In a New Hope there wasn't a single situation where a single X-Wing (or Y-Wing for that matter) was able to shake a TIE Fighter off its own tail. The Rebels always needed a wingman to 'clear six' for them.
That would actually make sense because the Tie is more maneuverable than the X-Wing. If the pilots were evenly matched it would be extremely difficult for the less maneuverable X-Wing to shake off a Tie Fighter.
Very much like war in the Pacific at the beginning. The only way to clear a Zero from you r rear was to fly scissors with your wingman, so you both fly parallel at some distance and as some Zero goes behind, they approach each other so wingman fires head on.
Surprisingly you left out the Tie's biggest advantage: It can pivot it's guns. During the trench run, there are - _several_ - scenes where the Tie is NOT directly behind the Y/X-wing, but it still hits the ship by pivoting it's guns, thus never having to get directly behind them.
Yeah but if you want to count that then you got Y and A wings that can do the same. The big reason we never see the turret fire in the movies is that they dropped the gunner so the pilot has to manually aim the guns while piloting. You have to admit that would be great for strafing runs. Fly parallel and just hose down your target with ion fire.
at 0:47 theres a scene where an x-wing shoots its lasers off centre-line axis implying pivotable laser mounts for the X-wing as well. it doesnt make a huge amount of sense but that may not be an advantage if they both have it.
@@sheilaolfieway1885 That's not the same thing. WWII fighter planes wing guns converged at a focal point in front of the plane. But, they did not pivot as they were fixed onto the wings just like the X-wing.
Regarding converging gun lines: in WW2, most planes had an ability to adjust the converging distance, but it was something that had to be done on the ground, with tools. Some squadrons dictated the converging ranges for all planes. Some planes and squadrons used a different converging range for each pair of guns if the plane had more than one per wing. For example, the outer pair would converge at a greater distance then the inner pair. And there were some pilots who were able to choose their own converging range(s). I wish I could remember the name, but I saw a documentary on a pilot who set his convergence very close because he preferred to dogfight tightly. There was another pilot who set his very far out, because he shot planes like a duck hunter by leading them in high-deflection angles, and sending rounds out to where they would be, not by getting in behind them. The second pilot dealt with command not believing his shootdown numbers because his targets rarely appeared on his gun camera.
@@mechag7379 The P38 could be a BEAST! I saw a documentary on some of the gun options for that plane, from a near dozen 50 caliber machine guns to outright autocannons.
@@MonkeyJedi99 IIRC it had a 20mm cannon in addition to its array of .50's. Scary, _scary_ plane it was. If I recall correctly, the Japanese coined it the "twin-tailed devil." It also was the plane that killed one of Japan"s greatest fleet admirals.
I honestly don't think George Lucas intended for the TIE to be what it's typically viewed as (thanks to the EU). I suspect that he intended the TIE to be equal or even superior to an X-wing, making the point of how "plucky" the Rebellion was. This shows in how the TIE is "clean," as are its pilots, who are in full flight suits not because of necessity, because they can afford it. In contrast the Rebellion has to make due with obsolete fighters and pieced old jumpsuits that aren't going to actually do anything should you end up in vacuum. Basically the EU made the main characters' plot armor part of the X-wing, rather than just accepting it as plot armor.
Yeah the EU made a lot of badly fanfiction "canon" which made no sense. One most wonder how the empire became a thing when there troops are bad, the ships are fragil to the point that a strange look can destroy them and even their main battleships get wrecked the moment they fight a force far smaller, far less developed and with fewer resources like the moncalamari...
Well Lucas supposedly use Battle Of Britain footage instead of the SF Dogfights when first asked to show the studio what he was making. Those had dogfights between Harriers and Spitfires versus Messerschmitt Bf 109E's. There's marginal differences in performance and handling between the 109 and Spitfire. I think that's what Lucas wanted with TIEs and X-Wings.
Yeah the WW2 analogy was apt, Zeroes vs Wildcats was always the best fit, although anything with a parity like 109s and Spitfires works. The EU such as the earliest RPG's and the first X-Wing games had to have the player characters survive against dozens of enemies for the fun of that encounter and that was forever codified by the books and games on and on. This video is an exccllent counterpoint to the decades of that and I always wish for there to be something closer in portraly to the original films in all the expanded content.
If I remember right, I think the X-wing series by Stackpole addresses this. The shields on the rebel fighters allow new pilots to survive their "mistakes", while in the tie line mistake = death. This led to more seasoned pilots in the rebel fleet. But in the hands of an expert or ace, the tie was the superior fighter. Other things to consider, the Imperial Fleet was not built around countering the Rebel fleet, and the X-wings, A-wings, and B-wings were all newly developed during or just before the rebellion kicked off in earnest. Most of what the imperial fleet was dealing with would have been far outclassed by the Tie line. The Tie Defender the empire developed as a counter made rebel fights look like a joke.
Imagine if either Pryce didn't fuck up or Ezra didn't yeet himself and Thrawn into uncharted space. TIE Defender Project could have changed the Battle of Yavin
Loved how Stackpole really got into the fighter pilot mentality with the shield and mistake bit and how Reb pilots "dialed up" the internal compensator to the point they couldn't feel their ship or how badly they were damage and pull a "Porkins". Wealth of starfighter knowledge if unrealistic pilots lore.
You must also take into account that even if the TIE pilots fought and survived an rebel attack ot does not mean that he will fight them again any time soon. There would be a million places with stationised TIE fighters and the rebells would rarely hit the same spot twice. It is safe to assume that TIE pilots have a greater life expectation that the rebell counterparts. Simply because most rebell missions where attacks. (Which can drain more pilots as otherwise) it is rarely even descriped how the rebel pilots feel since they are under constant stress because they could die every single day.
I also want to mention something that is noticed in the Rogue Squadron games. When fighting in space, the TIE series's design and paint color allow them to get some camouflage in space. Seeing the target is a bit difficult even when you have the red dot on your radar. Due to the fact that they all have similar designs, it can also be sometimes difficult to tell which TIE is which.
Considering how popular Top Gun Maverick is, I wish Star Wars would start integrating modern dogfighting techniques and maneuvers that were pioneered in the Jet Age instead of WWII. I mean imagine if the Rogue Squadron movie comes out and we see its pilots do modern maneuvers and using missiles and torpedoes more out of line of sight.
I think the bigest reason in-universe fore the close range battles is that the computers are good enough to block the targeting of guided missiles and torpedoes.
@@ArmouryTerrain We haven't seen jammers and even in the EU torpedoes and missiles are crucial anti-starfighter weapons. Hell Obi-wan's fighter would have been destroyed by a barrage of missiles in the Battle of Coruscant if the missile that beat his Eta-2's speed didn't just drop the gremlin droids on it.
Alternatively, imagine if Star Wars ships actually used manoeuvres from the zero friction, zero G environment they mostly fight in. Consider accelerating past a capital ship, only to flip backwards before reaching it, and using the main engines to set up a tight, fast circular orbit where the main weapons of the fighter are consistently pointed directly at the carrier or cruiser, whatever, not important. Imagine a squadron sliding sideways across a vessel while maintaining aim, leaving a trail of destruction in their wake before accelerating away on the same angle. Imagine a ship *actually* suited to zero-g combat: essentially the Death Star but of a more ordinary size and no main gun to either target or avoid, just mostly equal firepower and thrust in every directions. Imagine an actual fight in actual orbit, where accelerations are targeted and brief, adjusting orbital parameters to make or avoid attacks minutes or hours later like 3D space chess with lasers, surprise interceptions from orbits at 90 degree relative inclination, and vicious orbital debris capable of taking down significant ships should they wander into the path (or are tricked into doing so). Star Wars doesn’t take advantage of its setting for space combat
It wouldn't happen because modern dogfighting techniques, while similar to techniques of old (particularly of the 'energy school' of fighter combat), they tend to be BVR almost entirely. This is positively _boring_ for an audience outside of a handful of teams in _any_ visual medium that isn't simulator. Thus why we're stuck with essentially WW2 dogfighting. Period.
@@TheTrueAdept 'Positively boring'...Topgun Maverick kind of shoots down that theory there. Modern dogfighting is just as exhilarating as old school dodgfighting.
There is exactly 1 thing that really, really hurts the Tie as a design. It lacks shields. Shields allow a starfighter to take some hits (even if it’s not a flying tank; surviving a hit is better than not). Being able to survive contact with the enemy allows starfighter pilots to gain experience and actually get good. This is the major difference between rebel fighter pilots and imperial fighter pilots. The rebels survived contact with the enemy and developed experience that multiplied the skills they developed in training. Imperial pilots by and large did not. Add to the fact that the rebel alliance was small, and the empire enormous and you’re naturally going to have a greater percentage of fighting aces emerge from the rebel fighter corps. This means that the more skilled and experienced rebel pilots often engaged inexperienced and unprepared imperial pilots. The result was a very high K/D ratio among rebel pilots and an abysmal K/D ratio among imperial pilots. Throwing shields on a tie is not the solution to defeat the rebel alliance. All that really does is improve the tie’s K/D ratio and probably it’s reputation as well. I doubt i have enough room to explain how to defeat the rebellion's fighter tactics. but lets just say it's not easy.
Compounding the lack of durability is the fact that those wings are giant targets (source: have played the videogames), which makes it much easier to get in shots than it would be if they were more modest a la the TIE interceptor.
To be fair that just made any Imperial that survived considerably FAR more dangerous than the Rebel Aces. Anyone who could survive a literal glass cannon was going to be far more deadly flying the more expensive and specialized craft. The prestige of flying TIE Interceptors, Bombers, and Defenders which actually had shields was something for an Imperial pilot to work toward and unless you were a top notch Rebel Ace, even the most experienced Rebel pilots turned tail and ran when a 'Squint' showed up on IFF. The Empire's philosophy toward developing Aces was survival of the fittest which while made them lower in number, arguably made much better pilots to the point where when a specialist craft did show their head, most Rebels panicked and ran because they were facing a known Imperial Ace who had survived countless engagements with more durable opponents in a much more fragile craft making them absolutely fearless and terrifyingly skilled. They could afford those kind of losses and it was a mark of Pride in the Imperial Navy to be seen as the Galaxy's most feared and fearless pilots in the galaxy. If you were to walk up to any Imperial Pilot and suggest they should be using shields they'll look at you like you've grown an extra head and sneer at you suggesting you're a worthless coward who doesn't deserve to fly with the Empire's Best. You had to prove yourself to get access to the best equipment. It worked for the Empire in developing Aces that frankly outskilled most of their Rebel Counterparts. That isn't to say your point isn't valid ether. Having a larger contingent of experienced pilots who have survived engagements and trust in their equipment to protect them as opposed to a pack of panicky greenhorns would very much help carry the Rebels in the long run. There's less turnover, more camaraderie, and people don't need to constantly learn how everyone works which makes group operations much more smoothly. The Rebels and The Empire simply operated on two different philosophies. Both valid in their own way. It basically meant that any game changing moves came from the top down which is where it should be.
Well the thing is, Imperial Pilots were considered among the best in the galaxy (alot of Rebel aces are Imperial defectors) - though you are correct in everything else, the lack of a shield prevents the pilots from continuing in battle as long as the X-wing and other shielded ships could
An alternate interpretation on the low cost of the TIEs: it's not that they're "easily replaceable" so much as they are "readily available". That is to say, TIEs being inexpensive (as fighters go, anyway) means the Empire can basically hand them out like candy to any ship or base equipped with a tall enough ladder. That means most Imperial ships and bases will have their own fighter screen on hand. Not only does that give them another weapon, it gives them a HUGE degree of tactical flexibility for both offense and defense. It also means there is a training pipeline probably even bigger than the pilots' cranking out mechanics and technicians to work on the TIEs, who _also_ get farmed out to almost every base or ship. That is huge, especially for an empire as sprawling as the... uh... the Empire. I mean, consider how much of a logistical nightmare it must have been for the Rebels, trying to source parts and qualified mechanics from a dozen different manufacturers, for fighters that run the gamut from "bleeding-edge prototype" to "museum piece" to "scratch-built by an enthusiast in his garage", most of whom have complex moving parts - what a mess. It's a miracle they managed to kitbash _any_ serious force of strike craft into battle. By comparison, keeping TIEs in action would seem like simplicity itself: most of the systems carry over from one model to the next, there's probably huge degrees of parts compatibility, they're almost entirely solid-state with no moving parts, there are huge numbers of pilots and techs being pumped through their respective pipelines every day... SO much less of a logistical headache, even considering how the Empire hands out TIEs like party favors.
Well said. The Empire had everything it needed to make the best navy in the galaxy, and it's not so hard to argue that they did achieve that goal in part. The lots of the best minds, materials, labour, finance - even the Tarkin-Doctrine couldn't ruin that war-machine entirely. Shout out to all those people who make the magic happen!
Far too many people undervalue good logistics (see Russia). High maintenance costs ruin operational readiness and training. The TIE suited its role perfectly.
The ease of construction and low cost is perfect for the needs of the Empire, especially when you consider how quickly it needed to produce a lot of them. Another thing that is overlooked is that the TIE fighter was never really designed to fight the Rebellion. Their primary function would have been to deal with smugglers, pirates and raiders, not an organized military. We can see that the Empire had already taken steps to improve it's snub fighters with the introduction of the TIE bomber and TIE interceptor after the initial clashes with the Rebellion's X and Y wings.
In the EU, it's expressly mentioned that Rebel ships ended up being the spaceship version of custom-built PC's by a point: even if the outside "shell" is the same, the internal parts were just whatever the person maintaining them could afford and find - often even connected by basically hardwiring them together. There's one part where someone (I think Corran Horn) tries repair an old X-Wing and opens it up to discover that basically none of the parts are the parts are what it would have originally come with. This, of course, is a bit annoying, as Corran had just brought a bunch of standard x-wing parts to repair it with. So you're entirely right: the original rebellion was facing a logistical nightmare, which they seem to have dealt with by just not standardising anything.
I always thought that how the TIEs were portrayed in A New Hope was that they were fast, with good targeting systems, even as far to say as they were high tech compared to the X and Y Wings, but the X-Wings were more sturdy, and gave more of a feeling of good ol' reliable vehicles.
@@biggusdickus7611 RotJ also had a legion of the Emperor’s finest troops stomped by carnivorous teddy bears and one squad of rebel commandos. The empire could have had 1G to 1 odds and still would have lost. It’s just that it was made a little less unbelievable by the rebels having at least a fair amount of ships on screen.
This video bothered me because every time I thought of something he hadn't mentioned, he went ahead and mentioned it a few seconds later. If you've ever played the games, the biggest points of the TIE fighters are small size (hard to hit), good turn speed (hard to hit), no shields, and no hyperdrive. Of those, the non-shields are the most important. If you're flying one, the second hit will kill you, every time. You have to fly in a way that you never get hit. So yeah. I noticed that in the game, you can periodically take a hit to the X-Wing shields and regenerate them, so that your hull takes no damage. In the movies, X-Wings go boom after one or two hits. So, that's a big difference. In the end, though, none of these are the most important differences. The true most important things about TIE fighters are the SOUNDS of the twin ion engines and the rattle of the lasers as they cool down after firing. Do you know what an X-Wing sounds like as it flies by? No, you do not. Do you know the sound of a TIE fighter as it screams past? Oh, hell yes you know!
The screeching sound of a thousand howling ghosts blasting through space, blotting out the stars, twin lasers biting through the blackness of the void. Yes I am a fellow TIE enjoyer.
