Competition with an SAA: The Colt Bisley and Bisley Target
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
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Named for the famous British shooting competition range, the Colt Bisley was the target version of the 1873 Single Action Army revolver. Colt first offered a flat-top model of the SAA from 1890 until 1895, and dropped it to introduce a specialized Bisley model in 1894. The Bisley had a redesigned trigger, hammer, and grip frame. The regular SAA grip was designed to let the gun roll in the hand under recoil, to bring the hammer under the thumb for recocking. This was not ideal for target shooting, where one would prefer to maintain the exact same grip throughout a course of fire. The Bisley grip design eliminated the rolling of the gun, and the hammer was widened and lowered to allow easy recocking from that firing grip.
In addition to the basic Bisley model, a Bisley Target model was also offered, with a windage adjustable rear sight and an elevation adjustable front blade (the regular Bisley had the same fixed sights as the standard SAA). In total, 44,350 Bisley were sold, and 976 Bisley Targets. They could be ordered in any barrel length, but mostly were made with 7.5 inch barrels to get the longest sight radius for competition shooting. Almost any caliber could be ordered, and the Bisleys tended to skew more toward light cartridges than the standard SAA, with the most common being .32-20, aka .32 WCF. Production ended in 1912, and the last Bisley was shipped from Colt’s inventory in 1919.
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Back in 1974, following a trial in my home town, where I was working as a police officer, I was given the task of hauling the convict down to the County Seat, some 48 miles South West of our town. After delivering the miscreant, the Deputy Sheriff, a rather old fellow in his mid 60's (funny how that no longer seems old now that I am in my late 60's) asked me over to his trailer house for coffee. Over a cup of some very strong coffee, he pulled out a wooden display box and opened the lid, there in all of it's glory lay a Colt Bisley. There was an envelope containing documentation of the history of the wonderful old firearm, it seems his grand father was the Sheriff in Montana back in the 1870's, and as part of his duties, he had to hang a murderer, who had killed his Deputy. The murder had used that very same Colt in the murder, and the Sheriff kept it, passing it down to his son, who passed it down to that very same Deputy. The pistol was in Caliber 25-20, according to the Deputy, the killer had a gunsmith modify the pistol for that Caliber. It also came with the original barrel and cylinder, I believe he said it was in .45 Colt, he did show them to me, however back then I was just getting into guns, but that fantastic revolver really stuck in my mind, and I had always wanted a revolver in that caliber, however never did get a chance to have one built up. The last time I saw that old Deputy, he had long since retired, and I ran into him at an auction sale. I had to ask about the beautiful revolver, he said he still had it, and would never part with it till the day he died, which, saddly happened about a month later from a massive heart attack. I often wonder where that pistol is today.
Jerry, that's an incredible story. Thanks for sharing.
Jim Vandemoter Yes indeed. Sure hope whoever it passed to kept all the bits together and passed the extra details of the man who owned it along with that unique history.
Plot twist: That's the revolver in the video.
i hope his kids appreciated that piece of history as much as he did... too many fantastic pieces of history (firearms and otherwise) end up getting pawned off for a quick buck to settle transient debts
That's a touching story. Thank you.
12 shots. More than enough to kill anything that moves.
I realize that this is an old and run out joke, but I like Colt SAAs', Revolver Ocelot, and MGS series.
"This reload time is exhilarating!"
*Mreeeow..!*
Laughs in crack head
"This the greatest handgun ever made. The colt single action army! Six bullets, more than enough to kill anything that moves." Revolver Ocelot, circa 2005
That game is from 1998. Unless your talking about a re-release.
You know...like a poser.
@@tinyj4520 I'm talking about chronology. The events of shadow moses takes place in 2005 in the MGS chronology, duh. By the way, twin snakes came out 2004
@@tinyj4520 schooled.
That Bisley has some incredible finish. I love that case hardened / blued look.
My dad picked up one of these at a flea market back in ‘01, the one he bought was a standard Bisley, and it was in 32-20. He got it with the holster that the original owner got for it, and interestingly, it had 3 notches on the bottom of the grip (we theorized it may have been used in self-defense). Luckily I had a chance to shoot it, and it was a very pleasant pistol to shoot, and I didn’t have to adjust my grip any. The example we had was manufactured in 1903.
