I dunno about this Menno. Sure, maybe the bicep is lengthened more using a neutral or pronated grip, but when you go to failure using reverse curls or hammer curls, it's not really the bicep that is the limiting factor is it? It's the Brachioradialis and the brachialis that are the limiting factors in those exercises because they have the best leverage, right? Unless you are saying that the bicep being lengthened/stretched is more beneficial than actually taking a muscle to failure, I'm not so sure about this. EDIT: I may perhaps have used the term "limiting factor" inaccurately in its technical definition, so please scroll down under the replies to this comment where I clarify what I meant with my use of the term.
You don’t understand limiting factors. I haven’t even watched this video yet so I’m not defending menno, but when there is a single joint there can’t be a limiting factor between the forces acting on that joint. Like in a freeweight squat, there can be a limiting factor between the knee force and hip force, but in a leg press, there is no limiting factor between the 2 because their movement is jointed due to the fixed path of the machine
He seemingly lacks the knowledge of how sarcomerogenesis (stretch mediated growth) will increase the length of sarcomeres until they are so long in series that further sarcomerogenesis is impossible, which is why stretch mediated growth (and I say growth because it’s muscle growth but technically not hypertrophy as Chris Beardsley elucidated) is a self limiting prophecy and can only occur for a set time (think 3-6 months) until the benefits inherently stop more benefits from occurring
This basically means that stretch will promote more growth for a very small set period and once those benefits are achieve sarcomerogenesis which is the mechanism by whites stretch mediated growth occurs will become impossible in that muscle.
Love your work Menno. I think one thing that is overlooked in the claims you make is the role of the lifter in the distribution of force among different muscle groups while performing compound exercises. Keep up the good work!
2:08 I'm sorry, but I don't get the correlation between grip *width* and wrist position. You're making it sound like "since grip position doesn't affect biceps recruitment, then you can use any wrist position you want". More importantly, you didn't address the crucial concern raised by the supination argument: the biceps start already shortened, that is correct, but this also allows them to fully contract and contribute to the lift. A more pronated grip prevents the biceps from contracting and it should, in theory, shift the load to the other elbow flexors, recruiting the brachialis and brachioradialis more. In contrast, rotating the wrist from pronation/neutral into supination while curling could be better, to both reach the full stretch and still have the biceps greatly contribute to the entirety of the lift.
Also using different grips may make other muscles the limiting factors in a movement preventing you from taking your biceps to failure, this isnt a big deal if youre a beginner but te more advanced you get the more you need that extra intensity to grow.
Grip width determines wrist position. A narrow grip pull up puts your forearm in a pronated position, a wide grip pull up puts it in a neutral position. With neutral grip pull ups you go from neutral (narrow) to slight supination (wide). And with chin ups you get varying degrees of supination.
Yeah. I do a mix of machine preacher curls, standing neutral-to-supinated grip DB curls and occasionally mix in incline DB curls. All 3 are solid variations for me and they all feel good.
It's really motivational stuff to see when other people admire your body and hard work. That's what made me to start my transformation about a year ago. Firstly I got a meal plan from Onlymeal and started doing some exercises at home. My friends and family were making fun of me, thinking I will give up. But day after day, meal after meal, I managed to do it. I lost 120lbs thanks to my diet and dedication, and I am feeling a lot happier now. I am finally ready to start living my life to the fullest.
Furthermore, how many times have we seen biceps tears on an exercise with pronated forearm? I, personally, have only ever seen biceps tears on exercises with supinated grip, including deadlifts, chinups, straight bar curls, etc, which suggests to me that these movements put far more tension on the biceps than a pronated or neutral grip does, and we know that tension is a big driving factor in muscle growth. Nobody fails reverse curls due to biceps fatigue, or hammer curls for the same. These curls just do not stress or even use the biceps as much as actively supinating during a curl, or using fixed supinated grip. Science shows one thing, but real world experience shows another. There's a reason why people who skip arms while claiming compounds work arms have smaller arms than people who include isolations.
Yeah, I was thinking the same... Simply placing your arm to your side in a relaxed position with hand neutral or in pronation kind of shows how the thought process here is a bit off... In this position, the bicep is not stretched but rather just relaxed...that's why it feels so normal to do. But keeping your arm in the same place and supinating the wrist immediately feels less comfortable and has more tension. Not because the bicep is "flexed", but simply because it's engaged, or perhaps trying to flex while in a stretched position (tension) to be more accurate. That tension even goes down a bit as you raise your arm from the elbow as in a regular curl, because there's less tension on the bicep here in mid-flexion than when down to your side. I love you, Menno, but your argument on # 1 really doesn't hold up very well.
That his hilarious. Especially considering noobs have oftentimes trouble leaving the bicep out of back movements, so they are stimulating it because they do it wrong.
Yup! Especially with a closer or underhand grip which puts the elbows pointing straight forward with no flare since now the flexion motion would mainly move your hands front to back (which can move the bar/implement since it's not fixed in this plane) with very minimal vertical contribution to the direction of pull. I also haven't seen any studies on trained lifters comparing compound back exercises to elbow flexor isolation exercises. So while I think the biceps are still involved, it may not be enough stimulus for more intermediate-advanced lifters to actually grow them anymore compared to beginners. Although often times more advanced trainees simply grow less from the same intervention so it's totally possible everyone grows from it just overall it's much harder to grow muscle as you get more advanced.
I have been doing this for many years. 3 sets of supinated grip, 3 sets of neutral grip, and 3 sets of pronated grip. Not only does hypertrophy of the brachialis “push up” the bicep muscle making it appear more full, but having juicy brachioradialis muscles, just makes your arms look cool. Its not as if only supinated grip exercises target the biceps, so its not like you are neglecting them. Try this out for a few months. Arms always feel pumped.
I’m going to push back on this because, to my knowledge, there haven’t been any studies directly comparing long-length training to higher intensity training (whether in terms of load or time under tension). As you’ve noted, the biceps achieve greater leverage in a supinated grip, allowing for heavier loads and more reps (or longer time under tension). Given this, I find it unlikely that training with a lower load and/or fewer reps-but achieving a greater stretch due to a pronated or neutral grip-would be more effective for promoting growth than using higher loads and/or more reps with a supinated grip.
I already do reverse curls for my forearms, but would never dream of treating them like a true biceps exercise. Even when I destroy my biceps, I can still do sets of reverse curls without the biceps giving out. They do very little work.
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As an armwrestler who trains almost exclusively neutral and pronated curl variations (as well as training back with the same grips) I can assure you that for SEVERAL YEARS my biceps saw extremely little if not zero growth, while I assumed they would grow from all the elbow flexion. However, it was only when I started including dumbbell supinating curls and EZ bar curls that my biceps actually started growing. So there's an individual case study of considerable duration that shows, for me at least, that the forearms work more than the biceps when not using a supinated/supinating grip on curls.
