Are “High Efficiency” Furnaces Worth It?
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- Опубликовано: 15 май 2024
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In this video I give you my opinion on high efficiency furnaces. Take it with a grain of salt, but I honestly think they aren't worth the extra money.
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ive been in building apartment maintenance for 20 years...dont waste your money on high efficiency for your home ...80% is the way to go...use that money you would have spent on better insulation etc...high efficiency makes sense for large complexes with many apartments but it all comes down to maintenance...ive had to do major repairs to 5 year old high efficiency stuff and ive had equipment installed in the 1980s still going strong...
Amen brother
I paid $300 more to go from 80 to 95% efficiency!
Soooooo!
Sorry, apartment managers/owners are NOTORIOUS for buying the absolute cheapest CRAP that they can because the equipment is on their dime while the cost to operate it is on the tenant. They couldn't care less if the tenant has to pay $1000/month for utilities.
Hey David, is that refrigerator in the background that GE from the pitstop? Signed your pal Rusty
I finally went from an evaporation cooler to refrigerated air. Needed a new furnace. Couldn't use the old one. I was always worrying about a cracked heat exchanger in the old one. So I got thinking about it and wired in the blower motor to the gas valve to start immediately upon the call for heat. Got room cool air for a couple minutes but other than that that furnace lasted over 30 years. I was depending on the thermal probe to roll over when the furnace warmed up to engage the blower motor. Well one day the switch didn't roll over to start the blower and the furnace got extremely hot. Could have burned my house down had there not been high temp manual reset over temp sensors. That's when I wired blower to turn on when the gas valve opened. Another thing I did was to use the probe as an over temp sensor and installed a timer to keep blower running for 5 minutes after gas valve shut down so heat exchanger cooled off. Well come replacement time my HVAC guy who is a friend of mine was sold on high efficiency units. I said no. All the extra work to try and get PVC piping through the basement and out the wall up in the floor joists was gonna be a real chore. And all the other things you mentioned I took into consideration weighing the energy savings over an 8O percenter. And the 8O percenter was an improvement over my old 60 percenter. And the 80 percenter is so much simpler in construction vs the high efficiency furnace. I didn't do any modifications to how the furnace operates so as not to void any warranty issues. The big thing is even with a simpler design and lower efficiency than the high efficiency furnace it has a control board with electronic components and relays for control of blower speeds in the heat and cool modes. On cool the blower motor runs at the highest speed. On heat it runs on a slower speed and on fan only setting on thermostat it runs on a different speed. And of course the flame sensing rod and flu temperature sensing so furnace warms up before blower turns on. The board also has blinking LEDs for trouble shooting problems. You can't get away from not having the board with the micro processor on any furnace. If they go junk, and they do, there's really no way to wire around it. A new board can cost upward if $200. And you as a consumer just can't go buy one at a supply house unless you are a bonified contractor. You probably can buy your own board or get the model number and shop around. They are relatively easy to change out. All the wiring plugs in except thermostat wire. There are terminal screws for that connection. But if you aren't handy and haven't a good understanding of how your furnace works, even if it is an 80 percenter, you're better off to hire a professional who will sell you a new board at considerable mark up and install it and test it and make sure it's operating correctly and is compatible with your furnace and the most important item is he has to warranty his part and installation, usually for a year.
Remember that your ROI numbers might drastically change as natural gas prices continue to increase. I'm in MN and the difference in efficiency adds up faster than someone in AZ.
I've been very happy with my Trane high efficiency furnace. I think a lot of people run into problems due to lack of yearly maintenance.
Hello from Minnesota as well crazy we are both watching furnace videos and both from same state what a storm we just had !
@@mplscarsales6652 We didn't get nearly as much as they were predicting. Kind of a let down to be honest! 😅
When we lived in SE Wisconsin, I replaced our old furnace with a 93% efficient furnace. Totally worth it. Lower gas bill, warmer home. This was several decades ago, however, and I bought it in the middle of summer(best price then).
Trane is also a reliable brand
Wait till it's time to replace the blower motor or draft inducer any money you saved and then alot more will go out the window.
Another point, this advice depends heavily on your location. For someone like me in northern mn, my high efficuency unit paid for itself in roughly 8 years. Furnace is on year 11, with no problems. as always, the biggest return on investment is from air sealing and insulation.
One thing you didn't consider is when it's a retro fit in an old house. Sometimes it's much cheaper and easier to run a PVC vent than a high temperature exhaust. Also, it would be pretty unlikely for both heat exchangers to fail at the same time. Usually the primary heat exchanger is the problem. On straight replacement, I agree with you.
Unless you're talking about Carrier and their clogged secondaries
Bingo. That's exactly our scenario. This house was built with a coal-burning water boiler. And that got replaced by electric heaters in all rooms. And that got replaced by modern HVAC ... zero opportunity to vent exhaust from an 80% furnace.
@@thenexthobbywhere did the coal burning rig vent to? Did they tear the chimney out when they went electric?
When the roof got replaced last time, they knocked it down from where it exited the roof so that the roof could be flat there. Up in the attic you can see what's left of the chimney. I like my 95% efficiency furnace. Hoping it's my last gas appliance soon.
@@thenexthobbyI have something similar in my house. It looks like there was two fire places, and the top is knocked off of both chimneys to probably reduce the cost of replacing the roof. I either have to go electric or high efficiency because the cost of venting would be drastically higher in an 80%. They only removed the very top of the chimney also, making it a pointless waste of space.
I was in the Supply House business for many years as well as many years in the field. I didn’t see a huge amount of warranty difference between 92% and 80% furnaces. They have similar components that fail, pressure switches and igniters. The boards are more expensive on the 92% and condensate free ups occur in attic installations, but in attics I would only install 80% furnaces. In the market I was in the cost upgrade was about 1500 which gas company rebates made up for the difference. If a chimney needed to be lined to meet code the PVC sidewall vent option made the installation cost less offsetting the $500.00 premium for a 92% furnace. The 95 to 97% gas furnaces with variable speeds and firing rates are costly and do have more issues. I would avoid them.
"The 95 to 97% gas furnaces with variable speeds and firing rates are costly and do have more issues."
Agree there, the more crap "features" the more trouble, that's why so many new fridges with the ice and water in the door, digital controls, and yada yada yada are THE worst ones that almost everyone has problems with. My fridge is about 15 years old by Summit, a BASIC fridge with top freezer, never had one problem with it.
Exactly, the 95% units have damn near the same components as the 80% units. You can buy a brand new 95% unit shipped to your door for $2000.
But what you are describing is CONTRACTOR price gouging, it's not the appliance itself that's at fault. I bought a new Goodman 80k 96% furnace for about $1200 and installed it myself, it replaced a 30 year old Lennox G11e 80% that took ALL it's combustion air from the room, and between cycles it's 5" flue caused cold air to drop down in- both aspects probably dropped that 80% down to 70% at best.
The Goodman takes all its air from outside, and there's NO 5" open flue.
@3:28 shows it perfectly- the open metal flue just like I had, it used to spill out fumes when the wind blew a certain way, and cold air was always coming down it between cycles.
The inducer motors can be purchased on-line, and easily installed yourself, it's like 4 screws and a couple of wires and a hose clamp, someone would have to be seriously incompetant if they can't replace one of those in a half hour themselves.
Heat exchangers ARE the furnace, if you have a cracked heat exchanger it's because the filter was all clogged up and it got too hot. A small crack in an exchanger is not an automatic junk yard deal anyway. If you had a bad exchanger its cheaper to just replace the whole furnace because the exchanger is going to cost like half the price of a new furnace anyway, the whole thing basically has to be taken apart just to replace it.
Thanks for the info.
The price difference between an 80% goodman or RunTru 95% or similar furnace is about a grand or so, which at the current gas rates here pays off pretty quickly. I do agree that the sales pitches that I've heard for a $4-$8k+ dual burner gas furnace are overkill unless you live in some kind of giant house and really want that.
The PVC piping is usually cheaper to run as well, since furnaces here tend to be shoved away in a basement without easy external vent locations and that 30 year old 80% duct is probably about to crumble. Just make sure the pitch and drainage is good, lots of 20 year old 90%+ around here.
If it's laying below a house with a duct just shooting off it might not be worth it if it'll just fail in 5 years from corrosion, crawlspaces are brutal if they aren't in good shape.
Yes, the majority of people on my channel aren’t going to replace their furnace. Some may and those are the ones who are going to save THOUSANDS. But majority are homeowners that just want more hvac knowledge. So when they are presented with their options from the price gouging contractor, with a 3-4K price difference, they will be informed. I appreciate the info you shared however! Cheers
Same here. I bought 95% 2-stage GOODMAN in 2006. It was about $300 maybe $400 more expensive than standard 80%. I installed it myself. My gas bill dropped by 65%. It paid for itself very first year.