I've heard the reason for ships having "sound in space" in Star Wars is an in-universe Coconut Effect. The ships sensors pick up where a fighter is in relation to their ship and broadcast the sound over speakers in the cockpit from the appropriate angle and direction. It both provides the very fallible organic pilots a method for situational awareness and is because *no sound* would actually be more disorienting, since people are so used to hearing things happening around them. We, the audience, just happen to be seeing the story from the POV of the characters, who would be hearing the "TIE sound over speakers" themselves.
I love the attention to detail with the fighters, especially the cross section of the guns on X wings. All pilots flying planes with wing-mounted armaments had to deal with this problem, and they had their weapons pre-set before takeoff and can’t change them until they land again. That was a huge advantage to a plane like the P-38 or Me-262 or BF-109: their nose was their firing platform, meaning their fire was centralized and generally had longer range, depending on the arc of fire they used.
Fighters with wing-mounted weaponry compensated by using the Gun Site to direct the Firepower from one wing, if the guns on the other Wing were to hit would be considered an added bonus
@@jamesricker3997 That would make little sense, and would be a waste of weight and firepower. Wing-mounted guns were generally set so their lines of fire would converge directly in front of the aircraft at a given point.
9:49 The TIE Fighter game from 1994 shows that TIE pilots do in fact have a feed from cameras attached to various parts of the ship that allow them to switch from their default directional view and see around their peripherals.
I think the TIE fighter has been flanderized to hell over the years. Star Wars writers went from "these are relatively cheap, streamlined fighters that aren't quite as powerful and versatile as the x-wings" to "these are garbage cannon fodder that get thrown at the enemy with no care and drop like flies".
I think the tie fighter has stronger laser cannons, I could be wrong but the x-wings were realitivly new fighters even if the examples we saw in a New hope were a bit worn down, the x-wings were realitivly new fighters based on the Older ARC-170.
@@sheilaolfieway1885 A lot depends on whether we're talking Legends or Canon. In Legends, those X-Wings were practically brand new, but I have no idea what Canon says.
I thought one of the EU book indicated that star wars fighters used audio cues to indicate information to the pilot. So if a shot goes whizzing past them or a enemy fighter comes up on their tail the ship makes a sound of a blaster bolt, or ship engine come from the same direction to so the pilot will hear the threat behind them(also hand waving noise in space). Unfortunately I can't recall where I read or heard it from so it might just be a fanon thing, but if it is canon it does explain the pilot turning their heads as a instinctive response to a sound.
@@thetomdillengerescapeplan3525 I'm guessing that the system then would be an array of proximity sensors for objects that aren't in the pilot's fov which are linked up to internal directional speakers [similar to actual surround sound, where you can accurately determine direction based entirely off of noise] because people would generally react faster to audio cues than to visual ones.
Whilst I don't know whether this is true or not in Star Wars, I do know that the Starfuries of Babylon 5 had simular features simply to provide more feedback to the pilots of what is going on outside the range of the viewport (or to justify why there was sound inside a space battle). It's simply good design strategy for a space fighter, regardless of this is "in universe" or, say, inside a video game. You want that little bit of audiable feedback of "there's someone behind me even if I can't see them" if you're going to pilot something.
The A6M Zero relied on its agility for protection, at least for most of its life. Armor may help protect the pilot, but the added weight’ll make it more difficult either to get guns on target or to get an opponent’s guns off target. The relatively low horsepower of the Zero’s engine and the design objective of getting as much range out of the plane as possible didn’t help much either.
lack of self sealing fuel tanks led to a lot of dead pilots. most US aces ended their career as trainers, the Japanese aces ended theirs as fireballs. Being shot down, especially over ocean in an F4F was surprisingly survivable, a6m and ki-43, very rarely,
The zero worked till the US said Fuck It and slapped a giant ass engine in a armored bath tub and made it faster, more maneuverable, able to take hits and dish out damage. Something the zero couldn't do.
One point that doesn't come up much is that later testing showed that the Zero was a remarkably rugged aircraft. It had it's weaknesses (the fuel tanks and lack of splinter protection for pilots for example), but the actual airframes were as strong or stronger than most Allied aircraft. The Hellcat had an armoured oil pump, which did more to improve survivability than the backseat plate and bulletproof windscreen did. Sometimes it's not the thing you think of that's going to save you.
@@DanielJoyce Training and knowledge of the capabilities and limitations of Japanese fighters also helped. Attempting to dogfight an A6M, even for a late-war US fighter, was a bad idea.
Training and health also played a big part early on. Japans pilot training was better than pretty much anyone else's, and they had a lot of experience. over China. Meanwhile, allied pilots at the start of the war were less experienced, as well as being more prone to be at ill health due to tropical diseases. And then they encountered these planes for the first time, with little fore-knowledge. As the war went on, the experience edge shifted, while the medical issue advantage went away as well. You can see these things play out in various ways in the war. The Wildcat, for example, is generally seen as inferior to the Zero, but by Midway, when it had improved armor for the pilot and self-sealing fuel tanks, as well as some tactics on how to deal with Zeroes, it did just fine against them. It is, essentially, an equal to the Zero, when used properly, with equal pilot experience. The Spitfire, a plane generally not considered inferior to the Zero, did not do well against it when the Japanese carriers raided Australia. With one exception, a pilot who had previously been serving in Africa and consequently had a lot of experience. Despite being outnumbered badly, the Japanese couldn't take him down. And then you get the Japanese pilot shortage, as their lack of focus on saving pilots and making sure they had an adequate number of well trained replacements led to their pilot quality drastically dropping, and consequently, a much worse loss ratio. And lastly, one of the Japanese aces who survived had a late war encounter with a squadron of Hellcats, generally considered superior to the Zero. But because of his experience, and the Hellcat squadron being one fresh from the States, he survived. Something he attributes to being possible only because of the experience gap.
Based on what we’ve seen the tie fighters, they ironically would’ve been the far superior Battlefield groups if they were just organized better. The empire seemed to kick them out of the bays and just hope for the best, lending most of their attention to whatever was going on with the larger ships. Had tie fighter attack groups actually organized and worked in tandem with one another, they probably would’ve mopped the floor with the smaller groups of X-Wing attackers, even with a slight tech and support disadvantage. The Empire had no shortage of skilled pilots, no shortage of ships, and no shortage of support or logistics to assist them… But they failed in notorious fashion to bother leveraging any of that, instead depending on the superior fire power of carrier groups which was exactly what the X-Wings were designed to counter. Had to put more time into organizing their interceptors the X-Wings probably never would’ve stood a chance. However, this pretty solidly highlights the problem with the empire in the first place; they depended on overwhelming force and didn’t bother to actually strategize very much. Given that, there were always openings for the X-Wings to take advantage of and tie fighter pilots were usually just trying to fill the gap in fire power.
empire viewed them as expendable assets thus never bothered to make sure they were playing nice with each other - on top of that empire enocuraged a cutthroat competiton - and that makes cooperation tricky - when you know the other guy is more likely to have you whacked than to keep your back aka your demise is his promotion xD
i would establish in the Lore that the Empire was rapidly expanding between Yavin and Endor that that one thing that had to go was advanced pilot training. I would further establish that the Imperial pilot training program while good was too short and did not include later education or rotations to training garrisons. Basically if you were an imperial TIE pilot you would be put through a rapid rigorous training program where you would be forced to cram tons of material- then when you graduated you would be dumped into the fleet and would spend your career in some backwater garrison or starship until slots opened up for higher command (which was extremely rare) The Empire did not prioritize further training and did not rotate pilots so most TIE pilots skills would get sloppy from lack of use. 99.9% of your time would be routine patrols with 0.1% OH fuck rebels Further-moor the Imperial Navy would be bias to promote TIE Pilots who demonstrated high levels of Aggressiveness which would lead to high losses in combat since many TIE Pilots may just be a little suicidal from the boredom of Garrison duty. Risking death to gain promotion to someplace else would be worth it.
Thank you for your service to the fan-base, Eck. This vid is a good reality check. I haven't read the books lately, but I was always under the impression that the rebel pilots knew very well they could die in any moment of any engagement. They relied on their shields to survive mistakes and laughed about the TIE's lack of shields, but they were scared of those Imperial pilots underneath. This was most evident - at least to me - when the best of the best faced each other. The X-wings were impressive machines and Rebel Aces could make them dance, but the Imperial Aces in their TIE interceptors were their nemeses in every way even without shields.
Its one of those things. Initially, the TIE was presented as an equal match for the hero ships. But eventually became memed into a garbage flying deathtrap. Much like the storm trooper armor and capability. I don't recall the source, but the armor is supposed to turn what would be a fatal blaster shot into simply a disabling one. And, of course, the accuracy lauded by old Ben becomes "can't hit a tin-can from three feet away," in modern representations.
Nah the tie fighter stinks. It's all about those Interceptors baby. And I don't mean the ones we see in Squadrons shooting rockets. Gimme six lasers, some powerful engines, throw a red stripe down the solar panel and now you've got something. 181st shout out
If 1970's cinematic tech was on par, I would have loved to see more shielding effects in the original trilogy, even the original designs used, like the bubble turret on the Y-wing.
In the old X-Wing games, you could set convergence to a certain distance, but I always imagined that if you lock on a target, the ship's targeting computer would automatically set convergence for you. Actually, in a cockpit view scene from Wedge's point of view during the Battle of Endor, you can see that he hits a TIE Interceptor that isn't directly in front of him but off center, so this shows that X-wing cannons are able to track a target to a certain degree (that was also a thing in the first Rogue Squadron game). I would guess that setting convergence manually helps if the enemy is blocking your targeting computer.
The Alphabet squadron book had a really good description of a tie fighter as being like a Knife, in the hands of an unskilled pilot it is basically useless, but in the hands of a truly skilled pilot they are deadly.
@@thetomdillengerescapeplan3525 that's a bad analogy. Every other ship is a melee weapon. The Tie is cheap, small, quick and easy to make. The xwing is a sword, expensive, bigger but packs a decent punch but is harder to master
@@JJJBunney001 But that isn't the case. Luke had never been inside of an Xwing or any experience with piloting a ship. His T16 had a similiar cockpit but wouldn't handle the same especially in space. Luke was able to match some of the Empire's best pilots who were selected to serve on the Death Star in his very first time piloting any ship in space. It sounds silly to pretend the Xwing wouldn't be a gun if the Tie fighter was a knife.
If the Empire is going to rely on fighters that work best with a highly skilled confident pilot, then they are idiots not to at least equip their fighters with shields. A little extra survivability could do wonders for pilots' morale.
The Expanded Universe material insisted that TIEs sucked because they were so fragile. Yet the canon movies show “shielded” fighters still succumbing to single hits, with luck occasionally allowing a fighter to survive a glancing blow but with considerable damage. A low cost, highly maneuverable fighter makes sense in this context.
In the videogame Tie Fighter and subsequent games in the X-Wing vs Tie Fighter series you could experience for yourself that Tie Fighters could be deadly weapons. They're fast, nimble, and pack ample firepower for taking down enemy star fighters.
@@michaelmorris1741 that's not cannon, every imperial soldier/ pilot who missed either had orders to let them escape, or were not shooting to kill. ep 4 tarkin let them go on vaders hunch/ gamble, and tantive IV they were not killing anyone until one of their own was shot & killed (they then proceeded to wipe the floor with the enemy) stormtroopers having bad aim is a misconception that has been exaggerated & inflated over the years.
I think it’s cool how Squadrons dealt with most of the Empire not having shields. In exchange for being a tank like the Rebels you could fly around really fast, put all of your power into your lasers, and then light somebody up! Basically doing a drive by is how you play the Empire in Squadrons.
I always assumed deflector shields were exactly that: Shields meant to deflect shots away from the ship. They “angled” the shields towards probable incoming fire, but it didn’t stop a direct hit from an unexpected vector. TIE fighters usually fired multiple bursts at their targets even after a lock on, which to me seemed like they were adjusting for the shields as they went. It just seemed more sensible to me since usually the shots seemed fatal regardless of class, y wings, x wings, and a wings all going down in a few direct hits. As far as TIE design, they seemed wasteful more than anything. Pilots are a valuable resource and losing a few good pilots can destroy a squadron’s cohesion and effectiveness. They had the resources to make better fighters, but their doctrine squandered those for more Destroyers.
Could have just used drones if they wanted cheap fighters based from a carrier, would have been lighter and could fit more weapons (Not droids.) I don't see a lot of electronic warfare being used in canon so they would have performed adequately.
The main advantage was probably the cost. If you need to outfit an galaxy spanning army in a few years than you take the most economic solution first and upgrade the army after a couple of years when everything settles a bit down
shields deflecting hits is how my headcanon justifies seeing shields in New Hope somehow stop turbolaser fire (there are several scenes where it looks like x-wings were hit by somtething). Otherwise there would be little sense in "shields on double front" sentences, since a heavy turbolaser SHOULD destroy a single starfighter with one shot no matter how powerful it's shields are.
@@Delvien I think it would have been really cool if the First Order's main TIEs were droids rather than manned, replacing the cockpit glass with red photoreceptors. They could have kept their narrative role as swarming cannon fodder, but it would show an evolution beyond the Empire's weak tactics.
@@michaelramon2411 Agreed, the biggest issue for the empire is hanger space. Being able to store and launch fighters from storage racks would make ISDs with the most limited hanger space capable of moving vast quantities of strike craft. On top of that they can launch them faster then needing to wait for a pilot. Recovery is slower but since they are droids they can just be left behind to pick up later or just abandoned. The main faction in my own headworld does similarly, though on smaller carriers the drones are carried externally.
Thank you Eck, this video is long overdue. I'm sick and tired of seeing tie fighters in media be portrayed as a background noise, especially in mandalorian and rebels. As far as maneuverability goes we have one or more "I can't shake him off" from rebel pilots, suggesting ties can't be evaded in dogfight. One thing you didn't mention about tie strengths- solar panels mean tie fighter can fly longer and doesn't need fuel (ok, it only needs a bit for it's weapon's reactor). X-wing cannons shoot slower since I believe they were design to push the limits of a standard blaster cannon when it comes to power output, that's why they need flashback suppressors. I'd say they are close to medium blaster cannons (which we saw in ARC-170) when it comes to power without sacrificing rate of fire too much. While tie has a tendency to shoot in short but rapid series of shots.
A quote from "The Essential Guide to Warfare" sums up the TIE fighter pretty well; "the TIE was an extension of the minimalist philosophy behind the Eta-2: a fast, nimble fighter for a daring, skilled pilot. Unfortunately, very few TIE pilots were equals of Jedi."
Ironically TIE fighters probably would have been unholy terrors in the hands of a Jedi or a Rebel pilot. The Empire were fools not to equip their TIEs with shields and other pilot-survivability mechanisms.
I was searching the comment section to see if anyone brings this up (and the source of the info), but yeah, I could also swear that it was said (it was the Essential Guide to Warfare that said this, lol) that the TIE Fighter was inspired by the Eta-2 and originally meant to be piloted by (Dark Side) Force sensitive pilots and thus their reflexes would be so great that the TIE Fighter, like the Eta-2, didn't need shields for defense; just great speed and maneuverability for dodging and heavier laser cannons for offense is all that would be needed. Cost cutting and such was just a bonus.
In Ep4 there was mention of "set shields to double front", and I think to the rear at one point when TIEs were coming from behind, so they were clearly using them. However, shields may have been at a lower setting at times to increase speed, particularly in the trench run. Or previously worn down and not yet recharged. I always hated shooting something with a TIE fighter only to have debris take me out. At 5:24 X-Wing handles it no problem.
The Thatch Weave was used to high effect against the Zero, and you see it used in the movies every time there was a TIE fighter coming in to kill an X-Wing, only to be saved by a an X-Wing killing the TIE, either from behind or by a head on pass. It was Teamwork! Also, am I wrong but was there an X Wing pilot that survived Both the Battle of Sacarif and the Attack on the X Wing? Kinda Sounded like a Hick over the radio? I want to know more about that pilot.