You're right and Mennoo doesn't understand functional anatomy. The biceps is THE primary elbow supinator. I suggest you all stop following random numptys on the internet and get a life. Or follow someone who talks sense?
Thank you very much for this video, Menno! This helps alot in understanding that compound exercises have always been kings, and non-fitness enthusiasts can go a long way with full body workouts with calisthenics and don't have to add isolations to save time.
Thank God Menno, I got a lot of shit for disagreeing on a RP short a few days ago where mike said Hammer curls are almost always useless and supinated Is better everytime. But I would disagree with pronated curls being a good option as usually Is the grip which Is limiting.
A lot of people seem to think Mike Israetel is infallible, and would never question anything he says. They are mistaken. It is ironic that Mike would think hammer curls are useless, when despite his gear usage, people who extensively do hammer curls without the use of steroids have better arms than him.
10:26 'elbow should be at your side or behind'. I get the point here is to train the bicep at the shoulder (which is why Dr. Mike likes the lying bench bicep curl), but I still feel like the Preacher Curl is superior. I feel a more massive stimulus due to the fact that there is a normal force (the pad that supports the arm) which allows for better feeling of isolation. I've seen your knee supported curl where you lean back on the eccentric, but it still can't beat the pad of the preacher. Any direct bicep isolation move I feel best when there is a direct support just under the elbow (not any further, or else the eccentric portion gets capped).
Feeling a muscle doesn't correlate with hypertrophy or even the stimulus the muscle is getting. Most people would argue that you feel most muscles the most when they are in their shortened position, which is the least needed range of motion for hypertrophy. That being said, preacher curls are still great, because you have the benefit of actually making it a lot easier to load them in a lengthened position (even if not fully lengthened due to the shoulder joint), while with laying/incline dumbbell curls you usually run. into the problem of not having a lot of load at the most lengthened position (or too much load on your front dents if you keep your arms up).
@@LucaBl Your error is assuming that I am talking about the concentric portion. I was talking about the eccentric, or lengthened portion of the move, which works best when there is an opposing force (the pad), rather than relying on gravity solely.
@@SteveJonesOwnsDSP no, I understand what you are saying. I was just saying, that feeling a muscle doesn't mean anything. Like for example I feel my quads like hell with a leg extension and way less with a reverse nordic or a sissy squat, while both of those are more growth promoting for sure. I do agree with your point even, that's what I was saying with second paragraph.
Preacher curls done with a nautilus curl machine or whatever they are called are the best. My current shitty gym doesn't have those but I was visting a different city for a month and the gym there had it. I felt my biceps like never before and I think I have gotten real growth. It even increased the number of chinups I can do!
I can do 22 hammer curls with 60 lb dumbbells. If I go to form failure on the hammer curls and then immediately drop the weight to 20 lb, I can follow-up with about 8 fully supinated curls before hitting form failure again. I take this as evidence that the hammer curls really nailed my biceps, which would tend to support Menno’s argument. Also, I think that there is some EMG evidence that hammer curls stimulate the brachialis and the long head of the biceps about equally.
Beasue the bicep is shortened and it's trying to be stretched. Like imagine having a long rubber band and a short rubber band, the shorter one will snap faster if you pull. The longer band can be stretched further before snapping. Hope that makes sense.
do me a favor, put your arm out on your desk and then rotate your hand to a supinated grip. watch the bicep get "sucked up towards your shoulder" think of it in terms of a rubber band, long ones will stretch further, shorter ones don't. Its why tearing occurs more often will supinated because you are trying to get it to stretch beyond what's allowed while you have a shortened bicep.
Unrelated to this video, but would you consider doing a video concerning Greg Nuckols' new article regarding recommendations for protein requirements? It was a very in depth and interesting read, would be curious to hear your thoughts on his analysis, especially considering he arrived at a different recommendation as to what you recommend (although not by much, more so the potential upper limit). Seems like the horse isn't dead enough yet. Thank you!
I superset reverse curls with a big compound on leg days (hack squat, rdl whatever I am doing first) to supplement all the bicep work on pull day. helps with forearms too. easy way to throw in some easy arm volume and no extra time in gym
number 3. well thats doesnt count for me, i stoped training my biceps for years, but increased my total set with pullups and rows. after all these years my arms shrinked from 41-42cm to 37cm. 2 months back i started doing curls again and now my arms are already back to 39.5cm. when i do rows i can relax my biceps like 100%
Yeeeah, I don't believe this myself either. I think the study was on untrained people. My biceps are rarely sore after back day, but after arm day I usually feel it a lot more. There's most likely a lot of value in direct bicep work for intermediate/advanced lifters.
Yeh, if 2RIR or less is optimal for muscle growth, they could only be as effective if your biceps get close to failure, which for me at least they don't, not even close.
Yeah. I can see my clients using the biceps too much in their back training, after i have given some advice it looks better and they say they get tired in the back first, before my advices they got tired in their arms first. Even some advanced lifters just crank they weights with sloppy form and u can see their biceps work, but when I train my back i wanna focus on my back
Well try weighted pullups and tell if your biceps are sore instead of rows. If you row heavy you can't simply pull your elbows to your pockets and grip the bar hard so it does work your biceps just not as curls or pull-ups
To your point, the worse someone's technique is for back exercises (when they fail to lead with their elbows), the more of a bicep workout they will get from those pulling exercises.
So a reverse curl vs a standard barbell curl should be no different in terms of bicep growth? Idk i can buy it for hammer curls maybe but reverse curls just feel worse for biceps
Menno, do you think close (i.e. shoulder width or less), underhand grip compound back exercises with elbows kept tight to the torso and where the resistance is from an implement in your hands (i.e. bar, cable, dumbbell, machine, etc... but not bodyweight exercises) actually stimulate the biceps meaningfully for growth in more intermediate/advanced lifters? All studies I've seen seem to always use untrained lifters (who will probably grow measurably from almost any elbow flexor stimulus even if that same stimulus may not grow a more advanced lifter) and/or involve compound exercises with more elbow flare. For example, in an underhand, shoulder-width grip vertical cable pulldown, isn't the cable mostly pulling straight up and parallel to the forearms resulting in minimal resistance on the elbow flexors while performing flexion? Note: this is different than a slightly wider or overhand grip pulldown where the arm typically rotates and the elbows flare out a bit which results in the horizontal forces from the biceps assisting in the movement as described in this video (i.e. the direction of elbow flexion if your hands could move is in line with the pulling movement and opposite of the resistance). If the elbows are pointing straight forward as is typical with underhand grip at shoulder width, the elbow flexion motion would mainly be moving the forearm/hand front to back and not provide much horizontal force inward into the bar/implement or vertical force downward to assist in the pulling. Yes, there is a minor contribution from the elbow flexors since the hand technically arcs slightly and the elbow flexion motion is not purely horizontal, but it seems like it wouldn't be enough to stimulate growth in advanced trainees. Additionally, if at no point the cable is farther away horizontally from your body compared to your hands, the cable seems like it would actually be pulling your hand upward and slightly back inward towards your body at many points in the movement as your arm moves in an arc fashion and the elbow gets farther from the body horizontally, this seems like it would actually assist in elbow flexion rather than resist it. Leaning back slightly may mitigate this somewhat though as the lean may make the cable slightly less vertical and place the hands closer horizontally relative to the cable's distance from your body thus providing some resistance pulling the hand/forearm away from the body which would work the biceps regardless of elbow flare. Really curious on your thoughts since I often hear people mentioning to use underhand grip during back exercise to target the biceps more!
