Investigating the Messiah Before Jesus
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- In this interview with Derek Lambert, host of @MythVisionPodcast , I discuss the idea of the leader of the Dead Sea Scrolls, known as the "Teacher of Righteousness," and his identification with the idea of a Suffering Messiah, based on the Suffering Servant Hymns in Isaiah. We then compare this to the presentation of Jesus in Mark, our earliest gospel.
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I wish the historical information, of multiple Messiahs, were more widely known. It's awesome the way you are presenting it ( and presenting it in other videos and teachings as well)
ANYBODY can be 'a' Messiah. Prophecy is NOT a wait and see 'event' - they can be fulfilled in one of 2 ways... 'wait' or 'works'. Use Ninevah as an example.
By the way... why hasn't anybody noticed that Ninevah means 'house of fish' and takes 3 days to cross? In fact the Book of Jonah is like a mini bible... has the 'tree' in it, that whithers in the night and so on.
A 'son of man' is NOT always a complimentary term, see Job 25: 6, and Numbers 23: 19. Son of Man is a 'barrier' in one's relationship with God... one that is transcended only by 'faith'.
No way any believers are going to allow equal footing for other messiahs. They are all about bigging up their own and dissing all others. And not just with messiahs and prophets, but with gods too. Yes, there were plenty of all of those, and when you see that the Bible props up one particular god and one particular messiah, and you wonder what happened to all the others, you realise the Bible is propaganda.
There is one book that exposes how the church hides parts of their Bible by mistranslating it. “Jesus’ Biological Father was Joseph: According to the New Testament” by DS WAGGONER. Even just reading the few free “sample” pages exposes one of their cover-ups. Quite revealing. Goes to show, we have to deep dive study, and ask the taboo questions, to get to the bottom of things.
The way ideas and ideologies evolve..
Happiness and pleasure, you gentlemen, bring to my life. Thank you
So rad!!! Thank you!🙏
It's amazing how belief can cause people to think they must be important. Same as today we have a plethora of empty vessels making much noise thinking they are prophets. We need to use them as examples, and look back to a time of even greater ignorance, and realize what was afoot back then, ie that the folks to whom we attach so much importance, thinking they are 'holy' (whatever that buys you compared to the price of a coffee), were just like us, not special at all, and full of eccentric foibles.
Because that's the exact opposite of belief. And its meaningless.
Did you prophecy the pandemic? Do you have a 12 year old video that shows the 'death curve'? Have you prayed for anyone on their deathbed and their incurable disease was cured? Have you a hidden interpretation of scriptures that will fulfill Isaiah 52: 15? I have a long list bud... and yes, my father was a carpenter, and my name is African - Musa'nte.
And the next eclipse will draw an X over the town where I spent 3 days in jail - as a 'thief in the night'.
The suffering servant is ANYONE that is born of sin, their own and that of others against them.
Evil and darkness are merely unredeemed 'light'. Nothing is created without reason. Job knew it, so did Joseph, bad can be used for 'good'. Isaiah 45: 7... numbered amongst the transgressors... simple.
And yes... I am just like 'you'.
😊I
greetings @James Tabor , first thanks for your work,you have a older video and at the start of said video you shared a few books as a suggestion we should have, the first book you flashed you said " its not like everyone had a dss bible layin around" and i could not tell but it looked to be not english, the 2nd book was vermes 7th edition, and the 3rd was "the dead sea scrolls study edition" you showed the cover but the quality didnt allow me to see it clearly, my question is when i search for it i can only find it in 2 volumes, the florentina book you mentioned make sure we get the verion with hebrew in it aswell, was yours a single volume or is it indeed a 2 volume set? and if possible a link to a reliable source to purchace it, again thnks for your time .i did see the vermes edition on your site but i did not see the study addition by florentino.
MaShiach means annointed". When was John the Baptizer anointed?
Great study. I believed for a ling time that the Catholic Trinity doctrine was not right. YaHWaH tells us over and over that He "is THE ONE EL and there is no other".
Yahushua is no 'mere man"- He is the ONLY perfect righteous man. He has earned the Honors YaH has bestowed upon him by hearing and doing every instruction of Abba perfectly.
He is our Prophet and our Priest and our soon to be King- our MaShiach. HalleluYaH! 📖🕎👑
Thank you Dr Tabor for your time and teachings.
Doctor Tabor, if there are TWO Saviors, why aren't they both in YaH's Heaven sitting on TWO thrones?
I am enjoying listening to. Your teachings. I have so many questions after years of studying.
YaH bless you more as you have blessed your students.
