The End Is Near! Dr's Richard Carrier & Dennis Macdonald
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
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Both of these scholars have contributed in various ways to advancing the mythological and intertextuality of the NT authors. If Christians really understood this literature for what it really is, they would assume the gospels were heretical based on their paradigms.
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Get Dr. Dennis R. MacDonald's works on Amazon here - www.amazon.com...
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www.richardcar... This has links to follow Richards Twitter and Facebook and Patreon and so on. He survives on patronage by his blogging at Patreon and welcomes all the help there he can get at / drrichardcarrier . His books are all available in print, digital, and audio at www.richardcar... . He also teaches affordable online courses in history and philosophy at secularactivism.... Other ways to help and support his work are listed at www.richardcar... . Also, check out his Publicity page: www.richardcar...
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I just watched the interview where they’re outside..I LOOOOOVED the crickets. It was very chill, like hanging with friends outside on a summer night, drinking and contemplating.
Derek your sacrifice was worth it.. wine and good conversations with two brilliant minds.. it’s gold thank you!
The audio is all that matters for discussion vids, and it's so remarkable how rarely anyone can ever get it right. In the "Analog Age," it was rare that anyone got it wrong.
Congratulations Derek 7 years great job!!!
Damn the difference between GMT and PDT. Really wanted to join in the chat for this one, but staying up to 5am in the morning for a second time in two days is just too much.!!
Looking forward to listening to this later today.
Great stuff Derek, thanks for all the time and effort you put into these videos!!! 🤩
Man, it's really unfortunate how the audio is just so bad with this episode, especially around 1:30:00. I can barely understand what they're saying ☹️
Derek you SERIOUSLY Rock!!! Keep up the superlative work brother!!!
Way BETTER then Drunk History. Can we get a drinking game going to this video?
R.Macdonald is THE best, he is THE ONE!
Ronald
Everyone needs a mic! Light, not so much. GREAT JOB
The sound is terrible! Great stuff. Good explanation of the purge
Good job guys!!!
Fantastic 2 part series, 10/10. I really enjoyed Dr. MacDonald talk about Manichaeism. I have always been fascinated by it and there seems to be scarce information about it for a religion that was so popular for centuries. As a rational person who reads a lot about all religions, I see them as broken clocks that are right twice a day. Therefore the syncretic type religions that try to take the good material from a variety of sources seem more rational. IMO they lose the plot when they make their founders divine or connected to divinity (Bahais and Manichees especially). I also enjoyed watching Dr MacDonald and Dr Carrier crush the Buchanan's haha
Love you, Derek. You're doing amazing work.
May Great Darwin's Finches look after you.
That was brilliant thank you!
Has Dr Carrier ever commented on the Nazareth vs Bethlehem thing in the bible? I mean the hoops the writers go through to have him born in Bethlehem rather than Nazareth. If he wasn't real, then the reason for doing that is confusing.
Watching Carrier suffer through this was (Chef’s Kiss). I enjoyed it immensely.
This is a really great format for discussing history & having questions answered even if you are all Yanks!? Is Richard Canadian!? Yanks knowing about history I thought I was hallucinating when this podcast rocked up haha - really great content - congrats -from a Great Satirical Brit...
This reminds me of project Camelot from back in the day
Sound is not great,
The sound quality is unbearable. I couldn't take more than 20 minutes. Can't wait for DL to get back to his studio.
On the topic of "mysteriously discovered books" I can remember in the Book of Mormon a group of Nephites find the "Jaredite Plates" at some point, so its a discovered book inside a discovered book!
Who decides which Cartoon is Best ???
Geez…I wanted to here this so bad but I’m so disappointed because I can barely make out what Dennis is saying. I’m not sure what’s wrong with the audio and if the problem is on my end but Dennis is very muffled…I can here Dr. Carrier just fine.
Thanks for your efforts. Sharing information is essential to a progressive society.
Neville Goddard was correct about mans Imagination being God.
If you can not see your description i found mine hiding under a "v" to reveal it and a "^" to hide it in the shortened version to the right of the title under the thumbnail
ugh cant believe I missed part 1. Anyway Dennis is onto something big when describing the water-rock. Unfortunately he needs to realize that Dionysus + Demeter = The First Goddess, who is also the Last Goddess, or Ultimate Goddess. And it is impious to the Ultimate Goddess to mention the name of "H*rry P*tter" who was specifically created by his evil demiurge, to suppress the priests and power of the Ultimate Goddess, with the thundering Drums, who rules the Earth, who will rise and destroy all abrahamic religions and the patriarchy once and for all.
All of your interviews should be done with the use of alcohol.