As others have said, often times when our company offers a 90% furnace it's because the current system was horizontally vented in a crawl space and we don't have an 80% product we can do that with anymore. Also, with 80% furnaces we have 0 options for combustion air. Sometimes we find furnaces in cramped spaces in a home that simply will not pass code without more combustion air, sometimes we can solve this in simple ways with holes and grills covering them. Or we find an 80% a closet with the return on a side wall near the furnace. This is the worst case scenario because now we have to draw combustion air from the crawl space and the attic which starts to get even more complex.
While I agree with your thoughts in general. There is more subtlety to a 80% option vs 90% option than you represent here in this video. I realize this video is for laymen, but I think it is worth mentioning that there are valid reasons an HVAC contractor would recommend a 90% gas furnace in place of an 80% model that have nothing to do with efficiency and everything to do with passing inspection.
Precisely why we had to go hi-eff, our old boiler was a carbon monoxide disaster waiting to happen as well as outright dangerous. We removed our chimney which is too old, and had to have it vent somewhere. Our basement walls are 2 feet thick and fieldstone mixed with cement, so when we replaced the boiler we also got rid of the old natgas hot water heater & tank. Now we have the single hi-eff furnace providing hot water to the rads as well as our domestic hot water. Still was less than the other options and has paid for itself in the 10 years we’ve had it. With gas prices rising it’s probably saving us even more.
This guy normally makes decent videos, but he is DEAD WRONG with this one. He thinks condensing furnaces is a luxury feature, something that comes with the Carrier Infinity line.
It's why you shouldn't do DIY HVAC yourself when it comes to gas, unless you want to risk killing yourself.
@@sprockketsIn Maryland a Gasfitters license is separate from the plumbing license and from the HVAC license. I'm sure it's for this reason
😮Wow, an honest HAV/AC Technician 😊
I agree! My husband joined in with the heating and air-conditioning company back in 1991, because we already old rental homes, he knew how to do a lot of work, but he wanted to be certified and learn the extra. So he was hired into a company that trains on the job. He had two weeks training before he would go out to do installations. Well, after the two week training before he started out with a tech to go install air conditioning’s/furnaces, the company told him he would have to be a dishonest and sell products to people who don’t need them!! Products or parts! Well, this was paid training by the company. As soon as he heard that he let them know, he’s not that type of a person, and he can’t go out and be dishonest and fraud people! So he quit!!!
👍 thanks for the great videos! ❤️
most hvac contractors do not repair systems, they just want to sell new systems.
Would you happen to be in NJ and did your husband go with a large HVAC and plumbing outfit named with 2 initials and a 5 letter last name?
A man with integrity. I'm glad to see there are still some around.
That's the only thing to do for companies like that
32 years in the business and I agree with you a little. In my experience it wasn't "fraud". Management wanted higher $$$ at the end of our week/month. The larger the company the more we were pushed to sell service contacts, humidifiers, duct cleaning, etc. etc. I was never that guy. I got in, did the required work, got out and on to the next call. If a new unit was best, I would recommend it. I was the tech doing 10-15 calls a day compared to 6 for the "salesmen" techs. Unfortunately the large companies have to cover that BIG overhead and need to make every visit to a home count ($$$$). That "extra" stuff keeps the lights on is what they told us. I kept my $$ numbers up by quantity instead of "extra" sales. Life got easier when I went out on my own. I just had a van, tools, insurance and a bunch of knowledge and experience. No store front, secretary, HR, managers, department meetings, TV commercials, Christmas parties, etc. etc.. Most of my prices were about half of my previous employers. Same guy, did the same work, half the price. Your single man or 2 man operations are best if you get the right tech. Big companies come with BIG overhead that customers must pay for and the techs in the field must generate. So it's not "fraud" as much as it is covering overhead. I won't even get into incompetence of some techs. If they couldn't fix it, they would claim it needed to be replaced. But that's a different story.
Very helpful, and perfect timing. Recently bought an old home, and we've been fixing it up. We've been thinking about upgrading the HVAC system for better efficiency and to add AC. This has given us useful information to consider.
It is a fact high eff furnaces are more costly to repair. However do do save about 10% or more on your monthly bill. Buy a quality brand.
I love my high eff carrier dual stage DC. I bought it mainly for the power savings. I can select low med or high on the G option. The blower in low uses 30 watts. I leave it on often to help bring in a little fresh air. I have dogs and I smoke in the house. I think the main reason for premature failure is a bad install. I made them come back and redo the venting. It was leaking condensate back into the furnace because they didn't follow the instructions. If I didn't catch that it wouldn't have lasted two years. Also the installers didn't set up the WC pressures on both stages. I made them come back and do that too. My installer hated me because I knew what to look for.
This is interesting. I’ve had HE furnaces for many years in 2 different homes. In my current home, I replaced an 80% furnace 6 years ago with a 95%+ furnace and it’s been trouble free. It made heating my place much cheaper than the old furnace, though it did cost $1000 more than an 80% unit of the same brand. I’d say it’s paid off the difference.
If you’re on natural gas it’s doubtful you’ll ever see $1000.00 dollars back in energy saving’s before it begins to plug up and begin to produce high CO. Water and fire don’t mix. Wise up. It requires exotic materials to manufacture condensing furnaces. The cost of these materials is sure to outpace the cost of energy in spite of the government’s best efforts to make natural gas cost more.
@@defenderoftheuniversesame with heat pumps? I've got an air conditioner from the 90's that still works lol
@@defenderoftheuniverse no, it's a cheap Kenmore window unit
The more efficient the more devices that can fail. I'll stick with as simple as possible. The same goes with hot water heaters that are supposed to be high efficient. With dampers that close and open the exhaust to hold that heat in. Just another item that can fail. Uf it does daily your hot water heater is out of service until you replace a ridiculously priced damper motor.
How old were the units in both of the homes and how long did you live in each house?
This was the most honest video I seen as far… I have a buddy that works on this and has helped me understand this. Thank you for the video
Always known that it took too many years to break even, but I did not consider all the other factors you spoke about. Always appreciate learning something about the industry, especially since I make my living from construction. Many thanks
I have an 80s Hallmark oil fired hot air furnace. Service it myself. It is stupid simple and keeps working. It's in the ballpark of 81% efficient. I also have an oil fired standalone water heater that I service myself, and even replaced my 23 year old one myself. I also installed some Mr Cool mini-splits myself so I guess I'm living the DIY dream over here.
Heat exchangers on high efficiency furnaces come as an assembly the primary and secondary are one most furnace heat exchangers come with at least a 20 year heat exchanger warranty and sometimes a lifetime. They don’t have twice the parts and no modern furnace will last as long as ones from the 50s. High and standard efficiency share primary heat exchanger, inducer, hot surface ignitor, flame rod, orifices, pressure switches, blower motors, safety switches, gas valves and in shot burners. The only additional parts on a high efficiency is the secondary heat exchanger and condensate drainage system. Any Carrier/Bryant inducer is crazy expensive you happened to show the most expensive one compare Daikin/Goodman inducer prices 80%to 90% are very similar. You can buy a single stage high efficiency for a little more than a single stage 80% and don’t have to worry about lining the chimney. Standard efficiency furnaces are great for attics or in a place that venting isn’t practical.
I agree with what you said about verifying that a heat exchanger is bad. One HVAC company lied to me about this and almost sold me a $7,000 new furnace. I got a 2nd tech to look at it and it was a $10 hose that was cracked.
What are your thoughts on ducted heat pump systems, the type that's designed to work in very low temperatures - Mitsubishi h2i or Fujitsu aou? Any exposure/experience with them?
In defense of high efficiency furnaces, my Carrier 95.5% efficiency model has caused almost no grief in the 11 years since I had it installed. I replaced the flame sensor ($30) by myself. I had my doubts about the pressure switch ($60) so I replaced that at the same time. And that's it (knocking on wood). If I get at least another 11 years of service from the furnace that'll be good.
Your condensate trap will clog before then. $22 on Amazon.
@@cudadoug It's been cleaned at each fall inspection. So far, so good, but thanks for the heads up.
Carrier is my least favorite brand to service. Trane is number two. You can wait a few says if you need a part.
@@bills6946 Furnaces must be like vehicle brands. Some repair techs swear by them while others swear at them. ;)
58MXA series? You may get another 2-4yrs out of your heat exchangers. Carrier messed up so bad they gave lifetime warranty on those exchangers but they don't cover everything needed to replace them.