What's with the new study from Milo wolf that showed that lengthened partials are not more hypertrophic in trained people? Because the studies before we're done on newbies
Love this content Menno - just a question, with the fixed implement for a pull down, much of the force production (I suspect) is isometric on nature - have any further data been developed on the hypertrophic stimulus of isometrics. I do know there is evidence of strength gains, but I'm unaware of anything to do with hypertrophy.
Hey Menno! Would you ever be interested in maybe discussing resistance training for the goals of developing muscles to be as fast and as powerful as possible? Or does maximising strength for a given muscle size already accomplish this?
Do compounds involving biceps count more towards total bicep sets than compounds involving triceps count towards total tricep sets? If so should the number of isolation work for triceps be higher than for biceps generally? How much higher?
Yes actually. Because triceps are trained pretty badly by pressing. So you're best off adding overhead extensions and skull crushers. Biceps don't really have this problem. But how much volume? Up to you.
@gracefool Menno, Schoenfeld, Sumiaki et al., etc. The bicep is trained so long as there is elbow flexion. The triceps' 3 heads, particularly the long head, are not trained well simply because there is elbow extension. They're trained, just pretty poorly.
So side question, when you pulled up the pic of the woman doing the pull-up. What are your thoughts regarding the difference between her shoulders? Is that a bio mechanical issue?
It would be interesting to see a comparison isolating the difference between a supinated and pronated grip on hypertrophy when controlling for volume and proximity to failure. I do find it hard to believe that pronated would be much more superior than supinated when the beneficial lengthening is what, several millimeters longer?
Can we appreciate Meno more.. always on point, always accurate and quick to the point while super easy to understand. Just google the man and read every literature by him that u can read its addicting! PS: WTF is going on HERE 08:08 o.O i know ppl have differences between their left and right side of the body but what the actual fok 😂
No it's f'ing not a myth! Stop following misinformation on the internet. You are correct and HE doesn't understand functional anatomy. At all. Whatsoever. I debunked his chin up video.
I don't think this video is about growing your biceps in pulldowns or pullups. It's about counting from those exercise towards your total daily/weekly bicep volumes because the studies and Menno talent at drawing with paint shows there is bicep recruitment and we should take note.
6:45 there definitely is a moment arm at the elbow though? The weight (your body) is not hanging directly under the elbow. The force from the biceps is actually probably maximized at that angle
No, you're actually correct and he's full of misinformation so give yourself a pat on the back and back yourself for once in your life. Stop listening to these people on the internet. You're better than that. You've clearly got a brain so use it. And I already debunked his chin up vid so don't even pay attention to this guy. Joe.
I like the take-home points, it's a good way to wrap up the video. Regarding myth #1, isn't it safe to assume that there will likely be other limiting muscles if you use a neutral or pronated grip to train the biceps, thus making the supinated grip a more efficient option since it's easier to assure the biceps are the limiting factor in the exercise?
You supinate because you have more than one head on your bicep and this helps target both heads. If you don't, then you risk under developing your inner bicep head and tearing it. Like I did. Any decent physio therapist would have words with you on your thought in this video.
Many trainers and coaches don't understand the 'overlap' effect of indirect exercises. So doing 20 sets for back also indirectly affects your biceps and to add 20 sets of direct biceps work will constitute 'overtraining'. If you're not seeing results in your gains cut your training volume.
The supination thing has always confused me. Biceps aid in supination, so why would pre-supinating them activate them more? It nullifies one of their functions, it should activate them LESS.
It should not activate them less. What should and does activate them less is pronating your wrist. Your quad doesn’t activate more when your hamstring is flexed so same thing applies to biceps when it comes to their role in supination
Look, stop following or allowing yourself to get influenced by numptys on the internet. He doesn't understand functional anatomy at all. And I debunked his chin up vid. If he told you to jump off a cliff, would you? PS: You're going down the correct lines with your comment, by the way, so stop filling your head with other people's nonsense and believe in yourself. Joe.
this video contains alot of wrong information in a pretty package and reading through some of the comments it feels very bad too see it help people stick to suboptimal training practices through confirmation bias... : (
Tell me about it. I have no idea why so many people listen to Menno he's a numpty. There's so many misinformation points in this video it'll take me 45 mins to correct it all.
He has some very logical takes and offers a lot of valuable nuance occasionally but then he also comes out with these extremely contrarian videos that rely on extremely iffy literature and go against decades of practical experience and just common lifting sense lol
I think his point was that on curl variations, supination is not better. Pullups are different - pronated pull-ups use lots of back and some biceps, whereas with chinups (supinated) there is more bicep involvement and slightly less back.
@@eddiegrant58 Menno is a numpty why are you listening to randoms on the internet? PS there's so much misinfo in this video it'd take me 45 mins to clear it all up.
Every great bodybuilder trained biceps with traditional supinated grip curls. It amazes me how many ppl are on RUclips attempting to sound smart by rewriting exercise science
You may be correct on the biomechanics on the pull-up, but I couldn’t focus enough to tell. The way you deconstructed those force vectors made my engineering brain scream.
its not though, this video contains alot of wrong information in a pretty package and it feels very bad too see it help people stick to suboptimal training practices through confirmation bias... :(
Although these videos are of amazing quality, i would like to see less confidence on some of the claims which are hotly debated or have lacking evidence. I understand it's Menno's opinion, strong opinion even, but it would be fairer for the audience to adress any sense of skepticism around some claims. Generally a big fan. I just think less confidence would at times be more evidence based
My elbows developed tendonitis because they can't take the stress of supinated grips, I'm basically forced to train biceps only with hammer grips - no exception. This excludes like 80% of bicep exercises. Good news if this doesn't impact hypertrophy that negatively.
No, you didn't develop elbow tendinitis from doing supinated curls. That's not how that injury mechanism for lateral and medial epicondylosis works. And I'm an expert in musculoskeletal rehab. And it's tendinosis not tendin'itis. And stop following misinfo on the internet. And I debunked his chin up vid.
you can still train your biceps in supinated hand position, just find a curl that you can perform without pain. Like drag curls, or any biceps curl that reduces the range of motion that don't make you sore. I am fortunate to be recovering from tennis elbow and am still performing bicep curls with modifications that prevent pain.
