@@foxpup The same goes for home lighting: we don't want our homes to look like a doctor's office. Being brutally efficient with lighting often takes away the coziness of a living space.
@@siangmingalexlau8220 I dare to say that the efficiency of LED lights has made people light up sites even more than they did with classic bulbs, to the point that I really think they end up using MORE electricity than before while lighting everything up like a carnival and discovering all kinds of new places to illuminate. That sure is my experience in my neighborhood which is a bit of a frustration since I like to look at stuff up in the night sky. I'm not exactly innocent on the matter myself but I do sometime pine for the days of the old light bulbs and tiny neon illuminated switches and such. Yes, sometimes less is more.
@J Fz If I understand class A ampliffiers, they pretty well use the same amount of energy no matter how much power gets sent to the speakers, large or small. Naturally they get more efficient when you work them hard and are grotesquely inneficient for small sounds. True class A amps are rare. Most have power supply tricks to make them more efficient.
@J Fz I would expect the cladd-D amp that Paul moved over on top of the other one will sip very little power when it is being quiet-ish and will only draw a lot when it's being loud, all the way up to 1411W = 1200W/85% at the extreme.
Not sure I'm going to get on a guilt trip because of the amount of electricity my audio gear uses. It's an insignificant amount of power compared to what a typical household uses. Do enjoy Paul's videos.
I can't agree more. Everybody has something they love to do, hey even criminals, just kidding. Even the enviromentalist beat the world up a little. I use LED bubs in my house......because I like them. My amp draws a whole lot less than my old incandescent bulbs did. So, I'm still ahead of the game. My music keeps me home, happy and cheerful all through the year. Enjoy!
I've had some serious heat issues with Class A in the past and as power is used continuously, you can end up keeping your AC running more just to cool the room from the extra heat of the amp. If your class A amp is using 500 Watts and you live in a hot climate, you can expect to use extra another >700 Watts on the AC to keep the room cool. If you keep your amp on 24/7, it starts counting as a cost on your electric bill.
I ran an experiment. I wanted to see if I could get acclimated to colder indoor temps during winter. I stuck with it for an entire season. When I was uncomfortable I just grinned and beared it. And when I felt fine for a few days, I'd turn the thermostat down by a degree. By the end, 55 degrees was mostly fine, and I only decided to stop due to boredom and the fact that much lower isn't recommended for homes. What I realized is that you do get acclimated over time, but the humidity, your hunger level, your energy and tiredness level, and the types of fabric you wear all have a dramatic effect on how long it takes to plateau and become adjusted to the new normal. The energy savings alone was far larger than any preference of electronics I considered.
There is the ELECTRIC CHAGCE nad for lots of electricty the DEMAND CHARGE. The de3mand meter is somethung like 90perfent fo full scale in 15 minutes, if I remember correctly. Maybe 10 cents a kilowatt hour and 10 dollara per KVA ofev whatever hte KVA demand limuits is. They use cdapacotores to get the KVA close to the KW. THNAKES YOU, THUMBBS USP!
@Fat Rat Nah, not really. It's not really audio related, but it was just a suggestion for those trying to save a ton of energy if you're concerned about your audio amp preference. :) It was a "cool experiment" and I learned that the human body truly does try to regulate itself and experience a state of comfort though the long term conditions can be less than what was previously thought of as ideal. I kinda knew this because it seems as winter nears its end the temperature maybe colder on a particular day, than what I experienced in December, but I require less clothing. It seems those very cold January and February days makes the less cold days of March much easier to bear. But I wasn't sure if this translated to indoor temperatures. I thought that maybe the human body always needs a stable 68 to 72 indoors as a way to reach maximum comfort. It really doesn't. It was pretty easy and I only kept turning down the thermostat a degree once I felt fine again. The first 3 days after a temp decrease went back and forth. I'd often feel cold the first day or maybe the second day, fine the next, ever so slightly chilly the next day, and then each day after was easier. If I felt like I didn't notice the temperature in the room for about 3 days I'd turn down the temp another degree. Rarely, I'd feel really cold. When that happened I'd just put on another layer or even a hat. And sleeping was easy as well. I always used the same two or three blankets. In the summer, I also let it run a little warm (74 or so), but make sure the humidity is way down. Sweating is gross so I can't play with extremes like I did in the winter. Now, the lowest I go in winter is 60. 55 takes too much dedication and too many moments of discomfort. Those last 5 degrees takes about as long to get adjusted to than the entire 12 degree drop from 72 to 60. Now you know way too much about the "Jimmy Carter way," lol. After decades of scoffing and rolling my eyes at people who did this, I had to see what would happen. I found it fun; lame I know.
@Fat Rat stay safe. Don't let a snake bite ya or a roo punch you. If they want a break from the heat, tell them the neighbors have air conditioning. :)
Fascinating subject and IMO Paul did a great job here explaining the PS Audio side of things. Correct me if I’m wrong but Paul participates in the design of his amps but he has a head engineer that does most of the heavy lifting. His name escapes me. And I think from time to time he has contracted with outside designers for some of this products. I’d pay airfare and overnight hotel room costs to see the PS Audio head design engineer and Nelson Pass ( Threshold, Pass Labs ) in a civil give and take discussion and take questions from the audience. I’ve spent hours with Nelson listening to his philosophy on audio amplifier design. I‘ve owned a number of his products over the years. To boil all this down. A Nelson Pass amp will have an idle power of about 50% of rated output. So a Pass Labs 100W power amp with its input shorted will draw probably a little more then 50W doing nothing. And something over 100W running at full power. The PS Audio amp Paul presented in this video probably draws under 10W with its input shorted out. And something over it’s rated output at full output. So there the discussion begins. And it would be fun to listen to. Which is better? I think the Pass amps are a little more costly then PS Audio. Are they better? Well there’s the spirited discussion isn’t it. One advantage of a Pass amp is that it can double as a space heater during the winter.
We are concerned with the heat output here in Arizona. I have a pair of Class D amps I use during the summer because they put out almost no heat, Tubes or Class A the rest of the year.
My little SET which is class A at about 12 watts per side is consuming roughly 150 from the wall continually. And it basically never changes. In fact it gets more efficient when you run full volume as it pretty much transfers heat to sound. The actual driver stage itself is probably 25% efficient peak, but there is also the warming plates and other losses.