Thank you for the channel and the helpful information. We are completely at the mercy of the HVAC contractors when they make claims about all that is wrong or inoperable with our systems when it isn't entirely true. With your channel we are better informed to at least prevent getting completely taken advantage of.
Like you said, there are better ways to make use of our money than being scammed out of it.
Most importantly, it is the opportunity cost and poorer quality of life that is the outcome of scammy contractors. It isn't a victimless crime when contractors upsell you or lie about components needing replacement.
Thank you, we really appreciate your vídeos and hope you continue producing your very much needed content.
Blessings to you.
This was obvious to me 20+ years ago. I ask the guy I knew selling furnaces what is the benefit to save on gas if the money goes for cost and service calls.
I've had my Sear's 80% furnace and ac since 1983 and its still working good. A good friend spent a lot of money, on TWO high efficiency furnaces in the last 12 year's. I'm not a hvac guy, but I agree with you. Thanks.
As a service tech please do yourself the favor of getting a 80% furnace or boiler or whatever it is. Once you get into the high efficiency stuff be prepared to pay double in repairs. They also break way more often than your 80%
I'll never go with a high efficiency furnace again. Too much trouble, safety sensors, and shuts down every time the wind blows hard enough. My old 80% that vented out the roof never did that.
Alas, they are not allowed to be sold anymore in Canada
@@dmitripogosian5084 that's too bad, but it's happening everywhere. Anything that makes sense and works just fine, has to be replaced with some more expensive, more problematic high-efficiency appliance.
Completely agree. Saving $6/month on heating is quickly lost with the first $800 repair.
@@jamesklancke4319 exactly
I have 10 year old High Efficiency DC drive American Standard in Minnesota. All that has been done to it is an igniter that I put in. I have a inducer motor sitting in a box waiting for it to go out, since we know they go out on a Saturday night when the temp is -20F. The inducer motor was $375. I have a 1950 house and run the fan motor 24/7 365 so you don't get that old house smell and helps on cold and hot zones in an old house. I save $275 to 300 a year on electricity because of the DC drive motor vs A/C drive motor of the cheap furnaces. I also run a very high end surge protection system on it to protect the motor and motherboard. This furnace has been a great runner. Every 4 years I flush out the drain system on it.
Very honest and helpful. Thank you. Retired general contractor and I think I could count the number of honest hvac guys I've known on my fingers.
General contractors are the shadiest of the bunch
Greatly appreciate your candor in your content. My furnace is circa 1948. Still works great albeit inefficiently. Only need to run it about 4 months a year. Thinking about replacing it but maybe but maybe I’ll think some more.
I trust you have Carbon Monoxide detectors in your home; CO is called the silent killer for good reason, no odor and no smell..!
@@bobboscarato1313 Absolutely
Might be wise to get a replacement 80% before the laws change and have it on hand for when the time comes to replace it.
Your furnace from 1948 is probably 50% efficient if you're lucky. That means for every dollar you spend to heat your home, 50 cents is going up the chimney in the form of waste heat.
@@andrewludwig9251Rarely anything "efficient" these days is as efficient as it is claimed to be. Most of those specifications are performed in lab conditions, highly controlled environments plus, there's lots of motivation to over estimate efficiency. Any electric motor today is barely 60% to 70% efficient if that gives you any idea about electric consumption...I'd love to see an "electric torch" compete with Oxy Acetylene torch on jobs requiring "torch" or "gas welding" for those all bent about "electric".
While you're right on the upfront and parts cost, you didn't mention tighter new builds where chimneys are a thing of the past. Tighter houses need outside air for combustion and vent.
Which is why we put them in attics which have plenty of air and garages which also have plenty of combustion air.
You did not mention the variable speed circulating fan motor. I had to replace mine at 5 years. In searching for a replacement motor, I was looking at 1,500. Plus labor 3-6 hundred dollars. I did find a company that rebuilds the motor modules and programs them. I was able to get 2 for 200 dollars. My motor was good just the module was replaced. Great video!!!
My story. Bought a Lennox in 1981 (42 yrs). Put it in myself. I think the numbers are 190,000/145,000. I replaced the thermocouple once. I replaced the main blower motor once. That's it. I change filters often and keep all parts looking like new. Also, I keep carbon monoxide detectors active because I hear of so many people having furnaces replaced because of the heat exchangers.
You don’t know what you don’t know… I’ll just leave it at that.
That's probably the same one our contractor installed in 1987, cutting every possible corner in our build. However, all the neighbors who put in the 80% furnaces that were the "latest" technology replaced theirs after 8-12 years. I just replaced mine this summer with a 95+% Bryant unit so we'll see how the gas bill goes (we live in Minnesota). I was having trouble finding hammock filters for my old unit, but 36 years isn't too bad. Everything original except a relay that was replaced after 15 years.
@@lennylipe6434didn’t think those g8’s had a relay…or a circuit board.
@@TheBoomtown4 Not sure if an actual relay, but an electrical part of some sort.
@@lennylipe6434 the g8’s were good but they could crack at the back of the heat exchanger eventually and did, by code, need to be replaced regardless of what this diyhvac fella says. Good luck with your Bryant, I haven’t had any egregious issues with em.
Very well said and I can't agree more. I have high efficiency furnaces installed at my own home 10 years ago. They are much more expensive and very crowded inside with complex components. Naturally issues keep on popping out. The problem is that replacement parts are so expensive. In my rental houses where middle efficiency furnaces are still being used, they are much less problem-prone and much cheaper to repair too. The only issue is that the Canadian government makes it illegal for anyone to sell non-high efficiency furnaces now. What a stupid and arrogant government we have!
Thank you for this video. Correct the technology involved makes these furnaces unreliable. I just bought an Amana 80% furnace to replace our old furnace which lasted 28 years. I will be long dead by the time this one fails.
I would really appreciate your thoughts on what can be done about wind noise entering from a vented water heater. I'm hear whistling in the exhaust pipe ever since an HVAC guy lined my chimney after installing an 80% furnace. Thanks!
Excellent video man! I live in a very cold climate and I just started having a few small issues with a furnace that was installed in 1994. This video made me wake up to the fact that they just don't make them like they use to. Just like all my other appliances that are date in the look but still running strong. Stuff like refrigerators, stoves washers and dryers are designed to last about 7 years (and according to the people at my local appliance store more like 5 years as of late) as they use super cheap parts and they really want you to have to buy a new one sooner rather than later. I'm just going to keep mine as I believe fixing a $20 rusty pipe that's clogged my gas flow, will fix my issue. Lastly, remember the good old days? My Uncle has an old Ben-Hur chest freezer that was passed down not just from my grandma but from my great grandma where it has been sitting in the same house since new in 1951, it's still running like the day it was made and they have NEVER serviced it even once. 😁
Here in the Netherlands we use water based floor/radiator heating.
At low ~50°C temps it's amazing how much condensate our condensating gas furnaces produce.
Also they are cheap, about €800~1500 for a basic model that runs problemless for at least ten years.
Great Video! People need to realize that the increase in efficiency only effects the gas consumption part of your bill. Don't think that a 10% increase is going to reduce your bill by that much, only the gas consumed will go down a bit. I spent $10 for the gas consumed and my bill was still $67. Trudeau Carbon tax was $11 on $10 worth of gas.
Yep, plus all the municipal riders you have like $50 on the bill before you pay for any gas
Bingo! My gas useage in the summer is nearly zero (water heater only) and the utility almost always rounds it to 1GJ. Fine. Times $3/GJ I owe $3. What's that you say? Hookup, Prime Mininster Bl#kkface's Carbon Tax, municipal rider, etc? That's another 65 bucks. Even in the coldest month a couple of winters ago, my low-efficiency 1983 furnace burned about 30GJ (highest ever, far as I can tel). Times $6/GJ at the time. $180. Assume 50% wasted up the flue. That's 90 bucks wasted in the coldest month I caxn ever remember in six decades. Big whupdedoo. Prime Minister Castro's carbon tax grab costs me 60 some months all by itself.
The thing that annoys me is that this is like a sin tax for living in Canada, Many citizens in Canada think this tax is fixing our climate, people need to wake up! @@user-hm5zb1qn6g
Wow man, thank you so much for this video. I was just getting ready to buy a high-efficiency furnace and now I am not. I can't thank you enough
Thanks for this video. I have a furnace issue i didn't know the name of the part I needed to replace until i saw this video. I will confirm what I learned with a HVAC guy i know and get the proper parts to properly fix my furnace.
