This was one of the lesser known issues surrounding the break up of Yugoslavia. However, it raises some important questions that often arise in cases of independence and secession: who should be allowed to become citizens? It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of Slovenes about this. Or those from elsewhere in the region? And are there any parallels elsewhere? On another note, I have now opened up channel memberships. If you would like to help support the channel, please do consider joining. For a small monthly fee it can really help build and develop the channel. Thank you. ruclips.net/user/JamesKerLindsayjoin
It's quite similar to what happened to ethnic Russians in the Baltics. What I find disappointing is that the EU just ignires these cases. After all Slovenia and the Baltic states are all EU members. And the EU loves to harp on "values "
@@ems7623 About the EU it seems, to me that when they want to criticize a country ad nauseum for some human rights abuse or other it does so; and when it wants, to close its eyes it does so.
Hello, James, I am Slovenian and I have already written a comment, but I didn't notice that you are looking for the thoughts of Slovenians :) The general opinion is that many of the Yugoslavian people that lived here were "too proud" to apply for citizenship, despite having 6 months to contemplate. Many actually thought that the Yugoslavian armade will return and deal with the seperatists (vratičemo se/we will return). There were people that didn't knew and not all were counter independence, so I think the authority could have conducted an inquest back in the mid-late 90's and granted rights to people that didn't work counter independence or conduct criminal activity. My grandmother, for example, was born in present day Croatia and my family was aware of the legislation call. I think that the main victims of this misunderstanding were the innocent children that were deprived of education.
My father is from Bosnia. When Slovenia became independent he got slovenian citizenship without asking for it. The state of Slovenia obviously checked him good because after more than 40 years he got his real bearth date that was switched with someone else back. In ex YU nobody cared about that mistake. He also told me about people telling him they don't beleave in Slovenia as independent state like "Slovenia is small, it won't last..." and DIDN'T WANT Slovenian documents! After some time they changed their mind..... So this isn't black and white storry
look you weren't ereased they gave them time to make a new identety if you didn't it was your own problom and(you said slovenia won't last)bosnia has two goverments that hate each other and would you rather live in a broken yugoslavia drowning in debt?
Exactly. Nothing is completely white or black. Obviously, your father had his papers in order, his residence legal, so he got citizenship as he should. If he accepted it, fine with me, if he didn't, it is his choice. Anyway, he was a part of our society, he was legal, for me he is welcome. but some people didn't have their status legal, some speculated too much, some were just too sloppy to get their status legal.. And it was quite an easy process. In effect, it was mostly their own fault. Greetings and I hope you and your parents are doing well!
Im from Slovenia and i was partly erased! My mother was from Croatia and i didn"t even know that i was officially Croat, till the day i went to make a Slovenian passport. Then they told me that i was not Slovenian even when lived my whole life in Slovenia. It was such a absurd situation that i passed three times illegally the border between Italy and Slovenia by the forest, since i had only a Yugoslavian passport, which was very bad at the time and you could"not travel whit it around Europe. At the end i had a luck, because my sister is a judge and she resolve all situation..
Thanks. I’m really glad you managed to sort it out. It really was an absurd and tragic situation. I also find it rather disturbing that there are people who still try to defend a policy that has been judged to be contrary to basic human rights law by Slovenian courts and the European Court of Human Rights. There have been lots of comments on this video saying that it served people right, that they were traitors, etc. As you made clear, that just isn’t the case.
After 1991, the Slovenian state did not experience partial erasure. Citizenship in the former Yugoslavia was always dual: republican and Yugoslav, i.e. in Slovenia Slovenian and Yugoslav. Of course, the passport was Yugoslav, because the republics of the former Yugoslavia were not countries, but only federative units - the full name of Yugoslavia was SFRJ (Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia). you don't say when, in what period it happened - if it happened at all? I repeat once more: everyone who had a permanent residence in the Republic of Slovenia at the time of Slovenia's independence could apply for Slovenian citizenship (if, of course, they did not already have Republic of Slovenian citizenship). The application (fee) to obtain it cost less than two beers. No one discriminated against anyone, everyone in their right mind and capable of doing business (!) would of course do their best for something so simple. It is known that before the independence of Slovenia, immigrants - economic migrants from other republics of the former Yugoslavia - did not have Slovenian republican citizenship. Of course, they had the citizenship of the republic from which they came, for example. Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, etc. I emphasize that no one forced economic migrants from various parts of Yugoslavia to come to Slovenia, which really was another Switzerland for the other republics during Yugoslavia. Now I have enough teaching on this subject.
Slovenska država po letu 1991 ni poznala delnega izbrisa. Državljanstvo v bivši Jugoslaviji je bilo vedno dvojno: republiško in jugoslovansko, torej v Sloveniji slovensko in jugoslovansko. Seveda je bil potni list jugoslovanski, ker republike bivše Jugoslavije niso bile države, ampak samo federativne enote - poln naziv Jugoslavije je bil SFRJ (Socialistična federativna republika Jugoslavija), Ker delnega izbrisa ni moglo biti, izbris je bil lahko samo v celoti, poleg tega ne poveš, kdaj, v katerem obdobju se je to zgodilo - če se je sploh zgodilo? Ponavljam še enkrat: vsi, ki so imeli v času osamosvojitve Slovenije stalno bivališče v Republiki Sloveniji, so lahko zaprosili za slovensko državljanstvo (če seveda že niso imeli republiškega slovenskega državljanstva). Vloga (taksa) za pridobitev je stala manj kot dva piva. Nihče ni nikogar diskriminiral, vsak pri zdravi pameti in poslovno sposoben (!) bi se za nekaj tako enostavnega seveda potrudil. Ve se, da slovenskega republiškega državljanstva do osamosvojitve Slovenije niso imeli priseljenci - ekonomski migranti iz drugih republik bivše Jugoslavije. Imeli pa so seveda državljanstvo republike, iz katere so prišli npr. srbsko, hrvaško, bosansko itd. Poudarjam, da ekonomskih migrantov iz raznih krajev Jugoslavije nihče ni silil priti v Slovenijo, ki je res bila za časa Jugoslavije za ostale republike druga Švica. Zdaj imam na to temo dovolj poučevanja.
My father was from Lendava Slovenia. I've been wanting to visit there for awhile now and plan to do so in the near future. The stories I was told about my grandfather's involvement in the war was nothing short of amazing and shocking.
I had 3 neighbors. 1st an ethnic Serb. Cool guy. He came back from administration unit joking that he bought citizenship for a sack of potato. 2nd also ethnic Serb. He was running up and down the street at the beginning of war while MIGs were flying overhead and scream from the top of his lungs that his people are coming and that they will all rape our mothers. He wussed out and got the citizenship too. After he burned his officer uniform. 3rd guy was an ethnic Slovene. Old dude. He and his brother were, as kids, deported to Serbia during WW2 by the Germans. Just for the sake of it they went to check, and sure enough because of that deportation they would almost have been erased as old documents pointed out they are serbs. They also got citizenship. Do with this information whatever you want. IMO certain people just didn't want to admit that whatever Belgrade says is the law anymore and expected special treatment. And now they scream bloody murder. Unfortunately some innocent underage kids also got caught in the crossfire because of that.
Vsak, ki je imel ob razpadu Jugoslavije stalno bivališče v Sloveniji, je lahko zaprosil za državljanstvo. Državljanstva so bila v bivši Jugoslaviji dvojna: republiško in jugoslovansko. Nihče ni postavljal leta 1991 nobenih pogojev za pridobitev državljanstva, razen bivališča. Nobena druga država ni dajala državljanstva na tak lahek način. Neznanje ob pridobitvah pravic kot je državljanstvo ne opravičuje nikogar. Vsak je imel možnost seznaniti se s tem, da mora samo vložiti prošnjo, ki bo avtomatsko odobrena. Ne glede na narodnost, jezik, delovni status in ostale osebne okoliščine. Vsa javnost je bila glede tega obveščena v vseh medijih: časopisi, TV, radio, na vseh upravnih in državnih organih. V 21. stoletju zna verjetno vsak brati, če ne zna, pa zna poslušati in vprašati… Evropsko sodišče za človekove pravice nikoli ni bilo seznanjeno z dejanskimi okoliščinami v Sloveniji leta 1991.
kot vidim so komunistični slovenci že spremenili dejstva in razloge. Vsekakor se strinjam s teboj. Na bruhanje mi gre, ko sedaj sprevačajo, še bolj pa ko tujci sodijo in komentirajo, ko pojma nimajo kaj in kako.
In tocno tako je bilo. Vsak ki je zelel pridobiti drzavljansto je to lahko naredil. Moj Stric po rodu Srb, rojen v Beogradu je nemudoma zaprosil za drzavljanstvo in ga tudi brez kakrsnega koli problema pridobil.... ne poznam vseh primerov, vendar, ce si je clovek zelel drzavljanstva, ga je tudi brez problema dobil... seveda, ce je imel stalno prebivalisce v sloveniji. tako da prosim lepo....
Oprostite, ampak v primeru moje družine ni bilo ravno tako. Moj oče je dal vlogo za mojo takrat 5-letno sestro na uradni organ. Gospa, ki je opravljala delo na okencu takrat, je vlogo prikrila brez naše vednosti. Moja starša sta izvedela, da ima neustrezne dokumente, saj sta se odpravila na obisk v Srbijo preko meje z Madžarsko, saj je bila na Hrvaškem vojna. Temu je sledil ponoven obisk uradnega organa in konkretna pritožba. Moja sestra je po tem pridobila ustrezne dokumente in državljanstvo, ampak je dogodek razkril vzdušje takratnega časa.
Totalna neresnica, draga Jane. Kot prvo, zakon je selektivno pozival na obnovo statusa le tujce iz YU. Kar je bil seveda najvecji razlog za padec na Ustavnem sodicu. NE mores napisati zakon ki za nekoga velja tako, za nekoga drugega pa drugace. Kot drugo, ce ze obvescas nekoga o cemerkoli, to ne mores delati preko medijev, ampak preko osebnega vrocila.
Slovenia is been taking care for ex Yugoslavian republics financially, donations, employing, accepting refugees and 100 thousands of migrants in the last 70 years, working visas for EU or any other way. Enough is enough. Balkan and other thirds world countries should get a grip and finally start taking care of themselves. Stop always relying on someone third to take care of you and your problems. Slovenia (less than 2 million people) produced almost 40% of economic power in Yugoslavia (23 million people) and all this money went to Belgrade (capitol). I hope you got a full picture now.
Rubbish. When Yugoslavia was established Slovenia was a poor Austrian backwater. It thrived in Yugoslavia because it had access to cheap labour and cheap resources. Any economist will tell you that most developed parts of any country benefit more than the poor despite the financial transfer from rich to poor.
I was around nine years old when this was happening. Even at that age i knew that some people now callled the "erased" did not want slovenian passport. They were counting on yugoslavian army to win. They lost and then they start playing the role of victims. The passports were ridiculously cheap to get. Anyone who wanted it was able to afford one!
As a Slovenian: this is a complex topic. A lot of people got unjustly erased. But a lot of people also hedged against Slovenia and bet that Yugoslavia would win, and in some cases they actually went to fight in Croatia and Bosnia for the Serbs, before realizing it was a losing war and returning to Slovenia, expecting this country would welcome them back with open arms after they helped commit atrocities of war. Those unjustly erased should be reimbursed. Those who hedged their bets against Slovenia should be disregarded.
Slovenian people have very strong feelings about Slovenian nationality because Slovenia was always invaded by all sorts of people because Slovenia is like an intersection of Europe, the armies moved and occupied Slovenia constantly.
Quick chat-gpt summary: Celts: The Celts were among the early inhabitants of the region. Romans: The Roman Empire incorporated the territory of present-day Slovenia, and it was part of the Roman province of Pannonia. Huns and Germanic Tribes: After the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the area experienced invasions by the Huns and various Germanic tribes. Slavic Tribes: In the 6th and 7th centuries, Slavic tribes, including the Slovenes, settled in the region. Carantania: In the 7th century, the Slavic principality of Carantania emerged in the territory of present-day Slovenia. Bavarians and Franks: The region came under the influence of the Bavarians and later the Franks. Holy Roman Empire: The Holy Roman Empire exerted control over parts of the territory during the medieval period. Habsburg Monarchy: The Habsburgs gained control over the territory in the late Middle Ages and continued to rule over it for several centuries. Napoleonic France: During the Napoleonic Wars, the territory was briefly under the control of Napoleonic France. Austrian Empire: After the Congress of Vienna in 1815, the region became part of the Austrian Empire. Austro-Hungarian Empire: In 1867, the Austrian Empire transformed into the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Slovenia was part of this dual monarchy. Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes: After World War I, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes was formed in 1918, which later became the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Axis Occupation (World War II): During World War II, the territory was occupied by Axis powers, including Germany and Italy. Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia: After World War II, Slovenia became one of the six socialist republics within the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Independence: Slovenia declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1991, leading to a brief ten-day war before international recognition of its independence. European Union and NATO: Slovenia joined the European Union and NATO in 2004.
Milosevic wanted to show the other republics how strong his army was, but he did not expect such strong resistance. He lived in Serbian propaganda that Serbs were above all others and underestimated the determination of other nations for a better life. At that time, he wanted to persuade Kučan not to arm himself and wait, just so that he would have time to prepare for the fall and the replacement of the newly elected government in the first democratic elections in Slovenia. However, in Slovenia Kučan had practically no influence on the events, he even disarmed the republic's territorial defense where the Slovenes were, so that the new army would not get weapons from them. Reason and experience with nationalists from the Balkans prevailed in the Slovenian government, and they did not fall prey to such manipulations.
This is such a misleading post. In 1992, in the middle of Yugoslav war (mess), so called "erased" (Serbs, Bosnians who lived in Slovenia) were simply hesitant, didn't want to accept (refused) new Slovenian passport, or were too proud of their roots from their native republics. They were sorry later due to the lousy outcome of war and bad economy, which still didn't recover. Slovenia is and always was by far the most organized, cleanest, safest and richest of all former Yugoslav republic.
The republics in Yugoslavia had their republican citizenship and permanent residence if you went to live in another republic. It is necessary to know the interwar nationalist propaganda against Slovenes in order to understand this problem. People who had permanent residence in Slovenia and did not deregister it when they had already moved to the west or to other republics during the Yugoslav era were erased. There were also a few who came back to live later or lived permanently in Slovenia, but these were mostly Slovenes by nationality. In those conditions when Slovenes were still learning to manage the country, they thought that people would register themselves within 6 months, so that they would even know who still lives in the country and who does not. However, it must also be said that these erased people were able to return to Slovenia at any time and regain their permanent residence, which was not possible in other Yugoslav republics, only if you were of the majority nationality. There were also such cases, for example, an Albanian who lived illegally in Germany and the Germans wanted to extradite him to Serbia because he had Serbian republican citizenship, which is more than just a permanent residence that expires in six months if you do not live in the country, but it was rejected by the Serbs. Only Slovenes wanted to take this Albanian because he once lived in Slovenia for some time during Yugoslavia and had a permanent residence which he did not deregister. It is not a problem for the erased to get their permanent residence back in Slovenia, but now that they see how fair and orderly Slovenia is, they want to have Slovenian citizenship under the same conditions as they were offered in 1991. They do not sue because they do not get the status they had in Yugoslavia, but because they would like citizenship and compensation for the time when they were not in Slovenia and were erased from their permanent residence. Due to propaganda, because no one in Slovenia stopped it and did not pay attention to how foreign nationalist forces would try to portray Slovenian independence as a criminal act, the lie became the truth. The Slovenes needed not only to learn how to run the country, but also to teach the nation that in reality other nations are much more nationalistic and wish them ill and do not have the same idea of the world. It is necessary to know the history, how foreigners ruled the Slovenes for a thousand years. They ruled the Slovenes by denationalizing them and confusing them by inciting one Slovene against another, and so a strong unified affiliation never developed. And they were also taught how incompetent they were that if it weren’t for their masters, others would destroy them. It is also important to know that other nations considered themselves more and looked down on the Slovenes because of their nationalist propaganda, so that at the beginning it was beneath their honor to cooperate and accept the new state. Due to the confusion about belonging to either communism or Yugoslavia or pan Slavism or the newly created state, politicians quickly began to take advantage of this without conscience and thus deepen the rift between Slovenes, so that Slovenes have no idea how others treat them, because they quarrel with each other and have their own themes. In Slovenia, there is almost a civil war between the old communist elite, which took over the country practically after independence again, because the newly formed parties did not get acquainted with politics and did not remove the former elite from the main positions and media. The Slovenes in Yugoslavia were the most enslaved nation in the world, because no other nation had to give so much for other nations. If we had not left Yugoslavia, given Slovenia's economic backwardness due to the withdrawal of its funds, Slovenia would be less developed today than Bosnia. In terms of purchasing power, it was already captured by Serbia in the 1990s. In Slovenia, immigrants received all the best apartments, but Slovenes sometimes had to wait for years to get their turn. And many did not pay the bills because they saw Slovenia as their prey and no one could do anything to them. Also because during the Yugoslav era, due to high inflation, the Serbs gave their Serb people stamps to sell to Slovenes at high prices, and a hundred other things could be said about it, so in the end independence was the only option if they did not want to go bankrupt or however, to emigrate from Yugoslavia, as forced by the authorities last year in Yugoslavia.
@@kosarkosar7683 There would have been no Slovenia or Slovenians whatsoever if there they had not been liberated by Serbs in 1918 and 1945. Do not forget how many Serbs died for Trieste and were willing to go in war against UK and USA during Trieste crisis 1945-1954. Serbs could have taken Romanian banat with then predominant Serbian Arad and Timisoara in 1919 and instead gave it in return for Bled and Bohinj which should have been Italain and Austrian. What about crippled Serbia in 1941 receiving Slovenians exprelled by Nazis? Where was Milan Kucan born?
I don't understand what is the problem here to be honest and I'm not certain that you have all the information. The Slovenian authority passed legislation calling to all Yugoslavian citizens living in Slovenia to apply for citizenship as you have said in the video. That means that they had about 6 months and many didn't want to gain citizenship because a) they thought that the Yugoslavian Armade will return to Slovenia and ''deal'' with the seperatists b) They didn't want to have papers of a country that a bird crosses in one swing. + I don't see any reason to give citizenship to soldiers that fought against independence - it makes no sense :)
You are obviously convinced that you know more about legal matters than the Slovenian Constitutional Court and the European Court of Human Rights combined. Congrats on your self-confidence.
@@janp7927 Oh, sorry. I just assumed you would have an idea of what the problem was after watching this video. You can also read the rulings by the Slovenian Constitutional Court and by the European Court of Human Rights if you want to understand the issue. I love the vocative case :)
@@boruttrost5750 So... european convention on human rights... violation of: (8) Right to respect for private and family life, (13) Right to an effective remedy, (14) Prohibition of discrimination... It seems that these violations are more less or a result of not having a citizenship, not about not having an option to apply or lack of infos... Wasn't there an option to gain citizenship of their native countries? The erased innocent children of those people are a sad story indeed. Ps. I have enough of this topic, have a nice Sunday.
@@janp7927 Sorry, you can't ask me a question and then say you've had enough of this topic before I can answer ;) In case you want to return to this topic sometime in the future: "It seems that these violations are more less or a result of not having a citizenship" - Slovenia didn't have the right to violate those people's rights in any way it pleased, just because they didn't have/didn't want to get Slovenian citizenship. Even though they didn't have citizenship, they still had some rights in Slovenia, according to Slovenian and international law. That's the gist of the whole issue and of the courts' rulings. Do you understand that? "Wasn't there an option to gain citizenship of their native countries?" - That doesn't matter from a legal point of view.
This is a video made from one perspective, the perspective that won in the courts. I'm part of a younger generation of Slovenes and so I am not entirely familiar with the matter, however it is undeniable that some people flat out refused to comply to Slovenian law and gov't which encouraged them to set their status in order, either a foreigner or a citizen. This was done because some were against an independent Slovenia and believed it will soon be reintegrated into Yugoslavia. I am sure it wasn't done correctly though and that human rights were violated for some people in some way. But I am sick of hearing the erased and their sympathisers talk about them being nothing but victims with dumb excuses (didn't know it mattered or that it was neccessary lol) and them saying Slovenian government was evil. Many foreigners integrated just fine and got the citizenship or remained citizens of other states and continued to work here, while a few haven't. Think about that and try to explain why a small portion of those people would be discriminated against purposefully.
That last question is for your government to answer, not anyone else. Whether or not human rights were violated has been established in court, those courts being both Slovenian and the ECHR. What you wrote is literal victim shaming, and it's both laughable and despicable.
@@HalfLifeHalfDead Just because a court ruled something, it doesn't make it true. It's just what the court thinks is true based on the evidence and arguments presented - see OJ Simpson trial.
It's not shaming anyone. If you disregard the law and due process and not act while you have the capacity to do so, that is your decision. Not victim. All that was said is that there are actual victims in this case, and entitled rebels, whose play didn't work out. Also, as far as I'm aware ethnicity and place of birth weren't a factor for being erased. Lots of it was technical fck ups on the side of the government. Which is 100% believable living here. And the main human rights violation wasn't really that people were 'erased', but that it's a fucking disgrace at how long the governments needed to even start addressing it and finding a sollution. Which in Slovenia, again, isn't necessarily discrimination at any specific group of people; seeing how the same is true for ANY necessary public infrastructure project, or reform. It's not active discrimination, like the British occupying N Ireland; but more likely people not caring to do their jobs. Again, living in Slovenia this shit is obvious. And smug outside comments amount to about ... all 😉 Please check the regions of Carinthia and Friuli-Venezia-Giulia for better references on human rights violations and tell me why I never, not once hear about them in the west. Then you can maybe start discussing victim blaming with Slovenes. Untill then, keep your ignorance in your own sandbox, and don't pollute actual conversations.
well the referendum passed 94% so not only were the Slovenian government evil so were 94% of the entire population, but massive massive respect to those 6%, its not easy to take a stand for human right when everyone around you isn't
Perhaps a video on Finlandization? Or a video on the unusual form of the Lebanese government, how it internally Balkanized, and the effects of that system?
Thanks so much. Brilliant suggestions. I would love to do a video on Lebanon. I went many years ago, just after the civil war. It was absolutely fascinating. (I also had many Lebanese friends while living in Cyprus. So I got a lot of stories from them.)
The declarations of independence of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo came as a result of the nationalist and repressive policies of Milosevic, who wanted to create a greater Serbia. When these three republics declared independence, Milosevic started wars.. Why ? For one reason only, Why do they declare independence ? Which is a right of every nation. For my opinion, Serbia is the shame of Balkans.
I think we need to be very careful in how we analyse the break up of Yugoslavia. As I said, it is complex and highly contested. Yes, Milošević played a major role. Indeed, the central role. But was he the instigator of nationalism elsewhere or was he the product of nationalist forces already in play in Yugoslavia? In other words, was his nationalist Greater Serbia project the cause of Yugoslavia’s breakup or the consequence of an inevitable path to dissolution the Federation was already taking? This is not to defend his policies. The outcome of his policies led to huge suffering. I often point out that Serbia has him to thank for the terrible reputational problems it faces today. But I also think it’s important not to see forces leading to the breakup of Yugoslavia as merely the fault of ‘the Serbs’ and the Serbs alone. It is far more complex than that.
True story, the Coronavirus crisis, global warming, and the flat tyre on my bicycle today, all of these were also aS a rEsUlT oF tHe nAtiOnaLiSt pOliCiEs oF MiLoŠevIć.
@@JamesKerLindsay In every Republic that declared independence, Milosevic sent troops there and started the war. The result was catastrophic. 20,000 killed in Croatia, 100,000 killed in Bosnia and 13,500 killed in Kosovo. Milosevic started three wars and lost all three ashamed. Why ? Because justice always wins, the right to be independent and sovereign. We have paid dearly for this independence and freedom that we enjoy today, with our blood. Now, let's take a look at Serbia, where the role of the victim is played or in fact they are the aggressor. They do not admit that there was genocide in Srebrenica. They are pathetic. We in the Balkans know them very well, Mr.James.
@@albanalshiqi2378 Again, it is important not to confuse the way the wars evolved with the causes of the break up of Yugoslavia. It is important to separate out the two. They are rather different discussions. I am happy to point to the disastrous policies of Milošević. But it is wrong to delay that he single handedly caused the break up of Yugoslavia. The roots of the conflict lie a lot deeper than that. I know people in Kosovo have strong views on this, and for good reason. But I am an academic. I have to base my analysis on evidence. And I know very well that the causes of events need to be separated from the consequences of those events. Applying a backwards analysis is not good scholarship.
Thanks for highlighting this. Slovenia is a country that outwards seems like a very clean, fair and tolerant place - in reality we have so many skeletons stuffed in our closets it's impressive the doors are still holding. And impressed about your patience in dealing with all the Slovenia did nothing wrong apologists.
