Courts and Prison in Germany VS the USA
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- This is the second part of a video I made on the criminal justice system in Germany in comparison to the United States. This video focuses on judicial courts and prison systems in these two countries. I talk about predatory prosecutorial tactics, discrimination within the jury selection process, sanctions used by both countries as punishment for crimes, and the US "War on Drugs".
If you have any experiences, let's start a dialogue! Subscribe to my channel and comment below.
Here is an interesting video that explains discrimination within the jury selection process: www.vox.com/vi...
Here are some resources you can use to learn more about the topic of racism and it's manifestation in society (particularly within the United States).
- Podcast: Pod Save the People with DeRay (Crooked Media)
- Podcast: The New York Times' 1619
- Podcast: Code Switch (NPR)
- Book: So You Want to Talk about Race - Ijeoma Oluo
- Book: The New Jim Crow - Michelle Alexander
- Book: White Fragility - Robin DeAngelo
- RUclips Video - Afro Germany - being black and German | DW Documentary
- Check out these amazing RUclipsrs who regularly address issues of race!
- Gloria Atanmo & Joulzey
- Are you considering donating to support communities of color in their fight for racial equality? Here are some charities - www.vox.com/fu...
First sentence of the german basic law: "Human dignity shall be inviolable."
This also applies to the prison system.
true indeed, as it should be
even in prison u are still a human being
@@gilde915 As an example: German prisoners have the right to vote as every other citizen.
@@Ophomox Naturally they have. I was really shocked to learn that not only people in the US not just don't have the right to vote from prison but aren't even allowed back on the voter registry once they leave prison. What kind of f... up system is that?
@@swanpride and by mass incarceration this is also a form of voter supression. Not a Vote for the other party. Why w'd you let Ex-criminals vote? So the US strip you of your civil rights-after you served your sentence. Very bad.
Zu erst...Ich schreibe auf Deutsch, weil mein Englisch sehr schlecht ist.
Ich finde das du dieses wichtige Thema sehr gut rüber gebracht hast. Dafür ein Danke.
Ich als Deutscher fange immerwieder schnell an zu schimpfen, weil mich viele sachen an Deutschland stören. Durch deine Sicht (und durch die sicht, von anderen zugezogenen Influencer), werde ich immerwieder in die Realität zurückgeholt. Ich schreie gern mal: "...wegsperren und nie wieder rauslassen!"...oder..."...auf den elektischen Stuhl!". Ich sehe aber nach solchen Themen immer schnell ein, das dies keine Lösung ist.
Durch Statistiken, Lehren aus der Vergangenheit und durch kluge Köpfe, sollten wir es besser wissen. ...und vorallem besser machen!
Deswegen glaube ich, das Deutschland einiges richtig macht....nicht Perfekt, aber doch recht gut.
Auch hier in Deutschland sollte Rassismus immer wieder zur Sprache kommen. Nicht die Hautfarbe entscheidet, was das für ein Mensch ist und was mal aus ihm/ihr wird.
Das ist leider zu wenigen Menschen auf der ganzen Welt bewusst (...leider auch in Detschland).
Schönes Video!!!! Danke!!!!
Ja, Deutschland ist wirklich in vielen Dingen objektiv besser beisammen als die USA, mit erstaunlich großem Abstand. In vielen politischen Bereichen hat es den interessanten Grund, das Deutschland vor recht kurzer Zeit das Grundgesetz neu geschrieben hat, und dabei explizit aus den Fehlern in der US-Verfassung lernen konnte.
Another different philosphie is, that in Germany punishment is to be locked up, to loose your fredom. Punishment is not the way you are treatet in prisons. Therefore comes the principle of normalization as you mentioned.
Informative video for a student of "comparative politics".
Thank you 😊
One of the worst things that shocked me about the US "justice" system was that *slavery* is legal when the enslaved is a prisoner of the justice system.
Whole industries and civil services rely on that disgusting concept. 🤬
outside of prison, you have to work to live. give me one good reason why inmates shouldn´t as well have to to work to live!
@@peterkoller3761 so you are going to pay them normal life salaries?
Last time I checked slavery isn't the same as a regular job, now is it?
@@samfetter2968 normal salaries minus accomodation, food, clothing and the costs of imprisonment (the guards etc).