Shalom🕊️🖖🏻
Do you think it's likely that Jesus is supposed to be understood as a character that "knows" he's a character in a story? And that the author represents God? Sort of like breaking the 4th wall type of thing?
It is only natural that Jesus would pick up the "suffering servant" world view especially through the apocalyptic genre shared by the righteous teacher and John the baptizer for example. I've never understood why this is considered problematic.
It is problematic to assume that Jesus was on board with this, since we know from Dr Denis McDonald the gospel authors borrowed stories, this is called Homeric Literary Mimesis, so one can assume they did the same with the righteous teacher
I see alot of this rejection/chosen one motif with Paul in his writings as well, is there a chance he saw himself as the second messiah in terms of the priestly messiah motif. Some 2nd Temple era Jews thought there would be two messiahs, one kingly and one priestly. Is there a chance that Paul thought of Jesus as the kingly messiah of the line of David and he (Paul) as the priestly messiah of the line of Aron? Just some food for thought.
When will you esteem me so I can explain some of this stuff to you? Just askin'.
Redeemed from the 'pit' is 'salvation by grace'. Obedience (staff) brings blessing. Rebellion (rod) brings suffering... faithful wounds and scouraging. The 'many' are those who are 'evil'... legion - for we are 'many'.
Learn some Hebrew... it helps.
Have you ever considered that Qumran is ancient Betha bara where John the Baptist and his disciples held there ministry?
Why is it unusual/noteworthy that the Teacher would appropriate Isaiah's prophecies? That's what self-proclaimed prophets, delusional as they may be, do.
Not too sure what Dr James Tabor conclusion is from this discovery, my conclusion is literary mimesis, from what Dr Denis Mcdonald said when it comes the homeric literary mimesis, i see no difference in this either, i am curious if the Gospel authors and Paul were Essenes
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 📜 *Introduction to the Teacher in the Dead Sea Scrolls*
- Introduction to exploring the life and times of the "teacher" from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
- Emphasis on the Messianic movement in the Holy Land that predates Jesus.
00:26 🕍 *Concept of 'Judaism' in the Hellenistic Period*
- Discussion about the nature of Judaism during the Hellenistic period.
- Reference to various texts including the Apocrypha and the influence of the Dead Sea Scrolls on understanding this era.
02:14 🔍 *Dead Sea Scrolls' Influence on Understanding Ancient Religious Views*
- The Dead Sea Scrolls provide new insights into the religious and cosmological views of the time.
- Emphasis on beliefs about heavenly realms, Satan, and demonic forces.
03:40 🌐 *The Influence of Hellenistic Thought on Judaism*
- Discussion on how Hellenistic thought influenced Jewish beliefs and practices.
- Exploration of the expanded universe concept and its impact on religious thought.
05:02 🌌 *Enochian Judaism and Gnostic Influence*
- Introduction to the concept of Enochian Judaism and its connection to Gnosticism.
- Discussion on cosmological assumptions and existential questions in the Hellenistic world.
06:13 🧐 *Investigating the Human Place in the Cosmos*
- Exploration of human existence and place within the cosmos in Hellenistic thought.
- Consideration of the questions of life, death, and rebirth in religious texts.
07:08 📚 *Course Offerings on Dead Sea Scrolls and Gospel of Mark*
- Promotion of courses focusing on the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospel of Mark.
- Encouragement for students to explore the connections between these ancient texts.
08:17 💭 *The Teacher's Interpretation of Suffering in Isaiah*
- Analysis of how the teacher from the Dead Sea Scrolls interprets his own suffering through the lens of Isaiah's suffering servant.
- Discussion on the teacher's possible identification with Messianic prophecies.
10:18 📜 *Teacher Hymns from the Dead Sea Scrolls*
- Examination of specific hymns believed to be written by or about the teacher.
- Focus on the teacher's self-perception as a unique, divine figure.
11:49 🤔 *Teacher's Self-Consciousness and Messianic Role*
- Insight into the teacher's self-consciousness as a Messianic figure.
- Discussion on how the teacher sees himself in light of scriptural prophecies.
13:13 🔍 *The Teacher's Reflections on Suffering and Glory*
- Analysis of the teacher's reflections on his own suffering and path to glory.
- Comparison with New Testament themes and the concept of resurrection.
21:11 📚 *Emphasis on Reading the Dead Sea Scrolls*
- Highlighting the importance of actively reading and studying the Dead Sea Scrolls.
- The course provides translations and extensive discussions on the core scrolls.
21:38 🕵️ *Investigating the Career and Fate of the Teacher*
- Focus on the career and possible fate of the teacher from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
- Questions about his death, whether natural or caused by persecution.
