@@keemarie1-- During the Miller hearing for Ethan, the prison psychiatrist testified that Ethan DID want them to find the gun. He was relieved when he was finally in the office and the school had called his parents, because he thought for sure the next step would be the adults searching his backpack and finding the gun. He wanted somebody to stop him. He had been asking his parents for help with the hallucinations he was having, they had been downplaying it, and laughing it off. He wrote "help me" and the other things on the math paper hoping somebody would see that also. He figured if the school found a gun there would be no way they couldn't take him out of school and get him sent to a psych hospital. Granted, Ethan could've also just let everybody know in the office that he had a gun in his backpack, and was thinking about shooting others. That would've also gotten him an expedited trip to the psychiatric hospital, and four other kids would still be alive.
That’s one of the biggest issues with schools: they expect school staff to discipline their kid when that’s the job of the parents. They were advised to take him to seek some sort of mental health the same day but said they were too busy. Defense attorney wants to know why the school didn’t check his backpack - his parents were there why didn’t THEY check his backpack? Trying to turn everything on the school when his parents knew he was dangerous.
But they lived with him! Weren’t they paying attention? He had dead birds in his room! He told them he was seeing things, etc. if they’d been paying attention this would have alarmed them!
Yes they were paying attention. The thought he was depressed. Lots of teenagers are depressed. This guy just said they let their kids come in late to go deer hunting with guns the parents gave them. So it's ok for other parents to give their children had guns
May not be their job to discipline... Although I do disagree with that to an extent because if they act up on school grounds, they do indeed need to do something about it. But it is a fact that it is their job to keep children safe when they leave their homes and enter that school campus! They failed to do that!
@JaiCahill-cd1uw they had already gotten a call about the picture of bullets. And they were the only adults in the room who were aware that he very easily COULD have a gun in his book bag.
@@debbysalmon2498Giving a child a gun as a gift is different than having a gun-educated adult responsibly teaching their children how to use one properly. I wouldn’t do it myself but at this point, it’s not illegal.
This “dean” carried the backpack across campus and even commented how heavy it was. Then he sees drawings of guns, “blood everywhere” and doesn’t have an inkling to peek inside?! AMAZING.
Takes more than book knowledge to be categorized as smart…Still society doesn’t see it that way and continues to reward the ultra educated who fail us time and again…And I am educated.
I’m sick to my core. Every school from K-12 has strict protocols. I’ve seen elementary school students suspended for MUCH less, things that in no way have to do with violence! Parents are to immediately take their children home if the school calls. In this case, there’s a student drawing a gun and writing disturbing messages… an immediate suspension should have been put into place, along with referrals to 24 hour psychiatric services! Backpack and locker checks are not a violation of privacy. Students know these things can be checked randomly. WHY WAS NOTHING CHECKED; locker, backpack, body. The Dean of students had the backpack in his hands! At the very least, check it for more disturbing drawings or writings! The gun would have been discovered and none of this would have happened! I’m floored, regardless of what their concern was ( suicidal thoughts)… it is the schools job to protect ALL students. If the irresponsible parents couldn’t fit it in their hectic schedules to take care of their kid, he should have had in-office school that day! WAKE UP AND KEEP ALL OF OUR CHILDREN SAFE! I’m torn up about the poor decision making.
@@_______ACE_______ Any student or person for that matter can gain access to weapons' whether from home or elsewhere. With all of the history of mass school shootings that occurred prior to this point - NO EXCUSE, the book bag, locker and anything else that student owned should have been checked- its called common sense. The ball was dropped on the end of ALL adults that could have used common sense.
@@_______ACE_______ I looked it up and this is what it says: “752.913 Potential self-harm and potential harm or criminal acts directed at school students, school employees, or schools; establishment of program for receiving reports and information from public; hotline; operational and administrative oversight; report; referral to community mental health services program psychiatric crisis line; source of information on available community mental health resources and contacts; notice; biannual update of emergency contact information.” So the school counselor failed to make an immediate referral to psychiatric crisis services!!!!
As a teacher, they had reason to search his bag. Mom is guilty as all get out, but that school should have searched his bag. For Ethan's safety and others.
Agree…my backpack was searched in middle school (I’m in my 40’s now) by two police officers in the principals office…because it was rumored I was selling candy at school.
That’s funny! Black market candy! But I think the laws have changed and they need a pretty strong justification to search a bag. Constitutional issues.
@@Barbara-ch3qflol my art teacher got in a little trouble selling “black market” candy and pop tarts to fund a field trip to another state for the kids who couldn’t go out of pocket. I was a frequent customer even after she got caught.
The only grown-up who DID NOT fail Ethan and the other kids in this case was the teacher who originally noticed the drawings on the paper and brought it to the attention of the Main Office. She took it seriously, and everybody else after her completely dropped the ball. And his parents had been dropping every single ball going back at least when Ethan was only eight or nine years old according to the neighbor who used to find him on her porch late at night because they had left him home alone.
As a registered professional all of the officials in this town failed these kids. They are a mirage of authority without a single shred of backbone. What a pathetic town. You can tell the judge is as lame as everyone else.
Agree…and he said guns are common place at the school with hunting season etc., but didn’t ask the parents about access to weapons…even after the drawings, the messages “blood everywhere” and him looking at ammunition on his phone during class. Ridiculous how they didn’t have “reasonable suspicion” to search his belongings.
Plus they knew that he mentioned they had just gone to the shooting range...with what gun? Obviously a gun that they owned! It's ridiculous to me that they're trying to claim they would have checked his bag or forced him to go home if the Crumbleys had mentioned he had access to guns. Like you said, you have to assume kids who go to shooting ranges have access to their parent's guns and any guns that have been "pre-gifted" to them. Many kids know their parent's codes to safes or know where they store unlocked guns. Teens are so smart at sneaking things out and figuring things out, so always assume they can get ahold of a weapon even if it IS locked away.
BS those drawings was enough to search that back pack!the school dropped the ball counselor principal the teacher was concerned and sent his az to the office
You're right. If not the violent drawings, what would then qualify as grounds for searching the backpack? That he made an open threat to shoot up the school? How would the school come upon that - by following him on social media? It's like in self-defense - if you wait until you have definitive proof that someone's going to assault you, it's probably too late to defend yourself against it.
Negligence on the parent's part...but protecting the school students showed a great negligence on the part of the school from the beginning. If the school's procedure had been vigilant/active rather than passive, this probably never would have taken place.
How can you blame the school procedure? The school literally stopped a school shooter before the act and requested the parents remove him immediately for mental health treatment. The School also wasn't aware of and didn't buy and give Ethan access to a gun too. The school did everything right and would have searched the bag if they knew Ethan was gifted a gun 4 days before the meeting
She's part of the population that believes parents should have total control over how their children are treated at school. That's part of her decision not to take the advice / request from the school. For that reason alone, she and her husband should bear the full weight of their decisions with their son and the school.
@maryjackson1194 I get what you’re saying here. But the school is responsible for the welfare of every student on campus, regardless of what parents believe about their child’s education.
This, exactly this! Great comment!! This type of parenting is unfortunately the exact reason why schools have to adhere to such rigid assessments and guidelines. They can’t force her to get him therapy, they can’t force her to tell the school the truth about his access to weapons. The school isn’t a fault. Poor parenting is.
I wouldn’t want to be a teacher in this school. At least two teachers reported that Ethan was on his phone searching for bullets and drawing violent pictures and writing concerning phrases instead of doing schoolwork. He was pulled out of class to talk to a counselor but there weren’t any repercussions. Whatever happened to afterschool or lunchtime detention? The teachers have virtually NO SUPPORT from the administration. I applaud the two teachers who did something. Unfortunately the ball was dropped. This in no way exonerates Jennifer Crumbly.
This guy had no business being in the role he had. He was in way over his head and has blood on his hands as far as I’m concerned. He failed in so many ways. 4 kids dead and so many lives negatively impacted and continuing to suffer terribly from PTSD - including my family members that attended that school. He should be expelled from ever being able to work in the education field ever again. I can’t fathom how he was allowed to continue to work in the school system. It’s infuriating.
The school felt Ethan needed counseling…like THAT DAY - but says they didn’t have “reasonable suspicion” after seeing the violent drawings depicting a gun with violent messages “blood everywhere” to search his backpack or discipline Ethan. Insane.
The way is questioning however is very good , she has the offense thinking and she's successful in showing the neglegence of the school that's all that matters voice quality asside.
This guy is not fit for his role. This is a perfect example of just because you have a degree that does not make you competent in that area of study/ career. His actions in preventing this shooting showed that.
Good luck finding people to work in schools these days. We weren’t able to find school psychologists in the new school year for both our middle schools in our town in the Chicago suburbs. They don’t get paid enough to put up with all our kids mental issues and they are leaving. Let alone become legally responsible if a kid does something and they get blamed! You may just find people right out of college with little experience to take this pay.
This showed that others might have been more qualified to handle a matter such as this. As a former educator (retired thankfully) people like this guy get jobs because of who they know and associate with. Not their competence. In public education, it is a notorious fact, far more incompetent cowards are at the helm than strong intelligent and courageous educators. Glad I am out of that mess. This guy is a joke. I hope the district puts him back In the classroom but being in a small town, he will continue to skate until he retires!
The responsibility to stop a shooting shouldn't fall on any school employee. We need stricter gun laws in this country, children should NEVER have access to firearms. This man's job is to discipline students for talking back to their teachers, not to anticipate a student murdering their peers. I think everyone in this case made mistakes that maybe could've lead to a different outcome, but it isn't fair to hold school employees accountable for something that is completely unthinkable. The only people in this case that had the full picture and should've understood the risk was the parents.
“Any type of indicator that the student was going to be a threat - including himself”….somehow, drawing a gun with the message “blood everywhere” while looking at ammunition on his phone…wasn’t considered a “threat”…to this Dean.
I mean, to be very fair, the drawings didn't seem threatening to others...they just seemed su*c*dal. (I don't know why he didn't admit to the su*cidal thing though since the counselor at least saw that...) But really with "threatening" drawings, they're more like what was in his journal that no one knew about. He was being cautious and didn't really draw anything that would give away his plan. There are so many school shooter drawings out there, and they're SO Much worse than this one worksheet. If only they had found his journal though...then I know without a doubt there would be no room for denial or ignorance. But as it stands, I can't without reasonable doubt say that everyone knew or suspected that he was a threat to the school. I don't think they did. And that does make me very upset, because I might have seen those signs so clearly. You might have. Any random commenter here might have seen it and put it all together, but they didn't.