@@peterkoller3761 yea...and now tell us how 1,50$ per hour would cover that...😏
@@peterkoller3761 the funny thing is...every civilized country doesn't do slavery.
And for some reason their recidivism rates are through the roof better than in the US.
How come do you think?
When They See Us also does a great job of showing how ridiculously overpriced everything (from toiletries to phone calls) is in prison and how few options you have to move forward (staying within the confines of options that are legal) afterward. So even if you're innocent (like they were) your life is totally messed up even once you get out.
Wenn es mehr Menschen wie Dich geben würde, wäre die Welt eine Bessere...
What an intelligent lady, it's fun to hear and watch her. Keep on that important work. But I fear that the americans are not interested to be compared.
The Jury system really puzzles me. Judging over your peers is difficult, it shouldn't be left to a bunch of random people.
Well, in Germany we have someting called "Schöffen", they are normal people "peers" like in the US. In the lower courts there are normaly 2 Schöffen/Jury and one judge and they all vote equal on the sentence. Its not that unusual to have an intersection between the court system and the puplic
@@nadal1275 Sure, but those Schöffen aren't randomly chosen. It's an Ehrenamt. And their role is not to make the decision, they have a discussion of the judge and offer their perspective.
@@swanpride Yes, you are right, there are differences between our and their legal systems, but the jury/Schöffen systems are at least comparable. But you are wrong about the way Schöffen and judges should come to a judgement. Everyone has (theoretically) one vote and the two lay judges can overrule the normal one. Of course, in the real world, the Schöffen follow the lead of the professional judge, but still...
Well actually I have been a Schöffe for 8 years now and I can tell you that there are instances where the judge and the Schöffen don't agree and I had one instance where the judge was overruled by the Schöffen. Because each one has 1 vote, that just counts the same as the judges vote. Does it happen often, no. But it can and does happen.
@@hopsing That's interesting. I admit, I didn't know that the Schöffen could overrule the judge completly. Out of curiousity: Does it usually happen in the direction of a higher or a milder punishment?
In any case, though, I still consider that system more stable than the jury system, where random people, a lot of which don't even want to be there, are called in to make a judgement, usually with no experience whatsoevr. Schöffen do it for a long time and during their discussions the judge is present and can remind them of the rule of law.
Hi, I like to learn more about the jury system, its history and how Americans think about it nowadays.
Could you recommend a book or website.
Thanks for video and being so aware of many issues. If it's up to me videos can be even longer.
Sehr interessantes und gutes Video!
Hi,
Do you have a source for your claim that there are not more actual crimes in the US compared to Germany?
I think that is not true. But there is perhaps an interesting mechanic at work:
Violence creates violence. When the police is more violent then it leads to more crime which leads to more aggressive police which leads to... Etc.
Also, due to the lack of social welfare and healthcare the US has a very different poverty problem. Forcing people into illegal activities more often.
This is definitely something worth looking into and digging deeper.
Maybe a small addition, especially for such important topics: if you quote books, either do it scientifically (year if publishing and pages used) or accessible (link to the sections if they are available online on Google for example). For webcontent you should always post the link. It just makes following your trail and research a lot easier if people want to dig deeper (and I think many would like that, you are in Germany and Germans love knowledge to an almost religious degree). You can take a small hint from Rezo for example. Whenever he makes a claim he posts the citation in the video. Yes, it's a ton of work, but I do feel that the severity of this topic warrants a more precise argumentation. Because what you are saying is not wrong, but it sometimes comes across as something you feel rather than something you know. Building up arguments of a more scientific foundation would give your videos a stronger stance.
Besides: posting links is also good for your SEO ;).
Don't be lazy :) I've asked Google "germany incarceration rate". Google quote and first link: "The U.S. incarceration rate is 693 per 100,000 residents -compared to 76 per 100,000 in Germany, and 69 per 100,000 in the Netherlands. The average U.S. prison sentence is three years. In the Netherlands and Germany, 91 percent and 75 percent of prison sentences, respectively, are one year or less." Lots of sources.
@@pandalu7569 we all know the facts that paint a very clear picture, but I think she is referring to "actual" crimes. So excluding all those that are innocent. I highly doubt that this can be easily proven. However, the false accusation rate is something that would be really interesting to look into. So I would like a source for that.