If there is a Q, I think it is a lost Plato document.
Q is perhaps all of the stories that Paul told when he was preaching and getting converts. What the writers of the Gospels remembered hearing from Paul is what they used as source material. Just a theory
Pls. Ask the gods of audio to help out. Also Hermes.
Praised be Thor for the gift of Jägermeister.
In remembrance of Fjǫlnir's death in a vat of mead.Skol!
Thank You! LORD is coming soon! Soon as the Father gives the go! GOD BLESS
Can you give me a date please?
@@bigboy9983 it should be any century now.
@@bigboy9983 not allowed. Not kidding. The LORD and I agreed not to disclose.
Think I'm crazy? Think again. GOD BLESS
@@MadMax-gc2vj not here to convince you, don't care. You are not of GOD that is your problem not mine. Enjoy the horror show.
Sagittarius the (persian) Archer (equal to Apollo the god of poetry) having a sharp arrow or pencil is opening the rock (the mind, knowledge), the compagnon of Sag is Perseus the warrior (Jesus, Aaron the warrior priest). Thus dual or Twin.
The Law is knowledge thus the rock, opened by Moses. Mithras/Perseus kills the Bull and blood (living water) flows. At pentecoast it is Peter who pours out the HS by speech. At gogoltha it Is Longinus (simon) who pierced Jesus (water + spirit is released). And of course it is Simon who made it possible by delivering/betraying Jesus. Caiaphas (Kefas) and Pilate have their role in it too. Jesus saves his buddy Peter when they battle at/in the sea. Paul is also saved after shipwrecking (makes Paul & Peter buddies not that they are the same person).
If Josephus shipwreck is of any importance (let's be open-minded) let's dive deeper into at what place he strands. Is it at the island of the Deceiver ? Paul shakes the Snake off, does Josephus ? Anyone to answer this ? If Derek dives deeper into Islam , dhul Qarnain (Cornelius, Melchi sedek) also arrives at the hidden, secret gathering place of gog & magog. Maybe we will find some answers there. Ralph Ellis is also fan of this Paul = Josephus thing, sofar I don't get it, why bring it up ?
Carrier's not wearing a vest. What's up with that?
Love them both but audio made it unwatchable, a real disappointment, such a waste.
The more I read and learn about these topics the more and more I'm convinced that Bart Ehrman is completely wrong and deceitful, and that the jesus character was inserted anchored into a historical time, before that perhaps a composite character of a small sect of people who were against the temple hierarchy or perhaps just the already existing phantom which falls in line either a paul. As well as the total absence of him in any real historical accounts and all the hocus pocus/abstract theologies. Bart Ehman is wrong.
One Richard Carrier video was more than enough for me. I will look forward to your other guests, though.
At 1:07:45, Carrier gets a jab in at Atwill, claiming that he gets a bunch of stuff wrong regarding the Greek language. I'm curious as to what specifically Atwill allegedly gets wrong, so as (presumably) to render his CAESAR'S MESSIAH [CM] thesis untenable.
In CM, Atwill generally uses English translations of the texts (i.e. of the Greek New Testament & Josephus, etc.) that are readily available, and only delves into specific Greek words insofar as the word-choice is curious and in need of explication. For example, in the (in)famous "Testimonium Flavianum" Josephus mentions that Jesus "was a teacher of such men as receive the truth with PLEASURE" -- and Atwill goes into how the Greek word for PLEASURE which Josephus uses ['hedone'] is the root for the English word 'hedonism', which Liddell & Scott translate as "delight, enjoyment, pleasure" and relate to the Latin word 'voluptas' (which Cassell's translates also as "sensual pleasures"). The implication is that Jesus's audience became sexually aroused by his teachings (as far as Josephus was concerned).
Atwill says: "Scholars have puzzled over Josephus' use of 'hedone' here. 'Hedone' usually denotes sensual or malicious pleasure, and "to accept the truth with hedone" is a strange concept."
Except that it makes perfect sense for the author of this passage (Josephus) to use that Greek word, in that -- according to Atwill's thesis -- the story was meant to be read in the context of the other two stories following it, especially the saucy story of the lustful Decius Mundus and his debauching of Paulina, by taking advantage of her devotion to the goddess Isis, pretending to be the god Anubis (wearing the jackal-head mask) who wants to have sex with her. Believing him to actually BE the god Anubis, she willingly lets him schtupp her, having previously turned him down despite his having offered her riches beyond measure just for one night of pleasure.