@@EastmanEditing in todays day and age with school/mass shootings daily/weekly…all schools need to operate on a ‘zero tolerance policy’, and a lot of them do - if you even joke about a shooting or a bomb or mention a ‘gun’ (like on an airplane…) you will be removed/suspended from school. When I was in middle school around the time of the Columbine shooting…it was rumored I was selling candy…(I was…and making bank) but I was called to the principals office with two police officers there and my backpack was searched - for candy. They had enough reasonable suspicion with the drawing alone…to search his backpack - had they done that the school school shooting wouldn’t have happened. They told the parents he needed counseling ‘that day’…but didn’t feel that they should at least search his backpack before deciding to send him back to class?
Why? I get that not everyone is ok with guns of any kind or maybe just not guns in the hands of anyone under the age of 18/21, but shooting sports and hunting ARE things kids and teens are into legally, with parental supervision. So in that world, it's not much different than looking up video games during class. As they mentioned, it was hunting. It was Michigan ffs. More kids than not had probably looked up bullets during class. If he was looking up "how to kill everyone in my school..." then yeah. Or "how to sneak a gun into my school and not get caught..." Yes. And don't just kick him out, call the authorities and take him in for questioning! But this wasn't that. He was a "quiet, sweet, kid who was a little depressed due to circumstances" from what they knew at the time.
Yes the judge seems so inexperienced like she is not like any judge I have ever seen in a criminal court. She has got to be new , shy, bashful or all the above.
The judge is supposed to be a quiet observer during this portion of trial, and merely serves as a referee of the rules. The judge will give her thoughts at the end.
Regardless of the childs mental state she should have never bought a minor a gun. Taking a kid shooting and owning your own gun as a parent is one thing (being responsible and locking it up when you get home) and a kid figuring out the code and stealing it, to I bought a minor a gun. Both parents are guilty on that account. Regardless if its your son or not you all should have not tried to cover up his crimes you should have been honest from the beginning. Since they knew and didn't call the police to say it was him they should get guilty by accomplice.
@EM-ej7qm I agree the parents should not have bought him a gun. Admittedly, though, I am entirely against guns and gun ownership of any kind, so I am biased. The culture surrounding this school is very different from mine. The dean even said the kids pose for photo shoots with their guns all the time. But I do hold the school equally, if not MORE responsible for the school shooting than the parents. The school counselor is supposedly a “mental health professional” worried about suicide but failed to ask the parents if they have guns in the home or whether he has ever complained of voices. The dean just lets kids watch movies during class about shooting people??? It’s not a disciplinary problem to draw pictures of guns on your math worksheet during class? “No,” he says it’s a mental health issue instead. Then why didn’t they check his back pack for something he could hurt himself with? Why did they give the parents 48 hours to get a danger assessment and just leave him at school? Why are only the parents on trial????
Hunting culture is huge in Michigan due to years of deer overpopulation. I live 30 minutes away from Oxford & it’s actually really common for kids to start hunting with their dads around 12 years old… In michigan the DNR lets kids hunt and fish just the same amount as any adult would, their parent just needs to pick up a hunting/fishing license at any gas station and follow the quantity limit. You can take home one deer per season, but this year they could tag one a day to donate the meat to veteran/homeless shelters also. My high school even has its own trap team, which is target shooting for sport
@@xxmvvipeople who don’t get it don’t want to get it. Iykyk. But I agree with you. The area I live in is the same way. Country kids and city kids are completely different breeds of kids.
@@keemarie1yeah that’s what I’ve noticed too , and gun free places have such a completely different view on guns . It blows my mind . Like do we live in the same country?!
Sooooo the drawings & statements on the math assignment left you no suspicion of Ethan’s SERIOUS state of mind or contents in his backpack Mr. Ejack?! To say you “dropped the ball” in doing your job is a massive understatement!!!! I hope this gentleman never holds a position as Dean of students again!
But the parents gave explanations for those drawings. He clearly said that. The parents were adamant that the drawings were for gaming design!! They should have taken their son home. If the parents “didn’t” see it how do you expect anyone else to especially when the parents are defending his actions and giving excuses!!!
@@CutandShoot5x5- this dean will live with this bad decision not to check the backpack, not to ask about access to firearms for the rest of his life, bc of the irresponsibility of these two gun owners and parents…. The school teachers and admin told parents to come have a meeting, assuming like most parents they wld take him home w them. He did not for one second think this child had a gun in the bag, which was his mistake; but to blame the school for what this kids parents allowed him to do is ridiculous. The 1 good thing is from here on out; I bet admin can and will ask the question at parent meeting in regard to mental health and hopefully be able to force parents to take child home. Esp since video games /online /SM will be likely excuse of all similar art … that I’m sure happens both innocently and maliciously simultaneously in every school across America.
@@angieed1980 I very much agree with your comment! I think 🤔 the problem with making a limited comment like mine leaves out too much. The Parents are culpable in this awful case as you rightly point out. Thank you for your comment!
My 15 year old son came to me one night and was in tears and told me he wished he were dead. I got on his Dr. office portal, sent a message to them, they called me first thing the next morning and he was seen that day. How, why, would a mother or father, not take any comment regarding their child’s mental health seriously? I don’t understand. That poor kid screamed for help and the two people who were supposed to protect him and help him, just literally turned him away. And so many people suffered in ways no parent, kid, teacher, etc, should ever endure. This was so preventable. 100% parents daily started way before the drawing surfaced.
I am so livid not just the neglect of the parent's, but how this school had a child in extreme crisis in their care & they just kept passing the buck! No accountability or transparency! Just internally investgated, then powers that be just move to another location! So much more important that children wear masks that did nothing to protect them, while ignoring a teen in serious crisis with clear neglectful parent's! Huge fail on the schools part!
His comment about the weight of the backpack is so concerning! If you saw one piece of paper and got worried why not look at his notebooks in his backpack see if there is a suicide note , more disturbing material .. I mean jeez what is a two min examination of some notebooks. Concerning. Not excusing the parents but come on far as school officials really feel they dropped the ball
The county children’s services should have been notified if there was any doubt this child wasn’t going directly to some kind of therapy/intervention etc. We had a whole team at our school last week for a suicidal student (who was completely calm, not threatening).
Yes, why did the school not call CPS? They are mandated reporters, and this was a clear sign of medical neglect on the parents' part. When they refused to take him home and then get him psychiatric care ASAP, then instead of sending him back to class they should've kept him in the office with an adult keeping an eye on him and waited for CPS to send somebody out.
If you watch the interview of the school counselor, he says that his plan was to follow up about Ethan the next morning and if there had been no counseling intervention, then he was going to call child protective services
@@user-kp6we9qw7i -- Good that the counselor documented this plan, because it sounds like at least one family is planning on suing the school district on behalf of a surviving child who was injured in the shooting. Might not be a bad idea for school protocols to change after this case, if the reason they are requesting psychiatric evaluation ASAP involves a student who has produced violent language in a written assignment, or otherwise created violent imagery in a school setting. There should probably be more detailed questions about firearms in the home, storage of those firearms, and authorization for schools to check backpacks, purses, pockets and lockers without having to get a warrant or having to get permission from the parents.
It's bizarre these days how so many people live in so many varieties of fear - of being attacked, of being sued, of being accused of racism, of breaking the law, of becoming a victim of the laws, of the laws being enforced, of the laws *not* being enforced, of being rejected, of intimacy, of failure, of success, of the unknown, of their own secrets being exposed, of not being known, of viruses, of vaccines...and on and on. And yet look at how much these things happen because of the very fears themselves...look at how many of them create the fear of the opposite happening. Our entire society has become simply bizarre in so many ways.
They all truly didn't think he would ever hurt anyone. I don't think it crossed their minds in the slightest that he might have brought a gun to school with him that day. Even the parents. If the parents had any doubt, they WOULD have checked his bag because you know they wouldn't want to get in trouble for him doing "something stupid" as Jen would say. They could have even pulled him aside to "talk to him privately" to check his bag without anyone witnessing it if they were scared about that, but I just don't think they were worried about it until the moment they got the active shooter alert. Then it all came crashing together...
If the parents would have told the school that he had access to a gun then the outcome would likely be different, but there’s no way to go back and change what happened now.
WHY WASN’T HE SEARCHED AND HAD A LOCKER CHECK IMMEDIATELY?? they should have done a whole physical search, locker search and given him suspension until the parents made arrangements for him! he was a mess! nobody cared and everyone failed him!! that paper was a cry for health and nobody heard him. it was so incredibly preventable and every single adult in his life failed to help him. that sort of environment WOULD create a school shooter! DUH!
They weren’t using lockers at that time however, his backpack and stuff should have been searched that day. This email was sent and the same day the 30th when his parents were at the school.
The counselor thought he has suicidal thinking not harmful to anyone If parents told the teacher they bought a gun during the meeting they could have searched
@lisaandrews919 they showed pictures of bullets right out in the open in their house! They were not put away and also they bought him the gun! Obviously there going to give him access to bullets its ridiculous
@@elizabethann4701 They didn't just "give him the gun" though. They were (usually) storing it in their bedroom. They didn't hand it to Ethan and say, "here, go into the world and enjoy your new toy with some ammo here!" They bought him a gun and were just going to take him shooting at the range with supervision, and in between, the gun would be in their possession. He had never acted out with a gun before, and they had others in the house, so they didn't expect him to with this new gun either. They didn't take extra precautions to lock that one up extra tight like they SHOULD have. But they were just too trusting and too in denial simultaneously.
@@fnhc2023 did you listen to the mom‘s testimony? She said she “took away” his gun and the shooting range. Then when asked about what she said, she denied that she said she took his gun away and said she only said that she took the shooting range away. Sounds like an obvious slip on her part. She also said the night before the shooting she took away his cell phone, but it was also found that he recorded a 19 minute video at 10 PM during the time his cell phone had been taken away. A lot of conflicting reports came out of the mom’s testimony.
When i was in high school guys used to have 🔫 racks on the back window with a loaded 🔫 so they could go hunting on Friday immediately after school. My heart goes out to the victims, their families and friends.
Kids weren't F-up'ed on violent video games, social media, left alone for hours without family cohesion. I saw the same thing growing at my high school and didn't think nothing of it. Went home and had dinner as a family every night.
This dean needs to lose his job.....nothing was a glaring red flag to this “professional”.......it’s obvious he was ill-equipped and woefully inexperienced dealing with socially and emotionally disturbed individuals.
As a H.S. sub teacher, I noticed an angry written answer, took all the papers to the office, and asked to see the school psychologist. "No you cant see her".Then the admin looked at the violent answer again, and ran to the psychologist's office. End of day...the admin thanked me for bringing it to everyone's attention.
I worked in the schools for decades as a SLP. Dean of Students is a title that gets an office, a larger salary and a bit more status. They do as little real work as possible besides show up at IEP meetings as required to sign off as administrators. They essentially follow the lead of the executive or vice principals. The Dean had a responsibility to check that backpack because of those disturbing drawings. Probable cause. Those babies lost their lives because of parental AND school administration neglect.