I grew up in the village close by to Bisley Shooting Range in the UK. Every weekend you could hear the shooting in the distance on the ranges. :)
That Bisley Target model.. Beautiful, BEAUTIFUL lines, LOVLEY!!!!
Hey Ian, I just wanted to say that i have watched pretty much all off your videos by now, And you still keep me coming back. Greetings from Norway.
Thanks Ian,
I appreciate everything you do with Forgotten Weapons, In Range, C & R, The Great War, etc.....all of the various RUclips channels you're affiliated with in any way.
Thank you for all of your time consuming and hard work.
Thanks!
I have noticed a common modification on a lot of fixed sight colts from the early 20th century was to have a gunsmith mill out the sight channel and fit a smith and Wesson adjustable rear sight. A public example of this is Audie Murphys colt Bisley which has a smith and Wesson adjustable sight.
I won a couple of shooting medals at Bisley in the late '80s. Thanks for reminding me.
Being an English man have to give you Americans credit were credit is due. The Colt single action army type revolvers to me are the best and epitome of a classic revolver of the period.
Old Colt was the best in the world when it came to revolvers, nobody could produce a gun that "felt" like a colt, the SAA has it's legendary status for a reason.
Perhaps the SAA is the best of what a single action revolver can be, and it's very true when you compare it to it's contemporaries, the Riechrevolver came out around the same time and is worse in every conceivable aspect, and the single action versions of the Nagant revolver are hilariously bad
the Schofield could break open and reload quick, but the action on that is nowhere as good.
Webley's are pretty top notch, but they are "next gen" compared to the SAA.
@@tinyj4520 plus Webleys are some ugly revolvers
(to most anyway, I rather like them how they look)
I was an ardent auto-loader fan, received a Ruger .357 Redhawk in a trade, moved it along within the week, didn't care for that *old technorogy* - but that was back in the '80s when I got my first center fire firearm and I was all about ARs & AKs, my Browning Hi-Power and such.
- About a year ago my old College buddy got a .45LC "Cattleman" and something inside me made me get one too; an Evil Roy .45LC 5.5", then a "Cattleman" in .357 *18" barrel* (lol), and 2 more in 12rd .22, 5.5" & 7.5", a Pietta "Californian" 5.5" with both the .45LC and .45ACP cylinders, a Pietta El Malo .357 Magnum in octagonal 7.5" with low, wide hammer & checkered grips, 2 .45LC SASS 5.5" with LW Hammer & checkered grips, a Ruger Single-10 .22LR in Stainless because I want one I don't have to clean everyday, and I'm probably going for one more Cattleman .357 in 7.5".
Now I obviously love them, too bad it took me so long or I might've been able to pick up some real Colt SAAs for a much more friendly price back in the '80s.
*Damn him! = ;^D >*
Pancho Villa loved going into El Paso and having strawberry shake/malt. There are pictures of him and his boys enjoying thier ice cream. He was governor of Chihuahua 1913-1914.
I've got a Colt Bisley in .38 special manufactured around 1911, my favorite!
My holster got shredded just looking at the front sight of the target model :/
Yep, it would quickly tear up leather. It was most likely carried in a custom case, being a target pistol.
Well then your holster ain't WORTHY of a Bisley!
Competition holsters have brass guides to allow the front sight to slide smoothly.
And half the gun sticking out with such a long barrel
I still would like to carry one XD
There are some really cool single actions in this auction. Cool engraving and some really nice gold.
I remember looking at a Colt Bisley in 1977 and the asking price at a gun shop was $120.00 but I passed on it because it 32. cal and I was looking really for a S.A.A. in .45. Also it was in beautiful condition too.
Adjusted for inflation, that'd be about $650. About the price of a modern Pietta or Uberti reproduction
"if you don't have to, like, potentially drop a horse" is my new favorite phrase
That gun lookin funky with that hard curve in it's handle
Been looking to purchase a 1873 uberti cattleman in. 357 w/ 7.5 barrel, but now I am thinking a bisley in .357 w/ 7.5 , you answered my question on the handling characteristics without actually handling one thanks and great video 👍
The standard SAA is already a tack driver I can just imagine what these are capable of.