Thanks so much. It has been really interesting to see all the nationalist responses. I actually know Slovenia very well and have a lot of affection of it. (Ljubljana is lovely and Lake Bohinj is one of the most beautiful places in the world - even more than Bled to my mind!) This video wasn't made to try to insult Slovenia, but to highlight a very real issue of human rights that occurred. It is just amazing that people still deny that the country did anything wrong, even though the Slovenian Supreme Court and the ECHR ruled against the government.
@@JamesKerLindsay Yes exactly, but I feel a lot of Slovenians have a mentality that we as a country did nothing wrong, and in fact we were the only party ever wronged because we are the small underdog fighting for our independence from big empires. The region im from, Štajerska (Lower Styria) used be very German, with Germans being the majority population in Maribor before WWI. Obviously this was partly due to colonialistic tendencies of Austria and the unequal distribution of power and wealth among the ethnicities of the Austrian and later Austro-Hungarian empire. But the reality was that these were regular people, regular Austrians and Germans, who ended up being expelled en masse, forced to leave their homes through aggressive actions by Slovenia/SHS in the immediate post-war period and collapse of Austria-Hungary. After WWII many even executed in large numbers in Villach as traitors or collaborators. All of this ended resulted in Štajerska being completely cleansed of Germans after WWII - yet we barely at all talk about this, if you bring up that this was in fact ethnic cleansing they will act shocked, and General Maister who was the leader of a military coup in Štajerska will be presented as a flawless national hero, even though he for example ordered his troops to fire on protesting Germans after the take over of Štajerska from Austria. But I feel Slovenians have a hard to integrating these facts into our "narrative", since we want to portray ourselves so much as the "good underdog" fighting against oppression (from Austria, from Nazi Germany, from Yugoslavia, from Italy etc.), that it's impossible to accept that reality is gray and no state/ethnicity is pure. We did horrible things to regular people living in Slovenia who we consider "others" in order to achieve our goals, and brushed it under the carpet in the grander narrative of fighting against the evil empires that surrounded us. And I don't think this is insulting, it's reality. But the problem is that nations are not based on reality, they're based on myths and legends and narratives. And trying to point out how reality often clashes with they myths, legends, and narratives is quite dangerous, especially when reality is a lot darker and more complex than what we are fed growing up.
Thanks. But it really hasn’t brought many Slovene haters here. Frankly, I don’t think I’ve ever really met any. Apart from the Erased, most people in the former Yugoslavia actually tend to have a positive view of Slovenia. (And hardly anyone even knows about the Erased. I do as I knew one of them.) The far bigger problem, as has been shown here, is that Slovenia had its own brand of nationalism that most people are unaware about. I know Slovenia well. I’ve been many times and I am very fond of it. But I have been surprised and appalled at the terrible comments from Slovenian nationalists. This has been the real revelation. And if I was Slovenian I’d be far more upset about how their comments paint the country than the relatively few comments from others who might say bad things about Slovenia.
@Franjo Grandovec Oh, I see. It didn’t take much for the veneer of moderation to fall away. That was a nasty little rant. I don’t know why I wasted my time trying to engage politely. As it happens, I’ve made lots of videos about U.K. wrongdoing. If you had actually dated to watch the channel. Likewise, you would have seen that I also made a video about Operation Storm.
What's most impressive about you is that you respond to nationalists from all sides in the comment section of many of your videos, if I was in your place I would be extremely frustrated by reading and replying to these "this is xyz propaganda" people Your patience is truly admirable Greetings from India
If he does a video about any of the numerous issues in India though ... I already see in my minds eye the comment section. It is often near impossible to unravel the whole truth with all sides pushing true or untrue information that suits their current interests. It is so not only for ordinary folk but even for professional analysts that actively evaluate their sources and biases.
All i gotta say: there was propaganda against Slovenija. Not that stuff like that isnt bad but last couple of years im starting to feel like everyone is against Slovenija.
I don’t think people are against Slovenia. I’m certainly not. I’ve been many times and I love the country. But these sorts of issues do need to be raised. As you can see in the comments, many Slovenes deny it happened. Many argue that it was absolutely acceptable. My view is that it is still an aspect of the breakup of Yugoslavia. It may not be seen as serious as events elsewhere. However it still deserves to be looked at and explained.
Thanks. Yes, it’s a little known story. But a very important one in terms of how the breakup of countries can have a profound effect on people’s lives.
I am a Slovenian so inherently biased. There are several things where I quite disagree with your asssesment of the problem, even though I fully agree the "erasing" was quite poorly handled, with some real hardship to the people involved. You however do raise a very good question: How should a split of a country be handled? After thinking for some time about it, I see it is not an easy question, so I will focus on this. So here is my (biased) view: there was one country and each citizen had both the citizenship of one of its 6 federated republics and the combined one. This country separated. The combined citizenship no longer exists. So how do you handle the citizenship of people, who are permanently leaving in one republic but have the citizenship of another? I basically see only two options: - a) you make all the citizens of a no longer existing country that were at the time of the split permanently leaving in one federal republic - its citizens. This option does have some problems. First is it really ok to push a citizenship on someone? Some did not want it. Most countries in the world frown on dual citizenship, do you force them to revoke their existing citizenship of another republic? - b) offer them a choice. This seems a better option. This "choice" option is what it was effectivley done. However, by the tone of the video and some coments it should be viewed borderline ethnic clensing... (I have an issue with this part. Especially since I know some personal stories from the other republics which make it all that harder to swallow). So if this option is chosen, how long should the people in question have a choice? Three months? A year? Ten years? Permanently? Basically due to the fact the country ceased to exist they are in a judicial limbo. Do you allow them to vote while still not making the choice? So my question is, what would be a good way to handle citizenship? The first option? How do you handle dual citizenships? I am always proponent of choice, so I prefer the second option. In my mind if the window to choose was longer, at least so long that people had a chance to realize citizenship is important, it would be a good solution no? But until they do not chose it you have to consider them non-citizens. And for some who actively refuesed the new citizenship, emotionally clinging to the no longer existing one, what to do with them? Now a disclaimer.I really dont know of anything better to do regarding citizenship. It is however quite likely I am missing a better way and would trully be interested in learning it. All in all, I am sure a citizenship has to be handled in some way, event though I am not sure what that way is.
Thanks. The issue here wasn’t the decision over granting citizenship. Slovenia was actually rather progressive. It was the way that it was done. It may have sounded like a lot of time was given to people, but it wasn’t. There was a lot going on. To put it in perspective, the U.K. have EU citizens years to apply to stay. And yet after the deadline hundreds of thousands still hadn’t done so.
Why is forcing a problem? Every country forces citizenship to newborn. I see no problem with it being forced on adults. For example, Argentina will never let you go. So you force Slovenian citizenship to all. If they don't like it, not our problem.
Slovenia could have handled the situation better but I can't blame the Slovenians for not wanting to erase themselves like the Germans, French and English are.
@@JamesKerLindsay sadly your comment is not what happened. they refused citizenship because they thought the independce wouldnt last..after some time they got it and they still live in slovenia..refusing to learn language and thinking they still live in 1980 yugoslavia.
One video I would love to see is on New Zealand’s colonial past in the Pacific. Perhaps the terrible handling of the UN administration of Sāmoa? It’s something the New Zealand population needs to learn more about.
Hi Selwyn, thanks so much. Great suggestion! I really do want to return to this. I’ve been meaning to do a video for ages on how NZ and the US treat the concept of free association very differently.
@@hybridforcesofthegdl3313 You are probably unaware of Ponsonby dawn raids. NZ govt has since apologised for those but NZ still treats the PIs as a colony. Fruit pickers are still exploited and given no rights.
Cheers. This was a really little known aspect of the break up of Yugoslavia. I had wanted to do it for ages as I knew one of the erased. Very sad stories.
@@JamesKerLindsay You would like to be smart to Slovenians, what is appropriate and what is not? You would like to preach about human rights, you who throughout history stole, killed, smashed, and appropriated foreign lands and people ? We Slovenians are the Angels compared to you!
As someone from Slovenia, i know people who lived during that time and also confronted them about the issue. The government was constatly even after december 26th 1991 urged people to get the citzenship and warned those who didn't of the consequeces. Although there were some unfortunate people, many simply refused to get citzenship due to their political views. But i will admit that the country has gone through a lot of bad governments through its short history, which might be one of the reasons, why not everything that could be was done for those individuals.
94% of Slovenian people thought it’s right to take away residency from some people and leave them without any rights because you didn’t like their political views. That’s all one needs to know about your country.
@@alexmood6407 the political view in question was if the person recognized Slovenia as independent. Some people were so pro-yugoslavian, that they refused to get a Slovenian citzenship or go to another yugoslav republic abd get renewed yugoslav citzenship there.
Our Full support to our Slovenian brothers and our sweet Slovenian sisters , so - called Yugoslavs (Ivan - Lovers ) can move to Siberian Jungles . with Love from Belarus !
We're currently on a roadtrip around Slovenia, Thank-you so much for enriching our understanding of this beautiful but flawed country (in that way no different to any other).
Thanks. Slovenia is truly lovely. I have been many times (Don’t miss Lake Bohinj. It is stunning!) But it does have this dark chapter in its history. Enjoy the rest of the trip!
Great suggestion! I’ve actually meant to do a video on London independence at some point. I did an interview on this a number of years ago and always thought it would make a good video. Something a little bit different. :-)
The so called "errased", are Yugo-nostalgics - citizens of former Yugoslav republics that were openly agains independent Slovenia. Each one of them was offered a Slovenian citizenship which they refused to take. This video is a disgrace and far from truth. Secondly Slovenia has payed all of them and fulfilled EU court verdict - case closed. Insinuations that Slovenia has issues with human rights are simply wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if this was exported by slovenian leftist parties, just to harm current government.
- "Yugo-nostalgics - citizens of former Yugoslav republics that were openly agains independent Slovenia" - How is this relevant? We had a referendum on independence, one could vote for or against. Do you also think that the 5 % of the voters who voted against should be purged. I wouldn't be surprised if you did. - "Secondly Slovenia has payed all of them and fulfilled EU court verdict - case closed." - Slovenia only acted after a quarter of a century, after disregarding several court rulings on the matter. If that's an acievement for you, you obviously have very low standards regarding the rule of law.
@@GregorKramar Yup. They were given the chance to go get their citizenship. They didn't. What do these foreigners expect? Was our government supposed to go after them and beg them to get our citizenship? They gave them a deadline which they failed to take advantage of. Simple as. I'm an ethnic Slovene, paying ridiculous taxes, so these people can sue us in the EU court and then my taxes are used to give these people 5k€ per head? Because of their own negligence and stupidity? I've never recieved a fucking cent from my country, you have to be Bosnian/Albanian to qualify.
I know a guy that was erased. Let me cite what he said when Slovenia becomed independant:" Haha we (Serbs) will fuck you up so bad that nobody will ever think about independant Slovenia ever again." He didn't apply for citizenship.
Thanks. There were some like that. No one denies it. But there were many who weren’t. A war was starting. People may have been out if the country. (And there was no online anything in those days.) Others may have been elderly, ill or had mental health issues. That’s the point. It was a deeply unjust policy. And I’ve always found it troubling when people support a policy that punishes the innocent to get back at the guilty!
@@JamesKerLindsay I never suported it. In fact I protested about it back when I was in highschool. Not as mutch because of the people that got erased. But because the whole thing just took too long and nothing was done about it. Deport them, give them citizenship...whatever just get it over with. Everyone knew it would hurt our country in the long run.
Yes. It was a very shortsighted policy of the government. Populism and regard for human rights don’t often mix well. A surprisingly number of people are happy to ditch human rights - until it affects them!
Yes and then when Serbia was falling apart military and economically he came back to Slovenia and clamed to be erased to get slovenian pension which is few times bigger then serbian!
This isn't the case. Certainly, there were those who didn't apply because they were lazy or just didn't think it would have an effect. But there were many who failed to meet the deadline for other reasons. They may have been out of the country - and there was not online application system at the time. They may have had health problems, including mental health issues. Many were also poorly educated. It was an exceedingly tight deadline. For comparison, the UK has introduced a system for EU citizens to stay. This was open for several years and by the deadline it is still believed that several hundred thousand failed to apply in time. I think it is important not to buy into the story that they were all traitors or arrogant. Some were. Many others weren't. They were ordinary people who fell through the cracks for a variety of reasons.
@@JamesKerLindsay sorry you can't compare countries. You are not Slovenian or from any Balkan state and you judge the culture or costumes from point of your culture. If I judge actions of your country through my ways would be funny. You can not expect from country that just got independence to act fair and square. UK as so called democratic country does it act always accordingly. No state or country behave or act always fairly but in their own interest. Of course Slovenia didn't want to give those ppl citizenship lightly and ppl supported this and still mostly do. Look at raises problem in UK and violence... disaster. You make a video of Slovenian injustice to some minority...look at your own garbage in your country. Look into discrimination Austrians make towards us ....grow up.
@@AlexanderNovak0 I tried to be reasonable. But clearly it’s no use. Instead, you offer up the standard response of nationalists and bigots the world over. Tell someone they’re an ignorant foreigner and to mind their own business. How dare an outsider question what a country does to its own minorities!? Fortunately, the European Court of Human Rights looked into this and found Slovenia was at fault. I’ll settle on its findings.
99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
I want to hear from the older Slovenian people, what they think about the life in ex Yugoslavia , and how they are living after they gained independence.
Its controversial Im 23yo and thats what ived head Genuinely i think it was better in yougo But the stuff you could buy was limited, only salf made, people regularly smuggled stuff from austria. Pay/job/standers of living where crazy good i thing. You could get a job for life basically anywhere just by saying u want to work. People could build there house no problem and buy a car, maybe not a modern fancy one, ot they had to wait, but they could Then there is oppression, i would take it all for the country not beeing so s*t, (my other comment) But if u didn't go in the middle of the street saing stuff like tito fked up, or if somone didnt report u. You could prob think whatever. There was also a thing called club of communism, and you weren't allowed to be religious Then economy collapsed and all of the sudden we/they couldn't solve things with brotherhood and unity anymore.
@@EpicEnej You were not even born in Yougoslavia ... I call it Yougo-shit communist dictatorship. Compared to the west we were poor like church mauses and over one million people was working in Germany, austria,... Yougoslavia was tipical failed communist states and when cold war ended the western cheap loans also ended and this lead to the Yugoslavia bacrupcy-. We had for some time few hundred percent inflation per year, shortages of gas, coffee,... even toilet paper and washing powder. Not to mention we had special social bread for the poor peoples. Sic it was nightmare to survive.
This was not done by Slovenians, but by right-wingers who are now part of the political center in Slovenia. Never apologized, never regretted. They just destroyed people, families... Now Slovenians are paying for the sins of right-wing politics, which more than 75% do not support. Slovenians have nothing to do with it. Let this be said and done with. Tell everyone exactly who he was.
wrong..all these people will have a chance to become Slovenian citizens..half of them are soldiers of Yugoslav army who attacked Slovenia...half is calculating when Yugoslavia will win and become Serbians citizens..
Interesting video, thanks! Isn't it the case that there are somewhat similar issues in Estonia and Latvia? Ethnic Russians, formerly citizens of the USSR, that haven't been granted Estonian or Latvian citizenship? Maybe that would be an interesting topic to cover as well
Thanks a lot! You’re absolutely right. There are some really interesting and important parallels. I certainly hope to look into it. And it’s quite interesting to see how the different Baltic Republics have handled this issue.
@@JamesKerLindsay Greetings,nice video professor. In Lithuania we handled this issue differently unlike our neighbours Estonia and Latvia. When Lithuania was occupied by the USSR. Many Lithuanians joined partisan ranks during 1944-1956 and were lead by high ranking commanders such as: General Jonas Žemaitis-Vytautas , Adolfas Ramanauskas-Vanagas and Juozas Lukša-Daumantas fought USSR secret, opressive police NKVD predecessor of KGB. And also Lithuania Communist Party Central Committee First Secretary Antanas Sniečkus was factual leader of Lithuania Soviet Socialist Republic tried to make country uninhabitably to Russian colonists. Because of these succesful measures many Russians chose to flee to former Estonian SSR and Latvian SSR. Because in those countries Anti-Soviet partisan movement was shorter .
I don't know about Estonia, but in Latvia anyone who wants to get Latvian citizenship can do so without any obstacles. You just have to fulfill the requirements. I think it is hard for outsiders to understand the situation if you only look at the surface. It is actually encouraged that they get the citizenship, but a lot of them are loyal to russia. They basically want the citizenship and then vote for the pro russia party in our elections. And if you just look how that turned out for Ukraine or Belarus, it is not the best course of action in my opinion.
The guy have no clue. He is living on other side of the world in his buble and he just telling You propaganda of Yugo-nostalgic peoples which were mostly calculating Yugoslav communist and latter Serbian army will win!
Im one of the erased children. I had only 13 years and my brother 9 years old. Thanks for sharing the true. We aply so we can go back to Slovenia and was refused while my parents did not even want to try becose is a lost case. Thanks again. We were both born in Slovenia.
Well blame Your perents! They could get as everybady at that time slovenian citizenship for few "dinars" or slovenian tolars (slovenian currency at that time) this would be few EUR now!! I wonder if Your father was not a officer in Yugoslav army and this has something to do he never wanted ot he was afraid to ask for slovenian citizenship.
@@peterkincep7808 We could get visas as foreigners but no it was better to erase us and treat us like shit. People lived 40 years in Slovenia and permanent resident would be ok but nationalism was steonger. Check first and then write.
Thank you very much indeed. It is a tragic story. And it’s been interesting to read through the comments from Slovene nationalists who refuse to accept that the country did something fundamentally wrong, despite all the judgements made against the government internally and externally.
It's unfortunate and tragic, but I can understand. Look at what happened/is happening in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. There are a lot of non-citizens of Russian descend, who are stateless living in the Baltic states, with almost no chance of obtaining it. Sure, they can go to Russia and become the Russian nationals, but they choose not too. I have friends in Estonia with exactly this status, and as much as I think and care for their well-being, emotions apart, I understand Estonia, being a nation state of Estonians, whose demographics being abused during Soviet occupation.
Thanks. You are absolutely right. The treatment of the Russian communities in the Baltics has also been atrocious. And there are some interesting and important parallels. I really do hope to take a look at this in a future video.
@@JamesKerLindsay they can learn basic Estonian and gain full citizenship. It's what's expected in other states either de fact if not de jure. I can't see what's difficult in learning the majority state language of the country you decide freely to live in. Would you live in Estonia and refuse to learn Estonian?
@@SionTJobbins You should not be forced to learn estonian in order to keep your right to live without discrimination or persecution in a place where you may have been born. One solution would be to have 2 or more official languages as in many european countries. i.e. belgium (3 official languages). Even India which was a colony of the UK adopted english as a second official language. I lived in Latvia for 7 years and chose to learn russian instead of latvian, because most people there do speak the language and it is so much more useful than latvian which no one speaks outside of latvia. I suspect very much the same is true for Estonia.
During the WWII the occupiers forced families from Slovenia to move to Serbia. Their intent was to make their lives miserable. However, Serbian people welcomed refugees from Slovenia like their own and helped them to resettle. After the war they kept in touch for many years. Then in the 90s, mr. Zimmermann noded to Slovenuan oposition and that was the beginnig of the end.
Honestly, I never knew about this. Thanks for the video James! Slovenia's choice to do something like that really was shameful. Perhaps a video on Luxembourg one day? Or another small country perhaps? I am still confused as to how Singapore became independent lol. I hope all is well with you!
The republics in Yugoslavia had their republican citizenship and permanent residence if you went to live in another republic. It is necessary to know the interwar nationalist propaganda against Slovenes in order to understand this problem. People who had permanent residence in Slovenia and did not deregister it when they had already moved to the west or to other republics during the Yugoslav era were erased. There were also a few who came back to live later or lived permanently in Slovenia, but these were mostly Slovenes by nationality. In those conditions when Slovenes were still learning to manage the country, they thought that people would register themselves within 6 months, so that they would even know who still lives in the country and who does not. However, it must also be said that these erased people were able to return to Slovenia at any time and regain their permanent residence, which was not possible in other Yugoslav republics, only if you were of the majority nationality. There were also such cases, for example, an Albanian who lived illegally in Germany and the Germans wanted to extradite him to Serbia because he had Serbian republican citizenship, which is more than just a permanent residence that expires in six months if you do not live in the country, but it was rejected by the Serbs. Only Slovenes wanted to take this Albanian because he once lived in Slovenia for some time during Yugoslavia and had a permanent residence which he did not deregister. It is not a problem for the erased to get their permanent residence back in Slovenia, but now that they see how fair and orderly Slovenia is, they want to have Slovenian citizenship under the same conditions as they were offered in 1991. They do not sue because they do not get the status they had in Yugoslavia, but because they would like citizenship and compensation for the time when they were not in Slovenia and were erased from their permanent residence. Due to propaganda, because no one in Slovenia stopped it and did not pay attention to how foreign nationalist forces would try to portray Slovenian independence as a criminal act, the lie became the truth. The Slovenes needed not only to learn how to run the country, but also to teach the nation that in reality other nations are much more nationalistic and wish them ill and do not have the same idea of the world. It is necessary to know the history, how foreigners ruled the Slovenes for a thousand years. They ruled the Slovenes by denationalizing them and confusing them by inciting one Slovene against another, and so a strong unified affiliation never developed. And they were also taught how incompetent they were that if it weren’t for their masters, others would destroy them. It is also important to know that other nations considered themselves more and looked down on the Slovenes because of their nationalist propaganda, so that at the beginning it was beneath their honor to cooperate and accept the new state. Due to the confusion about belonging to either communism or Yugoslavia or pan Slavism or the newly created state, politicians quickly began to take advantage of this without conscience and thus deepen the rift between Slovenes, so that Slovenes have no idea how others treat them, because they quarrel with each other and have their own themes. In Slovenia, there is almost a civil war between the old communist elite, which took over the country practically after independence again, because the newly formed parties did not get acquainted with politics and did not remove the former elite from the main positions and media. The Slovenes in Yugoslavia were the most enslaved nation in the world, because no other nation had to give so much for other nations. If we had not left Yugoslavia, given Slovenia's economic backwardness due to the withdrawal of its funds, Slovenia would be less developed today than Bosnia. In terms of purchasing power, it was already captured by Serbia in the 1990s. In Slovenia, immigrants received all the best apartments, but Slovenes sometimes had to wait for years to get their turn. And many did not pay the bills because they saw Slovenia as their prey and no one could do anything to them. Also because during the Yugoslav era, due to high inflation, the Serbs gave their Serb people stamps to sell to Slovenes at high prices, and a hundred other things could be said about it, so in the end independence was the only option if they did not want to go bankrupt or however, to emigrate from Yugoslavia, as forced by the authorities last year in Yugoslavia.
@@kosarkosar7683 In Yugoslavia we have had all Yugoslavian citizenship, not repulican one. We have had just different nationality (what wasn`t the same) depends of your own nationality. I have remembered in 1983 by passing papers for Faculty study. My friend has written in place for citizenship Slovenian and he hasn`t had to change it to Yugoslavian. He has had a lot of problems with police. So he hasproved just Yugoslavian citizenship was able in Yugoslavia.
@@bojanstare8667 It was republican-Yugoslav citizenship, which was valid only within Yugoslavia. In all the former republics, those who did not have this were treated and erased. Unlike the fact that you were able to arrange this in Slovenia without a bribe, you only showed that you had a permanent residence in Slovenia at any time, not only in the last year, if you wanted to be registered again. In other republics, they even erased those who were born in the republic and emigrated from it through Yugoslavia or abroad, unless you were a member of a majority nation. It is true that everywhere in Yugoslavia at that time they had existential problems and disorder in transition, because no one was ready for everything that happened. However, in Slovenia they at least admitted that the system was not perfect and they were never denied re-application of documents, even if they no longer lived in Slovenia at the time. Of the 180,000 people with other republican-Yugoslav papers who had permanent residence in Slovenia and lived in Slovenia at the time, 500 were erased because they had not edited new papers until one year after independence, and it was not known who still lived in republic. About 1,000 of them later returned across the already established border and all had permanent residence status without any problems. They just had to wait for the bureaucracy to change the documents, but they were not allowed citizenship because they did not live in Slovenia at the time, but came across the border back from Western Europe, mostly where they worked. Others had built houses in their hometowns and felt at home there, never even thinking of living in Slovenia permanently. Only in Macedonia did this problem begin to be publicly acknowledged last year. In other republics, they will never admit that they themselves have erased people because they do not want to show that they too have made mistakes, and they are afraid that others will use their confession in propaganda against them. Because the belittling of others is still very much alive in Yugoslavia. In Slovenia, this accusation appeared as a belittling of those parties that participated in independence, as nowadays covid measures against the ruling parties, because there is a strong struggle between the parties and they are not interested in how it will be used against the state, according to the interpellation events for nationalist propaganda against Slovenes.