This dude should definitely be part of a lawsuit! He had way more to do with the outcome than he would admit! And to think he works for another school district now! Protect ur kids cause he won’t.
And to think these parents are a trial for involuntary manslaughter when they wouldn’t be if he would’ve done his due diligence, that’s what makes me angry
@tammyirwin703 they called the parents in but they wouldn't take him home...the school didn't know he owned a gun but the parents did.. Ethans their responsibility...its their fault...the school is there to teach kids...
Nope, it's all the parents fault. That's what they want everyone to believe, the school staff was caring and loving. Covering their own butts and throwing the mom under the bus.
Mrs. Crumbley did not want to take him home because she was getting busy at Costco. She left him in school even though him may have been suicidal. Unbelievable. Lock her up.
I teach in Florida and I don’t know what planet this guy is living on! The drawings of guns, watching a violent video game, etc.. did not raise any level concern???? Are you kidding me?? He has blood on his hands on this one! He is not living in the same world we are living in! We have to look at all of these warning signs and take appropriate action!
I think my first question to the parents would have been are there any guns in the home, and if so, are they locked up, while noticing his gun drawings, and violent drawings. That is a huge missed opportunity from the school! At that point, that is when they should have made the decision whether to search him and keep him at school or send him home. I think all of these adults failed big time!!
Right!!! That's what I don't understand why nobody asked about the guns in the home & his access to them. Even if they thought he was suicidal. Was the school resource officer called in?
@AnRey18 The mental health professional is required to ask whether there are guns in the home if he thinks a kid is suicidal. He asked NOTHING like that.
If nothing else after these cases are decided, I hope this prompts school personnel around the country to include questions like that in every case, when they're dealing with a troubled kid. Don't just let parents downplay the situation. They'll probably have to come up with a much more detailed protocol of various questions to ask.
Unreal that this dean had the bag with the gun while discussing extremely violent drawings of a depressed/struggling kid. A heavy backpack?? That is reasonable suspicion right there! Numerous school shootings should have raised these red flag behaviors to the level of suspicion/investigation and discipline! He was obviously well coached for this questioning but this dean was extremely negligent in his discernment of the situation. "There was no threat present at the time ?" ALERT the police resource officer and let them decide. All the dean's word salads will never replace the lack of common sense. Some of his responses were flippant at times. I feel so sad for his lack of judgement. Hope other schools learn from this.
All these people knew something wasn't right and yet, none of them did anything in the hours before this horrific event to prevent it. (IMO) T he parents are guilty, as well as all the people at the school who felt something wasn't right that morning. I think that as soon as the Crumbly's refused to take their child home. That CPS, should have been called and the child removed from them. My heart breaks for all the victims
They had no cause to suspend him! But they should have called authorities when it was clear the Mom didn't take it seriously & appeared to do nothing to help her son!
@@cristineconnell7803 Theres an entire Michigan Law written for schools to follow a protocol around campus safety which is the school’s responsibility.
When his parents refused to take him out of school that day, and get him an urgent psychiatric evaluation, the school should've called CPS. Not taking their son for desperately needed medical attention was neglect, and schools are mandated reporters when they see evidence of neglect or abuse. Granted, they wouldn't be able to take him directly to a psychiatrist, they would've had to start with the emergency room. But he still should've been taken someplace immediately.
The whole thing is a mess. "Dean Of Students" was no help. I don't understand why Ethan wasn't on the school's radar long before this happened. The kid was drawing guns and violence and no one asked the parents about guns in the family? No one cked the back pack. Also I don't why the school thought this kid could get counseling within the same day. Might have to wait several days, unrealistic. Parents needed counseling too. Parents and school dropped the ball.
The school was criminally negligent, The school planned to call CPS the next day they were so concerned, but did NOT ask if the son had access to a gun. Did not suspend him on the spot and/or call the Police while looking at test answers which only included an actual drawing of a gun, a bleeding body and HELP ME written on it.
@@julianyc422I don’t understand why CPS wasn’t called when parents refused to take him home. That part would have prevented the rest. Seems there were many excuses and exceptions made!
Right…the school felt he needed counseling THAT DAY…but didn’t have “reasonable suspicion” to search his backpack or have him removed from school. The parents are liable…but the school messed up big time as well.
@@scottlosey4978 haha right? Maybe what not to do all over again? Since those schools certainly were not successful in preventing a shooting at their schools either...
@@EastmanEditing Yeah...the decision making by kids whether it be Oxford, Columbine, Uvalde, Sandy Hook, or etc. is just as incomprehensible as it is confusing. I have been a staff member at a poor, relatively impoverished school district in Southwestern Michigan for the past three years. Because I work in tandem with the Vice Principal as the school disciplinarian, there are always a couple of students that I especially keep tabs on and go out of my way to to to develop relationships with....to learn about their home lives, their aspirations, their interactions with students and staff. From my study of those with whom perpetrate such acts like school shootings, the one prevailing factor in nearly every student perpetrated shooting is a complete and utter lack of any connection to the school whatsoever. Most, if not all, student shooters have zero connection to teachers, staff, and other students....this includes their parents or guardians having no connection to the school as well. For this reason, as previously stated, I take the time to talk to these kids and remind them that I believe in them and that I am always available to talk even in private if that makes them more comfortable. While I understand that this may be tangibly easier to accomplish in smaller schools, larger school districts do, without question, possess greater funding to hire people with whom are willing to develop relationships with "fringe" students. I am certainly no expert, but I honestly believe that school districts have a responsibility to get to know their student body and avail themselves to let each student know that they are valued and that no one student's well being is anymore valuable than any other. While this fundamental premise or "procedural protocol" does not guarantee that a tragedy will not occur, teacher and staff engagement with the student body should not constitute above and beyond expectations, but, rather inherent interactions based upon the reasonable responsibilities we all have as adults who choose to work in education. 90 percent of teachers, staff, and administration that I know choose to work in education because we care about getting these young people ready for a difficult and complex world...provide an environment where mistakes and poor decision making can be made and addressed (with the development of remedial action plans that enforce the concept of self accountability and consequences to por behavior and decision making) without suffering life altering consequences post high school such as loss of employment, criminal proceedings, or otherwise. I can honestly assert that I do not go to work each day only for the paycheck.....good thing because you will not find millionaires in the field of education. Does this make sense? Again, I want to reiterate that I am no expert....just offering my observations given the vantage point that I have each and every school day.
The loss of authority in education professionals has a lot to do with Jennifer being able to leave her son in school, contrary to the opinion of educators. And does anyone believe that Attorney Smith was studying every minute in high school, never passing notes, reading something she shouldn't? Heck, I was part of a running poker game in Algebra -- because some of us got our work done a whole lot faster than the rest!
Exactly !! Drawing guns and blood .. doesn’t reach level of concern !!?!!?! SICK !! Isn’t even the word most would describe this joke of A Dean of Students!!!!!
I’m not a teacher or in any way an expert on threat assessment, but it would seem to me that the drawings and words on the math paper would concern me enough that I would want a mental health evaluation before allowing him to return to school. Also, I would have notified the police.
It is also the responsibility of the school administration to safeguard the security of the students during school hours. They knew he was drawing bizarre pictures, bullets, they knew his family took him to the shooting range and there were guns in the home, didnt they? The parents knew. In no way could the parents be bothered with their only son's safety and well-being by seeking immediate psychological help recommended by the school counselor. They simply left him at school to his own device. And the relative horrific consequences and fate.
My son took one of his dad's shell casings and put it on a piece of paper when he was writing about soldiers in the war and we were contacted by the school. Totally innocent but he was 10 years old and got in more trouble than Ethan did. So sad and scary that they didn't take his math paper more seriously....
The defence attorney going after the Dean of students for not sending Ethan home for "discipline" was weird, this was clearly a mental health issue, he hadn't been violent yet and Jennifer provided the excuses saying his drawing was because he wants to design video games?
@@ohyesby Yeah and describes Ethan as a "great at drawing" yet she thought it was a bad drawing of Batman on the worksheet and not blood.. She plays dumb too much i hope the Jury see's through it
The defense attorney is making a strategic error. By objecting to the lack of foundation with witnesses who (she should know) can easily demonstrate foundation by citing the scope and depth of their experience, she ends up making the jury place more weight on their testimony than the jurors might otherwise. She's taken away the ability to portray the witnesses as making decisions on soft grounds.
I am GenX. Something has changed in our society and access to guns is NOT what has changed. I grew up in a town that had this same "gun culture". I got my first gun for Christmas when I was 9. I stored the gun and the ammo in my bedroom. By the time I was in HS I had multiple guns, including the loaded handgun I kept in my car that I drove to school everyday. Many of my classmates did the same. We were taught gun safety from an early age. We didn't have school councilors. I didn't have a good home life. I was THE kid everyone picked on growing up. It never entered my mind that shooting up the school was even an option. It never entered the mind of any of my friends who had full access to guns and ammo. Point is, something has changed in our society and access to guns is not it.
This dean was totally wrong in his decisions..especially not look into his bookbag?? ??? Are you kidding? A drawing with gun's ?? This was a pure indication that this kid was mentally in trouble...it was clear
Staff and parents have to understand each student problems is everyone’s problems. They can’t ignore it anymore. They need to help each other. They might pay for it if they don’t. He obviously had visible problems and no one tried to help in the whole dam school
My son snuck off campus to go to lunch and was searched when he got back to school. They even made him take off his shoes. All he did was go to McDonald’s.
How many Hurt Feelings employees are on staff at these schools?!!! We are creating a society that is so crippled by feelings that i doubt we have very many years left in this super power nation.
Leta not forget what this case is about. Violence n coldness created a monster...not softness and being sensitive about his emotions. If they had cared about his emotions they wouod have gotten him help a long time ago...
That man has no business being dean. He keeps dropping the ball on everyone else & not once takes responsibility. Shame on him & I'm very leary as to where he earned his MA degree. All the evidence evidence was there. He kept pushing mental health issues, but he is not a psychologist to make that determination. Bad school districts.
As a parent I would be upset with the staff at the school. If he drew pictures of drugs would his backpack been checked? He needed to be sent home and manatory to seek help before he could return to school.
I was crying so many times during the Miller hearings. He had been begging for help in his own confused way for years. Going back to when he was a little boy showing up on the neighbor's porch in the middle of the night because his parents left him alone to go out and party. His life didn't have to turn out this way, and those four other kids didn't need to die. There were so many points along the way that intervention could've changed everybody's destiny.
