@The-SCG-Files west coast are the most profitable club in the afl and are worth more than most other clubs, obviously Collingwood has more fans but dropping your netball team for financial reasons dhows a lot.
100% agree - One of the most crucial factors is shifting away from the draft and introducing a transfer market so that lower league clubs can make a profit developing prospects. It would open up the entire system for this to work. Great vid.
Love how you've integrated this! I think the only major flaw is that it may be unrealistic for Tier 2 sides to travel for their interstate games assuming that the league doesn't have major financial backing. You could easily do it with a conference system akin to the NBA, though. You could go a Southeast Conference of Vic and Tassie, Northeast Conference of NSW and Queensland, and a Western Third Conference with SA, WA, and NT. It would be like the regional leagues in Tier 3, i.e., playing locally and having a national finals round, but within the one league. Alternatively you could have a hub system like we did during covid, but then I imagine that would have its own issues. Guess it would be up to the players/coaches in the league to decide whether they'd rather travel interstate every other week or spend 3/4 weeks away from home.
Yeah the conference system sounds like a cracking idea in tier 2, certainly would be more realistic to have it in place if there isn't enough money for national travel. Glad you enjoyed the video mate.
@@RilesMacca No wokkas there cobba, you've done really well on this one. And yeah, we have to keep the WA and SA teams in mind when it comes to travel!
Or get rid of tier two and put tiers 3&4 up one and The new tier 4 could be added when overseas teams join and if they win overseas then they get into tier 3 or something similar
I've been thinking this for years, as a huge fan of the English football tier system, but I've never been able to design a plan for a tiered AFL as you have in this video. Incredible work my man! As much as I would love to see this become a reality, I also agree that it would never happen in our lifetime because of the logistics. but, hey... a fan can dream, right?
Or they get relegated to their 4 and have to play in the VAFA. It would be amazing if the Fitzroy Football Club in the VAFA got promoted to the AFL if this system were put in place
That could work! But i'd rather make the AFL with 3 relegations to NAFL , and NAFL with 4, and Tier 4 would have 8 with relegations instead (Some regional teams would be adding a promotion playoffs depending of how many depending on the city). Great video BTW! IRYO on the system!
It'd be a cool idea but I think in countries like Australia and in North America where the competition is more between sports (e.g. NRL, A-League; NBA, NFL, NHL) than between clubs it's really hard to do where you're not in a country where the sport you're doing promo/reg in is the first, second, and third most popular sport.
That is a big factor indeed, of course the English pyramid includes 4 professional league when football (soccer) is the uncontested number 1 sport in England and the Premier league is one of the most (globally) watched leagues in the world. The Aussie rules participation (relative to population) doesn’t even come close to the football (soccer) participation in England and the sport isn’t even very popular some parts of the country.
The major problem with AFL and the second tier VFL is that many of the teams in VFL already have AFL teams. Back between the 1900s to 1999, there was the Under 19s, Reserves and Senior teams while the current VFL was originally the VFA back in the day. When the VFA became the current VFL in 2000s, many of the older VFA teams were struggling financially including Port Melbourne and Williamstown where they had to partner up with an AFL team to become a affiliation side. In recent years from 2015 onwards when Western Bulldogs revived their Footscray name for the VFL as their stand alone Reserves side. So if there was a Relegation/Promotion system then there will be a conflict if one of the stronger VFL teams ends up being promoted into the AFL where their Seniors side are. So while the VFL/AFL never had a relegation system with the VFA/VFL, they each had their own Under 19s, Reserves and Seniors teams to separate the pros and the rookies and those who never get a chance with the senior AFL side.
You have worked this out pretty thoroughly Miles and if it was ever implemented it would be pretty spectacular. Another thought would be a very much scaled down system. If you recall, the old VFA had two divisions and a system of relegation and promotion but only between the two divisions. It actually worked pretty well. I believe that 18 AFL teams is too many for any competition - a situation which is only going to get worse with the introduction of a team from Tassie. As such I would like to see a system along the lines of the old VFA for our AFL Admittedly it's nowhere near as grand as your proposal but it would stand a chance of being implemented. Most local Leagues already have such a system in place which seems to work okay and I can see no real reason why the AFL shouldn't do likewise.
Suggestion for a what if? What if the AFL introduced a conference system like that of the NFL, where teams would be divided into conferences, have separate conference play offs just like our current finals system, with the premiers of each division playing each other in national championship, representing each conference, with the ultimate winner being crowned as AFL Champions? I believe the best way of doing this would be four separate conferences, the Victorian Conference comprising of all Victorian teams, the South Australian Conference comprising teams from the former SANFL, the Western Conference, comprising of the former Western Australian Football League and the Northeastern League, comprising of teams from NT, NSW and QLD, since they would have less Footy teams due to their preference of rugby overall. Just a suggestion for a what if.
Yeah that sounds like a really good concept too. To make the numbers work, there might have to be only 2 conferences, with like the top 4 teams from each conference making finals.
What an awesome video from you Riles! Extremely well thought out and excellently put together. You’ve just got me incredibly hyped over an idea that will never happen. We can only dream such a change would become reality though. Like you said, it would make for such an exciting and enthralling new chapter in Australian Rules Football!
Well it could backfire enormously , people here are overenthusiastic. People should look at the English PL first and reflect if that is really such a great system.
Glad i didnt comment till the end. top quality video mate, think your right to say its not feasible at the moment but maybe in 80-100 years we will have the money, population and transport systems to have this work.
Great Video Riles, could be my favourite video on the whole of RUclips. Such an interesting concept, but of course, as mentioned there’s so many logistics. The stadium standard difference between the AFL and NAFL would be massive compared to the standard between the EPL and championship. If Coburg were promoted into the AFL, they’d be playing at Cobourg city Oval against 17 other teams who have fully seated stadiums. Also, do you think before a pyramid started lots of non-AFL clubs would have to get rebranded otherwise we could have Richmond, Werribee, Glenelg, Claremont, Albury, Wagga, Torquay, Noosa, Kingsboroh ect all being the Tigers all in the same league. To me the biggest fear of the system is traditional football states dominating and the sport dying in Gold Coast in western Sydney because they have no teams in the top professional league.