If you need further assistance check out our membership over on Patreon.com/diyhvacguy where you’ll get quick response times and one on one help with repairs/diagnosing. Cheers
If you want to get the most out of your HVAC system and you have inefficient windows, put your money into the windows. You tackle the weakest link in your building envelope, which is always the windows (unless youre seeing daylight between door and door jam). You'll hold the heat and cold in the home much better, the HVAC will have to run much less, and you utility bill can decrease by as much as 50% according to Dept. Of Energy.
If you have a modern multi stage HVAC thats running at low speed for circulation/indoor air quality and humidity control, it will still run just as much, but it won't have to switch to high and actually heat or cool nearly as much.
Before you add attic insulation, re-insulate walls, etc, you should look at your weakest link. If you take a video of your home with an infrared camera, you'll see that im right about where all your energy is really being lost.
Without a doubt. I know most of the leaks are coming from the uPVC windows around the sliders and I'm willing to bet the installer didn't insulate around the frames because I noted leaks around the frames of the basement windows. Same as the front entrance door. I've got a lot of work to do over summer to save costs for next winter.
@@DystrophicEvolution if you're in the DMV area (MD, VA, DC, Deleware) I can hook you up.
Thanks, I'd surely welcome that, but I'm up in Canada.
Thanks for that info from a person who is in the business ! Also, I like to keep with the standard on whatever i buy, keeping away from all those bells and whistles!!!
Simplicity makes for longer, worry-free and happier life!
I was told I have to install a high efficiency furnace because I'm having my attic foam insulated (it's 108° in Texas during the summer). Is this true? Or can I keep what I have and run a fresh air intake to the old (2004) furnace? It's working perfectly.
22yr service tech here. Great video! All true. 80% are better then H.E.(90+%)for many reasons....please don't let the govn't stop manufacturers for producing economical & safe products for us regular folks.
I'm getting a new system put in tomorrow. The guy steered me away from a high efficiency system for the reasons you stated and he also said there are more parts on them to fail.
I concur with your comment about the shady HVAC folks. They are out there. I found the company that is coming out in the morning after reading a negative review on a competitor. Customer called this company after their experience with the shady one and raved about them. I saw honest reviews about them and visited the shop. It was clean, organized and run like a business. The price he quoted was actually a little lower than what I was bracing myself for too.
Hello what state are you in ?
@@josephpuchel6497 North Florida.
Awesome! Glad you could find someone good. I hope they treat you well and deliver a good product 👍🏼
@@diyhvacguy This morning, two clean cut guys in separate clean vans arrived on time. They worked hard all day long as a team and did a BEAUTIFUL job! (seriously, it is something to stare at and admire) The price was exactly as quoted with no surprises. There is absolutely nothing they could have done better.
"nd he also said there are more parts on them to fail. "
I dont buy that claim, they all have air flow sensors, temperature sensors, electronic control board, intake air fan and circulation fan,exchanger, one would not have "more parts" than another- they both do the same thing- burn gas for heat.
Only way one would have "more parts" to worry about is if it had dual heat exchangers or modulating burner or some other BS you don't need- like water and ice in the door of a refrigerator.
My new furnace, Goodman 80k 96% Is on its 3rd winter, I installed it myself and I see how the inside looks and what is there, the intake fan is much better than the junk that all the furnaces at work had- those 1/12 hp fan motors were by some brand I forget the name of, made in Mexico, nothing but bushings for bearings and they would seize up because there was NO way to lube the bushings, the motors were basically non serviceable disposable crap and they were way expensive!
The Goodman feels like it has ball bearings, and a plastic disk on the surface turns, and you can turn it with a finger and tell if it's bearings were getting tight, and either try to lube or replace those before it fails.
I do plan to have a spare fan, board and sensors on hand.
Cost me 2k to upgrade to a 96% eff furnace over installing a 80% eff. I was replacing a 78% furnace from 1988. Very happy with the furnace and AC. Much improved over 1988 and I'm seeing 20-40% reduction in gas and electricity costs. Plus no more service calls that cost an arm and leg.
Do you think variable speed blowers along with modulating gas valves on the standard efficiency furnace are worth it? Can correct sizing help a single stage be just as good?
I would stay away from a variable speed fan( they tend to fail), but a modulating gas valve is worth it. correct sizing is the key to the system maintaining thermostat set point.
Thank you! You kept this simple and straight, no bs hey guys, updates, or sponsors lol. My AC unit died last summer, and I have a crusty old furnace. I need to have the whole system replaced. Now, should I buy Rheem is what I'm wondering. Cause I really hate buying stuff, and then 4 months later I'm calling because something is busted. I like things simple, easy to fix, easy on the wallet in the long run.
I spent $3k on a HE boiler. It didn't even last 3 years. Replaced it with a used $300 Bradford White. Still going strong and any tech knows how to service it and local suppliers have all the parts in stock.
Make a similar video for seer rating for air handler + evap coils + condenser matching and explain the pros and cons of higher seer ratings on the cold AC side
Thanks for the information, I had a high efficiency furnace installed and it kicks on every five or so minutes. I have had old furnaces in previous homes and they were there for thirty to forty years, without too much issues.
I agree 100%. My brother has a duplex, which he lives on the upper level and his tenant lives on the lower level. His attic unit is a standard furnace and has been there since the 90's still going strong. I've only had to replace the ignitor in 2023, and just today the draft inducer. Total cost for him $130. I did it for free, but he paid me more than I ever wanted and 900% less than what a 'HVAC Tech Company' would have charged him. The system below is a 'high efficiency' system and the door switch contacts were rusted out because of a clogged condensate drain trap, that caused the door switch to fail and shut down that system in -7 degree weather here in Wisconsin. The water pooled for so long that it rusted out the lower portion. I removed the door switch, bypassed it until I can get a new door switch. Now, I'm having to clean out all the rust, replace the door switch, replace his condensate trap, the condensate trap recessed mounting basin, rivet in a new sheet of stainless steel to compensate for the rusted tin metal, vacuuming out his drainage system, and replacing his drainage hoses, and priming his condensate drain system. The drain trap was caked full of rust, so I just ordered a new on. So yeah, the 80% is the way to go! No condensation and water to deal with, and the components are very economical to replace.
What saved this furnace is that 'Heil' (Furnace Brand) isolated the condensate trap away from the main board, so the board was away from and untouched by any water pooling and continued doing it's thing. It was the failing of the door switch that shut down the system. How is that for 'Smart Design'? The rest of the furnace looks shiny and new for the exception of where the water pooled and rusted the sheet metal. This is a furnace that was installed in 1997. Yes, it's a 'high efficiency' furnace, but also a 'high maintenance' furnace with many many many ways to fail unlike the 80% furnace. HEIL did things right.
Greatly appreciate your honest and professional opinion. Makes all the sense!
Guy claimed my heat exchanger was cracked. I called his bluff. It was my control board.
Furnace will run with a cracked heat exchanger. Not with a bad control board.
@@Kevin-mp5of it would throw pressure switch codes, flame current not sensed code and that’s it. On the pressure switch codes everything was corrected pertaining to the codes. But it wouldn’t go into “soft lockout” mode. Of course this leads to burning out the inducer fan. Tried to erase the code. Wouldn’t take. Wouldn’t delete the code. Turned the unit off from the switch on the side of the furnace to let it reset. Still would do the same thing. So I replaced the board and it fired right up. I’m guessing there was a surge of some sort that fouled out the board. So now I’m thinking of installing a whole home surge protector in the breaker box.
@@dans_Learning_Curve yes, I’m aware. I kept monitoring the house for C02 readings. Did it for three days straight and nothing. So that contractor was only geared to sell me a new unit.
@@Kevin-mp5of I understand. The only reason why this has come up is because this is the second board replacement since 2020.
Thanks for the video. I’m having these problems right now with a 95% efficiency carrier furnace. It’s about 25 years old. I’ve got some water drainage issues and I have the manual and I think one of the plastic catch box’s that I call it for loose of the technical name. I think the plastic part has a crack in it causing the leak. But to fix and replace this part if even available I have to pull the hole inducer motor assembly out to get at what I need to replace or try and fix. Then theirs the wiring , sensors if for any reason they break because of age then I have another problem. I’m going to replace the furnace myself. I’ve priced out the difference between a 80% versus a 95% and it’s around 1,200.00 dollars . Your video just sold me on the 80% furnace just because of the inducer motor assembly cost then theirs the heat exchanger also. I’m looking at a 100,000BTU furnace . I have a place in my city that caters to DYI guys. Before the 95% furnace we had a 80% standard furnace and it was so much easier to work on, no problem. We went with the 95% furnace right after they came out and all the big hype around them. We got 25 years out of this one and I’ve been thinking about replacing it then all this world stuff came up and I was vary concerned that I could not get parts for it so I put it off but know it’s time. Then another issue is the condensation pump . They go bad and I need to replace them also. Those condensation pumps are a real maintenance headache; the reservoirs get a dirt buildup issue mainly and need to replaced. So that’s my take on all this.