TIEs are absolutely incredible fighters given just how vast the Empire was. Creating a fighter that is simple to build and cheap so that it can be mass-produced for an entire navy while also being extremely reliable in terms of its engine quality, speed, and armament strength is no small feat.
In a Star Wars news letter I still have, the X-wing and Y-wing are described as outdated fighters that were stripped down to bare essentials and hot-rodded so they stood a chance against the much more advanced Imperial TIE fighters. The biggest telling factor of this was that the TIE had twin ion engines where as the X and Y wings were using rocket engines. Yes, you read that right. Rocket engines. It was the videos games (X-Wing and TIE Fighter) that drastically altered this source material and made the X and Y wings suddenly superior fighter craft. The idea that the Y-wing is some sort of heavy flying tank was never part of the original films as they get shredded in a hit or two just like any other non-hero craft, and the X-wing was basically built up to be superior in every way since it was the ship our hero flew in the saga. The intention in the films was, as described in this video, to emulate the experience of WW2 allied fighters like the P-40 Warhawk or the P-26 Peashooter fighting against the Japanese Zero in the early years of the pacific war. The Empire's equipment was superior to the Rebels in every category, what they couldn't buy, however, was the tenacity and grit of the pilots who fought for the Rebellion.
Yeah, I could never get the whole "heavily armored" bit when it came to describing the Y-Wing, especially when later material even admitted that the Y-Wing was heavily stripped down of pretty much all non-essential parts that couldn't be replaced due to its age. I can definitely see it on the original Clone Wars version, but the Galactic Civil War version? No way. Heavy *shielding* I can still see, but not armor.
@@HalfDemonInuyasha I'd argue there's no contradiction. "Vanilla" Y-Wings would be heavily armoured, but the ones we see have been being operated by an organisation pressed for materials and facing logistical issues for quite a while, and have long since had that armour destroyed or removed. No reason to assume the Y-Wings weren't, "out of the box" armoured. In fact, some likely still are. Just not most of them, anymore.
While this does make a lot of sense, I'd like to point out that George Lucas himself ends up contradicting this with the prequel trilogy. The Battle of Coruscant and the events of Revenge of the Sith take place roughly 19 years before the Battle of Yavin and the events of a New Hope. At that point, we see no indication that the X-Wing even exists, as well as obviously the Tie's. Instead, we have the ARC-170, the Eta-2 Actis Interceptor, and the V-wing, the latter two of which which seems to be the Republic's first steps towards things like the Tie fighter. Other series, like Clone Wars, obviously shows that at least some variant of the Y-Wing is in service with the Republic clone armies, so it is indeed an outdated model by the time of the Galactic Civil war. However, the X-wing would not necessarily be an outdated starfighter if it doesn't even exist yet, meaning it'd likely be relatively modern, like the Tie Fighter. now yes, I know somebody will likely go 'well that's just because everyone is so used to the canon that got put out by all the extra media so Lucas just went with it'. And yes, that would be a fair point. except George Lucas easily could have simply done whatever it is he wanted to do with the prequel trilogy. He could have ignored what all the games and books had established and showed the earliest prototypes of the X-Wing being used in the Clone Wars. He didn't. Instead, we have the Arc-170. Which sort of does look like an X-Wing, but isn't. Ultimately, I look at the X-Wing as being more like the Wildcat (developed in 1940), or maybe even getting up there into the F6F Hellcat or the F4U Corsair range. The Y-Wing and the Z-95 Headhunters certainly fit the role of outdated ships used against technologically more modern and superior fighters, but I think the X-wing, even in George Lucas' mind, ended up representing the more modern fighters that, while not necessarily able to beat the Tie (or Zero, using the analogy) in their own game, could beat them in other ways thanks to developmental advantages they have over the Tie as well as more experienced pilots in the long run.
What? The X-Wings were always developed shortly before the battle of Yavin. It's only been in the Disney continuity that it was developed long before. The original SW notes had the X-Wing being a new fighter to replace the Y-Wing, also a fighter at that time.
Even in the rogue squadron books, the elite pilots suffered losses, and not so good squadrons like Wraith Squadron suffered causalities most engagments.
from the humble Tie-Fighter, to the "ouch time" Tie-Defender and beyond, they get the job done and look good doing it. and plus, tearing the New Republic's Lusankya apart, hardpoint by hardpoint, with fighter/bomber craft is just so... satisfying.
Oddly enough, the only warship (not counting plot-armored freighters like Ghost and Millenium Falcon) I can think of to get much out of shields on-screen is the StarFortress bomber from The Last Jedi. One of them actually tanks at least 5-6 TIE laser hits, which is way more than the X-wing, Y-wing or ARC-170 can say for themselves. On-screen Y-wings give the impression of being extremely fragile (though that's probably in part because the Malevolence arc was the only time they ever had someone of narrative importance in the cockpit, so they are almost always narrative cannon fodder).
The TIE’s wings I think are the cause for the constant crashing in situations like the inside the Death Star chase in ROTJ. It’s a damn unique design with that iconic scream of it ion engines along with the chatter of its blasters. I’ve always seen the thing as a zero in space where the X-wing was more of a P51 Mustang or P47 Thunderbolt. It’s really hard to trash any star fighter because just like planes in real life they all have strengths and weaknesses and are designed around a specific roll or doctrine. At least that’s how I look at things.
1st why do some ships look weird like ties and y wings with openings or gaps of da y wings engines or how tie wings are and look like a big 🎯 me sigh for x wings. And would love to resee ww2 with star wars technology and how Dat would end differently there in reality if we replaced zeros and 🇺🇲 🛩 with x wings and ties or at least add them to battle of midway along with our 🇯🇵⚔️🇺🇲 and see wha zero and ties vs x wings and wild cats or whatever 🇺🇲 used. Or maybe pearl harbor but it iz replaced with ties instead of 0s. And you know wha how come we really can't actually build a working ties or x wings already?? We have jets now how iz there not x wings or ties yet especially da cool looking ties and not da huge solar panel ones. Aren't there different types of ties??
So glad to hear someone saying this, the source books always seemed to be wildly inaccurate compared to what we see on screen. The famed proton torpedoes that are so powerful in the X-Wing book series are never seen used to shoot down fighters in on screen material. I also agree that I always thought it lessened the achievements of the rebels that they supposedly were fighting with massively superior equipment.
The TIE is a genius concept with design flaws. You have to somehow protect all your assets from a group of Rebel fighters that have an extreme amount of leeway in what target they attack and when. If you rely on a small but advanced set of fighters then you have to station them somewhere central since dividing them just makes it easy to overwhelm and pick off. The time it takes for a small advanced set of fighters to get from their location to the attacked site can also be too high letting the Rebels hit it and escape. The solution? Station dozens of much cheaper fighters at each location. This gives you the guarantee that the Rebels can be engaged before they escape. It also means its easier to frustrate the attack and even stall for time so reinforcements can arrive. Keep in mind that the Rebels are chronically short on pilots and fighters so risking them should not be done lightly, and just the deployment of a large amount of TIE's can force them to retreat except in cases of an extremely vital target (say Scarif or the Death Star). TIE's arent designed to go toe-to-toe with the X-wing. They were designed to protect an area way too large for specialized troops and still pose enough of a threat to more expensive craft. Which they do. Its like saying "well with an infantry fighting vehicle these infantry units would have more firepower, more weapon choice, more defense, less weight to carry per person and more mobility, so why wouldnt you give it to all infantry?" Because if the main duty is guard duty across a massive area with lots of things that can get hit at any time, you want guards at each point rather than a mobile group that will likely get too late to the attacked site.
Just like how the Storntroopers were never meant as front-line combat troops but as terror tactics suppresion and occupying forces, i.e. Garrison troops. The Sith just used them more than the Army since they trusted the Indoctrinated Goons Stormtroopers more than the Regular People Army.
I've wondered about the TIE visibility. In Star Trek Deep Space Nine, they capture a vessel that has no windows. The commander of the ship wears a kind of visor that translates sensor data to visuals, effectively making the commander able to see through the bulkheads. TIEs could be using that kind of technology. Also, it's funny how games can give you a sense of the strengths and weaknesses of tactics. I've played X-Wing, and also Chuck Yeager's Air Combat. In the latter, a MIG-15 is better at a close, tight turning dogfight than a F-86. But the F-86 can gain some distance on the MIG, and turn back around to engage. Not sure how historically accurate it was, but definitely not the same aircraft.
In Legends, concussion missiles were really expensive to replace (per missile), but their launcher cost nearly nothing, while proton torpedoes were useful if you expected to fire your warheads a great deal, they are smaller and much cheaper to replace, but because their launcher is an advanced/complex machine in and of itself, it made them expensive to use. In the movies it wasn't terribly clear if there was much difference between the two practically speaking, we see concussion missiles used vs various targets, and not be significantly worse than a proton torpedo. It also was kinda ignored when they made the A-Wing hold a ton of Concussion Missiles in X-Wing, because they were (in game at least) really good vs enemy fighters, so the A-Wing was the specialist dog fighter of the Rebellion, the Y-Wing was the 'bomber' (if very mini), while the X-Wing could do either role, and was excellent at hit and fade missions due to it's relatively high speed (sublight and light), as well as it's impressive load out of 4 laser cannons and the 2 proton torpedo launchers. No explanation as to how they managed to fit the huge loadout of missiles on the A-Wing, but at least it's only got 2 lasers, why is the X-Wing stuck with only 6 of smaller warheads on a WAY bigger ship? Just weird is all. IIRC you can see what I mean in the old Guide books, Complete Guide to Vehicles and Vessels iirc, the schematics for concussion missiles usually show big honking missiles, proton torpedoes are small cones. Anyways, this was the explanation why most pirate/smuggler/underworld ships used concussion missiles, the up front cost wasn't as high and ideally you weren't going to use them much, they were there for emergencies and to scare people. In contrast the Rebellion preferred proton torpedoes as they were cheap to replace and they went through a fair number. They could also cripple a capital ship with them, even destroy it potentially, which in some sources concussion missiles weren't as good at. In Star Wars CCG we had Intruder Missiles, which were specially made munitions that could cause shield generators (iirc) to blow up, neutralizing or destroying a capital ship (depending on how it's shields were placed/how big they were), have you come across those elsewhere, Legends or Canon? Edit: In Rogue One, I'm pretty sure there was WILDLY more TIEs in the air than there was Rebel fighters, especially in atmosphere where the X-Wings were at a disadvantage vs those slanted TIEs that land on the planet IIRC. By the end, the Rebels had cleared out a heck of a lot of TIEs, but they had lost quite a few ships.
No atmosphere in the cockpit avoids explosive decompression in case the cockpit is breached. When bailing out, no explosive decompression, all your life support goes with you. In the film's no rebel pilot is in a space suit. Even a tiny puncture in the cockpit will kill the pilot and good luck bailing out. I believe that the imperial pilots could survive combat better. In addition each bailed imperial pilot could be easily rescued because they control the battlefield after combat. All rebel pilots become prisoners. TIE pilots also have an order of magnitude better pilots due to better personal and training.
But most of them never see combat, to get any experiance. It's just parades, customs patrols and shooting ducks with massive superiority, if some insugants are found on holiday.
The suits the rebel pilots wore have life support systems - instead of fully enclosing the pilot with an integrated helmet, they relied on the magnetic containment to keep atmosphere in for long enough to get rescued. That is what the electronics they are wearing are for.
When it comes to rate of fire I think something that should be considered is how long it's sustained for, and damage/shot(something that would be more important for X-wings because of often targeting heavier targets)
THANK YOU! I feel sometimes like a TIE apologetic when discussing with people on the internet. *The onscreen performance of TIEs is generally very impressive*. It's the EU that somehow decided they suck. It's also a similar story with Storm Troopers in the OT, though that's another topic. Either way, thank you for taking the time to make this video.
If you were to give me an option between an X-wing and a Tie fighter for a dogfight against the other option I would pick the TIE because it's just so nimble, fast and small framed compared to the X-wing
I actually really like flying the TIE in XvT. They're really nimble and accelerate well, but the biggest plus is having the cannons front-and-center, like you said.
The evidence from the movies makes a single Star Destroyer look like a whole carrier strike group on its own. The EU decided that it was built to engage capital ships and capital ships only.
Thank you, this was always something that bothered me. A lot of people say that the TIE fighter was an awful vehicle but the first Death Star battle completely disproves this. The members of Black Squadron manage to kill something in the ballpark of 20 Rebel ships (assuming that every Rebel starship outside of Luke's and Wedge's was destroyed). The TIE pilots manage this even with their only 6 to 9 members (depending on whether you count Vader and his escorts). Even just counting on screen kills, the TIEs manage to take down more fighters than the X/Y Wings while completely outnumbered, fighting the best pilots the Rebels could field.
What you said about American fighters versus Japanese Zeros is true during the outset of WWII, but the new American designs towards the middle and end of WWII outclassed the Zeros in every way possible.
@@Imdrunkontea Yes but the Y wings would have been the early ship the Ties would have been good against. Not the X Wings. The Xwings were the equivalent of the new US planes outclassing the Zero in this analogy.
@@Imdrunkontea No, that isn’t the point. If it were, then the thesis of the video would be how the X-wing was improved to overcome the Tie’s strengths. That is the problem when you overgeneralize an analogy. One of the reasons the Japanese turned to kamikaze attacks near the end of WWII was because their fighters were no longer able to go toe-to-toe with the newer American fighters. In the Star Wars movies, the original ones at least, Ties and X-wings, while each having their particular strengths and weaknesses, are generally on par with each other. In contrast, in the sequels where newer designs in X-wings appear, they tend to mop the floor with traditional Tie designs. The more accurate conclusion to draw is if two fighting vehicles are relatively equal, and if one is improved where the other remains the same, then over time one design will start showing decided superiority over the other.
And pilots as well. As American tech pulled forward the experienced pilots who were able to survive multiple hits due to the armor on the wildcats had experience and capability on their side towards the end of the war
Judging by the clips from the movies in the video above, the X-Wing cannons are each more powerful than the individual ones of the TIE. I saw shots where an X-Wing explosively kills a TIE in one to two shots, yet in other shots a TIE is having to hit an X-Wing two to three times with both cannons just to damage it enough to cause a crash. Shields can explain some of the difference effectiveness of the cannons, yet not all. The only other thing I'd like to mention is that TIEs have windows in their top hatch, which might explain why the TIE pilot looked up when the Falcon arrived during the Trench Run.
What seems to be the case with X-wings surviving being hit in movies is that they were hit in an engine (With shields once again doing nothing), whereas TIE fighter seems to be more densily packed, so if you manage to land a hit on it, it's probably going down. However a hit in X-Wing's main body will equally turn the X-wing into a fireball.
That's what I noticed too. The X-Wings seems to survive a glancing blow against any other part of the body except a direct hit to the rear which seems to be where they get hit a lot.
The X-Wing is an F-15E Strike Eagle. Multi role-superiority, and expensive to maintain. The TIE tighter is a MiG-21. A put stripped down, inexpensive, interceptor with minimal maintenance requirements. Good video.
I think the centrally-aligned guns are the biggest boon. I remember multiple instances where, in X-Wing, a TIE would get so close to me that I had to slow down or break off, because my blasters just fired around them...