There are other examples in CM of Atwill going into detail regarding specific Greek words, and every example I can remember helped to explain WHY a specific word would be used -- in a way which bolsters his thesis, of course. I took 2 years of Greek language in college, and I have my trusty Liddell & Scott Greek Dictionary, and as far as I've been able to see, Atwill didn't get anything wrong regarding the Greek language, as Carrier here alleges. Having perused Atwill's own website, I'm well aware of the fact that Carrier doesn't endorse Atwill's thesis. Several years ago Robert Price, too, was dismissive of Atwill's work, though of late he seems to be less dismissive of it than before -- not that he fully endorses it, mind you, but on more recent MythVision podcasts he has seemed to be more open about the possibilities.
I would really like to see Carrier and Atwill on a future MythVision podcast, preferably a friendly and respectful debate of the CM thesis on its merits. Myself, I find Atwill's thesis to be the lens through which the entire question of Christianity's origins becomes most clear and in focus. Little things, like Atwill's comparison of the Virgin Birth narrative with the tale of Bagoas the Eunuch in Josephus's ANTIQUITIES -- Atwill's CM thesis just makes the inclusion of that Bagoas story in the 'history' of Herod's reign all-the-more relevant. It's Flavian propaganda disguised as 'history'. It's also a cynical dig at the credulous people who think a virgin girl can actually become magically impregnated -- just as Bagoas was a deluded fool to believe that he could ever beget children.
Carrier knows a lot of things. It just surprises me that he can't see how damned useful Atwill's thesis is towards answering the questions: WHO wrote the New Testament? WHY was it written? HOW was it composed? WHERE did the documents first appear? And WHY THE F*#& does the 3 & 1/2 year 'ministry' of Jesus share so many goddamned parallels with the 3 & 1/2 year military campaign of Titus, sharing the same locations in the same time-order? Does Carrier deny those parallels exist? If so, how can he, when they're THERE? If not, how else could they get there except through authorial intention? Does he think it's all just one coincidence piled upon another and another and another, ad infinitem?
Carrier really needs to debate Atwill, if he expects me to take him as seriously as he'd prefer. Atwill's thesis MAKES PERFECT SENSE. The Romans weren't above deifying emperors and inventing religions for reasons of state. Why is it so hard to accept the idea that they may very well have been the movers & shakers who created Christianity too, for reasons of state? To control the gullible religiously-fanatical masses? To glorify themselves in a sneaky way (i.e. by typologically designing a fake past Messiah whose career was modeled upon Titus's exploits in the 'future' that had already happened by the time the Gospels were concocted)?
MythVision is the place for just such a debate. Make it happen!
My friend, Atwill’s theory is the absolute farthest a theory could be from ‘MAKES PERFECT SENSE’. Just from the start it is laughably implausible. The Romans invented Christianity to pacify Palestine? I can’t even fathom how insanely unlikely that is. You would need incredible evidence to justify such a claim. Atwill’s literary parallels don’t even come close. Most aren’t even convincing. I assure you, Dr. Carrier has better uses of his time than debating a pseudo-historian and his bunk theory.
I can always tell when an Atwill-hater hasn't even read his book. The Romans -- i.e. the Flavians -- invented Christianity NOT to pacify Judea (their military efforts destroyed Jerusalem & its Temple, slaughtering all opposition and forcing most of the rest into the Diaspora), but to combat MESSIANIC JUDAISM, which Josephus told Vespasian was the motive force behind the popular uprising against Roman domination of their 'Holy' land.
The rebellious Jews had a way of going about their rebellion. First, they believed that it was the sins of their own people which brought upon them the overlordship of pagan empires -- from Assyria & Babylon (which led to the destruction of Solomon's Temple) to the Greeks (whom the Jews, under the Maccabees, fought) to, finally, the Romans.
According to their 'sacred' history, God promised their ancestors (Abraham, &c) that if they repented He would forgive them, and He would be with their Leader -- whom they themselves had selected and then ANOINTED -- to purge the land of the unclean pagans who had served their purpose as God's 'scourge' to punish sinning Israel.
The Jews who revolted against Rome in AD 66 believed that they couldn't lose the war between the Sons of Light (themselves) and the Sons of Darkness (the Romans), provided they followed the strict rules of purity mandated by Moses. The ultra-strict rules followed by the Jews who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls show just how seriously they took the covenant God had made with their ancestors.
The whole point was that the Messiah WASN'T some hero sent down from Heaven. It was one of their own people, a modern-day (i.e. "Latter Day") DAVID, who -- like the original David -- could slay a giant with a mere slingshot. The term "Son of David" didn't really mean a literal blood descendant of David; it meant ANY righteous Israelite whom they thought was the best man for the job, who would lead the fight against the Enemy just like David did before. THEY were the ones who 'anointed' whichever man they chose to be their warlord against Rome, making that man an Anointed One -- a Messiah. The Maccabees were not of Davidic descent, nor did they need to be to act against their enemies like David of old. Acting like David made one a 'son' of David.