I find it interesting that though the Bisley was meant for target shooting, it just seems to be an improved version of the SAA. Like in that time, I would want to carry it since I don't have to change my grip as much and parts are generally made easier to use. I can definitely see why Pancho Via carried it. I also feel that one reason why the standard Bisley was more popular is partly because there may have been people who wanted a Bisley for defense/combat situations so they didn't need the exact accuracy. Just good enough.
Great video Ian, love the bisleys an honestly didn't even realize you didn't have a video on one.
Colt Bisley
Walt Disney
Illuminati confirmed!
Ma favorite disney princess
Coincidence? I think NOT.
Thank you for sharing! Merry Christmas
Those guns are BEAUTIFUL!
A punch or file to widen the rear notch is interesting. A lot of these fixed sight guns have bent front sights to adjust them. My grandfather and most of his ilk used that used that method for adjustments.
My assumption is the plow handle of the Army model is a holdover from the percussion belt models (Namely, the 1851 Navy and Colt's New Models of the 1860s). Being able to roll the gun upwards when cocking the hammer was a benefit for those older guns, as this prevented the fired percussion cap from dropping into the action.
Thats pretty cool! My great grandfather who I actually knew, fought with the forces of Pancho Villa...nice!
My grandfather RAN from Pancho Villa. 1914 cross the border into El Paso, never went back. By 1920, the Family was living in L. A. Ca.
@@josecanisales3491 what a coward my family ran the show with Pancho Villa in Mexico 🤣
I love shooting duelist in CAS. Heard these come in handy
I did not know that Pancho Villa(Doroteo Arango it was his real name) preferred the Colt Bisley Model instead of the Colt Single Action Army; okay I have something new that I being learn here in your channel Thanks.
those are some nice looking revolvers
jonnoMoto a SAA Is actually very comfortable. Doesn’t look like it would be though
You're pretty good.
Pretty... Good..?
Mind your tongue peasant!?... Ian is THE gun Jesus
Those engravings give you no tactical advantage.
I just love the single action army platform. I have a Colt Peacemaker that my dad passed down to me on his deathbed, it’s my favorite firearm.
something i have always wanted to see would be one of the colt buntline specials (the 16" version) when i was younger i had this RTS game called desperados: wanted dead or alive and the character Doc McCoy used one (either as just the pistol or you could have him attack a stock and sight to it and use it as a long range almost sniper rifle) and its still pretty much the only time i have ever really seen one referenced
Whennthe movie "Tombstone" came out, the popularity spiked for a minute. Growing up in the 90s, I remember my dad having the Wyatt Earp model. He traded it for a regular .44magnum though.
Beautiful pistols. Good vid Ian!
Thank you. You do this so very right. I am going to purchase a Cimmeron Bisley in 44-40 to go with my 1896 manufacture date Winchester 1892 in 44-40. I just can not afford a Colt.
When I got into Cowboy Action Shooting everyone was telling me to get .357 pistols so I could shoot lightweight .38. All it took was one look at the cylinder holes and I knew .45 Colt was for me.
If I did Cowboy Action stuff (which I'd actually love to do someday... when I have the money to afford all the guns I want), I'd personally be using a Smith & Wesson №3 - Third Pattern Russian in .44 S&W Russian. Nothing against .45 Long Colt, but I like S&W's top breaks better than the Colt's of that era.
But I can see why you'd like .45 Long Colt cartridge. I don't understand why someone in Cowboy Action Shooting would EVER want to shoot something as puny as .357 Magnum or .38 Special, when .44 and .45 caliber cartridges are so much more fun. Packing more punch always makes shooting more entertaining!
@@EuropeYear1917 Having actually shot CAS with a pair of Cimarron Thunderers in .357 Magnum, there are a few good reasons NOT to shoot .45LC. First is cost -- CAS uses a lot of ammo, and .38 Special is cheaper. Even if you're reloading, .45LC brass is more expensive and you're using more lead if you're casting your own bullets, etc. Second, CAS is a timed competition, so getting back on target quickly is imperative -- that's a LOT easier with .38s. It's also less punishing on your hands, which matters when you're shooting 5 or 6 or maybe more stages with 10 pistol shots each stage (plus another 10 rifle shots, plus shotgun). Of course, there are always those guys that take it too far in the light load direction, which is borderline cheating. When my Dad loaded for me, he made sure they were reasonable loads, not extra light subsonic target loads. But you do you -- I don't find punishing my hands and wrists to be fun, but that's just me...