@@kosarkosar7683 First, what do you mean with republican-Yugoslav citizenship? Second, all citizens of Slovenia (residents) have got certificate, if he or she have had Slovenian nationality in evidences. Others have had to ask for new citizenship of Slovenia. Even my father (born in Ljubljana, but he was in evidence in Čabar, Croatia) has had to ask for new citizenship. Also his friend, who has mother, born in Austria, have had to do the same way. Residence is more complicated. If you have permanent residence in Slovenia, youshouldn`t loose it through the other nationality. You could be asked by government to arrange papers for a new citizenship. It was their will, if they wanted to have new citizenship or not. But government have deleted their permanent residence papers without law basics. Asa matter of fact, it was just this idiot reaction of ministry for internal affairs, which has made such mistake. And that`s why EU court for human rights have had all the evidence for a conviction. Evidently government act was fair, but not legal. Same as todays government make a lot of mistakes to override laws and constitution. Same way everytime when conservative partei is in government. It is really crazy.
I assume the problem was some people are mean no matter where you go. Slovenians were a lot of times treated poorly so when some vengeful people finally got to be in charge they were rutheless. I'm glad we are doing better these days. Being respectful towards people who are respectful towards us. I just want to emphasize. There should be a legal requirement for people who live in slovenia to speak slovenian. You can speak whatever you want at home and with friends but when you are in a formal inviroment or interacting with other slovenians you SHOULD know how to speak slovenian (unless you are a tourist ofc). You won't go to america and speak your language and imagine everyone will understand you. Respect us and we will respect you. (At last the normal ones will at last)
It's a little known issue with a reason. Slovenia's population has always been the most homogenous out of all former Yugoslav regions. Therefore, persons in the minority who were ultimately not eligible to gain Slovenian citizenship have largely brought it onto themselves. A person who is not aware of what is happening in their immediate surrounding, does not belong in the surrounding.
Ah yes, another charming voice of Slovenian intolerance. Seriously, I’m not sure if all the Slovenian nationalists have any idea what this comments section has done for the country’s image for anyone outside who believes that Slovenes are all very easy going and tolerant. Most are. But it’s interesting to see that it has it own share of narrow minded xenophobes.
@@JamesKerLindsay You are xenophobe and a nerrow minded lier. 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!! Even people which were fighting against Slovenian independence with arms.
I was researching through British and American archives and newspapers such as "The Times", "Miami Herald", and "Los Angeles Post" from the 1970s and early 1980s. I was surprised to come across derogatory remarks made by Slovenians about Kosovars, Macedonians, Montenegrins, and Serbians. They were described as lazy, dirty, and nasty. The Slovenians portrayed themselves as superior and felt ashamed to be part of a union with these Yugoslavian states. For instance, a Slovenian journalist interviewed by Miami Herald in 1981 mentioned feeling like he was in Egypt or India when in Prishtina or Skopje. Another individual claimed that these states were taking advantage of Slovenia. These comments were made before Milosevic rose to power.
I can confirm that this is unfortunately still the case. Maybe not in newspapers (woke culture an all). Slovenians like to imagine themselves as "bus bees"; so much so that they somehow managed to convince other exYu republik of it...
This neglects the fact that very few of those opposed the state. There were lots of reasons why people didn’t apply in time. They may have been ill. They may have had mental health problems. They may have been out of the country. They had a a short window of opportunity to apply. And there were no online forms then. The Slovenian Supreme Court decided the government was wrong. The ECHR did as well. Just accept it.
@@JamesKerLindsay May be You have mentall helth problems to. 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
The break up of Yugoslavia caught many by surprise and many did not want to face the reality of what was happening. My wife suddenly found that she was a citizen of 2 countries: Croatia and Yugo. This only came to light when she tried to obtain a new Yugo passport during the war/break up. A Croatian passport was 'obtained' by her mother as she had the political contacts in both Croatia and Yugo.
It should be noted that even today, in 2023, most Slovenes do not understand or refuse to acknowledge what this was all about. They say that people who did not apply for citizenship are now claiming it in bad faith. In reality, this issue has nothing to do with citizenship, it has to do with permanent residence; CITIZENSHIP AND PERMANENT RESIDENCE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, you can have neither, one or both. Actually, it is perfectly normal to have citizenship of one country and permanent residence of another when working abroad. So this was all about people having their permanent residence permit revoked in an illegitimate procedure. Moreover, many Slovenians still speculate that those who did not apply for citizenship were in fact against Slovenian independence. Well, that may be true for few of them, but the vast majority were not against Slovenian independence. Some did not know that they did not already have Slovenian citizenship, some were not aware of the offer, others could not apply for it because they were not in the country at the time. I even know one person from Croatia who was obviously in favour of Slovenian and Croatian independence and who knew about applying for citizenship but decided against it. He argued: I have Croatian citizenship and a Slovenian permanent residence, I do not need/want Slovenian citizenship. Oh boy, was he in for a nasty surprise. Fortunately, his profession was in high demand, so his employer quickly sorted the matter out. Now he has Slovenian citizenship, which he never needed/wanted, because he would have settled for just keeping a residence permit. I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that it would be legitimate to deprive a person of permanent residence only if it can be shown that they have participated in aggression or have left the country permanently. (Disclaimer: all my comments on RUclips are temporary and I withhold the right to delete them without notice)
Thanks. I agree. If you read through the comments, there are a lot of Slovenes who repeat the talking points you mentioned. It really wasn’t as straightforward as they like to think. Many didn’t realise the implications. And it is indeed wrong to say that they were all against independence. And I have to say that this is the first time I have ever read a legal disclaimer on a RUclips comment! :-)
@@JamesKerLindsay Thank you for your comment, it was a pleasant surprise. I would only like to add that IMHO one of the reasons why this matter is still not clarified in the Slovenian public is that even the supporters of the "erased" people are not aware that this is NOT about citizenship; they only point to the inhumane consequences of the matter instead of pointing out the obvious (legal) contradiction in the argumentation of the opponents of the "erased" people too. As for the disclaimer, I always try my best to write insightful and balanced comments, but they almost always end up in a huge flaming. So I end up deleting the comment rather than participating in that.
As somebody who's travelled to that part of the world several times I sympathize with Slovenia. They gave these people opportunity. And unlike the proper and on time Slovenian, they were late. Do what you're told when you're told to do it in some cases. Slovenia = German efficiency and properness mixed with Slavic culture.
Sorry but that is simply not true. It was a time of huge upheaval. Some weren’t in the country. Others may have had mental health issues or other problems. Britain have people years to register as EU citizens after Brexit and hundreds of thousands missed the deadliness Slovenia gave people three months - in the pre-internet age. Really, this wasn’t appropriate. And let’s remember that the European Court of Human Rights agreed it wasn’t. Seriously, there’s no real defence for what happened. It was, quite literally, inhuman.
@@JamesKerLindsay I will agree with you doctor. I am in no position to argue with the facts or somebody of your achievements. Slovenia is one of the most homogeneous populations in Europe. Part of you deep down must not blame them for wanting to keep it that way. One Almanac I read said 99% Roman Catholic and 95% Slovenian. Probably doesn't make it right though. Thank you for the information.
@@1joshjosh1 Thanks. There’s certainly no reason to defer to me just because if the titles! :-) Slovenia is a lovely country. I know it very well and have been many times. But this was an unfortunate stain on that reputation. It was worth conversing as it was one of the lesser known aspects of the break up of Yugoslavia.
@@JamesKerLindsay It literally is German efficiency mixed with Slavic culture. Many Bosnians and Serbians accuse Slovenians of only thinking about making money and being on time. 😆
Slovenians considered themselfes usually as central european, not part of the balkan. The ppl from other parts of Ex-YU who live there remind them of this past they want to leave behind. But I was surprised about comments from slovenes under yt videos, there is also something like Jugo- nostalgia there
Geographically, we're in the Balkans, which begins with our Westernmost border, the Soča river. Culturally we're Slavic, but with strong central European influence. (former German/Austrian dominion) Slovenia is mostly Catholic, and has a long Christian tradition, going back to the days of (sometimes violent) Christianization in the HRE. This puts us closer to something like the Czech republic, or Slovakia, which were also Slavic nations part of the former Austro-Hungarian empire. Politically we also gravitate towards Germany/central Europe, like Croatia south of us. But not towards Belgrade, the former capital of Yugoslavia and current capital of Serbia. Even during the Yugoslav days, Slovenia preferred our own autonomous policy over listening to Belgrade. That's a short recap.
It's always incredible to hear one's own history from a foreign perspective. It really highlights how much information is influenced by mass media and how little is sometimes known about the full picture. In Slovenia, everyone had the opportunity to obtain the new nationality, including those who later claimed to have been erased. The issues arose when the process was closed, and some missed the due dates. Fortunately, this matter has now been resolved. Let's all strive to stay close to the facts and understand the complexities of such situations.
A bejž no in kako je bila stvar rešena? Z maščevanjem nad ubogimi ljudmi, ki se niso mogli in znali braniti in z neupoštevanjem odločbe US ? Ali pa mogoče z bednimi odškodninami, ki niti slučajno niso kompenzirale nastale škode ??
I wonder what would've happened with all the EU citizens that chose to not take care of their status in the UK after Brexit? Would the UK's highest courts also have ruled that these EU citizens who decided not to sort out their status in the UK had a reasonable expectation that they wouldn't be treated the same as foreigners that were only then moving to the UK and that they won't lose their residency? That these EU citizens had a reasonable expectation that them not sorting out their status will not significantly worsen their legal situation and that they will still be able to reside in the UK if they so chose? Because that was literally the reasoning of the Slovenian constitutional court. So, what would've happened to any EU citizen who actively chose not to sort out their post-Brexit status in the UK? And yes, for this to be even slightly equivalent, they would've also ignored the additional time to sort out the situation. And let's ignore the fact that these EU citizens weren't supporters of an enemy country that was literally driving tanks around the UK, shooting up stuff.
In fact, the EU citizens living in Britain who failed to meet the deadline is likely to become an issue. There are estimated to be several hundred thousand who missed it - even after years of notice (remember that in Slovenia it was just a few months, and all this in an era before things could be done online). There have already been cases of lots of elderly who didn't know they had to do it, often because they had been here for decades. So, yes, I fully expect court cases. And I really have problems with this idea that they were all traitors. They weren't. This is a lazy justification that has crept in. Sadly, I suspect many of these repeating it probably weren't even alive when this happened. It was a confusing time. Many of those who missed it may have had mental health problems. Others might have been out of the country and unable to get back. (There was a war going on.) Besides, the Slovenian Constitutional Court and the ECHR have both made their rulings on this and decided that the Government behaved unacceptably.
@@JamesKerLindsay Well, once we see how Britain solves that issue, we can revisit whether Slovenia truly committed such a heinous act. I'll give you that those who were genuinely not capable of understanding or acting on the situation shouldn't have been treated this way. But anyone that had the right to vote and was able to sort things out has zero excuse, IMHO, and I wouldn't hesitate considering them opportunists at best. I've given you a translation of the Slovenian Constitutional Court's reasoning. That's why I will now be expecting you to blast Britain equally harshly if they don't just let everyone who didn't and doesn't sort out their status carry on as if nothing happened. I mean, if the UK were to abide by the same standards as our CC imposed on our government, there would've been no need for anyone to sort out their status in Britain in the first place. But hey, we're used to double standards from northern/western EU people down here. If we do it, it's criminal. If you do it, it's business as usual. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Have you seen situation in UK now? How manny Polack , mosstly truck drivers, have gone back in EU because of Brexit? Markets were the same as market in Soviet Union in 50-is. :-)
Astonishing, completely unknown to me, even that I fancy myself as an informed and inquisitive individual. Europe is truly a troubled pot of grievances... I knew of the case of Maribor 1918-1919, unrest and expulsion of German and Hungarian speaking from the city. Around 1900 they constituted 82.3% of the city population, but the surrounding lands were predominantly Slovenian. What shaped me as a young person was a little event of a train ride in Switzerland, Luzern to Lugano. As we closed on Tessin/Ticino a double name of station showed: German atop/Italian below. The next station was Italian atop/German below. Next was only Italian. This simple case was so impressive to me: Why can't we learn from the Swiss to live with an ethnic mix without the hysteria of bureaucratic or personal chicanes and grievances? Apparently we still cannot.
I appreciate this kind of topics so much. There is nothing so small when it comes to issues of human rights violations. It's so easy to ignore when you are fortunate not to be a part of the marginalized 1%. Good to know that EU is looking into this as well for applicant states.
Thanks you so much. And you are absolutely right. Human rights are about individual rights. Every violation, even if it seems small, is a violation of someone's rights. And it will deeply affect that person. People really shouldn't lose sight of this. Great point!
@@JamesKerLindsay The republics in Yugoslavia had their republican citizenship and permanent residence if you went to live in another republic. It is necessary to know the interwar nationalist propaganda against Slovenes in order to understand this problem. People who had permanent residence in Slovenia and did not deregister it when they had already moved to the west or to other republics during the Yugoslav era were erased. There were also a few who came back to live later or lived permanently in Slovenia, but these were mostly Slovenes by nationality. In those conditions when Slovenes were still learning to manage the country, they thought that people would register themselves within 6 months, so that they would even know who still lives in the country and who does not. However, it must also be said that these erased people were able to return to Slovenia at any time and regain their permanent residence, which was not possible in other Yugoslav republics, only if you were of the majority nationality. There were also such cases, for example, an Albanian who lived illegally in Germany and the Germans wanted to extradite him to Serbia because he had Serbian republican citizenship, which is more than just a permanent residence that expires in six months if you do not live in the country, but it was rejected by the Serbs. Only Slovenes wanted to take this Albanian because he once lived in Slovenia for some time during Yugoslavia and had a permanent residence which he did not deregister. It is not a problem for the erased to get their permanent residence back in Slovenia, but now that they see how fair and orderly Slovenia is, they want to have Slovenian citizenship under the same conditions as they were offered in 1991. They do not sue because they do not get the status they had in Yugoslavia, but because they would like citizenship and compensation for the time when they were not in Slovenia and were erased from their permanent residence. Due to propaganda, because no one in Slovenia stopped it and did not pay attention to how foreign nationalist forces would try to portray Slovenian independence as a criminal act, the lie became the truth. The Slovenes needed not only to learn how to run the country, but also to teach the nation that in reality other nations are much more nationalistic and wish them ill and do not have the same idea of the world. It is necessary to know the history, how foreigners ruled the Slovenes for a thousand years. They ruled the Slovenes by denationalizing them and confusing them by inciting one Slovene against another, and so a strong unified affiliation never developed. And they were also taught how incompetent they were that if it weren’t for their masters, others would destroy them. It is also important to know that other nations considered themselves more and looked down on the Slovenes because of their nationalist propaganda, so that at the beginning it was beneath their honor to cooperate and accept the new state. Due to the confusion about belonging to either communism or Yugoslavia or pan Slavism or the newly created state, politicians quickly began to take advantage of this without conscience and thus deepen the rift between Slovenes, so that Slovenes have no idea how others treat them, because they quarrel with each other and have their own themes. In Slovenia, there is almost a civil war between the old communist elite, which took over the country practically after independence again, because the newly formed parties did not get acquainted with politics and did not remove the former elite from the main positions and media. The Slovenes in Yugoslavia were the most enslaved nation in the world, because no other nation had to give so much for other nations. If we had not left Yugoslavia, given Slovenia's economic backwardness due to the withdrawal of its funds, Slovenia would be less developed today than Bosnia. In terms of purchasing power, it was already captured by Serbia in the 1990s. In Slovenia, immigrants received all the best apartments, but Slovenes sometimes had to wait for years to get their turn. And many did not pay the bills because they saw Slovenia as their prey and no one could do anything to them. Also because during the Yugoslav era, due to high inflation, the Serbs gave their Serb people stamps to sell to Slovenes at high prices, and a hundred other things could be said about it, so in the end independence was the only option if they did not want to go bankrupt or however, to emigrate from Yugoslavia, as forced by the authorities last year in Yugoslavia.
Excellent video - I did not know this. Citizenship is obviously important - yet I do believe countries are ultimately responsible for who gets it. No human should suffer from statelessness... yet how do we measure that with the soverign right of nations to pick her own people? It's not an easy question, especially when ethnicity is involved. It's easy to proclaim 'oh it doesn't matter, we're all equal' - the latter, sure. But not the former. Yet having that stance requires alot of work. Idk what I'm getting at here - but Westerners can have a flippant attitude towards citizenship, statehood and ethnic history. If you want to have a multilinguistic country with various cultures, leaders must understand it won't always be easy and there are real challenges. By studying Slovenia and the broader Yugoslavia, we can build a nexus of wisdom in handling these complexities.
Thanks very much. I know many people see this as a relatively minor issue as compared with the wars of the 1990s. However, it is very important in its own way.
2 million people Slovenia with their industry, sience and hard working mentality (closest to Austrians nad Germans) bassicaly held above the water economy of the rest of 20 million Yugoslavs, employed many of them and gave them decent conditions to live. Slovenia accepted 70,000 war refugees in first half of the 1990s, schooled them, gave them jobs, shelters, medical care. Even after independence and especially since EU entry, Slovenia is financially supporting tens of thousands of migrants from, gave them and whole their families good financial transfers for giving births and doing bassically nothing. They are all heavily sucked into the Slovenian state treasury. More and more are coming, just like otherplaces in Europe, not speaking the language, Slovenians are slowly becoming a minority. So stop trashing on this beatiful country.
As a Slovenian that lived threw that I am asamed that it happened and the cover up afterwords. But it should be stated clarly that everyone who registered acordenly, was granted cidisenship and that it was defined automaticly by a place of birthy and not nacionality.
Thank you. You are right. It is important to note that the large majority of Yugoslavs living in Slovenia at the time applied for, and were granted, citizenship. It is just a shame that the government behaved so badly towards those who missed the deadline.
@@JamesKerLindsayYou have to understand that Yugoslavia wes a union and that the mayorty of its citisents have nacional and federal percepcion of them selphs. A Yugoslav nacionaly was never mayoritly excpted and the county borke up because it coudnt agree on a its future organization. Slovins and Croats were for confederation white Serbs and Montenegrions were for unitarian stat Bosnians and Macedonians were somwhere in the midle. Slovins were lingvicticaly diferent and we were the most econamicly developed republic dus we had the biggest populiation of workers from other parts of the union, there were sam nacionalistic, religous and especialy economic tentions ad segregation but generaly they were excepted by mayority and they assimilated quiqly becoming an integral part of Slovenian society. As such they mayortly suported independence on referendum and in the war that folowed. A large procetage of erised were army and other federal intitutios employs and ther families as ther funtions were inhertly ageist Slovinian sestion causess they were seen as animies in many cases they alsow moved with the shrinking federation not realizing that its days were numebered, caming bect to Slovenia due to economic, political ore social unrest in the repubics of their birth. Due to the antiy sesecional creck down and a short war some pubick Yugoslav mlitary yuresdicinal personal were proclamed as state enymies and unwanted. In any case this legistration was past on in termoil of indepedance strugle when the Slovins felt that our esparation of an independant stat was in dangere. In 30 years Slovenia excepted far more people from formar YU that it erased dus it was esentaly unjust, unenececary and economicly stupid not to correct the low whan the dagere ended.
@@majolko Pomanševalna imena se uporabljajo za tiste, ki se skrivajo za profili. Me veseli da ti angleško pisanje ne predstavlja težav , čudi me pa ne, da te ob takem obnašanju čudno gledajo tako domači kot tudi tuji slušatelji. Lp
@@JamesKerLindsay I'm not anywhere near the part of the world you are discussing. But if the people were given the opportunity to become citizens of Slovenia and missed the deadline, then isn't that on them? Why are you having more sympathy for the people who failed to be responsible, than for the people who did things correctly? I don't understand. Btw...very interesting video. I have never heard any of this history regarding the breakup of Yugoslavia.
@@JamesKerLindsay They missed the deadline because of their own damn fault. Traitors, who were saying all the time "this is still Yugoslavia" and tried to resist the reality they were going trough. Instead of doing what they were supposed to, they were playing a hero and throwing a tantrum about Slovenias independance. They had more than enough time to apply for citizenship and they wasted it with throwing a fit. (this is not a popular oppinion, but it's true)
The people crying most about Slovenia becoming independent are from the same coutnries that are now fleeing here for better life and EU pay. Slovenia is greater than any other Ex Yugo country.
This is a bunch of nonsense from an outsider unfamiliar with the root causes of the Slovenes' actions. The Slovenian people have a right to determine what sort of country they're going to have. They can see what's happened to Britain and America where the immigrants have the rights at the expense of those already there. As a journalist covering the wars in the former Yugoslavia I saw "Britons" of Pakistani and other Muslim nationalities fighting the Brits in the UN peacekeeping force. What was the point of attacking the peacekeepers? Well, they were British and these British citizens hate the British. That's what Slovenes want to avoid. The Serbs in Slovenia represented, and still represent, a fifth column working with the Serbian government to subvert the will of the Slovenian people. Look what the Serbs are doing in Bosnia. Do you think the Serbs in Slovenia are any different than those in Bosnia? In Dubrovnik Serbs acted as forward artillery observers for the JNA guns shelling the city. I personally witnessed a number of cases of this. A Croatian-American friend of mine, a man born and raised in the USA, took a job with a Slovenian firm. This was long before Yugoslavia broke up. His Slovenian employer made it clear that he was expected to learn the Slovenian language right away. I think you'll find many of the erased didn't see that as important. The Slovenes, and everybody else on Planet Earth, have a right to defend their culture.
This is a lazy comment with extremely unpleasant racist overtones. I know the region extremely well. I have been to Slovenia many times. I actually knew one of the erased. I’d actually say that your knowledge of the situation is very limited - and depressingly nationalist. You clearly have no idea about the Serbian community in Slovenia, which is in fact very well integrated. If you bothered to watch the video, and knew the situation, the vast majority of Serbs - and Croats, and Bosniaks, and Albanians - applied for citizenship and got it without a problem. It’s just that a few failed to do, often for reasons that weren’t their fault, and then faced a horrifically traumatic time. But you’d rather present it as Slovenes ‘defending their culture’ rather than Slovenes doing the right thing by their fellow human beings. But everything in your comment tells anyone reading this exchange that compassion and humanity is clearly not your thing.
@@JamesKerLindsay I am Slovenian and I am praud to be Slovenian. And he is telling he truth. Not so long ago treitors were shot. But Slovenia offered citizenship to almost everybady even to the people who fought against Slovenia at that time. 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
There were issues and some were erased by mistake, but a lot of those people didn't want our documents because they believed serboslavia will win the war.
Again, dear James, the map is not correct. :) But that aside, it's nice to see a Western Yugoslav-themed video in which Serbs are not portrayed as sole contributors to the horrors of the 90's collapse. And, again, a nicely done video. :)
Thanks. Much appreciated! And the point about the map duly noted. :-) By the way, keep an eye out for the video the week after next. Assuming there’s no big developments elsewhere, I hope to do another Yugoslavia video. You might want to see it.
I have known a Serbian family living in Slovene capital Ljubljana that thought during the time of the war that Yugoslavian army would win. The mother was so sure of Yugoslav cause that she refused to take her kids to a shelter during the air raids, staying in her flat even when we could hear the Yugoslav MIGs breaking the sound barrier above our heads and air raid sirens blaring. In her own wors: "The pilots will know not to bomb a Serb home." That particular family had some issues with getting the documents since they refused to get them at first, but even they got them. Later the Slovene government even sold them the public flat that they lived in for a symbolic price.
EU and Slovenia (2 million) is not obligated to take care and support the whole Balkan (20 million). The same goes for ME, Africa and other third world countries. If those independent countries can't make any economic and safety progress in all those decades, that is definetely not fault of Slovenia or other Western countries.
Slovenia is home to 150,000 - 200,000 ex-Yugoslavs, after Slovenia gained its independence, it arranged for its citizens. The others did not want to do this, in the time set for acquiring Slovenian citizenship, because they did not want to renounce their citizenship of the former Yugoslav republics. Later, however, they were blackmailed and dramatized because they were treated like everyone else who wanted Slovenian citizenship. In each country, the laws for obtaining citizenship apply in each country!
@@Janez-h1e 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
Thanks, but not really true. There were most certainly Yugoslavs, in the sense that there are British, but then people can define themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish.
@@JamesKerLindsay Well, you could have said European or even just human. Not saying if erased are serbs, croats or roma. Who were they? Yugoslav has as broad meaning as a soviet.
@@EvgeniPetrov Who were they? South Slavs. People from Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia&Hercegovina. Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. Do you need any more info?
It seems reasonable to me that you must comply with the laws of citizenship after being informed and enabled to do so, especially when >90% of participants voted for that country to exist and again >90% agreed you should comply - and given that many of those who didn’t comply did so because they didn’t want that citizenship because they were in a tiny minority who were opposed to the existence of the country. Indeed, some had even taken up arms to prevent the existence of the country! Rather than a legal process to secure the rights that they had previously specifically declined, it seems there should rather have been legal process of treason against them!