I see no evidence that the counselor or anybody else asked the obvious questions and it disturbs me to know this guy continues to work in education, they should have fired the counselor without hesitation but that would have ben seen as an admission of the district's liability
Definitely think the parents were negligent and detached, but this Dean, who is highly educated and experienced with troubled kids, discipline etc. and had the authority to force the shooter to go home, had to authority to search the “unusually heavy” backpack-Failed- at every turn. The school has contributory negligence responsibility. The defense attorney speaks awkwardly but makes the point: if all of these things - the bullet search, the violent video, the math paper comments- did not rise to the level for this Dean to issue any “discipline” or search his backpack, and he’s the educated “professional” the student’s parents rely on, how could you expect the parents to be held to a higher standard when they had less information?
Ah man your comment makes me sad about the fact that the average dumb juror will use this same logic. The parent will ALWAYS have more information about their kid. He LIVES with them.
I got so much flack for homeschooling my daughter.....I was scared some crap like this would happen. There are amazing parents out there then there are parents like this. Ethan needed his mom and dad, but they were too busy doing their own thing. My child needed me and I was there. I wasn't perfect, but I for sure was there when she needed to talk!
I am older and don't have children. If I did have school aged children I would home school them too. Good for you for being a caring parent and doing what you know is right in your heart. I would be terrified to be a parent, student or teacher.
It is unreal to me that his actions that morning didn’t warrant looking in his backpack. Teachers were warning administrators and they did absolutely nothing.
This man should have called 911 as soon as anything considering a gun came up, I'm sorry that's really bad when school shootings are a real thing. This man and the mother and father and dean really dropped the ball !!
This child was failed not only by his parents but the school as well. The administrators should also be being held accountable along side the parents. Tragic.
Lots of people saying everyone let him down but the teachers did not let him down... they reported it again and again. The counselor let him down. Even worse...The counselor let all the students down. He should have had weekly sessions with Ethan and reported it to the parents from the beginning. He was the one who had formal training with kids in these situations. Im pretty sure he wasnt genuinely spending time to figure things out. He did the bare minimum. I am all about parental accountability but so far i dont think they've proven this being so obvious to the point they be charged. The initial texts show that they initially thought he committed suicide. Everyone was oblivious that he was a harm to others. Still have to see the rest of the trial but so far i think the burden is mostly on the school counselor but again no one believed it rose to that level. Parents should be accountable civily but not criminally.
Agreed. I have watch this case from pre-trial and have been OBJECTIVE the whole time and I don’t see any glaring evidence either. When I read all the comments, it’s kind of annoying to see people kind of side with the prosecutors . And I think it’s natural because this is a horrible case and we all want justice to be done. But I think folks need to realize that this is a slippery slope, and it will create such a harsh new precedent that we can be charged with the crime that someone else committed
That is completely true about not being able to get immediate appointments with a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but in that situation you take your child to the emergency room to get the process started. And the ER is unfortunately pretty used to this by now, for both adult and pediatric patients needing psychiatric care, because we have lost 90% of our inpatient psychiatric beds since the 1980s due to the closing of psychiatric hospitals, through a combination of politicians making budget cuts and misguided ideas about "mainstreaming" even the most severely mentally ill patients back into society. So even patients who are already known to have major psychiatric problems, the kind that used to be an automatic admission to a psych hospital, now have to go through the ER first, and even then there isn't always going to be an open bed they can transfer them to. They have to sometimes keep these patients in observation in the ER for days, or set them up with a very insufficient "day hospitalization" program where the patient is only there about six hours per day, and then the family still has to find a way to supervise them the rest of the time.
Right. Exactly. Especially, at that time. We were trying to find therapist for our son in early 2021 and it took many months to get him in an appointment with anybody. Even this past December I needed to make an appointment for my son and I am still on a “ waiting list “until at least mid March. He’s it’s just Adhd not like in a crisis mode like this kid but we found that very few actual therapists even want to take kids as clients. We called so many places.
On all thoughts aside about the school and their part in this. How long has this lawyer been practicing? Im curious because it doesnt seem as if she understands how to do her job
The school is responsible for their overall student body… and the fact that bullets were being discussed as well as a gun drawn by the same student should have been a red flag given the fact that there have been several school shootings prior to this one and schools should not take anything for granted. Not to mention, they expected the parents to obtain a counseling session within hours in the same day during the Covid pandemic is absurd. As a psychiatrist, I can tell you that that would have been nearly impossible.
This principle is self serving. He was as much responsible as the parents. I don’t think the parents should be charged, but since they are, so should this principle and the councillor.
@@sibelc.380-- Go back and watch the Miller hearings for Ethan, especially when the prison psychiatrist testified. Not only had he been crying out for help for months, texting his mother when he was having hallucinations and begging her to come home, and asking his parents to get him in to see somebody, there were messages between him and a friend about how he had asked his parents to take him to a psychiatrist, and they laughed him off. Writing "help me "and other things on the papers, and taking the gun to his school in his backpack, things he did in the hopes that somebody at school would see what was wrong, and force his parents to get him medical attention for his hallucinations. The reason he was not nervous sitting in that office with the school personnel, and his parents is that he thought for sure somebody would be searching his backpack, and when they found the gun, that would be an immediate ticket to a psychiatric evaluation. Granted, Ethan also could have told everybody in the office right then that he had a gun in his backpack and he had been thinking about shooting people. That would've gotten the immediate attention he needed, and the other four kids would still be alive. Every grown-up drop the ball in this case, except for that one teacher, who first brought the drawing to the attention of the principal and the counselors. She took it seriously and everybody else after her didn't follow up properly. And of course the parents have been neglecting him for years
Why did the counselor send Ethan back to class before the Crumbley’s even sat down? He should’ve told him to have a seat, talk to the parents, then meet with all of them together. By sending him back to class it gave the impression it wasn’t an immediate concern. The school is covering their @$$ and the counselor lied on the stand because HE was the one who could’ve impressed IMMEDIATE concern of getting treatment THAT DAY.
Dude, Ethan wanted you to find the gun, thats why he wasn't nervous.
This kid was screaming out for help and I agree, wanted it to be found
@@AnnaMorris411I don’t think he wanted it to be found but maybe he didn’t care if it was found.
@@keemarie1-- During the Miller hearing for Ethan, the prison psychiatrist testified that Ethan DID want them to find the gun. He was relieved when he was finally in the office and the school had called his parents, because he thought for sure the next step would be the adults searching his backpack and finding the gun.
He wanted somebody to stop him. He had been asking his parents for help with the hallucinations he was having, they had been downplaying it, and laughing it off. He wrote "help me" and the other things on the math paper hoping somebody would see that also. He figured if the school found a gun there would be no way they couldn't take him out of school and get him sent to a psych hospital.
Granted, Ethan could've also just let everybody know in the office that he had a gun in his backpack, and was thinking about shooting others. That would've also gotten him an expedited trip to the psychiatric hospital, and four other kids would still be alive.
Adults lock up guns full stop Ethan’s home was chaos and he was a lonely boy with nothing to loose sad reflection on some modern lives
Absolutely!!!
That’s one of the biggest issues with schools: they expect school staff to discipline their kid when that’s the job of the parents. They were advised to take him to seek some sort of mental health the same day but said they were too busy. Defense attorney wants to know why the school didn’t check his backpack - his parents were there why didn’t THEY check his backpack?
Trying to turn everything on the school when his parents knew he was dangerous.
But they lived with him! Weren’t they paying attention? He had dead birds in his room! He told them he was seeing things, etc. if they’d been paying attention this would have alarmed them!
Yes they were paying attention. The thought he was depressed. Lots of teenagers are depressed. This guy just said they let their kids come in late to go deer hunting with guns the parents gave them. So it's ok for other parents to give their children had guns
May not be their job to discipline... Although I do disagree with that to an extent because if they act up on school grounds, they do indeed need to do something about it. But it is a fact that it is their job to keep children safe when they leave their homes and enter that school campus! They failed to do that!
@JaiCahill-cd1uw they had already gotten a call about the picture of bullets. And they were the only adults in the room who were aware that he very easily COULD have a gun in his book bag.
@@debbysalmon2498Giving a child a gun as a gift is different than having a gun-educated adult responsibly teaching their children how to use one properly.
I wouldn’t do it myself but at this point, it’s not illegal.
This “dean” carried the backpack across campus and even commented how heavy it was. Then he sees drawings of guns, “blood everywhere” and doesn’t have an inkling to peek inside?! AMAZING.
Takes more than book knowledge to be categorized as smart…Still society doesn’t see it that way and continues to reward the ultra educated who fail us time and again…And I am educated.
I thought that was shocking!
I honestly think they just didn’t care enough about Ethan to even be concerned over the situation honestly.
Not impressed by the dean. Looks like he needs some guidance himself
I’m sick to my core. Every school from K-12 has strict protocols. I’ve seen elementary school students suspended for MUCH less, things that in no way have to do with violence! Parents are to immediately take their children home if the school calls. In this case, there’s a student drawing a gun and writing disturbing messages… an immediate suspension should have been put into place, along with referrals to 24 hour psychiatric services! Backpack and locker checks are not a violation of privacy. Students know these things can be checked randomly. WHY WAS NOTHING CHECKED; locker, backpack, body. The Dean of students had the backpack in his hands! At the very least, check it for more disturbing drawings or writings! The gun would have been discovered and none of this would have happened! I’m floored, regardless of what their concern was ( suicidal thoughts)… it is the schools job to protect ALL students. If the irresponsible parents couldn’t fit it in their hectic schedules to take care of their kid, he should have had in-office school that day! WAKE UP AND KEEP ALL OF OUR CHILDREN SAFE! I’m torn up about the poor decision making.
@JL-zn7me I agree with you 💯 %!
@@_______ACE_______ Any student or person for that matter can gain access to weapons' whether from home or elsewhere. With all of the history of mass school shootings that occurred prior to this point - NO EXCUSE, the book bag, locker and anything else that student owned should have been checked- its called common sense. The ball was dropped on the end of ALL adults that could have used common sense.
Exactly
@@_______ACE_______ I looked it up and this is what it says:
“752.913 Potential self-harm and potential harm or criminal acts directed at school students, school employees, or schools; establishment of program for receiving reports and information from public; hotline; operational and administrative oversight; report; referral to community mental health services program psychiatric crisis line; source of information on available community mental health resources and contacts; notice; biannual update of emergency contact information.”
So the school counselor failed to make an immediate referral to psychiatric crisis services!!!!
The school isn't on trial. They didn't illegally buy their disturbed underage son a gun but yet they also share some responsibility
As a teacher, they had reason to search his bag. Mom is guilty as all get out, but that school should have searched his bag. For Ethan's safety and others.
Agree…my backpack was searched in middle school (I’m in my 40’s now) by two police officers in the principals office…because it was rumored I was selling candy at school.
