For being new to TTRPGs you seem to have a really good understanding of the core issues with modern systems vs properly made systems. Kudos to you. WoTC is trash.
It seems the big Table Top companies have mirrored the business practices of AAA video game companies. I surprised I didn’t see it sooner… but happy to be where we are.
Honnestly, I've been playing for 4 years and always hated dndbeyond and started hating dnd quite rapidly as well. They made the hobby seem expensive while taking so much space in medias that they look like the only system for most newbies.... and all that for a system that is not even that well designed.. When it's so obvious you dont need to be an old school player to notice it
@@FamilyTableTop I own all three and love the content, though I haven't deployed much of the content on my table yet. I'm currently running a classic DnD adventure from the early 80s--The Temple of Elemental Evil, with Shadowdark. That's taking most of my game time. However, this Friday we're taking a break I'm going to run the gauntlet from Cursed Scroll #3--Hoard of the Sea Wolf King. I'm also writing an adventure that will use a bunch of the content from #3. Each Cursed Scroll is pretty tasty.
Old quote from E. Gary Gygax, and I always try to revisit it occasionally, and re-apply it to my AD&D 2nd Edition ongoing campaign: “It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule books upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game." You are the arbiter of your game's world, you alone interpret its limits and extent.
At this point, it doesn't matter the whole "play it your way" doesn't mean anything, it's too late and there's no point in holding onto something that isn't bringing the amount of joy from TTRPGs like it should. Moving on to other games is never a bad thing and people putting that down in exchange for the old wisdom of Gygax isn't helpful. Embrace new things.
Gygax other than when he was defending his TSR shares, was a proponent of Folk D&D. Take what you like from different games and make your dream game. Those are the tenets of the OSR.
@@FamilyTableTop no no no, thank YOU. We need more newcomers(especially influencers like yourself) who can see each of these games for what they are and, more importantly, what they aren’t.
@@Wesley_Youre_a_Rabbit I’m still learning here, but my goal is to help families find good games to play with each other- and it’s really hard to recommend DnD with how aggressively monetized the game is…
@@FamilyTableTop I left a top-level comment … you have NOOOO idea how hard it was to focus on just one aspect if the value for me of a simple system I can keep track of as a GM and not launch into a five page rant that begins with, "You will own nothing and be happy." And continued with, "But while we are working on boiling that frog, here's a bunch of crap you need to buy right now that will ultimately not really solve the ultimate problem, which is that you haven't given us enough of our money yet." *sigh*
Sold all my 5e books a couple of years ago. Best decision ever. We have options - lots of options - and right now the OSR provides all the tools we need for years and years of gaming.
@@FamilyTableTop I have three: 1. Old Schools Essentials: Advanced Fantasy; 2. The Black Hack, 2E (specially Fleaux!, By this Axe I Hack, and Black Sword Hack); 3. Knave, 2E.
I just watched for a second time. I also was sucked down the money hole of wizards, buying everything I could, thinking it would make my 5e game more enjoyable. I also, am a fool. I crowdfunded shadowdark, and its been sitting unopened, making excuses that I need to prepare for my next game, I didnt have the time. Well I have the time now. Please make more shadowdark content. Tutorials on making characters, maybe a run thru if your group is ok with that. You keep putting out content, Ill continue to watch. Thanks for the wake up call!
Absolutely. I will make a video about the book in the next few days and explain what I did to get started. Thank you so much for your encouragement and kindness.
I understand entirely. D&D of Christmas past allowed the DM to be a Judge. IE the boss and arbiter of situations. This is not expected anymore. You're not expected to ever deny options. You're not expected to even set options. I tried to run a game of 5E once using canonically permitted modifications. Specifically, eliminating "skills" from the game entirely. It's in the DMG. Chapter 9, second page if memory serves. It did not go well. This is because DMs aren't the Judges anymore. In 1994, I ran a Dark Sun game. Nobody asked to play something from The Complete Book of Humanoids that just came out or even a Cleric from the core, because it was understood that Athas has a specific set of races and classes that envokes a specific flavor. If somebody wanted to they'd have a hard fought battle to get it to happen and likely I'd still have said no to maintain the integrity of the fictional world. Then they would have sucked it up and played something else. It doesn't make sense for a triton to be in the game on a dying, desert planet. This is also why we didn't see a 5E Dark Sun, because they'd have to tell GMs to limit player options and that's against the company byline. WotC wants you to buy ALL the books and use ALL the books ALL the time. Another setting came out in the 90s called Planescape. It's novelty was that you could play any race across the planes. A Thri-kreen in the same party as a triton, githzerai and goblin. Since this is EVERY 5E game now, there is no novelty to it. Releasing the Planescape boxed set for 5E was hilarious because every game of 5E is already Planescape. I assume the books are rather empty.
That shift from seeing the DM as the referee and him or her establishing what does and does not exist in his or her homebrew setting to a more player-facing approach with more and more options just to sell more and more books is ultimately what drove me away from Wizards and the current official version of the game. It doesn't feel like D&D no more.
@@Frustwell it's even worse than that, as the mentality has invaded the culture of the game. 3pp releases follow it as well. I bought Primeval Thule years ago and lamented when there were sections on including what should be simply forbidden elements: dwarves, elves, paladins, etc. If it had the balls to say 'humans and atlanteans only' the setting would have actually had a flavor. But instead it's Planescape, just like every other 5e setting. Homogenous inoffensive least-common-denominator pleasing gray goo. The gray might be a little lighter or darker here and there, but frankly the modern game is starving for some color.
@@Eron_the_Relentless I knew the moment Wizards started intoning "the multiverse" over and over like some mantra in their promotional videos that we were going to see the homogenization of campaign settings. In order to make players feel as if every book is worth its inflated cost and is going to be useful at every table they have achieved mediocrity. D&D can't pass into others' hands soon enough.
Considering that DMs are (supposedly) so hard to find, this really should not be the case. If I'm running a game, I'm running the game. If a certain race/ class/ whatever doesn't exist in my game, that's just how it is. If a player says "yeah, but I want to play 'X'" then I say "ok, well lots of other campaigns will allow that, but that's not the game I am playing." To me, a player demanding that the GM change/ add things in their campaign is like being invited to dinner and telling the host what they *must* serve. Not happening. It's Dungeon Master, not Dungeon Servant.
I feel your pain. Yes being a DM is a lot of work. And involves selecting what add ons you will allow in your game. Perhaps OSR may be your style? Currently playing Dragonslayer rpg by Greg Gillespie and loving it.
@@FamilyTableTop it is a OSR version that uses the mechanics of Basic/Expert rules withe the best parts of 1e AD&D(races, class...spells etc). Characters are not super heroes with a character sheet of powers. Its more old school where you have to survive by wit....skill and some caution. A challenging game with a beautiful core book.
I often feel like an "old man yelling at clouds", I agree with everything you stated. Now days I just try not to be too cynical, people will play what they want to play, but I do I admire your integrity in regards to making recommendations. Respect. ...resisting the urge to pile on with a litany of WotC crimes against the community. Is,... really hard.
It isnt just old man yelling at cloud. These lite fast games are exploding while Witches (& Hipsters) of the Shore has decided to drop the books soon and already fired the books crew.
@@joelcaron8291 I still don’t fully understand THAC0 as a system, but I get the premise - that being said, I do agree that rules lite is far more fun to me.
I agree that D&D 5E is not a DM-friendly system and that there are much better systems out there for any type of game you want to run. However, the main thing it's got going for it is the massive community. There is value in being part of a larger group and being able to share and appreciate memes, homebrew, and having lots of discussions and arguments over a common thing. After my current 5E campaign is done, I plan on starting a campaign using a different system, but I plan on staying connected to D&D for the community. I might join a D&D game as a player or run the occasional one-shot.
It is interesting that games with skill lists can limit options because the player see's the list and thinks that is all they can do, whereas those games that do not have lists promotes more inventive solutions. Which is a shame cause most of the games I love have skill lists.
AD&D (known as 1E these days) had the original PHB and DMG, and along with the MM incorporated ‘the rules’. Everything else was optional rules (unearthed arcana, the survival guides), modules, campaign settings or monster books, the majority of the material being adventures and campaign material by far. Deities and Demigods was a bit of a combo book, having rules for clerics and resurrection but also info on mythologies and stats for gods (the ultimate monsters). During the decade or so of 1E there was a minimum of ‘rules bloat’ and a clear focus on material to provide a varied play experience and to encourage the players to create their own campaigns. There was no need and little request for new rules or rules changes…until TSR decided a 2nd edition was needed to ‘clean up’ the rules (and take Gary’s name off the core books).
@@FamilyTableTop oh boy, the TSR management feud of the 80s is legendary, too much to go into here. Supposedly Gary was just in the way of all the corporate mismanagement that the rest of the staff wanted to do, but that’s mostly a one sided version. There’s a lot of videos detailing it on YT, and they’d do a better job presenting it than I would.
It's a wild feeling when you start discovering that there are games out there that let you buy one book and you have the entire system. I arrived at a lot of the same conclusions you did about the game and also headed for greener pastures. My original issue with 5E was trying to add rules from different systems and games to make dungeon crawling and exploration more interesting. At a certain point I realized I was just developing an entirely different game and the problems I had with the game spiralled out from there. I know people try sell modular design as a feature but there are so many games that have mastered what they intend on delivering and do it concisely and effectively. I look forward to seeing where your TTRPG explorations take you.
@@FamilyTableTopMy current fixation for campaign style games is Savage Worlds. That said, I’ve been playing short 5 session adventures in games like Mork Borg, Pirate Borg, Cy-Borg, and recently, I’d started running a mech game in a post apocalyptic setting called Salvage Union. It’s a little complicated, but the complication is all on the players and them building their mechs. Levels are simple, but the parts to build mechs with are less so.
Enjoyed your videos! My Friday night tabletop group at my house each week has played ShadowDark for a year and a half and everyone loves it, and comes back enthusiastically every week! We rotate DMs, and I am the current one. SD is a simple system and my players have been from D&D 1E up to 5E, and several complete noobs. We all enjoy it. We have used the official classes, online creations, and homebrew. It is so versatile.... wanna add muskets and play pirates and musketeers? No problem. Fast combat, immersive roleplay, and great times! That's where we are now. Our campaign world keeps expanding. All the best with your tabletop, which is the best way to play.... in-person with friends and family! 5E has become a video game, especially with all the online play now... including WOTCs new VTT coming. Break from the power cord once a week and just have plain fun!
The best thing about D&D, and all TTRPGs, is that you literally need nothing other than maybe pencil, paper, and dice, to play. You can make everything else up if you want. If you don't want to go that barebones, then get ahold of the PHB, DMG, and MM of the edition that you fancy (or another RPG entirely) and play with just that. This is why WotC does the things you point out, they know we don't actually need them so they try to convince us that we do need them. I'm pretty much going OSR, looking to pick up the Basic/Expert sets and maybe some modules. I'm also inclined towards AD&D and it's modules. Thinking of trying some other RPGs as well, but I need premade modules because I just don't have the time to create adventures.
Correct, WotC is greedy and anti-consumer. They designed the game to maximize profits instead of fun. I think that supporting that company is stupid and immoral. It is sad how "game as a live service" has been used mainly greedily. Regarding Ishanekon: World Shapers (my own TTRPG), I am dipping into that design way but without trying to exploit the users. I make monthly updates, adding new features, rebalancing the game, and more. This allows me to design things "recklessly" since I can easily fix them later without worrying about printed content I sold. This is one of the main reasons why I could design so many features as a one-man company. But it is not exploitative since the updates are 100% free like the rest of the game.
@@FamilyTableTop On my website. I cannot post the link since RUclips automatically filters out comments with links, but you should be able to find it by googling Ishanekon: World Shapers.
They didn’t do any of that. They made an excellent game that brings people lots of joy. They didn’t even raise prices on the books in 10 years, which is bad business.
@@hawkname1234 Question: Are you well-informed about TTRPGs in general? Because this does not sound like something someone would say who has any experience with TTRPGs outside of D&D. There is no shame in that. I was trapped in that same bubble four years ago.
@@hawkname1234 are you saying that you think WotC is making business decisions that are “customer first”? Do you mean that believe WotC are acting in a pro-consumer fashion?
This lesson doesn't work for me cause I've been playing for 5 years I'm stopping dnd now after spending atleast 1000 dollars luckily mine was mostly 3rd party content only wotc books I own are players handbook, dungeon master guide, monster manual, and icewindale
I grew bored of running 5e. It's tedious and relegates the GM to rolling dice and reading results. I always got lost in the math and resolution when I was the GM and unable to narrate the fun fantasy elements of the game or combat. It's my least favorite game to run.
That’s a good point - I think I’d like to take the maneuvers system from Knave and add it to Shadowdark - but I get worried that my players would stop doing interesting things in combat.
I'm not sure that spell cards and character sheet binders are good examples of problems with D&D. Spell write ups and stat blocks have always been on the longer side and sheet binders are completely optional things. A player could just as easily write the title of the spell and the page number to point them to the write up in the book without spending additional money. You don't need to opt in on new content, you can just as easily use only the PHB to run D&D as you can use Shadowdark to run an entire campaign.
This is the first video of yours I have seen. You may be my new favorite tabletop youtuber. As a person who loves to buy and read the books, I'm a sucker for when a game has a LOT of books to read, but if I'm honest with myself, the games I have the most fun with are the ones that are easy to get started and play, and the ones that demand less of my money.
@@FamilyTableTop I have a Starfinder game that I run for some friends, but we're all old and busy, so it's maybe once every other month. But I have also run 5e, Call of Cthulhu, Ashen Stars, Forbidden Lands, and the Alien RPG. Starfinder is the easiest one to convince people to play because it's a d20 game, but I like Ashen Stars a lot for Scifi
@FamilyTableTop I like it. It's sleek and quick. Sometimes character skills can be vague. But it's meant to be a more narrative game, so the focus isn't on explicitly laying out rules to make skills predictable in combat.
From someone who’s played a lot of editions. When I got back into playing for my daughter I got both box sets and the 3 D&D books, those were a mistake. So I went backwards and ran Keep on the Boardlands from B\X, watched Prof DM, and remembered the old rule. Keep it simple stupid.