Small suggested change: 3 teams are promoted/relegated each year between tiers 2 and 3, and 2 promoted/relegated each year between tiers 1 and 2. A relegation playoff system like in the German Bundesliga also looks appealing
for this to work i think you would need to either reduce the number of teams in each league to about 14 or make the bottom 2, 3 or 4 teams in a league be relegated
This did almost happen at one point the VFA offered to become the second division of the VFL, but the VFL clubs refused the offer because they didn't want to have the risk of relegation.
Great video I’d prefer 2 up 2 down system. Say if you finish top of the league your guaranteed to go up. Then the teams below have a play off for the other spot. Then you could introduce a cup competition. Hence placing far more value on winning your league
Love the idea mate, I have always had the idea of a promotion/relegation in AFL since I love watching Soccer but I see one major problem with this system though. In think either the reserve league should have stand alone promotion/relegation or (the option I prefer) have no reserve league and instead just let all of the players in those teams go down. If the reserve league had standalone promotion/relegation it would help develop players more than for example the Carlton reserves winning by 200 points every game because they wont develop as well as if they were playing competition with players more to their level. But having no reserve league would mean 1.AFL teams have to balance having young players and starters in their list 2.Help the 2-4 tiers by being able to develop talent which would in turn make better players all the way through the system better 3.Make the AFL spend less money and time on a whole 2nd system and turn towards other things that are more useful (like a cup competition) If you read all of this, thank you and I hope to see more AFL content from you because these vids are high quality. Keep it up
Fantastic video mate this was awesome! as you stated in the video 1 of our biggest issue is just the population of the country, I feel the talent pool just isn't big enough to support something like this and sustain competition. But none the less would be very interesting!
I’ve often thought about this but it’s hard to not have Vic, SA and WA dominate the numbers. I considered you could have reserved spots for each state to ensure the Allies states are repped, and if the team in that spot doesn’t make finals they can be challenged by the highest place finisher from their state for the spot in their tier
Once Tasmania becomes the 19th AFL team in the new future and eventually a 20th team (hopefully a NT team, that’s what I’m hoping for), I could kinda see the AFL have conferences similar in style to the NFL. However, for this to work we would need to have 20 teams. The idea I’ve thought of would be 5 conferences consisting of 4 teams each. - Each conference would have at least 1 pair of rival teams (one would have Adel/Port, another would have WC/Freo, two would have Syd/GWS and one would have Bris/GC etc) - All teams would play their rivals and the other two teams in their pools twice during the year and every other team once for a 23 round season. There will still be a mid season bye - Finals will still be the top 8 and will be decided solely on the best record of the top 8 teams altogether, regardless of which pool they are in
These are the types of conversations we need to have about Aussie Rules and the AFL. We have the Premiers, so I think 2nd tier could be the Champions. Also, I think reserves sides should be made into separate teams. There's just not enough resources to keep them and have 2 pyramids. If we keep this conversation going, it can happen earlier than we think. This is the future of Aussie Rules. I believe it.
Doing this you could go back to the 12 team grading system, every side playing each other twice in a 22 round season. You could run 4 divisions of 12 then. Maybe even 5.
Another con missed in this video is what if a team in the nail or lower tiers had the same uniform or close enough to a team already in tier 1? Ringwood roos would have to rebrand for instance to distinguish from North
Would love to see a massive shake up of the AFL leagues and structures. How do you think a 2-2-1-1-1 system would work for the finals bracket? And would the minor league seasons be as long as the AFL season, in your example of the East Ringwood Roos jumping all the way to the AFL, would that take 4 years of smashing each league?
If you moved to a tier system there’d be no need for the stand alone Tasmanian/NT/Canberra teams. Teams from these regions could just rise up the ranks and their supporter bases would follow.
Well laid out. I think adding franchises at the AFL level would be more likely - could include inviting in some good T2 teams. The money issue, though, comes in - how to get those teams and their facilities on a level playing field with the others?
Yeah that's the struggle, money would need to be funded into those areas, and possibly prize money be added for teams that get promoted, finish top 8 etc.
As someone has already mentioned we need to drop the drafting system in favour of a transfer market used by the entire world bar the US, the revenue made through the development of local talent that perhaps would be passed over by the draft which can then be sold by the smaller clubs to the larger ones for profit. On the flip side players from bigger clubs can be loaned out to the lower tiers in order to develop them and assist lower clubs would be beneficial for footy. However, I also believe that if a Footy pyramid were to happen you'd have to split the second or third tiers into conferences, similar to the English Northern and Southern Conferences in Football. For example you'd have a Western Championship made up of the WAFL, SANFL and NTAFL and an Eastern Championship made up of the remaining leagues with them relegating into their respective state leagues/pyramids. For promotion and relegation it should be a straight the top two from one conference plays the other top two to decide the two teams that are promoted. For Promotion/Relegation between the AFL and NAFL I believe it could be either a straight top two go up and bottom two go down, Alternatively you could have the old Premier League system of where first place goes straight up and the bottom of the AFL goes down. However, the 2nd placed NAFL team plays against the second bottom AFL team in a relegation playoff with the winner staying up or being promoted. In my opinion Finals Series should be something exclusive to the AFL. To perhaps compensate the other teams for losing out on finals it could be considered adding an Australia Cup style competition which all clubs of all tiers are able to compete in during the season. This would generate alot of revenue for the smaller clubs through TV fees and bumper crowds with the smaller clubs mandated home games as it is done in the Soccer Australia cup already when an ALeague Side is drawn against an NPL club, for example if Swan Districts made it into the later rounds and played against Collingwood, the game would be played at Steel Blue Oval rather than Optus or the MCG.
Relegation to the next lower league is something I have thought would really be a wonderful thing to try to put some oomph into players. Along with the demotion of the team, reduce the pay the players receive by a pro rata portion. Perhaps have a basic wage, for example, $200K? Anyway, AFLPA would never in a million years agree to it.