How could the Romans combat this idea?
After the Jewish War was over (by AD 73), this philosophy behind Messianic Judaism could well crop up again and again, with the Jews merely anointing another then another man to lead them in the never-ending strife. The Jews would always interpret their current lack of success as a sign of their own failure to keep up their side of the covenant -- i.e. they 'sinned' somehow, and God allows their enemies to get the better of them, just as occasionally happened during the Conquest when Joshua ben Nun was their anointed leader.
So, here's what the Romans did. They concocted an 'official' history of the war they had just won -- written by Josephus -- and took the exploits of Titus (his 3 & 1/2 year military campaign) to use as a typological framework around which to construct the supposed career of Jesus (i.e. his 3 & 1/2 year 'ministry'), setting this fake history exactly 40 YEARS into the past.
By PRETENDING that "the Messiah" WASN'T any particular man whom the Jews could anoint themselves to be their leader, but was instead just ONE DIVINE MAN-GOD who had ALREADY APPEARED on the stage of history -- back when Pontius Pilate was governing Judea on Rome's behalf -- the Roman Flavian emperors could orchestrate the 'Christ' character's words and actions any which way they wanted . . . all in such a way as to make it seem as if this Messiah was ANTI-Jewish and PRO-Roman, predicting the destruction of the Temple in one generation (that "40 Years" detail) because these Gospels were written after the destruction had already come to pass.
These same Flavian emperors had a hand in creating Rabbinical Judaism, which came to believe that "the Messiah" is NOT any prospective leader (a righteous Israelite) whom they themselves could anoint, but, rather, some yet-to-come FUTURE REDEEMER whom Jews to this day are still awaiting.
The Flavians sought to extirpate Messianic Judaism from their conquered imperial provinces, but they didn't succeed right away. The Bar Kokhba rebellion in AD 132 was led by an 'anointed' man (Simon bar Kokhba), later thought to be a false messiah because his revolt was crushed by the Romans.
In the aftermath of Bar Kokhba's defeat in AD 135/6, the only form of "messianism" that the Romans would allow in their empire was that of the pacified Jews (Rabbinical Judaism, with its spiritualized future-Messiah for whom they would interminably wait) and the followers of the "Prince of Peace" (Jesus) who had supposedly already had his 'Advent' (having preached against the "evil and adulterous generation" of Jews circa AD 30), and subsequently ascended into Heaven . . . to return one day in a Second Advent which was essentially no different from the ONLY Advent of the expected Messiah whom the Rabbinical Jews believed in.
Rome would never tolerate the kind of Messiah that a rebellious community could produce on their own, by the mere act of a ceremonial anointing, the method that the Jews used both in AD 66 and in AD 132.
The career of Jesus -- as Atwill shows -- bears too many parallels to the career of Titus for it to be merely coincidence. The Gospels AND Josephus's JEWISH WAR were written by the same group of propagandists, all for the greater glory of the fledgling Flavian Dynasty. The deified Vespasian became "the Father" to Titus ("the Son"), who was sent by his father to fulfill the 'prophecies' of Jesus, which were written after-the-fact.
Makes perfect sense.
@@patricktilton5377 My friend, these propositions are plainly absurd. The idea that the Gospels were written by a unified entity is contradicted by every ounce of legitimate Bible scholarship. Mark, Luke and Matthew all had different aims and conceptions of what it meant to follow Christ. Discovering where (and likely why) they agreed and disagreed is a momentous triumph of the study and is a window into the politics and theology of the early church. And we throw that all away for what? For literary parallels as flimsy as damp cardboard? It’s a travesty. Atwill’s ‘methodology’ hardly rises above Bible Code. It’s fine to make earth shattering claims, of course, as sometimes they turn out to be true. Relativity breaks many of our intuitions about the world, after all. As did the heliocentric model of the solar system so long ago. The thing is (and this is very very important) those theories were accepted after being backed by mountains of indisputable, rock-solid evidence. Evidence so overwhelming that it completely overturned any initial skepticism. Atwill makes extraordinary claims but is severely lacking in extraordinary evidence. He is little more than a tea leaf reader, drawing fallacious conclusions from clearly spurious connections to fit his preconceived beliefs. This is the pretense of insight and nothing more. My friend, I wish you luck in your search for truth going foreword. May your path lead you to more solid ground.