@@FamilyTableTop She did. I wanted to show her how “Stranger Thing” D&D was actually played. We had a table of ten players and 5e combat would have been extremely problematic. Simpler systems like B/X, Becmi, or new games ICRPG, and Shadowdark allow for more players.
5e is just the entry point to the hobby. Same as Monopoly to boardgames. Don't get stuck with 5e, get out there, find a better game for you and your players.
One more thing, however THIS is the most IMPORTANT one, this is something that will help you. You. The DM. Are ALSO a player in YOUR game. You are just a different player, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ALSO have fun while playing your game. You should look at what you want out of a game and try to adjust it towards it, balance it how you like it and talk about the changes to your players and if they agree with your ideas. You can change "anything" you want as long as you remeber this if things go bad. It's okay to admit you've made a mistake and tell the people in the mistake that: " hey, this doesn't work, I need to adjust things, can we change X back or ignore Y change I made?"
That all makes sense, I often have a tendency to martyr myself for our game sessions since I’m just so happy that everyone is here playing a game with us.
I hadn’t made the connections between bloated game design and sale of solutions, but it has been woefully obvious that the game is unnecessarily complicated for a very long time. Same thing with P2E. I drastically prefer other systems to the point that these main stream games are becoming very uncomfortable for me to engage with unfortunately.
D&D was first and deserves appreciation and recognition. But the game they are selling us now is nothing like the one Gygax and Arneson played in their day. And I most definitely do not just mean mechanics.
Glad to see a new member in... Well, let's call "Self-aware Inn" due to "community" being taken over Hasbro's PR slang. ;3 As a fellow ttrpg player (I rather avoid DM/player recognition, as I explained to my bros that I am here also to play, not to run nor ruin their entertainment) here's a good point : actual play is based on speaking , not mechanics or preparations. Latter is just for easing the decision making or lighten the amount of pressure set on your brain (ie creativity, possible relations of NPC, who and what could do etc etc). Thus RPG session is a chat, a lovely and lenghty discourse between players
@@FamilyTableTop My pleasure! As I wrote before - there are more important things than mere game of make-belive taken to "adult level" of tone/gameplay. And reminding something obvious... Oh boy, I've learned that whence I was over 18, but I wish I knew that when I was 8 and my father took me to his farm, where he was just working, leaving me there just to talk about something. Litterally anything. Back then I didn't know - now I wish I talked more, despite having us both in good shape and relations ;) Ie. being reminded that you are loved and taken care of (in honest manner) is really calming.
Nice analysis. And the comparison of WotC's approach with D&D to the live service (video) games business model is valid. I think that'll become even a worse of a problem the more WotC is going to focus on their digital distribution via D&D Beyond. What D&D (WotC) is good for, like you discussed in another video, is bringing new people into the hobby. Some will stay their many, like you, will eventually discover, try out and switch to other games. The Indie-TTRPG scene is so rich and diverse. And there's not only stuff for the fantasy genre. There's a whole and literal multiverse for us to explore and have fun within.
WoTC is only interested in getting kids into their walled garden and keeping people away from exploring other RPG's. The marketing brainwashing and attacks on D&D founders, old school, OSR, OGL etc. is disgusting. Anyone thinking their part is helping anything are exceptionally naive. They are trying to kill the TTRPG hobby and replace it with their digital game. They are the worst steward the official brand could have.
@@FamilyTableTop I can at least try to the best of my understanding. OSR = Old-School Renaissance/Revival/Retro: games that try to mimic old-school D&D as closely as possible in terms of rules and play-style , tone and vibe OSE = Old-School Essentials Classic or Advanced Fantasy: is in its core B/X D&D or AD&D 1e respectively. I.e. it's a true retro-clone of the original editions of D&D, and therefore just one of many OSR games, yet, probably one of the closest to the original. NSR = New-School Revolution (I guess): are game trying to emulate the play-style/tone/vibe of old-school D&D but with a more modern rules, and therefore less a clone and more re-imagining. So it's a special kind of OSR where the authors adapt/invent rules to match their intent and modern preferences. I am not sure but I think, Shadowdark could be understood as a NSR type of game. All this may be subject to interpretation and other people may disagree. Everyone doing so please feel free to share your perspective.
Wizards reminds you of EA? Well now they are "all in on digital products", D&D will literally BE a video game, with all the microtransactions, pre order junk, digital currency, all the evil shenanigans. Oh and you will all need a laptop to play, no more books and dice. Everyone looking at screens around a table.
Pathfinder 2e takes care of a lot of these problems. Except for the long spells. Sometimes they have very long spells. But the spells are organized so it’s not too bad
My favorite RPG is Champions. It's a point build RPG originally made to run superhero games. Buy the rules and you never need to buy another product if you're willing to build everything yourself. (Or download stuff from public sources) It was first published in 1981 and I'm still playing it.
Break the chain! That seems to be the main theme of your video and I agree 100%. WOTC is looking on making D&D a digital ecosystem, and it is our right to opt out. And Shadowdark is a great OSR-adjacent system. And look if you look into Basic Fantasy RPG, you'll find more free stuff (adventures, character classes, etc...) than you can ever use. Most of it can be easily ported into Shadowdark with little to no conversion. Enjoy and keep us posted. The family that games together, stays together.
@@FamilyTableTop OSE is Old School Essentials, a near clone of the early 1980's Basic/Expert sets. OSR is the old school revival, a large group of games with an old school design philosophy (simpler mechanics, often compatible with each other, no huge skill or feat list). If you are playing Shadowdark, it's a nice blend between 5E and OSR type games. I've played in games and it works great.
Have to agree with you completely. I think your Assassins Creed example was spot on. With all the extra books WotC sells they have made a huge convoluted mess. And as you correctly noted, the game was designed like that from the start as a predatory way to cash in on their customers. I was part of that for a while, but I have walked away in favor of smaller indie companies and the OSR.
I've been feeling similar, I started with 5th edition d&d but I just really dislike how characters feel basically the same, there no real danger with how death saves work, advantage/disadvantage and critical hits just rolling another die doesn't feel satisfying most of the time as well as combat taking too long.
@@LeggoSF Combats that are "too long" is something you're never really going to avoid in any TTRPG, at least not in any that have any degree of activity in combat. Actions take time to resolve, even if they're always successful, because they take time to describe. Actions take time to decide, because TTRPG combats are more complex than checkers, and most people even take a lot of time to make their moves in checkers. Lots of things tend to happen in TTRPG combats, because everyone wants to be involved and a combat in which only one person acts is boring. Because lots of things happen, there are lots of actions, and because there are lots of actions, there's a lot of thinking, a lot of strategizing, and a lot of description. And that's before we even talk about rules or numbers or record-keeping. Long combat is something you just have to accept as part of the medium. The best you can do is make combat mechanics as painless as possible and make everyone's choices as interesting and engaging as possible. If combat isn't engaging, it'll feel slow no matter how quickly it's over. If combat is engaging, it'll feel fast no matter how long it takes or how many Excel spreadsheets you need to reference. This is where 5e fails hard. Once you see behind the mechanical curtain and understand how unthreatening most combats are, how little tactical difference there is between characters, and how unlikely permadeath is, all system-derived tension vanishes. Pretty much any edition of D&D does better in this regard than 4e and 5e. If you like having substantive mechanical differentiation between characters, you'll probably prefer 3.5 over other editions. As the sheer amount of material available can be overwhelming, I'd recommend keeping to just the core books plus _Tome of Battle, Expanded Psionics Handbook,_ and _Magic Item Compendium_ for a long while. If mechanical differentiation isn't a big thing for you, I'd recommend BECMI using any of the many modernizing hacks to make it use ascending AC and saves. Some OSR systems also do pretty well, as does Pathfinder 2e. Then we can get into all the games that look boring like D&D, like Shadowrun and Call Of Cthulhu and Legend of the Five Rings. Just stay away from anything built on the "Powered by the Apocalypse" system, as its entire raison d'etre is to pit the GM against the other players.
I kinda didn't realize it until you said it, but yeah, DnD 5e is like a video game and that's what I kinda like about it and what I've been looking for in TTRPGS as a magic-wielding player. I grew up with Baldur's Gate, Neverwinte Nights, Icewind Dale, etc. so that was my gateway to fantasy and that's what I kinda gravitate towards. I like it because it makes me feel like a superhero, but I do see that the way DnD is built may limit player creativity. So I'm open to exploring other TTRPGS, and I'm new still, so I'm curious what's out there.
I switched back to 3.X editions, and it turns out that you can run that in the Classic Style really well. Classic Style is what OSR claims to be doing with one exception: Classic Style is about everyone following all the rules and proceedures and OSR is about rejecting rules and proceedures to have on the spot rulings and streamlining the game. I'm also working on my own version of 3.X so I can lighten the load on the rules just a little.
Also, I think it's okay if players walk all over my encounters. I don't use CR, I use a sandbox. There is no story, only situations and dungeons. Story is emergent. If something is killing the players, they know to run away and do something else.
You don't seem to know how right you are. With WotC's move to "all in on digital" the things you see will accelerate. Game concepts will be half baked on purpose, because if you use the digital version you'll get the patches.
@@BobMcDowell that’s sinister. What a nasty company… all of this marketing and monetization of gaming systems seems to be the way of things now… even the small RUclips creators are releasing Kickstarters with 800$ bundles…
Our group will not be going forward from D&D 5e in fever of other TTRPG creators like DC20 and Dragon hart. We are also looking to create our own set of rules, this way the group has a vested interest in the game and how it is played. Over the last 5 years we have played two 1st to 20th level campaigns and found that it is hard now to keep the interest going. we are now looking to play shorter campaigns that only do 4 levels at a time with a break were we would play 4 levels of another system with each 4 levels being a campaign in itself and not just a scenario
@@FamilyTableTop I am currently just started testing the DC20 system from the You Tubs The Dungeon Coach, and my son is trying you-tubes Matt Covils system. We were also looking at youtubss "Critical Rolls Dragon hart system. I believe that all three believe in the TTRPG community rather than lining there pockets, but isn't that how D&D started. we talked about writing our own rules last week and putting them up on the net for people to adapt to whatever they want.
After a few of these videos, it seems like the current state of the D&D system just isn't going to work for how you and/or your players approach a game. Nothing wrong with that. Play what works for you. My feedback would be there is no such thing as "meta" DMing. ALL DM/GMs are meta. It's inherent in the role. If you're doing it well, it is seamless and everyone is having fun and not noticing. If you're still learning how to do it then it might be kludgy and feel like less fun. The game is definitely monetized out the wazoo, so if that doesn't work for you, no shame in finding a system that does it for you. I will say I've never used any of the paraphernalia you showcased and neither have the the vast majority of people I've played with so I truly don't think it is needed, but it sure can be annoying if it's presented as critical to success. I'd also say that as a long time M:TG plyer, I'm not one to walk away just because of monetization concerns. Badly written modules? Sure. They've been making them for a very long time, sometimes they have been great, other times, not so much.
Amazing Tales RPG is a good example of how little actual rules you need to run a fun story sharing game. You can play with any form of made up characters, a d6 to add some randomness and you are golden.
It feels good to play a game that's made complete, and it feels especially good when I think, "the game designer could have made this part exploitable but they chose to give us the great version of this game."
We also play some old school tsr marvel super heroes. We use both heroclix and the marvel protocol figs. Every hero and villain is just 1 sheet with abilities.
I feel your pain. It's almost a bit of embarrassment... like falling for the same knock knock joke over and over. Just last year I finally got back into TTRPGs. I started collecting a few 5e books, and even gave WotC some money on Beyond. I should have known better... I quit Magic years ago because of those never-ending "expansions". I am hopeful that I have some valuable first-run cards in that box. As far as video games go, I'm hoping that Hello Games keeps up what they've been doing with No Man's Sky. Since the terrible launch in 2016, the company has made non-stop updates and upgrades and improvements and expansions... all for free. I picked up the game recently on sale for 20 bucks... and still got every single update. Their dedication to both their craft and players should be inspiration for game maker out there. Hopefully they keep it up and don't fall into the live service trap. Thanks for your info on Shadowdark. Not sure I'll ever get a chance to play it, but I plan to pick up the book soon nonetheless.
@@FamilyTableTop Thank you! I am in a D&D group at a local library, and a few of us play in a smaller setting too. There's a game store in town that I might look into for a Shadowdark game at some point. I have managed to curb the desire to buy into anything new recently... even paused my 19 year subscription to WoW! I'm enjoying your videos and getting a lot of good perspective. Thanks so much!
@@micahfloyd1974 thank you so much. Ugh… WOW, I did that for such a long time… that game was really hard to quit. How did you get yourself to stop playing? Your local game store has ongoing TTrpgs? Have you played in a game store before?
@@FamilyTableTop My local game store is called Guy on the Couch and just recently moved into a huge space... ironically it's an old gym. They always have lots of card at strategy games going on, but I'm not sure how the TTRPG sessions work. It might be a work in progress. I've never played in that setting before. I'm not sure I've totally quit WoW yet, but I found I was logging in and doing a lot of nothing. Then I got the latest Zelda game and I started playing less and less of everything else. No Man's Sky has also had the same effect. As a dad with limited play time, I find that I can't really enjoy more than one game at a time.
Another great video. I think I love your content for the same reasons you prefer certain games over others. It's more real it's not predatory and it's coming from a regular guy sharing his experiences. It's like what RUclips used to be 10-15 years ago.
Thank you. I appreciate the encouragement. Generally I would prefer to edit myself - cutting out all of my “ums” and stammering - it took me a while get over the idea of “perfect” videos. I think it came from watching more conversation content - now I really don’t enjoy the fast cutting videos. Anyways, thank you again.
Hey man, I am the same way. I have to tell myself no. I have way too many miniatures and 3D terrain. Knowing our weaknesses helps us make better decisions. You aren't a fool. You are passionate about things you enjoy. It is smart to quit playing games that causes you to struggle with purchasing every little thing. Prior to using DnD Beyond we just shared the book lol. I see the cards and folder are a great idea if that isn't feasible. Great video. In regards to the newer games not having so much buy in or whatever we want to call it, is that they haven't been around long enough to need more. Let them exist for 50 years and see if they are still content with making no more money because their game hasn't changed since inception. However, I do agree D&D is a little excessive and for people like you and me it causes a problem. Advanced D&D pushed out quite a lot of books too for back then. Things are easier and cheaper to publish now. But yes when you are the most popular (not necessarily the best) game around, then corporations are eventually going to exploit it.