Great content/insight in the video and many of the comments I read. The reason I'd go with a HE is because my 2 story house was built all electric. I hate that A LOT. I'm in Missouri and we have prob 4 months of cold weather (sometimes single digits for a while) but in this major metropolitan area stable power can be an issue. In the summer I can live w/o the AC but winter outages concern me. Only option for me (without major rework on putting in a roof vent) is an HE (in the basement of a 2 story house) and vent out the side. It's good to have this as an option if/when I have the gas company run a gas line from the main (from the street) to my house. Thanks again to your comments and those of others. (P.S. I don't mind not living in northern MN - brrrrr).
With a 90%er you have more install options because you don't need to worry about combustible ventilation air, you can just pipe that in. Those problems you mentioned about 90%ers are due to installer error, most of these problems are due to installers making the furnaces level in which they should be pitched slightly so the secondary heat exchanger can drain properly. Or they run too long of flue vents with too many elbows and not upsizing the diameter of the flue pipe, so the condensate just runs right back into the inducer motor and eventually fills your pressure switches.
The most efficient system I have ever seem is a gravity feed hot water system. NO pumps no fans. But it is UGLY. The radiators are UGLY. BUT the heat is constant and radiant.
Yes you do have 6 inch pipes for feed and return pipes in the basement along the basement walls. They also keep the basement warm. That also keeps the floor above it warm.
It also is efficient. Part of the cost electricity to move the heat from the furnace to the rooms. Gravity is free. The second floor is heated by the 1st floor. Air also rises.
The grates in the 1st & 2nd floor also help with what is the rug rat up to now.
Yes air does move with the difference in temperature too.
OH and the house is more comfortable at lower temps than a 96% efficient system.
But now I live in a slab house with a top down system. It is November and it sucks. Because the the comfort zone is 80F instead of 70F.
The humidity seems to be pumped into the Utility Sink. Every time it starts up.
Pretty much my 1966 Corvair was more reliable than my 2016 Trax.
Corvair cost a lot less in time and money to maintain and got the same fuel mileage.
Oh also more comfortable, without A/C. Because you could roll the windows down and to 60 MPH with no wind buffering.
Some things do improve. A lot of things just change.
Thank you so much. You teach people what they need to know - which many didn't even know they didn't know. 😊
You make everything so clear. Certainly appreciate your honesty.
Again, thank you.
You are so welcome! Thanks for the support!
I'm a retired HVAC contractor and I totally agree. There are many more service calls and the service calls take longer because these high efficiency furnaces are so much more complex. The secondary heat exchanger often gets pugged with soot What a mess! Wet soot everywhere and you have to take apart the entire furnace to clean it up. I can't remember for sure but I believe often this problem came about simply because the condensate that was dripping off the secondary heat exchanger met an obstruction and couldn't drain properly.
In my area, the building code prohibits any furnace that is less than 92%. My first house, had an old furnace that was probably 60% or so, and it began to act up. It was pilot light style, and started to have issues igniting - sometimes 1-2 seconds after the valve opened. Then it got to be almost 5 seconds! When it caught, i swear the floor heaved a bit (crawl space horizontal)! Enough was enough, so I purchased a new furnace (92% regular chimney) )and self installed. The dealer I purchased it from, said he would make the duct transitions for me and connect the gas line. Worked great, and the final inspection passed with the inspector telling me that it was the best and cleanest install that he had seen recently. Best result - my winter heating bill was now 1/2 of what I was paying previously. My total outlay was $900, but that was in 1988 or so.
Well, if you are talking just furnace cost, it's less than $600 difference between an 80 afue and a 96 condensing afue 60 k BTU in the Goodman line. Not very much. That goes up to close to $1400 if you get a top of the line vs modulating model. So, quite a bit less than the installed $ you note. Modern condensing units have been around for 30+ years now, the bugs are worked out. It makes a difference when you heat for 6 months like in MN. I would say a PVC pipe install is actually easier if you are near an exterior wall.
I have installed hundreds of high efficient furnaces,I stick to 95 and 96% models.I dont mark up the equipment I sell them,just the small pick up and delivery fee.I am not sure this goofball actually knows anything or he just reads books and watches youtube before making his own video! Now I see the savings especially with propane,16% better effociency is 16% less fuel up the chimney .Not to mention ,I properly size and properly i stall the equipment.Been at it for 29 years,and dont really go back and work on anything i have installed! Once in awhile you get a fan issue,or a flame sensor,bit not much more than that!
Ego much Peter? @petersmart1999 🤣
To answer the original question, yea the equipment isn’t much difference but unlike Peter here, the companies mark the equipment up like crazy and roll it in with the whole price so the customer has no idea how much a unit is, and typically doesn’t even know what to type in on Amazon to find the same furnace they are installing.
@@petersmart1999 yes brother,,this guy is young & dumb. look behind him he has a mini split on the wall talk a complicated piece of sh*t.try repairing that !
@@diyhvacguy No ego,just think you should cool your jets a bit! I understand your sick of companies ripping people off,and high efficient equipment is no good,but I have seen just as many people get jammed up on a mid eff furnace! And I understand that high efficient equipment is not for everyone,I never ever recommend tankless water heaters,Im not a fan of high eff boiler or combis unless its an entire rebuild! I think so many companies install those turds,is because they cant size a boiler! It pretty easy if you add up the fin tube or rads! That would be the max! Bit to say it has no place,or your just getting ripped off,thats not exactly right either.I have put alot of time and effort into training,research,and skill to give people a good working system that was installed and sized correctly and for a fair price,watch some of these other channels out there,I drive a 2011 pickup,Im not rich,dont care to be,I need to sleep at night!
@@stevestadterman9270 I get what he is saying,not everyone needs one! But to say ots all junk,and you are basocally being ripped off if you go high efficient,thats not 100% true! And there are still good companies out there. You are your own best advocate! And I understand and tell customers,not to expect a brinks truck to show up next month with the money they are saving,its not gonna happen.Now in combination with,insulation,windows and doors that is pretty big,I have seen savings in the 40% range!
THANK YOU!! I truly appreciate your honesty and candidness about High Efficiency appliances. I have a gas wall oven, upright freezer, microwave that are all nearly or over 40 years old. I won't get rid of them because I know that their replacements may have more bells and whistles, but are definitely not going to be as durable, reliable, & virtually maintenance free! SIMPLE IS BEST. When the Gov't meddles in free markets, they ALWAYS screw things up, including HVAC.
AMEN! When I bought my first NEW house about 25 years ago, I went for good old electro-mechanical Maytag washer and dryer. Maytag gas range that does have a simple electronic control that's required for the oven, but burners will operate without even electricity (you just need to light them manually). I will never get rid of those appliances! Same with my furnace. It's standard Carrier 80% unit. No multiple or variable speed circulation fan. Single heat exchanger. Standard metal flue going up through the roof. In 25 years, I've had to replace the inducer fan once and the quartz ignitor once. Total cost less than $300, because I did the work myself as it was very simple. Took less that have an hour total for both (of course they failed at different times, but that's about the total cumulative time. If I ever have to replace it, I want exactly the same thing! Sadly, that's probably impossible now,
Why do you think the 80% furnace is at that efficiency? Also a government mandate from the last oil shocks. I hate the idea of any combustion appliance inside the home that interacts with the household air- if something goes wrong it's a serious safety and health issue. The furnace or boiler also wastes money.
@@rsmith02 Modern furnaces have electronic ignitors, not standing pilot lights. Just like natural gas hot water heaters. Also have carbon monoxide detectors, for safety. You can smell NG. If the Gov't mandates something, you can be pretty sure they'll screw things up.
This vilification of the Federal Government is nonsense. Do they make mistakes, of course. So do you. Would you go back to those glorious days when we used leaded gas and got 13 mpg? Thanks to the Feds we got rid of leaded gas and they also mandated improved MPG. It is common for cars to get 30 mpg or more these days with better engine performance. He talks ill of the Federal Government then gives praise to carbon monoxide detectors which are mandated in houses by, you guessed it, the Federal Government. Go ahead and buy an 80% efficient furnace, I will keep our 97% efficient furnace and enjoy the better performance. Just don't complain about your high heating bills and blame the Feds. You have the fossil fuel industry to blame for those high bills.@@SW-nq1bx
The occasion which really hits hard on the break even calculation is when a repairman recommends a replacement of a mid efficiency furnace which is otherwise in good shape.