Exactly and many of this who have taken up arms against independance Slovenia get at the end slovenia citizenship and jobs and pensions in Slovenia. Which is a shame!
Yes, Slovenia has the best of everything and takes pride in its nature. Slovenians talk of the mountain peaks as if they were family members. Law and order is evident in every manicured flowerbed. It makes the tacit racism underneath the veneer all the more shocking and cruel.
@@Xenia9 I haven't lived in those times but my family have experienced all that you named. Mussolini's men burning Trieste Community Hall, driving families out of the city, forced removals by Germans from Steier, crossing the barbed wire block into Ljubljana. But you may not be aware of treatment of "čefurji" or Facebook's Zlovenija.
@@freezing5 And you cross south border and law and order gradually disappears southern you go. So you know who you are dealing with! Is it still so shockingly cruel now?
As a Slovenian who lived thru a brotherly war. I would rather ask that question to Croats and Serbs. We still love our Yugo brothers, but they pretty much all hate us. Slava Slovanom! Sužnjem Evropejcem in Arabcem tisoče let!
Dude, maybe our polititians hate eachother, or they want us to think so. I am a Croat, i have many Friends from Slovenia, they Spend Summers in Croatia, we Spend Winters in Slovenia, we eat and Drink together, we laugh and cry together. I don't Care what anyone says or what country we live in, IT will be so forever.
The republics in Yugoslavia had their republican citizenship and permanent residence if you went to live in another republic. It is necessary to know the interwar nationalist propaganda against Slovenes in order to understand this problem. People who had permanent residence in Slovenia and did not deregister it when they had already moved to the west or to other republics during the Yugoslav era were erased. There were also a few who came back to live later or lived permanently in Slovenia, but these were mostly Slovenes by nationality. In those conditions when Slovenes were still learning to manage the country, they thought that people would register themselves within 6 months, so that they would even know who still lives in the country and who does not. However, it must also be said that these erased people were able to return to Slovenia at any time and regain their permanent residence, which was not possible in other Yugoslav republics, only if you were of the majority nationality. There were also such cases, for example, an Albanian who lived illegally in Germany and the Germans wanted to extradite him to Serbia because he had Serbian republican citizenship, which is more than just a permanent residence that expires in six months if you do not live in the country, but it was rejected by the Serbs. Only Slovenes wanted to take this Albanian because he once lived in Slovenia for some time during Yugoslavia and had a permanent residence which he did not deregister. It is not a problem for the erased to get their permanent residence back in Slovenia, but now that they see how fair and orderly Slovenia is, they want to have Slovenian citizenship under the same conditions as they were offered in 1991. They do not sue because they do not get the status they had in Yugoslavia, but because they would like citizenship and compensation for the time when they were not in Slovenia and were erased from their permanent residence. Due to propaganda, because no one in Slovenia stopped it and did not pay attention to how foreign nationalist forces would try to portray Slovenian independence as a criminal act, the lie became the truth. The Slovenes needed not only to learn how to run the country, but also to teach the nation that in reality other nations are much more nationalistic and wish them ill and do not have the same idea of the world. It is necessary to know the history, how foreigners ruled the Slovenes for a thousand years. They ruled the Slovenes by denationalizing them and confusing them by inciting one Slovene against another, and so a strong unified affiliation never developed. And they were also taught how incompetent they were that if it weren’t for their masters, others would destroy them. It is also important to know that other nations considered themselves more and looked down on the Slovenes because of their nationalist propaganda, so that at the beginning it was beneath their honor to cooperate and accept the new state. Due to the confusion about belonging to either communism or Yugoslavia or pan Slavism or the newly created state, politicians quickly began to take advantage of this without conscience and thus deepen the rift between Slovenes, so that Slovenes have no idea how others treat them, because they quarrel with each other and have their own themes. In Slovenia, there is almost a civil war between the old communist elite, which took over the country practically after independence again, because the newly formed parties did not get acquainted with politics and did not remove the former elite from the main positions and media. The Slovenes in Yugoslavia were the most enslaved nation in the world, because no other nation had to give so much for other nations. If we had not left Yugoslavia, given Slovenia's economic backwardness due to the withdrawal of its funds, Slovenia would be less developed today than Bosnia. In terms of purchasing power, it was already captured by Serbia in the 1990s. In Slovenia, immigrants received all the best apartments, but Slovenes sometimes had to wait for years to get their turn. And many did not pay the bills because they saw Slovenia as their prey and no one could do anything to them. Also because during the Yugoslav era, due to high inflation, the Serbs gave their Serb people stamps to sell to Slovenes at high prices, and a hundred other things could be said about it, so in the end independence was the only option if they did not want to go bankrupt or however, to emigrate from Yugoslavia, as forced by the authorities last year in Yugoslavia.
@GreatEurasia The same thing is understood in Slovenia by all nations, but there are always some who listen to propaganda from foreign sources, who convince them that they must resist Slovenia, otherwise they will betray their nation, although after 30 years the emotions have calmed down. Because they realized that they did not have such a strong army that they could rule. In the last 30 years, there have been more immigrants from the former Yugoslavia in Slovenia than before, mainly due to greater economic progress and more employment opportunities. Even Slovenia has enabled workers from the former Yugoslav republics to send workers directly from their countries to the Slovenian Employment Service to work as if they were in the EU. It even offers them free study with financial aid if they come to study in Slovenia. Slovenes do not see these immigrants as foreigners as if they were brothers, they do not even have to speak Slovene with Slovenes, but in their own language. Even if they do not understand Slovene, Slovenes speak Serbo-Croatian with them. Serbo-Croatian in Slovenia can be spoken by practically everyone, because they listen to music in this language and are used to talking to immigrants from an early age in their language. Young people all understand almost everything, only some do not know how to respond well in the Serbo-Croatian language, because people are different in speaking skills and some are not so much in contact with this language and find it harder to speak.
I was born in former Yugoslavia,we all had the Yugoslavian passports,regardless of the republic we were born or lived in, officially we all used to be Yugoslavs….Yugoslav Citizens/ citizen ship Personal ID cards or driving licences were not a prof or the citizen ship ,but there was no restrictions to drive trough the whole Yugoslavia
My husband was always listed as Slovenian (drzavljan Slovenije), born 1981, while his sister was listed as Yugoslav (drzavljan Jugoslovije), born 1979, parents could pick at birth the citizenship they want for their kids. It was to my knowledge never 100% Yugoslavian citizenship.
many did. But they came covertly back when the life in former Yougoslavia totaly colapsed because bacrupcy of the state and then civil war. 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
Please do a feature on how the Russian minority is treated in the Baltics after collapse of the USSR! In the Baltics, if there is any suspicion you might be a Russian, you are denied education, medicine, pension, applying for citizenship, protection from the law, a chance to learn the Baltic language, and you are forced to live in city sewers or WWII style ghettoes. Oh, the hardship. But no matter -- soon the mighty righteous Putler will free Ukrainians of their delusions of statehood by shooting everyone who might be a Nazi in the back of the head. Then Putler will be able to free the poor oppressed Russians from the ungrateful Baltic pseudodonations invented by Lenin. Yes, the treatment of Russians in Baltics has been absolutely atrocious. After Baltics regained independence they suddenly turned from loving Russians to hating them for some unfathomable reason. And that is even after the Baltics were saved from the evil of capitalism by the wonderful communist economy thus becoming more rich and prosperous than Russia. Russian regime even had to resort to re-educating any Baltic nationalists by throwing them out of the windows in order for Baltics not to harm themselves. Not to mention sending the poor starving Baltic children to Siberian holiday camps for fattening up. All at a great expense to Russians. Very ungrateful.
As usual, there are two sides of the story. There were a lot of people from other parts of Yugoslavia in Slovenia. Quite a lot of them didn't have their legal status settled. Some speculated with benifits, they lived and worked in Slovenia, but had their residence in other places for the benifits an taxes. I personally know a case of a married couple where a man had his residence in Slovenia and his wife had her residence somewhere else just to collect the benifits of separate life, but in real life they lived together. At the independence of Slovenia they calculated their options, they had the option for his wife to apply for citizenship in Slovenia, but they calculated, thinking that in the case something goes wrong here, we can move there. Subsequentially, he had Slovenian citizenship, his wife was ''erased''. Another case I know is a case of my friend. Her parents moved to Slovenia, worked there, had a family, lived as normal people do. But they registered the residence of their youngest daughter with their parents in the other part of Yugoslavia for benifits. She didn't even realize she didn't have residence in Slovenia. After independence there was a deadline to register residence which was a condition to get citizenship. She was young and oblivious and she didn't get her papers in order. Consequentially, her parents who moved to Slovenia got their citizenship automatically, their daughter, my friend, who was born in Slovenia, was ''errased''. It took her many years and effort to get her rightful citizenship. I don't condone our government for doing what they did, problem, for me, is how they resolved the problem. There were cases where ''errasing'' was justified, in some cases it was not. In most cases it was pure speculations and calculations (going wrong and blaming others), in some cases it was misunderstanding, or, sometimes, pure human errors. Each case should be processed individually.
In 1990, Slovenia wanted to reform Yugoslavia into a modern, democratic multiethnic state, but due to nationalism and mismanagement coming from the other republics, they had no other choice than announcing their independence.
Im slovenian but im ashamed that our goverment did this to these people. Noone deserves to be "erased" and so what if they did not get citizenship in time. Thats just evil.
Thank you. Slovenia is a wonderful country in so many ways. But this was certainly one of its darker chapters. It has been amazing to read comments from some people condemning those who didn’t apply in time. They forget that it was a very different time, before the internet. It was also a period when the region was descending into war. There were all sorts of reasons why people might not have applied in time. I give the Brexit example. Even with years of warning about the need to apply for settled status in Britain, hundreds of thousands still failed to meet the deadline. That didn’t mean that they all refused to accept Brexit. It meant that a lot of people aren’t aware of things for a variety of reasons, including illness and mental health issues.
Anyone who had a permanent residence in Slovenia at the time of the break-up of Yugoslavia was able to apply for citizenship. Citizenship in the former Yugoslavia was twofold: republican and Yugoslav. In 1991, no one set any conditions for acquiring citizenship other than residence. No other country has granted citizenship in such an easy way. Ignorance in acquiring rights such as citizenship does not excuse anyone. Everyone had the opportunity to learn that they only have to submit an application that will be automatically approved. Regardless of nationality, language, work status and other personal circumstances. The entire public was informed about this in all media: newspapers, TV, radio, all administrative and state bodies. In the 21st century, probably everyone can read, but if they don't, they can listen and ask… The European Court of Human Rights was never informedof the actual circumstances in Slovenia in 1991.
I can absolutely assure you that the ECHR was perfectly aware of the circumstances. In fact it’s bizarre to even otherwise. This is not some joke court. It is the highest such legal body in Europe, filled by leading legal minds. And do you serious think that the Slovenian Government wouldn’t have laid out the full details of its position?
@@JamesKerLindsay Unfortunately, the Slovenian government has focused exclusively on legal facts, not factual facts. The real facts were: the citizenship fee was less than 2 beers (unique in Europe) at the time of a formal application. Citizenship was granted to all those who applied for it above. The application had already been formally written, everyone just entered personal data in it and signed it (the second unique in Europe). If it was for those who immigrated to Slovenia for economic reasons - Slovenia was the first in the former Yugoslavia in economic terms and development and wages, etc. pride greater than simply signing the application for citizenship of the Republic of Slovenia, then even God could not help them then. I repeat: the only condition was permanent residence. Anyone in their right mind would just lick their fingers at such a grant of citizenship… Slovenska vlada se je na žalost skoncentrirala izključno na pravna dejstva, ne na dejanska dejstva. Dejanska dejstva so bila: pristojbina za državljanstvo je znašala ob formalni prošnji manj kot sta stala 2 piva (unikum v Evropi). Državljanstvo so dobili popolnoma vsi, ki so zanj vložili zgoraj navedeno vlogo. Vloga je bila že formalno napisana, vsak je vanjo samo vpisal osebne podatke in jo podpisal (drugi unikum v Evropi). Če je bil pri tistih, ki so se zaradi ekonomskih razlogov priselili v Slovenijo - Slovenija je bila v bivši Jugoslaviji prva v ekonomskem pogledu in razvitosti in plačah itd. ponos večji od enostavnega podpisa na vlogi za državljanstvo Republike Slovenije, potem jim tudi Bog takrat ni mogel pomagati. Ponavljam: edini pogoj je bil stalno bivališče. Vsak pri zdravi pameti bi si ob takem podeljevanju državljanstva samo obliznil prste…
it is lie! 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
To make it easier for you to imagine how things work: Slovenia's working ethics, organization, enviroment awareness, mentality, culture, economy, safety vs other ex Yugoslav republic is like we are from the another planets (like day and night). Slovenians are almost like Austrians, meanwhile others are way closer to orient in all possible ways. Or comparing high developed North Italy (Fiat, Ferrari, AC Milan, Juventus, Cortina d' Ampezzo, high fashion, San Remo, Milano) vs poor Sicily/Calabria in South Italy.
@@Just_another_Euro_dude Yes, i mean, Slovenia could have all of that if we also sold our asses off to China and Russian oligarchs/corrupt western billionaires and let them do whatever they want. 98% of what you've listed is foreign investment, (especially Montenegro from what i've heard is basically owned jointly by Russian oligarchs and China at this point) specifically because of the ''wild west'' status of those countries where if you have enough money anything goes. I have Bosnian friends and many friends from the Balkans in general, i've heard the stories of when they go for a visit. When they get stopped by the police and almost any infraction under the sun can be forgiven by offering the policemen 50€. And yes, we have a nice basketball team, but we also have world class skiers, hockey players and olympic athletes. And yes, i live 2km from the Italian border, i am part Italian and Austrian myself, i've been across most of Italy, and do you want to know why the south is more scenic TODAY (it wasn't in the past)? Because all the trash migrated from the south to the north and ruined the north. Milano is still a beautiful city, but it's ruined by the Maroccans for instance scamming you on every corner. The port of Monfalcone is basically little Bangladesh at this point. I'm old enough to have seen the old north Italy and i choose to remember it as it was, not the abomination it has become.
All 25,000 "erased" would be Slovenian citizens if they would applicated in time, simple as that. But they didn't, they calculated or refused it. Over the years when they've seen oustanding progress of Slovenia and other republics going down the to...t, they suddenly changed their mind.
Sorry, but that is not true for everyone. While some may have been lazy, or hedging their bets, many others could have been left out for other reasons, such as poor education, mental health issues, out of the country. The U.K. has had a settlement scheme in place fir several years and while millions applied it is still felt that several hundred thousand missed it. Let’s not forget many came to Slovenia with few qualifications. It would show a lot more compassion and decency to accept that this was a stain on Slovenia’s otherwise good reputation and move on. Denialism is always the trait of nationalists and actually does more harm to a country’s reputation than admitting it was a tragic error of judgement and that the country is sorry.
@@JamesKerLindsay There is no point of explaining to these people. Serbia should have never allow to Slovenia, nor to Croatia to be with us Serbs in a common state. I'd really to see what would have happened to those two if Serbia never accepted them in the past.
I agree. What’s so depressing is ten number of Slovenes (most probably not even born at the time) trying to defend it, even though the Slovenian Supreme Court and the ECHR ruled it was a violation of human rights.
this video is pointless they had a deadline and they missed it i can assure you that it wasn't about where they are from but more about if they support Slovene independence or if they prefer yugoslavia if that was the case there would not be as many people from the former republics in Slovenia today edit: just to be clear i don't support or agree with what they did to these people who failed to apply i think they should have been given another chance to get the citizenship
So, what is your point then? The deadline was extremely short. The U.K. gave EU citizens several years to apply for settled status and several hundred thousand still missed it. Slovenia gave them just a few months. And it isn’t just about laziness or support for Yugoslavia. Many were poorly educated. Others may have had mental health issues. Try to show some compassion.
Absolute rubbish. I know Slovenia well. I have been many times. But I make videos on international conflicts and independence issues. Slovenia is marking the 30th anniversary of its independence from Yugoslavia and so now was a good time to explore an important issue that arise from that time that few people know about, but was important and deserves attention. Get over the conspiracy theories that I have it in for Slovenia. I have better things to do with my time than wage individual vendettas against countries! :-) Again, stop deflecting.
@@JamesKerLindsay my point is you are making a problem out of a non problem to make slovenia look bad i feel saddened reading this comments of people saying they lost respect for slovenia and bullshit like that for a problem resolved in the courts already but i don't think you get my point of view so there is no point in an comment
In fairness to the majority. I worked for a very large corporation. We would go out of our way to provide the safest possible places to work in and yet there would always be people who would not want to follow a simple path of action or instruction either bc, they don’t care or their thoughts take them away from the importance of following an instruction and then blame everyone else for their lack of taking responsibility for their own actions. Also if you had previously committed crimes against the people of the state, then I would have thought that the state might not want to have you as a new citizen. Wouldn’t you think that would make sense in a peaceful society???
Very very informative indeed. It also shows how ruthless some "So called governments" can be, showing a total disregard for human suffering. Plus points for the EU court of justice for acting in the interests of these unfortunates.
99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
I think “Yugoslav” was just an umbrella term for all of the nations + ethnic minorities who have been living in that country. People were simply proud of that country but in reality, everyone was affiliating with their own national and even regional identity. For example, I live in Vojvodina and despite being Serbs, many of us here call ourselves Vojvodinians (or “Vojvođani” in serbian). And nationalist politicians have effectively destroyed Yugoslavia and I have to admit, I see it everyday how the main leaders such as Milošević, Tuđman, Izetbegović, Kučan are all despised in their countries and blamed for all the mess. And rightfully so. But that was the time of economic crisis, attempt of democratization of Yugoslavia which miserably failed, rise of nationalism, destructive wars and mafia with a large connection to the government. It was unsustainable.
Thanks Ivana. Great points. Identity is a complex thing. And it was especially so in Yugoslavia. Vojvodina is a truly fascinating region, for all sorts of reasons. I know it very well indeed and have spent a lot of time there. In fact, I am writing this comment from just outside of Novi Sad! :-)
@@JamesKerLindsay Heheh yeah, Vojvodina is very unique in its diverse population and culture. I live in Subotica and I am some 8-9 km away from the Hungarian border. I also have Hungarian and Slovak neighbors. One can only wish to have people like them to be there for you whenever you need something and vice versa of course. Have fun in NS
You tend to emphasize the "very large majority" part, even tho it was a very small minority of 1% who became erased. Which is irrelevant anyways, since the number of people shouldn't matter when rights are being taken away. But they were given a clear choice. It was either becoming a Slovene citizen or a liability - a potential excuse for the Yugoslav/Serbian army to claim our lands as their ethnic territories, like they did in Croatia and Bosnia, which resulted in a terrible war with genocides, and so on. So they had to erase them, but they could stay here. Also, ever since then, they have been given the option of becoming Slovene citizens again and again, but now they want money as reparations. You have to understand that nationalism, became a big issue in Yugoslavia in the 80s after Tito died, which is not an excuse but a perspective perhaps. Something had to be done. But I am curious, what is your proposed solution to this problem, if you have one? I am sorry, but I don't understand the bias here. They immigrated and didn't want to become citizens, they should be glad they could stay. Luckily I am not a politician, hard to decide on this, what is the right thing to do.
Fortunately, two very highly qualified panel of judges - the Slovenian Supreme Court and the European Court of Human Rights - looked into this and decided that Slovenia had behaved improperly. They also offered up solutions, but the government resisted for nationalist reasons. This really isn’t a difficult problem. Slovenia violated their human rights and needed to fix it. And the right thing to do is follow the law and the international commitments Slovenia made to uphold human rights.
"You tend to emphasize the "very large majority" part, even tho it was a very small minority of 1% who became erased." At 11:48 he says that the vast majority of Yugoslavians living in Slovenia did get citizenship so he is in no way saying it wasn't a small minority.
Imagine this was the worst thing to happen after Yugoslavia dissolved peacefully. Now it sounds horrible, but even this would be a heaven compared to what actually happened.
Did you say people were erased because they did not apply for citizenship even after given repeated opportunities? How can this be human rights abuse? Clearly these people did not agree with an independent Slovenia and identified as other than Slovenia.
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Rj2gQAyPA/mqdefault.jpg)
This was one of the lesser known issues surrounding the break up of Yugoslavia. However, it raises some important questions that often arise in cases of independence and secession: who should be allowed to become citizens? It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of Slovenes about this. Or those from elsewhere in the region? And are there any parallels elsewhere?
On another note, I have now opened up channel memberships. If you would like to help support the channel, please do consider joining. For a small monthly fee it can really help build and develop the channel. Thank you. ruclips.net/user/JamesKerLindsayjoin
It's quite similar to what happened to ethnic Russians in the Baltics. What I find disappointing is that the EU just ignires these cases. After all Slovenia and the Baltic states are all EU members. And the EU loves to harp on "values "
@@ems7623 About the EU it seems, to me that when they want to criticize a country ad nauseum for some human rights abuse or other it does so; and when it wants, to close its eyes it does so.
Hello, James, I am Slovenian and I have already written a comment, but I didn't notice that you are looking for the thoughts of Slovenians :) The general opinion is that many of the Yugoslavian people that lived here were "too proud" to apply for citizenship, despite having 6 months to contemplate. Many actually thought that the Yugoslavian armade will return and deal with the seperatists (vratičemo se/we will return). There were people that didn't knew and not all were counter independence, so I think the authority could have conducted an inquest back in the mid-late 90's and granted rights to people that didn't work counter independence or conduct criminal activity. My grandmother, for example, was born in present day Croatia and my family was aware of the legislation call. I think that the main victims of this misunderstanding were the innocent children that were deprived of education.
@@mouniash as with other states the EU has its own interests to consider. It is called pick your fights. It is not all powerful
@@thatisme3thatisme38 LGBT rights on Hungary and Poland is certainly worth the fight in their eyes
My father is from Bosnia. When Slovenia became independent he got slovenian citizenship without asking for it. The state of Slovenia obviously checked him good because after more than 40 years he got his real bearth date that was switched with someone else back. In ex YU nobody cared about that mistake. He also told me about people telling him they don't beleave in Slovenia as independent state like "Slovenia is small, it won't last..." and DIDN'T WANT Slovenian documents! After some time they changed their mind..... So this isn't black and white storry
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look you weren't ereased they gave them time to make a new identety if you didn't it was your own problom and(you said slovenia won't last)bosnia has two goverments that hate each other and would you rather live in a broken yugoslavia drowning in debt?
slovenia is small becouse of yougoslavia give away a loot of our land to other countrys
@@jozebutinar44 true
Exactly. Nothing is completely white or black. Obviously, your father had his papers in order, his residence legal, so he got citizenship as he should. If he accepted it, fine with me, if he didn't, it is his choice. Anyway, he was a part of our society, he was legal, for me he is welcome. but some people didn't have their status legal, some speculated too much, some were just too sloppy to get their status legal.. And it was quite an easy process. In effect, it was mostly their own fault.
Greetings and I hope you and your parents are doing well!
Im from Slovenia and i was partly erased! My mother was from Croatia and i didn"t even know that i was officially Croat, till the day i went to make a Slovenian passport. Then they told me that i was not Slovenian even when lived my whole life in Slovenia. It was such a absurd situation that i passed three times illegally the border between Italy and Slovenia by the forest, since i had only a Yugoslavian passport, which was very bad at the time and you could"not travel whit it around Europe. At the end i had a luck, because my sister is a judge and she resolve all situation..
Thanks. I’m really glad you managed to sort it out. It really was an absurd and tragic situation. I also find it rather disturbing that there are people who still try to defend a policy that has been judged to be contrary to basic human rights law by Slovenian courts and the European Court of Human Rights. There have been lots of comments on this video saying that it served people right, that they were traitors, etc. As you made clear, that just isn’t the case.
After 1991, the Slovenian state did not experience partial erasure. Citizenship in the former Yugoslavia was always dual: republican and Yugoslav, i.e. in Slovenia Slovenian and Yugoslav. Of course, the passport was Yugoslav, because the republics of the former Yugoslavia were not countries, but only federative units - the full name of Yugoslavia was SFRJ (Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia). you don't say when, in what period it happened - if it happened at all? I repeat once more: everyone who had a permanent residence in the Republic of Slovenia at the time of Slovenia's independence could apply for Slovenian citizenship (if, of course, they did not already have Republic of Slovenian citizenship). The application (fee) to obtain it cost less than two beers. No one discriminated against anyone, everyone in their right mind and capable of doing business (!) would of course do their best for something so simple. It is known that before the independence of Slovenia, immigrants - economic migrants from other republics of the former Yugoslavia - did not have Slovenian republican citizenship. Of course, they had the citizenship of the republic from which they came, for example. Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, etc. I emphasize that no one forced economic migrants from various parts of Yugoslavia to come to Slovenia, which really was another Switzerland for the other republics during Yugoslavia. Now I have enough teaching on this subject.