And yes, I realize this is a 2 year old comment. That's OK, it's been at least 5 years since I shot a CAS match. Time flies when life gets in the way...
I recall that I saw a Colt Bisley in a mini series called “the Rough Riders” where one of the characters was armed with a Nickel finished Bisley with a 7.5” barrel
Nothing to do with the video, though top quality as always. Just wanted to let you know that I was able to fix my watch band, by cutting a safety pin to length,and bending slightly. I forgot the actual name,but just wanted to say THANK YOU. Amazing how information can help.
Pancho Villa's chosen sidearm
Can you do a video on the early ruger pistols? Some are very neat and trend setting
I wonder if any military officers ever chose to carry a bisley rather than a standard colt or webley, I mean a lot of military pistol shooting especially in the British military was very much taught like competition shooting until ww2 so would make sense that some officers might carry a bisley to get the accuracy edge even if at the expense of other aspects
Ian and Pancho Villa have something in common? Who woulda thunk?
Beautiful, beautiful revolvers.
I really would love to see curves and styling like that on a modern double action revolver. (I sort of see that with Ruger's revolvers.)
Ruger vaquero?
You know your taste is good when you share it with Pancho Villa.
Had to look up what nomenclature meant since you use it quite a bit. Still don't have a clue. Keep up the great work cheers
I wonder how many Bisley revolvers were destroyed in 1997.
What happened in 1997 that would warrant destroying revolvers?
@@kaibowman4803 UK Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997.
This channel never disappoints
Amazingly, the .45 Colt round is still in use today, albeit with some modern changes so the round will eject reliably from lever action rifles. It's now at 146 years old and still going strong. It's one of the few patented rounds that survived until the expiation of the patent and became a widely used round in its own right. I have an Astra .45 Colt revolver that, at first glance, appears to be a copy of the S&W N frame guns, including the "Dirty Harry" .44 magnum. The internals are completely different, and the fit and finish certainly rivals the best N frame revolvers produced by S&W. Comparing target work with an S&W Model 10 I own that's in like new condition, the Astra will consistently shoot better groups at 50 yards. The.45 Colt is still a hard hitting round, and it's a great combination with the Astra 6" barrel revolver. These guns show up fairly regularly and sell for $250 to $450. If you're in the market for a modern .45 Colt revolver, you won't go wrong with an Astra.
Fun fact, 45 Colt is the most powerful service handgun cartridge ever fielded by any military, as Ian stated, downing a horse with one is not out of the question.
When attacked by cavalry target the horses first. Then they are just infantry with crappy boots.
@@deepbludreams The initial early .45 Colt loading was was powerful cartridge at least for the US military then it was reduced to .45 ACP levels. The Danish Sled Patrol has the most powerful issued cartridge: 10mm Auto.
45 colt is a awesome caliber, I killed deer,black bear and multiple coyote with it, there are some modern +p 45 colt loads that's you can shoot in solid revolvers like freedom arms, Blackhawks and such that are pushing 300 gr bullets @ 1300 fps plus, that's better than most 44 mag ballistics, so yeah definitely still going strong..the new loads such as 260 gr jhps @ 1450 fps and 225 gr all copper barns @ 1500 fps are Amazingly devistating on deer out to 60 yards the all copper barns is amazing, they exspand to damn near a inch a penetrate very deep for the light weight, and the 300 gr loads @ 1200-1300 will work on just about anything in the woods
Have I ever told you I wish I had your job
Most of us watching wish we had Ian's job...
But since we don't, we can live vicariously through his videos.
His level of knowledge of firearms is outstanding. His speaking is clear and concise. I could not do his job. Glad he does it though.
The gun that cannot be fired at the range that it is named after.
My favorite style of Colt SAA is the Remington 1875.
Lol, ya almost got me .
Being a colt fan I feel like I should be angry, but I must admit I do love the Remington.