I'll just unscrew my neighbors post light, plug an extension cord into his patio recepticle and run an extension cord to my house. He owes me anyway and it wont cost me a dime. All will equal out.
A Toronto University Professor made a 1 watt amplifier he demonstrated that it was so extremely loud in the auditorium that everyone put their hands over their ears it was that LOUD !!!!!
Class A amps are *at least* halfway "on." The general consensus is to bias a Class A amplifier in such a way that the transistors/tubes allow some current to always pass across them, even at full output power. (Generally, with a solid-state amplifier, this equates to ~3/5 of the rail voltage on the output, 1/3 of the power supply output current, or whatever you are comfortable with in terms of thermal limit.) So there is a constant current draw at idle, but at maximum output power, that current draw can be nearly twice as much. This is not taking into account the other inefficiencies of the chosen amplifier topology. So, for example, I have a little DIY JLH amplifier using a class A push-pull topology. (The nomenclature is a bit confusing, but it is true Class A.) The idle current is 1.22A, which means that, at maximum output power, the amplifier will swing up to 2.44A (load-dependent). The idle dissipation is about 50 watts per channel, max dissipation is about 80-90 watts per channel, but I'm only getting about 10W+10W of output power. Nelson Pass has several good write-ups on his First Watt page in the "Articles" section if you wanna look further.
Say you live in a hot country in a 4 bedroom house where you need your ACs to be run 24/7 all year round which is close to 2 kW of power continuously. What's 100-200 W for a couple of hours going to do to your electricity bill? I think this is what Paul meant when he said to put things into perspective.
Back in the 70s when I started my audiophile journey I had a Bose 1801 power amplifier that weighed 82 pounds along with 4 Bose 901 speakers (2 per channel). The 901s used an equalizer that boosted the bass by 18dB at 35Hz and the lights in my house would dim when a bass drum would hit. This has got to be the most power hungry and inefficient setup in audio history. I sold everything after a couple of years use for the same amount that I bought it all for because I got sick of the amplifier clipping at more than 400 watts per channel output. An insane amount of power would need to be available probably over a kilowatt per channel to avoid clipping but the bass was unbelievable from the 4 901s as long as the amp wasn’t clipping.
Cool story. Sounds like your amps didn't have enough energy reserve in its caps to make it through those spurious sounds. I bet the neighbors loved you. :-) I'm fortunate, my next door neighbor is a retired aircraft mechanic so loud noises don't bother him. :-) Now if you ended up selling your system to someone who lived where it was cold most of the time it would be a win-win situation for him. :-)
foxpup The transformer in the amp weighed 41 pounds, half the weight of the whole amplifier! The filter caps were huge, I don’t remember their capacitance though. I clipped the amp when I really cranked it up, and had 4 ohms per side. The real problem was because of all the bass boost, 18dB is 64 times the power requirement, and 400+ watts was not nearly enough when music with lots of bass was played loud. I had an old couple across the street who would put their hands over their ears when they were outside walking their dog. Enough said? 😊🍻🤪
So why does the JBL Partybox 1000 output 1,100watts of sound power but the specs say it only consumes 150watts of supply power? OR is that a misprint and should be 1,500 watts of power?
100 watt incandescent light bulbs aren't manufactured or imported anymore. But yet there are still tons of them available to buy. My 13-bulb kitchen light used to give off spotlight stage burns lol. Thank goodness for dimmer switches and LED bulbs! And thank Sony-goodness for a stack of TA-N77ES amps to offset the money that the LEDs save 😆 METERS! ...not "100 CM" meters, "needle" meters. Gotta see that power distribution go bye bye as the music plays louder and louder 👋🏼
Big-ass meters is what I miss about using the Carver M-500. The Adcom 555's are better amps, but I sure miss seeing the needles moving, even if not much once I went with the efficient ADS L-series line of loudspeakers.
I have been power shamed for my Class A, 400 watts in for 25 watts out power amps. A couple of points. If you can afford a $5k to $10k (or even a $1k) amplifier, the power it uses is not going to break you, or destroy the environment. Second point. Do they throw off heat? Absolutely. Is it enough to heat up a room? Not even close.
I listen to my system 3-4 times a week and it's usually for 3 hours or more. I may only intend to listen for an hour but I keep finding interesting stuff to listen to and the sound is so engaging it's just hard to stop. BTW if you want to talk efficiency how about a tube preamp? My Rogue RP5 has 4ea 12au7's, it does not list the power input so I just measured it using my Killawatt meter. With the unit front panel switch off (but the rear power switch on it draws 2 watts, when you power up the preamp with the front panel switch it draws 45.2 watts - the case gets pretty warm after a few hours. I would say the output power of this preamp is in the milliwatt area at best so that leaves us with abysmal power efficiency. My PS Audio DAC is solid state so I'm sure it's better then that but in either case I am willing to spend the money because the sound is just so good. The Stellar m700's do draw about 23w in standby so I usually switch them off at the rear panel, I turn everything on an hour or two before listening. There is a definite change in the sound between the 5 minute mark and the 60 minute mark.
Creating sound does not take a lot of energy. As one of my college physics professors said: If you fill all the seats at Wembley Stadium (he was British) and had everyone sing at their loudest, you would put out enough energy to raise the temperature of a cup of tea one degree.
My quartet of Onkyo M-504 Type-A amplifiers keeps my basement movie room nice and warm in the winter with a similar need for more air conditioning in the summer...so I guess its a wash for energy consumption, more or less :-) ...real joy to listen too as well, not as classy as the PS audio stuff but an amp in the hand is worth two way over in Colorado...unless one is in Colorado...then one simply must visit the store (when this whole CCP-Virus trouble is over) :-)
The early Dynaco power amps specified their Power Consumption, in addition to their Power Ouutput. Nice to know, but one was going to listen to music regardless of power consumption, anyway!
Hello Sir, We have seen Professional Amplifier like 2*2000W @ 4Ohm where as the input power cable of the amplifier can be connected to 15A sockets. How this is possible ? Is there any guide the RMS Power output of Amplifier to the AC Power input to amploifier? This helps to select the generator size for outdoor live event where i always feeling we using oversized generators.
The maximum theoretical efficiency of a conventional amp is 50% w/ sine waves and full power. But unless the power going into the speakers is unusual, it's more a question of bias, idle draw. OTOH the low power rated amps that sound huge are biased hot...