I love the idea! what if the team that wins the minor NAFL premiership but doesnt win the premiership gets to play against 17th from the AFL for promotion? So basically earning the team a second chance at promotion and making the team that finished 17th nervous and all of us fans excited to see how it plays out. most seasons 1 would go up but occasionally might get a 2 team exchange, extra excitement is always good
Great concept Macca, I'd probably try fit in a tier five but unsure how that would go down, reason being that if a country club does a fairytale run they're then matched up against a former VFL side in tier 3.
If the reserves follow their first grade counterpart then it would create a problem where two teams have to be relocated each year as the reserve grade winners would go up along with the first grade winners reserve side.
In theory it would be great. In practice, retaining a draft would be unworkable (but that's fine, i don't believe a draft should exist in the AFL as it is). It works with most (not quite all) Association Football partly because they are uncapped on salary, have no draft, and relegation into regional leagues doesn't create big border issues. Getting relegated from the English conference to a north or south conference doesn't mean large trips. If a side from the far south gets relegated in, a side in the midlands that plays in the south gets moved to play in the north. If a side from WA gets promoted to the second tier, and a side from NSW gets relegated from the second tier, either the size of the top NSW league has to change or the NSW side plays in the (now) third tier WAFL. That's a massive difference. The top Championship side is usually paying around the same as, often more than, the bottom Premiership side. The gulf between AFL sides and the next tier is massive, the rearrangement is - as you say - verging on the impossible, and certainly impractical. With reserves added, AFL lists would actually become larger. Currently when they field their reserves teams they use top-ups, but many don't field their own reserves but have basically consumed other clubs which would have their own lists as well as the (currently) AFL club reserve players. The AFL club would need their own full reserves, and the subservient club (e.g. Box Hell) its own full list as well. In 1986, pre-Eagles, maybe it could have been done. The gap between the VFL and SANFL and WAFL was nowhere near as large as between the AFL and state leagues now.
This video was well implemented and I watch the epl and I know the system, it’s too late to introduce relegation/promotion system to the AFL with the way the sport has developed
Very late but I'd probably recommend just putting the reserves sides into the the actual pyramid, with the following 2 rules: 1. Reserve side compete in the pyramid, but are limited to only competing in the third tier and below. No reserve sides in t.he second division. Keeps travel low with reserves sides, but allows them to compete against a decent level of opposition. 2. Reserve sides cannot compete in the same division as their parent club. This is for obvious reasons. If they somehow could get promoted up to that level, then promotion goes to another club, if their parent club gets relegated down into the tier, the reserve side is automatically relegated instead of the last placed team.
I think I read that long time ago, there was a suggestion a pro/rel system was going to be implemented between VFL & VFA, with the VFL wooden spooner swap sides with the VFA premiers every year. We know that never eventuated. If it were to happen, it should've happened long time ago.
If a team with a modest ground is promoted (say Coburg) to tier 1 they could use Docklands or Prices Park. Lack of a mega super own ground should not be an obstacle.
If we had a much larger talent pool, this would be a great idea. Unfortunately, small population base. With more teams on the way, the talent pool will be even more shallow. Still, fun idea, great video!
It would be an absalute nightmare! I see allot people for it without thinking of the logistical and financial outcome Don't get me wrong I actually love the idea of Southport sharks or Norwood in the afl but it has to be on a permanent basis
Thanks Macca, but what if a team from the nafl like east Ringwood got promoted to the afl and north Melbourne got relegated and the same thing happens again next year but north Melbourne got promoted and east Ringwood got relegated and vice versa every year?
glad you enjoyed the vid man, yeah they just go up and down really simple as that. Remember it would be practically impossible for east Ringwood to go all the way to tier 1 anyway too.
Biggest issue is players would leave for tier 1 which is the afl, if a player in tier 3 has a good year tier 1 will take them so it will basically be how we have it now just with all ages and not just juniors and the draft. If we ignore that I would have tier 1 be 12 teams and have 6 for finals top 2 get the bye and have 3 to 6 play off winners play top 2, bottom 4 go to tier 2 top 4 from tier 2 go to tier 1 and so on for the tiers depending on how many teams in each tier depends on how many get promoted and I’d have tier 3 as a state by state league so we don’t have a 40 team comp
Yeah fair call man, its inevitable anyway with players leaving to high tiers, that's how it works in soccer. I kept it 18 teams too because considering the numbers and size of the sport, you want to have the least amount of teams moving up and down tiers.
On the top 2 tiers it would work . Tier 3 will work as it is state based and Queensland are already using it already .] This is why you have The Southport Sharks relegated to the tier 2 VFL.
There would only be protests from Vics. SA and WA have already lived through their teams being relegated to the 2nd Tier. When they used to be on par with the Vics as parallel competitions.
I get the arguments about distance in Australia but maybe Victoria could have a promotion relegation within just the state. So the top tier is the VFL, 2nd tier the major leagues like and 3rd tier the minor leagues
Really well thought out footy pyramid. I’d prefer this over the Vic centric compromised mess we have today with the AFL… population and money are the challenges, and we are too far down the AFL rabbit hole to make major changes such as this. 1987 would have been the time to attempt it, but the economics at the time dictated that any national league was going to spawn out of the VFL, there really was no other option.
Maybe a different way of doing something like this is it’s a completion on who can be the 20th team so then when tassie comes in it Dosnt become a uneven comp fixture every team has a by week
this video is probably past due to comment on but I think no reserves would be a better system, because teams lower on the system would be able to boost their numbers with loaned players from the AFL sides
I think the biggest issue you’ve not accounted for is the unpredictability of who’s going up and down. You’ve mentioned a team going down to tier 3 would slot into their state league. If a Vic team went up and QLD team went down, those leagues now become lopsided. One extra team in QLD and one less in Vic. Play that out across various states and years, you could end up having 30 in QLD and only 15 in Vic (or even more or less). That now creates all sorts of fairness checks and levels.
That last bit about the reserve movement wouldn’t create a competitive or rewarding environment. In England they just leave the reserve sides to be as they are and usually the good teams usually have their reserve side in the 1st or 2nd league.