I have 18" arms at 45 and im natty. Alternate dumbbell curls and pullups. These studies and fitness content on studies is essentially convoluted slop that makes something simple more complex that what it is. The end.
Bone size and structure, initial muscle size/volume, muscle insertions and overall genetics influencing the hypertrophic potential of an individual are all different for different people. What you achieve or fail to achieve is not only due to exercise selection and how well or badly your workout program is structured. In large part the extent of muscular hypertrophy reached by someone depends on a set of preexisting parameters. Virtually ALL top ranking bodybuilders have a superior set of skeletal, muscular, connective tissue and even psychological parameters compared to the general population.
Well studies is a word that means that instead of having only your opinion about your specific situation, scientist measure hundreds of people results in a refutable way. If they are wrong, the world "this is how I do" is 100% free to demonstrate it. Studies are proven wrong everyday. That's how science progress.
@@guillaume4519 Science is science. But making something as simple as lifting overly complex is goofy. A Highschool football coach with a GED can teach someone all they need to know with zero meta-analysis study slop. Fitness content has become a PhD circus.
Just like any sport. If you have good genetics, you will be good regardless of the training. But if the training is improved you will be a better version of yourself. For example who's training is better a guy that went from 10.9 to 10.1 in the 100m or the guy that is faster but went from 10.1 to 10.0. You can argue that the slower guy had better training
@@Sonic_1000 nobody is saying lifting is complex. The question is: how can I do a little better. Go from 80~90 and try to reach 100%. You highschool coach, what kind of knowledge do you think he learned during his GED?
The Zottman bicep curl is definitely one of my favourites, and seldom seen at my gym, to get the grip variety for the biceps. I’m going to try them on a declined bench next time!
The hand isn't moving, it's in equilibrium. So there's no point drawing the forces from the hand as they are counteracted by the forces in the bar. To consider the moment or torque at the joint use the muscle force line of action and the perpendicular distance from the joint. The problem occurs when you realise that there are two joints in the bicep; at the shoulder is lengthening while the bicep at the elbow is shortening. Still, both of these torques will only partially cancel each other out.
This new take on myth #3 is the biggest croc of shite in the world. The only reason to count your compound movements as biceps sets is to do less isolation sets. If that's your goal, go for it and do less. But why? Do your chinups AND all your curls. Log your chinups as chinups, not biceps movement #1 or 3 or whatever. We've always known a lot of back work uses the biceps. We didn't need a study to tell us that, and we've always done our curls anyways. But this dumb study came out and bow everyone wants us to log exercises into split body parts. Just log the dang excercises. Are you really going to do two sets less of curls because, oh shit my four sets of neutral grip pulldowns counted as two sets of biceps? No. If you do, kinda wimpy ain'tchya?
If you give someone completely untrained zero cues other than just “pull-up” or “pull-down”, sure they might get some decent bicep gains. But for any advanced lifter with decent proprioception, there is absolutely no way your getting even close to the same bicep gains. Moreover, it’s absurd to make claims that certain exercises hit x muscle just as well as isolations, as a well trained bodybuilder can make seemingly minor mechanical alterations that will completely change what muscle group an exercise targets.
Blah blah blah, everyone I know with huge arms just curled barbells and dumbells and had the genes for them to grow… that’s it, the rest is waffle, just do what you enjoy doing ffs
I disagree with #3. 5:08 that argument is dumb btw. Planches are a good biceps exercise and gymnasts do those. Their biceps doesn't come from chin-ups.
@@gracefool That's not really my point. Gymnasts also often wear tight clothes. So does wearing tight clothes make your biceps grow? You can't build an argument like that. Correlation does not imply causation.
@@bultvidxxxix9973 I agree that their straight-arm work is great for biceps. But if you ask them what they do for biceps, they'll answer ring pullups. Both of them contribute significantly, and they keep doing the bent arm stuff for a reason.
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Oh dang, straight into the info. No intro, no nonsense, no wasting time. Love it. Subbed.
I dunno about this Menno. Sure, maybe the bicep is lengthened more using a neutral or pronated grip, but when you go to failure using reverse curls or hammer curls, it's not really the bicep that is the limiting factor is it? It's the Brachioradialis and the brachialis that are the limiting factors in those exercises because they have the best leverage, right? Unless you are saying that the bicep being lengthened/stretched is more beneficial than actually taking a muscle to failure, I'm not so sure about this.
EDIT: I may perhaps have used the term "limiting factor" inaccurately in its technical definition, so please scroll down under the replies to this comment where I clarify what I meant with my use of the term.
Solution: do all types of curls during your lifting career
@@sunttu333, I do supinated traditional curls, hammer curls and reverse curls. Hit biceps, brachialis and brachioradialis.
You don’t understand limiting factors. I haven’t even watched this video yet so I’m not defending menno, but when there is a single joint there can’t be a limiting factor between the forces acting on that joint. Like in a freeweight squat, there can be a limiting factor between the knee force and hip force, but in a leg press, there is no limiting factor between the 2 because their movement is jointed due to the fixed path of the machine
He seemingly lacks the knowledge of how sarcomerogenesis (stretch mediated growth) will increase the length of sarcomeres until they are so long in series that further sarcomerogenesis is impossible, which is why stretch mediated growth (and I say growth because it’s muscle growth but technically not hypertrophy as Chris Beardsley elucidated) is a self limiting prophecy and can only occur for a set time (think 3-6 months) until the benefits inherently stop more benefits from occurring
This basically means that stretch will promote more growth for a very small set period and once those benefits are achieve sarcomerogenesis which is the mechanism by whites stretch mediated growth occurs will become impossible in that muscle.
Love your work Menno. I think one thing that is overlooked in the claims you make is the role of the lifter in the distribution of force among different muscle groups while performing compound exercises. Keep up the good work!
2:08 I'm sorry, but I don't get the correlation between grip *width* and wrist position. You're making it sound like "since grip position doesn't affect biceps recruitment, then you can use any wrist position you want". More importantly, you didn't address the crucial concern raised by the supination argument: the biceps start already shortened, that is correct, but this also allows them to fully contract and contribute to the lift. A more pronated grip prevents the biceps from contracting and it should, in theory, shift the load to the other elbow flexors, recruiting the brachialis and brachioradialis more. In contrast, rotating the wrist from pronation/neutral into supination while curling could be better, to both reach the full stretch and still have the biceps greatly contribute to the entirety of the lift.
Also using different grips may make other muscles the limiting factors in a movement preventing you from taking your biceps to failure, this isnt a big deal if youre a beginner but te more advanced you get the more you need that extra intensity to grow.
Grip width determines wrist position. A narrow grip pull up puts your forearm in a pronated position, a wide grip pull up puts it in a neutral position. With neutral grip pull ups you go from neutral (narrow) to slight supination (wide). And with chin ups you get varying degrees of supination.