Slovenska država po letu 1991 ni poznala delnega izbrisa. Državljanstvo v bivši Jugoslaviji je bilo vedno dvojno: republiško in jugoslovansko, torej v Sloveniji slovensko in jugoslovansko. Seveda je bil potni list jugoslovanski, ker republike bivše Jugoslavije niso bile države, ampak samo federativne enote - poln naziv Jugoslavije je bil SFRJ (Socialistična federativna republika Jugoslavija), Ker delnega izbrisa ni moglo biti, izbris je bil lahko samo v celoti, poleg tega ne poveš, kdaj, v katerem obdobju se je to zgodilo - če se je sploh zgodilo? Ponavljam še enkrat: vsi, ki so imeli v času osamosvojitve Slovenije stalno bivališče v Republiki Sloveniji, so lahko zaprosili za slovensko državljanstvo (če seveda že niso imeli republiškega slovenskega državljanstva). Vloga (taksa) za pridobitev je stala manj kot dva piva. Nihče ni nikogar diskriminiral, vsak pri zdravi pameti in poslovno sposoben (!) bi se za nekaj tako enostavnega seveda potrudil. Ve se, da slovenskega republiškega državljanstva do osamosvojitve Slovenije niso imeli priseljenci - ekonomski migranti iz drugih republik bivše Jugoslavije. Imeli pa so seveda državljanstvo republike, iz katere so prišli npr. srbsko, hrvaško, bosansko itd. Poudarjam, da ekonomskih migrantov iz raznih krajev Jugoslavije nihče ni silil priti v Slovenijo, ki je res bila za časa Jugoslavije za ostale republike druga Švica. Zdaj imam na to temo dovolj poučevanja.
It's shameful that you didn't know what you were and that you didnt know difference between Slovenia and Croatia!!!!!!!!
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My father was from Lendava Slovenia. I've been wanting to visit there for awhile now and plan to do so in the near future.
The stories I was told about my grandfather's involvement in the war was nothing short of amazing and shocking.
Who are Yugoslavs ?
@@Q_QQ_Q that’s right, nationality Slovenian, citizenship Yugoslav.
@@Q_QQ_Q theyre the people who lived in Yugoslavia
I had 3 neighbors. 1st an ethnic Serb. Cool guy. He came back from administration unit joking that he bought citizenship for a sack of potato. 2nd also ethnic Serb. He was running up and down the street at the beginning of war while MIGs were flying overhead and scream from the top of his lungs that his people are coming and that they will all rape our mothers. He wussed out and got the citizenship too. After he burned his officer uniform. 3rd guy was an ethnic Slovene. Old dude. He and his brother were, as kids, deported to Serbia during WW2 by the Germans. Just for the sake of it they went to check, and sure enough because of that deportation they would almost have been erased as old documents pointed out they are serbs. They also got citizenship.
Do with this information whatever you want. IMO certain people just didn't want to admit that whatever Belgrade says is the law anymore and expected special treatment. And now they scream bloody murder. Unfortunately some innocent underage kids also got caught in the crossfire because of that.
Laz ! (LAY !!! )
@@ivantrajkovic2429 lay where
My dad's side of family was in the same boat, expelled to SR during war. They have a community (drustvo) now, they meet every now and then
@@naysayer8052 lol, imagine Slovenians or Croats aren't mixed.
@@naysayer8052 is that supposed to make them better? also, what mix are the italians and the germans?
Vsak, ki je imel ob razpadu Jugoslavije stalno bivališče v Sloveniji, je lahko zaprosil za državljanstvo. Državljanstva so bila v bivši Jugoslaviji dvojna: republiško in jugoslovansko. Nihče ni postavljal leta 1991 nobenih pogojev za pridobitev državljanstva, razen bivališča. Nobena druga država ni dajala državljanstva na tak lahek način. Neznanje ob pridobitvah pravic kot je državljanstvo ne opravičuje nikogar. Vsak je imel možnost seznaniti se s tem, da mora samo vložiti prošnjo, ki bo avtomatsko odobrena. Ne glede na narodnost, jezik, delovni status in ostale osebne okoliščine. Vsa javnost je bila glede tega obveščena v vseh medijih: časopisi, TV, radio, na vseh upravnih in državnih organih. V 21. stoletju zna verjetno vsak brati, če ne zna, pa zna poslušati in vprašati… Evropsko sodišče za človekove pravice nikoli ni bilo seznanjeno z dejanskimi okoliščinami v Sloveniji leta 1991.
kot vidim so komunistični slovenci že spremenili dejstva in razloge. Vsekakor se strinjam s teboj. Na bruhanje mi gre, ko sedaj sprevačajo, še bolj pa ko tujci sodijo in komentirajo, ko pojma nimajo kaj in kako.
In tocno tako je bilo.
Vsak ki je zelel pridobiti drzavljansto je to lahko naredil. Moj Stric po rodu Srb, rojen v Beogradu je nemudoma zaprosil za drzavljanstvo in ga tudi brez kakrsnega koli problema pridobil.... ne poznam vseh primerov, vendar, ce si je clovek zelel drzavljanstva, ga je tudi brez problema dobil... seveda, ce je imel stalno prebivalisce v sloveniji.
tako da prosim lepo....
Oprostite, ampak v primeru moje družine ni bilo ravno tako. Moj oče je dal vlogo za mojo takrat 5-letno sestro na uradni organ. Gospa, ki je opravljala delo na okencu takrat, je vlogo prikrila brez naše vednosti. Moja starša sta izvedela, da ima neustrezne dokumente, saj sta se odpravila na obisk v Srbijo preko meje z Madžarsko, saj je bila na Hrvaškem vojna. Temu je sledil ponoven obisk uradnega organa in konkretna pritožba. Moja sestra je po tem pridobila ustrezne dokumente in državljanstvo, ampak je dogodek razkril vzdušje takratnega časa.
Totalna neresnica, draga Jane. Kot prvo, zakon je selektivno pozival na obnovo statusa le tujce iz YU. Kar je bil seveda najvecji razlog za padec na Ustavnem sodicu. NE mores napisati zakon ki za nekoga velja tako, za nekoga drugega pa drugace. Kot drugo, ce ze obvescas nekoga o cemerkoli, to ne mores delati preko medijev, ampak preko osebnega vrocila.
@@53silver bogi, bogi.
Slovenia is been taking care for ex Yugoslavian republics financially, donations, employing, accepting refugees and 100 thousands of migrants in the last 70 years, working visas for EU or any other way. Enough is enough. Balkan and other thirds world countries should get a grip and finally start taking care of themselves. Stop always relying on someone third to take care of you and your problems. Slovenia (less than 2 million people) produced almost 40% of economic power in Yugoslavia (23 million people) and all this money went to Belgrade (capitol). I hope you got a full picture now.
Rubbish. When Yugoslavia was established Slovenia was a poor Austrian backwater. It thrived in Yugoslavia because it had access to cheap labour and cheap resources. Any economist will tell you that most developed parts of any country benefit more than the poor despite the financial transfer from rich to poor.
@@alexmood6407 You have to go to school again. Your history knowlidge is so poor...
@@bojanstare8667 really? If you would know me you would know how wrong you are.
@@alexmood6407 OK, enlighte me, please. Maybe Idon`t have all the information.
@@bojanstare8667 Maybe you don't, apparently. Would you please cite your sources? Any serious work on economic history that supports your position?
I was around nine years old when this was happening. Even at that age i knew that some people now callled the "erased" did not want slovenian passport. They were counting on yugoslavian army to win. They lost and then they start playing the role of victims. The passports were ridiculously cheap to get. Anyone who wanted it was able to afford one!
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As a Slovenian: this is a complex topic. A lot of people got unjustly erased. But a lot of people also hedged against Slovenia and bet that Yugoslavia would win, and in some cases they actually went to fight in Croatia and Bosnia for the Serbs, before realizing it was a losing war and returning to Slovenia, expecting this country would welcome them back with open arms after they helped commit atrocities of war.
Those unjustly erased should be reimbursed. Those who hedged their bets against Slovenia should be disregarded.
Slovenian people have very strong feelings about Slovenian nationality because Slovenia was always invaded by all sorts of people because Slovenia is like an intersection of Europe, the armies moved and occupied Slovenia constantly.
This can be said about most balkan countries
slovenia was mostely under german rule and heavily influenced by german culture mixed with south slavic.... for about 1000 years ...
Baltic people are with you!
Quick chat-gpt summary:
Celts: The Celts were among the early inhabitants of the region.
Romans: The Roman Empire incorporated the territory of present-day Slovenia, and it was part of the Roman province of Pannonia.
Huns and Germanic Tribes: After the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the area experienced invasions by the Huns and various Germanic tribes.
Slavic Tribes: In the 6th and 7th centuries, Slavic tribes, including the Slovenes, settled in the region.
Carantania: In the 7th century, the Slavic principality of Carantania emerged in the territory of present-day Slovenia.
Bavarians and Franks: The region came under the influence of the Bavarians and later the Franks.
Holy Roman Empire: The Holy Roman Empire exerted control over parts of the territory during the medieval period.
Habsburg Monarchy: The Habsburgs gained control over the territory in the late Middle Ages and continued to rule over it for several centuries.
Napoleonic France: During the Napoleonic Wars, the territory was briefly under the control of Napoleonic France.
Austrian Empire: After the Congress of Vienna in 1815, the region became part of the Austrian Empire.
Austro-Hungarian Empire: In 1867, the Austrian Empire transformed into the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Slovenia was part of this dual monarchy.
Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes: After World War I, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes was formed in 1918, which later became the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
Axis Occupation (World War II): During World War II, the territory was occupied by Axis powers, including Germany and Italy.
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia: After World War II, Slovenia became one of the six socialist republics within the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
Independence: Slovenia declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1991, leading to a brief ten-day war before international recognition of its independence.
European Union and NATO: Slovenia joined the European Union and NATO in 2004.
Milosevic: We don't care about Slovenia independence. They have very few Serbs for me to care about.
Slovenia: Few Serbs? Yes, yes, we'll get on that.
Very true
Milosevic wanted to show the other republics how strong his army was, but he did not expect such strong resistance. He lived in Serbian propaganda that Serbs were above all others and underestimated the determination of other nations for a better life. At that time, he wanted to persuade Kučan not to arm himself and wait, just so that he would have time to prepare for the fall and the replacement of the newly elected government in the first democratic elections in Slovenia. However, in Slovenia Kučan had practically no influence on the events, he even disarmed the republic's territorial defense where the Slovenes were, so that the new army would not get weapons from them. Reason and experience with nationalists from the Balkans prevailed in the Slovenian government, and they did not fall prey to such manipulations.
@Franjo Grandovec Thank you for your kind words.
This is such a misleading post. In 1992, in the middle of Yugoslav war (mess), so called "erased" (Serbs, Bosnians who lived in Slovenia) were simply hesitant, didn't want to accept (refused) new Slovenian passport, or were too proud of their roots from their native republics. They were sorry later due to the lousy outcome of war and bad economy, which still didn't recover. Slovenia is and always was by far the most organized, cleanest, safest and richest of all former Yugoslav republic.
any reply by him coming?
No. I have replied to this numerous times in other comments.
Mein kampf inspired?
The republics in Yugoslavia had their republican citizenship and permanent residence if you went to live in another republic. It is necessary to know the interwar nationalist propaganda against Slovenes in order to understand this problem. People who had permanent residence in Slovenia and did not deregister it when they had already moved to the west or to other republics during the Yugoslav era were erased. There were also a few who came back to live later or lived permanently in Slovenia, but these were mostly Slovenes by nationality. In those conditions when Slovenes were still learning to manage the country, they thought that people would register themselves within 6 months, so that they would even know who still lives in the country and who does not. However, it must also be said that these erased people were able to return to Slovenia at any time and regain their permanent residence, which was not possible in other Yugoslav republics, only if you were of the majority nationality. There were also such cases, for example, an Albanian who lived illegally in Germany and the Germans wanted to extradite him to Serbia because he had Serbian republican citizenship, which is more than just a permanent residence that expires in six months if you do not live in the country, but it was rejected by the Serbs. Only Slovenes wanted to take this Albanian because he once lived in Slovenia for some time during Yugoslavia and had a permanent residence which he did not deregister. It is not a problem for the erased to get their permanent residence back in Slovenia, but now that they see how fair and orderly Slovenia is, they want to have Slovenian citizenship under the same conditions as they were offered in 1991. They do not sue because they do not get the status they had in Yugoslavia, but because they would like citizenship and compensation for the time when they were not in Slovenia and were erased from their permanent residence. Due to propaganda, because no one in Slovenia stopped it and did not pay attention to how foreign nationalist forces would try to portray Slovenian independence as a criminal act, the lie became the truth. The Slovenes needed not only to learn how to run the country, but also to teach the nation that in reality other nations are much more nationalistic and wish them ill and do not have the same idea of the world. It is necessary to know the history, how foreigners ruled the Slovenes for a thousand years. They ruled the Slovenes by denationalizing them and confusing them by inciting one Slovene against another, and so a strong unified affiliation never developed. And they were also taught how incompetent they were that if it weren’t for their masters, others would destroy them. It is also important to know that other nations considered themselves more and looked down on the Slovenes because of their nationalist propaganda, so that at the beginning it was beneath their honor to cooperate and accept the new state. Due to the confusion about belonging to either communism or Yugoslavia or pan Slavism or the newly created state, politicians quickly began to take advantage of this without conscience and thus deepen the rift between Slovenes, so that Slovenes have no idea how others treat them, because they quarrel with each other and have their own themes. In Slovenia, there is almost a civil war between the old communist elite, which took over the country practically after independence again, because the newly formed parties did not get acquainted with politics and did not remove the former elite from the main positions and media. The Slovenes in Yugoslavia were the most enslaved nation in the world, because no other nation had to give so much for other nations. If we had not left Yugoslavia, given Slovenia's economic backwardness due to the withdrawal of its funds, Slovenia would be less developed today than Bosnia. In terms of purchasing power, it was already captured by Serbia in the 1990s. In Slovenia, immigrants received all the best apartments, but Slovenes sometimes had to wait for years to get their turn. And many did not pay the bills because they saw Slovenia as their prey and no one could do anything to them. Also because during the Yugoslav era, due to high inflation, the Serbs gave their Serb people stamps to sell to Slovenes at high prices, and a hundred other things could be said about it, so in the end independence was the only option if they did not want to go bankrupt or however, to emigrate from Yugoslavia, as forced by the authorities last year in Yugoslavia.
@@kosarkosar7683 There would have been no Slovenia or Slovenians whatsoever if there they had not been liberated by Serbs in 1918 and 1945. Do not forget how many Serbs died for Trieste and were willing to go in war against UK and USA during Trieste crisis 1945-1954.
Serbs could have taken Romanian banat with then predominant Serbian Arad and Timisoara in 1919 and instead gave it in return for Bled and Bohinj which should have been Italain and Austrian. What about crippled Serbia in 1941 receiving Slovenians exprelled by Nazis? Where was Milan Kucan born?
I don't understand what is the problem here to be honest and I'm not certain that you have all the information. The Slovenian authority passed legislation calling to all Yugoslavian citizens living in Slovenia to apply for citizenship as you have said in the video. That means that they had about 6 months and many didn't want to gain citizenship because a) they thought that the Yugoslavian Armade will return to Slovenia and ''deal'' with the seperatists b) They didn't want to have papers of a country that a bird crosses in one swing. + I don't see any reason to give citizenship to soldiers that fought against independence - it makes no sense :)
You are obviously convinced that you know more about legal matters than the Slovenian Constitutional Court and the European Court of Human Rights combined. Congrats on your self-confidence.
@@boruttrost5750 Don't go ad hominem on me, Borute...just explain me the problem :) I have said that I don't understand...
@@janp7927 Oh, sorry. I just assumed you would have an idea of what the problem was after watching this video. You can also read the rulings by the Slovenian Constitutional Court and by the European Court of Human Rights if you want to understand the issue.
I love the vocative case :)
@@boruttrost5750 So... european convention on human rights... violation of: (8) Right to respect for private and family life, (13) Right to an effective remedy, (14) Prohibition of discrimination... It seems that these violations are more less or a result of not having a citizenship, not about not having an option to apply or lack of infos... Wasn't there an option to gain citizenship of their native countries? The erased innocent children of those people are a sad story indeed. Ps. I have enough of this topic, have a nice Sunday.
@@janp7927 Sorry, you can't ask me a question and then say you've had enough of this topic before I can answer ;)
In case you want to return to this topic sometime in the future:
"It seems that these violations are more less or a result of not having a citizenship" - Slovenia didn't have the right to violate those people's rights in any way it pleased, just because they didn't have/didn't want to get Slovenian citizenship. Even though they didn't have citizenship, they still had some rights in Slovenia, according to Slovenian and international law. That's the gist of the whole issue and of the courts' rulings. Do you understand that?
"Wasn't there an option to gain citizenship of their native countries?" - That doesn't matter from a legal point of view.
This is a video made from one perspective, the perspective that won in the courts. I'm part of a younger generation of Slovenes and so I am not entirely familiar with the matter, however it is undeniable that some people flat out refused to comply to Slovenian law and gov't which encouraged them to set their status in order, either a foreigner or a citizen. This was done because some were against an independent Slovenia and believed it will soon be reintegrated into Yugoslavia. I am sure it wasn't done correctly though and that human rights were violated for some people in some way. But I am sick of hearing the erased and their sympathisers talk about them being nothing but victims with dumb excuses (didn't know it mattered or that it was neccessary lol) and them saying Slovenian government was evil. Many foreigners integrated just fine and got the citizenship or remained citizens of other states and continued to work here, while a few haven't. Think about that and try to explain why a small portion of those people would be discriminated against purposefully.
That last question is for your government to answer, not anyone else. Whether or not human rights were violated has been established in court, those courts being both Slovenian and the ECHR. What you wrote is literal victim shaming, and it's both laughable and despicable.
@@HalfLifeHalfDead Just because a court ruled something, it doesn't make it true. It's just what the court thinks is true based on the evidence and arguments presented - see OJ Simpson trial.
It's not shaming anyone. If you disregard the law and due process and not act while you have the capacity to do so, that is your decision. Not victim.
All that was said is that there are actual victims in this case, and entitled rebels, whose play didn't work out.
Also, as far as I'm aware ethnicity and place of birth weren't a factor for being erased. Lots of it was technical fck ups on the side of the government. Which is 100% believable living here.
And the main human rights violation wasn't really that people were 'erased', but that it's a fucking disgrace at how long the governments needed to even start addressing it and finding a sollution.
Which in Slovenia, again, isn't necessarily discrimination at any specific group of people; seeing how the same is true for ANY necessary public infrastructure project, or reform.
It's not active discrimination, like the British occupying N Ireland; but more likely people not caring to do their jobs.
Again, living in Slovenia this shit is obvious. And smug outside comments amount to about ... all 😉
Please check the regions of Carinthia and Friuli-Venezia-Giulia for better references on human rights violations and tell me why I never, not once hear about them in the west. Then you can maybe start discussing victim blaming with Slovenes. Untill then, keep your ignorance in your own sandbox, and don't pollute actual conversations.
well the referendum passed 94% so not only were the Slovenian government evil so were 94% of the entire population, but massive massive respect to those 6%, its not easy to take a stand for human right when everyone around you isn't
@@HalfLifeHalfDead i guess government says they didnt discriminate and i see no explanation how they did? Do you?
Wow I have never heard this story. Really interesting case. Thanks for the video!
All this is 99,99% flat lie!
Perhaps a video on Finlandization? Or a video on the unusual form of the Lebanese government, how it internally Balkanized, and the effects of that system?
Thanks so much. Brilliant suggestions. I would love to do a video on Lebanon. I went many years ago, just after the civil war. It was absolutely fascinating. (I also had many Lebanese friends while living in Cyprus. So I got a lot of stories from them.)
Greetings from Slovenia ❤
The declarations of independence of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo came as a result of the nationalist and repressive policies of Milosevic, who wanted to create a greater Serbia. When these three republics declared independence, Milosevic started wars.. Why ? For one reason only, Why do they declare independence ? Which is a right of every nation.
For my opinion, Serbia is the shame of Balkans.
So this is Serbia's fault again ? This is an internel issue in Slovenia that's it.
I think we need to be very careful in how we analyse the break up of Yugoslavia. As I said, it is complex and highly contested. Yes, Milošević played a major role. Indeed, the central role. But was he the instigator of nationalism elsewhere or was he the product of nationalist forces already in play in Yugoslavia? In other words, was his nationalist Greater Serbia project the cause of Yugoslavia’s breakup or the consequence of an inevitable path to dissolution the Federation was already taking? This is not to defend his policies. The outcome of his policies led to huge suffering. I often point out that Serbia has him to thank for the terrible reputational problems it faces today. But I also think it’s important not to see forces leading to the breakup of Yugoslavia as merely the fault of ‘the Serbs’ and the Serbs alone. It is far more complex than that.
True story, the Coronavirus crisis, global warming, and the flat tyre on my bicycle today, all of these were also aS a rEsUlT oF tHe nAtiOnaLiSt pOliCiEs oF MiLoŠevIć.
@@JamesKerLindsay In every Republic that declared independence, Milosevic sent troops there and started the war. The result was catastrophic. 20,000 killed in Croatia, 100,000 killed in Bosnia and 13,500 killed in Kosovo. Milosevic started three wars and lost all three ashamed. Why ? Because justice always wins, the right to be independent and sovereign. We have paid dearly for this independence and freedom that we enjoy today, with our blood. Now, let's take a look at Serbia, where the role of the victim is played or in fact they are the aggressor. They do not admit that there was genocide in Srebrenica. They are pathetic. We in the Balkans know them very well, Mr.James.
@@albanalshiqi2378 Again, it is important not to confuse the way the wars evolved with the causes of the break up of Yugoslavia. It is important to separate out the two. They are rather different discussions. I am happy to point to the disastrous policies of Milošević. But it is wrong to delay that he single handedly caused the break up of Yugoslavia. The roots of the conflict lie a lot deeper than that. I know people in Kosovo have strong views on this, and for good reason. But I am an academic. I have to base my analysis on evidence. And I know very well that the causes of events need to be separated from the consequences of those events. Applying a backwards analysis is not good scholarship.
Thanks for highlighting this. Slovenia is a country that outwards seems like a very clean, fair and tolerant place - in reality we have so many skeletons stuffed in our closets it's impressive the doors are still holding.
And impressed about your patience in dealing with all the Slovenia did nothing wrong apologists.
Thanks so much. It has been really interesting to see all the nationalist responses. I actually know Slovenia very well and have a lot of affection of it. (Ljubljana is lovely and Lake Bohinj is one of the most beautiful places in the world - even more than Bled to my mind!) This video wasn't made to try to insult Slovenia, but to highlight a very real issue of human rights that occurred. It is just amazing that people still deny that the country did anything wrong, even though the Slovenian Supreme Court and the ECHR ruled against the government.
@@JamesKerLindsay Yes exactly, but I feel a lot of Slovenians have a mentality that we as a country did nothing wrong, and in fact we were the only party ever wronged because we are the small underdog fighting for our independence from big empires.
The region im from, Štajerska (Lower Styria) used be very German, with Germans being the majority population in Maribor before WWI. Obviously this was partly due to colonialistic tendencies of Austria and the unequal distribution of power and wealth among the ethnicities of the Austrian and later Austro-Hungarian empire. But the reality was that these were regular people, regular Austrians and Germans, who ended up being expelled en masse, forced to leave their homes through aggressive actions by Slovenia/SHS in the immediate post-war period and collapse of Austria-Hungary. After WWII many even executed in large numbers in Villach as traitors or collaborators. All of this ended resulted in Štajerska being completely cleansed of Germans after WWII - yet we barely at all talk about this, if you bring up that this was in fact ethnic cleansing they will act shocked, and General Maister who was the leader of a military coup in Štajerska will be presented as a flawless national hero, even though he for example ordered his troops to fire on protesting Germans after the take over of Štajerska from Austria.
But I feel Slovenians have a hard to integrating these facts into our "narrative", since we want to portray ourselves so much as the "good underdog" fighting against oppression (from Austria, from Nazi Germany, from Yugoslavia, from Italy etc.), that it's impossible to accept that reality is gray and no state/ethnicity is pure. We did horrible things to regular people living in Slovenia who we consider "others" in order to achieve our goals, and brushed it under the carpet in the grander narrative of fighting against the evil empires that surrounded us.
And I don't think this is insulting, it's reality. But the problem is that nations are not based on reality, they're based on myths and legends and narratives. And trying to point out how reality often clashes with they myths, legends, and narratives is quite dangerous, especially when reality is a lot darker and more complex than what we are fed growing up.