@@therealmercury You really talk about false accusations or about the overcharge? Did she really compared false accusations and I've missed it? What's the time stamp of that topic?
@@therealmercury in that case you should look up crime statistics for germany 2019 and for the us 2019, compare both statistics with adjusted population and you will see, that the crime rate in the us is higher, but also the rate of succesful crime investigations is higher in europe than in the us.
more crime, less solved cases with higher incarcerationrates
As a matter of fact, it is the established opinion of the German supreme court of law that 'punishment' or 'retribution' is NOT part of the sentencing at all. Imprisonment should be, optimally, a way to separate dangerous individuals until they're fit to reintegrate -- and help them achieve this.
Vice versa, I can't tell you how suspect capitalising prison systems seems to me. Prisons in the US are -- objectively -- horrible. Treat people like animals and that's what they'll become.
Hi Taylor, new sub. Is there a way I can contact you about something? It goes towards the end of your video... something that came about from an incident... a crazy hurtful incident. I don’t want to share it here publicly... curious if there was a way I could get ahold of you and have a 20-30min conversation (well in total it’ll probably take up 20-30mins via email, messages, however)
Great video about that topic. There is a great video with the title "Germany: Low Crime, Clean Prisons, Lessons for America | Jeff Rosen | TEDxMountainViewHighSchool" on yt which goes a bit more indepth focused on the prisons itself.
This video should be seen by anybody who is interested in the topic. As long as there are people like Risen, hope is not lost for the USA.
the difference is actually easy to explain, the point of view differs considerably (which you also said). why this is so is easy to explain, germany was the starting point of two world wars. after the first, the punishments of the winners were so hard and impossible for germany to implement. so hitler was able to convince the people of another war, because many Germans were hungry .. and no matter how hard they tried, they had no chance to change this situation. after the second world war the winners looked for another way. Instead of starving Germany again, they helped the population to form a democratic state and the sanctions were also more acceptable. the result was germany was able to develop again through hard work and tried to make amends wherever they could. This is reflected in our legal system today - it is better to give people a chance and to help them to ensure that after their punishment they no longer relapse than blindly drop. because who is dropped has little choice not to get in crime again. ok there are also relapses in Germany because there is a problem, people are returning to their old surroundings (same friends .. the same family etc ..- there is often the problem that in extreme cases they will relapse again). sry for my bad english. I actually understand everything very well but write and speak myself .. well there is a difference ..;) but I hope that I could explain it well enough
I think the reasons for relapses you describe are something like the "natural reasons", or inherent reasons - and the US system is very effective in creating more of them. The German system systematically tries not to do that.
(your English is fine)
Wow you have integrity it seems
In Germany, if a woman is married to a man and one is in prison, an application for sex with them can be made.
It depends on how dangerous the prisoner is and how he behaves in prison. Certainly having sex is the greatest freedom that can be granted. Maybe he can get an early release if a judge agrees.
Usually the prisoner in Germany does not lose the right to vote.
But there are also prisoners who have to be locked away for an indefinite period of time.
US prisons are businesses, so it makes sense to keep them full to maximum capacity to maximize profits.
Look at ruclips.net/video/wtV5ev6813I/видео.html for further comparison.
I think to the same extent the US prison system is falling short in terms of reintegration attempts, our prison system is overdoing it:
we should make it clear to every inmate that it is more in *their* interest and their obligation (Bringschuld) to stay out of prison than it is an act of mercy granted by them towards society if they do so. And we should back this up by a three-strikes-out policy, because three chances for a criminal is by far enough risk for society. it is completely useless to give someone one "chance" after the other just for them to see it as yet another opportunity to reoffend. I mean, we cannot have criminal time bombs of whom everybody knows perfectly well they are going to reoffend with (almost) 100% probability let lose on society again and again because they "deserve also a 12th, 25th or 37th chance"! - no, they don´t! if they can´t live within society without reoffending, they have to be stopped from reoffending by being locked away from society until they pose no more danger = until they die.
German prisons provide the prisoners with long and sharp knifes... for cooking their own meals. Still, the prison violence is much lower than in the US.