I was advised to replace my late '90's era mid efficiency furnace with a new high efficiency furnace because of a control systems failure that the repairman couldn't figure out.
I did the break even calculation and saw that it would take quite a long time to hit break even on the full replacement cost; an even more difficult tradeoff than mid vs high so I decided to stare at the issue and look at the schematic on the inside of the door.
It too me awhile to puzzle out what the firing sequence should be, but after a couple hours of hair pulling I figured out that two relays on the controller board had arc damaged contacts by detecting high voltage across N.O. pins when the relays were closed.
I took the relays apart and cleaned off the arc scorched contacts and the board was repaired which got me going while I waited for replacement relays.
I was really chuffed that I could fix my furnace. I got a much better tradeoff position than an entire furnace replacement.
To be fair I can see that repairmen are not typically afforded the time to puzzle out a complex problem. I think they'd have the advantage of education so they'd diagnose the firing sequence problem a lot faster than me, but I've got a massive advantage in time to puzzle things out and a house that's really cold.
I have a side hustle doing commercial appliance and HVAC repair since I retired. I strongly agree with every point The DIY HVAC Guy offered.
I replaced our 26 year old York 80% furnace in my own home in 2007 - it ran from summer 1983 to 10/2007, 24 years of service. A 92% York replaced it (my own work) in 10/2007; that furnace failed due to a holed heat exchanger 11/2023, 16 years of service (replacement heat exchanger parts no longer available). Along the way it had at least four times the failures of the old 80% York furnace, mostly switches/sensors and one super-costly ECM motor.
This is exactly what I'm going through now, so thanks for another perfect video... A big name company is quoting me 13k minimum, 0% interest over 10 or 12 YEARs for a high efficiency replacement on my Furnace and AC units with Trane. I contacted an independent contractor quoting me 6k to do it with Goodman products, that difference is insane to me.
The 0% interest is likely built into the sale price.
Agreed. The cost of offering 0% interest falls on the contractor, as the loan is usually done through a third party (bank). Companies will typically offset this by upping their bid.
Another thing to consider is Trane vs Goodman equipment. Trane/American Standard has very good brand reputation which automatically comes with a higher price tag.
Yes because "big name" has a LOT more overhead than the independant contractor
@@CrystalwithaK1980 do not have a very good Brand Reputation and have very costly parts
Keep it up, brother. You’re doing a great service.
Thank you, I will! Cheers
Ok, I was an HVAC service tech for 25* years. Gravity doesn’t pull the exhaust out of an older furnace. They work on CONVECTION. The hot exhaust gas convects into the flue. Those old units also posed a much higher carbon monoxide risk than the newer units. Moreover, they were around 60% efficient, and you can no longer buy those types of furnaces.
When we talk about efficiency, it basically refers to how much heat goes into the house vs how much goes out the flue. On an 80% furnace, 80% of the heat goes into the house and 20% goes out the flue. Modern furnaces range from around 82% to around 95% efficiency. Higher efficiency means less wasted heat. Higher efficiency furnaces are more expensive to purchase and are more complicated to repair.
I personally don’t recommend the more expensive high end furnaces. Regardless of whether the customer opts for 80% or 90% efficiency, I do recommend going with a two stage furnace. The biggest advantage of staging is that it will help to keep your house more comfortable. I also recommend heat pumps instead of AC only units. You can run a standard heat pump down to about 40F, and it will save you money over using gas. Depending upon the condition of your chimney, venting an 80% furnace can be pretty involved, because you often have to go on the roof and shove a metal liner down the chimney. When the roof is high and steep, contractors often have to rent a bucket truck to install the chimney liner. The higher efficiency furnaces (90% and higher) are often easier to vent. They use PVC pipe and go out the side of the house. In short, there’s a few factors to consider when deciding whether to go with a standard or a high efficiency furnace.
ROI (return on investment) is something people need to look at on most major purchases. As in this example, if it takes 15 years to supposedly save enough on operating costs to cover the additional upfront purchase cost, it is unlikely you will actually come out ahead. And if you have to finance the purchase, don't forget the interest charges when you calculate your ROI. One of my favorite examples of ridiculous sales hypes is the one involving solar panels. Unless you can get the taxpayers to pay for most of the upfront costs, by the time you could get to the break even point the panels would have reached end of life and have to be replaced. And don't forget you have to have them disposed of properly and recycled. In my opinion, if you only intend to live in your home for twenty years or less, paying high prices upfront to supposedly save on energy costs is a bad deal, especially if you live in an area where electric and gas prices are reasonable and stable.
Another thing the solar-panel cultists fail to mention is the cost of removing the panels, replacing your asphalt shingles when they wear out (20-25 years from brand new, if you're lucky) and then re-installing. Factor in new shingles ($5K minimum in Canada) and the B/E on those panels starts to really stretch out.
High efficiency equals more problems and more headaches.
High efficiency furnaces are really not that unreliable, I don’t get that much more frequent service calls for high-efficiency furnaces over standard efficiency. If they are installed properly and maintained regularly. I have installed many high efficiency furnaces and have only ever been back for routine maintenance and occasionally dirty flame sensor. Almost all furnaces have ECM motors these days as well so there’s no way to get away from those even though I rarely ever see those fail on properly designed and installed systems. Unless it’s some sort of geographical thing, and they do really well up here in the Philadelphia metro region.
Most problems I have seen I’ve been systems installed by hacks /house flippers improperly pitched and designed venting trapping water. And just plain lack of maintenance.
Carrier has had problems for 15 years on the high efficiency secondary heat exchanger. They rust and plug up right at the inlet from the primary. Search on you tube and you will see. They made the tunnels too small and the coating delaminated......causing rust to plug it up. Can't be cleaned out. Just too deep.
I've felt this way for years. I've got a basic Carrier 80% furnace. Single speed circulation fan, standard metal flue up through the attic. Simple. It's 20 years old and all I've ever had to do was replace the inducer fan once (part cost was around $200-$250), and I did the work myself because it was very simple! Took 20 minutes. Only other thing I've done is replace the quartz igniter once. Part cost about $15. Again, replaced it myself and it took 10 minutes, tops! If either of those, or any other of the many more complex systems, on a high efficiency furnace, your payback time immediately goes to infinity, because it will NEVER pay for itself over its lifespan.
you know that Carrier has costly replacement parts
Gotta love this guys honesty and no nonsense reasoning very concise and to the point
on a standard 80% furnace, if one the heat exchangers is cracked, the flame will roll out ,off of the burner when the fan comes on. I have talked to individuals who have replaced a good 80% furnace with a high efficiency furnace just to get the cost savings. they have told me that that there was no cost savings at all, and the contractor installed a smaller unit to save installation costs. the problem is ,when it gets cold outside, the new furnace runs non stop and does not keep the house at thermostat set point. I am a retired hvac-r contractor, and when I bought the house that I am living in now(1989) had an electric heat with a heat pump system, and we froze that first years winter. I removed the existing system, and kept the air handler( installed a water heat exchanger/ DX heat exchanger), but made it a belt drive fan. I installed a hydronic boiler( also heats domestic hot water) that is oil fired. this system is coupled with a geothermal heating/ cooling system( also heats domestic hot water) that I built myself( this is a baby commercial system). everything is original, with no major component failures( installed/ built in 1990)
I have noticed that my power bill has gone up drastically after putting in a high efficiency furnace. The gas dropped by about 2% difference in amount burned from my old furnace It is because that inducer fan runs on top of the main blower motor. The price for that inducer motor is $756 to replace the whole unit because they do not sell just the motor. So to save a little gas my power bill doubled by going to that high efficiency route.
Power bill doubled!? Are you sure you didnt accidentally put in an electric furnace!
Here when you “Break out” of the lower base power rate usage the penalties go up by 2/3 of the first rate of $.12 a KW/HR so it hits $.20 KW/HR. Then if you go past that second limited usage it goes to $.26 a KW/HR for the rest of the month. I am going over the limits almost every month now with the furnace coming on for 10 minutes on and 30 minutes off. Now that is bad enough but the amount of “Fees” that are charged on top of the power usage also go up the same rate. If I use $20.00 of power as an example the transfer, generation and administration fees are $45.00. It is a big scam the fees.
@@patreilly6826 That sounds like Alberta. Guess who owns electrical transmission in Alberta? Warren Buffett. Chiseler, government welfare bum, and author of Obama's energy transmission policy that blocked pipelines from here through the U.S. to the Gulf of Mexico.