That’s funny! Black market candy! But I think the laws have changed and they need a pretty strong justification to search a bag. Constitutional issues.
@@Barbara-ch3qflol my art teacher got in a little trouble selling “black market” candy and pop tarts to fund a field trip to another state for the kids who couldn’t go out of pocket.
I was a frequent customer even after she got caught.
The only grown-up who DID NOT fail Ethan and the other kids in this case was the teacher who originally noticed the drawings on the paper and brought it to the attention of the Main Office. She took it seriously, and everybody else after her completely dropped the ball.
And his parents had been dropping every single ball going back at least when Ethan was only eight or nine years old according to the neighbor who used to find him on her porch late at night because they had left him home alone.
As a registered professional all of the officials in this town failed these kids. They are a mirage of authority without a single shred of backbone. What a pathetic town. You can tell the judge is as lame as everyone else.
As a highly educated person who works within the school system with our children you should always assume that there are guns in the family home..
Agree…and he said guns are common place at the school with hunting season etc., but didn’t ask the parents about access to weapons…even after the drawings, the messages “blood everywhere” and him looking at ammunition on his phone during class. Ridiculous how they didn’t have “reasonable suspicion” to search his belongings.
I agree
Absolutely. Discipline and behaviour and healthy mind start at home
Here in Canada, many families do not own a gun or have guns in their homes.
Plus they knew that he mentioned they had just gone to the shooting range...with what gun? Obviously a gun that they owned! It's ridiculous to me that they're trying to claim they would have checked his bag or forced him to go home if the Crumbleys had mentioned he had access to guns. Like you said, you have to assume kids who go to shooting ranges have access to their parent's guns and any guns that have been "pre-gifted" to them. Many kids know their parent's codes to safes or know where they store unlocked guns. Teens are so smart at sneaking things out and figuring things out, so always assume they can get ahold of a weapon even if it IS locked away.
BS those drawings was enough to search that back pack!the school dropped the ball counselor principal the teacher was concerned and sent his az to the office
I actually agree..I've worked at a Michigan school.
You're right. If not the violent drawings, what would then qualify as grounds for searching the backpack? That he made an open threat to shoot up the school? How would the school come upon that - by following him on social media? It's like in self-defense - if you wait until you have definitive proof that someone's going to assault you, it's probably too late to defend yourself against it.
One look into the backpack would have prevented all of it. Even a squeeze from the outside of the bag would have revealed the weapon. 😢
Makes No Sense To Me, they didn't check his Bookbag !!!!!!!!!
Neither did his neglectful parents!
I agree!
E xactly
Both sides dropped the ball
You heard him. He had no legal recourse to search the bag.
Negligence on the parent's part...but protecting the school students showed a great negligence on the part of the school from the beginning. If the school's procedure had been vigilant/active rather than passive, this probably never would have taken place.
This is very obvious
@vascabeall6924 You are exactly right!!
It wouldn’t have happened if the school would have taken all of this seriously!
How can you blame the school procedure? The school literally stopped a school shooter before the act and requested the parents remove him immediately for mental health treatment. The School also wasn't aware of and didn't buy and give Ethan access to a gun too. The school did everything right and would have searched the bag if they knew Ethan was gifted a gun 4 days before the meeting
I agree 100 peecent
School should be punished for not doing there duty protecting all the students
So many people dropped the ball before this tragedy happened.
Exactly. A bunch of factors came together and created the perfect storm.
Right also for years not one therapist tried to help him
But ultimately the person pulling the trigger is to blame.
@@Silversoon78910he’s a minor so they have to have parental consent. That’s on the parents
@@hannahremillard2471
The school could have recommended it and offer a therapist from the school.
She's part of the population that believes parents should have total control over how their children are treated at school. That's part of her decision not to take the advice / request from the school. For that reason alone, she and her husband should bear the full weight of their decisions with their son and the school.
@maryjackson1194 I get what you’re saying here. But the school is responsible for the welfare of every student on campus, regardless of what parents believe about their child’s education.
This, exactly this! Great comment!! This type of parenting is unfortunately the exact reason why schools have to adhere to such rigid assessments and guidelines.
They can’t force her to get him therapy, they can’t force her to tell the school the truth about his access to weapons. The school isn’t a fault. Poor parenting is.
I 100% agree. Now she blames the school when her son becomes a terrorist. She is a horrible person.
@@salishseasAnd a worse parent!
💯💯💯
There WAS access to a fire arm, you didn't ASK if there was access to a firearm.
I wouldn’t want to be a teacher in this school. At least two teachers reported that Ethan was on his phone searching for bullets and drawing violent pictures and writing concerning phrases instead of doing schoolwork. He was pulled out of class to talk to a counselor but there weren’t any repercussions. Whatever happened to afterschool or lunchtime detention? The teachers have virtually NO SUPPORT from the administration. I applaud the two teachers who did something. Unfortunately the ball was dropped. This in no way exonerates Jennifer Crumbly.
This guy had no business being in the role he had. He was in way over his head and has blood on his hands as far as I’m concerned. He failed in so many ways. 4 kids dead and so many lives negatively impacted and continuing to suffer terribly from PTSD - including my family members that attended that school. He should be expelled from ever being able to work in the education field ever again. I can’t fathom how he was allowed to continue to work in the school system. It’s infuriating.
Totally agree a man who is completely clueless about his job which safety is paramount he didn’t see any red flags at all awful
Well…..ejack can’t even use proper grammar! 9 yrs in education
“I can’t force parents to do anything” is where the police get a call to remove a dangerous child and CPS gets involved.
The school felt Ethan needed counseling…like THAT DAY - but says they didn’t have “reasonable suspicion” after seeing the violent drawings depicting a gun with violent messages “blood everywhere” to search his backpack or discipline Ethan. Insane.
Counselor and Dean: "Not my Job"
@@richardkule9384 passed the buck…where does it stop?
Explains why neither of them (counselor & dean) are no longer employed at that school, and the "Dean" is out of that school district now.@@briang2566
Gosh!! Is there anyone else who is super annoyed by the voice of the defense lawyer? She sounds like she is constantly whining 😫
I definitely am.
I've turned her off multiple times. If I was a juror I probably would be irritated with her.
The way is questioning however is very good , she has the offense thinking and she's successful in showing the neglegence of the school that's all that matters voice quality asside.
I've turned her off so many times she is such a whining child like
@@jeannefischer3868She is stumbling all over, trying to get anything to stick! And falling far short!
This guy is not fit for his role. This is a perfect example of just because you have a degree that does not make you competent in that area of study/ career. His actions in preventing this shooting showed that.
Good luck finding people to work in schools these days. We weren’t able to find school psychologists in the new school year for both our middle schools in our town in the Chicago suburbs. They don’t get paid enough to put up with all our kids mental issues and they are leaving. Let alone become legally responsible if a kid does something and they get blamed! You may just find people right out of college with little experience to take this pay.
This showed that others might have been more qualified to handle a matter such as this. As a former educator (retired thankfully) people like this guy get jobs because of who they know and associate with. Not their competence. In public education, it is a notorious fact, far more incompetent cowards are at the helm than strong intelligent and courageous educators. Glad I am out of that mess. This guy is a joke. I hope the district puts him back In the classroom but being in a small town, he will continue to skate until he retires!
The responsibility to stop a shooting shouldn't fall on any school employee. We need stricter gun laws in this country, children should NEVER have access to firearms. This man's job is to discipline students for talking back to their teachers, not to anticipate a student murdering their peers. I think everyone in this case made mistakes that maybe could've lead to a different outcome, but it isn't fair to hold school employees accountable for something that is completely unthinkable. The only people in this case that had the full picture and should've understood the risk was the parents.
This man didn't have all the information. That lies on the parents
The parents are responsible for him having the gun in his backpack. Full stop.
Yes parents are responsible to secure guns
I agree.
Agreed. There is no way the school would’ve known or had any indication that he might have a gun in his backpack.
“Any type of indicator that the student was going to be a threat - including himself”….somehow, drawing a gun with the message “blood everywhere” while looking at ammunition on his phone…wasn’t considered a “threat”…to this Dean.
But CPS is contacted if a child reports my parents won't use my chosen pronouns.
I mean, to be very fair, the drawings didn't seem threatening to others...they just seemed su*c*dal. (I don't know why he didn't admit to the su*cidal thing though since the counselor at least saw that...) But really with "threatening" drawings, they're more like what was in his journal that no one knew about. He was being cautious and didn't really draw anything that would give away his plan. There are so many school shooter drawings out there, and they're SO Much worse than this one worksheet. If only they had found his journal though...then I know without a doubt there would be no room for denial or ignorance. But as it stands, I can't without reasonable doubt say that everyone knew or suspected that he was a threat to the school. I don't think they did. And that does make me very upset, because I might have seen those signs so clearly. You might have. Any random commenter here might have seen it and put it all together, but they didn't.
@@EastmanEditing in todays day and age with school/mass shootings daily/weekly…all schools need to operate on a ‘zero tolerance policy’, and a lot of them do - if you even joke about a shooting or a bomb or mention a ‘gun’ (like on an airplane…) you will be removed/suspended from school. When I was in middle school around the time of the Columbine shooting…it was rumored I was selling candy…(I was…and making bank) but I was called to the principals office with two police officers there and my backpack was searched - for candy. They had enough reasonable suspicion with the drawing alone…to search his backpack - had they done that the school school shooting wouldn’t have happened. They told the parents he needed counseling ‘that day’…but didn’t feel that they should at least search his backpack before deciding to send him back to class?
It should be a level of immediate consequences for a student searching bullets on internet in class
Why? I get that not everyone is ok with guns of any kind or maybe just not guns in the hands of anyone under the age of 18/21, but shooting sports and hunting ARE things kids and teens are into legally, with parental supervision. So in that world, it's not much different than looking up video games during class. As they mentioned, it was hunting. It was Michigan ffs. More kids than not had probably looked up bullets during class. If he was looking up "how to kill everyone in my school..." then yeah. Or "how to sneak a gun into my school and not get caught..." Yes. And don't just kick him out, call the authorities and take him in for questioning! But this wasn't that. He was a "quiet, sweet, kid who was a little depressed due to circumstances" from what they knew at the time.
Yes this is like saying bomb on an airplane
Sounds like all this guy did was hand the gun back to the kid
Wow - powerful statement. Unfortunately spot on.
You’re a Monday Quarterback my friend. He explained the protocol in potential search.
This judge is so passive, shows total disinterest in all the proceedings
I agree! Like she’s going over her grocery list in her head..
Yes the judge seems so inexperienced like she is not like any judge I have ever seen in a criminal court. She has got to be new , shy, bashful or all the above.
@@bluetomato8698 hehe😂
Yes agree - I thought she was asleep yesterday when the camera went to her
The judge is supposed to be a quiet observer during this portion of trial, and merely serves as a referee of the rules. The judge will give her thoughts at the end.