Could have the scenario of say the senior AFL side getting relegated but the reserves AFL side winning the flag… since the reserves side follows the seniors, the reserves would get relegated despite winning the flag in the reserves comp
Wouldn't mind seeing promotion/relegation but I think realistically, it would have to be between the AFL and state leagues for at least 20 years before introducing amateur teams in to the mix. They could still use the pyramid, just a smaller version. Each states premier side would play off in a knockout or round robin comp to crown the champion and from there, you get your promoted team and then whoever finishes 18th in the AFL moves back to their state league. The only issue I could see coming from that would be if all the Victorian sides eventually fall out of the AFL and are replaced by interstate teams. That would potentially cripple state leagues unless they were able to temporarily merge state leagues so they can have full seasons - which then feeds in to the issue of travel for state teams and supporters. The AFL would have to put some serious coin up to accommodate it
I'm 3 weeks late, I just found your channel 😅 this was a great video and put together VERY well.. I think it would be a great idea for the sport, it deserves world wide recognition. Question, do you think it would be more possible if the AFL decided to privatise teams? So each team is private with an actual owner? Surely that would reduce the funding significantly that the AFL provides to teams every year.
Cheers mate glad you enjoyed the video, yeah most likely this would have to happen. Considering that other sports that have promotion and relegation have this.
Main problem for me will be home grounds. When a current AFL team gets relegated, can they no longer play at the G or Marvel? And does the suburban or rural team coming into the top flight, then have to move their home games to a decent sized venue?
Promotion and relegation is a brilliant system. Even though it's unlikely that lower tier clubs can ever get the top spot, it creates a bigger sense of community for all clubs. You see this in Europe, where many communities rally around their local club. And for every club that gets kicked out, there are 4 or 5 clubs fighting for that spot. I think maybe having 2-3 teams promoted/relegated instead of 1 would create more fluidity. But otherwise, I think this is a pretty good system. I also think that the reserves system would need to be different, I don't think a national league for reserves makes particular financial or sport sense, especially since Australia is such a massive country. I think the names should also be different, something like AFL Premier and AFL National or something like that.
Ringwood gets promoted to tier 1 (AFL).... then proceeds to be smashed by literally every other tier 1 team until it's relegated again.... what's the point? I like the topic, it's fun, and a well done video, but apart from the money... it isn't realistic to assume that the best side in the lower leagues are necessarily better than the worst side of tier 1. However bad the 18th team is in the AFL, it'd still have miles of upside and a higher ceiling in the long run than the best side of any league elsewhere. Another reason it wouldn't work is that unlike the EPL, where the best side of their leagues are those that finish 1st (minor premiers = premiers), the fact that a team that finishes 7th in a tier 2 league can theoretically win the premiership and thus, have a 7th place team in tier 2 promoted to tier 1 doesn't necessarily mean it'd be the best team progressing.
Yeah I get your point, it’s 100% correct and to be fair that’s how it usually happens in soccer leagues in Europe, perhaps a transfer system would have to be forced into place to aid the promoted side more on top of the draft. Also prize money would be implemented for the promoted sides.
I love these hypotheticals. I don't think it will ever happen in Australia for lots of reasons. My favourite being, that the best players not selected in the AFL will simply play in the reserve grade comp, so as to be on hand when injuries or suspensions inevitably come. Thus making the NAFL the 3rd best competition in the country. Whoever gets promoted will only get 1 year from getting flogged every week before demotion. The next promoted team would continue the cycle.
What happens to a teams players when they get relegated from tier 1? I find it hard to imagine a player would want the instability of being recruited by a promoted team. Hard to have both the draft in the promotion/relegation system
While I like the pyramid setup, I would increase the promotion/relegation between at least tier 1 and 2, and maybe tier 2 and 3. Going off other leagues, they do have more slots in this in the upper leagues, and I could see it fitting with this structure too, since only 1 promotion/relegation seems highly constrictive. Sidenote: Thanks for including Port (the Bulldogs) in the SANFL tier 3. I only wish they could play in the SANFL....
Yeah fair call on increasing the amount of teams being promoted/relegated. I personally only made it 1 team going up and down because I feel there wouldn't want to be too many drastic changes on the league each year.
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Friday night games at the local div 4 team would be such an experience. This would be great to see.
Souvas be poppin, like the pigskin, or footy.
Especially if an AFL team gets relegated all the way to tier 4 and it’s a local club vs a former AFL club with a big fan base
West Coast v North Adelaide in the div 4 promotion playoffs, can you ask for more
@@jkfootybros9425 west coast are not a big club outside Western Australia shush you aren’t near Collingwood or even Dandenong stingrays
@The-SCG-Files west coast are the most profitable club in the afl and are worth more than most other clubs, obviously Collingwood has more fans but dropping your netball team for financial reasons dhows a lot.
100% agree - One of the most crucial factors is shifting away from the draft and introducing a transfer market so that lower league clubs can make a profit developing prospects. It would open up the entire system for this to work. Great vid.
Love how you've integrated this! I think the only major flaw is that it may be unrealistic for Tier 2 sides to travel for their interstate games assuming that the league doesn't have major financial backing. You could easily do it with a conference system akin to the NBA, though. You could go a Southeast Conference of Vic and Tassie, Northeast Conference of NSW and Queensland, and a Western Third Conference with SA, WA, and NT. It would be like the regional leagues in Tier 3, i.e., playing locally and having a national finals round, but within the one league. Alternatively you could have a hub system like we did during covid, but then I imagine that would have its own issues. Guess it would be up to the players/coaches in the league to decide whether they'd rather travel interstate every other week or spend 3/4 weeks away from home.
Yeah the conference system sounds like a cracking idea in tier 2, certainly would be more realistic to have it in place if there isn't enough money for national travel. Glad you enjoyed the video mate.
@@RilesMacca No wokkas there cobba, you've done really well on this one. And yeah, we have to keep the WA and SA teams in mind when it comes to travel!