Amen
Yeah. I do a mix of machine preacher curls, standing neutral-to-supinated grip DB curls and occasionally mix in incline DB curls. All 3 are solid variations for me and they all feel good.
It's really motivational stuff to see when other people admire your body and hard work. That's what made me to start my transformation about a year ago. Firstly I got a meal plan from Onlymeal and started doing some exercises at home. My friends and family were making fun of me, thinking I will give up. But day after day, meal after meal, I managed to do it. I lost 120lbs thanks to my diet and dedication, and I am feeling a lot happier now. I am finally ready to start living my life to the fullest.
Furthermore, how many times have we seen biceps tears on an exercise with pronated forearm? I, personally, have only ever seen biceps tears on exercises with supinated grip, including deadlifts, chinups, straight bar curls, etc, which suggests to me that these movements put far more tension on the biceps than a pronated or neutral grip does, and we know that tension is a big driving factor in muscle growth. Nobody fails reverse curls due to biceps fatigue, or hammer curls for the same. These curls just do not stress or even use the biceps as much as actively supinating during a curl, or using fixed supinated grip. Science shows one thing, but real world experience shows another. There's a reason why people who skip arms while claiming compounds work arms have smaller arms than people who include isolations.
It depends on how you define the stimulation. It can be high volume too. People can't use huge weights with weird hands position in the first place.
Yeah, I was thinking the same... Simply placing your arm to your side in a relaxed position with hand neutral or in pronation kind of shows how the thought process here is a bit off... In this position, the bicep is not stretched but rather just relaxed...that's why it feels so normal to do. But keeping your arm in the same place and supinating the wrist immediately feels less comfortable and has more tension. Not because the bicep is "flexed", but simply because it's engaged, or perhaps trying to flex while in a stretched position (tension) to be more accurate. That tension even goes down a bit as you raise your arm from the elbow as in a regular curl, because there's less tension on the bicep here in mid-flexion than when down to your side. I love you, Menno, but your argument on # 1 really doesn't hold up very well.
Length is a driving factor too pronated grip = more lengthed biceps
@@NaturalBloom7 as you can see this is already taken into consideration by all the 3 messages, whatever the one you are responding to :)
@@guillaume4519 Thank you
study you linked: ''Twenty-nine young men, without prior resistance training experience''
that makes me doubt pulldown bicep growth
That his hilarious. Especially considering noobs have oftentimes trouble leaving the bicep out of back movements, so they are stimulating it because they do it wrong.
@@smebbo6435
there is no leaving the biceps out of back training.
imagine trying to leave triceps out of pressing.
You can't leave, but still you can use proper form to limit it.
Believe me lat pulldown does not build biceps that good😂
Yup!
Especially with a closer or underhand grip which puts the elbows pointing straight forward with no flare since now the flexion motion would mainly move your hands front to back (which can move the bar/implement since it's not fixed in this plane) with very minimal vertical contribution to the direction of pull.
I also haven't seen any studies on trained lifters comparing compound back exercises to elbow flexor isolation exercises.
So while I think the biceps are still involved, it may not be enough stimulus for more intermediate-advanced lifters to actually grow them anymore compared to beginners.
Although often times more advanced trainees simply grow less from the same intervention so it's totally possible everyone grows from it just overall it's much harder to grow muscle as you get more advanced.
I have been doing this for many years. 3 sets of supinated grip, 3 sets of neutral grip, and 3 sets of pronated grip. Not only does hypertrophy of the brachialis “push up” the bicep muscle making it appear more full, but having juicy brachioradialis muscles, just makes your arms look cool.
Its not as if only supinated grip exercises target the biceps, so its not like you are neglecting them. Try this out for a few months. Arms always feel pumped.
I’m going to push back on this because, to my knowledge, there haven’t been any studies directly comparing long-length training to higher intensity training (whether in terms of load or time under tension).
As you’ve noted, the biceps achieve greater leverage in a supinated grip, allowing for heavier loads and more reps (or longer time under tension).
Given this, I find it unlikely that training with a lower load and/or fewer reps-but achieving a greater stretch due to a pronated or neutral grip-would be more effective for promoting growth than using higher loads and/or more reps with a supinated grip.
I already do reverse curls for my forearms, but would never dream of treating them like a true biceps exercise. Even when I destroy my biceps, I can still do sets of reverse curls without the biceps giving out. They do very little work.
It’s surprising how underrated the book You Are Stronger Than You Think from Cryptic Lore is. It covers everything from mental toughness to boosting testosterone naturally
As an armwrestler who trains almost exclusively neutral and pronated curl variations (as well as training back with the same grips) I can assure you that for SEVERAL YEARS my biceps saw extremely little if not zero growth, while I assumed they would grow from all the elbow flexion. However, it was only when I started including dumbbell supinating curls and EZ bar curls that my biceps actually started growing. So there's an individual case study of considerable duration that shows, for me at least, that the forearms work more than the biceps when not using a supinated/supinating grip on curls.
You must not have watched up to the part where he said you could probably see more growth by using a variety of grips, did you?
The forearm may be the limiting factor?
You're right and Mennoo doesn't understand functional anatomy. The biceps is THE primary elbow supinator. I suggest you all stop following random numptys on the internet and get a life. Or follow someone who talks sense?
Thank you very much for this video, Menno! This helps alot in understanding that compound exercises have always been kings, and non-fitness enthusiasts can go a long way with full body workouts with calisthenics and don't have to add isolations to save time.
Thank God Menno, I got a lot of shit for disagreeing on a RP short a few days ago where mike said Hammer curls are almost always useless and supinated Is better everytime.
But I would disagree with pronated curls being a good option as usually Is the grip which Is limiting.
A lot of people seem to think Mike Israetel is infallible, and would never question anything he says. They are mistaken.
It is ironic that Mike would think hammer curls are useless, when despite his gear usage, people who extensively do hammer curls without the use of steroids have better arms than him.
If your grip is the limiting factor you need a stronger grip.
@@smebbo6435and how do u get that
@@smgonlykrownz9416 deadhangs and not using straps on pulls
he’s a big fan of versa gripps for limiting this effect. maybe that’s why?
10:26 'elbow should be at your side or behind'. I get the point here is to train the bicep at the shoulder (which is why Dr. Mike likes the lying bench bicep curl), but I still feel like the Preacher Curl is superior. I feel a more massive stimulus due to the fact that there is a normal force (the pad that supports the arm) which allows for better feeling of isolation. I've seen your knee supported curl where you lean back on the eccentric, but it still can't beat the pad of the preacher. Any direct bicep isolation move I feel best when there is a direct support just under the elbow (not any further, or else the eccentric portion gets capped).
Feeling a muscle doesn't correlate with hypertrophy or even the stimulus the muscle is getting. Most people would argue that you feel most muscles the most when they are in their shortened position, which is the least needed range of motion for hypertrophy.
