 100,000 HARD miles in it and no problem. I believe many of them will last the life of the car.
hi nick, do you find that there is a hesitation when the gear is upshift to second with full throat??? i find this kind of situation in my m4, it always makes me lose few meters as my car is upshifting when i take a drug race with my friends.
I own a VW Jetta with a 7 speed dry clutch set up. When I stop at a light, what is the proper procedure to save my clutches? Is it necessary to put the vehicle in neutral?
well done.
Dear Nick
Just one detail about the torque/transmission = no actual mechanical link between engine and the transmission it is a hydro transfer (transmission oil) the torque converter is bolted to engine (spin) a little like two salad bowl put together the one on the engine side has fins to propel the tranny oil on the propeller for the tranny, the transmission has a shaft that hook to like a windmill propeller inside the torque converter that is why manual are more economical because no lost of friction. example 2016 Mercedes S COUPE = S63 Dual clutch, S65 torque tranny
Well done Nick...
Sincerely yours Dave (Canada)
Really good explanation, thanks !
Because of your previous video comparing a DCT M4 vs MT M4, I'm now hesitating between ordering a MT or a DCT BMW M2.
Hooo, it's not entirely your fault. I sold my AT M235i to buy a BMW 1M (no choice). But I still don't know what to choose for the M2. What do you think ?
nick, pdk or the M dual clutch? i know they're both great but you had the chance to drive both so im curious to know your opinion! keep up the great work
I had an E89 35i with the DCT and I wasn't a huge fan. When I put my foot down there was always a very long delay before the car actually started accelerating. It felt like the throttle itself was asleep or something. Very annoying as you couldn't just plant your foot to overtake, you had to anticipate when you could overtake and plant your foot a couple seconds before. It was so weird that I doubt it was normal.
And yes, a light throttle would get the car moving at idle. Had to hold down the brake to start the car.
My subsequent Golf GTD mark VI had the DSG and it was a lot more quick witted than the BMW's. Smoother too. Had one gear fewer though. But it wouldn't let me cruise around in a higher gear at lower speeds, which would be perfectly possible with all the diesel's torque. I hated hearing that droning engine at low speeds. I could start the Golf without holding the brake.
Nick - the DCT might be more energy efficient than some torque converters but it seems that the ZF8 speed has done away with that. All BMWs with the ZF8 speed have less consumption than manual. I am unaware of any car model with the same engine which offers both ZF8 speed and DCT to see which of the two consume less, but would be interesting to know.
Great videos Nick!
When will you be doing a comparison between your M4 and a Lexus RC-F?
+Conrad Lam Yuen I don't know, the owner of the RC-F has gone quiet on me.
I've learned something today.
As a owner of a F30 3er with the 8 Speed ZF and previously a S5 with S-tronic/DSG 7 speed. I prefer the ZF 8 Speed, with BMW mapping in Sport+ it up shifts at 150ms comparable to a Ferrari 430 without any jerkiness (win, win to me). Now PDK is a whole different story...
I have a 335is and it also has a DCT but it creeps forward without pressing on the gas....it also has a park button unlike the M's..why is that?
Nick, you should put firm pressure on the brakes when you're stationary because if someone hits you in the back, or even if there is a car behind you and that car is hit from the back and then hits you, you're way less likely to hit the car in front of you.
Of course, the car probably automatically applies the brakes until you press the accelerator (i.e. hillstart style), but I'm not sure how hard the brakes are on in this case.
If there's enough space in front of you, where you can roll, the hit will be more gentle and the damage smaller, if you're not holding the brake. Also your instinct is to slam the brakes any way, so you won't roll super far.
Ummm what, smaller damage when not holding the brake? Please elaborate
If you're holding your brakes and someone rear ends you, it's like he hit the wall (figuratively). The energy has to transfer immediately. If you're in neutral, you will roll forward, so the energy has more time to transfer. Imagine kicking a ball in a empty space vs kicking a ball resting against a wall. In the first case, it rolls away, in the second case, you hurt you feet real bad.
Yeah, but you only have to repair the rear.
Jeez nick, you are smarter than you look. Good one
Understanding how the trans works and driving it accordingly works very well. But I will say they are not automatics even if there is a mode for it. These are manual transmissions without a clutch pedal. The driver needs to drive the car as a manual, controlling the clutch with his gas pedal and rpm shift points
. Some may not want to invest the time but some will like the 500hp ball of fun the M3 and others have to offer with this transmission. It really makes the M3 into something I want to drive.
Thanks good to know
How is the BMW DCT in your F82 ///M4 compared to the Porsche PDK/Audi S -Tronic/Volkswagen DSG?
#1 Drove the 2018 240i with the ZF 3 8 speed very quick changes
#2 drove the 2018 911 4s with PDK this was much more Quicker with regards to Shifting
#3 None of the DCT will give U that Massive snap; this only comes from a sinlge Clutch/Paddle like my 99 355. the 360/430 and Gallardo all have single clutches that are jerky when in the City but on the freeway, fuking awesome
Nick can you test a Mini Cooper S Works the new one
Ok Mr. Smartie pants. Wait until you experience Grapo's ZF. It is a big/heavy gearbox. But my God it's brilliant. It really is the best of both worlds.
+Wavehogger You and that purple monster.
what is a jewel clutch transmission?
Very informative video Nick, thanks. I was wondering what are your thoughts on the 8 speed automatic used in the BMW M235i and Jaguar F types? I've heard many people say that they are the best for spirited driving, considering that they are torque converters. Also, what are your thoughts on the 911 R? I'm sure they're all sold out and bound to go up in value!
+smilepermile Yes the 911 R was sold pre sold to 918 owners. The 8 speed autos are pretty impressive, very quick and very smooth. I think for the F type I would prefer the MT however.
+Nick Murray You say that but I don't think you would, the MT in the F-Type hasn't really gotten positive reviews.
+Nick Murray How did they make the zf 8 speed so impressive, giving the performance of a dual clutch but with more comfort? Also, is a dual clutch gearbox heavier than a torque converter?
Is it dangerous to go below 4mph ? Dıd I understand correct ?
Hey Nick, in your video comparing your standard M4 to the chipped and tuned one, you mentioned you definitely wanted to get a chip + wheel spacers. Why did you decide not to?
+Edron7 Two reasons. 1. I use my car to compare to other cars in videos so nice to have it stock. 2. Tuning and other mods devalues the car and I am planning on selling it soonish so want to keep it at top value.
+Nick Murray So we're going to see you in a brand new 911 4S or Turbo? :)
So that isn't really how a torque converter works. It's not a lubricated clutch. It's fluid being spun outward (the pump aka engine) forcing a turbine to spin (attached to the drivetrain) and is hydrodynamics rather than lubricated plate friction. There's some cool animated videos that explains it.