23:13 💭 *Exploring Various Messianic Figures and Concepts*
- Discussion on different Messianic figures and the concept of a final Messiah.
- Examination of Messianic Psalms and how they relate to the teacher and Jesus.
24:04 📖 *Book Recommendation on Pre-Christian Messiah*
- Recommendation of Michael Wise's book about a pre-Christian Messiah.
- Exploration of the teacher's exalted status and comparison with Jesus.
25:37 🤔 *The Teacher’s Approach to Suffering and Enemies*
- Analysis of the teacher's approach to suffering and his attitudes towards enemies.
- Comparison with Jesus’ teachings on loving and forgiving enemies.
26:08 🗡️ *Contrast Between Armed Resistance and Passive Endurance*
- Differentiating between armed resistance and passive endurance in Messianic movements.
- Discussion on the possibility of the teacher and Jesus expecting heavenly exaltation.
27:03 ✨ *Theological Implications of Paul’s Expectations of Glorification*
- Exploring Apostle Paul's expectations of heavenly glorification for followers of Jesus.
- Analysis of Paul's teachings in Romans 8 about suffering leading to glorification.
28:16 🔍 *Analyzing Morton Smith’s Interpretation of the Teacher*
- Discussion of Morton Smith's view on the teacher's self-conception and heavenly throne.
- Emphasis on the teacher's claim of a unique, exalted status.
29:41 🌍 *Revelation’s Connection to the Dead Sea Scrolls*
- Analyzing the connections between the Book of Revelation and the Dead Sea Scrolls.
- Exploring the two Messiah motif and apocalyptic themes in Revelation.
31:39 ⚔️ *The Two Messiah Concept in Biblical Texts*
- Discussion on the two Messiah concept found in Zechariah and its application in Christian thought.
- Examination of how this motif is reflected in various New Testament passages.
33:02 🌐 *Cosmic and Eschatological Expectations in Early Christianity*
- Exploration of cosmic and eschatological expectations in early Christianity.
- Insight into how these expectations shape Christian beliefs about the afterlife and the kingdom of God.
34:34 🌟 *Zechariah's Prophecy and its Messianic Implications*
- Analysis of Zechariah's prophecy and its interpretation as a Messianic prediction.
- Discussion on how these prophecies are integrated into Christian eschatology.
36:09 🤔 *Realism and Symbolism in Apocalyptic Expectations*
- Realistic assessment of apocalyptic expectations and their fulfillment.
- Contrast between historical outcomes and symbolic interpretations in religious texts.
37:30 📜 *Dead Sea Scrolls' Vision of a Transformed World*
- The Dead Sea Scrolls’ vision of a world transformed by the rule of the Sons of Light.
- Discussion on the expectation of eternal life and a new creation in these texts.
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You're a 'good unit'... definitely messiah material.
@@ChrisMusante - that's actually a bit funny considering my latest video where I talk about my past wanting to be Messiah :)
Thank you.
I wonder if the increase in Hellenistic thought caused orthodox judiasm to examine the Torah for prophetic texts to reassert authority. That would make that impending messiah time more compelling, and combat Hellenization, which was the chief religious antagonist at that time. You don't need reason, he's coming. Suspension of disbelief is the first step believers take.
If it's important enough to write down, the scribes would be talking about it among themselves. The information spreads and it becomes generational memory for a community. The birth of Jesus is not that far off. The teacher could be a prophet, another type of John the Baptist figure for the community he lived in.
"There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written." John 21: 25
Jesus is 24/7 365 days a year and I doubt He was on some extended holiday prior to His birth.
This is on the lines of Richard Carriers thesis (that most historians seem not to pay attention to): Many Jews of the second temple period were convinced that the Messiah or chosen one was sacrificed in the heavens “ according to the scriptures”. This is why Paul never talks of Jesus ministry; and why he talks of “when Christ comes” NOT when he “comes back” or “returns”. Mythology explains most of the data.
Mark simply humanised this mythical Messiah.
It was wonderful to be on the livestream yesterday, but I botched my question. I appreciate your answer, but I don't care about modern evangelicals, I wanted to know more about the authors of the DSS, in relation to their messianic expectations, from the true teacher to the end of the Bar Kokbah revolt? I know the Pharisees became the rabbinical system and later the Sadducees became Karites, but what of the Zealots of Qumran, did all of them die at Masada?
So far as we have records they were scattered and likely faded away, mainly due to Rome assuming more power than ever for the next 200 years, rather than the Kittim being utterly defeated! The only survival of these ideas beyond Bar Kochba might have been weaker versions of some of the elements among the Ebionites and Desposyni. Eisenman has argued that these elements had a great influence on the formation of Isloam...they tended to move SE...transJordan and Arabia...