That being said, preacher curls are still great, because you have the benefit of actually making it a lot easier to load them in a lengthened position (even if not fully lengthened due to the shoulder joint), while with laying/incline dumbbell curls you usually run. into the problem of not having a lot of load at the most lengthened position (or too much load on your front dents if you keep your arms up).
@@LucaBl Your error is assuming that I am talking about the concentric portion. I was talking about the eccentric, or lengthened portion of the move, which works best when there is an opposing force (the pad), rather than relying on gravity solely.
@@SteveJonesOwnsDSP no, I understand what you are saying. I was just saying, that feeling a muscle doesn't mean anything.
Like for example I feel my quads like hell with a leg extension and way less with a reverse nordic or a sissy squat, while both of those are more growth promoting for sure.
I do agree with your point even, that's what I was saying with second paragraph.
Preacher curls done with a nautilus curl machine or whatever they are called are the best. My current shitty gym doesn't have those but I was visting a different city for a month and the gym there had it. I felt my biceps like never before and I think I have gotten real growth. It even increased the number of chinups I can do!
You’re right and should not take value out of these DYEL researchers that have a abstract and absolute narrow minded view on exercise science.
this is the problem with taking study conclusions completely out of their context and then making inferences
Exactly
Love the Bob Ross reference!
I can do 22 hammer curls with 60 lb dumbbells. If I go to form failure on the hammer curls and then immediately drop the weight to 20 lb, I can follow-up with about 8 fully supinated curls before hitting form failure again. I take this as evidence that the hammer curls really nailed my biceps, which would tend to support Menno’s argument. Also, I think that there is some EMG evidence that hammer curls stimulate the brachialis and the long head of the biceps about equally.
Re: grip. Nippard recently showed a cable curl with the arms up HIGH and far behind you and it's a top tier movement for sure.
The Thumbnail is amazing!
Rings in a support hold, chinups, and stiff armed dumbbell raises for me. I haven't done curls in years.
If supination shorten bicep, why do powerlifters tend to tear their bicep when using supinated grip on deadlifts?
Probably because they straighten that arm a mm or more less then the other arm.
Beasue the bicep is shortened and it's trying to be stretched.
Like imagine having a long rubber band and a short rubber band, the shorter one will snap faster if you pull. The longer band can be stretched further before snapping.
Hope that makes sense.
Maybe because the tendon at elbow is stretched when the bicep shortens
It’s straight they do not curl the bar in deadlifts
do me a favor, put your arm out on your desk and then rotate your hand to a supinated grip. watch the bicep get "sucked up towards your shoulder" think of it in terms of a rubber band, long ones will stretch further, shorter ones don't. Its why tearing occurs more often will supinated because you are trying to get it to stretch beyond what's allowed while you have a shortened bicep.
Unrelated to this video, but would you consider doing a video concerning Greg Nuckols' new article regarding recommendations for protein requirements?
It was a very in depth and interesting read, would be curious to hear your thoughts on his analysis, especially considering he arrived at a different recommendation as to what you recommend (although not by much, more so the potential upper limit).
Seems like the horse isn't dead enough yet.
Thank you!
I superset reverse curls with a big compound on leg days (hack squat, rdl whatever I am doing first) to supplement all the bicep work on pull day. helps with forearms too. easy way to throw in some easy arm volume and no extra time in gym
number 3. well thats doesnt count for me, i stoped training my biceps for years, but increased my total set with pullups and rows. after all these years my arms shrinked from 41-42cm to 37cm. 2 months back i started doing curls again and now my arms are already back to 39.5cm. when i do rows i can relax my biceps like 100%
Yeeeah, I don't believe this myself either. I think the study was on untrained people. My biceps are rarely sore after back day, but after arm day I usually feel it a lot more. There's most likely a lot of value in direct bicep work for intermediate/advanced lifters.
Yeh, if 2RIR or less is optimal for muscle growth, they could only be as effective if your biceps get close to failure, which for me at least they don't, not even close.
Yeah. I can see my clients using the biceps too much in their back training, after i have given some advice it looks better and they say they get tired in the back first, before my advices they got tired in their arms first. Even some advanced lifters just crank they weights with sloppy form and u can see their biceps work, but when I train my back i wanna focus on my back
Agreed. His advice sometimes seems like he’s trying to be contrarian for the sake of sticking out or something
Well try weighted pullups and tell if your biceps are sore instead of rows. If you row heavy you can't simply pull your elbows to your pockets and grip the bar hard so it does work your biceps just not as curls or pull-ups
To your point, the worse someone's technique is for back exercises (when they fail to lead with their elbows), the more of a bicep workout they will get from those pulling exercises.
So a reverse curl vs a standard barbell curl should be no different in terms of bicep growth? Idk i can buy it for hammer curls maybe but reverse curls just feel worse for biceps
Menno is one of the best channels on YT! Keep up the good work
Menno, do you think close (i.e. shoulder width or less), underhand grip compound back exercises with elbows kept tight to the torso and where the resistance is from an implement in your hands (i.e. bar, cable, dumbbell, machine, etc... but not bodyweight exercises) actually stimulate the biceps meaningfully for growth in more intermediate/advanced lifters?
All studies I've seen seem to always use untrained lifters (who will probably grow measurably from almost any elbow flexor stimulus even if that same stimulus may not grow a more advanced lifter) and/or involve compound exercises with more elbow flare.
For example, in an underhand, shoulder-width grip vertical cable pulldown, isn't the cable mostly pulling straight up and parallel to the forearms resulting in minimal resistance on the elbow flexors while performing flexion?
Note: this is different than a slightly wider or overhand grip pulldown where the arm typically rotates and the elbows flare out a bit which results in the horizontal forces from the biceps assisting in the movement as described in this video (i.e. the direction of elbow flexion if your hands could move is in line with the pulling movement and opposite of the resistance).
If the elbows are pointing straight forward as is typical with underhand grip at shoulder width, the elbow flexion motion would mainly be moving the forearm/hand front to back and not provide much horizontal force inward into the bar/implement or vertical force downward to assist in the pulling.
Yes, there is a minor contribution from the elbow flexors since the hand technically arcs slightly and the elbow flexion motion is not purely horizontal, but it seems like it wouldn't be enough to stimulate growth in advanced trainees.
Additionally, if at no point the cable is farther away horizontally from your body compared to your hands, the cable seems like it would actually be pulling your hand upward and slightly back inward towards your body at many points in the movement as your arm moves in an arc fashion and the elbow gets farther from the body horizontally, this seems like it would actually assist in elbow flexion rather than resist it.
Leaning back slightly may mitigate this somewhat though as the lean may make the cable slightly less vertical and place the hands closer horizontally relative to the cable's distance from your body thus providing some resistance pulling the hand/forearm away from the body which would work the biceps regardless of elbow flare.
