Robert Feranec: Very useful video presentation. If you never confirmed your reply to Harsh Goyal, the following may be informative to future viewers: Yes, to make a 4-layer PCB, it is possible to use 2 cores with prepreg isolation between. This was very common at one time for USA military PCBs, and is still used often for very high speed PCBs, especially RF PCBs which use special PTFE (Teflon) materials such as those from Rogers Corp. The distance between the copper layers is somewhat more consistent and predictable on cores than on prepreg, because the core layers are fully cured before lamination, so the signal integrity may be improved by use of cores. But for most other PCBs, there are advantages to building the way you show in your video (copper foil forming the top and bottom layers, and cores forming internal layers.) That is why most fabricators prefer the "foil construction" method. So in planning a PCB stack for most normal PCBs, the fabricator will typically select materials as follows: 4-layer PCB, 1x core. 6-layer PCB, 2x core. 8 -layer PCB, 3x core. 10-layer PCB, 4x core (etc.) You will always have 1 more prepreg layer than core layers: Example, 8 layer = 3 cores (6 internal circuit layers) with 4 prepregs (for 7 total dielectric / isolation positions.)
This is pretty awesome. I teach PCB Design from the ground up, and there's nothing quite like seeing a video to clarify things for new designers- thanks!
5:44 is this a "core" sheet painted with photosensitive paint? Or do you just have a photosensitive sheet to put on top of the copper? Or is it a "core" sheet pre-painted with photosensitive paint when it was bought?
Thank you for the awesome video. I am new to Orcad design. I learnt design with the help of all your videos. I have few questions, 1) how can I add thermal pad to QFN package IC? I want to make 4 layer pcb but I need to understand the cross section option in Allegro PCB editor design. Please help me. Thank you in advance
this is nice videos. i just know, how process build a multilayer in PCB and i have question for you.. from the ingridinent, pregpreg and chopper and the input go to press machine,then make become one PCB ?
In the stackup, do they simply achieve the 1 mil level accuracy simply with those 6 pins or is there any other process that is used? Or is there no need of the 1mil level accuracy as the vias give us a 5-10 mil clearance? Am I missing something here?
I don't know about anybody else, but i personally feel high confidence towards an individual possessing multiple rows of teeth, to teach me about multi layer pcb manufacturing.
2:39 Why did he put more than one sheet of prepreg? Is it just to make it thicker? Is it possible to make a thin double sided/2 layer pcb using one "core" sheet only?
Man, I didn't know the tin trick either, I was surprised, I'll ask around, I am not sure if that step is common. Thanks for the video, I have just subscribed!
I recently watched a HackaDay video lecture given by the guy that makes HackRFOne and he was talking about the benefits of using 4 layers or more when designing RF circuits and it's natural ability to combat RFI issues. He says to use the top board layer for just RF and RF Signals, the second layer should be unbroken ground, the third layer should be unbroken VCC and the last bottom layer is for the rest of the electronic circuit. Another top tip when designing for RF is to make all the RF traces 50 Ohm to make life easier for yourself. I'm working on a RF project and have taken all of this design advice on board and will be applying it to my first professionally fabricated board.
Very helpful video. Thanks. I have a few questions: (1)For a large panel with multiple layers, how can I avoid warping 'potato chipping'? (2) How flat typically are the pressure plates in the Burkle oven? (3) Do you have a recommendation for the time/pressure/temp/cooling cycle I should use to help ensure uniform flatness across my laminated panel? and finally (4)for a multi-layer Rogers panel, should I be using a vacuum lamination press?
to avoid warping it is important to evenly spread the copper on the layers /e.q. cross-hatching/ also the construction needs to be mirrored as most as possible. Burkle has very good quality of flatness, but still there are some aiding materials you can use to achieve perfect flatness. The recommendations are released by the material manufacturer. The vacuum is desired because of moisture/trapped air for every pcb.
If you run a current through both layers you can tell the bit to stop when the circuit is completed. It isnt drilled it seems to be pushed down but what is interesting is the filler and second layer are not effected. OK then he shows the drill so its drilled then how is there still copper on the side of the hole? The connection is not broken with a drill? Wait those bits are not all drills. I think it is a blunt pin that is traced over the board. That would explain how the second layer not effected and connection intact. "Pretty standard stuff" "You can do at home" I want to see that house. Your video of a video is great. "Very interesting stuff" I just watched a video of a video of a video I might upload this video and then divide by zero while watching Inception. Video 1930s: from Latin videre ‘to see’ combined with the English word "Audio"
If your pcb has more layers and for example only through hole VIAs, all drilling is done after all the layers are "baked" together. They do not drill the layers separately.
Just check out with your PCB manufacturer. Do not forget to use bigger minimum holes because of VIA aspect ratio (maybe minimum VIA could be like 0.35mm (?), but double check with your PCB manufacturer).
Harsh Goyal Core is a material with isolation in the middle and copper foils on both sides. In the video, the cores are inserted inside the PCB and they create the inner layers. I am not 100% sure, but maybe in some stackups, the core also can be used to create outside layers.