I think you are correct- most companies are doing that thing Two Face talked about in Batman, “you either die a hero, or you live long enough to become the villain.”
I think there are valid reasons for designing spells the way you apparently dislike and it just shows that DND ain't for you and its good you found a more streamlined game and become aware that there are even more. might I suggest Dragonbane Mythic Bastionland Cairne Forbidden Lands The Broken Empires
If something player-base friendly is what you are looking for, you could a lot worse than Cairn. :) PDF is free, print copy is sold at cost, and the guy behind it (Yochai) is great. It's a low-powered fantasy dungeon game, super quick to pick up and teach. The entire rule book is like...25 pages? There are so many free and low cost but still good quality options out there. Rules and modules alike. Anyway, I hope Shadowdark suits you. Happy gaming!
Thank you. We had a chance to play MaisRitter for a couple hours today. It’s a similar system to Cairn. We were playing it with a younger child and she really caught on quickly - she really liked the character creation process as well. Have you ever run a campaign with some of those simpler game systems?
@@FamilyTableTop That sounds so fun! I tried playing Mausritter with a few nephews, and it very quickly went to chaos. I wasn't expecting them to resort so quickly to violence at everything! :'D Did you enjoy running it? With these types of games I've only run short scenarios.
@@cassidy944 I did enjoy running, but unneeded a little more time to prepare. Things also went off the rails for me as well, but for slightly different reasons.
@@FamilyTableTop I'm glad you enjoyed it even though it was a bit challenging. Finding the right amount of prep is so tricky! I feel like it's my white whale.
I ran 5e once....for 5 sessions.......never never again. Played it quite a bit, its ok to play, but running it is horrible imho. I'm all about BRP like Call of Cthulhu and Runequest etc. Those games are amazing to run. But there are so many games out there other than the microtransaction nightmare that is D&D
@@FamilyTableTop It is scary, thats one thing. A totally different experience from more traditional games like DnD. Your characters re squishy and vunerable, fighting against ancient enemies that can easily destroy them. The game is all about the investigation, the rp, the problem solving. It is a fantastic, and very [popular game. The starter set is an incredible place to start [really good value, you get a ton for your money]. They also have one of the most incredible campaigns ever written for a TTRPG [Masks of Nyarlathotep].
@@ElwoodShort thank you for sharing about Call of Cthulhu - I had been looking at the Starter sets for it and a few other games. I usually worry that the starter sets lack value. Thank you for telling me about Call of Cthulhu
@@FamilyTableTop Not wishing to come over as a salesman, but im a big Chaosium fan, their Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, and Pendragon Starter sets are absolutly fantastic value, crammed full of stuff. All great games as well.
A lot of these issues are the reason why I decided that 5e is more of a case by case situation with me, and if I do use any 5e parts, it's going to be *heavily* homebrewed where while it's using it's rules, it'll have something a bit more fun for me and the players once I found a group who was willing to try different systems but also will help me figure out tweaks of the classes I'm working on. And it's also why it won't be a full blown 5e game anymore as I may use Nimble for killing some of the convaluative stuff and use how Tales of the Valent does druids and rangers. But first I would probably be testing things with oneshots first to see if these ideas works because I do want to also test out the levelling system of Shadow of the Demon Lord as they also coming out with a version of their system where it's more pure fantasy instead of grimdark/horror fantasy themed. Multiclasses are more of a feature than an option in that one and some of the classes in the world I want to play with kinda weird as they don't follow 5e rules to the tea and may have to do some multiclassing. As much as I woud *love* to do that one world in Dungeon Crawl Classics.... that world isn't set up for the chaotic nature of the spells unfortantly as there's more of both a "hard" and "soft" magic system and Dungeon Crawl Classics kinda leans into hard of the "soft" magic system where you can get different effects if you roll certian things (no spell slots, but you can lose a spell if you get a 1-11 or so) So while the spells are "long" they're more because it's a table you roll and not because it's monitzation like what you're talking about. But going back to the point, DnD leans into the "Hard" Magic system where there's rules within rules and you have to follow those rules almost as if it's an science. The only way I can think around this is if I took 5e and maybe treat something like Druid spells like Wild Magic but that may get weird. I donno yet with that one, I'm still pulling ideas for that game while I'm running my DCC game for my players who are having a blast with the dangerous world of the Cursed World I use for DCC purely. (Now if the other world can work even better in Barbarians of Lumaria.... that may be an option, but again I may have to do a oneshot playtest to see if it works)
@@FamilyTableTop I haven't really done many play tests in the past as, like you, I'm actually pretty new to TTRPGS, but I've been stubborn and try and try again to figure out what I want out of my own games. I've maybe done one where it's been level 3 players, but that was my old game with a very wrong group. My current play test is more I'm coming in as a player and I'm testing out a homebrew class and everyone else had already been experienceing a far in game so I'm already starting at lvl 9 with my charater. I've done a Demos at a lvl 3 for DCC, but I've started play testing some of some combinding machanics from other DCC veriants at lvl 0 (Funnel) Because I was more testing the setting as a concept. I also played in a playtest to see if we wanted to do Spell points or spell slots or a combo at lvl 3 and 5 and there was going to be a test at 9 but that experiment ended for some personal reasons for some of the group. But if you want to know what *most* people do, So far from what I understand For Dungeon Crawl Classics, 5e, And most systems, playtesting things are usually lvl 3 or higher. DCC you can do some play testing at lvl 1 and 2 because at least you get the start of things right away since it's the Funnel you have nothing since you're a peasent. For me personally, I woud be asking my playtesters what levels they would like to start at to see how things work so I can work around the story for them a bit.
That problem goes back to the start of D&D. Just a few years after Gary Gygax created the game, he discovered that he had saturated the market. Once everyone buys your rules, what more can you sell them? So they started releasing new splat books to add options for players. Thus, power creep was born.
All those splat books with options for players-The Complete [ ] Handbook series the worst culprit among them-came in 2nd Edition. Gary left TSR in 1986 while said edition was not even released until 1989. 1st Edition is fairly light on the books not counting adventure modules.
@Frustwell Absolutely. There were lots of problems under Lorraine Williams' leadership of TSR. But it started with the release of Unearthed Arcana under 1e days. WotC killed 3.5 because of all the splat books. In comparison, they have actually done a pretty good job of limiting the release of splat books under 5e. Still, that inevitable power creep finally took over with Tasha's, and now they are resetting the system with a new edition.
@@searchforsecretdoors Unearthed Arcana-a single book back then and one that was intended for DMs-is nothing like the constant UA playtest releases we have seen from Wizards. Wizards have clearly reoriented the game so it is no longer in the hands of DMs as Gary intended and instead much more player-facing and all about that power creep as that way they can sell more books to players who want more and more options when they compile those playtest releases into supplementary volumes like they did with Xanathar's and Tasha's. When I started playing the DM and the DM only owned the rules. Including even the PHB. Throughout the 80s and 90s I played 1st Edition then 2nd Edition and never owned a copy of the PHB. Now the game is pitched as if every player needs every book with promotional materials for the upcoming revised rules saying all three are "needed" for the "full" D&D experience. A case might be made for how greedy TSR got with Williams at the helm. But Wizards with its model of mass production and not pouring into its products the time and money and quality we see in books by publishers with not even a fraction of their earnings is a sure indication Wizards is all about the profits and the hobby a mere afterthought for them.
@@searchforsecretdoors Unearthed Arcana-a single book back then and one that was intended for DMs-is nothing like the constant UA play test releases we have seen from Wizards. Wizards have clearly reoriented the game so it is no longer in the hands of DMs as Gary intended and instead much more player-facing as that way they can sell more books to players who want more and more options when they compile those play test releases into supplementary volumes like they did with Xanathar's and Tasha's. When I started playing the DM and the DM only owned the rules. Including even the PHB. Throughout the 80s and 90s I played 1st. Edition then 2nd. Edition and never owned a copy of the PHB. Now the game is pitched as if every player needs every book to get the "full" experience. A case might be made for how greedy TSR got with Williams at the helm. But Wizards with its model of mass production and not pouring into its products the time and money and quality we see in books by publishers with not even a fraction of their earnings is a sure indication Wizards is all about the profits and the hobby a mere afterthought for them.
Unearthed Arcana-a single book back then and one that was intended for DMs-is nothing like the constant UA play test releases we have seen from Wizards. Wizards have clearly reoriented the game so it is no longer in the hands of DMs as Gary intended and instead much more player-facing as that way they can sell more books to players who want more and more options when they compile those play test releases into supplementary volumes like they did with Xanathar's and Tasha's. When I started playing the DM and the DM only owned the rules. Including even the PHB. Throughout the 80s and 90s I played 1st. Edition then 2nd. Edition and never owned a copy of the PHB. Now the game is pitched as if every player needs every book to get the "full" experience. A case might be made for how greedy TSR got with Williams at the helm. But Wizards with its model of mass production and not pouring into its products the time and money and quality we see in books by publishers with not even a fraction of their earnings is a sure indication Wizards is all about the profits and the hobby a mere afterthought for them.
Yeah I decided many months ago that WoTC wasn’t getting anymore of my money. And they’ve gotten a lot. I went down the Old School Essentials route and I’m loving that. Glad you like Shadowdark and are having fun. Because when playing games isn’t fun then it’s just another job. And nobody needs that 😂
@@shazamvondoom325 been enjoying exploring the OSR system and Shadowdark setting. I was looking into getting the OSE books today, but I wasn’t sure if they would be helpful with OSR games - do you know if the two are cross compatible?
@@FamilyTableTop I mean, the main selling point of OSR games is that they should be B/X compatible. I don't know specifically Shadowdark but it shouldn't change much. Maybe Shadowdark has ascending AC? In that case you will need to perform some conversions when using old modules which have only descending AC (and/or THAC0)
Well said, sir! This was an exhausting rant and I feel absolutely the same way. I am burned out and sick of D&D game/marketing design. I worked so hard, adding new house rules, my items, monsters, and mechanics and making the game faster, more dramatic, and story-driven even adding hardcore elements. Stopped hp growth after 3-5 levels (depending on groups). I ended up with a completely different system... Started to ask myself. So much effort, money and headaches... Is it worth it? This ruleset just frustrates DM and does not help them at all. Finally, I switched to other systems and enjoyed DMming games and story-driven one-shots, campaigns with friends and having much more fun. Never coming back.
@@FamilyTableTop Yes! I'm very lucky to have a weekly group of great people to play with. I did run a game at home too, for a few years, but it's on hiatus currently.
Fully understand. I have tons of money invested into 5E, all official releases up to approx Spelljammer, 1-2 beyond, everything from Kobold Press, many other 3rd Party releases via kickstarter...not to mention Fantasy Grounds *sigh* :) However, between WotC's behavior the last months/year, the direction of their game (both, as you explain the service/online game but also rules-wise), I essentially gave up and froze my 5E DM plans indefinately. We are now trying out other systems (playing Earthdawn, running Fallout, eyeing Shadowdark) and I dont see myself going back the next couple of years if ever. Very disappointing :(
I’m so sorry to read such a familiar story. As you have seen, we did the same thing. I think I just got too excited because my son was getting off of video games and he was starting to focus on playing real games. You mentioned fallout and Earthdawn… could you tell me about those? Is the fallout the skirmish wargame? Or is it a TTRPG? I know nothing about Earthdawn. Shadowdark is excellent. I was really worried about switching systems and our first game was a little shaky, but things went really well!
Did you actually ever GM a game ? How is it you complain so much about a game which concepts you seem to have a unique POV on, similar to a FlatEarther who believes to have found the perfect exaplanation why the government is lying to us ? The game is focussed on players. It's not a boardgame. You are supposed to guide your players throught the encounters YOU designed. If the players waltz through your encounter, you didn't loose. Your players did play an effective game. If your players only use their abilities off their sheets, you don't offer them anything else. It seems the best option. And if you 'metagame-DM' you are DM-ing. You don't ask you players for a perception check if you DON'T want them to find anything. You are metagaming because you ARE at the center of the game. You are designing, redesigning and interpreting. Where is the fun in having a player roll some obscure history roll they only can manage when the dice get lucky. You should place a hint for someone with a history background - the PC you know has a good history skill - and throw in some extra if they roll great. Your game keeps going and your player is feeling good, since they used that 'useless' skill and could stand in the spotlight beacuse of it. Also, are you aware the GM is a player ? You can use everything in the PHB. You can use everything in every book ever. You can even make new stuff up. In a way, the PHB and all the player content is only there to make sure the players have guidelines they can use when being faced with incompenent and ignorant GMs It's all they can use to make their world graspable. The GM does not need a rulebook. It seems to me your issues are not with D&D, but with the concept of player-enagement. And I agree, when faced with lesser options on the sheet, players tend to use more real-life options. But it's also true that once such an option did work, you could also write it down as an ability on the sheet, since players will use the same 'trick' whenever faced with a similar option. There is a reason why the 10ft pole is a default on every Fantasy-RPG equipment list ever.
D&D has always been a niche game. The fifth edition Dungeon Master's (DM) guide from 2014 does not lay a solid foundation for new players to understand how a game is designed to be run. There are elements in some of the pre-made adventures, like the Tomb of Annahilation, that can be very confusion for DM and players that don't understand or appreciate the classic Dungeon Crawl experience.
@@FamilyTableTop It is a relatively complex NSR game, that suffers from the same power issues that 5e does breaking down around 5th level. It is obviously easier to learn than 5e though. It is mostly played for their 0-level/1st level funnels, that are really fun. The magic system is different and fun, but overly complex and really over the top and weird.
Dungeon Crawl Classics is SO much fun. You just the need the core rule book. Fun, fast, furious. Seriously, buy the book. It's such a bargain. The classes are so much fun to play, warriors actually kick butt and feel lie Conan. DCC. Do it.