@Franjo Grandovec Good job proving exactly my point.
Thanks. But it really hasn’t brought many Slovene haters here. Frankly, I don’t think I’ve ever really met any. Apart from the Erased, most people in the former Yugoslavia actually tend to have a positive view of Slovenia. (And hardly anyone even knows about the Erased. I do as I knew one of them.) The far bigger problem, as has been shown here, is that Slovenia had its own brand of nationalism that most people are unaware about. I know Slovenia well. I’ve been many times and I am very fond of it. But I have been surprised and appalled at the terrible comments from Slovenian nationalists. This has been the real revelation. And if I was Slovenian I’d be far more upset about how their comments paint the country than the relatively few comments from others who might say bad things about Slovenia.
@Franjo Grandovec Oh, I see. It didn’t take much for the veneer of moderation to fall away. That was a nasty little rant. I don’t know why I wasted my time trying to engage politely. As it happens, I’ve made lots of videos about U.K. wrongdoing. If you had actually dated to watch the channel. Likewise, you would have seen that I also made a video about Operation Storm.
What's most impressive about you is that you respond to nationalists from all sides in the comment section of many of your videos, if I was in your place I would be extremely frustrated by reading and replying to these "this is xyz propaganda" people
Your patience is truly admirable
Greetings from India
Indeed that is impressive.
If he does a video about any of the numerous issues in India though ... I already see in my minds eye the comment section.
It is often near impossible to unravel the whole truth with all sides pushing true or untrue information that suits their current interests. It is so not only for ordinary folk but even for professional analysts that actively evaluate their sources and biases.
All i gotta say: there was propaganda against Slovenija. Not that stuff like that isnt bad but last couple of years im starting to feel like everyone is against Slovenija.
I don’t think people are against Slovenia. I’m certainly not. I’ve been many times and I love the country. But these sorts of issues do need to be raised. As you can see in the comments, many Slovenes deny it happened. Many argue that it was absolutely acceptable. My view is that it is still an aspect of the breakup of Yugoslavia. It may not be seen as serious as events elsewhere. However it still deserves to be looked at and explained.
There are still people who want to put that whole rotten mess back together.
This is a very good creator and makes very good videos
The situation in ethiopia is worst than what had broken down Yugoslavia in to many countries. abiy ahmed is breaking down ethiopia in to pieces .
I had no idea. Thank you for this video.
Thanks. Yes, it’s a little known story. But a very important one in terms of how the breakup of countries can have a profound effect on people’s lives.
I am a Slovenian so inherently biased. There are several things where I quite disagree with your asssesment of the problem, even though I fully agree the "erasing" was quite poorly handled, with some real hardship to the people involved. You however do raise a very good question: How should a split of a country be handled? After thinking for some time about it, I see it is not an easy question, so I will focus on this.
So here is my (biased) view: there was one country and each citizen had both the citizenship of one of its 6 federated republics and the combined one. This country separated. The combined citizenship no longer exists. So how do you handle the citizenship of people, who are permanently leaving in one republic but have the citizenship of another?
I basically see only two options:
- a) you make all the citizens of a no longer existing country that were at the time of the split permanently leaving in one federal republic - its citizens. This option does have some problems. First is it really ok to push a citizenship on someone? Some did not want it. Most countries in the world frown on dual citizenship, do you force them to revoke their existing citizenship of another republic?
- b) offer them a choice. This seems a better option.
This "choice" option is what it was effectivley done. However, by the tone of the video and some coments it should be viewed borderline ethnic clensing... (I have an issue with this part. Especially since I know some personal stories from the other republics which make it all that harder to swallow). So if this option is chosen, how long should the people in question have a choice? Three months? A year? Ten years? Permanently? Basically due to the fact the country ceased to exist they are in a judicial limbo. Do you allow them to vote while still not making the choice?
So my question is, what would be a good way to handle citizenship? The first option? How do you handle dual citizenships? I am always proponent of choice, so I prefer the second option. In my mind if the window to choose was longer, at least so long that people had a chance to realize citizenship is important, it would be a good solution no? But until they do not chose it you have to consider them non-citizens. And for some who actively refuesed the new citizenship, emotionally clinging to the no longer existing one, what to do with them?
Now a disclaimer.I really dont know of anything better to do regarding citizenship. It is however quite likely I am missing a better way and would trully be interested in learning it.
All in all, I am sure a citizenship has to be handled in some way, event though I am not sure what that way is.
Thanks. The issue here wasn’t the decision over granting citizenship. Slovenia was actually rather progressive. It was the way that it was done. It may have sounded like a lot of time was given to people, but it wasn’t. There was a lot going on. To put it in perspective, the U.K. have EU citizens years to apply to stay. And yet after the deadline hundreds of thousands still hadn’t done so.
Why is forcing a problem? Every country forces citizenship to newborn. I see no problem with it being forced on adults. For example, Argentina will never let you go. So you force Slovenian citizenship to all. If they don't like it, not our problem.
Slovenia could have handled the situation better but I can't blame the Slovenians for not wanting to erase themselves like the Germans, French and English are.
They were wiped out because they refused to accept Slovenian citizenship and thus did not recognize Slovenian independence!
Thus is not true. Some did not accept it. But many others were understood to have been illegally deprived of it.
.
Even if they didn't recognise independence 30 days to comply or lose your statehood is not how citizenship works.
@@JamesKerLindsay how can you claim such a thing without providing reliable documents on which you based your opinion
@@JamesKerLindsay sadly your comment is not what happened. they refused citizenship because they thought the independce wouldnt last..after some time they got it and they still live in slovenia..refusing to learn language and thinking they still live in 1980 yugoslavia.
They didn't recognize the country, didnt want to be a part of it. That is what happens when you dont accept what you can be given
One video I would love to see is on New Zealand’s colonial past in the Pacific. Perhaps the terrible handling of the UN administration of Sāmoa? It’s something the New Zealand population needs to learn more about.
Hi Selwyn, thanks so much. Great suggestion! I really do want to return to this. I’ve been meaning to do a video for ages on how NZ and the US treat the concept of free association very differently.
New Zealand did nothing wrong
@@hybridforcesofthegdl3313 You are probably unaware of Ponsonby dawn raids. NZ govt has since apologised for those but NZ still treats the PIs as a colony. Fruit pickers are still exploited and given no rights.
Knowing N.Z. I am sure they do know.
@@nickiseb8910 you would be surprised, I would say the general history with Māori is on the radar but not our colonial Pacific history
Thank you professor, this was a very interesting video about a topic I've not heard of before.
Thank you very much!
dont worry, this video is onesided story...
What do you mean one-sided?
and mostly lie! He has no clue!
Absolutely fascinating video mate, thank you for posting. Ethnicity and politics seem to be the catalyst for most wars in Europe, it's sadness really.
Cheers. This was a really little known aspect of the break up of Yugoslavia. I had wanted to do it for ages as I knew one of the erased. Very sad stories.
.
@@JamesKerLindsay You would like to be smart to Slovenians, what is appropriate and what is not? You would like to preach about human rights, you who throughout history stole, killed, smashed, and appropriated foreign lands and people ? We Slovenians are the Angels compared to you!
As someone from Slovenia, i know people who lived during that time and also confronted them about the issue. The government was constatly even after december 26th 1991 urged people to get the citzenship and warned those who didn't of the consequeces. Although there were some unfortunate people, many simply refused to get citzenship due to their political views. But i will admit that the country has gone through a lot of bad governments through its short history, which might be one of the reasons, why not everything that could be was done for those individuals.
94% of Slovenian people thought it’s right to take away residency from some people and leave them without any rights because you didn’t like their political views. That’s all one needs to know about your country.
@@alexmood6407 the political view in question was if the person recognized Slovenia as independent. Some people were so pro-yugoslavian, that they refused to get a Slovenian citzenship or go to another yugoslav republic abd get renewed yugoslav citzenship there.
@@fexmarkanm9895 yes you are correct. This does not give you the right to take away their rights.
@@alexmood6407 these peoples were all Serbians or eater Bosnians or Croats ....etc
@Franjo Grandovec so to summarise, you’re saying: Sorry Not Sorry.
This happened all across countries in former Yugoslavia. My brother was one of "erased" in Croatia.
Our Full support to our Slovenian brothers and our sweet Slovenian sisters , so - called Yugoslavs (Ivan - Lovers ) can move to Siberian Jungles . with Love from Belarus !
Hvala.
We're currently on a roadtrip around Slovenia, Thank-you so much for enriching our understanding of this beautiful but flawed country (in that way no different to any other).
Thanks. Slovenia is truly lovely. I have been many times (Don’t miss Lake Bohinj. It is stunning!) But it does have this dark chapter in its history. Enjoy the rest of the trip!
One idea is to make a video on country identity region identity and city identity and explaining what factors influence that
Great suggestion! I’ve actually meant to do a video on London independence at some point. I did an interview on this a number of years ago and always thought it would make a good video. Something a little bit different. :-)
@@JamesKerLindsayI was thinking you got a familiar voice was you on times radio?
The so called "errased", are Yugo-nostalgics - citizens of former Yugoslav republics that were openly agains independent Slovenia. Each one of them was offered a Slovenian citizenship which they refused to take. This video is a disgrace and far from truth. Secondly Slovenia has payed all of them and fulfilled EU court verdict - case closed. Insinuations that Slovenia has issues with human rights are simply wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if this was exported by slovenian leftist parties, just to harm current government.
- "Yugo-nostalgics - citizens of former Yugoslav republics that were openly agains independent Slovenia" - How is this relevant? We had a referendum on independence, one could vote for or against. Do you also think that the 5 % of the voters who voted against should be purged. I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
- "Secondly Slovenia has payed all of them and fulfilled EU court verdict - case closed." - Slovenia only acted after a quarter of a century, after disregarding several court rulings on the matter. If that's an acievement for you, you obviously have very low standards regarding the rule of law.
@@boruttrost5750 you heeard right. Case closed. It satisfied EU judges. That's law. Face it.
@@GregorKramar We'll see about that, I guess.
he is scared to reply to you Gregor
@@GregorKramar Yup. They were given the chance to go get their citizenship. They didn't. What do these foreigners expect? Was our government supposed to go after them and beg them to get our citizenship? They gave them a deadline which they failed to take advantage of. Simple as. I'm an ethnic Slovene, paying ridiculous taxes, so these people can sue us in the EU court and then my taxes are used to give these people 5k€ per head? Because of their own negligence and stupidity? I've never recieved a fucking cent from my country, you have to be Bosnian/Albanian to qualify.
I know a guy that was erased. Let me cite what he said when Slovenia becomed independant:" Haha we (Serbs) will fuck you up so bad that nobody will ever think about independant Slovenia ever again." He didn't apply for citizenship.
Thanks. There were some like that. No one denies it. But there were many who weren’t. A war was starting. People may have been out if the country. (And there was no online anything in those days.) Others may have been elderly, ill or had mental health issues. That’s the point. It was a deeply unjust policy. And I’ve always found it troubling when people support a policy that punishes the innocent to get back at the guilty!
@@JamesKerLindsay I never suported it. In fact I protested about it back when I was in highschool. Not as mutch because of the people that got erased. But because the whole thing just took too long and nothing was done about it. Deport them, give them citizenship...whatever just get it over with. Everyone knew it would hurt our country in the long run.
Yes. It was a very shortsighted policy of the government. Populism and regard for human rights don’t often mix well. A surprisingly number of people are happy to ditch human rights - until it affects them!
Yes and then when Serbia was falling apart military and economically he came back to Slovenia and clamed to be erased to get slovenian pension which is few times bigger then serbian!
The great majority of cases of erased were similar to that.
No true...those ppl who were erased were the ones who didnt apply for citizenship in time that were given to them. Then they cryed.
This isn't the case. Certainly, there were those who didn't apply because they were lazy or just didn't think it would have an effect. But there were many who failed to meet the deadline for other reasons. They may have been out of the country - and there was not online application system at the time. They may have had health problems, including mental health issues. Many were also poorly educated. It was an exceedingly tight deadline. For comparison, the UK has introduced a system for EU citizens to stay. This was open for several years and by the deadline it is still believed that several hundred thousand failed to apply in time. I think it is important not to buy into the story that they were all traitors or arrogant. Some were. Many others weren't. They were ordinary people who fell through the cracks for a variety of reasons.
@@JamesKerLindsay sorry you can't compare countries. You are not Slovenian or from any Balkan state and you judge the culture or costumes from point of your culture. If I judge actions of your country through my ways would be funny. You can not expect from country that just got independence to act fair and square. UK as so called democratic country does it act always accordingly. No state or country behave or act always fairly but in their own interest. Of course Slovenia didn't want to give those ppl citizenship lightly and ppl supported this and still mostly do. Look at raises problem in UK and violence... disaster. You make a video of Slovenian injustice to some minority...look at your own garbage in your country. Look into discrimination Austrians make towards us ....grow up.
@@AlexanderNovak0 I tried to be reasonable. But clearly it’s no use. Instead, you offer up the standard response of nationalists and bigots the world over. Tell someone they’re an ignorant foreigner and to mind their own business. How dare an outsider question what a country does to its own minorities!? Fortunately, the European Court of Human Rights looked into this and found Slovenia was at fault. I’ll settle on its findings.
@@JamesKerLindsay No matter what that didn't change much...
I never knew about this. Thanks prof.
Thanks. Yes, it is a story that isn't perhaps as widely known as would would expect.
99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
I want to hear from the older Slovenian people, what they think about the life in ex Yugoslavia , and how they are living after they gained independence.
Its controversial
Im 23yo and thats what ived head
Genuinely i think it was better in yougo
But the stuff you could buy was limited, only salf made, people regularly smuggled stuff from austria.
Pay/job/standers of living where crazy good i thing.
You could get a job for life basically anywhere just by saying u want to work.
People could build there house no problem and buy a car, maybe not a modern fancy one, ot they had to wait, but they could
Then there is oppression, i would take it all for the country not beeing so s*t,
(my other comment)
But if u didn't go in the middle of the street saing stuff like tito fked up, or if somone didnt report u. You could prob think whatever.
There was also a thing called club of communism, and you weren't allowed to be religious
Then economy collapsed and all of the sudden we/they couldn't solve things with brotherhood and unity anymore.
@@EpicEnej You were not even born in Yougoslavia ... I call it Yougo-shit communist dictatorship. Compared to the west we were poor like church mauses and over one million people was working in Germany, austria,... Yougoslavia was tipical failed communist states and when cold war ended the western cheap loans also ended and this lead to the Yugoslavia bacrupcy-. We had for some time few hundred percent inflation per year, shortages of gas, coffee,... even toilet paper and washing powder. Not to mention we had special social bread for the poor peoples. Sic it was nightmare to survive.
This was not done by Slovenians, but by right-wingers who are now part of the political center in Slovenia. Never apologized, never regretted. They just destroyed people, families... Now Slovenians are paying for the sins of right-wing politics, which more than 75% do not support. Slovenians have nothing to do with it. Let this be said and done with. Tell everyone exactly who he was.
wrong..all these people will have a chance to become Slovenian citizens..half of them are soldiers of Yugoslav army who attacked Slovenia...half is calculating when Yugoslavia will win and become Serbians citizens..
Interesting video, thanks!
Isn't it the case that there are somewhat similar issues in Estonia and Latvia? Ethnic Russians, formerly citizens of the USSR, that haven't been granted Estonian or Latvian citizenship? Maybe that would be an interesting topic to cover as well
Thanks a lot! You’re absolutely right. There are some really interesting and important parallels. I certainly hope to look into it. And it’s quite interesting to see how the different Baltic Republics have handled this issue.
@@JamesKerLindsay Greetings,nice video professor. In Lithuania we handled this issue differently unlike our neighbours Estonia and Latvia. When Lithuania was occupied by the USSR. Many Lithuanians joined partisan ranks during 1944-1956 and were lead by high ranking commanders such as: General Jonas Žemaitis-Vytautas , Adolfas Ramanauskas-Vanagas and Juozas Lukša-Daumantas fought USSR secret, opressive police NKVD predecessor of KGB. And also Lithuania Communist Party Central Committee First Secretary Antanas Sniečkus was factual leader of Lithuania Soviet Socialist Republic tried to make country uninhabitably to Russian colonists. Because of these succesful measures many Russians chose to flee to former Estonian SSR and Latvian SSR. Because in those countries Anti-Soviet partisan movement was shorter .
I don't know about Estonia, but in Latvia anyone who wants to get Latvian citizenship can do so without any obstacles. You just have to fulfill the requirements. I think it is hard for outsiders to understand the situation if you only look at the surface. It is actually encouraged that they get the citizenship, but a lot of them are loyal to russia. They basically want the citizenship and then vote for the pro russia party in our elections. And if you just look how that turned out for Ukraine or Belarus, it is not the best course of action in my opinion.
@@Afgan8844 I think in Estonia getting citizenship requires some level of proficiency in the Estonian language, though I'm not 100% sure.
I would love to watch a video on Transnistria produced by you. I am just visiting the country and find this de facto state very interesting.
Thanks. Great suggestion. This is a topic I have been meaning to cover for ages. I must get round to it.
Please note that Transnistria is not a country. It is part of Moldova.
🥺
The guy have no clue. He is living on other side of the world in his buble and he just telling You propaganda of Yugo-nostalgic peoples which were mostly calculating Yugoslav communist and latter Serbian army will win!
I never knew a thing about this. Fascinating.
Im one of the erased children. I had only 13 years and my brother 9 years old. Thanks for sharing the true. We aply so we can go back to Slovenia and was refused while my parents did not even want to try becose is a lost case. Thanks again. We were both born in Slovenia.
Well blame Your perents! They could get as everybady at that time slovenian citizenship for few "dinars" or slovenian tolars (slovenian currency at that time) this would be few EUR now!! I wonder if Your father was not a officer in Yugoslav army and this has something to do he never wanted ot he was afraid to ask for slovenian citizenship.
@@peterkincep7808 We could get visas as foreigners but no it was better to erase us and treat us like shit. People lived 40 years in Slovenia and permanent resident would be ok but nationalism was steonger. Check first and then write.
@@peterkincep7808 My father was a bus driver in integral.
Great video professor thank you 🙏🏻
Thank you very much indeed. It is a tragic story. And it’s been interesting to read through the comments from Slovene nationalists who refuse to accept that the country did something fundamentally wrong, despite all the judgements made against the government internally and externally.
It's unfortunate and tragic, but I can understand. Look at what happened/is happening in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. There are a lot of non-citizens of Russian descend, who are stateless living in the Baltic states, with almost no chance of obtaining it. Sure, they can go to Russia and become the Russian nationals, but they choose not too. I have friends in Estonia with exactly this status, and as much as I think and care for their well-being, emotions apart, I understand Estonia, being a nation state of Estonians, whose demographics being abused during Soviet occupation.
Thanks. You are absolutely right. The treatment of the Russian communities in the Baltics has also been atrocious. And there are some interesting and important parallels. I really do hope to take a look at this in a future video.
@@JamesKerLindsay Good idea!
@@JamesKerLindsay they can learn basic Estonian and gain full citizenship. It's what's expected in other states either de fact if not de jure. I can't see what's difficult in learning the majority state language of the country you decide freely to live in. Would you live in Estonia and refuse to learn Estonian?
@@SionTJobbins You should not be forced to learn estonian in order to keep your right to live without discrimination or persecution in a place where you may have been born. One solution would be to have 2 or more official languages as in many european countries. i.e. belgium (3 official languages). Even India which was a colony of the UK adopted english as a second official language. I lived in Latvia for 7 years and chose to learn russian instead of latvian, because most people there do speak the language and it is so much more useful than latvian which no one speaks outside of latvia. I suspect very much the same is true for Estonia.
Except Slovenia was treated the best out off all Yugoslav states.
During the WWII the occupiers forced families from Slovenia to move to Serbia. Their intent was to make their lives miserable. However, Serbian people welcomed refugees from Slovenia like their own and helped them to resettle. After the war they kept in touch for many years. Then in the 90s, mr. Zimmermann noded to Slovenuan oposition and that was the beginnig of the end.
Honestly, I never knew about this. Thanks for the video James! Slovenia's choice to do something like that really was shameful. Perhaps a video on Luxembourg one day? Or another small country perhaps? I am still confused as to how Singapore became independent lol.
I hope all is well with you!
Thanks so much LE! I hope all is well with you. Yes. I’ve still got Singapore in the vault. And I will certainly try to do Luxembourg. :-)
The republics in Yugoslavia had their republican citizenship and permanent residence if you went to live in another republic. It is necessary to know the interwar nationalist propaganda against Slovenes in order to understand this problem. People who had permanent residence in Slovenia and did not deregister it when they had already moved to the west or to other republics during the Yugoslav era were erased. There were also a few who came back to live later or lived permanently in Slovenia, but these were mostly Slovenes by nationality. In those conditions when Slovenes were still learning to manage the country, they thought that people would register themselves within 6 months, so that they would even know who still lives in the country and who does not. However, it must also be said that these erased people were able to return to Slovenia at any time and regain their permanent residence, which was not possible in other Yugoslav republics, only if you were of the majority nationality. There were also such cases, for example, an Albanian who lived illegally in Germany and the Germans wanted to extradite him to Serbia because he had Serbian republican citizenship, which is more than just a permanent residence that expires in six months if you do not live in the country, but it was rejected by the Serbs. Only Slovenes wanted to take this Albanian because he once lived in Slovenia for some time during Yugoslavia and had a permanent residence which he did not deregister. It is not a problem for the erased to get their permanent residence back in Slovenia, but now that they see how fair and orderly Slovenia is, they want to have Slovenian citizenship under the same conditions as they were offered in 1991. They do not sue because they do not get the status they had in Yugoslavia, but because they would like citizenship and compensation for the time when they were not in Slovenia and were erased from their permanent residence. Due to propaganda, because no one in Slovenia stopped it and did not pay attention to how foreign nationalist forces would try to portray Slovenian independence as a criminal act, the lie became the truth. The Slovenes needed not only to learn how to run the country, but also to teach the nation that in reality other nations are much more nationalistic and wish them ill and do not have the same idea of the world. It is necessary to know the history, how foreigners ruled the Slovenes for a thousand years. They ruled the Slovenes by denationalizing them and confusing them by inciting one Slovene against another, and so a strong unified affiliation never developed. And they were also taught how incompetent they were that if it weren’t for their masters, others would destroy them. It is also important to know that other nations considered themselves more and looked down on the Slovenes because of their nationalist propaganda, so that at the beginning it was beneath their honor to cooperate and accept the new state. Due to the confusion about belonging to either communism or Yugoslavia or pan Slavism or the newly created state, politicians quickly began to take advantage of this without conscience and thus deepen the rift between Slovenes, so that Slovenes have no idea how others treat them, because they quarrel with each other and have their own themes. In Slovenia, there is almost a civil war between the old communist elite, which took over the country practically after independence again, because the newly formed parties did not get acquainted with politics and did not remove the former elite from the main positions and media. The Slovenes in Yugoslavia were the most enslaved nation in the world, because no other nation had to give so much for other nations. If we had not left Yugoslavia, given Slovenia's economic backwardness due to the withdrawal of its funds, Slovenia would be less developed today than Bosnia. In terms of purchasing power, it was already captured by Serbia in the 1990s. In Slovenia, immigrants received all the best apartments, but Slovenes sometimes had to wait for years to get their turn. And many did not pay the bills because they saw Slovenia as their prey and no one could do anything to them. Also because during the Yugoslav era, due to high inflation, the Serbs gave their Serb people stamps to sell to Slovenes at high prices, and a hundred other things could be said about it, so in the end independence was the only option if they did not want to go bankrupt or however, to emigrate from Yugoslavia, as forced by the authorities last year in Yugoslavia.
@@kosarkosar7683 In Yugoslavia we have had all Yugoslavian citizenship, not repulican one. We have had just different nationality (what wasn`t the same) depends of your own nationality. I have remembered in 1983 by passing papers for Faculty study. My friend has written in place for citizenship Slovenian and he hasn`t had to change it to Yugoslavian. He has had a lot of problems with police. So he hasproved just Yugoslavian citizenship was able in Yugoslavia.