@@JamesTaborVideos Thank you, Dr. Tabor!
How do false prophets and messiahs get valorized? Their deathd are redeptive ;-)
Is Dr James Catholic?
No, He is Christian Orthodox
the ' existence' of the 'sons of god, the elohim' splitted into two versions ; a bad, wicked version of hardened demons who were stiffened in their arrogance, the worthless belials. On the other hand the lesser gods, who remained loyal and zealous to the good case : serving and protecting mankind and maintaining the creation. (a similar role as later was picked up by the christian saints). But first this role was applied to the julian ceasars and then more and more to a specific side-branch; the ' chosen ' suffering claudians, the offspring of Drusus (Andrew the elder), the son of Alpheus. Called ones, Nazerites or nazoreans, nicolaitans as the bible tells us. Led by Zacharias barachai , the rightious teacher aka Zebedeus and his twin sons ; John the dipper (phillippus) and James the lesser (stephanus). Special benjaminites (Herodians / Tiberians) who were predestinated by God to rule the real faithfull believers through the apocalypse. For a depiction search YT : Huqoq elephant mosaic (sons of light versus sons of darkness).
How about re-analyzing the really problematic traditional dating of "Jesus": maybe this wasn't "a Messiah before Jesus" ... maybe this was the actual, historical "Jesus". ...
You, think, is key, where is the proof, scrolls. To support the. Other,,,, messiah and his teachings,,,
The idea of the Messiah, even the word itself, MSH, has its origins in the Pharaoh cult. In Ancient Middle Egyptian, MSH means literally "crocodile" because the Pharaoh was anointed with crocodile oil. So, literally, the Pharaoh at this point became a Messiah and received his 5 titles, among them was "Son of God RA" (Sa Ra or later AMON) and "he who gives eternal life" :Even together with the name of the Pharaoh, like here: "Ankh-em-ma'at-Djed-ef-Ra," Pharaoh Djed-ef-Ra, owner or giver of eternal life. So, the Roman emperors from Augustus simply borrowed these titles from the Pharaohs: from Sa Ra to Caesar Divi Filius. And here you have it, the emperor cult.
!!!!!
Read Isaiah 44:5
If the psalms are prophetic why can’t we assume it’s all referring to Israel and not a particular person. I still hold to the belief that the synoptic gospels are fictional historical allegory. Yeshua is an allegorical figure for the messianic movement that ended with the physical nation of Israel destroyed, and the resurrection being the rabbinic movement. The Jesus character was not an actual person but a metaphorical character that represented Israel.
Whatever the case, the God of the Bible treats the Israelite people exactly the same way it treats Jesus. Promising the world, but being nowhere to be found when the trouble starts.
Religion sounds like one great big apologetics for the idea of God. Every time the imaginary God or Creator of any religion makes a mistake or gets it wrong, certain members of that religion immediately go about making excuses for it. We did it way back then, we do it now. And these apologetics eventually build up a body of “holy” literature or beliefs.. When will the human species grow up and accept we got it wrong, we had a bad idea. We’ve been able to do it (mostly) with things like magic, astrology, alchemy, ghosts, spiritual mediums, elves and fairies, witches and warlocks, etc. Why can’t we do it with religion?
The Lord Jesus is The Prophet Foretold by Moses
Deuteronomy 18:15-19 - The Foretold Prophet
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
The LORD told Moses that he was going to raise up a Prophet from the midst of Israel who will be like Moses in that he would speak unto the people ALL the God shall command.
The Lord Jesus is/was that prophet foretold by Moses...
John 5:39-47 Jesus of Nazareth tells the Jews, He is That Prophet
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
The Lord Jesus was getting challenged by the Judaeans for things that he had done and said. When they he questioned him, above is the answer he gave in John 5:39-47.
Later, in John 7 the Judaeans marvelled at his doctrine - how could he say and know these things? They were answered by Jesus of Nazareth...
John 7:15-24
15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.
22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Then after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and being seen by more that 500 brethren this occurred in the book of Acts...
Acts 2:14, 22-32 The Apostle Peter Explains to the people..
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
And in Acts 3:19-23 The Apostle Peter Confirms JESUS as THAT PROPHET
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Then Stephen the Evangelist also confirmed Jesus of Nazareth as THE PROPHET spoken by Moses...
ACTS 7:37-41
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
As THAT PROPHET THE LORD JESUS spake not his own words, but words that came from THE FATHER, THE GOD OF ISRAEL.
Great content, but the constant pop-up messages on the screen are very distracting, so gave up watching after a few minutes.
No not Derek