Just print/write your own spell cards, no need to buy them if you don't want to. You also don't need anything more than the phb to play 5e. Just make everything else up. Homebrew your own classes, races, monsters and make your own adventures, and expand the game to what you and your players enjoy. That being said I don't like defending WotC/Hasbro so, just play anything else. Regarding the written adventures, you're right that most of them are pretty bad. There are a few exceptions, e.g. I really enjoyed running Avernus and Strahd (have not tried the reprint). This seems to be pretty common with pre-written adventures, but I'm thinking that's because players never think like the writers do. Even when running other systems and adventures I need to constantly pull stuff out of my ass because my players did, or said something unexpected, that neither I nor the writers had thought about. It's part of the game. Go get some introduction boxes for other systems and go ham. Then review them on the channel.
@@FamilyTableTop I'm the Call of Cthulhu guy from the other videos. 😉 On another note, you don't have to defend your dislike for 5e/WotC/Hasbro. There are already way too many grifters out there on the f*ck WotC train for it to be interesting in the long run, imo. I'd much prefer to hear which games you do enjoy and why, and maybe reviews on systems you've tried, maybe successful (and unsuccessful) house rules, homebrews and so on. It's way more fun with a positive ttrpg community than one built on distaste for a specific product.
@@crax83 thank you for that insight. I Was thinking the same thing - I don’t want to get fixated on DnD like someone going through a bad breakup. I keep looking at Call of Cthulhu books at the game store. Your comments in the previous videos have piqued my interest.
A great way to show your players other games to jump-ship into is to show them RUclips reviews of the games you're considering. I personally use Dave Thaumavore's channel.
You really should look up Frostgrave. It's a skirmish wargame that is mini agnostic. Has some roleplaying elements, and is quite fun. It's worth a shot
@@deanlol I have EzD6, I just haven’t taken it seriously because I thought it would be too simple to run a longer campaign in… Have you tried the system for longer games?
@@FamilyTableTop no but I ran an EZD6 Wasted World one shot and one of the players implored me to run a campaign. At the time I didn't have time to do it. The players LOVED it and so did I. It was so quick and simple. He has some solutions for longer campaigns.
This has been the case since 2e (started in '90). I remember all the class books, race books, specialty books, spells & powers, etc, etc. Though 3e tried to clean it to a point, 3.5+ blew up the same way afterward. I moved into OSR games in '05 and loved it (C&C, C&C, Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy) and have loved it, even after a 4+ year stint of playing/running 5e. With the coming D&D:VTT edition it's been interesting to see a new generation realize this 20, 30 years later. :) I wish you the best moving forward. Also, for Superhero light system games may I suggest looking at Crusaders RPG (marvel style) and Prowlers & Paragons (WEG DC style). They are open enough to kind of expand out hero ideas.
@@FamilyTableTop Crusaders is a Superhero game, similar to FACERIP Marvel RPG from TSR but more random in hero generation like Villians and Vigilanties was. You can do fantasy with it but it is much less D&D.
I bought the castles and crusades rules back in 2012 and I’m still playing out of that book! And the if you bought into that system today we would be using the same rules! Love those Trolls.
I'm about to start my first new D&D group since the OGL. Mostly because of name recognition. My session 0 notes are PHB 2014 rules, no feats, no multi classing. I'll see how it goes. The game I've been GMing for the last 2 years is Shadowrun 3e. Everyone who has played it seem to like it. Next year, I'm starting Traveller or Stars Without Number, with my face to face group. Should be interesting.
@FamilyTableTop I've played DM/GM a lot of both. I'm one of those GMs who likes to try different systems and settings. My face to face group are happy to play any game I put forward. I have a player who has DM D&D, he's over it too. I have met a few players who are D&D only. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wants to play D&D are welcome, but I'm not DMing for the most part.
To be fair, any rpg system can become bloated with add ons and expansions. As an obsessive collector of indie fantasy RPGs, I’m certainly guilty of spending too much time and money on games that I will probably never play. That said, when I got back into the hobby a few years ago, after a 15 year hiatus, the only 5e product I got was the free PDF starter rules. I liked the core mechanics and just built everything else around it using my old Palladium Fantasy books. So you really don’t HAVE TO buy all of the other stuff that WotC are hocking. Of course, now I’m running two campaigns in Shadowdark and even though there are already too many expansions for that system out there, I’ve curbed my impulses and I just run the core rules with Cursed Scroll #1, foregoing the need to go down the rabbit hole. And Ive never been happier with my gaming experience.
You are not a fool. We all have our vices. I collect more game systems, supplements and boardgames than I play them lol. But i agree with others that you've come to a conclusion that takes many people much longer to discover. Back in the day it was a slow burn for some of us who slowly wanted more realism and thought more rules & more charts was the answer. As I got older, I began to appreciate simplicity... and after playing for 40+ years can make an educated guess on how to handle situations with fairness and consistency... the players make the game great... we just adjudicate and adjust our outline/plans accordingly
Dude, you are preaching to the choir here man. I am an old school 1st/2nd Edition player and for me when 3rd edition came out I started feeling this way. I can stomach 3.5/Pathfinder 1st Ed, but nothing beyonf that. 4th Ed was WAY worse then this, and 5E still has that 'video game simulation' elemnets to it I do not care for!
Ad&d is great, but for a newcomer who likes more combat rules, I would recommend Hyperboria 3 instead. The rules are great, simpler and much easier to parse.
Sorry you had a bad experience in the golden age of D&D, where everyone else were having fun with the greatest modules D&D ever produced in the early 80’s.
@@NemoOhd20 I spent a decade stretching from the mid 80s to the mid 90s playing 1st. Edition and 2nd. Edition and played some of the most memorable campaigns I ever played in using them. 5E is garbage. Even the physical books are garbage. A multibillion dollar company and it can't even put a fraction of the time and money into its books that smaller publishers do into theirs.
@@FamilyTableTop I enjoy spending time with my friends and having fun. I will admit I find something that frustrates me at least every third session. (Broken rules that don't come up every game, confusing rules, things I need to remind my players or say "that's not how this works", needing to buy the books multiple times in order to be able to use them on different platforms, broken magic items rules, encounter balance doesn't exist... You understand)
If you want to critique 5e, at least critique the real flaws of the systems. It is a tactical combat game, which means it has predefined choices, complex rules, etc. Because that is what is needed to have a tactical combat game. You may prefer to play a creative combat game, a rule light system, or whatever. But that only means 5e is not the type of game you want to play. There are people who want the complex rules and, for them, 5e is a good game. And there are people who LOVE complex rules and they play pathfinder. I know it is easy to join the 5e hate and farm the OSR aficionados views and approval. But at least be fair with your criticism.
As a comment below points out, you've escaped the matrix. WotC can provide you with a tasty steak. However you should consider finding/exploring simpler TTRPGs where the game hasn't been meta'ed to death by players min/maxing. OSR is one path, Shadowdark is another, a lot more options exist including ultra simple game designs such as ezD6.
@@FamilyTableTop I have several. From your video it sounds like you want less brain clutter (as well as less of a cash drain). Find a TTRPG with simple rules and on a rules budget. Find something "player facing". Become a story teller with a canvas the players can help define. You don't have to be the rules lawyer that needs to memorize and understand everything about the game. Check out alternatives with free pdfs, Dungeon Crawl Classics is very popular (DCC), Cairn is very small, Blades in the Dark is a D6 system and an entirely different type of setting from the typical high fantasy variety like DnD 5e. Personally if I were playing DnD I would be playing something more retro like AD&D, maybe 2e or Old-School Essentials (my preference would be Advanced).
Maybe its because I now play PF2E and absolutely love the complexity I dont think 5E is complex at all. Quite the opposite. Everything is dumbed down and too flexible. Now, the complexity of pf2e is fine simply because you can play 100% for free. They didnt do it to sell stuff but to make the game more interesting and balanced. It isnt perfect but I find it way more fun. WotC has become terrible and money grubbing. Lucky is an example of something that is shit in 5e. Yes, as a DM you can ban it but that feat even existing doesnt make sense. Its like they thought "how can we remove any tension from any trap or failed save". PF2e kinda has a similar abilitie but you have to level up to get it and its a once a day ability or an armor piece that only allows attack and saves at a cost. If you reroll it then an enemy gets a reroll agains you. Balanced and great. Not 3 uses which is insane.,
@@FamilyTableTop Why? Are you interested in trying it? I would be willing to run the beginner box if you want to try it out. We have a table top and gaming discord going and I use foundryvtt for games.
The great thing about DnD is you can stop anytime and still have fun. You can just get the phb and have fun or buy all the things and have fun. I like 5e but I don't think I will be buying any of the new stuff.
@@FamilyTableTop It is made by Kobold Press which has been making 5e content for D&D for years. Books like Tome of Beasts and Tome of Heroes which are very well done and popular books. Tales of the Valiant is their own version of 5.5e. While WoTC made 2024 DnD, KP made ToV and its a much better version of 5e. So if you want to keep playing 5e without WoTC this is the system for you. I have been doing a lot of videos on it if you want to take a look and our curious.
Welcome to the OSR.
@@nightwind67 happy to be here
THe OSR would be too much for this guy
but shadowdark is part of the OSR.
Shadowdark is NSR / OSR adjacent.
It is half 5e half OSR.
@@kurtoogle4576 can you explain? What aspects of the OSR game system would be to much for me? Maybe I could find a tutorial.
Welcome to the Matrix.
WotC is a horrible company. Go indy and never look back if that’s what you want to do.
@@RIVERSRPGChannel that is probably what I will do.
@@FamilyTableTop Well I will be the Pathfinder rawks for the GM guy. :)
I'd add one caveat for that suggestion - the pdf files of the supplements for older D&D editions are on dmsguild.
I want to believe that the problem with WotC mainly is Hasbro... That's probably wishful thinking though.
my god there are SO MANY AMAZING indie games out there at the moment. Love it
For being new to TTRPGs you seem to have a really good understanding of the core issues with modern systems vs properly made systems. Kudos to you. WoTC is trash.
It seems the big Table Top companies have mirrored the business practices of AAA video game companies. I surprised I didn’t see it sooner… but happy to be where we are.
They even made the presale bundles with discounts and get-it-first practices. It's insanity
@@Timikator I didn’t know that.
Honnestly, I've been playing for 4 years and always hated dndbeyond and started hating dnd quite rapidly as well. They made the hobby seem expensive while taking so much space in medias that they look like the only system for most newbies.... and all that for a system that is not even that well designed.. When it's so obvious you dont need to be an old school player to notice it
@@zenymax8348 yes, that’s absolutely correct - even newcomers can see it.. are you still playing 5E?
I’m in the same boat with the view point and trap!
Shadowdark Reigns!
@@CJ_esc.artist have you payed any of the Scrolls?
Shaadoowwdaark!
@@langwaters9653 have you tried out any of the Scrolls?
@@FamilyTableTop I own all three and love the content, though I haven't deployed much of the content on my table yet. I'm currently running a classic DnD adventure from the early 80s--The Temple of Elemental Evil, with Shadowdark. That's taking most of my game time. However, this Friday we're taking a break I'm going to run the gauntlet from Cursed Scroll #3--Hoard of the Sea Wolf King. I'm also writing an adventure that will use a bunch of the content from #3. Each Cursed Scroll is pretty tasty.
I loved your Shadowdark video. I'm somewhat in the same boat as you
@@Elighght are you starting Shadowdark also? Or thinking about it?
@@FamilyTableTop Loving it and all the zines! Just ordered the new solo supplement.
Old quote from E. Gary Gygax, and I always try to revisit it occasionally, and re-apply it to my AD&D 2nd Edition ongoing campaign:
“It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer
to force quotations from the rule books upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game."
You are the arbiter of your game's world, you alone interpret its limits and extent.
At this point, it doesn't matter the whole "play it your way" doesn't mean anything, it's too late and there's no point in holding onto something that isn't bringing the amount of joy from TTRPGs like it should.
Moving on to other games is never a bad thing and people putting that down in exchange for the old wisdom of Gygax isn't helpful. Embrace new things.
@@VMSelvaggio that feels totally different from the spirit of 5E DnD
Gygax other than when he was defending his TSR shares, was a proponent of Folk D&D.
Take what you like from different games and make your dream game. Those are the tenets of the OSR.
Lol, this quote caused games like Index Card RPG, Deathbringer, Shadowdark, and many others. 5E is irrelevant.
I've been mis=quoting one variation or another of these for decades. it's one of the things that make TTRPGs 'different'.
- Sees relatively new GM to the scene
- Sees that the new GM is quite based
- I hit like, subscribe, and the bell icon
Literally loling… thank you.
@@FamilyTableTop no no no, thank YOU. We need more newcomers(especially influencers like yourself) who can see each of these games for what they are and, more importantly, what they aren’t.
@@Wesley_Youre_a_Rabbit I’m still learning here, but my goal is to help families find good games to play with each other- and it’s really hard to recommend DnD with how aggressively monetized the game is…
Did the same!
Lookz like we've got a flexin' corner 'ere, boiz!
{Flexes his muscles}
All based here, no bigots
@@FamilyTableTop I left a top-level comment … you have NOOOO idea how hard it was to focus on just one aspect if the value for me of a simple system I can keep track of as a GM and not launch into a five page rant that begins with, "You will own nothing and be happy." And continued with, "But while we are working on boiling that frog, here's a bunch of crap you need to buy right now that will ultimately not really solve the ultimate problem, which is that you haven't given us enough of our money yet." *sigh*
FOMO is something most of us have to be wary of. And companies prey on this too.
Sold all my 5e books a couple of years ago. Best decision ever. We have options - lots of options - and right now the OSR provides all the tools we need for years and years of gaming.
@@H-HWJvN do you have a favorite OSR game?
@@FamilyTableTop I have three:
1. Old Schools Essentials: Advanced Fantasy;
2. The Black Hack, 2E (specially Fleaux!, By this Axe I Hack, and Black Sword Hack);
3. Knave, 2E.
I love the Black Hack 2E, it's one of my favourite boxed RPG sets to just grab and go.
I just watched for a second time. I also was sucked down the money hole of wizards, buying everything I could, thinking it would make my 5e game more enjoyable. I also, am a fool. I crowdfunded shadowdark, and its been sitting unopened, making excuses that I need to prepare for my next game, I didnt have the time. Well I have the time now. Please make more shadowdark content. Tutorials on making characters, maybe a run thru if your group is ok with that. You keep putting out content, Ill continue to watch. Thanks for the wake up call!