Okay.. So what I understood is.. If I want 2 inner layers.. I will add 1 core. So, I will get 2 signal layers on either side of the Core with isolation in between.
Harsh Goyal yes. I am not expert for PCB manufacturing, so I don't know exactly, but there are different combinations how they can do that ... for example (this is just my guessing) ... they could maybe also use two cores and prepreg between them (?)
Its possible to use 2 cores and preg between them, but its more expensive and also more suspectible to align mistake, also it requires more preparation
I have built rigid Flex single-sided double sided rigid boards Flex circuitry rigid Flex boards. but there's a lot of stuff a lot of information that you're not applying to where anyone that's going to learn are going to build or two manufacturer a PC board circuitry there is a lot of stuff into it. it takes approximately 33 40 days to complete 1 circuit board. didn't put down the wave machine you didn't put down the selective solder machine you didn't put down the hot oil Reflow machine or bath. you didn't put down the test boards are Scripts that the lab test to see that's the plating for the time that they were in the bath that support PCV hose I see holes had enough Copper Mill Justice pain the currency as well as meeting the spec of the of the mill that's required spec what are bored
Robert Feranec: Very useful video presentation. If you never confirmed your reply to Harsh Goyal, the following may be informative to future viewers:
Yes, to make a 4-layer PCB, it is possible to use 2 cores with prepreg isolation between. This was very common at one time for USA military PCBs, and is still used often for very high speed PCBs, especially RF PCBs which use special PTFE (Teflon) materials such as those from Rogers Corp. The distance between the copper layers is somewhat more consistent and predictable on cores than on prepreg, because the core layers are fully cured before lamination, so the signal integrity may be improved by use of cores.
But for most other PCBs, there are advantages to building the way you show in your video (copper foil forming the top and bottom layers, and cores forming internal layers.) That is why most fabricators prefer the "foil construction" method. So in planning a PCB stack for most normal PCBs, the fabricator will typically select materials as follows:
4-layer PCB, 1x core.
6-layer PCB, 2x core.
8 -layer PCB, 3x core.
10-layer PCB, 4x core (etc.)
You will always have 1 more prepreg layer than core layers: Example, 8 layer = 3 cores (6 internal circuit layers) with 4 prepregs (for 7 total dielectric / isolation positions.)
+diddlytube thank you :)
Watching after 8 year of creation but your content is still helping to learn and educate great video sir 😍
Interesting to see. I never seen this part of a pcb production. Thanks.
This is pretty awesome. I teach PCB Design from the ground up, and there's nothing quite like seeing a video to clarify things for new designers- thanks!
:)
thank you Robert. great vid..
+cappnzak Thank you :)
thank you. I didn't know how they're made.
+Galova :)
wonderful educational video on pcb.
Awesome Explanation
+rickyaguiar09 Thank you :)
Very helpful video. Thanks
+Bader Aldeen Nofal Thank you :)
Thanks for the video!
Really interesting video, thanks.
Obrigada! ❤️❤️❤️
cool video robert. thanks.
thank you :)
Yaghiyah Brenner ioii8887o99
thank you so much, i only knew the chemical etching method, else is new to me.
+新一工藤 :)
5:44 is this a "core" sheet painted with photosensitive paint? Or do you just have a photosensitive sheet to put on top of the copper? Or is it a "core" sheet pre-painted with photosensitive paint when it was bought?
hello mr feranec...a question please.... how can i buy these copper and prepreg leaves on line ...
I did this job for TYCO for 5 years back in 1996.
Thank you for the awesome video. I am new to Orcad design. I learnt design with the help of all your videos. I have few questions, 1) how can I add thermal pad to QFN package IC? I want to make 4 layer pcb but I need to understand the cross section option in Allegro PCB editor design. Please help me. Thank you in advance
Very informative video. What is the maximum limit on copper thickness for the inner layers?
this is nice videos.
i just know, how process build a multilayer in PCB
and i have question for you..
from the ingridinent, pregpreg and chopper and the input go to press machine,then make become one PCB ?
yes
In the stackup, do they simply achieve the 1 mil level accuracy simply with those 6 pins or is there any other process that is used? Or is there no need of the 1mil level accuracy as the vias give us a 5-10 mil clearance? Am I missing something here?
I don't know about anybody else, but i personally feel high confidence towards an individual possessing multiple rows of teeth, to teach me about multi layer pcb manufacturing.
2:39 Why did he put more than one sheet of prepreg? Is it just to make it thicker? Is it possible to make a thin double sided/2 layer pcb using one "core" sheet only?
Do you want the PCB Making machines especially the DES Machine line and SES Machine lines ?
Man, I didn't know the tin trick either, I was surprised, I'll ask around, I am not sure if that step is common. Thanks for the video, I have just subscribed!
thank you for subscribing :)
Tin is used like metalic resist, which protects plated holes better than standard photoresist during etching in alcalical solution.