Really curious on your thoughts since I often hear people mentioning to use underhand grip during back exercise to target the biceps more!
What's with the new study from Milo wolf that showed that lengthened partials are not more hypertrophic in trained people? Because the studies before we're done on newbies
Love this content Menno - just a question, with the fixed implement for a pull down, much of the force production (I suspect) is isometric on nature - have any further data been developed on the hypertrophic stimulus of isometrics. I do know there is evidence of strength gains, but I'm unaware of anything to do with hypertrophy.
It isnt isometric because as you pull bar down, your elbow angle closes.
Hey Menno! Would you ever be interested in maybe discussing resistance training for the goals of developing muscles to be as fast and as powerful as possible?
Or does maximising strength for a given muscle size already accomplish this?
Thank you Menno for getting right into the content with no fluff 🙌🏼
Yes and extra points for the Bob Ross cameo haha
Do compounds involving biceps count more towards total bicep sets than compounds involving triceps count towards total tricep sets? If so should the number of isolation work for triceps be higher than for biceps generally? How much higher?
Yes actually. Because triceps are trained pretty badly by pressing. So you're best off adding overhead extensions and skull crushers. Biceps don't really have this problem. But how much volume? Up to you.
@@jamesgazeley Who says they're trained badly by pressing? I'd expect something similar as for biceps, perhaps not quite as good but not far off.
@gracefool Menno, Schoenfeld, Sumiaki et al., etc. The bicep is trained so long as there is elbow flexion. The triceps' 3 heads, particularly the long head, are not trained well simply because there is elbow extension. They're trained, just pretty poorly.
So side question, when you pulled up the pic of the woman doing the pull-up. What are your thoughts regarding the difference between her shoulders? Is that a bio mechanical issue?
It would be interesting to see a comparison isolating the difference between a supinated and pronated grip on hypertrophy when controlling for volume and proximity to failure. I do find it hard to believe that pronated would be much more superior than supinated when the beneficial lengthening is what, several millimeters longer?
@menno Is there any evidence that smaller muscles really need less time to recover between sessions? Or Is It broscience?
Can we appreciate Meno more.. always on point, always accurate and quick to the point while super easy to understand.
Just google the man and read every literature by him that u can read its addicting!
PS: WTF is going on HERE 08:08 o.O i know ppl have differences between their left and right side of the body but what the actual fok 😂
So it's a myth that neutral grip trains more your brachialis and supinated trains more the biceps?
No it's f'ing not a myth! Stop following misinformation on the internet. You are correct and HE doesn't understand functional anatomy. At all. Whatsoever. I debunked his chin up video.
what if your forearms are overpowering your biceps, should you still not care and use hammer grip to train biceps?
I don't think this video is about growing your biceps in pulldowns or pullups. It's about counting from those exercise towards your total daily/weekly bicep volumes because the studies and Menno talent at drawing with paint shows there is bicep recruitment and we should take note.
6:45 there definitely is a moment arm at the elbow though? The weight (your body) is not hanging directly under the elbow. The force from the biceps is actually probably maximized at that angle
So Myth1 would suggest that a traditional supinated grip barbell curl is the least efficient/optimal for the bicepa VS reverse curls or hammer curls?
No, you're actually correct and he's full of misinformation so give yourself a pat on the back and back yourself for once in your life. Stop listening to these people on the internet. You're better than that. You've clearly got a brain so use it. And I already debunked his chin up vid so don't even pay attention to this guy. Joe.
ty for your work! greats from Russia
🇺🇦 🇺🇦 🇺🇦
I like the take-home points, it's a good way to wrap up the video. Regarding myth #1, isn't it safe to assume that there will likely be other limiting muscles if you use a neutral or pronated grip to train the biceps, thus making the supinated grip a more efficient option since it's easier to assure the biceps are the limiting factor in the exercise?
You supinate because you have more than one head on your bicep and this helps target both heads. If you don't, then you risk under developing your inner bicep head and tearing it. Like I did. Any decent physio therapist would have words with you on your thought in this video.
Many trainers and coaches don't understand the 'overlap' effect of indirect exercises. So doing 20 sets for back also indirectly affects your biceps and to add 20 sets of direct biceps work will constitute 'overtraining'. If you're not seeing results in your gains cut your training volume.
Menno was the only one who managed to save me from never doing hammer curls
I'll try some pronated grip curls with a lighter weight, see how it goes.
Maybe a Bayesian reverse curl using a D-handle might be an option.
I'm gonna try a set after doing some regular Bayesian curls tonight
You'll feel it all in your forearms and literally nothing in your biceps.
Menno: what are some good neutral or pronated grip movements for biceps, then? NG Bayesian Curl, perhaps?
How to have huge forearms?
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"
Why would you use. Thumbnail picture that completely conceals the biceps from view?
The best way to get big biceps is to get big triceps and make the arm bigger
Making the triceps bigger will just further show how small ur biceps are
The supination thing has always confused me. Biceps aid in supination, so why would pre-supinating them activate them more? It nullifies one of their functions, it should activate them LESS.
It should not activate them less. What should and does activate them less is pronating your wrist. Your quad doesn’t activate more when your hamstring is flexed so same thing applies to biceps when it comes to their role in supination
Look, stop following or allowing yourself to get influenced by numptys on the internet. He doesn't understand functional anatomy at all. And I debunked his chin up vid. If he told you to jump off a cliff, would you? PS: You're going down the correct lines with your comment, by the way, so stop filling your head with other people's nonsense and believe in yourself. Joe.
I appreciate the biomechanics explanation, had a little eureka there.
No, you didn't because it was total misinformation. And I already debunked his chin up vid.
This science based lifting meta is on its last legs. I can’t wait for it to be over
this video contains alot of wrong information in a pretty package and reading through some of the comments it feels very bad too see it help people stick to suboptimal training practices through confirmation bias... : (
Seems to me like there’s a bit too much overthinking here
Reverse curls back on the menu?
Not if you want to train your biceps. The weight you can use is less than a suppinated bicep curl and the forearms are likely to give out first.
You propably wanna do them for the forearms anyway
This has to be one of the dumbest “science based” videos I’ve ever seen
Tell me about it. I have no idea why so many people listen to Menno he's a numpty. There's so many misinformation points in this video it'll take me 45 mins to correct it all.
He has some very logical takes and offers a lot of valuable nuance occasionally but then he also comes out with these extremely contrarian videos that rely on extremely iffy literature and go against decades of practical experience and just common lifting sense lol
you said supination is not better for biceps but then you said chin-ups are especially good for biceps even compared to pull-ups 🤔
Maybe because In pullups the forearm (Brachioradialis) is more active, and in a chin up it can't really contribute and it's all biceps
I think his point was that on curl variations, supination is not better. Pullups are different - pronated pull-ups use lots of back and some biceps, whereas with chinups (supinated) there is more bicep involvement and slightly less back.