Or get rid of tier two and put tiers 3&4 up one and The new tier 4 could be added when overseas teams join and if they win overseas then they get into tier 3 or something similar
I've been thinking this for years, as a huge fan of the English football tier system, but I've never been able to design a plan for a tiered AFL as you have in this video. Incredible work my man!
As much as I would love to see this become a reality, I also agree that it would never happen in our lifetime because of the logistics. but, hey... a fan can dream, right?
as someone who played Cricket and footy for East Ringwood i would love to see the Roos kick arse in the AFL haha
Love the in depth info. but could you imagine if Collingwood or richmond with 100,000 members were in the second tier
Or they get relegated to their 4 and have to play in the VAFA. It would be amazing if the Fitzroy Football Club in the VAFA got promoted to the AFL if this system were put in place
Yeah I hate them both.
I love richmond
Richmond only have a large membership when they're successful. They'd all crawl back into the woodwork if they were relegated.
@@listey Get the microwaves busy cooking membership cards.
This was fantastic mate, one of the best footy related videos I've watched on the platform.
@UCATT same
At this I'm convinced you're gonna have a job in the AFL just based off your effort in these vids
That could work! But i'd rather make the AFL with 3 relegations to NAFL , and NAFL with 4, and Tier 4 would have 8 with relegations instead (Some regional teams would be adding a promotion playoffs depending of how many depending on the city). Great video BTW! IRYO on the system!
This is one of the best and most thought out videos i have seen. Great content
It'd be a cool idea but I think in countries like Australia and in North America where the competition is more between sports (e.g. NRL, A-League; NBA, NFL, NHL) than between clubs it's really hard to do where you're not in a country where the sport you're doing promo/reg in is the first, second, and third most popular sport.
That is a big factor indeed, of course the English pyramid includes 4 professional league when football (soccer) is the uncontested number 1 sport in England and the Premier league is one of the most (globally) watched leagues in the world. The Aussie rules participation (relative to population) doesn’t even come close to the football (soccer) participation in England and the sport isn’t even very popular some parts of the country.
I love the theory! Probably wouldn’t want to see it implemented (and as mentioned it would probably be impossible too) but it’s great to think about!
As a european fan of footy I think we absolutely need these changes
The major problem with AFL and the second tier VFL is that many of the teams in VFL already have AFL teams.
Back between the 1900s to 1999, there was the Under 19s, Reserves and Senior teams while the current VFL was originally the VFA back in the day.
When the VFA became the current VFL in 2000s, many of the older VFA teams were struggling financially including Port Melbourne and Williamstown where they had to partner up with an AFL team to become a affiliation side.
In recent years from 2015 onwards when Western Bulldogs revived their Footscray name for the VFL as their stand alone Reserves side.
So if there was a Relegation/Promotion system then there will be a conflict if one of the stronger VFL teams ends up being promoted into the AFL where their Seniors side are.
So while the VFL/AFL never had a relegation system with the VFA/VFL, they each had their own Under 19s, Reserves and Seniors teams to separate the pros and the rookies and those who never get a chance with the senior AFL side.
You have worked this out pretty thoroughly Miles and if it was ever implemented it would be pretty spectacular.
Another thought would be a very much scaled down system. If you recall, the old VFA had two divisions and a system of relegation and promotion but only between the two divisions. It actually worked pretty well. I believe that 18 AFL teams is too many for any competition - a situation which is only going to get worse with the introduction of a team from Tassie. As such I would like to see a system along the lines of the old VFA for our AFL Admittedly it's nowhere near as grand as your proposal but it would stand a chance of being implemented.
Most local Leagues already have such a system in place which seems to work okay and I can see no real reason why the AFL shouldn't do likewise.
This is perfectly explained and a great creative idea Riles!
Suggestion for a what if? What if the AFL introduced a conference system like that of the NFL, where teams would be divided into conferences, have separate conference play offs just like our current finals system, with the premiers of each division playing each other in national championship, representing each conference, with the ultimate winner being crowned as AFL Champions? I believe the best way of doing this would be four separate conferences, the Victorian Conference comprising of all Victorian teams, the South Australian Conference comprising teams from the former SANFL, the Western Conference, comprising of the former Western Australian Football League and the Northeastern League, comprising of teams from NT, NSW and QLD, since they would have less Footy teams due to their preference of rugby overall. Just a suggestion for a what if.
Yeah that sounds like a really good concept too. To make the numbers work, there might have to be only 2 conferences, with like the top 4 teams from each conference making finals.
What an awesome video from you Riles! Extremely well thought out and excellently put together. You’ve just got me incredibly hyped over an idea that will never happen. We can only dream such a change would become reality though. Like you said, it would make for such an exciting and enthralling new chapter in Australian Rules Football!
You summed up my thoughts exactly.
Well it could backfire enormously , people here are overenthusiastic. People should look at the English PL first and reflect if that is really such a great system.
Glad i didnt comment till the end. top quality video mate, think your right to say its not feasible at the moment but maybe in 80-100 years we will have the money, population and transport systems to have this work.
It's an idea I have mooted for years. Good to see someone else talking about it.
Great Video Riles, could be my favourite video on the whole of RUclips. Such an interesting concept, but of course, as mentioned there’s so many logistics. The stadium standard difference between the AFL and NAFL would be massive compared to the standard between the EPL and championship. If Coburg were promoted into the AFL, they’d be playing at Cobourg city Oval against 17 other teams who have fully seated stadiums. Also, do you think before a pyramid started lots of non-AFL clubs would have to get rebranded otherwise we could have Richmond, Werribee, Glenelg, Claremont, Albury, Wagga, Torquay, Noosa, Kingsboroh ect all being the Tigers all in the same league. To me the biggest fear of the system is traditional football states dominating and the sport dying in Gold Coast in western Sydney because they have no teams in the top professional league.
Really excellent video. Such underrated content.
Great explaining! love to see this in the future keep up the great work.
far out this would be incredible
Small suggested change: 3 teams are promoted/relegated each year between tiers 2 and 3, and 2 promoted/relegated each year between tiers 1 and 2. A relegation playoff system like in the German Bundesliga also looks appealing
for this to work i think you would need to either reduce the number of teams in each league to about 14 or make the bottom 2, 3 or 4 teams in a league be relegated
This did almost happen at one point the VFA offered to become the second division of the VFL, but the VFL clubs refused the offer because they didn't want to have the risk of relegation.