How about a degree in common sense!?
…..or proper grammar
Regardless of the childs mental state she should have never bought a minor a gun. Taking a kid shooting and owning your own gun as a parent is one thing (being responsible and locking it up when you get home) and a kid figuring out the code and stealing it, to I bought a minor a gun.
Both parents are guilty on that account.
Regardless if its your son or not you all should have not tried to cover up his crimes you should have been honest from the beginning. Since they knew and didn't call the police to say it was him they should get guilty by accomplice.
@EM-ej7qm I agree the parents should not have bought him a gun. Admittedly, though, I am entirely against guns and gun ownership of any kind, so I am biased. The culture surrounding this school is very different from mine. The dean even said the kids pose for photo shoots with their guns all the time.
But I do hold the school equally, if not MORE responsible for the school shooting than the parents. The school counselor is supposedly a “mental health professional” worried about suicide but failed to ask the parents if they have guns in the home or whether he has ever complained of voices.
The dean just lets kids watch movies during class about shooting people???
It’s not a disciplinary problem to draw pictures of guns on your math worksheet during class? “No,” he says it’s a mental health issue instead.
Then why didn’t they check his back pack for something he could hurt himself with? Why did they give the parents 48 hours to get a danger assessment and just leave him at school?
Why are only the parents on trial????
Hunting culture is huge in Michigan due to years of deer overpopulation. I live 30 minutes away from Oxford & it’s actually really common for kids to start hunting with their dads around 12 years old… In michigan the DNR lets kids hunt and fish just the same amount as any adult would, their parent just needs to pick up a hunting/fishing license at any gas station and follow the quantity limit. You can take home one deer per season, but this year they could tag one a day to donate the meat to veteran/homeless shelters also. My high school even has its own trap team, which is target shooting for sport
@@xxmvvipeople who don’t get it don’t want to get it. Iykyk. But I agree with you. The area I live in is the same way. Country kids and city kids are completely different breeds of kids.
@@xxmvviamen
@@keemarie1yeah that’s what I’ve noticed too , and gun free places have such a completely different view on guns . It blows my mind .
Like do we live in the same country?!
Sooooo the drawings & statements on the math assignment left you no suspicion of Ethan’s SERIOUS state of mind or contents in his backpack Mr. Ejack?! To say you “dropped the ball” in doing your job is a massive understatement!!!! I hope this gentleman never holds a position as Dean of students again!
But the parents gave explanations for those drawings. He clearly said that. The parents were adamant that the drawings were for gaming design!! They should have taken their son home. If the parents “didn’t” see it how do you expect anyone else to especially when the parents are defending his actions and giving excuses!!!
@@keemarie1 you see no error on this individual’s part? It’s clear to some of us anyway.
@@CutandShoot5x5- this dean will live with this bad decision not to check the backpack, not to ask about access to firearms for the rest of his life, bc of the irresponsibility of these two gun owners and parents…. The school teachers and admin told parents to come have a meeting, assuming like most parents they wld take him home w them. He did not for one second think this child had a gun in the bag, which was his mistake; but to blame the school for what this kids parents allowed him to do is ridiculous. The 1 good thing is from here on out; I bet admin can and will ask the question at parent meeting in regard to mental health and hopefully be able to force parents to take child home. Esp since video games /online /SM will be likely excuse of all similar art … that I’m sure happens both innocently and maliciously simultaneously in every school across America.
@@angieed1980 I very much agree with your comment! I think 🤔 the problem with making a limited comment like mine leaves out too much. The Parents are culpable in this awful case as you rightly point out. Thank you for your comment!
My 15 year old son came to me one night and was in tears and told me he wished he were dead. I got on his Dr. office portal, sent a message to them, they called me first thing the next morning and he was seen that day. How, why, would a mother or father, not take any comment regarding their child’s mental health seriously? I don’t understand. That poor kid screamed for help and the two people who were supposed to protect him and help him, just literally turned him away. And so many people suffered in ways no parent, kid, teacher, etc, should ever endure. This was so preventable. 100% parents daily started way before the drawing surfaced.
The parents are liable…but the way the school and this Dean handled this is unbelievable - the school is also liable!
That man looks like a character from Inglorius Bastards 😂
OmG he does totally
I am so livid not just the neglect of the parent's, but how this school had a child in extreme crisis in their care & they just kept passing the buck! No accountability or transparency! Just internally investgated, then powers that be just move to another location! So much more important that children wear masks that did nothing to protect them, while ignoring a teen in serious crisis with clear neglectful parent's! Huge fail on the schools part!
His comment about the weight of the backpack is so concerning! If you saw one piece of paper and got worried why not look at his notebooks in his backpack see if there is a suicide note , more disturbing material .. I mean jeez what is a two min examination of some notebooks. Concerning. Not excusing the parents but come on far as school officials really feel they dropped the ball
The county children’s services should have been notified if there was any doubt this child wasn’t going directly to some kind of therapy/intervention etc. We had a whole team at our school last week for a suicidal student (who was completely calm, not threatening).
Yes, why did the school not call CPS? They are mandated reporters, and this was a clear sign of medical neglect on the parents' part. When they refused to take him home and then get him psychiatric care ASAP, then instead of sending him back to class they should've kept him in the office with an adult keeping an eye on him and waited for CPS to send somebody out.
If you watch the interview of the school counselor, he says that his plan was to follow up about Ethan the next morning and if there had been no counseling intervention, then he was going to call child protective services
@@user-kp6we9qw7i -- Good that the counselor documented this plan, because it sounds like at least one family is planning on suing the school district on behalf of a surviving child who was injured in the shooting.
Might not be a bad idea for school protocols to change after this case, if the reason they are requesting psychiatric evaluation ASAP involves a student who has produced violent language in a written assignment, or otherwise created violent imagery in a school setting. There should probably be more detailed questions about firearms in the home, storage of those firearms, and authorization for schools to check backpacks, purses, pockets and lockers without having to get a warrant or having to get permission from the parents.
@@user-kp6we9qw7i He backtracked, because he'd previously said after 48 hours.
Another issue is the fear of the teachers being sued by parents. It wasn't like that in my days at school.
No it sure wasn’t in mine either.
It's bizarre these days how so many people live in so many varieties of fear - of being attacked, of being sued, of being accused of racism, of breaking the law, of becoming a victim of the laws, of the laws being enforced, of the laws *not* being enforced, of being rejected, of intimacy, of failure, of success, of the unknown, of their own secrets being exposed, of not being known, of viruses, of vaccines...and on and on.
And yet look at how much these things happen because of the very fears themselves...look at how many of them create the fear of the opposite happening. Our entire society has become simply bizarre in so many ways.
For the life of me, why wasnt this kid's book bag searched?!
He explained the protocol.
They all truly didn't think he would ever hurt anyone. I don't think it crossed their minds in the slightest that he might have brought a gun to school with him that day. Even the parents. If the parents had any doubt, they WOULD have checked his bag because you know they wouldn't want to get in trouble for him doing "something stupid" as Jen would say. They could have even pulled him aside to "talk to him privately" to check his bag without anyone witnessing it if they were scared about that, but I just don't think they were worried about it until the moment they got the active shooter alert. Then it all came crashing together...
If the parents would have told the school that he had access to a gun then the outcome would likely be different, but there’s no way to go back and change what happened now.
WHY WASN’T HE SEARCHED AND HAD A LOCKER CHECK IMMEDIATELY??
they should have done a whole physical search, locker search and given him suspension until the parents made arrangements for him! he was a mess! nobody cared and everyone failed him!! that paper was a cry for health and nobody heard him. it was so incredibly preventable and every single adult in his life failed to help him. that sort of environment WOULD create a school shooter! DUH!
They weren’t using lockers at that time however, his backpack and stuff should have been searched that day. This email was sent and the same day the 30th when his parents were at the school.
The counselor thought he has suicidal thinking not harmful to anyone
If parents told the teacher they bought a gun during the meeting they could have searched
@@tammyirwin703yes the locker thing was irrelevant anyway because he had the gun in his backpack.
@@sibelc.380he was looking up bullets in class and on the paper it was very violent. why would anyone in that school allow him to go back to class?
Exactly!!!!
To everyone saying “the school should have checked his backpack” THE PARENTS should have checked his backpack. They knew he had access to a gun.
His mom didn’t know. She assumed the husband had taken care of gun, ie locking up. She had hid bullets….
She was the last one with the gun.@@fnhc2023
@lisaandrews919 they showed pictures of bullets right out in the open in their house! They were not put away and also they bought him the gun! Obviously there going to give him access to bullets its ridiculous
@@elizabethann4701 They didn't just "give him the gun" though. They were (usually) storing it in their bedroom. They didn't hand it to Ethan and say, "here, go into the world and enjoy your new toy with some ammo here!" They bought him a gun and were just going to take him shooting at the range with supervision, and in between, the gun would be in their possession. He had never acted out with a gun before, and they had others in the house, so they didn't expect him to with this new gun either. They didn't take extra precautions to lock that one up extra tight like they SHOULD have. But they were just too trusting and too in denial simultaneously.
@@fnhc2023 did you listen to the mom‘s testimony? She said she “took away” his gun and the shooting range. Then when asked about what she said, she denied that she said she took his gun away and said she only said that she took the shooting range away. Sounds like an obvious slip on her part. She also said the night before the shooting she took away his cell phone, but it was also found that he recorded a 19 minute video at 10 PM during the time his cell phone had been taken away. A lot of conflicting reports came out of the mom’s testimony.
When i was in high school guys used to have 🔫 racks on the back window with a loaded 🔫 so they could go hunting on Friday immediately after school.
My heart goes out to the victims, their families and friends.
Kids weren't F-up'ed on violent video games, social media, left alone for hours without family cohesion. I saw the same thing growing at my high school and didn't think nothing of it. Went home and had dinner as a family every night.
Same- very different times we’re living in.
@@amc2510 You're exactly right. Also if I got in trouble at school, I was in more trouble at home.
This dean needs to lose his job.....nothing was a glaring red flag to this “professional”.......it’s obvious he was ill-equipped and woefully inexperienced dealing with socially and emotionally disturbed individuals.
Or totally clueless if there is a dangerous situation with a stident he should never work in a school again
FORMER says it all. How did he get a recommendation to transfer to ANY public school district?
As a H.S. sub teacher, I noticed an angry written answer, took all the papers to the office, and asked to see the school psychologist. "No you cant see her".Then the admin looked at the violent answer again, and ran to the psychologist's office. End of day...the admin thanked me for bringing it to everyone's attention.
Isn't it amazing how many people protect themselves right into civil or criminal court?