Absolutely. I will make a video about the book in the next few days and explain what I did to get started.
Thank you so much for your encouragement and kindness.
I understand entirely.
D&D of Christmas past allowed the DM to be a Judge. IE the boss and arbiter of situations. This is not expected anymore. You're not expected to ever deny options. You're not expected to even set options. I tried to run a game of 5E once using canonically permitted modifications. Specifically, eliminating "skills" from the game entirely. It's in the DMG. Chapter 9, second page if memory serves. It did not go well. This is because DMs aren't the Judges anymore.
In 1994, I ran a Dark Sun game. Nobody asked to play something from The Complete Book of Humanoids that just came out or even a Cleric from the core, because it was understood that Athas has a specific set of races and classes that envokes a specific flavor. If somebody wanted to they'd have a hard fought battle to get it to happen and likely I'd still have said no to maintain the integrity of the fictional world. Then they would have sucked it up and played something else. It doesn't make sense for a triton to be in the game on a dying, desert planet. This is also why we didn't see a 5E Dark Sun, because they'd have to tell GMs to limit player options and that's against the company byline. WotC wants you to buy ALL the books and use ALL the books ALL the time.
Another setting came out in the 90s called Planescape. It's novelty was that you could play any race across the planes. A Thri-kreen in the same party as a triton, githzerai and goblin. Since this is EVERY 5E game now, there is no novelty to it. Releasing the Planescape boxed set for 5E was hilarious because every game of 5E is already Planescape. I assume the books are rather empty.
I am always surprised by your wealth of knowledge and experience. You have so much information about the TTRPG world it fascinates me.
That shift from seeing the DM as the referee and him or her establishing what does and does not exist in his or her homebrew setting to a more player-facing approach with more and more options just to sell more and more books is ultimately what drove me away from Wizards and the current official version of the game. It doesn't feel like D&D no more.
@@Frustwell it's even worse than that, as the mentality has invaded the culture of the game. 3pp releases follow it as well. I bought Primeval Thule years ago and lamented when there were sections on including what should be simply forbidden elements: dwarves, elves, paladins, etc. If it had the balls to say 'humans and atlanteans only' the setting would have actually had a flavor. But instead it's Planescape, just like every other 5e setting. Homogenous inoffensive least-common-denominator pleasing gray goo. The gray might be a little lighter or darker here and there, but frankly the modern game is starving for some color.
@@Eron_the_Relentless I knew the moment Wizards started intoning "the multiverse" over and over like some mantra in their promotional videos that we were going to see the homogenization of campaign settings. In order to make players feel as if every book is worth its inflated cost and is going to be useful at every table they have achieved mediocrity. D&D can't pass into others' hands soon enough.
Considering that DMs are (supposedly) so hard to find, this really should not be the case. If I'm running a game, I'm running the game. If a certain race/ class/ whatever doesn't exist in my game, that's just how it is. If a player says "yeah, but I want to play 'X'" then I say "ok, well lots of other campaigns will allow that, but that's not the game I am playing."
To me, a player demanding that the GM change/ add things in their campaign is like being invited to dinner and telling the host what they *must* serve. Not happening. It's Dungeon Master, not Dungeon Servant.
I have two simple solutions. Play SHADOW DARK OR 1E DnD Or PATHFINDER 2E. As a DM, 5E characters become DEMI-GODS by 5th level.
I feel your pain. Yes being a DM is a lot of work. And involves selecting what add ons you will allow in your game. Perhaps OSR may be your style? Currently playing Dragonslayer rpg by Greg Gillespie and loving it.
@@pISSUMTREE what are you enjoying about Dragonbane? People keep recommending that system.
@@FamilyTableTop it is a OSR version that uses the mechanics of Basic/Expert rules withe the best parts of 1e AD&D(races, class...spells etc). Characters are not super heroes with a character sheet of powers.
Its more old school where you have to survive by wit....skill and some caution. A challenging game with a beautiful core book.
@@pISSUMTREE thank you for explaining that.
Now comes the fun part where the wild wonders of the larger RPG hobby open up, and youvsee SO MANY different ideas in play.
I often feel like an "old man yelling at clouds", I agree with everything you stated. Now days I just try not to be too cynical, people will play what they want to play, but I do I admire your integrity in regards to making recommendations. Respect.
...resisting the urge to pile on with a litany of WotC crimes against the community. Is,... really hard.
It isnt just old man yelling at cloud. These lite fast games are exploding while Witches (& Hipsters) of the Shore has decided to drop the books soon and already fired the books crew.
@@NemoOhd20I was going to pick up OSE bundle from my game store… they were sold out… maybe the winds are changing.
Same! 😅
@@FamilyTableTophave you looked at Basic Fantasy RPG. It's one of my go to OSR games. Also free and POD are sold at cost
I play BECMI since the 80's and will never change... thaco and descending AC along with lighters rules and having fun is the game !
@@joelcaron8291 I still don’t fully understand THAC0 as a system, but I get the premise - that being said, I do agree that rules lite is far more fun to me.
THACO forever!
I agree that D&D 5E is not a DM-friendly system and that there are much better systems out there for any type of game you want to run. However, the main thing it's got going for it is the massive community. There is value in being part of a larger group and being able to share and appreciate memes, homebrew, and having lots of discussions and arguments over a common thing.
After my current 5E campaign is done, I plan on starting a campaign using a different system, but I plan on staying connected to D&D for the community. I might join a D&D game as a player or run the occasional one-shot.
@@avengingblowfish9653 how are the combats in your game?
It is interesting that games with skill lists can limit options because the player see's the list and thinks that is all they can do, whereas those games that do not have lists promotes more inventive solutions. Which is a shame cause most of the games I love have skill lists.
AD&D (known as 1E these days) had the original PHB and DMG, and along with the MM incorporated ‘the rules’. Everything else was optional rules (unearthed arcana, the survival guides), modules, campaign settings or monster books, the majority of the material being adventures and campaign material by far. Deities and Demigods was a bit of a combo book, having rules for clerics and resurrection but also info on mythologies and stats for gods (the ultimate monsters). During the decade or so of 1E there was a minimum of ‘rules bloat’ and a clear focus on material to provide a varied play experience and to encourage the players to create their own campaigns. There was no need and little request for new rules or rules changes…until TSR decided a 2nd edition was needed to ‘clean up’ the rules (and take Gary’s name off the core books).
@@russellharrell2747 ooh, what did Gary do wrong? Why did they want his name off?
@@FamilyTableTop oh boy, the TSR management feud of the 80s is legendary, too much to go into here. Supposedly Gary was just in the way of all the corporate mismanagement that the rest of the staff wanted to do, but that’s mostly a one sided version. There’s a lot of videos detailing it on YT, and they’d do a better job presenting it than I would.
Come for the rant, stay for the 5e PHB in the diaper! 😁
@@Merlinstergandaldore lol.
That diaper was a nice touch.
It's a wild feeling when you start discovering that there are games out there that let you buy one book and you have the entire system. I arrived at a lot of the same conclusions you did about the game and also headed for greener pastures.
My original issue with 5E was trying to add rules from different systems and games to make dungeon crawling and exploration more interesting. At a certain point I realized I was just developing an entirely different game and the problems I had with the game spiralled out from there. I know people try sell modular design as a feature but there are so many games that have mastered what they intend on delivering and do it concisely and effectively. I look forward to seeing where your TTRPG explorations take you.
What game systems have you landed on that you love? Have you found a game that satisfies the exploration goals you have?
@@FamilyTableTop We've really enjoyed the jump to Old School Essentials which remains our main game.
@@FamilyTableTopMy current fixation for campaign style games is Savage Worlds. That said, I’ve been playing short 5 session adventures in games like Mork Borg, Pirate Borg, Cy-Borg, and recently, I’d started running a mech game in a post apocalyptic setting called Salvage Union. It’s a little complicated, but the complication is all on the players and them building their mechs. Levels are simple, but the parts to build mechs with are less so.
@@jyniraxOld School Essentials is pretty good, too. Very similar to Mork Borg, but I think it’s more complicated than it should be.
OSE is pretty great.
Amazing design and the B/X engine is a lot of fun.
Enjoyed your videos! My Friday night tabletop group at my house each week has played ShadowDark for a year and a half and everyone loves it, and comes back enthusiastically every week! We rotate DMs, and I am the current one. SD is a simple system and my players have been from D&D 1E up to 5E, and several complete noobs. We all enjoy it. We have used the official classes, online creations, and homebrew. It is so versatile.... wanna add muskets and play pirates and musketeers? No problem. Fast combat, immersive roleplay, and great times! That's where we are now. Our campaign world keeps expanding. All the best with your tabletop, which is the best way to play.... in-person with friends and family! 5E has become a video game, especially with all the online play now... including WOTCs new VTT coming. Break from the power cord once a week and just have plain fun!
The best thing about D&D, and all TTRPGs, is that you literally need nothing other than maybe pencil, paper, and dice, to play. You can make everything else up if you want. If you don't want to go that barebones, then get ahold of the PHB, DMG, and MM of the edition that you fancy (or another RPG entirely) and play with just that.
This is why WotC does the things you point out, they know we don't actually need them so they try to convince us that we do need them.
I'm pretty much going OSR, looking to pick up the Basic/Expert sets and maybe some modules. I'm also inclined towards AD&D and it's modules. Thinking of trying some other RPGs as well, but I need premade modules because I just don't have the time to create adventures.
Correct, WotC is greedy and anti-consumer. They designed the game to maximize profits instead of fun. I think that supporting that company is stupid and immoral.
It is sad how "game as a live service" has been used mainly greedily. Regarding Ishanekon: World Shapers (my own TTRPG), I am dipping into that design way but without trying to exploit the users. I make monthly updates, adding new features, rebalancing the game, and more. This allows me to design things "recklessly" since I can easily fix them later without worrying about printed content I sold. This is one of the main reasons why I could design so many features as a one-man company. But it is not exploitative since the updates are 100% free like the rest of the game.
@@Luykosaurus where can your game be found?
@@FamilyTableTop On my website. I cannot post the link since RUclips automatically filters out comments with links, but you should be able to find it by googling Ishanekon: World Shapers.
They didn’t do any of that. They made an excellent game that brings people lots of joy. They didn’t even raise prices on the books in 10 years, which is bad business.
@@hawkname1234 Question: Are you well-informed about TTRPGs in general? Because this does not sound like something someone would say who has any experience with TTRPGs outside of D&D.
There is no shame in that. I was trapped in that same bubble four years ago.
@@hawkname1234 are you saying that you think WotC is making business decisions that are “customer first”? Do you mean that believe WotC are acting in a pro-consumer fashion?
Lesson learned. Don't spent hundreds on a game system that you've played for less than a year.
@@loges_lol probably still learning that lesson - hence the diapered Players hand book. Hopefully a helpful reminder
This lesson doesn't work for me cause I've been playing for 5 years I'm stopping dnd now after spending atleast 1000 dollars luckily mine was mostly 3rd party content only wotc books I own are players handbook, dungeon master guide, monster manual, and icewindale
@@Shattered_Entertainment are you going to be playing something else, or stepping away from the hobby?
I like this content
Thank you.
I grew bored of running 5e. It's tedious and relegates the GM to rolling dice and reading results. I always got lost in the math and resolution when I was the GM and unable to narrate the fun fantasy elements of the game or combat. It's my least favorite game to run.
@@scottanderson9208 what is your favorite game to run?
Shadowdark really is the best of the OSR. Knave 2E is a great runner up and it's awesome that both work together really well, too.
That’s a good point - I think I’d like to take the maneuvers system from Knave and add it to Shadowdark - but I get worried that my players would stop doing interesting things in combat.
@@FamilyTableTop I honestly find players are more inventive in ShadowDark, even Pathfinder 2e, than 5e..
@@gordonfreeman6305 that’s been my experience as well.
What game are you playing by now?
I'm not sure that spell cards and character sheet binders are good examples of problems with D&D. Spell write ups and stat blocks have always been on the longer side and sheet binders are completely optional things. A player could just as easily write the title of the spell and the page number to point them to the write up in the book without spending additional money.
You don't need to opt in on new content, you can just as easily use only the PHB to run D&D as you can use Shadowdark to run an entire campaign.
Local man freaks out because he cant be an adult and not buy things.
@@infinitedm5396 well done. That’s pretty funny. 😆
Shadowdark converts another DnD player.
This is the first video of yours I have seen. You may be my new favorite tabletop youtuber. As a person who loves to buy and read the books, I'm a sucker for when a game has a LOT of books to read, but if I'm honest with myself, the games I have the most fun with are the ones that are easy to get started and play, and the ones that demand less of my money.
Wow, you nailed it… that’s exactly what I’m thinking as well. What games have you been able to play recently?
@@FamilyTableTop I have a Starfinder game that I run for some friends, but we're all old and busy, so it's maybe once every other month. But I have also run 5e, Call of Cthulhu, Ashen Stars, Forbidden Lands, and the Alien RPG. Starfinder is the easiest one to convince people to play because it's a d20 game, but I like Ashen Stars a lot for Scifi
@@suburbansurvival8239 how do you like alien?
@FamilyTableTop I like it. It's sleek and quick. Sometimes character skills can be vague. But it's meant to be a more narrative game, so the focus isn't on explicitly laying out rules to make skills predictable in combat.
@@suburbansurvival8239 could you tell me about star finder? What is it, how does it play?
From someone who’s played a lot of editions. When I got back into playing for my daughter I got both box sets and the 3 D&D books, those were a mistake. So I went backwards and ran Keep on the Boardlands from B\X, watched Prof DM, and remembered the old rule. Keep it simple stupid.
@@brentnorton1602 did your daughter prefer the older system?
@@FamilyTableTop She did. I wanted to show her how “Stranger Thing” D&D was actually played.
We had a table of ten players and 5e combat would have been extremely problematic. Simpler systems like B/X, Becmi, or new games ICRPG, and Shadowdark allow for more players.
5e is just the entry point to the hobby. Same as Monopoly to boardgames.
Don't get stuck with 5e, get out there, find a better game for you and your players.
What do you play?
Castles & Crusades. You only ever need the Players Handbook and the Monsters & Treasure book.