Laser cannons in Star Wars have a small amount of ability to move, all fighters have their fire converging at a certain adjustable distance, including the x-wing
@@evanhenderson1760 XWA in theory had adjustable in flight convergance and yet I never used it as there are other priorities under fire than tuning some dial like Vader in ANH. :D
The Tie Fighter was always meant to be a cost effective glass cannon . I used the same logic on a game called pacific theater of operations 4 game. A naval game where you can rebuild any ship and flyer from world war 2 , and it worked really well. Even though individually my bombers where paper thin , I could manufacture them by the hundreds cheap and they did so much damage that I ended up having less bombers destroyed because they could overwhelm a base quickly with damage.
Nailed it! X wing has plot armor. The X winger should be more of a glass cannon with its hyper drive. Also the zero had a fuel bladder that was very susceptible to casing a fire if hit. I think a neat concept would be One tie leader humans and two or more drone ties slaved to the leader
The real headscratcher in universe is why did the Empire switch to the TIE when they were already using the Z-95, which is almost as fast and cheap, but also brings a missile launcher. Z-95s are also easier to stack, the wings of the TIE fighter are gigantic meaning you can fit two Z-95s for every TIE. This obviously changes when the Interceptor model is introduced but I don't think the Ln was an 'upgrade' to what they already had.
@@AnchorJG that is a dumb argument to use. the reason for the Z-95 was retired should be that it was obsolete. This is the normal reason fighters get retired. one of the dumbest things in some Starwars fiction is the idea that older fighters are better than newer ones.
Are you sure that Z-95s are easier to store? Sure, they're flatter, but they're also wider and longer. Beyond that, if I had to explain why they didn't stick with the Z-95, I'd say that almost wasn't good enough. If each fighter was slightly more expensive to make, each pilot took a bit longer to get through academy due to the extra complexity of wing-mounted blaster cannons and missile launchers, and you have to keep replacing the missiles they fire, you could end up with, let's say a 5% increase in cost, and at the scale the Empire deals with, that's a lot of credits. And that's not taking into account the fact that Z-95s are slower, less maneuverable and probably have less effective blaster cannons, so unless the missile launcher can make up for those disadvantages (or if the missile launcher was removed because anything requiring more firepower than blaster cannons can be done by the Star Destroyed that deployed them), your attrition rates will be higher and you might end up needing more of them to patrol the same empire, which would again up the cost.
@@samueldimmock694 regarding the Imperial Navy they used tons of different fighters in the clone wars i don't get why anyone would think the Z-95 was the dominant fighter for the Republic. Seems like the V-wing, ARC-170, Y-wings and V-19s were more common. Personally, my head cannon is that the Republic used TONs if different fighter models (based on its rapid arming process it needed to get as many fighters as quickly as possible) as a result they had many types in service which was a nightmare to maintain and qualify pilots on. When the Clone Wars Ended TIE series dominated because they were so cheap to maintain and having standardized systems and controls made training a breeze compared to the late Republic military. This is also how the rebellion gots its hands on tons of Y-Wings since the Republic/Empire dispossessed its vast stockpile of V-wings, V-19s, Y-wings, Z-95s. Of these only the Y-wings had Hyperdrives as standard and that is why the Rebellion used them so heavily. ARC-170s stayed in service longer with the Empire and as they were withdrawn from service, they were scrapped to prevent them from falling into the hands of the Rebellion.
Not sure where you got the idea that the Z-95 is equal in speed and maneuvering capabilities to the Tie Fighter. I think the X-Wing vs Tie Fighter series probably had the most logical interpretation of the Z-95 where it really feels like an outdated predecessor to the X-Wing. It has about half the firepower, weaker shields, and isn't as fast as the X-Wing, probably due to an outdated power plant that wouldn't be capable of powering stronger shields and quad lasers all at once.
A Starwars Legends Ace Combat game would be so cool. Arcade like controls, loads of targets, loads of replayability, and dozens of Fighters from across Legends
The TIE fighter was a fighter and not a multi role craft like the x-wing. It's like comparing the Spitfire to the Mosquito in WW2, who shot down the most fighters? The Spitfire, because that was what it was designed for. Close range defence of Britain's coast. However the Mosquito was a long range fighter escort that was then equipped for bombing. The Spitfire has the better reputation, but I love the Mosquito.
Imperial pilots had very intense training yet most weren't expected to survive their first tour because of the low quality of their equipment. It was considered quite an accomplishment to survive your one mandatory Tie tour of duty. They were not good.
Seriously if I remenber correctly canon way way back in the 80s was that the TIE fighter was extremely formidable, had excellent equipment, but no shields. Somehow that has morphed over the intervening years into it was a shitty fighter. Nope, it was highly manueverable, well armed, and had excellent computers. just no shields.
@@messagedeleted1922 Not according to West End Games which is where most of the lore comes from. What are you referencing? Remember how useless they were in the Decipher card game? Was never fun going up against the Rebel pilots
Tie pilots had suits for a reason. Ship destroyed, pilot survives and is picked up by the massive fleet they are attached to. Rebel ships had no such chance of ship destruction survival... one and done.
That's from EU material - EckhartsLadder's point in that the movies, Ties were portrayed very differently, and are very much peers of the X-wing, rather than cannon fodder.
I always appreciate people pointing out the strengths of the TIE series. The TIE was made for a specific role and doctrine, and it does the job well. Something I thought of the other day regarding cockpit pressurization. A cockpit full of atmosphere would transfer a lot more shock from external impacts to the pilot, and any puncture of the cockpit armour or canopy would result in explosive decompression. A non-pressurized cockpit would protect the pilot somewhat from both of those dangers. It might not be a huge advantage, but it would be one.
I didn't see this brought up, but in ANH, particularly the trench run.. the TIEs' laser cannons seem capable of moving where the blasts are going.. on screen that shows that the targeting lock computer also helps aim the cannons without needing to aim the ship itself. Unlike the X-Wings whose cannons doesn't seem to be capable.of the same thing.
The problem is, like Zero, Tie fighters are made for elites. They sacrifice durability for speed and firepower, leaving little room for errors, which is really unfriendly for most of the not so impressive imperial pilots.
Yeah, the TIE Fighter holding its own against rebels fighters mainly because of the Empire having far better pilot training programs, but it is still a dangerous fighter in the same sense of the real world Japanese A6M Zero
I would say that most of the on-screen TIEs are piloted by among the better pilots available IMO. They are the TIEs belonging to things like Death Squadron, or the vessels chosen for the Emperor's trap.
@@aaronsanborn4291 Remember that those aircraft came later. The initial aircraft that dealt with the Zero were shot down in large numbers. By the time those made it over the Japanese had the Ki-84 which once again was superior to those aircraft mentioned. This along with the Ki-61 and Ki-100. Fortunately for the US, our campaigns to cut off fuel and made it so that there was not enough to both train and execute longer range missions.
2:49 Now I’m throughly drawn in. The analogy of WWII fighters like the P-31 Mustang with its off set 6x .50 cal VS the German Alignment of their Cannon has my Subscribing! Top Notch!
I think it would make sense for the imperial pilot helmet to be like a vr headseat that allows for the pilot to view through the walls and wings of the fighter.
@@bennettbush3906 Like eck said it's already common practice in 5th generation fighter jets so there would be no reason for it to be unrealistic for the empire
Logically, you would think shields would have to have some noticeable effect or else these militaries would not invest and use them. It would be a waste.
What? No it wouldn’t anything that helps, even if it’s only a slight amount that’s would make it 100% worth it. For example if you were a solider in WW2 your knew damn well your steel helmet was most likely not gonna stop most bullets, and there’s a good chance it won’t even stop most shrapnel (especially if you’re British💀). But you’re still gonna put it on anyways right?
It seems to be the difference between a stray laser bolt killing a fighter or a burst. In practice, it does seem to increase survivability, but only marginally.
Fire rate and convergence aside. X-wing cannons are meant to pack a punch. It's essentially a cannon made for larger ships like Frigs and Corvettes mounted on a starfighter. This is why X-wings can also do an anti capital ship role.
The main issue with TIEs, in my opinion, is that they're shown to be incapable of intercepting freighters effectively. TIEs have been shown intercepting the Millenium Falcon in the movies and the Ghost in the TV show- and both ships survived with minimal to no damage from TIE fire, while the TIEs lost numerous fighters
I wonder if the Interceptors would have done better. Tbh TIE Fighters are designed as anti-starfighter primarily. Medium sized ships like the Gozanti carriers and Lancer carriers are more useful for taking down freighters.
@@jrggrop I'm not sure. Some snubfighters like the Missile Boat, B-Wing, or even A-Wing and X-wing can use proton torpedoes to cripple freighters or even medium size ships if hit in the right areas. TIE series would probably need a TIE Bomber, Advanced, or Defender for such warhead capability. (Also the Bomber is not that good either.)
@@johnquach8821 TIE Fighters would be escorting Bombers or Assault Gunboats when attacking a larger target like an illegally armed and shielded ‘freighter’. It was a bit silly that the Falcon was chased by only 4 fighters after escaping Hoth while ISDs were colliding with each other like they were in a three stooges film. At least the Bombers were used to bombard possible hiding places in the asteroid field.
In my head canon I’ve usually placed the weaknesses you see on the empire being cheap and uncaring about training. With a good pilot the tie fighter is terrifying. It’s main weakness is with taking a hit.
Think you are giving a little to much credit to the WWII Zero. It was a great fighter certainly, but also very limited in many ways. What made the Zero so lethal though was that it had very well trained and experienced pilots who could push the envelope on what the fighter could do. And it didn't hurt that the US pilots were much less experienced. But once Japan lost it's elite pilots and the US pilots got better, the Zero was not nearly the threat it had been in the early part of the war. Things got worse when the Hellcat showed up as it could outperform the Zero in many respects. sm
For what it's worth, I think the basic TIEs generally had a good showing in the Starfighter miniatures game. At least in smaller engagements, outnumbering your enemy by approx. 2:1 made a really big difference. It also did well to establish that while TIEs were not expendable, losing one or two in an engagement was definitely not going to cost you the game, whereas losing an X-wing or other expensive starfighter absolutely could lead to a death spiral.
I head canon that the switch to Tie Fighters by the empire over the older republic fighters was also driven by experiences from the end of the Clone Wars. Expensive clone pilots in expensive high quality fighters were simply being countered if not demolished by cheaply made droid fighters utilizing buzzdroid missiles. The cost-effectiveness ratio towards the end of the war was MASSIVELY in the confederacy's favour to the point that much of the republic fleet was facing issues even getting enough pilots and fighters to even fill their venators and victories. So things had to change as battlecarriers like the venator aren't too helpful if at best they are using half a compliment of fighters, and those fighters are always taking heavy losses from one tenth the cost in droids. So high quality starfighters, at the time and compounded by other issues like clones and technology, were simply being beaten by cheaper cost effective fighters. So the Empire switched to cheaper more cost effective fighters, pilots, and more effective fleets of imperials that relied more on their turbolasers then their compliment craft. All to beat a foe that they had already beaten in the last war..... A classic!
Umm, ACKCHYUALLY the Zero wasn’t especially flimsy compared to the contemporary P40 and Wildcat, and the best allied tactic was really boom-and-zoom diving ambushes. They avoided dogfights altogether, and most of the aces operated that way. (Am need🤓🤪🙃
while it is correct that in terms of just pure build and materials, the A6M was not significantly less durable than its contemporaries, its biggest weakness was its lack of self-sealing fuel tanks to save weight and thus improve speed and maneuverability. this meant that while on paper, a zero could match a wildcat in terms of durability, in practice any hit to its fuel tanks would almost certainly lead to an uncontrollable fireball and the complete loss of the aircraft and pilot
@@hbstudios Also cockpit armor. Not something the Zero had, because it would add weight that would shorten their range. And the Zero was all about range and maneuverability. The emphasis on range and maneuverability makes it kinda hilarious when the Zero got the A6M3 Model 32 that lost some turn rate and range in exchange for a bit more speed and roll rate... just in time to need to fly down the length of the Solomons on a daily basis where the decreased range going from the A6M2 Model 21 to the A6M3 Model 32 was very noticeable.
Growing up I always thought TIEs were pretty good just going off the movies because shields only seem to matter if the plot needs it. "Oh x-wings have shields" but they seem to be shot down just as easily as TIEs on screen. And this goes double for Y-Wings and ARC-170s in the movies because for all their supposed strong shields and armor they get blown up by TIEs and Tri Fighters/Vulture Droids really freaking easy.
The movies showed the ties as being less maneuverable than cargo ships like the YT-1300. I don't care how much you soup up a ship like that's engines it shouldn't have handled better in the Astroid belt than the Tie Fighters
have you watched the first Star wars movie idiot? it is clearly shown the tie fighter is faster more manoverable than x wings and the empire didnt deploy swarms of fighters but simply an equal amount and they reduce the rebel force to 3 ships from 30 attacking
I think in the long run, the Empire should've employed a standard fighter with shields and more armor. Not every Imperial was an extremely talented pilot, and would've benefitted more from an easier to handle fighter. If the Empire had a 100% gurantee that every pilot would be a dogfighting champion the TIE Fighter/Interceptor would've been the most feared and respected ever.
Biggest issue with TIE was visibility, bulky life support helmet with tiny view ports plus stupid front only hexagonal window with a bunch of useless bars through it for some reason make it really hard to see.
I know this video focuses on what we see in the movies but as a guy who played a whole lot of Rogue Squadron back in the days of the N64 and GameCube I think I have something valuable to add here. The TIE fighter is a much easier target to hit because of its large cross section during a turn. Combine that with a lack of shields and it's a one hit kill. Thinking back I have taken many many TIE fighters and Interceptors down during a turn because there's just more surface area to land laser blasts.
In the Rogue Squadron book series, they openly admit the Tie Fighter was faster, more maneuverable, and more numerous than the X-Wing. The only thing that gave the X-Wing an advantage was it's shields, and superior pilots.
And we saw on film the best of the best of the Rebels; those who survived so long since the Empire founding, as well as force users. Joe Tie Pilot did quite well overall.
@@pauldunecat We saw on film the best of the best of the TIE pilots as well. We saw the elite Death Squadron during the last two movies and we saw Black Squadron in A New Hope. Only the cream of the crop served with either. The best of the best that the universe had in terms of TIE pilots
Great video. FYI, if you go back and play Tie-Fighter you can cycle through viewports in the Tie cockpit. I think there were glass panels above and behind the pilot.
Note: The WW2 fighters with the guns widely spaced [and the convergence issue] were not the only fighter aircraft. The P38, P61, and DeHavilland Mosquito are examples of aircraft that didn't have to worry about convergence because the guns were all clustered around the centerline of the aircraft, like TIE/ln fighters
6:25 I would heavily disagree with that statement, sure there were casualties but USA didn't really use the way of attrition to counter zeros like you say, sure USA did have the numbers advantage but unlike IJA/IJN USA actually cared fro their soldiers lives so they focused more in individual pilot protection with armor plates in the strategic locations of their planes to reduce the chance pilot is killed out right when being shot while also researching a reasonable answer to zeros and finding out their respective weaknesses, further more USA pilots had a set term in their service live through that and you got to go home and train the new pilots and pass vital knowledge to new pilots, something the IJA/IJN never did, they literally threw away experienced pilots because dying in combat was considered honorable but that made their entire air force and pilot quality weaker than that of USA
Agree. In beginings USA had slower and much more armored fighters, nice paralel X wing to Tie ... but they use their stenght - more machine guns and armor - so they atack dircetly agains zero and overshoot them. If zero gets behind them, it was nearly end to them.
@@IKsauce That's just not true at all, just look at the kamikaze pilots, literally nobody sane who would value their soldiers lives and experience would ever use such tactics and spends their soldiers lives more freely than bullets
@@PaperiLiidokkiGiven USN's superiority, kamikaze tactics were far more economic in term of human losses than any conventional attack. Kamikaze pilots were not sent to die for nothing, there were tactics involved. Coming back because you couldn't find your target wasn't also punished, provided it didn't happen too often. Kamikaze were nowhere as valued as experienced pilots, but they weren't used as consumables either.