Taylor, what is not vonsidered is that incarceration will felony convicts in the USA it's a thriving business Oreck select amount of Corporations! Here in the south, being a deputy jailer is wonderful employment, unfortunately! The other thing a felony conviction does is remove you from the eligible voter records. Furthermore, your civil rights hot not restored upon completion of the sentence. Hence, office holders have the privilege of choosing who will vote and / or for you or your opponent!
Many American citizens go to jail for misdemeanors, which in Germany is just an administrative offense. presumably has something to do with the occupancy figures in private prisons? I then read that American private prisons sued the state because the prisons were not full?
Schweiz: www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/de/home/statistiken/kriminalitaet-strafrecht/rueckfall.html
Deutschland: de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCckfall_(Strafrecht)
Is it possible to get in contact?
The wide use of drugs in the US is caused mostly by the pharma industry and MD who prescribe far to many opiots instead of pain killer that are not making dependent (imho).
which in return is a consequence of the lack of a social system that allows for paid sick leave; people are forced to work under all circumstances, even if they are in severe pain.
@@peterkoller3761 Interesting point.
Germany has come a long way in treatment of prisoners, from being know as the first who "industrialized" incarceration and killing of innocent people without trail as part of their racism or antisemitism to the way everyone is treated today with dignity and respect.
Here's an interesting TED talk about the difference in German vs US prison / justice system ruclips.net/video/wtV5ev6813I/видео.html
by fmr. DA Jeff Rosen
Dear Taylor, THIS is really good Video - But a little too short, to show all the differences. However, the approaches are very great. On a scale of 1-10, my opinion is, IF you present this to a US audience: 8.75 ... For a German audience, if your prior knowledge of THIS topic is taken into account, min. 8.25 - Definitely good to better than good. Like to watch your videos; Keep it up [Racism is hit! No matter who it comes from!] Keep Save, Stay clear.
Thanks for mentioning overcharging. Aaron Swartz, one of the greatest geniuses of our times, died because the prosecutor wanted to become famous and therefore exaggerated the charges.
Always a pleasure to see and hear what you are saying. You are an impressive person.
One problem with the statistics on the reoffence rate may be that sentencing in Germany is a matter for the Länder. I have found this study (thanks to Wikipedia):
www.bmjv.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Service/StudienUntersuchungenFachbuecher/Legalbewaehrung_nach_strafrechtlichen_Sanktionen_2010_2013.pdf;jsessionid=7E9F8FA95C66D529F5BC1516657E15A1.1_cid334?__blob=publicationFile&v=1
According to the study, the reoffence rate in Germany is about 45%. Whereby the time frame differs from the one you found for the USA. From newspaper articles I have found about 25% for the question of a relapse within one year.
So, lets say a bit more than half of what you see in the US. Better but still not good.
Hi Taylor, this topic was very interesting. It´s a kind of philosophical discussion about different crminal law systems. Some socialist states handle crimes like a personal illness, wich has to be cured. As a result the inmates can only get out of jail, when is proofed that the cure was successful. This can be very cruel. Other countries, like US are still following mainly the religious approach (eye for an eye, life for a life) which is mainly based on revanche. Criminals do not only loose their freedom, but have to face hard times up to solitary confinements and other inhuman treatments in prison. The european (and german) approch is very different. The verdict of the court containes only a certain period of time of loss of freedom. Period! It´s not the task of prisons and correctional officers to punish (that can only be done by courts). Prisons execute simply the loss of freedom. But they´re part of states authority and so they have to respect and to defend the human dignity of the inmates (Article 1 German Constitution). So they also have to support the inmates in a way, that they´re enabled to live a life as a responsible person without comitting crimes after incarceration (resocialisation or often even first socialisation). There is a very interesting speech of the US District Attorney Jeff Rosen on YT, who visited a german prison and compares. He offers a lot of statistics (crime rates US, Canada and Germany). Very impressive. Btw, statistics shows, that a criminal in Prison loses every connection to the comitted crime latest after seven years in Prison. Latest after that period, the incarceration makes no sence anymore, except revanche.
Thank you for your very intersting video!
Dettmar
Jeff Rosen for example in:
ruclips.net/video/wtV5ev6813I/видео.html
Let's be quite formal: forced labour is prohibited in Germany.