@@bojanstare8667 It was republican-Yugoslav citizenship, which was valid only within Yugoslavia. In all the former republics, those who did not have this were treated and erased. Unlike the fact that you were able to arrange this in Slovenia without a bribe, you only showed that you had a permanent residence in Slovenia at any time, not only in the last year, if you wanted to be registered again. In other republics, they even erased those who were born in the republic and emigrated from it through Yugoslavia or abroad, unless you were a member of a majority nation. It is true that everywhere in Yugoslavia at that time they had existential problems and disorder in transition, because no one was ready for everything that happened. However, in Slovenia they at least admitted that the system was not perfect and they were never denied re-application of documents, even if they no longer lived in Slovenia at the time. Of the 180,000 people with other republican-Yugoslav papers who had permanent residence in Slovenia and lived in Slovenia at the time, 500 were erased because they had not edited new papers until one year after independence, and it was not known who still lived in republic. About 1,000 of them later returned across the already established border and all had permanent residence status without any problems. They just had to wait for the bureaucracy to change the documents, but they were not allowed citizenship because they did not live in Slovenia at the time, but came across the border back from Western Europe, mostly where they worked. Others had built houses in their hometowns and felt at home there, never even thinking of living in Slovenia permanently. Only in Macedonia did this problem begin to be publicly acknowledged last year. In other republics, they will never admit that they themselves have erased people because they do not want to show that they too have made mistakes, and they are afraid that others will use their confession in propaganda against them. Because the belittling of others is still very much alive in Yugoslavia. In Slovenia, this accusation appeared as a belittling of those parties that participated in independence, as nowadays covid measures against the ruling parties, because there is a strong struggle between the parties and they are not interested in how it will be used against the state, according to the interpellation events for nationalist propaganda against Slovenes.
@@kosarkosar7683 First, what do you mean with republican-Yugoslav citizenship?
Second, all citizens of Slovenia (residents) have got certificate, if he or she have had Slovenian nationality in evidences. Others have had to ask for new citizenship of Slovenia. Even my father (born in Ljubljana, but he was in evidence in Čabar, Croatia) has had to ask for new citizenship. Also his friend, who has mother, born in Austria, have had to do the same way. Residence is more complicated. If you have permanent residence in Slovenia, youshouldn`t loose it through the other nationality. You could be asked by government to arrange papers for a new citizenship. It was their will, if they wanted to have new citizenship or not. But government have deleted their permanent residence papers without law basics. Asa matter of fact, it was just this idiot reaction of ministry for internal affairs, which has made such mistake. And that`s why EU court for human rights have had all the evidence for a conviction. Evidently government act was fair, but not legal. Same as todays government make a lot of mistakes to override laws and constitution. Same way everytime when conservative partei is in government. It is really crazy.
I assume the problem was some people are mean no matter where you go. Slovenians were a lot of times treated poorly so when some vengeful people finally got to be in charge they were rutheless.
I'm glad we are doing better these days. Being respectful towards people who are respectful towards us. I just want to emphasize. There should be a legal requirement for people who live in slovenia to speak slovenian. You can speak whatever you want at home and with friends but when you are in a formal inviroment or interacting with other slovenians you SHOULD know how to speak slovenian (unless you are a tourist ofc). You won't go to america and speak your language and imagine everyone will understand you. Respect us and we will respect you. (At last the normal ones will at last)
It's a little known issue with a reason. Slovenia's population has always been the most homogenous out of all former Yugoslav regions. Therefore, persons in the minority who were ultimately not eligible to gain Slovenian citizenship have largely brought it onto themselves. A person who is not aware of what is happening in their immediate surrounding, does not belong in the surrounding.
Ah yes, another charming voice of Slovenian intolerance. Seriously, I’m not sure if all the Slovenian nationalists have any idea what this comments section has done for the country’s image for anyone outside who believes that Slovenes are all very easy going and tolerant. Most are. But it’s interesting to see that it has it own share of narrow minded xenophobes.
@@JamesKerLindsay You are xenophobe and a nerrow minded lier. 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!! Even people which were fighting against Slovenian independence with arms.
I was researching through British and American archives and newspapers such as "The Times", "Miami Herald", and "Los Angeles Post" from the 1970s and early 1980s. I was surprised to come across derogatory remarks made by Slovenians about Kosovars, Macedonians, Montenegrins, and Serbians. They were described as lazy, dirty, and nasty. The Slovenians portrayed themselves as superior and felt ashamed to be part of a union with these Yugoslavian states. For instance, a Slovenian journalist interviewed by Miami Herald in 1981 mentioned feeling like he was in Egypt or India when in Prishtina or Skopje. Another individual claimed that these states were taking advantage of Slovenia. These comments were made before Milosevic rose to power.
I can confirm that this is unfortunately still the case. Maybe not in newspapers (woke culture an all).
Slovenians like to imagine themselves as "bus bees"; so much so that they somehow managed to convince other exYu republik of it...
Giving citizenship to those who took up arms - is that really required?
This neglects the fact that very few of those opposed the state. There were lots of reasons why people didn’t apply in time. They may have been ill. They may have had mental health problems. They may have been out of the country. They had a a short window of opportunity to apply. And there were no online forms then. The Slovenian Supreme Court decided the government was wrong. The ECHR did as well. Just accept it.
@@JamesKerLindsay May be You have mentall helth problems to. 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
The break up of Yugoslavia caught many by surprise and many did not want to face the reality of what was happening. My wife suddenly found that she was a citizen of 2 countries: Croatia and Yugo. This only came to light when she tried to obtain a new Yugo passport during the war/break up. A Croatian passport was 'obtained' by her mother as she had the political contacts in both Croatia and Yugo.
It should be noted that even today, in 2023, most Slovenes do not understand or refuse to acknowledge what this was all about. They say that people who did not apply for citizenship are now claiming it in bad faith. In reality, this issue has nothing to do with citizenship, it has to do with permanent residence; CITIZENSHIP AND PERMANENT RESIDENCE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, you can have neither, one or both. Actually, it is perfectly normal to have citizenship of one country and permanent residence of another when working abroad. So this was all about people having their permanent residence permit revoked in an illegitimate procedure.
Moreover, many Slovenians still speculate that those who did not apply for citizenship were in fact against Slovenian independence. Well, that may be true for few of them, but the vast majority were not against Slovenian independence. Some did not know that they did not already have Slovenian citizenship, some were not aware of the offer, others could not apply for it because they were not in the country at the time. I even know one person from Croatia who was obviously in favour of Slovenian and Croatian independence and who knew about applying for citizenship but decided against it. He argued: I have Croatian citizenship and a Slovenian permanent residence, I do not need/want Slovenian citizenship. Oh boy, was he in for a nasty surprise. Fortunately, his profession was in high demand, so his employer quickly sorted the matter out. Now he has Slovenian citizenship, which he never needed/wanted, because he would have settled for just keeping a residence permit.
I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that it would be legitimate to deprive a person of permanent residence only if it can be shown that they have participated in aggression or have left the country permanently.
(Disclaimer: all my comments on RUclips are temporary and I withhold the right to delete them without notice)
Thanks. I agree. If you read through the comments, there are a lot of Slovenes who repeat the talking points you mentioned. It really wasn’t as straightforward as they like to think. Many didn’t realise the implications. And it is indeed wrong to say that they were all against independence.
And I have to say that this is the first time I have ever read a legal disclaimer on a RUclips comment! :-)
@@JamesKerLindsay Thank you for your comment, it was a pleasant surprise.
I would only like to add that IMHO one of the reasons why this matter is still not clarified in the Slovenian public is that even the supporters of the "erased" people are not aware that this is NOT about citizenship; they only point to the inhumane consequences of the matter instead of pointing out the obvious (legal) contradiction in the argumentation of the opponents of the "erased" people too.
As for the disclaimer, I always try my best to write insightful and balanced comments, but they almost always end up in a huge flaming. So I end up deleting the comment rather than participating in that.
@@markopinteric Thanks. I understand. Sometimes it’s just better to ignore the trolls.
As somebody who's travelled to that part of the world several times I sympathize with Slovenia.
They gave these people opportunity.
And unlike the proper and on time Slovenian, they were late.
Do what you're told when you're told to do it in some cases.
Slovenia = German efficiency and properness mixed with Slavic culture.
Sorry but that is simply not true. It was a time of huge upheaval. Some weren’t in the country. Others may have had mental health issues or other problems. Britain have people years to register as EU citizens after Brexit and hundreds of thousands missed the deadliness Slovenia gave people three months - in the pre-internet age. Really, this wasn’t appropriate. And let’s remember that the European Court of Human Rights agreed it wasn’t. Seriously, there’s no real defence for what happened. It was, quite literally, inhuman.
@@JamesKerLindsay
I will agree with you doctor.
I am in no position to argue with the facts or somebody of your achievements.
Slovenia is one of the most homogeneous populations in Europe.
Part of you deep down must not blame them for wanting to keep it that way.
One Almanac I read said 99% Roman Catholic and
95% Slovenian.
Probably doesn't make it right though.
Thank you for the information.
@@1joshjosh1 Thanks. There’s certainly no reason to defer to me just because if the titles! :-) Slovenia is a lovely country. I know it very well and have been many times. But this was an unfortunate stain on that reputation. It was worth conversing as it was one of the lesser known aspects of the break up of Yugoslavia.
@@JamesKerLindsay
It literally is German efficiency mixed with Slavic culture.
Many Bosnians and Serbians accuse Slovenians of only thinking about making money and being on time.
😆
@@JamesKerLindsay
But you are right it was a good discussion.
Slovenians considered themselfes usually as central european, not part of the balkan. The ppl from other parts of Ex-YU who live there remind them of this past they want to leave behind. But I was surprised about comments from slovenes under yt videos, there is also something like Jugo- nostalgia there
we were never balkans
@@Histra QED
.
Geographically, we're in the Balkans, which begins with our Westernmost border, the Soča river.
Culturally we're Slavic, but with strong central European influence. (former German/Austrian dominion) Slovenia is mostly Catholic, and has a long Christian tradition, going back to the days of (sometimes violent) Christianization in the HRE. This puts us closer to something like the Czech republic, or Slovakia, which were also Slavic nations part of the former Austro-Hungarian empire.
Politically we also gravitate towards Germany/central Europe, like Croatia south of us.
But not towards Belgrade, the former capital of Yugoslavia and current capital of Serbia. Even during the Yugoslav days, Slovenia preferred our own autonomous policy over listening to Belgrade.
That's a short recap.
It's always incredible to hear one's own history from a foreign perspective. It really highlights how much information is influenced by mass media and how little is sometimes known about the full picture. In Slovenia, everyone had the opportunity to obtain the new nationality, including those who later claimed to have been erased. The issues arose when the process was closed, and some missed the due dates. Fortunately, this matter has now been resolved.
Let's all strive to stay close to the facts and understand the complexities of such situations.
A bejž no in kako je bila stvar rešena? Z maščevanjem nad ubogimi ljudmi, ki se niso mogli in znali braniti in z neupoštevanjem odločbe US ? Ali pa mogoče z bednimi odškodninami, ki niti slučajno niso kompenzirale nastale škode ??
I wonder what would've happened with all the EU citizens that chose to not take care of their status in the UK after Brexit?
Would the UK's highest courts also have ruled that these EU citizens who decided not to sort out their status in the UK had a reasonable expectation that they wouldn't be treated the same as foreigners that were only then moving to the UK and that they won't lose their residency? That these EU citizens had a reasonable expectation that them not sorting out their status will not significantly worsen their legal situation and that they will still be able to reside in the UK if they so chose?
Because that was literally the reasoning of the Slovenian constitutional court.
So, what would've happened to any EU citizen who actively chose not to sort out their post-Brexit status in the UK? And yes, for this to be even slightly equivalent, they would've also ignored the additional time to sort out the situation. And let's ignore the fact that these EU citizens weren't supporters of an enemy country that was literally driving tanks around the UK, shooting up stuff.
In fact, the EU citizens living in Britain who failed to meet the deadline is likely to become an issue. There are estimated to be several hundred thousand who missed it - even after years of notice (remember that in Slovenia it was just a few months, and all this in an era before things could be done online). There have already been cases of lots of elderly who didn't know they had to do it, often because they had been here for decades. So, yes, I fully expect court cases.
And I really have problems with this idea that they were all traitors. They weren't. This is a lazy justification that has crept in. Sadly, I suspect many of these repeating it probably weren't even alive when this happened. It was a confusing time. Many of those who missed it may have had mental health problems. Others might have been out of the country and unable to get back. (There was a war going on.) Besides, the Slovenian Constitutional Court and the ECHR have both made their rulings on this and decided that the Government behaved unacceptably.
@@JamesKerLindsay Well, once we see how Britain solves that issue, we can revisit whether Slovenia truly committed such a heinous act.
I'll give you that those who were genuinely not capable of understanding or acting on the situation shouldn't have been treated this way. But anyone that had the right to vote and was able to sort things out has zero excuse, IMHO, and I wouldn't hesitate considering them opportunists at best.
I've given you a translation of the Slovenian Constitutional Court's reasoning. That's why I will now be expecting you to blast Britain equally harshly if they don't just let everyone who didn't and doesn't sort out their status carry on as if nothing happened. I mean, if the UK were to abide by the same standards as our CC imposed on our government, there would've been no need for anyone to sort out their status in Britain in the first place.
But hey, we're used to double standards from northern/western EU people down here. If we do it, it's criminal. If you do it, it's business as usual. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Have you seen situation in UK now? How manny Polack , mosstly truck drivers, have gone back in EU because of Brexit? Markets were the same as market in Soviet Union in 50-is. :-)
Astonishing, completely unknown to me, even that I fancy myself as an informed and inquisitive individual. Europe is truly a troubled pot of grievances...
I knew of the case of Maribor 1918-1919, unrest and expulsion of German and Hungarian speaking from the city. Around 1900 they constituted 82.3% of the city population, but the surrounding lands were predominantly Slovenian.
What shaped me as a young person was a little event of a train ride in Switzerland, Luzern to Lugano. As we closed on Tessin/Ticino a double name of station showed: German atop/Italian below. The next station was Italian atop/German below. Next was only Italian. This simple case was so impressive to me: Why can't we learn from the Swiss to live with an ethnic mix without the hysteria of bureaucratic or personal chicanes and grievances? Apparently we still cannot.
I appreciate this kind of topics so much. There is nothing so small when it comes to issues of human rights violations. It's so easy to ignore when you are fortunate not to be a part of the marginalized 1%. Good to know that EU is looking into this as well for applicant states.
Thanks you so much. And you are absolutely right. Human rights are about individual rights. Every violation, even if it seems small, is a violation of someone's rights. And it will deeply affect that person. People really shouldn't lose sight of this. Great point!
@@JamesKerLindsay The republics in Yugoslavia had their republican citizenship and permanent residence if you went to live in another republic. It is necessary to know the interwar nationalist propaganda against Slovenes in order to understand this problem. People who had permanent residence in Slovenia and did not deregister it when they had already moved to the west or to other republics during the Yugoslav era were erased. There were also a few who came back to live later or lived permanently in Slovenia, but these were mostly Slovenes by nationality. In those conditions when Slovenes were still learning to manage the country, they thought that people would register themselves within 6 months, so that they would even know who still lives in the country and who does not. However, it must also be said that these erased people were able to return to Slovenia at any time and regain their permanent residence, which was not possible in other Yugoslav republics, only if you were of the majority nationality. There were also such cases, for example, an Albanian who lived illegally in Germany and the Germans wanted to extradite him to Serbia because he had Serbian republican citizenship, which is more than just a permanent residence that expires in six months if you do not live in the country, but it was rejected by the Serbs. Only Slovenes wanted to take this Albanian because he once lived in Slovenia for some time during Yugoslavia and had a permanent residence which he did not deregister. It is not a problem for the erased to get their permanent residence back in Slovenia, but now that they see how fair and orderly Slovenia is, they want to have Slovenian citizenship under the same conditions as they were offered in 1991. They do not sue because they do not get the status they had in Yugoslavia, but because they would like citizenship and compensation for the time when they were not in Slovenia and were erased from their permanent residence. Due to propaganda, because no one in Slovenia stopped it and did not pay attention to how foreign nationalist forces would try to portray Slovenian independence as a criminal act, the lie became the truth. The Slovenes needed not only to learn how to run the country, but also to teach the nation that in reality other nations are much more nationalistic and wish them ill and do not have the same idea of the world. It is necessary to know the history, how foreigners ruled the Slovenes for a thousand years. They ruled the Slovenes by denationalizing them and confusing them by inciting one Slovene against another, and so a strong unified affiliation never developed. And they were also taught how incompetent they were that if it weren’t for their masters, others would destroy them. It is also important to know that other nations considered themselves more and looked down on the Slovenes because of their nationalist propaganda, so that at the beginning it was beneath their honor to cooperate and accept the new state. Due to the confusion about belonging to either communism or Yugoslavia or pan Slavism or the newly created state, politicians quickly began to take advantage of this without conscience and thus deepen the rift between Slovenes, so that Slovenes have no idea how others treat them, because they quarrel with each other and have their own themes. In Slovenia, there is almost a civil war between the old communist elite, which took over the country practically after independence again, because the newly formed parties did not get acquainted with politics and did not remove the former elite from the main positions and media. The Slovenes in Yugoslavia were the most enslaved nation in the world, because no other nation had to give so much for other nations. If we had not left Yugoslavia, given Slovenia's economic backwardness due to the withdrawal of its funds, Slovenia would be less developed today than Bosnia. In terms of purchasing power, it was already captured by Serbia in the 1990s. In Slovenia, immigrants received all the best apartments, but Slovenes sometimes had to wait for years to get their turn. And many did not pay the bills because they saw Slovenia as their prey and no one could do anything to them. Also because during the Yugoslav era, due to high inflation, the Serbs gave their Serb people stamps to sell to Slovenes at high prices, and a hundred other things could be said about it, so in the end independence was the only option if they did not want to go bankrupt or however, to emigrate from Yugoslavia, as forced by the authorities last year in Yugoslavia.
Any country will protect there way of life or die !! You sound like you are English & look at your country !
Excellent video - I did not know this. Citizenship is obviously important - yet I do believe countries are ultimately responsible for who gets it. No human should suffer from statelessness... yet how do we measure that with the soverign right of nations to pick her own people? It's not an easy question, especially when ethnicity is involved. It's easy to proclaim 'oh it doesn't matter, we're all equal' - the latter, sure. But not the former. Yet having that stance requires alot of work. Idk what I'm getting at here - but Westerners can have a flippant attitude towards citizenship, statehood and ethnic history. If you want to have a multilinguistic country with various cultures, leaders must understand it won't always be easy and there are real challenges. By studying Slovenia and the broader Yugoslavia, we can build a nexus of wisdom in handling these complexities.
Thanks very much. I know many people see this as a relatively minor issue as compared with the wars of the 1990s. However, it is very important in its own way.
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It si a lie! 99,99 % of it
2 million people Slovenia with their industry, sience and hard working mentality (closest to Austrians nad Germans) bassicaly held above the water economy of the rest of 20 million Yugoslavs, employed many of them and gave them decent conditions to live. Slovenia accepted 70,000 war refugees in first half of the 1990s, schooled them, gave them jobs, shelters, medical care. Even after independence and especially since EU entry, Slovenia is financially supporting tens of thousands of migrants from, gave them and whole their families good financial transfers for giving births and doing bassically nothing. They are all heavily sucked into the Slovenian state treasury. More and more are coming, just like otherplaces in Europe, not speaking the language, Slovenians are slowly becoming a minority. So stop trashing on this beatiful country.
jansa is a fascist, just like you and koroski slo
It was SFRJ,not slovenija,
As a Slovenian that lived threw that I am asamed that it happened and the cover up afterwords. But it should be stated clarly that everyone who registered acordenly, was granted cidisenship and that it was defined automaticly by a place of birthy and not nacionality.
Thank you. You are right. It is important to note that the large majority of Yugoslavs living in Slovenia at the time applied for, and were granted, citizenship. It is just a shame that the government behaved so badly towards those who missed the deadline.
@@JamesKerLindsayYou have to understand that Yugoslavia wes a union and that the mayorty of its citisents have nacional and federal percepcion of them selphs. A Yugoslav nacionaly was never mayoritly excpted and the county borke up because it coudnt agree on a its future organization. Slovins and Croats were for confederation white Serbs and Montenegrions were for unitarian stat Bosnians and Macedonians were somwhere in the midle. Slovins were lingvicticaly diferent and we were the most econamicly developed republic dus we had the biggest populiation of workers from other parts of the union, there were sam nacionalistic, religous and especialy economic tentions ad segregation but generaly they were excepted by mayority and they assimilated quiqly becoming an integral part of Slovenian society. As such they mayortly suported independence on referendum and in the war that folowed. A large procetage of erised were army and other federal intitutios employs and ther families as ther funtions were inhertly ageist Slovinian sestion causess they were seen as animies in many cases they alsow moved with the shrinking federation not realizing that its days were numebered, caming bect to Slovenia due to economic, political ore social unrest in the repubics of their birth. Due to the antiy sesecional creck down and a short war some pubick Yugoslav mlitary yuresdicinal personal were proclamed as state enymies and unwanted. In any case this legistration was past on in termoil of indepedance strugle when the Slovins felt that our esparation of an independant stat was in dangere. In 30 years Slovenia excepted far more people from formar YU that it erased dus it was esentaly unjust, unenececary and economicly stupid not to correct the low whan the dagere ended.
@@majolko Pomanševalna imena se uporabljajo za tiste, ki se skrivajo za profili. Me veseli da ti angleško pisanje ne predstavlja težav , čudi me pa ne, da te ob takem obnašanju čudno gledajo tako domači kot tudi tuji slušatelji. Lp
@@JamesKerLindsay I'm not anywhere near the part of the world you are discussing. But if the people were given the opportunity to become citizens of Slovenia and missed the deadline, then isn't that on them? Why are you having more sympathy for the people who failed to be responsible, than for the people who did things correctly? I don't understand. Btw...very interesting video. I have never heard any of this history regarding the breakup of Yugoslavia.
@@JamesKerLindsay They missed the deadline because of their own damn fault. Traitors, who were saying all the time "this is still Yugoslavia" and tried to resist the reality they were going trough. Instead of doing what they were supposed to, they were playing a hero and throwing a tantrum about Slovenias independance. They had more than enough time to apply for citizenship and they wasted it with throwing a fit.
(this is not a popular oppinion, but it's true)
The people crying most about Slovenia becoming independent are from the same coutnries that are now fleeing here for better life and EU pay. Slovenia is greater than any other Ex Yugo country.
This is a bunch of nonsense from an outsider unfamiliar with the root causes of the Slovenes' actions. The Slovenian people have a right to determine what sort of country they're going to have. They can see what's happened to Britain and America where the immigrants have the rights at the expense of those already there. As a journalist covering the wars in the former Yugoslavia I saw "Britons" of Pakistani and other Muslim nationalities fighting the Brits in the UN peacekeeping force. What was the point of attacking the peacekeepers? Well, they were British and these British citizens hate the British. That's what Slovenes want to avoid. The Serbs in Slovenia represented, and still represent, a fifth column working with the Serbian government to subvert the will of the Slovenian people. Look what the Serbs are doing in Bosnia. Do you think the Serbs in Slovenia are any different than those in Bosnia? In Dubrovnik Serbs acted as forward artillery observers for the JNA guns shelling the city. I personally witnessed a number of cases of this. A Croatian-American friend of mine, a man born and raised in the USA, took a job with a Slovenian firm. This was long before Yugoslavia broke up. His Slovenian employer made it clear that he was expected to learn the Slovenian language right away. I think you'll find many of the erased didn't see that as important. The Slovenes, and everybody else on Planet Earth, have a right to defend their culture.
This is a lazy comment with extremely unpleasant racist overtones. I know the region extremely well. I have been to Slovenia many times. I actually knew one of the erased. I’d actually say that your knowledge of the situation is very limited - and depressingly nationalist. You clearly have no idea about the Serbian community in Slovenia, which is in fact very well integrated. If you bothered to watch the video, and knew the situation, the vast majority of Serbs - and Croats, and Bosniaks, and Albanians - applied for citizenship and got it without a problem. It’s just that a few failed to do, often for reasons that weren’t their fault, and then faced a horrifically traumatic time. But you’d rather present it as Slovenes ‘defending their culture’ rather than Slovenes doing the right thing by their fellow human beings.
But everything in your comment tells anyone reading this exchange that compassion and humanity is clearly not your thing.
@@JamesKerLindsay I am Slovenian and I am praud to be Slovenian. And he is telling he truth. Not so long ago treitors were shot. But Slovenia offered citizenship to almost everybady even to the people who fought against Slovenia at that time. 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
@@JamesKerLindsay So Your own country gives free citizenship to everybady who attacks You or come by accidentally?
It will be great if we can know the status of Slovenia in the Austrian/ Hungarian monarchy
There were issues and some were erased by mistake, but a lot of those people didn't want our documents because they believed serboslavia will win the war.
James, you are correct.
Again, dear James, the map is not correct. :)
But that aside, it's nice to see a Western Yugoslav-themed video in which Serbs are not portrayed as sole contributors to the horrors of the 90's collapse.
And, again, a nicely done video. :)
Thanks. Much appreciated! And the point about the map duly noted. :-)
By the way, keep an eye out for the video the week after next. Assuming there’s no big developments elsewhere, I hope to do another Yugoslavia video. You might want to see it.
@@JamesKerLindsay Sure I would, looking forward to it! Thanks!
What's wrong with the map?
I have known a Serbian family living in Slovene capital Ljubljana that thought during the time of the war that Yugoslavian army would win.