The Battle of Yavin in ANH also suggests that TIEs are stealth fighters. The sensor suites of rebel fighters couldn't even detect the TIEs, they only knew of them when Yavin base detected a new set of signals.
Loved this video and your arguments. I always thought of the "TIE" as an analog for the Japanese "Zero" from WW2. Fast, agile and the best in class for the time it was designed in. The X-Wing is more of an American "Hellcat" or a "Corsair": newer, heavier and designed to beat the "TIE".
As someone who plays Squadrons in VR, I definitely agree the tie fighter screams out as needing an AR HUD similar to the f35. You should get some sort of red/green wireframe or something of ships outside your viewport.
The TIE is a fairly practical design for an Empire that has an (in theory) almost bottomless supply of personnel. It's an economical choice that conforms to the Tarkin doctrine. Like most critics I definitely agree that it's biggest hang up is its lack of a shield. Surviving an encounter is a great teacher and you would probably see more TIE Ace's to counter the Alliances tougher ships and likely more experienced fighter pilots. The centralized gun locations, high speed and maneuverability are great selling points though. Really when looked at through the lense of a WW2 Era pilot (since SW ships are kinda analogous to them) TIEs aren't bad. They didn't have shields and their armor plates were usually good enough for stopping little else but small arms fire and maybe some 12 to 13mm sized munitions. I'm sure a Zero, BF 109, Spitfire or a Hellcat pilot of the day would have loved a magical shield too.
A counter to the shield point: The x-wings were directed to switch shields to "double front" before passing through the Death Stars shield in IV. This would've killed their shields. If we use what we know about the x-wing games of the 90s. You have to lose some performance (engines) or offense (lasers) to recharge them. Since they were constantly being harassed by Ties or taking out laser batteries to clear a path for the Y-wings, they couldn't put much into recharging their shields so they were just as defenseless as the Ties they were facing.
A little note regarding the statements about how the US pilots dealt with the Zero: It wasn't ENTIRELY tactics and pilot attrition - we DID roll out a superior plane in 1943. The Grumman F6F Hellcat was able to beat the Zero in nearly every area, and it's only shortcomings to the Zero were too insignificant to effect the outcome of a dogfight between identically trained/experienced pilots. Fun history fact: The tactics developed for fighting Zeroes were developed thank to the Japanese leaving a Zero nearly undamaged on Alaska's Akutan Island. It was patched up and extensively flight tested to find it's flaws. It did not have an impact on the Hellcat's development(the Hellcat had its first flight a few weeks before the Akutan Zero was even found, and it was another two months before the repaired Zero's first test flight), but it certainly helped maximize our use of it.
Well even before the Hellcat and the Corsair, American aircraft were able to outrun Japanese fighters (unless you were the poor smuck in a P-400 or Brewster Buffalo) with standard tactics for P-40 and F4F pilots being to dive away to gain distance then either flee or climb to re-engage from an advantageous position. So yeah even in the early war, the American had planes that were arguably just as good but just had advantages in other areas. Now In Star Wars, that wouldn't be possible, but the X-Wing's does "hit and run" tactics does translate to the American planes employed in the early war.
@@thehighground7732 Very true, but it really still feels to me like the X-Wing is the F6F of the Star Wars universe. The F4F and P40 are more along the lines of what they had before then - the equipment that just happened to be available to hold the line. It doesn't invalidate the parallel to the tactics, as even after the F6F came online hit and run was a popular tactic because, well, it WORKED. Even when the more experienced Japanese aviators became familiar with the Hellcat's abilities, the US pilot would start doing hit and run dives just to bait Japanese pilots into the guns of another group of planes. But the ability to stand toe to toe in every aspect of a dogfight is what sets the F6F Hellcat apart from it's predecessors. And, when you really get down to it, same with the X-Wing(even after Disney retconned the A-Wing into coming first).
@@FormulaFox I think the X-wing is more akin to the P-38 Lightning than anything else, with the hyperdrive giving it the same abilities as the Lightning's operational range and ground attack armament of the P-38 after the P-38 F being able to carry ludicruous amounts of armament when compared to it's contemporaries. In terms of how the aircraft operated, the P-38 is the aircraft most akin to really any Rebel ship, but the X-wing in particular as it was designed as a long range escort fighter which could recon and attack ground targets, similar to the ARC 170 and X-wing. It wasn't particularly good at manovering, but it was still manoverable enough to suprise even the Japanese fighters at times.
@@thehighground7732 I would actually equate the P-38 more to the Y-Wing - the Y-Wing was meant for a more similar role to that P-38's intended use, and like P-38 is a multi-crew plane. I would also say the P-61 draws a good comparison to the Y-Wing for similar reasons. But when we expand to the whole war rather than just the Pacific Theater, the X-Wing actually seems to hold more in common with the P-51 Mustang than anything else. The P-51 was very capable of ground attack engagement, and while unlike the X-Wing it was rarely used for it(at least until the closing days of the European war when the Luftwaffe could barely get off the ground), neither were really built specifically to do it - it's just something they happened to be capable of. What's more, both were built with the idea of replacing a very specific predecessor and are in many ways based on said predecessor despite being quite different - the Z-95 for the X-Wing, and the P-40 for the P-51. They also both greatly turned things around for their side, with the P-51 allowing for a drastic reduction in bomber losses. Funnily enough, though, for all our analysis of this, none of the planes we've spoken of were George Lucas' ACTUAL inspiration for the X-Wing. His inspiration for it was the Supermarine Spitfire. Still, it's fun to draw these parallels and debate what craft various Star Wars fighters more closely line up with.
@@FormulaFox Yeah, the Mustang is probably the best comparison with how it was actually used in the war, although it is funny that the Spitfire is what inspired the X-Wing, considering it was a purebred interceptor, with middling range and passable speed but good manoverability.
![Quando Rondo - Grow Up [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8zFnCg3BO4Q/mqdefault.jpg)
In a New Hope there wasn't a single situation where a single X-Wing (or Y-Wing for that matter) was able to shake a TIE Fighter off its own tail. The Rebels always needed a wingman to 'clear six' for them.
That would actually make sense because the Tie is more maneuverable than the X-Wing. If the pilots were evenly matched it would be extremely difficult for the less maneuverable X-Wing to shake off a Tie Fighter.
You'd think the tail-gunner in the Y-Wing could prove somewhat useful, but no. Can't hit the broad side of a barn it seems.
Very much like war in the Pacific at the beginning. The only way to clear a Zero from you r rear was to fly scissors with your wingman, so you both fly parallel at some distance and as some Zero goes behind, they approach each other so wingman fires head on.
@@warmstrong5612Fairly certain the rebels got rid of the tail gunner in theirs.
@@Strideo1 well the TIE pilots were well trained and some skilled aces while most X wing pilots were untrained recruits or conscripts
Surprisingly you left out the Tie's biggest advantage:
It can pivot it's guns.
During the trench run, there are - _several_ - scenes where the Tie is NOT directly behind the Y/X-wing, but it still hits the ship by pivoting it's guns, thus never having to get directly behind them.
Yeah but if you want to count that then you got Y and A wings that can do the same. The big reason we never see the turret fire in the movies is that they dropped the gunner so the pilot has to manually aim the guns while piloting. You have to admit that would be great for strafing runs. Fly parallel and just hose down your target with ion fire.
at 0:47 theres a scene where an x-wing shoots its lasers off centre-line axis implying pivotable laser mounts for the X-wing as well. it doesnt make a huge amount of sense but that may not be an advantage if they both have it.
Both can pivot guns how else can you converge the four guns on a x-wing.
@@sheilaolfieway1885 That's not the same thing.
WWII fighter planes wing guns converged at a focal point in front of the plane. But, they did not pivot as they were fixed onto the wings just like the X-wing.
@@coltseavers6298 Their not fixed on the x-wing.
Regarding converging gun lines: in WW2, most planes had an ability to adjust the converging distance, but it was something that had to be done on the ground, with tools.
Some squadrons dictated the converging ranges for all planes.
Some planes and squadrons used a different converging range for each pair of guns if the plane had more than one per wing. For example, the outer pair would converge at a greater distance then the inner pair.
And there were some pilots who were able to choose their own converging range(s). I wish I could remember the name, but I saw a documentary on a pilot who set his convergence very close because he preferred to dogfight tightly. There was another pilot who set his very far out, because he shot planes like a duck hunter by leading them in high-deflection angles, and sending rounds out to where they would be, not by getting in behind them. The second pilot dealt with command not believing his shootdown numbers because his targets rarely appeared on his gun camera.
One of the top WWII ACE's flew a P38 which had guns in the middle. I recall hearing that he made some very long range hits for a few of his kills.
@@mechag7379 The P38 could be a BEAST!
I saw a documentary on some of the gun options for that plane, from a near dozen 50 caliber machine guns to outright autocannons.
@@mechag7379 Indeed. That plane had no convergence whatsoever because of that. Made it extremely deadly as a result.
@@MonkeyJedi99 IIRC it had a 20mm cannon in addition to its array of .50's. Scary, _scary_ plane it was. If I recall correctly, the Japanese coined it the "twin-tailed devil." It also was the plane that killed one of Japan"s greatest fleet admirals.
@@TheEDFLegacy The “Twin-tailed devil” nickname came from the Luftwaffe.
I honestly don't think George Lucas intended for the TIE to be what it's typically viewed as (thanks to the EU). I suspect that he intended the TIE to be equal or even superior to an X-wing, making the point of how "plucky" the Rebellion was. This shows in how the TIE is "clean," as are its pilots, who are in full flight suits not because of necessity, because they can afford it. In contrast the Rebellion has to make due with obsolete fighters and pieced old jumpsuits that aren't going to actually do anything should you end up in vacuum.
Basically the EU made the main characters' plot armor part of the X-wing, rather than just accepting it as plot armor.
Yeah the EU made a lot of badly fanfiction "canon" which made no sense. One most wonder how the empire became a thing when there troops are bad, the ships are fragil to the point that a strange look can destroy them and even their main battleships get wrecked the moment they fight a force far smaller, far less developed and with fewer resources like the moncalamari...
Well Lucas supposedly use Battle Of Britain footage instead of the SF Dogfights when first asked to show the studio what he was making.
Those had dogfights between Harriers and Spitfires versus Messerschmitt Bf 109E's. There's marginal differences in performance and handling between the 109 and Spitfire.
I think that's what Lucas wanted with TIEs and X-Wings.
@@garygcrook Hurricanes, not Harriers.
Yeah the WW2 analogy was apt, Zeroes vs Wildcats was always the best fit, although anything with a parity like 109s and Spitfires works. The EU such as the earliest RPG's and the first X-Wing games had to have the player characters survive against dozens of enemies for the fun of that encounter and that was forever codified by the books and games on and on. This video is an exccllent counterpoint to the decades of that and I always wish for there to be something closer in portraly to the original films in all the expanded content.
@@joel466 Sorry late night replies when feeling very tired.
I may have gotten the manufacturer mixed up with the plane.
If I remember right, I think the X-wing series by Stackpole addresses this. The shields on the rebel fighters allow new pilots to survive their "mistakes", while in the tie line mistake = death. This led to more seasoned pilots in the rebel fleet. But in the hands of an expert or ace, the tie was the superior fighter.
Other things to consider, the Imperial Fleet was not built around countering the Rebel fleet, and the X-wings, A-wings, and B-wings were all newly developed during or just before the rebellion kicked off in earnest. Most of what the imperial fleet was dealing with would have been far outclassed by the Tie line. The Tie Defender the empire developed as a counter made rebel fights look like a joke.
Kind of hammers the point home that there’s no such thing as failure in the empire
Imagine if either Pryce didn't fuck up or Ezra didn't yeet himself and Thrawn into uncharted space. TIE Defender Project could have changed the Battle of Yavin
but even with ie fighter expert aces , 1 mistake = death Loss
Loved how Stackpole really got into the fighter pilot mentality with the shield and mistake bit and how Reb pilots "dialed up" the internal compensator to the point they couldn't feel their ship or how badly they were damage and pull a "Porkins". Wealth of starfighter knowledge if unrealistic pilots lore.
You must also take into account that even if the TIE pilots fought and survived an rebel attack ot does not mean that he will fight them again any time soon. There would be a million places with stationised TIE fighters and the rebells would rarely hit the same spot twice. It is safe to assume that TIE pilots have a greater life expectation that the rebell counterparts. Simply because most rebell missions where attacks. (Which can drain more pilots as otherwise) it is rarely even descriped how the rebel pilots feel since they are under constant stress because they could die every single day.
I also want to mention something that is noticed in the Rogue Squadron games. When fighting in space, the TIE series's design and paint color allow them to get some camouflage in space. Seeing the target is a bit difficult even when you have the red dot on your radar. Due to the fact that they all have similar designs, it can also be sometimes difficult to tell which TIE is which.
@@michaelandreipalon359 Darth Bob sends his regards. In person.
@@nihilegoprime3078 Bruh, don’t remind me.
The targeting computer in Rogue Squadron seems to be designed to allow you to work around the fact that you're stuck in 480i or 480p if you're lucky.
Considering how popular Top Gun Maverick is, I wish Star Wars would start integrating modern dogfighting techniques and maneuvers that were pioneered in the Jet Age instead of WWII. I mean imagine if the Rogue Squadron movie comes out and we see its pilots do modern maneuvers and using missiles and torpedoes more out of line of sight.
I think the bigest reason in-universe fore the close range battles is that the computers are good enough to block the targeting of guided missiles and torpedoes.
@@ArmouryTerrain We haven't seen jammers and even in the EU torpedoes and missiles are crucial anti-starfighter weapons. Hell Obi-wan's fighter would have been destroyed by a barrage of missiles in the Battle of Coruscant if the missile that beat his Eta-2's speed didn't just drop the gremlin droids on it.
Alternatively, imagine if Star Wars ships actually used manoeuvres from the zero friction, zero G environment they mostly fight in. Consider accelerating past a capital ship, only to flip backwards before reaching it, and using the main engines to set up a tight, fast circular orbit where the main weapons of the fighter are consistently pointed directly at the carrier or cruiser, whatever, not important. Imagine a squadron sliding sideways across a vessel while maintaining aim, leaving a trail of destruction in their wake before accelerating away on the same angle. Imagine a ship *actually* suited to zero-g combat: essentially the Death Star but of a more ordinary size and no main gun to either target or avoid, just mostly equal firepower and thrust in every directions. Imagine an actual fight in actual orbit, where accelerations are targeted and brief, adjusting orbital parameters to make or avoid attacks minutes or hours later like 3D space chess with lasers, surprise interceptions from orbits at 90 degree relative inclination, and vicious orbital debris capable of taking down significant ships should they wander into the path (or are tricked into doing so). Star Wars doesn’t take advantage of its setting for space combat
It wouldn't happen because modern dogfighting techniques, while similar to techniques of old (particularly of the 'energy school' of fighter combat), they tend to be BVR almost entirely. This is positively _boring_ for an audience outside of a handful of teams in _any_ visual medium that isn't simulator. Thus why we're stuck with essentially WW2 dogfighting. Period.
@@TheTrueAdept 'Positively boring'...Topgun Maverick kind of shoots down that theory there. Modern dogfighting is just as exhilarating as old school dodgfighting.
There is exactly 1 thing that really, really hurts the Tie as a design. It lacks shields. Shields allow a starfighter to take some hits (even if it’s not a flying tank; surviving a hit is better than not). Being able to survive contact with the enemy allows starfighter pilots to gain experience and actually get good.