One thing I'm confused about, the big dog live power amps say that they can put out 20,000 watts, while only consuming 6,600 watts... There must be an asterik in the specification sheet or something
@@thefattysplace they are even if they were peak values, how do you end up with more power than you started with? I’m pretty sure that breaks the laws of physics
@@scottyo64 that's why alot of music today is made to be listen to in a car. Concert Hall music is still big tho because that's where musicians really make there money. [Fuck ticket master btw]
ive got Focal K2 series components in front. Focal K2 coaxial rears. 2 Illusion 12"subs. Mosconi DSP all powered by Mosconi Zero amps. my system wins trophies. lets talk home...moving your speakers around, acoustical treatment, regenerator, cables, all thats needed. and it all makes a difference. but im tellin you.....till you heard a car stereo with great speakers, great amps & a tuner who knows what hes doin with a DSP.....youve never known magic.
It's not what you think. Read his very amusing book and you will see what I mean. For bits there I felt like I was reading Tom Sawyer...it's that entertaining. :-)
I think the best compromise efficiency/sound-quality for regular gear is Class AB amps. Sure you can say a Devialet sounds great and it's Class D but that's a 10 k € amp putting out 150 W. For regular people at regular prices a good 100 W Class AB is a few thousand $ and it's all you need. It sounds really good...doesn't get too hot...quite efficient (60% or so)..and it doesn't break the bank.
Sir which has a greater electricity consumption 2 pcs power amplifier total of 1200 RMS both use at the same time...OR... a 1pc/single power amplifier that has the same RMS of 1200 RMS?? Thank you
That would depend on what class amplifiers they are. Provided they are of the same design/class, then it would be about the same. I.e 2*class-d amplifiers would be near enough the same as a single class d amplifier. However unless you can bridge the 2 amplifiers, you won't have 1*1200w, but 2*600w.
You miss one thing, for your Class D Amp, if you don't need 1200W output, but something more reasonably like 50W, you consume 50W+ electricity, say, 55W. However, for your 200W Class A Amp, no matter how much is the output, it consumes the FULL power input, like what you said, perhaps, 450W, all the time.
I recently bought a Panasonic PMX90 CD player. In the manual and on the back of the main unit it says it draws 40W. Yet the specs say the system can output 60 W per channel (3 Ohm), 1 kHz, 10% THD / total 120W RMS. How is that possible? Is it only marketing babble? What is the real power of the system?
Well, first off I think you might be getting confused. No CD player I am familiar with outputs power into a speaker, o I am not certain what label you're actually looking at.
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 The player that I have is an 'all in one' unit. It has a CD player and an amplifier in one box. It does not need an external amplifier, you plug the speakers directly to the 'play'er' itself.
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 Is there any way I can contact you outside of RUclips to send you the link to specs? I tried to leave it in a comment here but it seems RUclips is deleting any comments that include links to other websites.
I read a thread about these Panasonic systems, and apparently the 40w is the wattage consumed at normally listening levels. Iirc they call it 'nominal input power consumption'?
efficient speakers. just because they make 70 w tube amps doesnt mean we need to have them. most modern speakers are far less efficient than in the early per transistor days.. 2watts is a lot of power w the right design imo
With compact fluorescent and LED lamps replacing incandescents, lighting electrical loads have been dropping for years. The major home power draws are now air conditioning and resistance heating. I am probably going to switch to a gas range and dryer when I need new appliances. In Denver the power consumed by the city as a whole would be dropping except for the high consumption of marijuana grow facilities and their banks of high pressure sodium lights. (For security reasons, they cannot grow outdoors or in traditional greenhouses.) I agree that small appliances and entertainment devices consume a trivial percentage of the electricity used.
@@paullazarro531 Oddly enough LED's are not significantly more efficient than high pressure sodium lamps on a lumens per watt basis. They have a better color rendering, but the plants don't much care. Or perhaps they do.. thehighestcrop.com/hps-vs-led/
Bill Kenney completely agree. Im hoping class d will find a way to be at par with class a or class a/b. As for now, im not buying into the class d market.
It seems to me that the power consumption of his 1200W 85% efficient amplifier is an excellent match for the likely 15A Circuit breaker in the breaker-box....coincidence?...I doubt it. :-) 1200W/85% = 1411W
@@thefattysplace If you've got more than one of them, you might want to set up a power-on sequence so they don't all charge their capacitors at the same time. :-) --- what I do with my four Onkyo Class-A space-heaters. 🙂 Personally, I prefer to build for such extreme situations described and then add a factor of x2 for safety....some would say that's way-overbuilding but it keeps trouble from cascading. :-)
@@thefattysplace The model I have four of is the Onkyo M-504 power amplifier. (driving my 7.1 channel home theater audio) It is technically rated at 165 real continuous watts per channel but it has HUGE capacitors and can approach surges of a thousand watts for moments. The thing I love about it is the 120 dB s/n ratio, something that was pretty darn special back in the 1990's when I bought them used. I fell in love with those huge sultry VU meters and never looked back. That said you cannot turn them all on at the same time without blowing popping the GFI, but I've got a trick for dealing with that. :-) Back in the days these things were made only a class-A amplifier could produce power and super-high S/N but they sure heat up the room - wonderful in the winter, not so much in the summer. :-) This design may deviate slightly from pure class-A but I have no idea how it would be different. No volume control, just pure power with a noise floor so low you just can't hear it even though it is always balls-out full-on. Sweet fidelity. :-) Yes I am biased. Fortunately the wife likes them a lot too so I don't need to worry about her getting jealous. :-)
@@foxpup oh they do look like nice bits of kit! And at 800w power consumption I can see why you have troubles in the US! Would be ok here in the UK. About 41% efficiency which is great for such an amp!!
Everyone should now know that regular Class-AB amplifiers are very inefficient and Class-A is even more ineffective and that Class-D is very effective! LED bulb is class-D and incandescent bulb is Class-AB and class-A
@@paullazarro531 No problems getting a Class-D to have natural sound! Yes there are many Class-D amplifiers on Ebay that are just garbage! But that does not mean that Class-D cannot have natural sound if it is well designed. Why do you think ps audio makes Clasd-D amplifiers? They can make a good Class-D with good sound!! it depends on the end result coming out of the speaker! all equipment has its own sound
Class D technology has come a long way, and the MOSFETs can switch at much higher speeds than they used to be able to, so the sound quality from them is improving all the time.