We need more substitutes like you! Thanks for taking it seriously. :)
I worked in the schools for decades as a SLP. Dean of Students is a title that gets an office, a larger salary and a bit more status. They do as little real work as possible besides show up at IEP meetings as required to sign off as administrators. They essentially follow the lead of the executive or vice principals. The Dean had a responsibility to check that backpack because of those disturbing drawings. Probable cause. Those babies lost their lives because of parental AND school administration neglect.
100% agreed !!! He should also face some type of charges !!!!!!!
Totally agree @@MaryPerez-o1u
This dude should definitely be part of a lawsuit! He had way more to do with the outcome than he would admit! And to think he works for another school district now! Protect ur kids cause he won’t.
And to think these parents are a trial for involuntary manslaughter when they wouldn’t be if he would’ve done his due diligence, that’s what makes me angry
@tammyirwin703 they called the parents in but they wouldn't take him home...the school didn't know he owned a gun but the parents did.. Ethans their responsibility...its their fault...the school is there to teach kids...
Nope, it's all the parents fault. That's what they want everyone to believe, the school staff was caring and loving. Covering their own butts and throwing the mom under the bus.
@@annebosworth7048he stole the gun out of the locked gun cabinet at home, the parents had no idea he had a gun on him.
James Crumbley stated where the gun and ammo was located during the first interview. It was not in a locked safe.
The School was extremely negligent!!! They need to be held accountable for the part they share in this horrible tragedy!!
Mrs. Crumbley did not want to take him home because she was getting busy at Costco. She left him in school even though him may have been suicidal. Unbelievable. Lock her up.
I teach in Florida and I don’t know what planet this guy is living on! The drawings of guns, watching a violent video game, etc.. did not raise any level concern???? Are you kidding me?? He has blood on his hands on this one! He is not living in the same world we are living in! We have to look at all of these warning signs and take appropriate action!
Totally agree what a dodo he has blood on his hands definitely
THE HORSES GOT MORE ATTENTION!!! SICKENING!!!
I've been seriously depressed and my counselor or therapist always asked if I had a plan, did I want to hurt others. Basic logic.
I think my first question to the parents would have been are there any guns in the home, and if so, are they locked up, while noticing his gun drawings, and violent drawings. That is a huge missed opportunity from the school! At that point, that is when they should have made the decision whether to search him and keep him at school or send him home. I think all of these adults failed big time!!
Right!!! That's what I don't understand why nobody asked about the guns in the home & his access to them. Even if they thought he was suicidal. Was the school resource officer called in?
@katemb72 EXACTLY!
@AnRey18 The mental health professional is required to ask whether there are guns in the home if he thinks a kid is suicidal. He asked NOTHING like that.
I wonder if a lot of students are drawing violent things given video games etc so it didn’t seem so out of the ordinary
If nothing else after these cases are decided, I hope this prompts school personnel around the country to include questions like that in every case, when they're dealing with a troubled kid. Don't just let parents downplay the situation. They'll probably have to come up with a much more detailed protocol of various questions to ask.
Unreal that this dean had the bag with the gun while discussing extremely violent drawings of a depressed/struggling kid.
A heavy backpack??
That is reasonable suspicion right there!
Numerous school shootings should have raised these red flag behaviors to the level of suspicion/investigation and discipline!
He was obviously well coached for this questioning but
this dean was extremely negligent in his discernment of the situation.
"There was no threat present at the time ?"
ALERT the police resource officer and let them decide.
All the dean's word salads will never replace the lack of common sense. Some of his responses were flippant at times.
I feel so sad for his lack of judgement.
Hope other schools learn from this.
How can any of these adults sleep at night?
All these people knew something wasn't right and yet, none of them did anything in the hours before this horrific event to prevent it. (IMO) T he parents are guilty, as well as all the people at the school who felt something wasn't right that morning. I think that as soon as the Crumbly's refused to take their child home. That CPS, should have been called and the child removed from them. My heart breaks for all the victims
He failed Ethan!!! He also failed all the other students! He was in over his head!!!
He should've been suspended but he still would not have been seen by a mental health professional.
@vaniareyneke4761 The school could have called the local mental health crisis line and gotten him a same day assessment. They didn’t!
They had no cause to suspend him! But they should have called authorities when it was clear the Mom didn't take it seriously & appeared to do nothing to help her son!
@@amberam7437The parent's should be the first ones who called! The school is supposed to be back up, not primary in our children's care & well being!
@@cristineconnell7803 Theres an entire Michigan Law written for schools to follow a protocol around campus safety which is the school’s responsibility.
When his parents refused to take him out of school that day, and get him an urgent psychiatric evaluation, the school should've called CPS. Not taking their son for desperately needed medical attention was neglect, and schools are mandated reporters when they see evidence of neglect or abuse.
Granted, they wouldn't be able to take him directly to a psychiatrist, they would've had to start with the emergency room. But he still should've been taken someplace immediately.
He was bothered about him getting the mental health he needed but no concern that he could possibly be a school shooter what the hell !
The whole thing is a mess. "Dean Of Students" was no help. I don't understand why Ethan wasn't on the school's radar long before this happened. The kid was drawing guns and violence and no one asked the parents about guns in the family? No one cked the back pack. Also I don't why the school thought this kid could get counseling within the same day. Might have to wait several days, unrealistic. Parents needed counseling too. Parents and school dropped the ball.
The school was criminally negligent, The school planned to call CPS the next day they were so concerned, but did NOT ask if the son had access to a gun. Did not suspend him on the spot and/or call the Police while looking at test answers which only included an actual drawing of a gun, a bleeding body and HELP ME written on it.
@@julianyc422I don’t understand why CPS wasn’t called when parents refused to take him home. That part would have prevented the rest. Seems there were many excuses and exceptions made!
@@AnnaMorris411there was no time to call CPS, he started shooting after the meeting on the same day!
There are always phone lines that can be called
Right…the school felt he needed counseling THAT DAY…but didn’t have “reasonable suspicion” to search his backpack or have him removed from school. The parents are liable…but the school messed up big time as well.
All school officials need to study Columbine and Parkland .
Why? What can Oxford learn from those tragedies?
And Uvalde
@@scottlosey4978 haha right? Maybe what not to do all over again? Since those schools certainly were not successful in preventing a shooting at their schools either...
@@EastmanEditing Yeah...the decision making by kids whether it be Oxford, Columbine, Uvalde, Sandy Hook, or etc. is just as incomprehensible as it is confusing. I have been a staff member at a poor, relatively impoverished school district in Southwestern Michigan for the past three years. Because I work in tandem with the Vice Principal as the school disciplinarian, there are always a couple of students that I especially keep tabs on and go out of my way to to to develop relationships with....to learn about their home lives, their aspirations, their interactions with students and staff. From my study of those with whom perpetrate such acts like school shootings, the one prevailing factor in nearly every student perpetrated shooting is a complete and utter lack of any connection to the school whatsoever. Most, if not all, student shooters have zero connection to teachers, staff, and other students....this includes their parents or guardians having no connection to the school as well. For this reason, as previously stated, I take the time to talk to these kids and remind them that I believe in them and that I am always available to talk even in private if that makes them more comfortable. While I understand that this may be tangibly easier to accomplish in smaller schools, larger school districts do, without question, possess greater funding to hire people with whom are willing to develop relationships with "fringe" students. I am certainly no expert, but I honestly believe that school districts have a responsibility to get to know their student body and avail themselves to let each student know that they are valued and that no one student's well being is anymore valuable than any other. While this fundamental premise or "procedural protocol" does not guarantee that a tragedy will not occur, teacher and staff engagement with the student body should not constitute above and beyond expectations, but, rather inherent interactions based upon the reasonable responsibilities we all have as adults who choose to work in education. 90 percent of teachers, staff, and administration that I know choose to work in education because we care about getting these young people ready for a difficult and complex world...provide an environment where mistakes and poor decision making can be made and addressed (with the development of remedial action plans that enforce the concept of self accountability and consequences to por behavior and decision making) without suffering life altering consequences post high school such as loss of employment, criminal proceedings, or otherwise. I can honestly assert that I do not go to work each day only for the paycheck.....good thing because you will not find millionaires in the field of education. Does this make sense? Again, I want to reiterate that I am no expert....just offering my observations given the vantage point that I have each and every school day.
The loss of authority in education professionals has a lot to do with Jennifer being able to leave her son in school, contrary to the opinion of educators.
And does anyone believe that Attorney Smith was studying every minute in high school, never passing notes, reading something she shouldn't? Heck, I was part of a running poker game in Algebra -- because some of us got our work done a whole lot faster than the rest!
Ngl sometimes I have a hard time believing Attorney Smith went to school.
OMG…making a joke about how heavy the backpack…after being alerted to a gun drawing. .???
Yeah that is really really sick.
Exactly !! Drawing guns and blood .. doesn’t reach level of concern !!?!!?! SICK !! Isn’t even the word most would describe this joke of A Dean of Students!!!!!
The problem is many parents expect the internet to entertain their children and then when they harm others they want to deny responsibility.
I’m not a teacher or in any way an expert on threat assessment, but it would seem to me that the drawings and words on the math paper would concern me enough that I would want a mental health evaluation before allowing him to return to school. Also, I would have notified the police.
Common sense is what you have and district personnel lacked.
It is also the responsibility of the school administration to safeguard the security of the students during school hours. They knew he was drawing bizarre pictures, bullets, they knew his family took him to the shooting range and there were guns in the home, didnt they? The parents knew. In no way could the parents be bothered with their only son's safety and well-being by seeking immediate psychological help recommended by the school counselor. They simply left him at school to his own device. And the relative horrific consequences and fate.
My son took one of his dad's shell casings and put it on a piece of paper when he was writing about soldiers in the war and we were contacted by the school. Totally innocent but he was 10 years old and got in more trouble than Ethan did. So sad and scary that they didn't take his math paper more seriously....
The defence attorney going after the Dean of students for not sending Ethan home for "discipline" was weird, this was clearly a mental health issue, he hadn't been violent yet and Jennifer provided the excuses saying his drawing was because he wants to design video games?
As though designing violent video games is healthy because you can make money at it.
@@ohyesby Yeah and describes Ethan as a "great at drawing" yet she thought it was a bad drawing of Batman on the worksheet and not blood.. She plays dumb too much i hope the Jury see's through it
I sure hope the school changed its policies since this mass killing. Ridiculous how the school handled this…
She's nothing but a whiny child like
Ethan was failed so terribly by so many people that day. It is astonishing to me that this witness remains in education and has found employment
The defense attorney is making a strategic error. By objecting to the lack of foundation with witnesses who (she should know) can easily demonstrate foundation by citing the scope and depth of their experience, she ends up making the jury place more weight on their testimony than the jurors might otherwise. She's taken away the ability to portray the witnesses as making decisions on soft grounds.