This is the major difference between rebel fighter pilots and imperial fighter pilots. The rebels survived contact with the enemy and developed experience that multiplied the skills they developed in training. Imperial pilots by and large did not. Add to the fact that the rebel alliance was small, and the empire enormous and you’re naturally going to have a greater percentage of fighting aces emerge from the rebel fighter corps. This means that the more skilled and experienced rebel pilots often engaged inexperienced and unprepared imperial pilots. The result was a very high K/D ratio among rebel pilots and an abysmal K/D ratio among imperial pilots.
Throwing shields on a tie is not the solution to defeat the rebel alliance. All that really does is improve the tie’s K/D ratio and probably it’s reputation as well. I doubt i have enough room to explain how to defeat the rebellion's fighter tactics. but lets just say it's not easy.
see also: shields and other survivability mechanisms would do wonders for pilots' morale and confidence.
So I'm going old school with this but in the original Thrawn and X Wing books they address your points and agreed with you as do I
Compounding the lack of durability is the fact that those wings are giant targets (source: have played the videogames), which makes it much easier to get in shots than it would be if they were more modest a la the TIE interceptor.
To be fair that just made any Imperial that survived considerably FAR more dangerous than the Rebel Aces.
Anyone who could survive a literal glass cannon was going to be far more deadly flying the more expensive and specialized craft.
The prestige of flying TIE Interceptors, Bombers, and Defenders which actually had shields was something for an Imperial pilot to work toward and unless you were a top notch Rebel Ace, even the most experienced Rebel pilots turned tail and ran when a 'Squint' showed up on IFF.
The Empire's philosophy toward developing Aces was survival of the fittest which while made them lower in number, arguably made much better pilots to the point where when a specialist craft did show their head, most Rebels panicked and ran because they were facing a known Imperial Ace who had survived countless engagements with more durable opponents in a much more fragile craft making them absolutely fearless and terrifyingly skilled.
They could afford those kind of losses and it was a mark of Pride in the Imperial Navy to be seen as the Galaxy's most feared and fearless pilots in the galaxy. If you were to walk up to any Imperial Pilot and suggest they should be using shields they'll look at you like you've grown an extra head and sneer at you suggesting you're a worthless coward who doesn't deserve to fly with the Empire's Best.
You had to prove yourself to get access to the best equipment. It worked for the Empire in developing Aces that frankly outskilled most of their Rebel Counterparts.
That isn't to say your point isn't valid ether. Having a larger contingent of experienced pilots who have survived engagements and trust in their equipment to protect them as opposed to a pack of panicky greenhorns would very much help carry the Rebels in the long run. There's less turnover, more camaraderie, and people don't need to constantly learn how everyone works which makes group operations much more smoothly.
The Rebels and The Empire simply operated on two different philosophies. Both valid in their own way. It basically meant that any game changing moves came from the top down which is where it should be.
Well the thing is, Imperial Pilots were considered among the best in the galaxy (alot of Rebel aces are Imperial defectors) - though you are correct in everything else, the lack of a shield prevents the pilots from continuing in battle as long as the X-wing and other shielded ships could
An alternate interpretation on the low cost of the TIEs: it's not that they're "easily replaceable" so much as they are "readily available". That is to say, TIEs being inexpensive (as fighters go, anyway) means the Empire can basically hand them out like candy to any ship or base equipped with a tall enough ladder.
That means most Imperial ships and bases will have their own fighter screen on hand. Not only does that give them another weapon, it gives them a HUGE degree of tactical flexibility for both offense and defense.
It also means there is a training pipeline probably even bigger than the pilots' cranking out mechanics and technicians to work on the TIEs, who _also_ get farmed out to almost every base or ship. That is huge, especially for an empire as sprawling as the... uh... the Empire. I mean, consider how much of a logistical nightmare it must have been for the Rebels, trying to source parts and qualified mechanics from a dozen different manufacturers, for fighters that run the gamut from "bleeding-edge prototype" to "museum piece" to "scratch-built by an enthusiast in his garage", most of whom have complex moving parts - what a mess. It's a miracle they managed to kitbash _any_ serious force of strike craft into battle. By comparison, keeping TIEs in action would seem like simplicity itself: most of the systems carry over from one model to the next, there's probably huge degrees of parts compatibility, they're almost entirely solid-state with no moving parts, there are huge numbers of pilots and techs being pumped through their respective pipelines every day... SO much less of a logistical headache, even considering how the Empire hands out TIEs like party favors.
Well said. The Empire had everything it needed to make the best navy in the galaxy, and it's not so hard to argue that they did achieve that goal in part. The lots of the best minds, materials, labour, finance - even the Tarkin-Doctrine couldn't ruin that war-machine entirely.
Shout out to all those people who make the magic happen!
Far too many people undervalue good logistics (see Russia). High maintenance costs ruin operational readiness and training. The TIE suited its role perfectly.
The ease of construction and low cost is perfect for the needs of the Empire, especially when you consider how quickly it needed to produce a lot of them. Another thing that is overlooked is that the TIE fighter was never really designed to fight the Rebellion. Their primary function would have been to deal with smugglers, pirates and raiders, not an organized military. We can see that the Empire had already taken steps to improve it's snub fighters with the introduction of the TIE bomber and TIE interceptor after the initial clashes with the Rebellion's X and Y wings.
@@LoneWolf-rc4go A valid point. Haven't seen that mentioned before, rhat I can remember.
In the EU, it's expressly mentioned that Rebel ships ended up being the spaceship version of custom-built PC's by a point: even if the outside "shell" is the same, the internal parts were just whatever the person maintaining them could afford and find - often even connected by basically hardwiring them together.
There's one part where someone (I think Corran Horn) tries repair an old X-Wing and opens it up to discover that basically none of the parts are the parts are what it would have originally come with. This, of course, is a bit annoying, as Corran had just brought a bunch of standard x-wing parts to repair it with.
So you're entirely right: the original rebellion was facing a logistical nightmare, which they seem to have dealt with by just not standardising anything.
Eckhartsladder: so the TIE fighter is more like an interceptor...
TIE interceptor: hey, that's me
I always thought that how the TIEs were portrayed in A New Hope was that they were fast, with good targeting systems, even as far to say as they were high tech compared to the X and Y Wings, but the X-Wings were more sturdy, and gave more of a feeling of good ol' reliable vehicles.
My mind always went to Zeros vs Wildcats.
The toyota hilux of the star wars universe
@@jrggrop I just made the same argument. Should have scrolled down before commenting, I guess. 😀
That isn't how they were portrayed at the battle of Endor though. Where thousands of ties faced off against hundreds of Rebel ships and got spanked.
@@biggusdickus7611 RotJ also had a legion of the Emperor’s finest troops stomped by carnivorous teddy bears and one squad of rebel commandos. The empire could have had 1G to 1 odds and still would have lost. It’s just that it was made a little less unbelievable by the rebels having at least a fair amount of ships on screen.
This video bothered me because every time I thought of something he hadn't mentioned, he went ahead and mentioned it a few seconds later.
If you've ever played the games, the biggest points of the TIE fighters are small size (hard to hit), good turn speed (hard to hit), no shields, and no hyperdrive.
Of those, the non-shields are the most important. If you're flying one, the second hit will kill you, every time. You have to fly in a way that you never get hit. So yeah. I noticed that in the game, you can periodically take a hit to the X-Wing shields and regenerate them, so that your hull takes no damage. In the movies, X-Wings go boom after one or two hits. So, that's a big difference.
In the end, though, none of these are the most important differences. The true most important things about TIE fighters are the SOUNDS of the twin ion engines and the rattle of the lasers as they cool down after firing. Do you know what an X-Wing sounds like as it flies by? No, you do not. Do you know the sound of a TIE fighter as it screams past? Oh, hell yes you know!
True, always good to know when the cannon fodder arrives. Like a dinner bell. 🔔
The screeching sound of a thousand howling ghosts blasting through space, blotting out the stars, twin lasers biting through the blackness of the void.
Yes I am a fellow TIE enjoyer.
One reason I liked the Tie Interceptor in the games. Fast enough to go in on the attack with few able to stay close behind them.
Actually, I can hear them XWing engines in my head.
I've heard the reason for ships having "sound in space" in Star Wars is an in-universe Coconut Effect.
The ships sensors pick up where a fighter is in relation to their ship and broadcast the sound over speakers in the cockpit from the appropriate angle and direction.
It both provides the very fallible organic pilots a method for situational awareness and is because *no sound* would actually be more disorienting, since people are so used to hearing things happening around them.
We, the audience, just happen to be seeing the story from the POV of the characters, who would be hearing the "TIE sound over speakers" themselves.
I love the attention to detail with the fighters, especially the cross section of the guns on X wings. All pilots flying planes with wing-mounted armaments had to deal with this problem, and they had their weapons pre-set before takeoff and can’t change them until they land again. That was a huge advantage to a plane like the P-38 or Me-262 or BF-109: their nose was their firing platform, meaning their fire was centralized and generally had longer range, depending on the arc of fire they used.
Fighters with wing-mounted weaponry compensated by using the Gun Site to direct the Firepower from one wing, if the guns on the other Wing were to hit would be considered an added bonus
I think it wouldn't be that surprising of in SW they could change it in flight
@@jamesricker3997 That would make little sense, and would be a waste of weight and firepower.
Wing-mounted guns were generally set so their lines of fire would converge directly in front of the aircraft at a given point.
9:49 The TIE Fighter game from 1994 shows that TIE pilots do in fact have a feed from cameras attached to various parts of the ship that allow them to switch from their default directional view and see around their peripherals.
I think the TIE fighter has been flanderized to hell over the years. Star Wars writers went from "these are relatively cheap, streamlined fighters that aren't quite as powerful and versatile as the x-wings" to "these are garbage cannon fodder that get thrown at the enemy with no care and drop like flies".
same could be said about the stormtroopers
Oh yeah.
Fair enough.
I think the tie fighter has stronger laser cannons, I could be wrong but the x-wings were realitivly new fighters even if the examples we saw in a New hope were a bit worn down, the x-wings were realitivly new fighters based on the Older ARC-170.
@@sheilaolfieway1885 A lot depends on whether we're talking Legends or Canon. In Legends, those X-Wings were practically brand new, but I have no idea what Canon says.
I thought one of the EU book indicated that star wars fighters used audio cues to indicate information to the pilot. So if a shot goes whizzing past them or a enemy fighter comes up on their tail the ship makes a sound of a blaster bolt, or ship engine come from the same direction to so the pilot will hear the threat behind them(also hand waving noise in space). Unfortunately I can't recall where I read or heard it from so it might just be a fanon thing, but if it is canon it does explain the pilot turning their heads as a instinctive response to a sound.
Yep. There are speakers on every ship that make the sounds. It is silly but it is official
@@thetomdillengerescapeplan3525 I'm guessing that the system then would be an array of proximity sensors for objects that aren't in the pilot's fov which are linked up to internal directional speakers [similar to actual surround sound, where you can accurately determine direction based entirely off of noise] because people would generally react faster to audio cues than to visual ones.
Whilst I don't know whether this is true or not in Star Wars, I do know that the Starfuries of Babylon 5 had simular features simply to provide more feedback to the pilots of what is going on outside the range of the viewport (or to justify why there was sound inside a space battle). It's simply good design strategy for a space fighter, regardless of this is "in universe" or, say, inside a video game. You want that little bit of audiable feedback of "there's someone behind me even if I can't see them" if you're going to pilot something.
The A6M Zero relied on its agility for protection, at least for most of its life. Armor may help protect the pilot, but the added weight’ll make it more difficult either to get guns on target or to get an opponent’s guns off target.
The relatively low horsepower of the Zero’s engine and the design objective of getting as much range out of the plane as possible didn’t help much either.
lack of self sealing fuel tanks led to a lot of dead pilots. most US aces ended their career as trainers, the Japanese aces ended theirs as fireballs. Being shot down, especially over ocean in an F4F was surprisingly survivable, a6m and ki-43, very rarely,
The zero worked till the US said Fuck It and slapped a giant ass engine in a armored bath tub and made it faster, more maneuverable, able to take hits and dish out damage. Something the zero couldn't do.
One point that doesn't come up much is that later testing showed that the Zero was a remarkably rugged aircraft. It had it's weaknesses (the fuel tanks and lack of splinter protection for pilots for example), but the actual airframes were as strong or stronger than most Allied aircraft.
The Hellcat had an armoured oil pump, which did more to improve survivability than the backseat plate and bulletproof windscreen did. Sometimes it's not the thing you think of that's going to save you.
@@DanielJoyce Training and knowledge of the capabilities and limitations of Japanese fighters also helped. Attempting to dogfight an A6M, even for a late-war US fighter, was a bad idea.
Training and health also played a big part early on. Japans pilot training was better than pretty much anyone else's, and they had a lot of experience. over China. Meanwhile, allied pilots at the start of the war were less experienced, as well as being more prone to be at ill health due to tropical diseases. And then they encountered these planes for the first time, with little fore-knowledge. As the war went on, the experience edge shifted, while the medical issue advantage went away as well.
You can see these things play out in various ways in the war. The Wildcat, for example, is generally seen as inferior to the Zero, but by Midway, when it had improved armor for the pilot and self-sealing fuel tanks, as well as some tactics on how to deal with Zeroes, it did just fine against them. It is, essentially, an equal to the Zero, when used properly, with equal pilot experience. The Spitfire, a plane generally not considered inferior to the Zero, did not do well against it when the Japanese carriers raided Australia. With one exception, a pilot who had previously been serving in Africa and consequently had a lot of experience. Despite being outnumbered badly, the Japanese couldn't take him down. And then you get the Japanese pilot shortage, as their lack of focus on saving pilots and making sure they had an adequate number of well trained replacements led to their pilot quality drastically dropping, and consequently, a much worse loss ratio. And lastly, one of the Japanese aces who survived had a late war encounter with a squadron of Hellcats, generally considered superior to the Zero. But because of his experience, and the Hellcat squadron being one fresh from the States, he survived. Something he attributes to being possible only because of the experience gap.
Based on what we’ve seen the tie fighters, they ironically would’ve been the far superior Battlefield groups if they were just organized better. The empire seemed to kick them out of the bays and just hope for the best, lending most of their attention to whatever was going on with the larger ships. Had tie fighter attack groups actually organized and worked in tandem with one another, they probably would’ve mopped the floor with the smaller groups of X-Wing attackers, even with a slight tech and support disadvantage. The Empire had no shortage of skilled pilots, no shortage of ships, and no shortage of support or logistics to assist them… But they failed in notorious fashion to bother leveraging any of that, instead depending on the superior fire power of carrier groups which was exactly what the X-Wings were designed to counter. Had to put more time into organizing their interceptors the X-Wings probably never would’ve stood a chance. However, this pretty solidly highlights the problem with the empire in the first place; they depended on overwhelming force and didn’t bother to actually strategize very much. Given that, there were always openings for the X-Wings to take advantage of and tie fighter pilots were usually just trying to fill the gap in fire power.
empire viewed them as expendable assets thus never bothered to make sure they were playing nice with each other - on top of that empire enocuraged a cutthroat competiton - and that makes cooperation tricky - when you know the other guy is more likely to have you whacked than to keep your back aka your demise is his promotion xD
i would establish in the Lore that the Empire was rapidly expanding between Yavin and Endor that that one thing that had to go was advanced pilot training.
I would further establish that the Imperial pilot training program while good was too short and did not include later education or rotations to training garrisons.