@@eddiegrant58 Menno is a numpty why are you listening to randoms on the internet? PS there's so much misinfo in this video it'd take me 45 mins to clear it all up.
GVS will debunk this
I already debunked his chin up video. Don't fall for this misinformation and he doesn't understand functional anatomy whatsoever.
Yeah that whole better to train the biceps outside of supination is complete nonsense.
Every great bodybuilder trained biceps with traditional supinated grip curls. It amazes me how many ppl are on RUclips attempting to sound smart by rewriting exercise science
6:52 .. more please .. also clip this for Dr. Mike
You may be correct on the biomechanics on the pull-up, but I couldn’t focus enough to tell. The way you deconstructed those force vectors made my engineering brain scream.
7:20 gahd dahm Hector can hold that position for a long time
🤣🤣🤣
10:25 was the answer as to why your biceps look the way they do... GENETICS!!!
Excellent, excellent, excellent...as usual. Good to know the science behind what I do with my guns is why it's working 😉.
its not though, this video contains alot of wrong information in a pretty package and it feels very bad too see it help people stick to suboptimal training practices through confirmation bias... :(
Although these videos are of amazing quality, i would like to see less confidence on some of the claims which are hotly debated or have lacking evidence. I understand it's Menno's opinion, strong opinion even, but it would be fairer for the audience to adress any sense of skepticism around some claims. Generally a big fan. I just think less confidence would at times be more evidence based
My elbows developed tendonitis because they can't take the stress of supinated grips, I'm basically forced to train biceps only with hammer grips - no exception. This excludes like 80% of bicep exercises. Good news if this doesn't impact hypertrophy that negatively.
No, you didn't develop elbow tendinitis from doing supinated curls. That's not how that injury mechanism for lateral and medial epicondylosis works. And I'm an expert in musculoskeletal rehab. And it's tendinosis not tendin'itis. And stop following misinfo on the internet. And I debunked his chin up vid.
you can still train your biceps in supinated hand position, just find a curl that you can perform without pain. Like drag curls, or any biceps curl that reduces the range of motion that don't make you sore. I am fortunate to be recovering from tennis elbow and am still performing bicep curls with modifications that prevent pain.
You won't train The bicep with fully pronated hand, to me it's hard to even get the muscle hard, very very little attivation imo
I have 18" arms at 45 and im natty. Alternate dumbbell curls and pullups. These studies and fitness content on studies is essentially convoluted slop that makes something simple more complex that what it is. The end.
Bone size and structure, initial muscle size/volume, muscle insertions and overall genetics influencing the hypertrophic potential of an individual are all different for different people. What you achieve or fail to achieve is not only due to exercise selection and how well or badly your workout program is structured. In large part the extent of muscular hypertrophy reached by someone depends on a set of preexisting parameters. Virtually ALL top ranking bodybuilders have a superior set of skeletal, muscular, connective tissue and even psychological parameters compared to the general population.
Well studies is a word that means that instead of having only your opinion about your specific situation, scientist measure hundreds of people results in a refutable way.
If they are wrong, the world "this is how I do" is 100% free to demonstrate it.
Studies are proven wrong everyday. That's how science progress.
@@guillaume4519 Science is science. But making something as simple as lifting overly complex is goofy. A Highschool football coach with a GED can teach someone all they need to know with zero meta-analysis study slop. Fitness content has become a PhD circus.
Just like any sport. If you have good genetics, you will be good regardless of the training. But if the training is improved you will be a better version of yourself. For example who's training is better a guy that went from 10.9 to 10.1 in the 100m or the guy that is faster but went from 10.1 to 10.0. You can argue that the slower guy had better training
@@Sonic_1000 nobody is saying lifting is complex.
The question is: how can I do a little better.
Go from 80~90 and try to reach 100%.
You highschool coach, what kind of knowledge do you think he learned during his GED?
I’ve never heard most of these myths
I almost never train biceps. I hate doing them. The only workout / muscle group that never feels enjoyable.
great
Oh man, Mike Israetel is going to disagree with the first one....
The Zottman bicep curl is definitely one of my favourites, and seldom seen at my gym, to get the grip variety for the biceps. I’m going to try them on a declined bench next time!
The hand isn't moving, it's in equilibrium. So there's no point drawing the forces from the hand as they are counteracted by the forces in the bar.
To consider the moment or torque at the joint use the muscle force line of action and the perpendicular distance from the joint.
The problem occurs when you realise that there are two joints in the bicep; at the shoulder is lengthening while the bicep at the elbow is shortening.
Still, both of these torques will only partially cancel each other out.
What's with this thumbnail where you're shirtless and holding a dog? It looks like a Tinder profile pic. xD
💪💪💪
This new take on myth #3 is the biggest croc of shite in the world. The only reason to count your compound movements as biceps sets is to do less isolation sets. If that's your goal, go for it and do less. But why? Do your chinups AND all your curls.
Log your chinups as chinups, not biceps movement #1 or 3 or whatever.
We've always known a lot of back work uses the biceps. We didn't need a study to tell us that, and we've always done our curls anyways. But this dumb study came out and bow everyone wants us to log exercises into split body parts. Just log the dang excercises. Are you really going to do two sets less of curls because, oh shit my four sets of neutral grip pulldowns counted as two sets of biceps? No. If you do, kinda wimpy ain'tchya?
Like a pronated bicep curl?
Never done that😅
If you give someone completely untrained zero cues other than just “pull-up” or “pull-down”, sure they might get some decent bicep gains. But for any advanced lifter with decent proprioception, there is absolutely no way your getting even close to the same bicep gains. Moreover, it’s absurd to make claims that certain exercises hit x muscle just as well as isolations, as a well trained bodybuilder can make seemingly minor mechanical alterations that will completely change what muscle group an exercise targets.
Wrong.
Blah blah blah, everyone I know with huge arms just curled barbells and dumbells and had the genes for them to grow… that’s it, the rest is waffle, just do what you enjoy doing ffs
Nah this vid is an L take
I disagree with #3. 5:08 that argument is dumb btw. Planches are a good biceps exercise and gymnasts do those. Their biceps doesn't come from chin-ups.
They do a lot of chinups, even though all their bent-arm work is preparatory rather than something they compete in.
@@gracefool That's not really my point. Gymnasts also often wear tight clothes. So does wearing tight clothes make your biceps grow? You can't build an argument like that. Correlation does not imply causation.
@@bultvidxxxix9973 I agree that their straight-arm work is great for biceps. But if you ask them what they do for biceps, they'll answer ring pullups. Both of them contribute significantly, and they keep doing the bent arm stuff for a reason.
Thumbnail kinda juicy
Ekshershises
Meno. Somebody is definitely gonna clip that. You know exactly what timestamp I'm referring to
Nice we have a tinder profile pic thumbnail