Hi Paul, can you technically use two av recivers as a pre am and a power amp? i have a spare av reciever and wanted to know if it is something you have hear been done..cheers
Where we can sometimes get confused or "misled", especially if one is very impressionable and/or uninformed, is by companies that totally *bullshit* rate their amps, claiming to have MORE total "RMS" power OUTPUT than what you can even safely draw from a standard electrical outlet! Lol!... I have seen this sort of B.S. rating among cheaper, lower quality, lesser known brands, and *especially* among some of the so-called, "Pro-Audio" brands and gear!... I think that recent "trend" is due in part to younger consumers NOT taking the time to understand the technical aspects of anything anymore, on average, and so the manufacturers that do that are simply praying off of the "average, uninformed consumer" who doesn't know any better than to not always just "trust the numbers", in order to sell their products, which is very unethical, IMO!
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is your friend. It makes a lot of things work. If heat didn't spread out, it wouldn't leave the source and help it cool. :-)
@@foxpup Join 'The Friends of Entropy'. Embrace the beauty of apparent chaos: the jagged arcs of a lightning flash following unseen resistance gradients; the laughing, splashing flow of water in a boulder strewn stream bed; the flickering flames in a campfire; the swirl of the cream (well, half and half) in a hot cup of coffee. But know also when to get out of the way.
@@foxpup Also a phrasing of the 3 Laws of Thermodynamics that I rather like: 1st Law: "You can't win, the best you can do is break even." 2nd Law: "You can only break even at absolute zero." 3rd Law: You can never reach absolute zero." And the more recently added 4th Law: "Everything takes longer and costs more." It was originally Khufu's (a.k.a. Cheops) Law: "Nothing gets built on time or within budget", but it was upgraded to 4 Law status because it was determined to be universally applicable.
Class D have very sensitives transistors things in them. They get sort circuuited and wreck when the path cable from the effects processors toughes the adap[ter for the SPEAKON adapter. Now it does nto works and they have to get a new amplifiers. Probableyu a used Peavey fromt he 1980s. Dre. Wallach has medicines for arthritis. He is on Coast to coast 2wtice a monthe. THNAKES YOURE AND THUBS UPS!
A modern LED light bulb draws around 10 watts for similar light output to an old fashioned incandescent 100 watt bulb. Incandescent bulbs are largely banned for genera use, except for specialist use. It's a bit rich Paul talking about Hi-Fi energy efficiency, when he previously promoted wasting energy through standby! 👎 I'm all for using power wisely and conserving it as far as possible, not only to save money on one's energy bills, but also to protect the environment! Now, for the usual criticism and hate comments ...... 😂😂😂
Paul your answer wasn't even an answer. This guy wrote in asking what a company looks to produce regarding Watts out of an amplifier and Watts that is consuming out of the wall. You go off on a tangent talking about your power amplifiers and the efficiency of them. You did not answer the question. Secondly, your class D 1200 w amplifier is a boat load of Overkill and by the way it weighs 27 lb which isn't exactly heavy in the audio file world. When listening to speakers at roughly 90 DB I seen on your own a power plant at one of my friends house that it's just drawing 120 watts. You're playing the numbers game with making a 1200 watt amplifier. It's like saying you created a car with 1000 horsepower but yet the top miles per hour in your town is 55 miles per hour. Plus if you even pulled all those Watts out of the wall you would trip Breakers in your house LOL
But you are assuming that the amp would be used at full power. On a continuous tone. Highly unlikely in a house environment. Also does your 2kw kettle trip the fuses? No?
Inefficient class A tube amps actually don't waste electricity, they just double as a heater and a night light 😁
my sentiments exactly...particularly satsifying when it's cold out...happiness is a warm puppy/amplifier
@@foxpup The same goes for home lighting: we don't want our homes to look like a doctor's office. Being brutally efficient with lighting often takes away the coziness of a living space.
@@siangmingalexlau8220 I dare to say that the efficiency of LED lights has made people light up sites even more than they did with classic bulbs, to the point that I really think they end up using MORE electricity than before while lighting everything up like a carnival and discovering all kinds of new places to illuminate. That sure is my experience in my neighborhood which is a bit of a frustration since I like to look at stuff up in the night sky. I'm not exactly innocent on the matter myself but I do sometime pine for the days of the old light bulbs and tiny neon illuminated switches and such. Yes, sometimes less is more.
@J Fz If I understand class A ampliffiers, they pretty well use the same amount of energy no matter how much power gets sent to the speakers, large or small. Naturally they get more efficient when you work them hard and are grotesquely inneficient for small sounds. True class A amps are rare. Most have power supply tricks to make them more efficient.
@J Fz I would expect the cladd-D amp that Paul moved over on top of the other one will sip very little power when it is being quiet-ish and will only draw a lot when it's being loud, all the way up to 1411W = 1200W/85% at the extreme.
It's the saddest thing in the world if somebody quits hifi because of the electricity bill...
Even more sad than seadogs whose skin is pulled off while they are still alive? Or ISIS drowning some men in a cage in a pool?
@@Engineer9736 Seadogs? You mean the boats?
@@Engineer9736 Yes much sadder. The environment should have no consideration in Hi Fi.
Not sure I'm going to get on a guilt trip because of the amount of electricity my audio gear uses. It's an insignificant amount of power compared to what a typical household uses. Do enjoy Paul's videos.
I can't agree more. Everybody has something they love to do, hey even criminals, just kidding. Even the enviromentalist beat the world up a little. I use LED bubs in my house......because I like them. My amp draws a whole lot less than my old incandescent bulbs did. So, I'm still ahead of the game. My music keeps me home, happy and cheerful all through the year. Enjoy!
Yes, it's insignificant power compared to the HVAC load.
I've had some serious heat issues with Class A in the past and as power is used continuously, you can end up keeping your AC running more just to cool the room from the extra heat of the amp. If your class A amp is using 500 Watts and you live in a hot climate, you can expect to use extra another >700 Watts on the AC to keep the room cool. If you keep your amp on 24/7, it starts counting as a cost on your electric bill.
I ran an experiment. I wanted to see if I could get acclimated to colder indoor temps during winter.
I stuck with it for an entire season. When I was uncomfortable I just grinned and beared it. And when I felt fine for a few days, I'd turn the thermostat down by a degree.