Basically if you were an imperial TIE pilot you would be put through a rapid rigorous training program where you would be forced to cram tons of material- then when you graduated you would be dumped into the fleet and would spend your career in some backwater garrison or starship until slots opened up for higher command (which was extremely rare)
The Empire did not prioritize further training and did not rotate pilots so most TIE pilots skills would get sloppy from lack of use. 99.9% of your time would be routine patrols with 0.1% OH fuck rebels
Further-moor the Imperial Navy would be bias to promote TIE Pilots who demonstrated high levels of Aggressiveness which would lead to high losses in combat since many TIE Pilots may just be a little suicidal from the boredom of Garrison duty. Risking death to gain promotion to someplace else would be worth it.
Thank you for your service to the fan-base, Eck. This vid is a good reality check.
I haven't read the books lately, but I was always under the impression that the rebel pilots knew very well they could die in any moment of any engagement. They relied on their shields to survive mistakes and laughed about the TIE's lack of shields, but they were scared of those Imperial pilots underneath. This was most evident - at least to me - when the best of the best faced each other. The X-wings were impressive machines and Rebel Aces could make them dance, but the Imperial Aces in their TIE interceptors were their nemeses in every way even without shields.
I remember that even the suggestion of Soontir Fel’s 181st Interceptor Squadron was enough to make even Rogue Squadron shit their pants.
Its one of those things.
Initially, the TIE was presented as an equal match for the hero ships. But eventually became memed into a garbage flying deathtrap.
Much like the storm trooper armor and capability. I don't recall the source, but the armor is supposed to turn what would be a fatal blaster shot into simply a disabling one. And, of course, the accuracy lauded by old Ben becomes "can't hit a tin-can from three feet away," in modern representations.
Nah the tie fighter stinks. It's all about those Interceptors baby. And I don't mean the ones we see in Squadrons shooting rockets. Gimme six lasers, some powerful engines, throw a red stripe down the solar panel and now you've got something. 181st shout out
^THIS.
the 181st started with the OG TIE/LN so dont disrespect it.
@@laisphinto6372 Yep and they were called the 180 worst when they did. There is a reason they swapped over as soon as they were able.
@@Andy_Sidaris after having a massive win with TIE/LNs they didnt use Interceptors before ever having an Elite Status
Under the teachings of Soontir Fel, The Baron of the Empire, im not sure that even a swarm of X-wing can stop them
If 1970's cinematic tech was on par, I would have loved to see more shielding effects in the original trilogy, even the original designs used, like the bubble turret on the Y-wing.
In the old X-Wing games, you could set convergence to a certain distance, but I always imagined that if you lock on a target, the ship's targeting computer would automatically set convergence for you. Actually, in a cockpit view scene from Wedge's point of view during the Battle of Endor, you can see that he hits a TIE Interceptor that isn't directly in front of him but off center, so this shows that X-wing cannons are able to track a target to a certain degree (that was also a thing in the first Rogue Squadron game). I would guess that setting convergence manually helps if the enemy is blocking your targeting computer.
The Alphabet squadron book had a really good description of a tie fighter as being like a Knife, in the hands of an unskilled pilot it is basically useless, but in the hands of a truly skilled pilot they are deadly.
Yeah that analogy works if every other fighter is a gun. Never bring a knife to a gun fight
@@thetomdillengerescapeplan3525 that's a bad analogy. Every other ship is a melee weapon. The Tie is cheap, small, quick and easy to make. The xwing is a sword, expensive, bigger but packs a decent punch but is harder to master
@@JJJBunney001 But that isn't the case. Luke had never been inside of an Xwing or any experience with piloting a ship. His T16 had a similiar cockpit but wouldn't handle the same especially in space. Luke was able to match some of the Empire's best pilots who were selected to serve on the Death Star in his very first time piloting any ship in space.
It sounds silly to pretend the Xwing wouldn't be a gun if the Tie fighter was a knife.
If the Empire is going to rely on fighters that work best with a highly skilled confident pilot, then they are idiots not to at least equip their fighters with shields. A little extra survivability could do wonders for pilots' morale.
@@thetomdillengerescapeplan3525 That would be embarrassing then, since 9 people with knives took out 22 people with guns at the Battle of Yavin.
The Expanded Universe material insisted that TIEs sucked because they were so fragile. Yet the canon movies show “shielded” fighters still succumbing to single hits, with luck occasionally allowing a fighter to survive a glancing blow but with considerable damage.
A low cost, highly maneuverable fighter makes sense in this context.
The Empire had an endless supply of guys who couldn't hit targets. So yeah, why bother putting them in expensive craft?
In the videogame Tie Fighter and subsequent games in the X-Wing vs Tie Fighter series you could experience for yourself that Tie Fighters could be deadly weapons. They're fast, nimble, and pack ample firepower for taking down enemy star fighters.
@@michaelmorris1741 that's not cannon, every imperial soldier/ pilot who missed either had orders to let them escape, or were not shooting to kill.
ep 4 tarkin let them go on vaders hunch/ gamble, and tantive IV they were not killing anyone until one of their own was shot & killed (they then proceeded to wipe the floor with the enemy)
stormtroopers having bad aim is a misconception that has been exaggerated & inflated over the years.
I think it’s cool how Squadrons dealt with most of the Empire not having shields. In exchange for being a tank like the Rebels you could fly around really fast, put all of your power into your lasers, and then light somebody up! Basically doing a drive by is how you play the Empire in Squadrons.
Rebel fighters weren't tanks though, X wings couldn't take any more punishment than a TIE
@@KaelanF I think with the shields and their health they were a bit more survivable though.
@Priestly not at all, watch episode 4 again
@@KaelanF ties??? More like DIES with one x wing hit.
I always assumed deflector shields were exactly that: Shields meant to deflect shots away from the ship. They “angled” the shields towards probable incoming fire, but it didn’t stop a direct hit from an unexpected vector. TIE fighters usually fired multiple bursts at their targets even after a lock on, which to me seemed like they were adjusting for the shields as they went.
It just seemed more sensible to me since usually the shots seemed fatal regardless of class, y wings, x wings, and a wings all going down in a few direct hits.
As far as TIE design, they seemed wasteful more than anything. Pilots are a valuable resource and losing a few good pilots can destroy a squadron’s cohesion and effectiveness. They had the resources to make better fighters, but their doctrine squandered those for more Destroyers.
Could have just used drones if they wanted cheap fighters based from a carrier, would have been lighter and could fit more weapons (Not droids.) I don't see a lot of electronic warfare being used in canon so they would have performed adequately.
The main advantage was probably the cost. If you need to outfit an galaxy spanning army in a few years than you take the most economic solution first and upgrade the army after a couple of years when everything settles a bit down
shields deflecting hits is how my headcanon justifies seeing shields in New Hope somehow stop turbolaser fire (there are several scenes where it looks like x-wings were hit by somtething). Otherwise there would be little sense in "shields on double front" sentences, since a heavy turbolaser SHOULD destroy a single starfighter with one shot no matter how powerful it's shields are.
@@Delvien I think it would have been really cool if the First Order's main TIEs were droids rather than manned, replacing the cockpit glass with red photoreceptors. They could have kept their narrative role as swarming cannon fodder, but it would show an evolution beyond the Empire's weak tactics.
@@michaelramon2411 Agreed, the biggest issue for the empire is hanger space. Being able to store and launch fighters from storage racks would make ISDs with the most limited hanger space capable of moving vast quantities of strike craft. On top of that they can launch them faster then needing to wait for a pilot. Recovery is slower but since they are droids they can just be left behind to pick up later or just abandoned.
The main faction in my own headworld does similarly, though on smaller carriers the drones are carried externally.
Thank you Eck, this video is long overdue.
I'm sick and tired of seeing tie fighters in media be portrayed as a background noise, especially in mandalorian and rebels.
As far as maneuverability goes we have one or more "I can't shake him off" from rebel pilots, suggesting ties can't be evaded in dogfight.
One thing you didn't mention about tie strengths- solar panels mean tie fighter can fly longer and doesn't need fuel (ok, it only needs a bit for it's weapon's reactor).
X-wing cannons shoot slower since I believe they were design to push the limits of a standard blaster cannon when it comes to power output, that's why they need flashback suppressors. I'd say they are close to medium blaster cannons (which we saw in ARC-170) when it comes to power without sacrificing rate of fire too much. While tie has a tendency to shoot in short but rapid series of shots.
A quote from "The Essential Guide to Warfare" sums up the TIE fighter pretty well; "the TIE was an extension of the minimalist philosophy behind the Eta-2: a fast, nimble fighter for a daring, skilled pilot. Unfortunately, very few TIE pilots were equals of Jedi."
Although, it's difficult to get good numbers of daring, skilled pilots when you force them to fly in death traps.
Ironically TIE fighters probably would have been unholy terrors in the hands of a Jedi or a Rebel pilot. The Empire were fools not to equip their TIEs with shields and other pilot-survivability mechanisms.
I was searching the comment section to see if anyone brings this up (and the source of the info), but yeah, I could also swear that it was said (it was the Essential Guide to Warfare that said this, lol) that the TIE Fighter was inspired by the Eta-2 and originally meant to be piloted by (Dark Side) Force sensitive pilots and thus their reflexes would be so great that the TIE Fighter, like the Eta-2, didn't need shields for defense; just great speed and maneuverability for dodging and heavier laser cannons for offense is all that would be needed. Cost cutting and such was just a bonus.
@@DrownedInExile They were fools not to build a bunch of tie-defender style craft. The Rebel fleet was so comparatively tiny...oh, why bother?
It was more the philosophy behind Anakin's modifications to... everything he flew.
In Ep4 there was mention of "set shields to double front", and I think to the rear at one point when TIEs were coming from behind, so they were clearly using them. However, shields may have been at a lower setting at times to increase speed, particularly in the trench run. Or previously worn down and not yet recharged.
I always hated shooting something with a TIE fighter only to have debris take me out. At 5:24 X-Wing handles it no problem.
The Thatch Weave was used to high effect against the Zero, and you see it used in the movies every time there was a TIE fighter coming in to kill an X-Wing, only to be saved by a an X-Wing killing the TIE, either from behind or by a head on pass. It was Teamwork! Also, am I wrong but was there an X Wing pilot that survived Both the Battle of Sacarif and the Attack on the X Wing? Kinda Sounded like a Hick over the radio? I want to know more about that pilot.
TIEs are absolutely incredible fighters given just how vast the Empire was. Creating a fighter that is simple to build and cheap so that it can be mass-produced for an entire navy while also being extremely reliable in terms of its engine quality, speed, and armament strength is no small feat.
All I haz to say iz pp and poo poo lol
In a Star Wars news letter I still have, the X-wing and Y-wing are described as outdated fighters that were stripped down to bare essentials and hot-rodded so they stood a chance against the much more advanced Imperial TIE fighters. The biggest telling factor of this was that the TIE had twin ion engines where as the X and Y wings were using rocket engines. Yes, you read that right. Rocket engines.
It was the videos games (X-Wing and TIE Fighter) that drastically altered this source material and made the X and Y wings suddenly superior fighter craft. The idea that the Y-wing is some sort of heavy flying tank was never part of the original films as they get shredded in a hit or two just like any other non-hero craft, and the X-wing was basically built up to be superior in every way since it was the ship our hero flew in the saga.
The intention in the films was, as described in this video, to emulate the experience of WW2 allied fighters like the P-40 Warhawk or the P-26 Peashooter fighting against the Japanese Zero in the early years of the pacific war. The Empire's equipment was superior to the Rebels in every category, what they couldn't buy, however, was the tenacity and grit of the pilots who fought for the Rebellion.
Well said.
Yeah, I could never get the whole "heavily armored" bit when it came to describing the Y-Wing, especially when later material even admitted that the Y-Wing was heavily stripped down of pretty much all non-essential parts that couldn't be replaced due to its age.
I can definitely see it on the original Clone Wars version, but the Galactic Civil War version? No way. Heavy *shielding* I can still see, but not armor.
@@HalfDemonInuyasha I'd argue there's no contradiction. "Vanilla" Y-Wings would be heavily armoured, but the ones we see have been being operated by an organisation pressed for materials and facing logistical issues for quite a while, and have long since had that armour destroyed or removed.
No reason to assume the Y-Wings weren't, "out of the box" armoured. In fact, some likely still are. Just not most of them, anymore.
While this does make a lot of sense, I'd like to point out that George Lucas himself ends up contradicting this with the prequel trilogy.
The Battle of Coruscant and the events of Revenge of the Sith take place roughly 19 years before the
Battle of Yavin and the events of a New Hope. At that point, we see no indication that the X-Wing even exists, as well as obviously the Tie's. Instead, we have the ARC-170, the Eta-2 Actis Interceptor, and the V-wing, the latter two of which which seems to be the Republic's first steps towards things like the Tie fighter. Other series, like Clone Wars, obviously shows that at least some variant of the Y-Wing is in service with the Republic clone armies, so it is indeed an outdated model by the time of the Galactic Civil war. However, the X-wing would not necessarily be an outdated starfighter if it doesn't even exist yet, meaning it'd likely be relatively modern, like the Tie Fighter.
now yes, I know somebody will likely go 'well that's just because everyone is so used to the canon that got put out by all the extra media so Lucas just went with it'. And yes, that would be a fair point. except George Lucas easily could have simply done whatever it is he wanted to do with the prequel trilogy. He could have ignored what all the games and books had established and showed the earliest prototypes of the X-Wing being used in the Clone Wars. He didn't. Instead, we have the Arc-170. Which sort of does look like an X-Wing, but isn't.
Ultimately, I look at the X-Wing as being more like the Wildcat (developed in 1940), or maybe even getting up there into the F6F Hellcat or the F4U Corsair range. The Y-Wing and the Z-95 Headhunters certainly fit the role of outdated ships used against technologically more modern and superior fighters, but I think the X-wing, even in George Lucas' mind, ended up representing the more modern fighters that, while not necessarily able to beat the Tie (or Zero, using the analogy) in their own game, could beat them in other ways thanks to developmental advantages they have over the Tie as well as more experienced pilots in the long run.
What? The X-Wings were always developed shortly before the battle of Yavin. It's only been in the Disney continuity that it was developed long before. The original SW notes had the X-Wing being a new fighter to replace the Y-Wing, also a fighter at that time.
Even in the rogue squadron books, the elite pilots suffered losses, and not so good squadrons like Wraith Squadron suffered causalities most engagments.
from the humble Tie-Fighter, to the "ouch time" Tie-Defender and beyond, they get the job done and look good doing it.
and plus, tearing the New Republic's Lusankya apart, hardpoint by hardpoint, with fighter/bomber craft is just so... satisfying.
And sexy lol
Oddly enough, the only warship (not counting plot-armored freighters like Ghost and Millenium Falcon) I can think of to get much out of shields on-screen is the StarFortress bomber from The Last Jedi. One of them actually tanks at least 5-6 TIE laser hits, which is way more than the X-wing, Y-wing or ARC-170 can say for themselves. On-screen Y-wings give the impression of being extremely fragile (though that's probably in part because the Malevolence arc was the only time they ever had someone of narrative importance in the cockpit, so they are almost always narrative cannon fodder).
The TIE’s wings I think are the cause for the constant crashing in situations like the inside the Death Star chase in ROTJ.
It’s a damn unique design with that iconic scream of it ion engines along with the chatter of its blasters. I’ve always seen the thing as a zero in space where the X-wing was more of a P51 Mustang or P47 Thunderbolt. It’s really hard to trash any star fighter because just like planes in real life they all have strengths and weaknesses and are designed around a specific roll or doctrine. At least that’s how I look at things.