I am GenX. Something has changed in our society and access to guns is NOT what has changed. I grew up in a town that had this same "gun culture". I got my first gun for Christmas when I was 9. I stored the gun and the ammo in my bedroom. By the time I was in HS I had multiple guns, including the loaded handgun I kept in my car that I drove to school everyday. Many of my classmates did the same. We were taught gun safety from an early age. We didn't have school councilors. I didn't have a good home life. I was THE kid everyone picked on growing up. It never entered my mind that shooting up the school was even an option. It never entered the mind of any of my friends who had full access to guns and ammo. Point is, something has changed in our society and access to guns is not it.
I am a GenX'er that completely agrees with you. Something has changed in our society. It's so disheartening.
This dean was totally wrong in his decisions..especially not look into his bookbag?? ??? Are you kidding? A drawing with gun's ?? This was a pure indication that this kid was mentally in trouble...it was clear
Staff and parents have to understand each student problems is everyone’s problems. They can’t ignore it anymore. They need to help each other. They might pay for it if they don’t. He obviously had visible problems and no one tried to help in the whole dam school
He seems to be covering his assets. 😂😂😂
Agreed. Kinda sketchy
My son snuck off campus to go to lunch and was searched when he got back to school. They even made him take off his shoes. All he did was go to McDonald’s.
How many Hurt Feelings employees are on staff at these schools?!!! We are creating a society that is so crippled by feelings that i doubt we have very many years left in this super power nation.
So right!!
Leta not forget what this case is about. Violence n coldness created a monster...not softness and being sensitive about his emotions. If they had cared about his emotions they wouod have gotten him help a long time ago...
True. We're becoming so liberal that the countries that embrace the opposite of liberalism are starting to watch us like hungry vultures.
That man has no business being dean. He keeps dropping the ball on everyone else & not once takes responsibility. Shame on him & I'm very leary as to where he earned his MA degree. All the evidence evidence was there. He kept pushing mental health issues, but he is not a psychologist to make that determination. Bad school districts.
As a parent I would be upset with the staff at the school. If he drew pictures of drugs would his backpack been checked? He needed to be sent home and manatory to seek help before he could return to school.
Go back and watch EC trial. A deaf dumb and blind person would know this kid is trouble and needed immediate help from anyone
I was crying so many times during the Miller hearings. He had been begging for help in his own confused way for years. Going back to when he was a little boy showing up on the neighbor's porch in the middle of the night because his parents left him alone to go out and party.
His life didn't have to turn out this way, and those four other kids didn't need to die. There were so many points along the way that intervention could've changed everybody's destiny.
Poor parenting is the cause of this terrorism. It is not the school’s fault.
I meeaaaaaaannn, it sort of is. They saw so many red flags and did NOTHING but hand him his gun back
True Failure of the school !!! Some charges need to be filed tooo!!!!!!
So, discipline comes before mental health?. I think American schools need to rethink their priorities.
That drawing, Ethan drew, screamed at ALL of you, you all could have saved lives, including Ethan's!! Unbelievable !! Huge burden to carry now.
I see no evidence that the counselor or anybody else asked the obvious questions and it disturbs me to know this guy continues to work in education, they should have fired the counselor without hesitation but that would have ben seen as an admission of the district's liability
Definitely think the parents were negligent and detached, but this Dean, who is highly educated and experienced with troubled kids, discipline etc. and had the authority to force the shooter to go home, had to authority to search the “unusually heavy” backpack-Failed- at every turn. The school has contributory negligence responsibility.
The defense attorney speaks awkwardly but makes the point: if all of these things - the bullet search, the violent video, the math paper comments- did not rise to the level for this Dean to issue any “discipline” or search his backpack, and he’s the educated “professional” the student’s parents rely on, how could you expect the parents to be held to a higher standard when they had less information?
Ah man your comment makes me sad about the fact that the average dumb juror will use this same logic. The parent will ALWAYS have more information about their kid. He LIVES with them.
I got so much flack for homeschooling my daughter.....I was scared some crap like this would happen. There are amazing parents out there then there are parents like this. Ethan needed his mom and dad, but they were too busy doing their own thing. My child needed me and I was there. I wasn't perfect, but I for sure was there when she needed to talk!
I am older and don't have children. If I did have school aged children I would home school them too. Good for you for being a caring parent and doing what you know is right in your heart. I would be terrified to be a parent, student or teacher.
It is unreal to me that his actions that morning didn’t warrant looking in his backpack. Teachers were warning administrators and they did absolutely nothing.
Omg he gave Ethan his backpack back and didn’t check it. Holy crap how awful 😢
The parents AND the school failed Ethan. This ultimately led to failing to protect the other students. Such a TRAGEDY! 😥😥💙💙
This man should have called 911 as soon as anything considering a gun came up, I'm sorry that's really bad when school shootings are a real thing. This man and the mother and father and dean really dropped the ball !!
If mom is guilty than so is this Dean. If they wwould have looked in his bag all may have been stoped .
This child was failed not only by his parents but the school as well. The administrators should also be being held accountable along side the parents. Tragic.
Lots of people saying everyone let him down but the teachers did not let him down... they reported it again and again. The counselor let him down. Even worse...The counselor let all the students down. He should have had weekly sessions with Ethan and reported it to the parents from the beginning. He was the one who had formal training with kids in these situations. Im pretty sure he wasnt genuinely spending time to figure things out. He did the bare minimum.
I am all about parental accountability but so far i dont think they've proven this being so obvious to the point they be charged. The initial texts show that they initially thought he committed suicide. Everyone was oblivious that he was a harm to others.
Still have to see the rest of the trial but so far i think the burden is mostly on the school counselor but again no one believed it rose to that level. Parents should be accountable civily but not criminally.
Agreed. I have watch this case from pre-trial and have been OBJECTIVE the whole time and I don’t see any glaring evidence either.
When I read all the comments, it’s kind of annoying to see people kind of side with the prosecutors . And I think it’s natural because this is a horrible case and we all want justice to be done.
But I think folks need to realize that this is a slippery slope, and it will create such a harsh new precedent that we can be charged with the crime that someone else committed
You can't just call a therapist in a day sometimes u can't get in for months .
Agreed. But my guess is they wanted to at least see “effort” made.
Not if someone is suicidal
That is completely true about not being able to get immediate appointments with a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but in that situation you take your child to the emergency room to get the process started.
And the ER is unfortunately pretty used to this by now, for both adult and pediatric patients needing psychiatric care, because we have lost 90% of our inpatient psychiatric beds since the 1980s due to the closing of psychiatric hospitals, through a combination of politicians making budget cuts and misguided ideas about "mainstreaming" even the most severely mentally ill patients back into society.
So even patients who are already known to have major psychiatric problems, the kind that used to be an automatic admission to a psych hospital, now have to go through the ER first, and even then there isn't always going to be an open bed they can transfer them to.
They have to sometimes keep these patients in observation in the ER for days, or set them up with a very insufficient "day hospitalization" program where the patient is only there about six hours per day, and then the family still has to find a way to supervise them the rest of the time.
Right. Exactly. Especially, at that time. We were trying to find therapist for our son in early 2021 and it took many months to get him in an appointment with anybody. Even this past December I needed to make an appointment for my son and I am still on a “ waiting list “until at least mid March. He’s it’s just Adhd not like in a crisis mode like this kid but we found that very few actual therapists even want to take kids as clients. We called so many places.
The defense attorney is behaving like a child and throwing tantrums.
This dean is a clown
On all thoughts aside about the school and their part in this. How long has this lawyer been practicing? Im curious because it doesnt seem as if she understands how to do her job
She was Larry Nassers attorney.
@@itsjustlaurel1531😨
Seems like a greenhorn to me too.
The decision of the case seems a tough call for the jury. Could go either way.
This administrator seems sketchy. Don’t really trust him…
This guy is doing a whole ton of CYA. Good cross examination by the defense attorney.
I’m sorry but this school administrator seems incompetent
The school is responsible for their overall student body… and the fact that bullets were being discussed as well as a gun drawn by the same student should have been a red flag given the fact that there have been several school shootings prior to this one and schools should not take anything for granted. Not to mention, they expected the parents to obtain a counseling session within hours in the same day during the Covid pandemic is absurd. As a psychiatrist, I can tell you that that would have been nearly impossible.
This principle is self serving. He was as much responsible as the parents. I don’t think the parents should be charged, but since they are, so should this principle and the councillor.
You should be charged for your spelling gaffes.
@@loveforeignaccents is that all you have?
@@kimberlythomas1286 No. Now I think you should have capitalized the I in "is" in your reply.
@@loveforeignaccents You need to go back to grammer lessons in grade 5. You do not capitalize the "i" in is.
@@kimberlythomas1286 When you start a sentence, you always capitalize the first letter. Take a nap, dear.
I believe the killer already decided to shoot ..those papers and searching bullet stuff are only getting attention
I don't! I think it was a desperate reaction to the inaction his cries for help weren't getting!
@@cristineconnell7803 he brought gun already..also one night ago family had arguments about his acedemic score!he decided to do.
@@sibelc.380-- Go back and watch the Miller hearings for Ethan, especially when the prison psychiatrist testified. Not only had he been crying out for help for months, texting his mother when he was having hallucinations and begging her to come home, and asking his parents to get him in to see somebody, there were messages between him and a friend about how he had asked his parents to take him to a psychiatrist, and they laughed him off.
Writing "help me "and other things on the papers, and taking the gun to his school in his backpack, things he did in the hopes that somebody at school would see what was wrong, and force his parents to get him medical attention for his hallucinations.
The reason he was not nervous sitting in that office with the school personnel, and his parents is that he thought for sure somebody would be searching his backpack, and when they found the gun, that would be an immediate ticket to a psychiatric evaluation.
Granted, Ethan also could have told everybody in the office right then that he had a gun in his backpack and he had been thinking about shooting people. That would've gotten the immediate attention he needed, and the other four kids would still be alive.
Every grown-up drop the ball in this case, except for that one teacher, who first brought the drawing to the attention of the principal and the counselors. She took it seriously and everybody else after her didn't follow up properly.
And of course the parents have been neglecting him for years
A drawing like like Ethan's did not rise to the level of searching his backpack?
Are we all gonna sit here and pretend he doesn’t look like Hitler’s baby brother?
Even the hair!
😂😂😂😂😂
Why did the counselor send Ethan back to class before the Crumbley’s even sat down?
He should’ve told him to have a seat, talk to the parents, then meet with all of them together.
By sending him back to class it gave the impression it wasn’t an immediate concern.
The school is covering their @$$ and the counselor lied on the stand because HE was the one who could’ve impressed IMMEDIATE concern of getting treatment THAT DAY.