In developments with all new furnaces the average buyer has no choice of what gets installed. You also didn't mention the possibility of frozen condensation drain lines in cold climates. In my development of 124 homes, five furnaces had frozen condensation drain lines during the big Christmas Eve freeze of 2022 in Virginia. The developer had installed most of the furnaces in the attic space over the garages, against the recommendation of the HVAC company. These frozen lines shut down the furnaces for several days or until the owners could get them thawed out. In this case the high efficiency furnace wasn't the problem, but the developers who installed them did it wrong. After that, I don't trust any builder. The installers just want to make a quick buck and will knowingly install it wrong. The inspectors don't care either.
Thank you for the education! Wish I had see this before I replaced my furnace 😊
When my parent's new house in Houston was 3 years old the HVAC guy came down out of the attic with a bag of rust and told my mom the 3 year old furnace was bad.
That was 1964... lol
The furnace which was a Chrysler Airtemp was finally replaced by me in 1991.
Excellent information. We have stayed with the 80% furnace now for the two times we have replaced our units. The cost of the high efficiency was far too much. Your explanation of the difference was quite educational. Thank you.
The problem with the term efficiency is that people automatically jump the gap from energy efficiency to money savings. I think you have done a good job of breaking things down into a total cost of ownership perspective. I think most HVAC technicians either knowingly or unknowingly dupe their customers into getting hyped up on buzz words. I appreciate this video and agree with your perspective.
Love to hear your thoughts on furnaces that use the Honeywell smart valves.
Ours has gone out sometimes every other year. When we get lucky it goes for 4 or 5 years.
We've also had a lot of problems with the burners not all lighting cracked jets/nipples or whatever, and corrosion in the burner housing (?) Disrupting the airflow.
This last time around we're going to replace it with a new one for around 4300.
The valves have gotten so high.
Smart Valves had 3 different generations. Each generation had issues and were not reliable. Most generations had bad internal wiring connections/ Molex connectors. These failures are not your contractor's fault. I always recommended to replace the furnace since they had so many issues with the Smart Valves. The last I knew COST for just the part was about $300 in my area. Heil, Tempstar, Kenmore, other ICP products and a few boilers used them.
Where i live a heat pump serves me well, but I do still have strip heat and a gas space heater.
The thing you forgot is between 80% and 90+% is not really that big a difference. Set thermostat at 68 instead of 70 and it will probably cost the same to run. To save 10% you don't have to turn it down 10%. I have an old Bryant plus 90i. yrs ago the inducer motor went and was $600 and the heat exchanger was cracked but under warranty. Since I moved here in 2004 those were the only sorta big things. The deal is if I didn't fix this POS myself it would probably cost $1000 a year. The stupid water drain thing is a constant and the vacuum switches get confused at least once a winter. Every winter I sit and watch the flame when I start it to see if the flame does weird things when the fan comes on. I know the heat exchanger will rust out again. I have replaced 2 of the glow igniters too but I have a larger house so I have a 80% furnace on the rec room side with another central air. Since 2004 I have done nothing more than change filters and take a look under the hood every so often. Not one penny in repair costs in 19 years.
15% colder when its -40 outside is 53.5F. 🥶 also dont forget where you combustion air is coming from.
I paid 2600 CAD( 1900USD) installed for my 92% single stage 60k furnace 17 years ago (lifetime warranty of the HX's) . Never had an issue. Not used much here in Vancouver though. I see they are still about 1200USD for the furnace itself. Like you say the HVAC industry is not too honest by over charging for these. Also, in Canada all furnaces must be 90% or more by law.
That was back a while when furnace manufacturers had still built decent equipment and used reliable parts vs. today, mostly Chinese parts and sensors. Interesting how we "own our property and the structures on them yet our Government tells us what we will do with them and how much it will cost.
@@Garth2011you don’t actually own anything in Canada. “The crown” has ownership and control over everything. This is just about the only holdover from British common law which governments conveniently for them maintain. Trudeau senior’s charter of rights and freedoms basically eliminated all other British common law protections in Canada and the charter’s constitutional guarantees are useless. The general public in Canada believes that they have ownership of their belongings when that is not the case. That’s why governments can dictate those kinds of things and get away with it. Canada already is WEF and socialist paradise. Americans should be highly vigilant about this monster next door.
I was wondering when someone from Canada was going to point out that mid efficient furnaces are no longer available. I'm currently clinging on to my ancient Keeprite high efficient (Feb 21, 1988) but looking down the road I'm dreading having to buy anything new.
@@jimbarron8688Right behind you with my Amana 1991 80%. It's never needed any repairs, still has the OEM blower motor. Change filters 2 to 3 times a year MERV 5 or less.
Ditto in 1994 manufactured home with 80% furnace. Just redid all windows. Also in Vancouver (Langley). Furnace hardly ever runs.
Thank you for this video! The HVAC rep would rarely bring up these issues.
Some sales people sold cars or widgets before and then switched to HVAC and don't know squat about the business. Most seasoned HVAC folks had been service and repairs individuals with many years in the business!
My 1972 Lennox is still running strong. Had the valve & thermocoupler replaced about 15 years ago. Nothing but routine maintenance since.
I had the heat exchanger scam pulled on me 25 years ago but my wife didn't feel safe and kept worrying about it. After some checking for a different company and decided to self install. I switched from oil to propane knowing fuel would cost more but I'd neve have another one of those guys in my house again (I was wrong LOL). I did the same analysis you just did and came to the same conclusion about high efficiency that it would take 15 years to break even and as an engineer I knew the extra complexity would increase costs when something broke. I did need a maintenance guy because there was a recall and needed a new controller. He knew his stuff and was happy it was standard efficiency because it would be a quick job.
I should have said I know it was a scam because I filled the exchanger with water after I replaced it - no leaks. I am also a hazardous materials tech and tested it with the good equipment the day the scam artist left.
I actually had a bad heat exchanger. They actually showed me pictures. Wasn't necessarily a cracked heat exchanger, but these circular rings popped off. And he said when the heat turns on, it allows the metal to expand and causing a carbon monoxide leak. So now it's time to get quotes. All the hvac guys wanted to replace everything, furnace and central air system yes my central is old. But still works well. We were in November, and heating season was coming. The cheapest or most affordable quote was $5500 to replace everything. But all I needed was a dam furnace at that time. So I too went online and bought a new furnace for $680 bucks I believe it was. Then got quotes for a hvac guy to install it. Cheapest quote was $800, and the installer was going to FaceTime with me. I still had to do the work. The most expensive was $2800. He said it would take him about 4 hrs. Not a math genius here, but that's $700 @ hour. I started looking online for help. Watched video like from this guy and other. And felt, since my old furnace was 80% and my new furnace was 80%. It was basically plug and play. I have now been through 2 heating seasons and all is good here. Saved myself thousands of $$$$$
@@robertvosburgh7540 you got a great price, thats what I found out also. Other than it's big, you just hook up power, thermostat wires, and fuel line.
@Nine Fingers exactly. The furnace isn't some name brand furnace. But for $680 bucks I will take my chances. 680 over 10 years is 68 bucks a year, or say it break in 5 years ok so 680 over 5 years is 136 bucks a year. Still not a bad trade off. But seeing how I'm doing the maintenance, again several videos to learn from. I'm pretty confident it will last at least 10 years.
Amazing. I always tell people that if a homeowner wants to replace their furnace, they’re going to be more cautious then some tech making 20 bucks an hr, because it’s YOUR home. Glad you were able to save a bundle. Cheers
It depends on preference. When it’s cold or hot outside, it is nice to have the system running continuous on low. Great comfort. I’ll say, if want that, go for what is common in your area.
So you have a modulating furnace? Any issues with that style?
@@GUITARTIME2024 Not the guy you are replying to, but this summer we replaced ours with the "two-stage" version and it is really nice. You don't get a strong blast of air when it is on low (which is most of the time), and the median temperature in the house is a lot more stable - the thermometer basically stays at one temperature instead of having wide swings. A lot of this depends on having a well-insulated house, obviously, but we are very happy we made the switch.
@@FlyGuy2000 cool. Could you tell me what brand and model?
Hey @diyhvacguy One question I'm grappling with is that I currently have a condensing unit that seems to be on its last legs, and because of that the venting we currently have supports HE but not a metal vent 80%. Since I'll be installing this myself, the difference in cost is somewhere in the $500 range so it's not too bad. Otherwise I'd need to retro fit things to support the different venting requirements.
Any thoughts on this case?