Where can one buy that special type of copper, i'd to try to make a multilayer PCB like this some day
I recently watched a HackaDay video lecture given by the guy that makes HackRFOne and he was talking about the benefits of using 4 layers or more when designing RF circuits and it's natural ability to combat RFI issues. He says to use the top board layer for just RF and RF Signals, the second layer should be unbroken ground, the third layer should be unbroken VCC and the last bottom layer is for the rest of the electronic circuit. Another top tip when designing for RF is to make all the RF traces 50 Ohm to make life easier for yourself. I'm working on a RF project and have taken all of this design advice on board and will be applying it to my first professionally fabricated board.
Is the "core" isolation made of prepreg too?
Very helpful video. Thanks. I have a few questions: (1)For a large panel with multiple layers, how can I avoid warping 'potato chipping'? (2) How flat typically are the pressure plates in the Burkle oven? (3) Do you have a recommendation for the time/pressure/temp/cooling cycle I should use to help ensure uniform flatness across my laminated panel? and finally (4)for a multi-layer Rogers panel, should I be using a vacuum lamination press?
to avoid warping it is important to evenly spread the copper on the layers /e.q. cross-hatching/ also the construction needs to be mirrored as most as possible. Burkle has very good quality of flatness, but still there are some aiding materials you can use to achieve perfect flatness. The recommendations are released by the material manufacturer. The vacuum is desired because of moisture/trapped air for every pcb.
Sorry for my question, but the english is your native language?
If you run a current through both layers you can tell the bit to stop when the circuit is completed.
It isnt drilled it seems to be pushed down but what is interesting is the filler and second layer are not effected.
OK then he shows the drill so its drilled then how is there still copper on the side of the hole? The connection is not broken with a drill? Wait those bits are not all drills. I think it is a blunt pin that is traced over the board. That would explain how the second layer not effected and connection intact.
"Pretty standard stuff" "You can do at home"
I want to see that house.
Your video of a video is great. "Very interesting stuff"
I just watched a video of a video of a video I might upload this video and then divide by zero while watching Inception.
Video 1930s: from Latin videre ‘to see’ combined with the English word "Audio"
Hi,, acid trap is an issue of modern pcb fabrication???
If we build multi layer pcb manufacturing factory what kind of machinery want for it. please help me. I want basic first start.
where can you get that copper foil, it has to be crinkle free.
Dobry film :-)
+Mariusz Połetek :)
What is the insulator made up of?
Thanks for the video! The cores look like they were already etched. Is this true? If so, were they also drilled?
If your pcb has more layers and for example only through hole VIAs, all drilling is done after all the layers are "baked" together. They do not drill the layers separately.
what do you mean exactly with Core?
+Shadi Alaghbari A core is "Copper + Dielectricum + Copper" - basically you can say, copper is a "2 layer PCB"
How to make 4mm board thickness with 8 layers stack up.
Just check out with your PCB manufacturer. Do not forget to use bigger minimum holes because of VIA aspect ratio (maybe minimum VIA could be like 0.35mm (?), but double check with your PCB manufacturer).
Hey Robert... Really helpful. One doubt, Are you calling the inner layers as Core??
Harsh Goyal Core is a material with isolation in the middle and copper foils on both sides. In the video, the cores are inserted inside the PCB and they create the inner layers. I am not 100% sure, but maybe in some stackups, the core also can be used to create outside layers.
Okay.. So what I understood is.. If I want 2 inner layers.. I will add 1 core. So, I will get 2 signal layers on either side of the Core with isolation in between.
Harsh Goyal yes. I am not expert for PCB manufacturing, so I don't know exactly, but there are different combinations how they can do that ... for example (this is just my guessing) ... they could maybe also use two cores and prepreg between them (?)
Its possible to use 2 cores and preg between them, but its more expensive and also more suspectible to align mistake, also it requires more preparation
Good video but will be better with more details
Hi Heraclio, what information would help you?
Unsolved Rubik's cubes get very annoying when you can solve them haha
+Hayden Barton :) in some other videos it is solved ;)
Haha :P Every-time I see one unsolved i feel like I need to solve it
you haven't been able to solve the rubicks cube I see
I have built rigid Flex single-sided double sided rigid boards Flex circuitry rigid Flex boards. but there's a lot of stuff a lot of information that you're not applying to where anyone that's going to learn are going to build or two manufacturer a PC board circuitry there is a lot of stuff into it. it takes approximately 33 40 days to complete 1 circuit board. didn't put down the wave machine you didn't put down the selective solder machine you didn't put down the hot oil Reflow machine or bath. you didn't put down the test boards are Scripts that the lab test to see that's the plating for the time that they were in the bath that support PCV hose I see holes had enough Copper Mill Justice pain the currency as well as meeting the spec of the of the mill that's required spec what are bored
Technology disapier from original creater .
wery gud inglisz
without urazy
Miki Styza he shares things he knows with us, even though it's not his mother's tongue! You should be grateful for that! Nice video!