By the end, 55 degrees was mostly fine, and I only decided to stop due to boredom and the fact that much lower isn't recommended for homes.
What I realized is that you do get acclimated over time, but the humidity, your hunger level, your energy and tiredness level, and the types of fabric you wear all have a dramatic effect on how long it takes to plateau and become adjusted to the new normal.
The energy savings alone was far larger than any preference of electronics I considered.
There is the ELECTRIC CHAGCE nad for lots of electricty the DEMAND CHARGE. The de3mand meter is somethung like 90perfent fo full scale in 15 minutes, if I remember correctly. Maybe 10 cents a kilowatt hour and 10 dollara per KVA ofev whatever hte KVA demand limuits is. They use cdapacotores to get the KVA close to the KW. THNAKES YOU, THUMBBS USP!
@Fat Rat I'll bring the graham crackers and the chocolate bars. We can make s'mores.
@Fat Rat Nah, not really. It's not really audio related, but it was just a suggestion for those trying to save a ton of energy if you're concerned about your audio amp preference. :)
It was a "cool experiment" and I learned that the human body truly does try to regulate itself and experience a state of comfort though the long term conditions can be less than what was previously thought of as ideal.
I kinda knew this because it seems as winter nears its end the temperature maybe colder on a particular day, than what I experienced in December, but I require less clothing. It seems those very cold January and February days makes the less cold days of March much easier to bear. But I wasn't sure if this translated to indoor temperatures. I thought that maybe the human body always needs a stable 68 to 72 indoors as a way to reach maximum comfort. It really doesn't.
It was pretty easy and I only kept turning down the thermostat a degree once I felt fine again. The first 3 days after a temp decrease went back and forth. I'd often feel cold the first day or maybe the second day, fine the next, ever so slightly chilly the next day, and then each day after was easier. If I felt like I didn't notice the temperature in the room for about 3 days I'd turn down the temp another degree.
Rarely, I'd feel really cold. When that happened I'd just put on another layer or even a hat. And sleeping was easy as well. I always used the same two or three blankets.
In the summer, I also let it run a little warm (74 or so), but make sure the humidity is way down. Sweating is gross so I can't play with extremes like I did in the winter.
Now, the lowest I go in winter is 60. 55 takes too much dedication and too many moments of discomfort. Those last 5 degrees takes about as long to get adjusted to than the entire 12 degree drop from 72 to 60.
Now you know way too much about the "Jimmy Carter way," lol. After decades of scoffing and rolling my eyes at people who did this, I had to see what would happen. I found it fun; lame I know.
@Fat Rat stay safe. Don't let a snake bite ya or a roo punch you.
If they want a break from the heat, tell them the neighbors have air conditioning. :)
Fascinating subject and IMO Paul did a great job here explaining the PS Audio side of things. Correct me if I’m wrong but Paul participates in the design of his amps but he has a head engineer that does most of the heavy lifting. His name escapes me. And I think from time to time he has contracted with outside designers for some of this products.
I’d pay airfare and overnight hotel room costs to see the PS Audio head design engineer and Nelson Pass ( Threshold, Pass Labs ) in a civil give and take discussion and take questions from the audience. I’ve spent hours with Nelson listening to his philosophy on audio amplifier design. I‘ve owned a number of his products over the years.
To boil all this down. A Nelson Pass amp will have an idle power of about 50% of rated output. So a Pass Labs 100W power amp with its input shorted will draw probably a little more then 50W doing nothing. And something over 100W running at full power. The PS Audio amp Paul presented in this video probably draws under 10W with its input shorted out. And something over it’s rated output at full output.
So there the discussion begins. And it would be fun to listen to. Which is better? I think the Pass amps are a little more costly then PS Audio. Are they better? Well there’s the spirited discussion isn’t it.
One advantage of a Pass amp is that it can double as a space heater during the winter.
We are concerned with the heat output here in Arizona. I have a pair of Class D amps I use during the summer because they put out almost no heat, Tubes or Class A the rest of the year.
My little SET which is class A at about 12 watts per side is consuming roughly 150 from the wall continually. And it basically never changes. In fact it gets more efficient when you run full volume as it pretty much transfers heat to sound. The actual driver stage itself is probably 25% efficient peak, but there is also the warming plates and other losses.
Making a cup of coffee and two slices of toast on one morning will use more power than your system would consume all week listening every night
Personally, I love my music so much, I wouldn't care if my amp was 1% efficient if it sounded good. 😊
The world would.
Until you see your electricity bill. You'd be singing a different tune
That's good, because although your amp is probably much more efficient than that, your speakers may not be.
And presumably you don't care about Global Warming and Climate Change either? 👎
I'll just unscrew my neighbors post light, plug an extension cord into his patio recepticle and run an extension cord to my house. He owes me anyway and it wont cost me a dime. All will equal out.
A Toronto University Professor made a 1 watt amplifier he demonstrated that it was so extremely loud in the auditorium that everyone put their hands over their ears it was that LOUD !!!!!
Since a class A amp is continuously biased on, would not the current draw be constant regardless of the audio output level?
Yes.
Class A amps are *at least* halfway "on." The general consensus is to bias a Class A amplifier in such a way that the transistors/tubes allow some current to always pass across them, even at full output power. (Generally, with a solid-state amplifier, this equates to ~3/5 of the rail voltage on the output, 1/3 of the power supply output current, or whatever you are comfortable with in terms of thermal limit.) So there is a constant current draw at idle, but at maximum output power, that current draw can be nearly twice as much. This is not taking into account the other inefficiencies of the chosen amplifier topology.
So, for example, I have a little DIY JLH amplifier using a class A push-pull topology. (The nomenclature is a bit confusing, but it is true Class A.) The idle current is 1.22A, which means that, at maximum output power, the amplifier will swing up to 2.44A (load-dependent). The idle dissipation is about 50 watts per channel, max dissipation is about 80-90 watts per channel, but I'm only getting about 10W+10W of output power.
Nelson Pass has several good write-ups on his First Watt page in the "Articles" section if you wanna look further.
Say you live in a hot country in a 4 bedroom house where you need your ACs to be run 24/7 all year round which is close to 2 kW of power continuously. What's 100-200 W for a couple of hours going to do to your electricity bill? I think this is what Paul meant when he said to put things into perspective.
Class D.... 80%-90% efficiency all day!
Don't forget Class-H. It's efficient and sounds great too.