@@GrognardPiper where can I get a hard cover book for the game?
If you are stupid and dumb, then I am stupid and dumb. And I’m neither stupid nor dumb. Sounds like you hit the nail on the head. Well said.
@@chronixchaos7081 what system do you play now?
One more thing, however THIS is the most IMPORTANT one, this is something that will help you.
You. The DM. Are ALSO a player in YOUR game.
You are just a different player, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ALSO have fun while playing your game.
You should look at what you want out of a game and try to adjust it towards it, balance it how you like it and talk about the changes to your players and if they agree with your ideas.
You can change "anything" you want as long as you remeber this if things go bad.
It's okay to admit you've made a mistake and tell the people in the mistake that: " hey, this doesn't work, I need to adjust things, can we change X back or ignore Y change I made?"
That all makes sense, I often have a tendency to martyr myself for our game sessions since I’m just so happy that everyone is here playing a game with us.
I hadn’t made the connections between bloated game design and sale of solutions, but it has been woefully obvious that the game is unnecessarily complicated for a very long time. Same thing with P2E. I drastically prefer other systems to the point that these main stream games are becoming very uncomfortable for me to engage with unfortunately.
@@joshuaspellslinger4102 what have you been playing recently?
Basic Fantasy is completely free.
@@bloomcrawler thank you for the recommendation. Is it difficult to learn?
@@FamilyTableTopit’s about as easy as they come, B/X level of difficulty and quite similar to it.
D&D was first and deserves appreciation and recognition. But the game they are selling us now is nothing like the one Gygax and Arneson played in their day. And I most definitely do not just mean mechanics.
Glad to see a new member in... Well, let's call "Self-aware Inn" due to "community" being taken over Hasbro's PR slang. ;3
As a fellow ttrpg player (I rather avoid DM/player recognition, as I explained to my bros that I am here also to play, not to run nor ruin their entertainment) here's a good point : actual play is based on speaking , not mechanics or preparations. Latter is just for easing the decision making or lighten the amount of pressure set on your brain (ie creativity, possible relations of NPC, who and what could do etc etc). Thus RPG session is a chat, a lovely and lenghty discourse between players
Thank you reminding me to give proper attention to my family over social media. I really appreciate your encouragement
@@FamilyTableTop My pleasure!
As I wrote before - there are more important things than mere game of make-belive taken to "adult level" of tone/gameplay. And reminding something obvious... Oh boy, I've learned that whence I was over 18, but I wish I knew that when I was 8 and my father took me to his farm, where he was just working, leaving me there just to talk about something. Litterally anything.
Back then I didn't know - now I wish I talked more, despite having us both in good shape and relations ;)
Ie. being reminded that you are loved and taken care of (in honest manner) is really calming.
Nice analysis. And the comparison of WotC's approach with D&D to the live service (video) games business model is valid. I think that'll become even a worse of a problem the more WotC is going to focus on their digital distribution via D&D Beyond.
What D&D (WotC) is good for, like you discussed in another video, is bringing new people into the hobby. Some will stay their many, like you, will eventually discover, try out and switch to other games. The Indie-TTRPG scene is so rich and diverse. And there's not only stuff for the fantasy genre. There's a whole and literal multiverse for us to explore and have fun within.
WoTC is only interested in getting kids into their walled garden and keeping people away from exploring other RPG's. The marketing brainwashing and attacks on D&D founders, old school, OSR, OGL etc. is disgusting. Anyone thinking their part is helping anything are exceptionally naive.
They are trying to kill the TTRPG hobby and replace it with their digital game. They are the worst steward the official brand could have.
@@danielsommerlykke9475 They are unfit to be the custodians of the IP that is for sure.
@@limpirium could you help me to understand something? NSR, OSR and OSE - what is the difference between them?
@@FamilyTableTop I can at least try to the best of my understanding.
OSR = Old-School Renaissance/Revival/Retro: games that try to mimic old-school D&D as closely as possible in terms of rules and play-style , tone and vibe
OSE = Old-School Essentials Classic or Advanced Fantasy: is in its core B/X D&D or AD&D 1e respectively. I.e. it's a true retro-clone of the original editions of D&D, and therefore just one of many OSR games, yet, probably one of the closest to the original.
NSR = New-School Revolution (I guess): are game trying to emulate the play-style/tone/vibe of old-school D&D but with a more modern rules, and therefore less a clone and more re-imagining. So it's a special kind of OSR where the authors adapt/invent rules to match their intent and modern preferences. I am not sure but I think, Shadowdark could be understood as a NSR type of game.
All this may be subject to interpretation and other people may disagree. Everyone doing so please feel free to share your perspective.
Wizards reminds you of EA? Well now they are "all in on digital products", D&D will literally BE a video game, with all the microtransactions, pre order junk, digital currency, all the evil shenanigans. Oh and you will all need a laptop to play, no more books and dice. Everyone looking at screens around a table.
Dystopian nightmare gaming sessions.
Pathfinder 2e takes care of a lot of these problems. Except for the long spells. Sometimes they have very long spells. But the spells are organized so it’s not too bad
@@alanthomasgramont what are a couple major differences between DnD and Pathfinder? Why would a person choose PF over DnD - or visa versa?
@@FamilyTableTop Tried to reply but my comment instantly gets deleted.
My favorite RPG is Champions. It's a point build RPG originally made to run superhero games. Buy the rules and you never need to buy another product if you're willing to build everything yourself. (Or download stuff from public sources) It was first published in 1981 and I'm still playing it.
Do you know where it can be found?
Break the chain! That seems to be the main theme of your video and I agree 100%. WOTC is looking on making D&D a digital ecosystem, and it is our right to opt out. And Shadowdark is a great OSR-adjacent system. And look if you look into Basic Fantasy RPG, you'll find more free stuff (adventures, character classes, etc...) than you can ever use. Most of it can be easily ported into Shadowdark with little to no conversion. Enjoy and keep us posted. The family that games together, stays together.
@@sharpmountaingames9303 staying together is my hope. What is the difference between OSR and OSE?
@@FamilyTableTop OSE is Old School Essentials, a near clone of the early 1980's Basic/Expert sets. OSR is the old school revival, a large group of games with an old school design philosophy (simpler mechanics, often compatible with each other, no huge skill or feat list). If you are playing Shadowdark, it's a nice blend between 5E and OSR type games. I've played in games and it works great.
@@sharpmountaingames9303 thank you for explaining that.
Have to agree with you completely. I think your Assassins Creed example was spot on. With all the extra books WotC sells they have made a huge convoluted mess. And as you correctly noted, the game was designed like that from the start as a predatory way to cash in on their customers. I was part of that for a while, but I have walked away in favor of smaller indie companies and the OSR.
@@shawnhuls1606 what Indy games do you like? Are playing something currently?
I've been feeling similar, I started with 5th edition d&d but I just really dislike how characters feel basically the same, there no real danger with how death saves work, advantage/disadvantage and critical hits just rolling another die doesn't feel satisfying most of the time as well as combat taking too long.
@@LeggoSF those are all issues I have with the game as well.
What other systems have you looked at?
@@LeggoSF Combats that are "too long" is something you're never really going to avoid in any TTRPG, at least not in any that have any degree of activity in combat. Actions take time to resolve, even if they're always successful, because they take time to describe. Actions take time to decide, because TTRPG combats are more complex than checkers, and most people even take a lot of time to make their moves in checkers. Lots of things tend to happen in TTRPG combats, because everyone wants to be involved and a combat in which only one person acts is boring. Because lots of things happen, there are lots of actions, and because there are lots of actions, there's a lot of thinking, a lot of strategizing, and a lot of description.
And that's before we even talk about rules or numbers or record-keeping. Long combat is something you just have to accept as part of the medium.
The best you can do is make combat mechanics as painless as possible and make everyone's choices as interesting and engaging as possible. If combat isn't engaging, it'll feel slow no matter how quickly it's over. If combat is engaging, it'll feel fast no matter how long it takes or how many Excel spreadsheets you need to reference.
This is where 5e fails hard. Once you see behind the mechanical curtain and understand how unthreatening most combats are, how little tactical difference there is between characters, and how unlikely permadeath is, all system-derived tension vanishes.
Pretty much any edition of D&D does better in this regard than 4e and 5e. If you like having substantive mechanical differentiation between characters, you'll probably prefer 3.5 over other editions. As the sheer amount of material available can be overwhelming, I'd recommend keeping to just the core books plus _Tome of Battle, Expanded Psionics Handbook,_ and _Magic Item Compendium_ for a long while. If mechanical differentiation isn't a big thing for you, I'd recommend BECMI using any of the many modernizing hacks to make it use ascending AC and saves.
Some OSR systems also do pretty well, as does Pathfinder 2e. Then we can get into all the games that look boring like D&D, like Shadowrun and Call Of Cthulhu and Legend of the Five Rings.
Just stay away from anything built on the "Powered by the Apocalypse" system, as its entire raison d'etre is to pit the GM against the other players.
I kinda didn't realize it until you said it, but yeah, DnD 5e is like a video game and that's what I kinda like about it and what I've been looking for in TTRPGS as a magic-wielding player. I grew up with Baldur's Gate, Neverwinte Nights, Icewind Dale, etc. so that was my gateway to fantasy and that's what I kinda gravitate towards. I like it because it makes me feel like a superhero, but I do see that the way DnD is built may limit player creativity. So I'm open to exploring other TTRPGS, and I'm new still, so I'm curious what's out there.
@@ViolentMuffin have you heard of Savage Worlds?
@@FamilyTableTop nope
"He's beginning to believe" - Morpheus.
I think he swallowed the red pill - watch out now.
I switched back to 3.X editions, and it turns out that you can run that in the Classic Style really well. Classic Style is what OSR claims to be doing with one exception: Classic Style is about everyone following all the rules and proceedures and OSR is about rejecting rules and proceedures to have on the spot rulings and streamlining the game. I'm also working on my own version of 3.X so I can lighten the load on the rules just a little.
Speaking of taking things away from players, I took away all levels after 6. E6 is a great ruleset.
Also, I think it's okay if players walk all over my encounters. I don't use CR, I use a sandbox. There is no story, only situations and dungeons. Story is emergent. If something is killing the players, they know to run away and do something else.
You don't seem to know how right you are. With WotC's move to "all in on digital" the things you see will accelerate. Game concepts will be half baked on purpose, because if you use the digital version you'll get the patches.
@@BobMcDowell that’s sinister. What a nasty company… all of this marketing and monetization of gaming systems seems to be the way of things now… even the small RUclips creators are releasing Kickstarters with 800$ bundles…
I would suggest that your mind is made up because you happened upon the truth.
Great video. Welcome to the wider TTRPG world.
Thank you. I think you’re correct.
Our group will not be going forward from D&D 5e in fever of other TTRPG creators like DC20 and Dragon hart. We are also looking to create our own set of rules, this way the group has a vested interest in the game and how it is played. Over the last 5 years we have played two 1st to 20th level campaigns and found that it is hard now to keep the interest going. we are now looking to play shorter campaigns that only do 4 levels at a time with a break were we would play 4 levels of another system with each 4 levels being a campaign in itself and not just a scenario
@@rolandkeys8297 interesting idea. What are the systems you will be testing out?
@@FamilyTableTop I am currently just started testing the DC20 system from the You Tubs The Dungeon Coach, and my son is trying you-tubes Matt Covils system. We were also looking at youtubss "Critical Rolls Dragon hart system. I believe that all three believe in the TTRPG community rather than lining there pockets, but isn't that how D&D started. we talked about writing our own rules last week and putting them up on the net for people to adapt to whatever they want.
After a few of these videos, it seems like the current state of the D&D system just isn't going to work for how you and/or your players approach a game. Nothing wrong with that. Play what works for you.
My feedback would be there is no such thing as "meta" DMing. ALL DM/GMs are meta. It's inherent in the role. If you're doing it well, it is seamless and everyone is having fun and not noticing. If you're still learning how to do it then it might be kludgy and feel like less fun.
The game is definitely monetized out the wazoo, so if that doesn't work for you, no shame in finding a system that does it for you. I will say I've never used any of the paraphernalia you showcased and neither have the the vast majority of people I've played with so I truly don't think it is needed, but it sure can be annoying if it's presented as critical to success. I'd also say that as a long time M:TG plyer, I'm not one to walk away just because of monetization concerns.
Badly written modules? Sure. They've been making them for a very long time, sometimes they have been great, other times, not so much.
That is all very fair. Thank you for the advice.
Amazing Tales RPG is a good example of how little actual rules you need to run a fun story sharing game.
You can play with any form of made up characters, a d6 to add some randomness and you are golden.
I haven’t heard of that system.
It feels good to play a game that's made complete, and it feels especially good when I think, "the game designer could have made this part exploitable but they chose to give us the great version of this game."
I've been burnt by Fantasy Flight way too many times...you're not alon
lol - so have I! Stupid Marvel Champions.
There is no company that wants you to become a better person - make changes, grow, resist bad things - because those things don’t make them money.
You are spot on in your analysis
We also play some old school tsr marvel super heroes. We use both heroclix and the marvel protocol figs. Every hero and villain is just 1 sheet with abilities.
@@pcwarduke2055 what’s the name of the system? My son and his friend would probably love it.
@@FamilyTableTop TSR Marvel super heroes, there's a basic and advanced set
I feel your pain. It's almost a bit of embarrassment... like falling for the same knock knock joke over and over. Just last year I finally got back into TTRPGs. I started collecting a few 5e books, and even gave WotC some money on Beyond. I should have known better... I quit Magic years ago because of those never-ending "expansions". I am hopeful that I have some valuable first-run cards in that box. As far as video games go, I'm hoping that Hello Games keeps up what they've been doing with No Man's Sky. Since the terrible launch in 2016, the company has made non-stop updates and upgrades and improvements and expansions... all for free. I picked up the game recently on sale for 20 bucks... and still got every single update. Their dedication to both their craft and players should be inspiration for game maker out there. Hopefully they keep it up and don't fall into the live service trap. Thanks for your info on Shadowdark. Not sure I'll ever get a chance to play it, but I plan to pick up the book soon nonetheless.
I’m so sorry to hear that you are struggling with some of the same things that I am… do you have a regular gaming group? Are you playing TTRPG now?