Once again, learning something :) Thanks Ian
Have you read the Douglas C. Jones "U. S. Marshal Oscar Schiller" western novels ? Schiller is a very different character from typical westerns. He's a wiry little guy who wears a Panama hat and carries a Colt's Bisley, either in 32.20 or 38.40, I can't recall. I'm pretty sure Schiller is based on a real person. The first book is "Winding Stair"...it's one of my favorite western stories.
Would be nice if you could get your hands on a h&k mod. 502. Just found it on a german gun webside. Never seen it before. Never saw a video on it. It's an autoloading shotgun with an oval choke which can be twisted for 90 degrees so you either get a horizontal or vertical spread.
Is it true that this was Pancho Villas' preferred revolver due to it being easier to use with arthritis?
It looks like Pancho's Bisley had ivory grips not mother of pearl!
Love my standard Bisley .45. Looking for some bone, stag, or mother-of-pearl grips.
I wonder how the Bisley would be for a quick draw gun with a short barrel, a bobbed trigger guard and birds heads grips. Would that lower profile make cocking whilst unholstering faster or just clumsy?
Another great video, Pancho!
Dammit Ian, can't you see I'm Bisley right now?
The SAA "plow handle" grip is ideal for the .45 Long Colt.
Not so ideal for .44 Mag,.454 Casull or .45-70.
Anyone that fires a .45-70 pistol deserves what s/he gets.....Especially one-handed.
Strangely the grip on Model 97 or the Model 83 Freedom Arm’s (Back strap) is shaped like a Bisley and they are chambered for some very hard kicking cartridges. FWIW
Thanks for posting this.
Hey Ian! love the videos here and on inRange, just wondering if you could go through the new L85A3 as well as british service pistols when you next go to Ares in leeds. Many thanks, keep doing what youre doing!
If anyone is looking for one of these, The Firing Line shooting range and gun store in Port Richey, Florida has a pair of original Colt Bisleys, ones in .45 Colt with a 5.5 inch barrel and I can't remember the other offhand. I wish I could afford them...
Umm, if these were released in 1895, they really should have been called the Colt Wimbeldon. Bisley didn't come into use till a couple of years later.. Wimbeldon is in the middle of London, with the power of cartridges increasing, the neighbours got a bit concerned so the ranges moved to Bisley.
Ian I remember reading somewhere that the grip on the Bisley was shaped like that because back then target shooters used a bent arm, not straight arm like now. Is my memory right?
Yep.
It almost sounds like the Bisley Target in .45 Colt would've been a better overall revolver.
wonder what the best scores on record with a bisley are? were the best shooters of the time(s) able to pull off miraculous feats of accuracy, or were there inherent limitations on the design compared to modern firearms?
Pancho villa used the bisley
Is there any disadvantage to a revolver's hammer being able to be pulled down while holding it in a standard grip? That seems like a feature all revolvers should have.
New shooters would risk firing the next round before you line up the shot, wasting bullets in a gun fight (since you're keeping your finger on the trigger). The price of ammo used to be of equal concern as combat efficiency.
@@tinyj4520 which is why you're supposed to keep your booger hook off the bang switch until you're ready to fire. Even when getting shot at.
Ian is not only a Francophile but he's an Anglophile too 👍
The grip on the Bisley looks awkward; how is it to hold in comparison to the original style grip and what is your favourite in hold?
Buy the 45 and do a Pancho Villa 2gacm
Keep it up
One in each hand, & a pocket full of cowboy loads😁
I dont understand what the "Bolt Spring" on the Bisley Hammer is for?
Pretty good
the receiver for the Dallas Cowboys?
The p90 is certainly not a forgotten weapon but it would be interesting anyway because I can't find any good videos on RUclips that go deep into the mechanics.
Are those black powder or smokeless powder?
Okay, stupid question time : why are these sometimes called pistols?
I have heard this many times from firearsm experts, do you mean like a handgun in general?
Or were these revolvers actually called pistols sometimes?
Revolvers are pistols, but we like to call them revolvers to make sure they are not mistaken for automatic handguns.