Channel Z: all static, all the time, everyday, forever! Or words to that effect. -- The B-52's
Stephen Smith
Haha! Nice. I was just spinning my old B52’s records the other day, namely the s/t and “wild planet”.
@@NickP333 And after the COVID-19 pandemic settles back to some semblance of the old normal, "Roam if you want to." ibid.
Stephen Smith
Yeah, hopefully this “cosmic thing” of a virus will be over sooner rather than later.
Back in the 70s when I started my audiophile journey I had a Bose 1801 power amplifier that weighed 82 pounds along with 4 Bose 901 speakers (2 per channel). The 901s used an equalizer that boosted the bass by 18dB at 35Hz and the lights in my house would dim when a bass drum would hit. This has got to be the most power hungry and inefficient setup in audio history. I sold everything after a couple of years use for the same amount that I bought it all for because I got sick of the amplifier clipping at more than 400 watts per channel output. An insane amount of power would need to be available probably over a kilowatt per channel to avoid clipping but the bass was unbelievable from the 4 901s as long as the amp wasn’t clipping.
Cool story. Sounds like your amps didn't have enough energy reserve in its caps to make it through those spurious sounds. I bet the neighbors loved you. :-) I'm fortunate, my next door neighbor is a retired aircraft mechanic so loud noises don't bother him. :-) Now if you ended up selling your system to someone who lived where it was cold most of the time it would be a win-win situation for him. :-)
foxpup The transformer in the amp weighed 41 pounds, half the weight of the whole amplifier! The filter caps were huge, I don’t remember their capacitance though. I clipped the amp when I really cranked it up, and had 4 ohms per side. The real problem was because of all the bass boost, 18dB is 64 times the power requirement, and 400+ watts was not nearly enough when music with lots of bass was played loud. I had an old couple across the street who would put their hands over their ears when they were outside walking their dog. Enough said? 😊🍻🤪
Great thumbnail picture! Like you’re calling for the higher power amp support before shipment. ✨❤️✨Hope you always do well, Buddy! In every way!!
So why does the JBL Partybox 1000 output 1,100watts of sound power but the specs say it only consumes 150watts of supply power? OR is that a misprint and should be 1,500 watts of power?
Because it's not quoting RMS power output. There's no such measurement of 'sound power', so they can literally make up a number.
100 watt incandescent light bulbs aren't manufactured or imported anymore. But yet there are still tons of them available to buy. My 13-bulb kitchen light used to give off spotlight stage burns lol. Thank goodness for dimmer switches and LED bulbs!
And thank Sony-goodness for a stack of TA-N77ES amps to offset the money that the LEDs save 😆
METERS!
...not "100 CM" meters, "needle" meters. Gotta see that power distribution go bye bye as the music plays louder and louder 👋🏼
Big-ass meters is what I miss about using the Carver M-500. The Adcom 555's are better amps, but I sure miss seeing the needles moving, even if not much once I went with the efficient ADS L-series line of loudspeakers.
@@trog69 Yay, another 555 fan!
1:00 Yes, lets make sure it had some ESD testing by using the Paul-body model! 😅
I have been power shamed for my Class A, 400 watts in for 25 watts out power amps. A couple of points. If you can afford a $5k to $10k (or even a $1k) amplifier, the power it uses is not going to break you, or destroy the environment. Second point. Do they throw off heat? Absolutely. Is it enough to heat up a room? Not even close.
Exactly, you don't buy a Buggati for fuel economy. My monoblock draws 1000W (500w each) when they are in idle.
@@mornecoetzee735 a monoblock shouldn't draw current when idle.
I listen to my system 3-4 times a week and it's usually for 3 hours or more. I may only intend to listen for an hour but I keep finding interesting stuff to listen to and the sound is so engaging it's just hard to stop.
BTW if you want to talk efficiency how about a tube preamp? My Rogue RP5 has 4ea 12au7's, it does not list the power input so I just measured it using my Killawatt meter. With the unit front panel switch off (but the rear power switch on it draws 2 watts, when you power up the preamp with the front panel switch it draws 45.2 watts - the case gets pretty warm after a few hours. I would say the output power of this preamp is in the milliwatt area at best so that leaves us with abysmal power efficiency. My PS Audio DAC is solid state so I'm sure it's better then that but in either case I am willing to spend the money because the sound is just so good.
The Stellar m700's do draw about 23w in standby so I usually switch them off at the rear panel, I turn everything on an hour or two before listening. There is a definite change in the sound between the 5 minute mark and the 60 minute mark.
Creating sound does not take a lot of energy. As one of my college physics professors said: If you fill all the seats at Wembley Stadium (he was British) and had everyone sing at their loudest, you would put out enough energy to raise the temperature of a cup of tea one degree.
class A is desirable for some musicians , hence my fathers two class A guitar amps , the third an old classA/B.
(all valve amps).
Thank you for a simple and concise answer :)
My quartet of Onkyo M-504 Type-A amplifiers keeps my basement movie room nice and warm in the winter with a similar need for more air conditioning in the summer...so I guess its a wash for energy consumption, more or less :-) ...real joy to listen too as well, not as classy as the PS audio stuff but an amp in the hand is worth two way over in Colorado...unless one is in Colorado...then one simply must visit the store (when this whole CCP-Virus trouble is over) :-)
Ah the BHK 250....I want one badly...
The early Dynaco power amps specified their Power Consumption, in addition to their Power Ouutput. Nice to know, but one was going to listen to music regardless of power consumption, anyway!
Hello Sir, We have seen Professional Amplifier like 2*2000W @ 4Ohm where as the input power cable of the amplifier can be connected to 15A sockets. How this is possible ? Is there any guide the RMS Power output of Amplifier to the AC Power input to amploifier? This helps to select the generator size for outdoor live event where i always feeling we using oversized generators.
Examine the inflammatory foods in your diet for arthritic pain relief, I was amazed at the improvement in mine!
Any specific tips on the changes you made?
Have you though of water-cooling?
The maximum theoretical efficiency of a conventional amp is 50% w/ sine waves and full power. But unless the power going into the speakers is unusual, it's more a question of bias, idle draw. OTOH the low power rated amps that sound huge are biased hot...
So would it be safe to say my 1991 denon poa 2400 class A amplifier is a power pig, I thought so anyway. My JBL L100,s love it.