And then, very practically: if someone has to work for his incarceration and doesn't do it, what then?
Do you let him go because he doesn't pay his "hotel costs"?
No, then the only thing you can do is to imprison him longer and longer, or to maltreat and break him.
Why should a person "work for his incarceration" - it's not his choice to be incarcerated. (recovering costs makes sense, of course.)
You became already very German. So many "Leitzordner" in your rack :-) (German folders/binders)
You're absoultely right - almost erverybody grown up in a privileged environment is racist. I don't think one can blame us for that. This is a simple consequence of our neighborhood. But it also means we have to be aware of this and always take time for a second thought with the eyes of our counterparts.
sorry, but this is almost as stupid as claiming that everybody grown up in an underprivileged environment is a criminal. ("can´t blame them for that", can you? "this is a simple consequence of their neighborhood", isn´t it?)
@@peterkoller3761 ??? Really? Is it the same? Saying that is just telling that you didn't understand what I said. Otherwise you'd compare it to the statement "Everybody grown up in a underprivileged environment is a potential criminal. Being aware of this and making decisions how to act makes the difference. Racism is not an action it is a potential which leads to actions.
@@Dr_Klops no, you didn´t write "potential racist", you wrote "racist". therefore, not "potential criminal" but "criminal" is the equivalent plain and simple!
@@peterkoller3761 You don't get it. Although it's plain and simple racist is a mindset wehreas criminal affords taking action.
I think it is very disturbing to have a jury of completely uneducated (in terms of law) commoners decide the result of a court case, instead of professionals who actually know the law.
How did the founders of the US law decide that this was a logical choice?
Obviously lawyers should be independent of the government, so there is virtually no chance of government influence on a public case. But a jury of so-called peers that is selected arbitrarily which could massively influence the outcome of a case sounds completely useless.
Ownership of illegal drugs in Germany obviously is still illegal, but the amount certainly plays a significant role on the fine and/or sentence.
Prisons in Germany *tend* to be more humane and focussed on rehabilitation and re-integration.
Prisons in the USA are effectively a forced labor camp under another name, focussed on keeping a cheap labor force in forced labor perpetually, while calling it punishment.
The jury system is a continuation of what they knew at the time, the US being a former British colony kept most of the Common Law system in use at the time. Most of mainland Europe is using what is usually clasfied as a "civil law" legal system which is more derived from Roman law traditions (with a large dose of Napoleonic and Germanic things thrown in). For certain types of crimes in the UK there's still a right to a jury trial for the one on trial.
But if you look at a world map of what system is being used you'll see a strong influence of the primary colonising nation with regards to the legal system being used. Wikipedia has a nice map with colours here: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Map_of_the_Legal_systems_of_the_world_%28en%29.png
Interesting areas that are noteworthy and stand out to me right now.
Quebec: Former french colony, later absorbed into a British one is that how they ended up with a mixed civil law/common law system?
South Africa: A lot of British and Dutch messing around there.
Northern area of Africa and spreading a bit beyond Israel to the east into asia: A lot of muslim law, but also take note of the frequency of N there (former French colonial influence I guess?)
Louisiana in the US: Also a mixed system according to the map, which surprised me but shouldn't really. It started out as being part of the French empire in the old days.
i get your points .. but... yeah there is a but coming... addiction maybe a disease .. but noone shoved the drugs down their throat to start the process..... that was their choice... to the addiction afterwards is an unfortunate side effect.. one they knew beforehand... to all the other stuff you talked about .. yeah..... right ^^
check this comparison:
ruclips.net/video/wtV5ev6813I/видео.html
I work as a nurse in a German prison. Especially in one for those who commit very serious crimes as murder. The purpose of a German prison is not for punishment. You have the same rights as every German except for the freedom to go wherever you like and have contact to the outside world. This is quite restricted. The main point in prison is bringing people back to a good path. First is it very rare that people go to prison for crimes with penance less than 3 years. Those crime usually get probation. Second:we don't have death penalty an a lifelong punishment can literally mean lifelong except you are doing quite well in your rehabilitation process, then you may leave after 21 years.