I live in NC in a two-story with two 80% furnaces in the attic (one for each floor) and A/C compressor/condenser coil units outdoors. My energy bills are high in both summer and winter. I was considering switching to spray foam insulation on/close to the roof deck and then removing the old blown in and bath insulation from the upper story ceiling. However, this would require switching to high-efficiency furnaces with intake and exhaust via PVC that could have spray foam insulation against them. I also just replace me complete unit about 6 years ago. The other unit is original and almostb26 years old. Would it be worth replacing both units to do the spray foam and have ductwork, furnaces, and evaporator coils in the attic be a conditioned space? I should also note that I know the upstairs ceiling/attic floor is not air sealed as it should be, so if I don’t go with spray foam, I still really need to remove existing blown in insulation, properly air seal, and then replace the blown-in insulation.
I guess it all depends where you’re at and what equipment you’re replacing. I went from having a gas bill of $150 a month on equal pay with Questar/Dominion to having a $40 equal payment and that was in 2000. I’ve never replaced an inducer, a heat exchanger nor even an HSI due to good maintenance. So I spent $3000 back then and have saved $1320 a year for 22.5 years, or $29,000, so my next 93 is already paid for, basically.
It’s not the equipment, it’s all the quality of the installation and maintenance.
That’s true. If you are spending $150/mo equal pay just for gas then it might be worth it.
I think longevity has a lot to do with run hours. A failed Hot Surface Ignitor has nothing to do with maintenance, It has to do with how many run cycles. Just like a light bulb is rated to last so many hours. You have been very lucky to have a high efficiency furnace that is still going after 22 years
@rodgraff Well, I also have a more than 30 year old dishwasher, 25 year old washer and dryer, 23 year old Range and Refrigerator, a 21 year old water heater, a water softener that’s older than I am and sold my last car with 427,000 miles on it. Sure, things need parts and maintenance, but surely that all mechanical longevity can’t be just dumb luck.
@@rodgraff1782 Most hot surface igniters cost $ 10.- at the wholesale house!
Ignitors and the like are easy to clean or replace, and inexpensive, one should have a spare on hand anyway.
@@rodgraff1782
We appreciate your candor. Many people take advantage of us poor consumers.
Hey thanks for the advice. Question I had a high efficiency furnace installed in 2014. Where were you then. Lol On to the question how far can the exhaust be from the furnace for a standard one. I have about 5ft from my exhaust pipe going through the roof. Is there a code about how far from the furnace that the exhaust should be? Thanks!
This guy knows what he's talking about!
In my experience only, the maintenance which I do myself, cost 10x the price of standard systems. The headaches of redesign for venting and air intake every -40 event, blows the cost way up. Plus the cleaning every year of boiler etc takes a lot of my time. It is THE BIGGEST SCAM EVER CREATED old 80% just runs no real big maintenance for 30 years.
I bought 2 high efficiency furnaces in 20 years for my earlier home. They get a lot of their high efficiency by using thin sheet metal, unlike older units. This allows for a faster heat transfer. It also means the thin sheet metal will wear thru in 10 years or so. You have to get a NEW high efficiency furnace every decade as they do not last. When I moved, I kept the 1978 gas furnace in the 1938 house and grafted on a heat pump for most of the heating chores. It is my best system: an old gas furnace that is well kept and a heat pump for the 21st century.
This is false. Condensing furnaces get their efficiency via a secondary heat exchanger that looks more like an ac coil, not by making the initial metal loops thinner.
And $20 your 1978 furnace is leaking COx into your house.
Plus, I'm at year 13 with no leaks in my 96% goodman furnace. Please, don't post stuff unless you actually are in the trade.
Utility Companies in some states offer rebates when you buy a high efficiency boiler or furnace. We had an ultra-high efficiency Weil-McLain Gas Boiler installed around 12 years ago and saved $2000 with the rebate. We only had one service call in the last 12 years - a clogged condensate line.
I just replaced my furnace, ac condenser and evap coil. i replaced my 22 year old nordyne frigidaire 80% furnace with a ducane 80% 110k btu two stage variable speed furnace. My 22 year old furnace was still working with no problems but i replaced it because it was pretty old and i live in the midwest where our winters get pretty cold. i also have two young daughters and i can't take the risk of going through the winter and having a 22 year old furnace die on me leaving me in a position to scramble to get a new one during a very cold day. i did get an 80% furnace with a variable speed blower per the suggestion of the installer but i'm not fully convinced that the variable speed is necessary as the old furnace didn't have that feature. any thoughts on a two stage variable speed furnace? would you have replaced a furnace that was 22 years old even though it was still working? thanks.
In my area (Wisconsin) the difference between a 80% and a 96% installed is about $500. At that price it definitely pays to go high efficiency
I am WI and there is no way I would go with an 80% furnace. I don’t want all that cold make up air coming in. In Utah it is no big deal because the climate is much more mild.
In the long run you're be paying much more in repair cost high efficiency is definitely not the way to go not including the time you spend without heat been working in the HVAC field for over 35 years
@@Ander5806 You must be a horrible tech to allege that - plenty of condensing furnaces working just fine after 30 years.
@@sprockkets please read my reply again I said just the opposite I would never install a high efficiency furnace unless the customer request that I do so after giving him the information and my opinion which would be not to go with the higher efficiency furnace and I have the most trouble with that type of unit
@@Ander5806 Again, no one here in Wisconsin puts in an 80 percent furnace - we don't have issues with that at all here. It's not even a question.
i have been in hvac for ten years and it baffle my mind how people are willing to pay thousands of collars for high efficiency over a efficient 80% agree with you 100%. and right at 15 years is about when secondary heat exchanger clogs. if not sooner.when people had older 80% i would tell customer to not buy high eff. stick with 80%
I had a 30 year old Lennox 80% 105k but they are NOT 80% because you have to factor in like mine- it took ALL it's compbustion air from the room, that pulls cold air in every tiny crack and also sucks the heated air out. And because like mine- it had a metal 5" open flue to the outside, between cycles cold air could be felt blasting back down and out the opening on the furnace front, I'd bet the 80% it stated on the plate was actually less than 70% BECAUSE of those two things
I now have a brand new Goodman 80K, 96% furnace I bought new for around $1200, and installed it myself- new ducts, returns, electric and gas. So I was able go from a 105k unit to an 80k, and from a max 80% efficiency to 96%, so this will produce a dramatic difference in gas use, unlike if you kept everything the same and JUST went from 80% to 90%
I just checked, Nov, Dec, Jan gas bill for 2023, 2022, 2021 and 2020, and they are; 286 therms, 330 therms, 344 therms, 362 therms respectively. So I'm 44 therms under what I used last year. This year, the 286 is with the new furnace, keep in mind that i ALSO bumped the thermostat up one degrees to 73 from where it used to be on the old furnace.
I used 165 therms last Jan, 101 this Jan
@@HobbyOrganist So at the current Therm price in your area, how much savings ((consumption 3 year average)? in my area (2/2023) Mcf is $9.25 or $0.89/therm. is it about $39 (a coldest month). ?
One of the reasons prefer an 80% furnace is that they draw their combustion air from the house and send the exhaust up the chimney, along with the household odors. the average American house leaks sufficient air to keep changing the air. Some of the super sealed homes are so tight that they end up putting in mechanical air exchangers to change the air! The 80% furnace is doing it automatically. It is similar to the summer when the house is closed up with A/C for long periods and my wife would open the windows because the house started to not smell fresh. So much for high efficiency when you open the windows to get fresh air!
Hola señor I really trust your advice and I will remember that whenever we have to replace ours we bought this house 7 years ago and only have to replace two capacitors in the ax unit outside but the gas heater is still working properly except for the weak Texas power grid which in every winter 🥶 it might fail leaving people freezing 😢…anyway but that’s a different story…Gracias for sharing your knowledge and skills with us your followers and I will keep supporting your channel in the 2024 by watching the videos to the end give like and comment and share with friends and family…you sir have a blessed new year celebration 🎉 keep it safe alcohol 🍷 don’t mix well with car keys…Saludos!!!👋😊👋You have a great weekend 2023😊
Thank you so so so much. I truly appreciate the support and will continue putting out great content that will help homeowners and DIYers like yourself. Cheers brother
@@diyhvacguy You are the best 👋😊👋
Completely agree. Those 80% Goodmans just run perfectly and you can get them so cheap.
Thanks for your content, those thoughts mirror what I've thought about high efficiency furnaces. Hyped up, with not much gain.
Question, if I currently have a high efficiency furnace with pvc exhaust, if I was to replace it with an 80% can I use double wall stainless steel exhaust from my 80% up 4 foot to the ceiling than over 6 foot to the outside wall like my existing furnace is??
I think it’s a matter of opinion most the ones I’ve installed over the years I’ve never had to go back. My Carmen in the house is 15 years old only brought my head was the condensate pump which wasn’t part of the furnace. Lol!