One thing I'm confused about, the big dog live power amps say that they can put out 20,000 watts, while only consuming 6,600 watts... There must be an asterik in the specification sheet or something
Or they are not quoting RMS values.
@@thefattysplace they are even if they were peak values, how do you end up with more power than you started with? I’m pretty sure that breaks the laws of physics
@@Jakeman90210 they might not be quoting peak to peak values. It might be some made up measurement scale, which isn't that unusual.
What's you'd thoughts on car audio vs home audio?
Car is a terrible environment for audio but the place most people listen to music.
@@scottyo64 that's why alot of music today is made to be listen to in a car. Concert Hall music is still big tho because that's where musicians really make there money. [Fuck ticket master btw]
ive got Focal K2 series components in front. Focal K2 coaxial rears. 2 Illusion 12"subs. Mosconi DSP all powered by Mosconi Zero amps. my system wins trophies.
lets talk home...moving your speakers around, acoustical treatment, regenerator, cables, all thats needed.
and it all makes a difference.
but im tellin you.....till you heard a car stereo with great speakers, great amps & a tuner who knows what hes doin with a DSP.....youve never known magic.
How can anyone explain: active speaker power input is 75W, but peak audio out is 1300W (class d mainly of Mackie Thump15a), how can it be possible?
LOL.....would love to know what 'shenanegans' you did as a kid has that made your wrists weak !
It's not what you think. Read his very amusing book and you will see what I mean. For bits there I felt like I was reading Tom Sawyer...it's that entertaining. :-)
I think the best compromise efficiency/sound-quality for regular gear is Class AB amps.
Sure you can say a Devialet sounds great and it's Class D but that's a 10 k € amp putting out 150 W.
For regular people at regular prices a good 100 W Class AB is a few thousand $ and it's all you need. It sounds really good...doesn't get too hot...quite efficient (60% or so)..and it doesn't break the bank.
Sir which has a greater electricity consumption 2 pcs power amplifier total of 1200 RMS both use at the same time...OR... a 1pc/single power amplifier that has the same RMS of 1200 RMS?? Thank you
That would depend on what class amplifiers they are. Provided they are of the same design/class, then it would be about the same. I.e 2*class-d amplifiers would be near enough the same as a single class d amplifier. However unless you can bridge the 2 amplifiers, you won't have 1*1200w, but 2*600w.
You miss one thing, for your Class D Amp, if you don't need 1200W output, but something more reasonably like 50W, you consume 50W+ electricity, say, 55W. However, for your 200W Class A Amp, no matter how much is the output, it consumes the FULL power input, like what you said, perhaps, 450W, all the time.
I recently bought a Panasonic PMX90 CD player. In the manual and on the back of the main unit it says it draws 40W.
Yet the specs say the system can output 60 W per channel (3 Ohm), 1 kHz, 10% THD / total 120W RMS.
How is that possible? Is it only marketing babble? What is the real power of the system?
Well, first off I think you might be getting confused. No CD player I am familiar with outputs power into a speaker, o I am not certain what label you're actually looking at.
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 The player that I have is an 'all in one' unit. It has a CD player and an amplifier in one box. It does not need an external amplifier, you plug the speakers directly to the 'play'er' itself.
@@23pawlik Wow. That's a first for me. Ok, can you send me a link so I can see what the answer to your question is?
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 Is there any way I can contact you outside of RUclips to send you the link to specs? I tried to leave it in a comment here but it seems RUclips is deleting any comments that include links to other websites.
I read a thread about these Panasonic systems, and apparently the 40w is the wattage consumed at normally listening levels. Iirc they call it 'nominal input power consumption'?
Class A tube amp has @ 10% efficiency....in hot weather it’s worse because of increased A/C to offset the heat introduced into living area
efficient speakers. just because they make 70 w tube amps doesnt mean we need to have them. most modern speakers are far less efficient than in the early per transistor days.. 2watts is a lot of power w the right design imo
With compact fluorescent and LED lamps replacing incandescents, lighting electrical loads have been dropping for years. The major home power draws are now air conditioning and resistance heating. I am probably going to switch to a gas range and dryer when I need new appliances. In Denver the power consumed by the city as a whole would be dropping except for the high consumption of marijuana grow facilities and their banks of high pressure sodium lights. (For security reasons, they cannot grow outdoors or in traditional greenhouses.) I agree that small appliances and entertainment devices consume a trivial percentage of the electricity used.
Lots of grow ops use LED lighting too.
@@paullazarro531 Oddly enough LED's are not significantly more efficient than high pressure sodium lamps on a lumens per watt basis. They have a better color rendering, but the plants don't much care. Or perhaps they do.. thehighestcrop.com/hps-vs-led/
Actual Title : Power Amplifier Efficiency - What's In and What's Out...
Iv'e Got The Power..
This is the reason why im waiting for class d to match class a or class a/b in sound quality but more affordable price. Cant afford $$$$ for now.
A decently designed Solid State Class A power amp will out perform even the best of Class D amps every time. Problem is cost and effeciency.
Bill Kenney completely agree. Im hoping class d will find a way to be at par with class a or class a/b. As for now, im not buying into the class d market.
I didn't know the BHK 250 was class A ...
It's class AB. Most class AB amplifiers run in class A the first 0.1 to 1-5 watts
@@soring5880 Paul did say that it is class A but what you said explains why it has the efficiency of class AB .
@@leekumiega6576 , more than that... he said "Pure Class A"
Green and audiophile, a contradiction in terms
like..... how water heater!
It seems to me that the power consumption of his 1200W 85% efficient amplifier is an excellent match for the likely 15A Circuit breaker in the breaker-box....coincidence?...I doubt it. :-) 1200W/85% = 1411W
Not really, as it doesn't draw that many Watts continuously. You would need it on full volume/output for that to be an issue.
@@thefattysplace If you've got more than one of them, you might want to set up a power-on sequence so they don't all charge their capacitors at the same time. :-) --- what I do with my four Onkyo Class-A space-heaters. 🙂
Personally, I prefer to build for such extreme situations described and then add a factor of x2 for safety....some would say that's way-overbuilding but it keeps trouble from cascading. :-)
@@foxpup you have four 1200w class A amps? Didn't know onkyo made such an amplifier?