Third :rehab. It's the main base. You can learn new jobs in prison work on new Qualifications get school degrees and enter several therapy programs. It is based on the thinking that everyone should get a second chance in life. Indeed because it is important to get people back to work because this system is very expensive because much staff is needed. In my prison we have capacity for nearly 800 inmates an the staff is about 560 people working inside and for the prison itself. None of us is allowed to wear guns or any kind of weapons and everyone is treated with respect under the perspective that violence causes more violence and you won't harm people you respect. The system works well in Germany and near perfect in Norway. They made the whole idea even more better and their relapse rate is even lower than the German one. There are indeed some private prisons in Germany but the number is quite little and the rules and restrictions are the same as in every state prison.
Taylor, can you dicuss
Floyed issue in America and its relation to Racism and discrimination.
Thanx
She has discussed policing and racism in previous videos.
There is a really good video on Tedx Talks confirming what you described:
ruclips.net/video/wtV5ev6813I/видео.html
First of all, you can still love your grandparents, and part from their ideas of the N-word. You're good, important video. - Lookup "Jim Knopf", a book from 1960 in Wikipedia or clips of the animated Augsburger Puppenkiste show. Also regards to chinese references.
- Very bad, that after you have been released of US prison, you cannot Vote again, ever!
Voting rights can bei re-instated but you will have to pay for it.
@@jan-peterbrodersen3302 Wow, that took a strange turn... Ok, a good solution to make sure that poor people are very demotivated from voting.
@@jan-peterbrodersen3302 Really? You have to pay to get a basic human right back?
@@maxiona714 More or less, If you want your voting rights back, yes.
@@jan-peterbrodersen3302 That's truly a backstab for everyone who thought the USA were the land of freedom.
3:10 "harsh punishments to black men comparison to white men" What a load of bs .Think for yourself and not thirst for popularity
Wait are you Asian,?..i didn't know Asians were considered white,!
Taylor for President!
Make your intros shorter and reduce video lenght
I somehow like your mouth movements while you talk 🤔
There are enough cases in Germany where rapists don't even get 3 years of prison! The whole criminal justice system in Germany is too soft. This is a consequence of the far left intellectual ideology here in Germany. I lived in bremen for 25 years. One of the most liberal cities. Only Berlin is worse. It's terrible and I say that as a German. We need more severe laws.
Could you please provide some references for those statements? Googling does show rather the opposite, and the minimum incarnation time for rape is clearly defined in German laws (depending on the exact level of severity: 2/3/5 years minimum, but 7-10 years are also often fined, including at the courts of Bremen). Sexual compulsion is also routinely fined in those dimensions by Bremen, so I’d really like to see some sources proving the opposite.
Some googling only brought a specific case in where a 17 year old girl was raped by multiple men for hours in very extreme ways, but filled charges more than a week later - so hardly any evidence was obtainable by doctors. Early during her testimony in court, she broke down and was later diagnosed to be heavily re-traumatised, unable to testify in court again. The judge stated he had no doubt in what happened, but due to the fact of having no testimony nor any evidences and all accused men have been silent for weeks, the only option was to dismiss the case and rule in favour of the accused ones. This case caused some serious outrage in media, though the decision is simply “in dubio pro reo”.
It is revealing that in terms of liberal jurisprudence you speak of "even worse". Jurisprudence does not aim primarily or secondarily at revenge, so that maximally severe punishments characterize a good legal system.
Of course, one must always struggle to find the right balance between the various objectives of justice. But important indicators for a functioning legal system are probably crime rate, rate of prisoners, recidivism rate and also the population's feeling of security. Only in the last point are there some irritations in Germany, but this probably has more to do with the media presence of serious crimes. Because the increasing feeling of insecurity in some areas can be found where the number of cases is constantly falling.
Severe laws are not preventing crimes.
@@maraboo72 Exactly! Otherwise the medieval times with its insanely cruel tortures and punishment would never ever have seen a single criminal case.
Severe laws and punishment do not prevent crimes, they only make the punishment more cruel.
@Oliver Sassendorf You should go to where the political system serves you better and live there. Judging by the avatar you are using this would be the deep South in the USA, or even better: Brazil. I don't know of any restrictions that would keep you here against you will.
Plus: Define " *too soft* " for me, please.
Plus: Define " *more severe laws* " for me, too. Thank you.
4 min of bla bla talking never sets a point boring