Thank you for taking your valuable time to inform us about an interesting theory on the origins of Christianity. I've not read Atwill; just viewed his YT vids, and was very unimpressed. He doesn't seem to know that there were, really, only Roman Christians after the war. Why would Caesar commission works to be written in such a way that, fundamentally, only Romans were influenced by them? Far from making sense, sir, this is unintelligible. Don't you rather think?
An even more unintelligible issue is that Jesus means means Joshua, not David. Joshua is the paradigm messiah: he doesn't come tomorrow, nor from heaven: he kills the enemy and hands Jacob the money today.
Atwill failed to notice that, in the NT, only Romans got killed, and their money went ONLY to Jerusalem, "to make the Jews jealous," The Sanhedrin Member winks (Rom., 11.11, 14).
Romans got killed, Jews got the money, and Rome ended up with the West's most gigantic and enduring suicide cult. That's Joshua today, not David tomorrow. Again, Atwill just makes no sense at all.
You've somehow gotten a very skewed view of what Atwill's thesis is really all about. You really ought to read his CAESAR'S MESSIAH book -- most of the contents of which are not dealt with in his YT presentations, I find.
Your 3rd paragraph doesn't make any sense. The phrase "only Romans got killed" -- what? It was Rome that did the killing -- killing Jews who rebelled against them in the War that lasted from 66 to 73 CE. The quote from ROMANS ("to make the Jews jealous") has nothing to do with moneys that went to Jerusalem; Paul's talking about how the blessings of the God of the Jews went to the Gentiles -- Paul referring to himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles [11:13] -- so that the Jews would become jealous of the favoritism their God is now showing to non-Jews.
But all this was written AFTER the War. The letters Paul is supposed to have written between the supposed Ascension of Jesus and his own martyrdom in Rome were really composed after the War -- those epistles AND the book of ACTS basically forged to fill in the timeframe between the fictional Gospels and the War described in the Flavian propagandist Josephus's JEWISH WAR. There isn't a shred of evidence that Jesus ever existed, or that Paul ever did either. We have these documents that were gathered into a 'New Testament' and which make their first appearance well after the end of the War -- but we are meant to BELIEVE that Paul's epistles were written beforehand, because that's part of the scam. It's all a fake history written by people working for the Flavian emperors.
Their goal? Among their goals was to DESTROY MESSIANIC JUDAISM, the 'philosophy' that triggered armed resistance against Rome by the majority of Jews in the 1st Century. The War of 66-to-73 CE and the later Bar-Kokhba revolt c. 135 CE were the one-two punch that achieved this goal militarily.
From then on, the ONLY type of 'Messianism' that Rome would tolerate were the two competing religions created in the wake of Jewish War: Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism. The former pretends that THE Messiah (Jesus) is not some future Israelite hero who will wipe out the Pagans (i.e. the Romans) and lead the Jews to the victory they envisioned in their War Scroll, but, rather, he ALREADY HAS BEEN HERE AND GONE -- ascending into Heaven, to return one day to judge the world . . . and when he WAS here, he constantly condemned the JEWS while simultaneously pointing out how much more virtuous the Romans occupying Judaea were.
The latter -- Rabbinical Judaism -- without a Temple and the sacrificial system that was wiped out by the War, had to come up with a different way to view the Messianic references in their own scriptures (since they obviously didn't accept Jesus as having been the fulfillment of those prophecies). Thus, Jews today believe that the Messiah is YET TO COME in the future -- just as Christians believe that the ascended Christ will return in a 'Second Advent' -- to end the world/age and set up God's kingdom.
Gone is the 'philosophy' that motivated the Jews to rebel against Rome -- the notion that the Jewish community could select any righteous Israelite to be their warlord, ANOINTING him -- which makes him a 'Christ' or 'Messiah' -- so that he could lead them in their fight against the Pagans who didn't acknowledge YHWH as the one true God. It was this source of trouble that Rome rooted out, massacring any and every Jew who took up arms against Rome by following such 'anointed' battlefield commanders, and thenceforth allowing ONLY those forms of 'Messianism' which did NOT represent a military threat against Rome.
Read Atwill's book. There's a hell of a lot more in it than just what I've delineated above.
GTG
Carrier looks like he’s put on a few pounds, methinks it could be the wine.
..and this comment says more about you than anything else.
a forward facing couch is not a lectern which is why no professional media would have this set up...these are two mature sea lions, they need that girth on the beach
Scholars awesome. Show runner, film, audio guy….step back , run thing’s behind the scenes. Your not why were here. STOP. Get an editor, edit and get out of the way. PLEASE