Riles gotta be one of the most creative AFL youtubers out there
Great video I’d prefer 2 up 2 down system. Say if you finish top of the league your guaranteed to go up. Then the teams below have a play off for the other spot. Then you could introduce a cup competition. Hence placing far more value on winning your league
Very creative and fantastic video!
Love the idea mate, I have always had the idea of a promotion/relegation in AFL since I love watching Soccer but I see one major problem with this system though. In think either the reserve league should have stand alone promotion/relegation or (the option I prefer) have no reserve league and instead just let all of the players in those teams go down.
If the reserve league had standalone promotion/relegation it would help develop players more than for example the Carlton reserves winning by 200 points every game because they wont develop as well as if they were playing competition with players more to their level. But having no reserve league would mean
1.AFL teams have to balance having young players and starters in their list
2.Help the 2-4 tiers by being able to develop talent which would in turn make better players all the way through the system better
3.Make the AFL spend less money and time on a whole 2nd system and turn towards other things that are more useful (like a cup competition)
If you read all of this, thank you and I hope to see more AFL content from you because these vids are high quality. Keep it up
Fantastic video mate this was awesome! as you stated in the video 1 of our biggest issue is just the population of the country, I feel the talent pool just isn't big enough to support something like this and sustain competition. But none the less would be very interesting!
Riles Macca this would also allow port adelaide to wear black and white prison bars and wear a 3rd clash kit.
I used to play with all the guys at 2:57 of this video! Picture was taken just before I joined.
I’ve often thought about this but it’s hard to not have Vic, SA and WA dominate the numbers. I considered you could have reserved spots for each state to ensure the Allies states are repped, and if the team in that spot doesn’t make finals they can be challenged by the highest place finisher from their state for the spot in their tier
Once Tasmania becomes the 19th AFL team in the new future and eventually a 20th team (hopefully a NT team, that’s what I’m hoping for), I could kinda see the AFL have conferences similar in style to the NFL.
However, for this to work we would need to have 20 teams. The idea I’ve thought of would be 5 conferences consisting of 4 teams each.
- Each conference would have at least 1 pair of rival teams (one would have Adel/Port, another would have WC/Freo, two would have Syd/GWS and one would have Bris/GC etc)
- All teams would play their rivals and the other two teams in their pools twice during the year and every other team once for a 23 round season. There will still be a mid season bye
- Finals will still be the top 8 and will be decided solely on the best record of the top 8 teams altogether, regardless of which pool they are in
These are the types of conversations we need to have about Aussie Rules and the AFL.
We have the Premiers, so I think 2nd tier could be the Champions.
Also, I think reserves sides should be made into separate teams. There's just not enough resources to keep them and have 2 pyramids.
If we keep this conversation going, it can happen earlier than we think.
This is the future of Aussie Rules.
I believe it.
Doing this you could go back to the 12 team grading system, every side playing each other twice in a 22 round season. You could run 4 divisions of 12 then. Maybe even 5.
Great video mate. Very well made... how amazing would it be if this actually happened!
Another con missed in this video is what if a team in the nail or lower tiers had the same uniform or close enough to a team already in tier 1? Ringwood roos would have to rebrand for instance to distinguish from North
Would love to see a massive shake up of the AFL leagues and structures. How do you think a 2-2-1-1-1 system would work for the finals bracket? And would the minor league seasons be as long as the AFL season, in your example of the East Ringwood Roos jumping all the way to the AFL, would that take 4 years of smashing each league?
Elite video mate! I would honestly love to see this to add a bit more intensity down the bottom of the AFL ladder
If you moved to a tier system there’d be no need for the stand alone Tasmanian/NT/Canberra teams. Teams from these regions could just rise up the ranks and their supporter bases would follow.
Well laid out. I think adding franchises at the AFL level would be more likely - could include inviting in some good T2 teams. The money issue, though, comes in - how to get those teams and their facilities on a level playing field with the others?
Yeah that's the struggle, money would need to be funded into those areas, and possibly prize money be added for teams that get promoted, finish top 8 etc.
Awesome video mate! Could see this happening.
As someone has already mentioned we need to drop the drafting system in favour of a transfer market used by the entire world bar the US, the revenue made through the development of local talent that perhaps would be passed over by the draft which can then be sold by the smaller clubs to the larger ones for profit. On the flip side players from bigger clubs can be loaned out to the lower tiers in order to develop them and assist lower clubs would be beneficial for footy.
However, I also believe that if a Footy pyramid were to happen you'd have to split the second or third tiers into conferences, similar to the English Northern and Southern Conferences in Football. For example you'd have a Western Championship made up of the WAFL, SANFL and NTAFL and an Eastern Championship made up of the remaining leagues with them relegating into their respective state leagues/pyramids. For promotion and relegation it should be a straight the top two from one conference plays the other top two to decide the two teams that are promoted.
For Promotion/Relegation between the AFL and NAFL I believe it could be either a straight top two go up and bottom two go down, Alternatively you could have the old Premier League system of where first place goes straight up and the bottom of the AFL goes down. However, the 2nd placed NAFL team plays against the second bottom AFL team in a relegation playoff with the winner staying up or being promoted.
In my opinion Finals Series should be something exclusive to the AFL. To perhaps compensate the other teams for losing out on finals it could be considered adding an Australia Cup style competition which all clubs of all tiers are able to compete in during the season. This would generate alot of revenue for the smaller clubs through TV fees and bumper crowds with the smaller clubs mandated home games as it is done in the Soccer Australia cup already when an ALeague Side is drawn against an NPL club, for example if Swan Districts made it into the later rounds and played against Collingwood, the game would be played at Steel Blue Oval rather than Optus or the MCG.
Relegation to the next lower league is something I have thought would really be a wonderful thing to try to put some oomph into players.
Along with the demotion of the team, reduce the pay the players receive by a pro rata portion.