'Handgun' as a generic term , as used in American parlance is a very old term in English English .It derives from 'hand gonne'. 'Pistol' derives from a French word and arrived in the 16th century. In English English 'pistol' is used generically for any hand held firearm used to describe both revolvers and self loading pistols. Oddly 'handgun' is being used more frequently in English English. It has been readopted from American English . If you wish to be specific in English English you might use' revolver' or' self-loading pistol' ( or the American form semi automatic pistol), flintlock, or percussion pistol to distinguish between separate types of hand held firearms. In short a lot is down to the different forms of English involved.
didn't see the nitro mark didn't they use the powder?
Let’s drop a horse today 💪
Have you ever made a video on the Harmonica pistol?
Was 38wcf a common in the saa
The peacekeeper of Battlefield 1
This may be a stupid question, but does elevation, and windage, make that much a difference in short range pistol shooting?
For outdoor target shooting yes.
Elevation would usually be adjusted to specific loads prior to the match.
Windage could also be an important factor depending on weather conditions and the ranges to the target. Especially when shooting for accuracy and points.
Not all guns are perfectly zeroed from the factory and point-of-impact can differ with different ammunition, which is why most guns these days come with adjustable sights even if they're not target guns.
I've seen 50+yd targets on some stages before, which is a very long shot with a pistol.
And as Guy said, different loads, even different lots of the same load, can have different points of impact.
“English shooting matches” R.I.P
@Monotech2.0 I don't think running from a member of the religion of peace who is spraying the street with an AK counts as a shooting match.
@@Hercules1-v9m fr tho, that was France, it's like saying Columbine was in Mexico or Canada.
And although UK civilian gunlaws are strict, there's still plenty of target shooting competitions these days.
Idk about the UK but for the rest of Europe, being a target shooter/member is the easiest way to getting a firearms permit.
@@Hercules1-v9m we still have IPSC matches here in Northern Ireland and host a lot of Olympic shooters here as handguns are still legal. The local variant of Gunbroker is brill.
Wow only three dislikes, that’s amazing. I am willing to bet they accidentally hit the dislike button when they were aiming for the like button too...
Maybe my eyes are just being stupid but those grips look a bit uncomfortable to me.
Praise be Gun Jesus.
I always thought the bisley model grips helped with heavy recoil with bigger calibers and it rolled in ur hand better for less recoil. U say they stay put in ur hand for a more consistent grip and originally were smaller calibers??????
I watched this video with a Bisley in my hand
Competition with A* SAA
Fixed!
No
all hail gun jesus
Why was a higher hammer beneficial?
SgtKOnyx As Ian pointed out, the grip on the standard model was designed to roll in the hand under recoil. This was a method at the time to control recoil. Once the pistol recoiled the high hammer was easy to access. Another advantage to a high hammer on single action guns is a visual reminder. It is impossible to get a sight picture with the hammer down so it reminds the shooter to cock the hammer. Remember that there was far less training of even professionals in this era.
@@thatguy3428 I don't know, it would seem that the crucial hammer cock is the first one, before any recoil has a chance to roll the pistol. As for the latter reason, I feel like a slightly longer hammer face could do the same thing.
There's more for the higher hammer that I've thought of though, and that is that the hammer would have more energy, pivoting further from the center. Obviously they went with the high hammer, so it must have been the one that made more sense at the time.
The 1873 Single Action Army shares many of its component designs from the old percussion revolvers. The grip is identical to the 1851 Colt, for example.
One notable problem with Colt percussion guns is the tendency for the fired cap to drop off as the hammer is cocked. If the gun is held horizontally when this happens, the cap falls into the action and binds it up. To mitigate a cap jam, the firer raises the gun up so the cap falls away from the action instead. It became common practice to raise the gun in order to cock it, so the grip and hammer were optimized for this practice.
Why it was still a thing for cartridge-firing Colts like the 1873 SAA? I dunno. Complacency, cost, or tradition.
👍
do you send in italy?
Ian doesn't "send" anything. He merely documents the history of firearms. That said, if you're intending to bid on that firearm, and try to get it sent to you in Italy, you'd have to talk to Rock Island Auction House (the auction house that Ian filmed this video at), and work out the logistics regarding that... because Ian ain't the one actually auctioning the gun, he's merely in the business of being a firearms historian/researcher.