@@FamilyTableTop Thank you! I am in a D&D group at a local library, and a few of us play in a smaller setting too. There's a game store in town that I might look into for a Shadowdark game at some point. I have managed to curb the desire to buy into anything new recently... even paused my 19 year subscription to WoW! I'm enjoying your videos and getting a lot of good perspective. Thanks so much!
@@micahfloyd1974 thank you so much.
Ugh… WOW, I did that for such a long time… that game was really hard to quit.
How did you get yourself to stop playing?
Your local game store has ongoing TTrpgs? Have you played in a game store before?
@@FamilyTableTop My local game store is called Guy on the Couch and just recently moved into a huge space... ironically it's an old gym. They always have lots of card at strategy games going on, but I'm not sure how the TTRPG sessions work. It might be a work in progress. I've never played in that setting before. I'm not sure I've totally quit WoW yet, but I found I was logging in and doing a lot of nothing. Then I got the latest Zelda game and I started playing less and less of everything else. No Man's Sky has also had the same effect. As a dad with limited play time, I find that I can't really enjoy more than one game at a time.
Another great video. I think I love your content for the same reasons you prefer certain games over others. It's more real it's not predatory and it's coming from a regular guy sharing his experiences. It's like what RUclips used to be 10-15 years ago.
Thank you. I appreciate the encouragement. Generally I would prefer to edit myself - cutting out all of my “ums” and stammering - it took me a while get over the idea of “perfect” videos.
I think it came from watching more conversation content - now I really don’t enjoy the fast cutting videos.
Anyways, thank you again.
Hey man, I am the same way. I have to tell myself no. I have way too many miniatures and 3D terrain. Knowing our weaknesses helps us make better decisions. You aren't a fool. You are passionate about things you enjoy. It is smart to quit playing games that causes you to struggle with purchasing every little thing. Prior to using DnD Beyond we just shared the book lol. I see the cards and folder are a great idea if that isn't feasible. Great video.
In regards to the newer games not having so much buy in or whatever we want to call it, is that they haven't been around long enough to need more. Let them exist for 50 years and see if they are still content with making no more money because their game hasn't changed since inception. However, I do agree D&D is a little excessive and for people like you and me it causes a problem. Advanced D&D pushed out quite a lot of books too for back then. Things are easier and cheaper to publish now. But yes when you are the most popular (not necessarily the best) game around, then corporations are eventually going to exploit it.
I think you are correct- most companies are doing that thing Two Face talked about in Batman, “you either die a hero, or you live long enough to become the villain.”
@@FamilyTableTop That is an awesome analogy!
I think there are valid reasons for designing spells the way you apparently dislike and it just shows that DND ain't for you and its good you found a more streamlined game and become aware that there are even more.
might I suggest
Dragonbane
Mythic Bastionland
Cairne
Forbidden Lands
The Broken Empires
Thank you for all those great suggestions. And I think you are correct, DnD might be too complex for our group.
If something player-base friendly is what you are looking for, you could a lot worse than Cairn. :)
PDF is free, print copy is sold at cost, and the guy behind it (Yochai) is great. It's a low-powered fantasy dungeon game, super quick to pick up and teach. The entire rule book is like...25 pages? There are so many free and low cost but still good quality options out there. Rules and modules alike.
Anyway, I hope Shadowdark suits you. Happy gaming!
Thank you. We had a chance to play MaisRitter for a couple hours today. It’s a similar system to Cairn. We were playing it with a younger child and she really caught on quickly - she really liked the character creation process as well.
Have you ever run a campaign with some of those simpler game systems?
@@FamilyTableTop That sounds so fun! I tried playing Mausritter with a few nephews, and it very quickly went to chaos. I wasn't expecting them to resort so quickly to violence at everything! :'D
Did you enjoy running it?
With these types of games I've only run short scenarios.
@@cassidy944 I did enjoy running, but unneeded a little more time to prepare.
Things also went off the rails for me as well, but for slightly different reasons.
@@FamilyTableTop I'm glad you enjoyed it even though it was a bit challenging. Finding the right amount of prep is so tricky! I feel like it's my white whale.
Fair points! God bless you!
I ran 5e once....for 5 sessions.......never never again. Played it quite a bit, its ok to play, but running it is horrible imho. I'm all about BRP like Call of Cthulhu and Runequest etc. Those games are amazing to run. But there are so many games out there other than the microtransaction nightmare that is D&D
What do you like about Call of Cthulhu- I have been thinking about learning the system.
@@FamilyTableTop It is scary, thats one thing. A totally different experience from more traditional games like DnD. Your characters re squishy and vunerable, fighting against ancient enemies that can easily destroy them. The game is all about the investigation, the rp, the problem solving. It is a fantastic, and very [popular game. The starter set is an incredible place to start [really good value, you get a ton for your money]. They also have one of the most incredible campaigns ever written for a TTRPG [Masks of Nyarlathotep].
@@ElwoodShort thank you for sharing about Call of Cthulhu - I had been looking at the Starter sets for it and a few other games. I usually worry that the starter sets lack value.
Thank you for telling me about Call of Cthulhu
@@FamilyTableTop Not wishing to come over as a salesman, but im a big Chaosium fan, their Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, and Pendragon Starter sets are absolutly fantastic value, crammed full of stuff. All great games as well.
A lot of these issues are the reason why I decided that 5e is more of a case by case situation with me, and if I do use any 5e parts, it's going to be *heavily* homebrewed where while it's using it's rules, it'll have something a bit more fun for me and the players once I found a group who was willing to try different systems but also will help me figure out tweaks of the classes I'm working on. And it's also why it won't be a full blown 5e game anymore as I may use Nimble for killing some of the convaluative stuff and use how Tales of the Valent does druids and rangers. But first I would probably be testing things with oneshots first to see if these ideas works because I do want to also test out the levelling system of Shadow of the Demon Lord as they also coming out with a version of their system where it's more pure fantasy instead of grimdark/horror fantasy themed. Multiclasses are more of a feature than an option in that one and some of the classes in the world I want to play with kinda weird as they don't follow 5e rules to the tea and may have to do some multiclassing.
As much as I woud *love* to do that one world in Dungeon Crawl Classics.... that world isn't set up for the chaotic nature of the spells unfortantly as there's more of both a "hard" and "soft" magic system and Dungeon Crawl Classics kinda leans into hard of the "soft" magic system where you can get different effects if you roll certian things (no spell slots, but you can lose a spell if you get a 1-11 or so) So while the spells are "long" they're more because it's a table you roll and not because it's monitzation like what you're talking about. But going back to the point, DnD leans into the "Hard" Magic system where there's rules within rules and you have to follow those rules almost as if it's an science. The only way I can think around this is if I took 5e and maybe treat something like Druid spells like Wild Magic but that may get weird. I donno yet with that one, I'm still pulling ideas for that game while I'm running my DCC game for my players who are having a blast with the dangerous world of the Cursed World I use for DCC purely. (Now if the other world can work even better in Barbarians of Lumaria.... that may be an option, but again I may have to do a oneshot playtest to see if it works)
What level do you put your players at to play test?
@@FamilyTableTop I haven't really done many play tests in the past as, like you, I'm actually pretty new to TTRPGS, but I've been stubborn and try and try again to figure out what I want out of my own games. I've maybe done one where it's been level 3 players, but that was my old game with a very wrong group. My current play test is more I'm coming in as a player and I'm testing out a homebrew class and everyone else had already been experienceing a far in game so I'm already starting at lvl 9 with my charater. I've done a Demos at a lvl 3 for DCC, but I've started play testing some of some combinding machanics from other DCC veriants at lvl 0 (Funnel) Because I was more testing the setting as a concept. I also played in a playtest to see if we wanted to do Spell points or spell slots or a combo at lvl 3 and 5 and there was going to be a test at 9 but that experiment ended for some personal reasons for some of the group.
But if you want to know what *most* people do, So far from what I understand For Dungeon Crawl Classics, 5e, And most systems, playtesting things are usually lvl 3 or higher. DCC you can do some play testing at lvl 1 and 2 because at least you get the start of things right away since it's the Funnel you have nothing since you're a peasent. For me personally, I woud be asking my playtesters what levels they would like to start at to see how things work so I can work around the story for them a bit.
That problem goes back to the start of D&D. Just a few years after Gary Gygax created the game, he discovered that he had saturated the market. Once everyone buys your rules, what more can you sell them? So they started releasing new splat books to add options for players. Thus, power creep was born.
All those splat books with options for players-The Complete [ ] Handbook series the worst culprit among them-came in 2nd Edition. Gary left TSR in 1986 while said edition was not even released until 1989. 1st Edition is fairly light on the books not counting adventure modules.
@Frustwell Absolutely. There were lots of problems under Lorraine Williams' leadership of TSR. But it started with the release of Unearthed Arcana under 1e days. WotC killed 3.5 because of all the splat books. In comparison, they have actually done a pretty good job of limiting the release of splat books under 5e. Still, that inevitable power creep finally took over with Tasha's, and now they are resetting the system with a new edition.
@@searchforsecretdoors Unearthed Arcana-a single book back then and one that was intended for DMs-is nothing like the constant UA playtest releases we have seen from Wizards. Wizards have clearly reoriented the game so it is no longer in the hands of DMs as Gary intended and instead much more player-facing and all about that power creep as that way they can sell more books to players who want more and more options when they compile those playtest releases into supplementary volumes like they did with Xanathar's and Tasha's.
When I started playing the DM and the DM only owned the rules. Including even the PHB. Throughout the 80s and 90s I played 1st Edition then 2nd Edition and never owned a copy of the PHB. Now the game is pitched as if every player needs every book with promotional materials for the upcoming revised rules saying all three are "needed" for the "full" D&D experience.
A case might be made for how greedy TSR got with Williams at the helm. But Wizards with its model of mass production and not pouring into its products the time and money and quality we see in books by publishers with not even a fraction of their earnings is a sure indication Wizards is all about the profits and the hobby a mere afterthought for them.
@@searchforsecretdoors Unearthed Arcana-a single book back then and one that was intended for DMs-is nothing like the constant UA play test releases we have seen from Wizards. Wizards have clearly reoriented the game so it is no longer in the hands of DMs as Gary intended and instead much more player-facing as that way they can sell more books to players who want more and more options when they compile those play test releases into supplementary volumes like they did with Xanathar's and Tasha's.
When I started playing the DM and the DM only owned the rules. Including even the PHB. Throughout the 80s and 90s I played 1st. Edition then 2nd. Edition and never owned a copy of the PHB. Now the game is pitched as if every player needs every book to get the "full" experience.
A case might be made for how greedy TSR got with Williams at the helm. But Wizards with its model of mass production and not pouring into its products the time and money and quality we see in books by publishers with not even a fraction of their earnings is a sure indication Wizards is all about the profits and the hobby a mere afterthought for them.
Unearthed Arcana-a single book back then and one that was intended for DMs-is nothing like the constant UA play test releases we have seen from Wizards. Wizards have clearly reoriented the game so it is no longer in the hands of DMs as Gary intended and instead much more player-facing as that way they can sell more books to players who want more and more options when they compile those play test releases into supplementary volumes like they did with Xanathar's and Tasha's.
When I started playing the DM and the DM only owned the rules. Including even the PHB. Throughout the 80s and 90s I played 1st. Edition then 2nd. Edition and never owned a copy of the PHB. Now the game is pitched as if every player needs every book to get the "full" experience.
A case might be made for how greedy TSR got with Williams at the helm. But Wizards with its model of mass production and not pouring into its products the time and money and quality we see in books by publishers with not even a fraction of their earnings is a sure indication Wizards is all about the profits and the hobby a mere afterthought for them.
Im done with dungeons and dragons. We play shadowdark now. Far more fun
Yeah I decided many months ago that WoTC wasn’t getting anymore of my money. And they’ve gotten a lot. I went down the Old School Essentials route and I’m loving that. Glad you like Shadowdark and are having fun. Because when playing games isn’t fun then it’s just another job. And nobody needs that 😂
@@shazamvondoom325 been enjoying exploring the OSR system and Shadowdark setting. I was looking into getting the OSE books today, but I wasn’t sure if they would be helpful with OSR games - do you know if the two are cross compatible?
@@FamilyTableTop I mean, the main selling point of OSR games is that they should be B/X compatible. I don't know specifically Shadowdark but it shouldn't change much. Maybe Shadowdark has ascending AC? In that case you will need to perform some conversions when using old modules which have only descending AC (and/or THAC0)
Well said, sir! This was an exhausting rant and I feel absolutely the same way. I am burned out and sick of D&D game/marketing design.
I worked so hard, adding new house rules, my items, monsters, and mechanics and making the game faster, more dramatic, and story-driven even adding hardcore elements. Stopped hp growth after 3-5 levels (depending on groups). I ended up with a completely different system...
Started to ask myself. So much effort, money and headaches... Is it worth it?
This ruleset just frustrates DM and does not help them at all.
Finally, I switched to other systems and enjoyed DMming games and story-driven one-shots, campaigns with friends and having much more fun. Never coming back.
@@JPdrrraws what systems did you switch to?
You covered a lot that many people criticizing WoTC don't usually get to. Subscribed!
@@PuttingOnTheFoil thank you so much.
Do you play DnD?
@@FamilyTableTop Yes! I'm very lucky to have a weekly group of great people to play with. I did run a game at home too, for a few years, but it's on hiatus currently.
Fully understand. I have tons of money invested into 5E, all official releases up to approx Spelljammer, 1-2 beyond, everything from Kobold Press, many other 3rd Party releases via kickstarter...not to mention Fantasy Grounds *sigh* :) However, between WotC's behavior the last months/year, the direction of their game (both, as you explain the service/online game but also rules-wise), I essentially gave up and froze my 5E DM plans indefinately. We are now trying out other systems (playing Earthdawn, running Fallout, eyeing Shadowdark) and I dont see myself going back the next couple of years if ever. Very disappointing :(
I’m so sorry to read such a familiar story. As you have seen, we did the same thing. I think I just got too excited because my son was getting off of video games and he was starting to focus on playing real games.
You mentioned fallout and Earthdawn… could you tell me about those? Is the fallout the skirmish wargame? Or is it a TTRPG?
I know nothing about Earthdawn.