Perhaps have a basic wage, for example, $200K?
Anyway, AFLPA would never in a million years agree to it.
I love the idea! what if the team that wins the minor NAFL premiership but doesnt win the premiership gets to play against 17th from the AFL for promotion? So basically earning the team a second chance at promotion and making the team that finished 17th nervous and all of us fans excited to see how it plays out. most seasons 1 would go up but occasionally might get a 2 team exchange, extra excitement is always good
Great concept Macca, I'd probably try fit in a tier five but unsure how that would go down, reason being that if a country club does a fairytale run they're then matched up against a former VFL side in tier 3.
If the reserves follow their first grade counterpart then it would create a problem where two teams have to be relocated each year as the reserve grade winners would go up along with the first grade winners reserve side.
Beautiful video and idea.
both AFL & NRL need this
I really like this idea. It would be great if implemented. Hopefully it could happen.
In theory it would be great. In practice, retaining a draft would be unworkable (but that's fine, i don't believe a draft should exist in the AFL as it is).
It works with most (not quite all) Association Football partly because they are uncapped on salary, have no draft, and relegation into regional leagues doesn't create big border issues. Getting relegated from the English conference to a north or south conference doesn't mean large trips. If a side from the far south gets relegated in, a side in the midlands that plays in the south gets moved to play in the north. If a side from WA gets promoted to the second tier, and a side from NSW gets relegated from the second tier, either the size of the top NSW league has to change or the NSW side plays in the (now) third tier WAFL. That's a massive difference.
The top Championship side is usually paying around the same as, often more than, the bottom Premiership side. The gulf between AFL sides and the next tier is massive, the rearrangement is - as you say - verging on the impossible, and certainly impractical.
With reserves added, AFL lists would actually become larger. Currently when they field their reserves teams they use top-ups, but many don't field their own reserves but have basically consumed other clubs which would have their own lists as well as the (currently) AFL club reserve players. The AFL club would need their own full reserves, and the subservient club (e.g. Box Hell) its own full list as well.
In 1986, pre-Eagles, maybe it could have been done. The gap between the VFL and SANFL and WAFL was nowhere near as large as between the AFL and state leagues now.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has thought of this
Love how central reverse colac got a tiny part 😉
Genuinely pumped that Coburg won your imaginary tier 3 bracket. Carn the Burgers!
This video was well implemented and I watch the epl and I know the system, it’s too late to introduce relegation/promotion system to the AFL with the way the sport has developed
Very late but I'd probably recommend just putting the reserves sides into the the actual pyramid, with the following 2 rules:
1. Reserve side compete in the pyramid, but are limited to only competing in the third tier and below. No reserve sides in t.he second division. Keeps travel low with reserves sides, but allows them to compete against a decent level of opposition.
2. Reserve sides cannot compete in the same division as their parent club. This is for obvious reasons. If they somehow could get promoted up to that level, then promotion goes to another club, if their parent club gets relegated down into the tier, the reserve side is automatically relegated instead of the last placed team.
I think I read that long time ago, there was a suggestion a pro/rel system was going to be implemented between VFL & VFA, with the VFL wooden spooner swap sides with the VFA premiers every year. We know that never eventuated. If it were to happen, it should've happened long time ago.
Great video I’m not sure about it tbh this is a great idea but I really don’t know as well because of schedule and where the home games will be played
If a team with a modest ground is promoted (say Coburg) to tier 1 they could use Docklands or Prices Park. Lack of a mega super own ground should not be an obstacle.
If we had a much larger talent pool, this would be a great idea. Unfortunately, small population base. With more teams on the way, the talent pool will be even more shallow. Still, fun idea, great video!
how local leagues work in area is the exact same pyramid in each division rivals except this is every single league!
It would be an absalute nightmare! I see allot people for it without thinking of the logistical and financial outcome
Don't get me wrong I actually love the idea of Southport sharks or Norwood in the afl but it has to be on a permanent basis
Thanks Macca, but what if a team from the nafl like east Ringwood got promoted to the afl and north Melbourne got relegated and the same thing happens again next year but north Melbourne got promoted and east Ringwood got relegated and vice versa every year?
glad you enjoyed the vid man, yeah they just go up and down really simple as that. Remember it would be practically impossible for east Ringwood to go all the way to tier 1 anyway too.
Biggest issue is players would leave for tier 1 which is the afl, if a player in tier 3 has a good year tier 1 will take them so it will basically be how we have it now just with all ages and not just juniors and the draft. If we ignore that I would have tier 1 be 12 teams and have 6 for finals top 2 get the bye and have 3 to 6 play off winners play top 2, bottom 4 go to tier 2 top 4 from tier 2 go to tier 1 and so on for the tiers depending on how many teams in each tier depends on how many get promoted and I’d have tier 3 as a state by state league so we don’t have a 40 team comp
Yeah fair call man, its inevitable anyway with players leaving to high tiers, that's how it works in soccer. I kept it 18 teams too because considering the numbers and size of the sport, you want to have the least amount of teams moving up and down tiers.
Love the idea it would be a great Thing especially for a bunch of local leagues like the WRFL and more ❤❤
Great video, very interesting idea
On the top 2 tiers it would work . Tier 3 will work as it is state based and Queensland are already using it already .]
This is why you have The Southport Sharks relegated to the tier 2 VFL.
A proper, permanent national 2nd division would be so cool. Call it the "Championship".
EFNL mentioned. I’m happy.
There would only be protests from Vics. SA and WA have already lived through their teams being relegated to the 2nd Tier. When they used to be on par with the Vics as parallel competitions.
I get the arguments about distance in Australia but maybe Victoria could have a promotion relegation within just the state. So the top tier is the VFL, 2nd tier the major leagues like and 3rd tier the minor leagues
Really well thought out footy pyramid. I’d prefer this over the Vic centric compromised mess we have today with the AFL… population and money are the challenges, and we are too far down the AFL rabbit hole to make major changes such as this. 1987 would have been the time to attempt it, but the economics at the time dictated that any national league was going to spawn out of the VFL, there really was no other option.