@@thefattysplace The model I have four of is the Onkyo M-504 power amplifier. (driving my 7.1 channel home theater audio) It is technically rated at 165 real continuous watts per channel but it has HUGE capacitors and can approach surges of a thousand watts for moments. The thing I love about it is the 120 dB s/n ratio, something that was pretty darn special back in the 1990's when I bought them used. I fell in love with those huge sultry VU meters and never looked back. That said you cannot turn them all on at the same time without blowing popping the GFI, but I've got a trick for dealing with that. :-) Back in the days these things were made only a class-A amplifier could produce power and super-high S/N but they sure heat up the room - wonderful in the winter, not so much in the summer. :-) This design may deviate slightly from pure class-A but I have no idea how it would be different. No volume control, just pure power with a noise floor so low you just can't hear it even though it is always balls-out full-on. Sweet fidelity. :-) Yes I am biased. Fortunately the wife likes them a lot too so I don't need to worry about her getting jealous. :-)
@@foxpup oh they do look like nice bits of kit! And at 800w power consumption I can see why you have troubles in the US! Would be ok here in the UK. About 41% efficiency which is great for such an amp!!
Everyone should now know that regular Class-AB amplifiers are very inefficient and Class-A is even more ineffective and that Class-D is very effective!
LED bulb is class-D and incandescent bulb is Class-AB and class-A
That is exactly why Class A sound so much better.
Class D is like a fluorescent bulb more efficient but less natural looking.
@@paullazarro531 No problems getting a Class-D to have natural sound! Yes there are many Class-D amplifiers on Ebay that are just garbage! But that does not mean that Class-D cannot have natural sound if it is well designed. Why do you think ps audio makes Clasd-D amplifiers? They can make a good Class-D with good sound!!
it depends on the end result coming out of the speaker! all equipment has its own sound
@@ford1546 A little food for thought.
ruclips.net/video/hG3ShA417Kw/видео.html at5:30min.
ruclips.net/video/DIl3yRmJ-fU/видео.html at1:00min
Class D technology has come a long way, and the MOSFETs can switch at much higher speeds than they used to be able to, so the sound quality from them is improving all the time.
Those 75 WPC single ended class-A tube amps still comsumes way less power than an electric arc furnace used to refine aluminum.
**BEST COMMENT**
Hi Paul, can you technically use two av recivers as a pre am and a power amp? i have a spare av reciever and wanted to know if it is something you have hear been done..cheers
i can tell its only 50% efficient because i dont have to turn my radiator on in the same room anymore...
Where we can sometimes get confused or "misled", especially if one is very impressionable and/or uninformed, is by companies that totally *bullshit* rate their amps, claiming to have MORE total "RMS" power OUTPUT than what you can even safely draw from a standard electrical outlet! Lol!...
I have seen this sort of B.S. rating among cheaper, lower quality, lesser known brands, and *especially* among some of the so-called, "Pro-Audio" brands and gear!... I think that recent "trend" is due in part to younger consumers NOT taking the time to understand the technical aspects of anything anymore, on average, and so the manufacturers that do that are simply praying off of the "average, uninformed consumer" who doesn't know any better than to not always just "trust the numbers", in order to sell their products, which is very unethical, IMO!
Keep in mind, how many of us during normal WFA or not listening are at levels using more then a few watts?
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics will get you if you don't watch out!
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is your friend. It makes a lot of things work. If heat didn't spread out, it wouldn't leave the source and help it cool. :-)
@@foxpup Join 'The Friends of Entropy'. Embrace the beauty of apparent chaos: the jagged arcs of a lightning flash following unseen resistance gradients; the laughing, splashing flow of water in a boulder strewn stream bed; the flickering flames in a campfire; the swirl of the cream (well, half and half) in a hot cup of coffee. But know also when to get out of the way.
@@foxpup Also a phrasing of the 3 Laws of Thermodynamics that I rather like:
1st Law: "You can't win, the best you can do is break even."
2nd Law: "You can only break even at absolute zero."
3rd Law: You can never reach absolute zero."
And the more recently added 4th Law: "Everything takes longer and costs more."
It was originally Khufu's (a.k.a. Cheops) Law: "Nothing gets built on time or within budget", but it was upgraded to 4 Law status because it was determined to be universally applicable.
very informative sir
Class D have very sensitives transistors things in them. They get sort circuuited and wreck when the path cable from the effects processors toughes the adap[ter for the SPEAKON adapter. Now it does nto works and they have to get a new amplifiers. Probableyu a used Peavey fromt he 1980s. Dre. Wallach has medicines for arthritis. He is on Coast to coast 2wtice a monthe. THNAKES YOURE AND THUBS UPS!
Wednesday shenanigan Spec-2
A modern LED light bulb draws around 10 watts for similar light output to an old fashioned incandescent 100 watt bulb. Incandescent bulbs are largely banned for genera use, except for specialist use.
It's a bit rich Paul talking about Hi-Fi energy efficiency, when he previously promoted wasting energy through standby! 👎
I'm all for using power wisely and conserving it as far as possible, not only to save money on one's energy bills, but also to protect the environment!
Now, for the usual criticism and hate comments ...... 😂😂😂
My Quad Class A current dumper takes 500 watts all the time and gives out 140 watts RMS. Sounds wicked though...
Imagine how wonderful that is in Iceland...cheap energy and a need to keep warm :-)
Paul your answer wasn't even an answer. This guy wrote in asking what a company looks to produce regarding Watts out of an amplifier and Watts that is consuming out of the wall. You go off on a tangent talking about your power amplifiers and the efficiency of them. You did not answer the question. Secondly, your class D 1200 w amplifier is a boat load of Overkill and by the way it weighs 27 lb which isn't exactly heavy in the audio file world. When listening to speakers at roughly 90 DB I seen on your own a power plant at one of my friends house that it's just drawing 120 watts. You're playing the numbers game with making a 1200 watt amplifier. It's like saying you created a car with 1000 horsepower but yet the top miles per hour in your town is 55 miles per hour. Plus if you even pulled all those Watts out of the wall you would trip Breakers in your house LOL
Paul pretends he can barely lift the amp LOL.
@@paullazarro531 I know...27lbs!
But you are assuming that the amp would be used at full power. On a continuous tone. Highly unlikely in a house environment. Also does your 2kw kettle trip the fuses? No?
And I think it's kg, not lb!
@@thefattysplace nope. Its pounds.
So don't buy a class A or B.
The arthritis is from a vegetarian diet. Sorry to say :/