Shadowdark is excellent. I was really worried about switching systems and our first game was a little shaky, but things went really well!
Great video man, i think you’re on to something
@@kyleharder3654 thank you so much.
Did you actually ever GM a game ? How is it you complain so much about a game which concepts you seem to have a unique POV on, similar to a FlatEarther who believes to have found the perfect exaplanation why the government is lying to us ? The game is focussed on players. It's not a boardgame. You are supposed to guide your players throught the encounters YOU designed.
If the players waltz through your encounter, you didn't loose. Your players did play an effective game. If your players only use their abilities off their sheets, you don't offer them anything else. It seems the best option. And if you 'metagame-DM' you are DM-ing. You don't ask you players for a perception check if you DON'T want them to find anything. You are metagaming because you ARE at the center of the game. You are designing, redesigning and interpreting.
Where is the fun in having a player roll some obscure history roll they only can manage when the dice get lucky. You should place a hint for someone with a history background - the PC you know has a good history skill - and throw in some extra if they roll great. Your game keeps going and your player is feeling good, since they used that 'useless' skill and could stand in the spotlight beacuse of it.
Also, are you aware the GM is a player ? You can use everything in the PHB. You can use everything in every book ever. You can even make new stuff up. In a way, the PHB and all the player content is only there to make sure the players have guidelines they can use when being faced with incompenent and ignorant GMs It's all they can use to make their world graspable. The GM does not need a rulebook.
It seems to me your issues are not with D&D, but with the concept of player-enagement. And I agree, when faced with lesser options on the sheet, players tend to use more real-life options. But it's also true that once such an option did work, you could also write it down as an ability on the sheet, since players will use the same 'trick' whenever faced with a similar option.
There is a reason why the 10ft pole is a default on every Fantasy-RPG equipment list ever.
😂 LOL, this guy totally gets me - I’m not quite a flat-earther, but I am a total conspiracy theorist.
D&D has always been a niche game. The fifth edition Dungeon Master's (DM) guide from 2014 does not lay a solid foundation for new players to understand how a game is designed to be run. There are elements in some of the pre-made adventures, like the Tomb of Annahilation, that can be very confusion for DM and players that don't understand or appreciate the classic Dungeon Crawl experience.
That makes sense. I had a lot of trouble running the Watersdeep Dragon Heist.
DCC. You're welcome.
@@GenreBGoode is it a hard system to learn?
@@FamilyTableTop It is a relatively complex NSR game, that suffers from the same power issues that 5e does breaking down around 5th level. It is obviously easier to learn than 5e though. It is mostly played for their 0-level/1st level funnels, that are really fun.
The magic system is different and fun, but overly complex and really over the top and weird.
Dungeon Crawl Classics is SO much fun. You just the need the core rule book.
Fun, fast, furious. Seriously, buy the book. It's such a bargain.
The classes are so much fun to play, warriors actually kick butt and feel lie Conan.
DCC. Do it.
Just print/write your own spell cards, no need to buy them if you don't want to.
You also don't need anything more than the phb to play 5e. Just make everything else up. Homebrew your own classes, races, monsters and make your own adventures, and expand the game to what you and your players enjoy. That being said I don't like defending WotC/Hasbro so, just play anything else.
Regarding the written adventures, you're right that most of them are pretty bad. There are a few exceptions, e.g. I really enjoyed running Avernus and Strahd (have not tried the reprint). This seems to be pretty common with pre-written adventures, but I'm thinking that's because players never think like the writers do. Even when running other systems and adventures I need to constantly pull stuff out of my ass because my players did, or said something unexpected, that neither I nor the writers had thought about. It's part of the game.
Go get some introduction boxes for other systems and go ham. Then review them on the channel.
@@crax83 that’s an excellent idea. Thank you.
What TTrpgs do you enjoy?
@@FamilyTableTop I'm the Call of Cthulhu guy from the other videos. 😉
On another note, you don't have to defend your dislike for 5e/WotC/Hasbro. There are already way too many grifters out there on the f*ck WotC train for it to be interesting in the long run, imo.
I'd much prefer to hear which games you do enjoy and why, and maybe reviews on systems you've tried, maybe successful (and unsuccessful) house rules, homebrews and so on. It's way more fun with a positive ttrpg community than one built on distaste for a specific product.
@@crax83 thank you for that insight. I
Was thinking the same thing - I don’t want to get fixated on DnD like someone going through a bad breakup.
I keep looking at Call of Cthulhu books at the game store. Your comments in the previous videos have piqued my interest.
A great way to show your players other games to jump-ship into is to show them RUclips reviews of the games you're considering. I personally use Dave Thaumavore's channel.
Oh, that’s a great idea. -seems so simple to. Thank you for the suggestion.
You really should look up Frostgrave. It's a skirmish wargame that is mini agnostic. Has some roleplaying elements, and is quite fun. It's worth a shot
@@jeffreykershner440 I have that game- I’m still learning the game though.
Haha, welcome to the hobby, dude! There are so many non-corporate ttrpgs to explore. Your video is like watching Neo see the Matrix, it’s great.
@@StephenDukenski Woah!
Shadowdark is excellent! I also love EZD6, it's name says it all.
@@deanlol I have EzD6, I just haven’t taken it seriously because I thought it would be too simple to run a longer campaign in…
Have you tried the system for longer games?
@@FamilyTableTop no but I ran an EZD6 Wasted World one shot and one of the players implored me to run a campaign. At the time I didn't have time to do it. The players LOVED it and so did I. It was so quick and simple. He has some solutions for longer campaigns.
This has been the case since 2e (started in '90). I remember all the class books, race books, specialty books, spells & powers, etc, etc. Though 3e tried to clean it to a point, 3.5+ blew up the same way afterward.
I moved into OSR games in '05 and loved it (C&C, C&C, Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy) and have loved it, even after a 4+ year stint of playing/running 5e. With the coming D&D:VTT edition it's been interesting to see a new generation realize this 20, 30 years later. :)
I wish you the best moving forward.
Also, for Superhero light system games may I suggest looking at Crusaders RPG (marvel style) and Prowlers & Paragons (WEG DC style). They are open enough to kind of expand out hero ideas.
Is Crusaders a super hero fantasy game? How does it play?
@@FamilyTableTop Crusaders is a Superhero game, similar to FACERIP Marvel RPG from TSR but more random in hero generation like Villians and Vigilanties was. You can do fantasy with it but it is much less D&D.
If you want a superhero game, Godbound is another solid choice.
I bought the castles and crusades rules back in 2012 and I’m still playing out of that book! And the if you bought into that system today we would be using the same rules! Love those Trolls.
Do you know where to get a hard bound book for C&C?
Oh if you happen to be a vet they give a great discount fyi.
I'm about to start my first new D&D group since the OGL. Mostly because of name recognition. My session 0 notes are PHB 2014 rules, no feats, no multi classing. I'll see how it goes. The game I've been GMing for the last 2 years is Shadowrun 3e. Everyone who has played it seem to like it. Next year, I'm starting Traveller or Stars Without Number, with my face to face group. Should be interesting.
Will it be difficult for you to transition from Shadowrun to D&D?
@FamilyTableTop I've played DM/GM a lot of both. I'm one of those GMs who likes to try different systems and settings. My face to face group are happy to play any game I put forward. I have a player who has DM D&D, he's over it too. I have met a few players who are D&D only. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wants to play D&D are welcome, but I'm not DMing for the most part.
To be fair, any rpg system can become bloated with add ons and expansions. As an obsessive collector of indie fantasy RPGs, I’m certainly guilty of spending too much time and money on games that I will probably never play. That said, when I got back into the hobby a few years ago, after a 15 year hiatus, the only 5e product I got was the free PDF starter rules. I liked the core mechanics and just built everything else around it using my old Palladium Fantasy books. So you really don’t HAVE TO buy all of the other stuff that WotC are hocking. Of course, now I’m running two campaigns in Shadowdark and even though there are already too many expansions for that system out there, I’ve curbed my impulses and I just run the core rules with Cursed Scroll #1, foregoing the need to go down the rabbit hole. And Ive never been happier with my gaming experience.
@@edwardromero3580 that’s great. How do you like the Cursed Scroll?
@@FamilyTableTop All of them are great. I just don’t use the others in my campaigns.
You are not a fool. We all have our vices. I collect more game systems, supplements and boardgames than I play them lol.
But i agree with others that you've come to a conclusion that takes many people much longer to discover. Back in the day it was a slow burn for some of us who slowly wanted more realism and thought more rules & more charts was the answer. As I got older, I began to appreciate simplicity... and after playing for 40+ years can make an educated guess on how to handle situations with fairness and consistency... the players make the game great... we just adjudicate and adjust our outline/plans accordingly
@@RobbyMaQ well said. After 40 years, do you have a favorite game system?
@@FamilyTableTop Probably Basic D&D with some homebrew sprinkled in. Simple, quick & easy.
Dude, you are preaching to the choir here man. I am an old school 1st/2nd Edition player and for me when 3rd edition came out I started feeling this way. I can stomach 3.5/Pathfinder 1st Ed, but nothing beyonf that. 4th Ed was WAY worse then this, and 5E still has that 'video game simulation' elemnets to it I do not care for!
Which edition/game system do you play now?
For Marvel Champions card game, you can play it solo. That is how I play it. In fact, I am more likely to get a game that has a solo mode.
Do you also enjoy playing multiplayer?
Play Old School AD&D.
I played AD&D innthe 80s.
It sucked. It has always sucked.
@@NemoOhd20 what did you like in the 80s?
Ad&d is great, but for a newcomer who likes more combat rules, I would recommend Hyperboria 3 instead. The rules are great, simpler and much easier to parse.
Sorry you had a bad experience in the golden age of D&D, where everyone else were having fun with the greatest modules D&D ever produced in the early 80’s.
@@NemoOhd20 I spent a decade stretching from the mid 80s to the mid 90s playing 1st. Edition and 2nd. Edition and played some of the most memorable campaigns I ever played in using them. 5E is garbage. Even the physical books are garbage. A multibillion dollar company and it can't even put a fraction of the time and money into its books that smaller publishers do into theirs.
DMs being a glorified server administrator is a really good metaphor
@@duncbot9000 it’s sort of how I have felt playing 5e.
@@FamilyTableTop I agree. I've been DMing 5e for years and it feels way more that way since we switched to Virtual Tabletop 😅
@@duncbot9000 do you still enjoy DMing?
@@FamilyTableTop I enjoy spending time with my friends and having fun. I will admit I find something that frustrates me at least every third session. (Broken rules that don't come up every game, confusing rules, things I need to remind my players or say "that's not how this works", needing to buy the books multiple times in order to be able to use them on different platforms, broken magic items rules, encounter balance doesn't exist... You understand)
If you want to critique 5e, at least critique the real flaws of the systems. It is a tactical combat game, which means it has predefined choices, complex rules, etc. Because that is what is needed to have a tactical combat game. You may prefer to play a creative combat game, a rule light system, or whatever. But that only means 5e is not the type of game you want to play.
There are people who want the complex rules and, for them, 5e is a good game. And there are people who LOVE complex rules and they play pathfinder.
I know it is easy to join the 5e hate and farm the OSR aficionados views and approval. But at least be fair with your criticism.
Do you like 5e?
As a comment below points out, you've escaped the matrix. WotC can provide you with a tasty steak. However you should consider finding/exploring simpler TTRPGs where the game hasn't been meta'ed to death by players min/maxing. OSR is one path, Shadowdark is another, a lot more options exist including ultra simple game designs such as ezD6.
@@TonyJ1776 do you have a favorite?
@@FamilyTableTop I have several. From your video it sounds like you want less brain clutter (as well as less of a cash drain). Find a TTRPG with simple rules and on a rules budget. Find something "player facing". Become a story teller with a canvas the players can help define. You don't have to be the rules lawyer that needs to memorize and understand everything about the game. Check out alternatives with free pdfs, Dungeon Crawl Classics is very popular (DCC), Cairn is very small, Blades in the Dark is a D6 system and an entirely different type of setting from the typical high fantasy variety like DnD 5e. Personally if I were playing DnD I would be playing something more retro like AD&D, maybe 2e or Old-School Essentials (my preference would be Advanced).
@@TonyJ1776 do you have a current gaming group?
Maybe its because I now play PF2E and absolutely love the complexity I dont think 5E is complex at all. Quite the opposite. Everything is dumbed down and too flexible. Now, the complexity of pf2e is fine simply because you can play 100% for free. They didnt do it to sell stuff but to make the game more interesting and balanced. It isnt perfect but I find it way more fun. WotC has become terrible and money grubbing. Lucky is an example of something that is shit in 5e. Yes, as a DM you can ban it but that feat even existing doesnt make sense. Its like they thought "how can we remove any tension from any trap or failed save". PF2e kinda has a similar abilitie but you have to level up to get it and its a once a day ability or an armor piece that only allows attack and saves at a cost. If you reroll it then an enemy gets a reroll agains you. Balanced and great. Not 3 uses which is insane.,
Do you have a regular ongoing game in PF2E?
@@FamilyTableTop I do every other weekend. I have 5 players currently.
@@FamilyTableTop Why? Are you interested in trying it? I would be willing to run the beginner box if you want to try it out. We have a table top and gaming discord going and I use foundryvtt for games.
The great thing about DnD is you can stop anytime and still have fun. You can just get the phb and have fun or buy all the things and have fun.
I like 5e but I don't think I will be buying any of the new stuff.
Why won’t you be buying the new stuff?
Now you understand why WoTC hates older players. They know we'll spot and call them on their BS. And what's worse, we'll call attention to it.
Makes sense.
Not just older customers they hate all of their customers
I play 5e without WoTC. Tales of the Valiant from Kobold Press. Never looking back.
@@GMToolbox is tales of the Valliant similar to DnD 5e?
@@FamilyTableTop It is made by Kobold Press which has been making 5e content for D&D for years. Books like Tome of Beasts and Tome of Heroes which are very well done and popular books. Tales of the Valiant is their own version of 5.5e. While WoTC made 2024 DnD, KP made ToV and its a much better version of 5e. So if you want to keep playing 5e without WoTC this is the system for you. I have been doing a lot of videos on it if you want to take a look and our curious.
Good insight my friend