Maybe a different way of doing something like this is it’s a completion on who can be the 20th team so then when tassie comes in it Dosnt become a uneven comp fixture every team has a by week
I reckon it would be awesome!
2:42 Ballarat Football League logo included. LETS GOOOOO!!!!!! UP THE BURRA 💙💛💙💛
this video is probably past due to comment on but I think no reserves would be a better system, because teams lower on the system would be able to boost their numbers with loaned players from the AFL sides
it already happens in junior football so it would be interesting to see it at a higher level
Reduced list sizes should lead to a reduced season, and possible culling of teams in each tier to balance it out. Go from 18 teams in the AFL to 12/14
I think the biggest issue you’ve not accounted for is the unpredictability of who’s going up and down. You’ve mentioned a team going down to tier 3 would slot into their state league. If a Vic team went up and QLD team went down, those leagues now become lopsided. One extra team in QLD and one less in Vic. Play that out across various states and years, you could end up having 30 in QLD and only 15 in Vic (or even more or less). That now creates all sorts of fairness checks and levels.
That last bit about the reserve movement wouldn’t create a competitive or rewarding environment. In England they just leave the reserve sides to be as they are and usually the good teams usually have their reserve side in the 1st or 2nd league.
Hell will freeze over before the Southport Sharks to enter the AFL comp.
Such a good idea if this happened the AFL could be one of the biggest leagues in the world
Could have the scenario of say the senior AFL side getting relegated but the reserves AFL side winning the flag… since the reserves side follows the seniors, the reserves would get relegated despite winning the flag in the reserves comp
Would love this to happen but would suck for the port Adelaide Maggies to be stuck in a reserves league. Would need to seperate the teams again
Wouldn't mind seeing promotion/relegation but I think realistically, it would have to be between the AFL and state leagues for at least 20 years before introducing amateur teams in to the mix.
They could still use the pyramid, just a smaller version.
Each states premier side would play off in a knockout or round robin comp to crown the champion and from there, you get your promoted team and then whoever finishes 18th in the AFL moves back to their state league. The only issue I could see coming from that would be if all the Victorian sides eventually fall out of the AFL and are replaced by interstate teams. That would potentially cripple state leagues unless they were able to temporarily merge state leagues so they can have full seasons - which then feeds in to the issue of travel for state teams and supporters. The AFL would have to put some serious coin up to accommodate it
I'm 3 weeks late, I just found your channel 😅 this was a great video and put together VERY well..
I think it would be a great idea for the sport, it deserves world wide recognition.
Question, do you think it would be more possible if the AFL decided to privatise teams? So each team is private with an actual owner?
Surely that would reduce the funding significantly that the AFL provides to teams every year.
Cheers mate glad you enjoyed the video, yeah most likely this would have to happen. Considering that other sports that have promotion and relegation have this.
While I think this is an interesting idea I really like how without relegation you can make more history with clubs rebuilding
Main problem for me will be home grounds. When a current AFL team gets relegated, can they no longer play at the G or Marvel? And does the suburban or rural team coming into the top flight, then have to move their home games to a decent sized venue?
Promotion and relegation is a brilliant system. Even though it's unlikely that lower tier clubs can ever get the top spot, it creates a bigger sense of community for all clubs. You see this in Europe, where many communities rally around their local club. And for every club that gets kicked out, there are 4 or 5 clubs fighting for that spot.
I think maybe having 2-3 teams promoted/relegated instead of 1 would create more fluidity. But otherwise, I think this is a pretty good system. I also think that the reserves system would need to be different, I don't think a national league for reserves makes particular financial or sport sense, especially since Australia is such a massive country.
I think the names should also be different, something like AFL Premier and AFL National or something like that.
I think the reserves teams would become defunct as players would be taken by other teams in lower tiers or into other teams in the same tier.
Ringwood gets promoted to tier 1 (AFL).... then proceeds to be smashed by literally every other tier 1 team until it's relegated again.... what's the point? I like the topic, it's fun, and a well done video, but apart from the money... it isn't realistic to assume that the best side in the lower leagues are necessarily better than the worst side of tier 1. However bad the 18th team is in the AFL, it'd still have miles of upside and a higher ceiling in the long run than the best side of any league elsewhere. Another reason it wouldn't work is that unlike the EPL, where the best side of their leagues are those that finish 1st (minor premiers = premiers), the fact that a team that finishes 7th in a tier 2 league can theoretically win the premiership and thus, have a 7th place team in tier 2 promoted to tier 1 doesn't necessarily mean it'd be the best team progressing.
Yeah I get your point, it’s 100% correct and to be fair that’s how it usually happens in soccer leagues in Europe, perhaps a transfer system would have to be forced into place to aid the promoted side more on top of the draft. Also prize money would be implemented for the promoted sides.
I love these hypotheticals. I don't think it will ever happen in Australia for lots of reasons. My favourite being, that the best players not selected in the AFL will simply play in the reserve grade comp, so as to be on hand when injuries or suspensions inevitably come. Thus making the NAFL the 3rd best competition in the country. Whoever gets promoted will only get 1 year from getting flogged every week before demotion. The next promoted team would continue the cycle.
What happens to a teams players when they get relegated from tier 1? I find it hard to imagine a player would want the instability of being recruited by a promoted team. Hard to have both the draft in the promotion/relegation system
9:07 Bruh I played junior footy for east Ringwood and was also born there 😅😅
While I like the pyramid setup, I would increase the promotion/relegation between at least tier 1 and 2, and maybe tier 2 and 3. Going off other leagues, they do have more slots in this in the upper leagues, and I could see it fitting with this structure too, since only 1 promotion/relegation seems highly constrictive.
Sidenote: Thanks for including Port (the Bulldogs) in the SANFL tier 3. I only wish they could play in the SANFL....
Yeah fair call on increasing the amount of teams being promoted/relegated. I personally only made it 1 team going up and down because I feel there wouldn't want to be too many drastic changes on the league each year.
Doubt it would work in Australia.
And jumpers. For instance, WestMeadows FC have the richmond sash and if there ppromoted and verse the Tigers...