The mother was so sure of Yugoslav cause that she refused to take her kids to a shelter during the air raids, staying in her flat even when we could hear the Yugoslav MIGs breaking the sound barrier above our heads and air raid sirens blaring. In her own wors: "The pilots will know not to bomb a Serb home."
That particular family had some issues with getting the documents since they refused to get them at first, but even they got them. Later the Slovene government even sold them the public flat that they lived in for a symbolic price.
EU and Slovenia (2 million) is not obligated to take care and support the whole Balkan (20 million). The same goes for ME, Africa and other third world countries.
If those independent countries can't make any economic and safety progress in all those decades, that is definetely not fault of Slovenia or other Western countries.
Slovenia is home to 150,000 - 200,000 ex-Yugoslavs, after Slovenia gained its independence, it arranged for its citizens. The others did not want to do this, in the time set for acquiring Slovenian citizenship, because they did not want to renounce their citizenship of the former Yugoslav republics. Later, however, they were blackmailed and dramatized because they were treated like everyone else who wanted Slovenian citizenship. In each country, the laws for obtaining citizenship apply in each country!
problem izbrisanih nima apsolutno nobene povezave z drzavljanstvom, draga. Zato ne bluzi prevec.
@@Janez-h1e 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
There is no such thing as a yugoslav. Except if it is meant in the way soviet was used for people of USSR
Thanks, but not really true. There were most certainly Yugoslavs, in the sense that there are British, but then people can define themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish.
@@JamesKerLindsay Well, you could have said European or even just human. Not saying if erased are serbs, croats or roma. Who were they? Yugoslav has as broad meaning as a soviet.
@@EvgeniPetrov Who were they? South Slavs. People from Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia&Hercegovina. Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. Do you need any more info?
It seems reasonable to me that you must comply with the laws of citizenship after being informed and enabled to do so, especially when >90% of participants voted for that country to exist and again >90% agreed you should comply - and given that many of those who didn’t comply did so because they didn’t want that citizenship because they were in a tiny minority who were opposed to the existence of the country. Indeed, some had even taken up arms to prevent the existence of the country!
Rather than a legal process to secure the rights that they had previously specifically declined, it seems there should rather have been legal process of treason against them!
Exactly and many of this who have taken up arms against independance Slovenia get at the end slovenia citizenship and jobs and pensions in Slovenia. Which is a shame!
Slovenia is such a beautiful country 🇸🇮❤
This is Slovakian flag 🇸🇰and this is Slovenian 🇸🇮
@@matejtrdina5445 whoops, I typed "Slo" into my search bar and I have pretty bad eyesight so must have clicked the Slovak flag on accident lmao
Yes, Slovenia has the best of everything and takes pride in its nature. Slovenians talk of the mountain peaks as if they were family members. Law and order is evident in every manicured flowerbed. It makes the tacit racism underneath the veneer all the more shocking and cruel.
@@Xenia9 I haven't lived in those times but my family have experienced all that you named. Mussolini's men burning Trieste Community Hall, driving families out of the city, forced removals by Germans from Steier, crossing the barbed wire block into Ljubljana.
But you may not be aware of treatment of "čefurji" or Facebook's Zlovenija.
@@freezing5 And you cross south border and law and order gradually disappears southern you go. So you know who you are dealing with! Is it still so shockingly cruel now?
not entirely correct. they had more than once chance to apply for citizenship. they just rejected those because they were bunch of nationalists
As a Slovenian who lived thru a brotherly war. I would rather ask that question to Croats and Serbs. We still love our Yugo brothers, but they pretty much all hate us. Slava Slovanom! Sužnjem Evropejcem in Arabcem tisoče let!
Dude, maybe our polititians hate eachother, or they want us to think so. I am a Croat, i have many Friends from Slovenia, they Spend Summers in Croatia, we Spend Winters in Slovenia, we eat and Drink together, we laugh and cry together. I don't Care what anyone says or what country we live in, IT will be so forever.
@@TGSSMC God bless you brother. I will always love to come to your Dalmatian coastline.
They hate you because you are as rich as all of them combined and one of the best countries to live in. Something they cant do.
The republics in Yugoslavia had their republican citizenship and permanent residence if you went to live in another republic. It is necessary to know the interwar nationalist propaganda against Slovenes in order to understand this problem. People who had permanent residence in Slovenia and did not deregister it when they had already moved to the west or to other republics during the Yugoslav era were erased. There were also a few who came back to live later or lived permanently in Slovenia, but these were mostly Slovenes by nationality. In those conditions when Slovenes were still learning to manage the country, they thought that people would register themselves within 6 months, so that they would even know who still lives in the country and who does not. However, it must also be said that these erased people were able to return to Slovenia at any time and regain their permanent residence, which was not possible in other Yugoslav republics, only if you were of the majority nationality. There were also such cases, for example, an Albanian who lived illegally in Germany and the Germans wanted to extradite him to Serbia because he had Serbian republican citizenship, which is more than just a permanent residence that expires in six months if you do not live in the country, but it was rejected by the Serbs. Only Slovenes wanted to take this Albanian because he once lived in Slovenia for some time during Yugoslavia and had a permanent residence which he did not deregister. It is not a problem for the erased to get their permanent residence back in Slovenia, but now that they see how fair and orderly Slovenia is, they want to have Slovenian citizenship under the same conditions as they were offered in 1991. They do not sue because they do not get the status they had in Yugoslavia, but because they would like citizenship and compensation for the time when they were not in Slovenia and were erased from their permanent residence. Due to propaganda, because no one in Slovenia stopped it and did not pay attention to how foreign nationalist forces would try to portray Slovenian independence as a criminal act, the lie became the truth. The Slovenes needed not only to learn how to run the country, but also to teach the nation that in reality other nations are much more nationalistic and wish them ill and do not have the same idea of the world. It is necessary to know the history, how foreigners ruled the Slovenes for a thousand years. They ruled the Slovenes by denationalizing them and confusing them by inciting one Slovene against another, and so a strong unified affiliation never developed. And they were also taught how incompetent they were that if it weren’t for their masters, others would destroy them. It is also important to know that other nations considered themselves more and looked down on the Slovenes because of their nationalist propaganda, so that at the beginning it was beneath their honor to cooperate and accept the new state. Due to the confusion about belonging to either communism or Yugoslavia or pan Slavism or the newly created state, politicians quickly began to take advantage of this without conscience and thus deepen the rift between Slovenes, so that Slovenes have no idea how others treat them, because they quarrel with each other and have their own themes. In Slovenia, there is almost a civil war between the old communist elite, which took over the country practically after independence again, because the newly formed parties did not get acquainted with politics and did not remove the former elite from the main positions and media. The Slovenes in Yugoslavia were the most enslaved nation in the world, because no other nation had to give so much for other nations. If we had not left Yugoslavia, given Slovenia's economic backwardness due to the withdrawal of its funds, Slovenia would be less developed today than Bosnia. In terms of purchasing power, it was already captured by Serbia in the 1990s. In Slovenia, immigrants received all the best apartments, but Slovenes sometimes had to wait for years to get their turn. And many did not pay the bills because they saw Slovenia as their prey and no one could do anything to them. Also because during the Yugoslav era, due to high inflation, the Serbs gave their Serb people stamps to sell to Slovenes at high prices, and a hundred other things could be said about it, so in the end independence was the only option if they did not want to go bankrupt or however, to emigrate from Yugoslavia, as forced by the authorities last year in Yugoslavia.
@GreatEurasia The same thing is understood in Slovenia by all nations, but there are always some who listen to propaganda from foreign sources, who convince them that they must resist Slovenia, otherwise they will betray their nation, although after 30 years the emotions have calmed down. Because they realized that they did not have such a strong army that they could rule. In the last 30 years, there have been more immigrants from the former Yugoslavia in Slovenia than before, mainly due to greater economic progress and more employment opportunities. Even Slovenia has enabled workers from the former Yugoslav republics to send workers directly from their countries to the Slovenian Employment Service to work as if they were in the EU. It even offers them free study with financial aid if they come to study in Slovenia. Slovenes do not see these immigrants as foreigners as if they were brothers, they do not even have to speak Slovene with Slovenes, but in their own language. Even if they do not understand Slovene, Slovenes speak Serbo-Croatian with them. Serbo-Croatian in Slovenia can be spoken by practically everyone, because they listen to music in this language and are used to talking to immigrants from an early age in their language. Young people all understand almost everything, only some do not know how to respond well in the Serbo-Croatian language, because people are different in speaking skills and some are not so much in contact with this language and find it harder to speak.
I was born in former Yugoslavia,we all had the Yugoslavian passports,regardless of the republic we were born or lived in, officially we all used to be Yugoslavs….Yugoslav Citizens/ citizen ship
Personal ID cards or driving licences were not a prof or the citizen ship ,but there was no restrictions to drive trough the whole Yugoslavia
Sounds like you feel Yugo-nostalgia?
@@Ballykeith What is wrong with it?
@@sriharshacv7760 I didn't say anything was wrong with it.
Till Yugo-sralija (Yugo-shit) fell apart!
My husband was always listed as Slovenian (drzavljan Slovenije), born 1981, while his sister was listed as Yugoslav (drzavljan Jugoslovije), born 1979, parents could pick at birth the citizenship they want for their kids. It was to my knowledge never 100% Yugoslavian citizenship.
Why didn’t they just move to Serbia if they didn’t want Slovene citizenship?
many did. But they came covertly back when the life in former Yougoslavia totaly colapsed because bacrupcy of the state and then civil war. 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
Please do a feature on how the Russian minority is treated in the Baltics after collapse of the USSR!
In the Baltics, if there is any suspicion you might be a Russian, you are denied education, medicine, pension, applying for citizenship, protection from the law, a chance to learn the Baltic language, and you are forced to live in city sewers or WWII style ghettoes. Oh, the hardship. But no matter -- soon the mighty righteous Putler will free Ukrainians of their delusions of statehood by shooting everyone who might be a Nazi in the back of the head. Then Putler will be able to free the poor oppressed Russians from the ungrateful Baltic pseudodonations invented by Lenin.
Yes, the treatment of Russians in Baltics has been absolutely atrocious. After Baltics regained independence they suddenly turned from loving Russians to hating them for some unfathomable reason. And that is even after the Baltics were saved from the evil of capitalism by the wonderful communist economy thus becoming more rich and prosperous than Russia. Russian regime even had to resort to re-educating any Baltic nationalists by throwing them out of the windows in order for Baltics not to harm themselves. Not to mention sending the poor starving Baltic children to Siberian holiday camps for fattening up. All at a great expense to Russians. Very ungrateful.
Sounds like a reversal of fortune for ethnic Russians to me.
Had me in the first half, not gonna lie 😂
As usual, there are two sides of the story.
There were a lot of people from other parts of Yugoslavia in Slovenia. Quite a lot of them didn't have their legal status settled. Some speculated with benifits, they lived and worked in Slovenia, but had their residence in other places for the benifits an taxes.
I personally know a case of a married couple where a man had his residence in Slovenia and his wife had her residence somewhere else just to collect the benifits of separate life, but in real life they lived together. At the independence of Slovenia they calculated their options, they had the option for his wife to apply for citizenship in Slovenia, but they calculated, thinking that in the case something goes wrong here, we can move there. Subsequentially, he had Slovenian citizenship, his wife was ''erased''.
Another case I know is a case of my friend. Her parents moved to Slovenia, worked there, had a family, lived as normal people do. But they registered the residence of their youngest daughter with their parents in the other part of Yugoslavia for benifits. She didn't even realize she didn't have residence in Slovenia.
After independence there was a deadline to register residence which was a condition to get citizenship. She was young and oblivious and she didn't get her papers in order. Consequentially, her parents who moved to Slovenia got their citizenship automatically, their daughter, my friend, who was born in Slovenia, was ''errased''. It took her many years and effort to get her rightful citizenship.
I don't condone our government for doing what they did, problem, for me, is how they resolved the problem. There were cases where ''errasing'' was justified, in some cases it was not. In most cases it was pure speculations and calculations (going wrong and blaming others), in some cases it was misunderstanding, or, sometimes, pure human errors. Each case should be processed individually.
In 1990, Slovenia wanted to reform Yugoslavia into a modern, democratic multiethnic state, but due to nationalism and mismanagement coming from the other republics, they had no other choice than announcing their independence.
Im slovenian but im ashamed that our goverment did this to these people. Noone deserves to be "erased" and so what if they did not get citizenship in time. Thats just evil.
Thank you. Slovenia is a wonderful country in so many ways. But this was certainly one of its darker chapters. It has been amazing to read comments from some people condemning those who didn’t apply in time. They forget that it was a very different time, before the internet. It was also a period when the region was descending into war. There were all sorts of reasons why people might not have applied in time. I give the Brexit example. Even with years of warning about the need to apply for settled status in Britain, hundreds of thousands still failed to meet the deadline. That didn’t mean that they all refused to accept Brexit. It meant that a lot of people aren’t aware of things for a variety of reasons, including illness and mental health issues.
Anyone who had a permanent residence in Slovenia at the time of the break-up of Yugoslavia was able to apply for citizenship. Citizenship in the former Yugoslavia was twofold: republican and Yugoslav. In 1991, no one set any conditions for acquiring citizenship other than residence. No other country has granted citizenship in such an easy way. Ignorance in acquiring rights such as citizenship does not excuse anyone. Everyone had the opportunity to learn that they only have to submit an application that will be automatically approved. Regardless of nationality, language, work status and other personal circumstances. The entire public was informed about this in all media: newspapers, TV, radio, all administrative and state bodies. In the 21st century, probably everyone can read, but if they don't, they can listen and ask… The European Court of Human Rights was never informedof the actual circumstances in Slovenia in 1991.
I can absolutely assure you that the ECHR was perfectly aware of the circumstances. In fact it’s bizarre to even otherwise. This is not some joke court. It is the highest such legal body in Europe, filled by leading legal minds. And do you serious think that the Slovenian Government wouldn’t have laid out the full details of its position?
@@JamesKerLindsay Unfortunately, the Slovenian government has focused exclusively on legal facts, not factual facts. The real facts were: the citizenship fee was less than 2 beers (unique in Europe) at the time of a formal application. Citizenship was granted to all those who applied for it above. The application had already been formally written, everyone just entered personal data in it and signed it (the second unique in Europe). If it was for those who immigrated to Slovenia for economic reasons - Slovenia was the first in the former Yugoslavia in economic terms and development and wages, etc. pride greater than simply signing the application for citizenship of the Republic of Slovenia, then even God could not help them then. I repeat: the only condition was permanent residence. Anyone in their right mind would just lick their fingers at such a grant of citizenship…
Slovenska vlada se je na žalost skoncentrirala izključno na pravna dejstva, ne na dejanska dejstva. Dejanska dejstva so bila: pristojbina za državljanstvo je znašala ob formalni prošnji manj kot sta stala 2 piva (unikum v Evropi). Državljanstvo so dobili popolnoma vsi, ki so zanj vložili zgoraj navedeno vlogo. Vloga je bila že formalno napisana, vsak je vanjo samo vpisal osebne podatke in jo podpisal (drugi unikum v Evropi). Če je bil pri tistih, ki so se zaradi ekonomskih razlogov priselili v Slovenijo - Slovenija je bila v bivši Jugoslaviji prva v ekonomskem pogledu in razvitosti in plačah itd. ponos večji od enostavnega podpisa na vlogi za državljanstvo Republike Slovenije, potem jim tudi Bog takrat ni mogel pomagati. Ponavljam: edini pogoj je bil stalno bivališče. Vsak pri zdravi pameti bi si ob takem podeljevanju državljanstva samo obliznil prste…
History lessons with the president of serbia himself lol
Good video, keep it up mang! I love your take on geopolitics, I'm such a dork for this stuff...
Thanks. Me too! :-)
it is lie! 99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
To make it easier for you to imagine how things work: Slovenia's working ethics, organization, enviroment awareness, mentality, culture, economy, safety vs other ex Yugoslav republic is like we are from the another planets (like day and night). Slovenians are almost like Austrians, meanwhile others are way closer to orient in all possible ways.
Or comparing high developed North Italy (Fiat, Ferrari, AC Milan, Juventus, Cortina d' Ampezzo, high fashion, San Remo, Milano) vs poor Sicily/Calabria in South Italy.
or comparing Mussollini with TITO
YOU FORGOT MARADONA,S NAPOLI
@@Just_another_Euro_dude Yes, i mean, Slovenia could have all of that if we also sold our asses off to China and Russian oligarchs/corrupt western billionaires and let them do whatever they want. 98% of what you've listed is foreign investment, (especially Montenegro from what i've heard is basically owned jointly by Russian oligarchs and China at this point) specifically because of the ''wild west'' status of those countries where if you have enough money anything goes. I have Bosnian friends and many friends from the Balkans in general, i've heard the stories of when they go for a visit. When they get stopped by the police and almost any infraction under the sun can be forgiven by offering the policemen 50€. And yes, we have a nice basketball team, but we also have world class skiers, hockey players and olympic athletes. And yes, i live 2km from the Italian border, i am part Italian and Austrian myself, i've been across most of Italy, and do you want to know why the south is more scenic TODAY (it wasn't in the past)? Because all the trash migrated from the south to the north and ruined the north. Milano is still a beautiful city, but it's ruined by the Maroccans for instance scamming you on every corner. The port of Monfalcone is basically little Bangladesh at this point. I'm old enough to have seen the old north Italy and i choose to remember it as it was, not the abomination it has become.
Slovenia was always the smartest...
Clearly not. Allthough a minority, nationalistic serbs still hold massive power
All 25,000 "erased" would be Slovenian citizens if they would applicated in time, simple as that. But they didn't, they calculated or refused it.
Over the years when they've seen oustanding progress of Slovenia and other republics going down the to...t, they suddenly changed their mind.
Sorry, but that is not true for everyone. While some may have been lazy, or hedging their bets, many others could have been left out for other reasons, such as poor education, mental health issues, out of the country. The U.K. has had a settlement scheme in place fir several years and while millions applied it is still felt that several hundred thousand missed it. Let’s not forget many came to Slovenia with few qualifications. It would show a lot more compassion and decency to accept that this was a stain on Slovenia’s otherwise good reputation and move on. Denialism is always the trait of nationalists and actually does more harm to a country’s reputation than admitting it was a tragic error of judgement and that the country is sorry.
agreed
@@JamesKerLindsay There is no point of explaining to these people. Serbia should have never allow to Slovenia, nor to Croatia to be with us Serbs in a common state. I'd really to see what would have happened to those two if Serbia never accepted them in the past.
@@JamesKerLindsay Better nationalist than globalist.
There's a difference between being lazy and being a traitor. Eastern Europe is a powder keg.
The whole "erased" affair was terrible and an absolute whammy on part of the Slovenian government back in the day.
I agree. What’s so depressing is ten number of Slovenes (most probably not even born at the time) trying to defend it, even though the Slovenian Supreme Court and the ECHR ruled it was a violation of human rights.
@@JamesKerLindsay Very very true.
this video is pointless they had a deadline and they missed it i can assure you that it wasn't about where they are from but more about if they support Slovene independence or if they prefer yugoslavia if that was the case there would not be as many people from the former republics in Slovenia today
edit: just to be clear i don't support or agree with what they did to these people who failed to apply i think they should have been given another chance to get the citizenship
So, what is your point then? The deadline was extremely short. The U.K. gave EU citizens several years to apply for settled status and several hundred thousand still missed it. Slovenia gave them just a few months. And it isn’t just about laziness or support for Yugoslavia. Many were poorly educated. Others may have had mental health issues. Try to show some compassion.
@@JamesKerLindsay you made this video with ill intend to attack slovenia for something they resolved already just so you can make slovenia look bad
Absolute rubbish. I know Slovenia well. I have been many times. But I make videos on international conflicts and independence issues. Slovenia is marking the 30th anniversary of its independence from Yugoslavia and so now was a good time to explore an important issue that arise from that time that few people know about, but was important and deserves attention. Get over the conspiracy theories that I have it in for Slovenia. I have better things to do with my time than wage individual vendettas against countries! :-) Again, stop deflecting.
@@JamesKerLindsay deflecting what? i just tell what i see and it is my opinion it is not fact
@@JamesKerLindsay my point is you are making a problem out of a non problem to make slovenia look bad i feel saddened reading this comments of people saying they lost respect for slovenia and bullshit like that for a problem resolved in the courts already but i don't think you get my point of view so there is no point in an comment
In fairness to the majority. I worked for a very large corporation. We would go out of our way to provide the safest possible places to work in and yet there would always be people who would not want to follow a simple path of action or instruction either bc, they don’t care or their thoughts take them away from the importance of following an instruction and then blame everyone else for their lack of taking responsibility for their own actions. Also if you had previously committed crimes against the people of the state, then I would have thought that the state might not want to have you as a new citizen. Wouldn’t you think that would make sense in a peaceful society???
Very very informative indeed. It also shows how ruthless some "So called governments" can be, showing a total disregard for human suffering. Plus points for the EU court of justice for acting in the interests of these unfortunates.
you were not in Slovenia and wars which happened so be silent about.
Everyone could be a slovenian but some didn't want to be.
99.99% of this peoples were simply calculating that communist Yugoslav army will win. Many if not most of them even left Slovenia but came back years latter because life and especially velfare benefits including pensions are few times higher in Slovenia then in the rest of ex Yugoslavia!!!!!!!!
I think “Yugoslav” was just an umbrella term for all of the nations + ethnic minorities who have been living in that country. People were simply proud of that country but in reality, everyone was affiliating with their own national and even regional identity. For example, I live in Vojvodina and despite being Serbs, many of us here call ourselves Vojvodinians (or “Vojvođani” in serbian). And nationalist politicians have effectively destroyed Yugoslavia and I have to admit, I see it everyday how the main leaders such as Milošević, Tuđman, Izetbegović, Kučan are all despised in their countries and blamed for all the mess. And rightfully so. But that was the time of economic crisis, attempt of democratization of Yugoslavia which miserably failed, rise of nationalism, destructive wars and mafia with a large connection to the government. It was unsustainable.
Thanks Ivana. Great points. Identity is a complex thing. And it was especially so in Yugoslavia. Vojvodina is a truly fascinating region, for all sorts of reasons. I know it very well indeed and have spent a lot of time there. In fact, I am writing this comment from just outside of Novi Sad! :-)
@@JamesKerLindsay Heheh yeah, Vojvodina is very unique in its diverse population and culture. I live in Subotica and I am some 8-9 km away from the Hungarian border. I also have Hungarian and Slovak neighbors. One can only wish to have people like them to be there for you whenever you need something and vice versa of course. Have fun in NS
@@LucicIvana Thanks. It’s really nice to be back. I have a soft spot for Vojvodina. :-) I passed by Subotica earlier as we drove down from Vienna.
You tend to emphasize the "very large majority" part, even tho it was a very small minority of 1% who became erased. Which is irrelevant anyways, since the number of people shouldn't matter when rights are being taken away. But they were given a clear choice. It was either becoming a Slovene citizen or a liability - a potential excuse for the Yugoslav/Serbian army to claim our lands as their ethnic territories, like they did in Croatia and Bosnia, which resulted in a terrible war with genocides, and so on. So they had to erase them, but they could stay here. Also, ever since then, they have been given the option of becoming Slovene citizens again and again, but now they want money as reparations. You have to understand that nationalism, became a big issue in Yugoslavia in the 80s after Tito died, which is not an excuse but a perspective perhaps. Something had to be done. But I am curious, what is your proposed solution to this problem, if you have one?
I am sorry, but I don't understand the bias here. They immigrated and didn't want to become citizens, they should be glad they could stay. Luckily I am not a politician, hard to decide on this, what is the right thing to do.
Fortunately, two very highly qualified panel of judges - the Slovenian Supreme Court and the European Court of Human Rights - looked into this and decided that Slovenia had behaved improperly. They also offered up solutions, but the government resisted for nationalist reasons. This really isn’t a difficult problem. Slovenia violated their human rights and needed to fix it. And the right thing to do is follow the law and the international commitments Slovenia made to uphold human rights.
"You tend to emphasize the "very large majority" part, even tho it was a very small minority of 1% who became erased."
At 11:48 he says that the vast majority of Yugoslavians living in Slovenia did get citizenship so he is in no way saying it wasn't a small minority.
Imagine this was the worst thing to happen after Yugoslavia dissolved peacefully. Now it sounds horrible, but even this would be a heaven compared to what actually happened.
Did you say people were erased because they did not apply for citizenship even after given repeated opportunities? How can this be human rights abuse? Clearly these people did not agree with an independent Slovenia and identified as other than Slovenia.
these were people dancing in the streets and shouting how 'the YPA will fuck us up' when the 10 day war started
@@curseditem8354 what is YPA?
@@tillykelp6340 yugslav people's army
@@tillykelp6340 nope, he never said that. And it had nothing to do with any citizenship.