1st why do some ships look weird like ties and y wings with openings or gaps of da y wings engines or how tie wings are and look like a big 🎯 me sigh for x wings. And would love to resee ww2 with star wars technology and how Dat would end differently there in reality if we replaced zeros and 🇺🇲 🛩 with x wings and ties or at least add them to battle of midway along with our 🇯🇵⚔️🇺🇲 and see wha zero and ties vs x wings and wild cats or whatever 🇺🇲 used. Or maybe pearl harbor but it iz replaced with ties instead of 0s. And you know wha how come we really can't actually build a working ties or x wings already?? We have jets now how iz there not x wings or ties yet especially da cool looking ties and not da huge solar panel ones. Aren't there different types of ties??
The primary problem with the toe fighter is that it can’t pierce plot armor.
So glad to hear someone saying this, the source books always seemed to be wildly inaccurate compared to what we see on screen. The famed proton torpedoes that are so powerful in the X-Wing book series are never seen used to shoot down fighters in on screen material. I also agree that I always thought it lessened the achievements of the rebels that they supposedly were fighting with massively superior equipment.
The TIE is a genius concept with design flaws.
You have to somehow protect all your assets from a group of Rebel fighters that have an extreme amount of leeway in what target they attack and when. If you rely on a small but advanced set of fighters then you have to station them somewhere central since dividing them just makes it easy to overwhelm and pick off. The time it takes for a small advanced set of fighters to get from their location to the attacked site can also be too high letting the Rebels hit it and escape.
The solution? Station dozens of much cheaper fighters at each location. This gives you the guarantee that the Rebels can be engaged before they escape. It also means its easier to frustrate the attack and even stall for time so reinforcements can arrive. Keep in mind that the Rebels are chronically short on pilots and fighters so risking them should not be done lightly, and just the deployment of a large amount of TIE's can force them to retreat except in cases of an extremely vital target (say Scarif or the Death Star).
TIE's arent designed to go toe-to-toe with the X-wing. They were designed to protect an area way too large for specialized troops and still pose enough of a threat to more expensive craft. Which they do.
Its like saying "well with an infantry fighting vehicle these infantry units would have more firepower, more weapon choice, more defense, less weight to carry per person and more mobility, so why wouldnt you give it to all infantry?"
Because if the main duty is guard duty across a massive area with lots of things that can get hit at any time, you want guards at each point rather than a mobile group that will likely get too late to the attacked site.
Just like how the Storntroopers were never meant as front-line combat troops but as terror tactics suppresion and occupying forces, i.e. Garrison troops.
The Sith just used them more than the Army since they trusted the Indoctrinated Goons Stormtroopers more than the Regular People Army.
I've wondered about the TIE visibility. In Star Trek Deep Space Nine, they capture a vessel that has no windows. The commander of the ship wears a kind of visor that translates sensor data to visuals, effectively making the commander able to see through the bulkheads. TIEs could be using that kind of technology.
Also, it's funny how games can give you a sense of the strengths and weaknesses of tactics. I've played X-Wing, and also Chuck Yeager's Air Combat. In the latter, a MIG-15 is better at a close, tight turning dogfight than a F-86. But the F-86 can gain some distance on the MIG, and turn back around to engage. Not sure how historically accurate it was, but definitely not the same aircraft.
In Legends, concussion missiles were really expensive to replace (per missile), but their launcher cost nearly nothing, while proton torpedoes were useful if you expected to fire your warheads a great deal, they are smaller and much cheaper to replace, but because their launcher is an advanced/complex machine in and of itself, it made them expensive to use.
In the movies it wasn't terribly clear if there was much difference between the two practically speaking, we see concussion missiles used vs various targets, and not be significantly worse than a proton torpedo. It also was kinda ignored when they made the A-Wing hold a ton of Concussion Missiles in X-Wing, because they were (in game at least) really good vs enemy fighters, so the A-Wing was the specialist dog fighter of the Rebellion, the Y-Wing was the 'bomber' (if very mini), while the X-Wing could do either role, and was excellent at hit and fade missions due to it's relatively high speed (sublight and light), as well as it's impressive load out of 4 laser cannons and the 2 proton torpedo launchers. No explanation as to how they managed to fit the huge loadout of missiles on the A-Wing, but at least it's only got 2 lasers, why is the X-Wing stuck with only 6 of smaller warheads on a WAY bigger ship? Just weird is all. IIRC you can see what I mean in the old Guide books, Complete Guide to Vehicles and Vessels iirc, the schematics for concussion missiles usually show big honking missiles, proton torpedoes are small cones.
Anyways, this was the explanation why most pirate/smuggler/underworld ships used concussion missiles, the up front cost wasn't as high and ideally you weren't going to use them much, they were there for emergencies and to scare people. In contrast the Rebellion preferred proton torpedoes as they were cheap to replace and they went through a fair number. They could also cripple a capital ship with them, even destroy it potentially, which in some sources concussion missiles weren't as good at.
In Star Wars CCG we had Intruder Missiles, which were specially made munitions that could cause shield generators (iirc) to blow up, neutralizing or destroying a capital ship (depending on how it's shields were placed/how big they were), have you come across those elsewhere, Legends or Canon?
Edit: In Rogue One, I'm pretty sure there was WILDLY more TIEs in the air than there was Rebel fighters, especially in atmosphere where the X-Wings were at a disadvantage vs those slanted TIEs that land on the planet IIRC. By the end, the Rebels had cleared out a heck of a lot of TIEs, but they had lost quite a few ships.
No atmosphere in the cockpit avoids explosive decompression in case the cockpit is breached. When bailing out, no explosive decompression, all your life support goes with you. In the film's no rebel pilot is in a space suit. Even a tiny puncture in the cockpit will kill the pilot and good luck bailing out. I believe that the imperial pilots could survive combat better. In addition each bailed imperial pilot could be easily rescued because they control the battlefield after combat. All rebel pilots become prisoners. TIE pilots also have an order of magnitude better pilots due to better personal and training.
But most of them never see combat, to get any experiance. It's just parades, customs patrols and shooting ducks with massive superiority, if some insugants are found on holiday.
The suits the rebel pilots wore have life support systems - instead of fully enclosing the pilot with an integrated helmet, they relied on the magnetic containment to keep atmosphere in for long enough to get rescued. That is what the electronics they are wearing are for.
When it comes to rate of fire I think something that should be considered is how long it's sustained for, and damage/shot(something that would be more important for X-wings because of often targeting heavier targets)
THANK YOU! I feel sometimes like a TIE apologetic when discussing with people on the internet. *The onscreen performance of TIEs is generally very impressive*. It's the EU that somehow decided they suck. It's also a similar story with Storm Troopers in the OT, though that's another topic. Either way, thank you for taking the time to make this video.
The TIE/LN has it's adherents and is well loved....
By those who make their living in service to the Rebellion
If you were to give me an option between an X-wing and a Tie fighter for a dogfight against the other option I would pick the TIE because it's just so nimble, fast and small framed compared to the X-wing
You two big targets with a tie fighters wings
@@reniorjd English maybe?
@@thescotishclonetrooperecho7773 yo wings would look like a huge 🎯 me sighs to focus on.
@@mistylover7398 this doesn't make any bit more sense than the last reply
@@thescotishclonetrooperecho7773 🤨
I actually really like flying the TIE in XvT. They're really nimble and accelerate well, but the biggest plus is having the cannons front-and-center, like you said.
The evidence from the movies makes a single Star Destroyer look like a whole carrier strike group on its own. The EU decided that it was built to engage capital ships and capital ships only.
Thank you, this was always something that bothered me. A lot of people say that the TIE fighter was an awful vehicle but the first Death Star battle completely disproves this.
The members of Black Squadron manage to kill something in the ballpark of 20 Rebel ships (assuming that every Rebel starship outside of Luke's and Wedge's was destroyed). The TIE pilots manage this even with their only 6 to 9 members (depending on whether you count Vader and his escorts).
Even just counting on screen kills, the TIEs manage to take down more fighters than the X/Y Wings while completely outnumbered, fighting the best pilots the Rebels could field.
What you said about American fighters versus Japanese Zeros is true during the outset of WWII, but the new American designs towards the middle and end of WWII outclassed the Zeros in every way possible.
That's the point though. The new fighters were faster and more maneuverable at higher altitudes. It was more like a TIE vs a T-70 at that point.
@@Imdrunkontea Yes but the Y wings would have been the early ship the Ties would have been good against. Not the X Wings. The Xwings were the equivalent of the new US planes outclassing the Zero in this analogy.
@@Imdrunkontea
No, that isn’t the point. If it were, then the thesis of the video would be how the X-wing was improved to overcome the Tie’s strengths.
That is the problem when you overgeneralize an analogy.
One of the reasons the Japanese turned to kamikaze attacks near the end of WWII was because their fighters were no longer able to go toe-to-toe with the newer American fighters.
In the Star Wars movies, the original ones at least, Ties and X-wings, while each having their particular strengths and weaknesses, are generally on par with each other.
In contrast, in the sequels where newer designs in X-wings appear, they tend to mop the floor with traditional Tie designs.
The more accurate conclusion to draw is if two fighting vehicles are relatively equal, and if one is improved where the other remains the same, then over time one design will start showing decided superiority over the other.
@@taw1967 Aren't the sequel ties highly advanced improvements over regular ties?
And pilots as well. As American tech pulled forward the experienced pilots who were able to survive multiple hits due to the armor on the wildcats had experience and capability on their side towards the end of the war
Judging by the clips from the movies in the video above, the X-Wing cannons are each more powerful than the individual ones of the TIE.
I saw shots where an X-Wing explosively kills a TIE in one to two shots, yet in other shots a TIE is having to hit an X-Wing two to three times with both cannons just to damage it enough to cause a crash. Shields can explain some of the difference effectiveness of the cannons, yet not all.
The only other thing I'd like to mention is that TIEs have windows in their top hatch, which might explain why the TIE pilot looked up when the Falcon arrived during the Trench Run.
What seems to be the case with X-wings surviving being hit in movies is that they were hit in an engine (With shields once again doing nothing), whereas TIE fighter seems to be more densily packed, so if you manage to land a hit on it, it's probably going down. However a hit in X-Wing's main body will equally turn the X-wing into a fireball.
That's what I noticed too. The X-Wings seems to survive a glancing blow against any other part of the body except a direct hit to the rear which seems to be where they get hit a lot.
@@dekoldrick Wedge managed to tank a hit to the rear, although it may have been a fluke or possibly crippling.
The X-Wing is an F-15E Strike Eagle. Multi role-superiority, and expensive to maintain. The TIE tighter is a MiG-21. A put stripped down, inexpensive, interceptor with minimal maintenance requirements.
Good video.
I think the centrally-aligned guns are the biggest boon. I remember multiple instances where, in X-Wing, a TIE would get so close to me that I had to slow down or break off, because my blasters just fired around them...
In the lore misses would get sucked into their solar panels and destroy the Tie so firing around them would still result in a kiII
Laser cannons in Star Wars have a small amount of ability to move, all fighters have their fire converging at a certain adjustable distance, including the x-wing
@@evanhenderson1760 XWA in theory had adjustable in flight convergance and yet I never used it as there are other priorities under fire than tuning some dial like Vader in ANH. :D
@@antonisauren8998 👍
@@marjty6881 How do lasers get "sucked" into anything?
I always wondered how these "space fighters" change direction like an aeroplane yet they are in space?
The Tie Fighter was always meant to be a cost effective glass cannon . I used the same logic on a game called pacific theater of operations 4 game. A naval game where you can rebuild any ship and flyer from world war 2 , and it worked really well. Even though individually my bombers where paper thin , I could manufacture them by the hundreds cheap and they did so much damage that I ended up having less bombers destroyed because they could overwhelm a base quickly with damage.
Nailed it! X wing has plot armor. The X winger should be more of a glass cannon with its hyper drive. Also the zero had a fuel bladder that was very susceptible to casing a fire if hit. I think a neat concept would be One tie leader humans and two or more drone ties slaved to the leader
The real headscratcher in universe is why did the Empire switch to the TIE when they were already using the Z-95, which is almost as fast and cheap, but also brings a missile launcher. Z-95s are also easier to stack, the wings of the TIE fighter are gigantic meaning you can fit two Z-95s for every TIE. This obviously changes when the Interceptor model is introduced but I don't think the Ln was an 'upgrade' to what they already had.
Because all of the Republic stuff had to go, no matter how well it worked. Imperial toys for Imperials.
@@AnchorJG that is a dumb argument to use. the reason for the Z-95 was retired should be that it was obsolete. This is the normal reason fighters get retired. one of the dumbest things in some Starwars fiction is the idea that older fighters are better than newer ones.
Are you sure that Z-95s are easier to store? Sure, they're flatter, but they're also wider and longer.
Beyond that, if I had to explain why they didn't stick with the Z-95, I'd say that almost wasn't good enough. If each fighter was slightly more expensive to make, each pilot took a bit longer to get through academy due to the extra complexity of wing-mounted blaster cannons and missile launchers, and you have to keep replacing the missiles they fire, you could end up with, let's say a 5% increase in cost, and at the scale the Empire deals with, that's a lot of credits. And that's not taking into account the fact that Z-95s are slower, less maneuverable and probably have less effective blaster cannons, so unless the missile launcher can make up for those disadvantages (or if the missile launcher was removed because anything requiring more firepower than blaster cannons can be done by the Star Destroyed that deployed them), your attrition rates will be higher and you might end up needing more of them to patrol the same empire, which would again up the cost.
@@samueldimmock694 regarding the Imperial Navy they used tons of different fighters in the clone wars i don't get why anyone would think the Z-95 was the dominant fighter for the Republic. Seems like the V-wing, ARC-170, Y-wings and V-19s were more common.
Personally, my head cannon is that the Republic used TONs if different fighter models (based on its rapid arming process it needed to get as many fighters as quickly as possible) as a result they had many types in service which was a nightmare to maintain and qualify pilots on.
When the Clone Wars Ended TIE series dominated because they were so cheap to maintain and having standardized systems and controls made training a breeze compared to the late Republic military.
This is also how the rebellion gots its hands on tons of Y-Wings since the Republic/Empire dispossessed its vast stockpile of V-wings, V-19s, Y-wings, Z-95s. Of these only the Y-wings had Hyperdrives as standard and that is why the Rebellion used them so heavily. ARC-170s stayed in service longer with the Empire and as they were withdrawn from service, they were scrapped to prevent them from falling into the hands of the Rebellion.
Not sure where you got the idea that the Z-95 is equal in speed and maneuvering capabilities to the Tie Fighter.
I think the X-Wing vs Tie Fighter series probably had the most logical interpretation of the Z-95 where it really feels like an outdated predecessor to the X-Wing. It has about half the firepower, weaker shields, and isn't as fast as the X-Wing, probably due to an outdated power plant that wouldn't be capable of powering stronger shields and quad lasers all at once.
A Starwars Legends Ace Combat game would be so cool.
Arcade like controls, loads of targets, loads of replayability, and dozens of Fighters from across Legends
This has got to be a response to Film Theory’s video on why the tie fighter is crap
The TIE fighter was a fighter and not a multi role craft like the x-wing. It's like comparing the Spitfire to the Mosquito in WW2, who shot down the most fighters? The Spitfire, because that was what it was designed for. Close range defence of Britain's coast. However the Mosquito was a long range fighter escort that was then equipped for bombing. The Spitfire has the better reputation, but I love the Mosquito.
Imperial pilots had very intense training yet most weren't expected to survive their first tour because of the low quality of their equipment. It was considered quite an accomplishment to survive your one mandatory Tie tour of duty. They were not good.
Seriously if I remenber correctly canon way way back in the 80s was that the TIE fighter was extremely formidable, had excellent equipment, but no shields.
Somehow that has morphed over the intervening years into it was a shitty fighter.
Nope, it was highly manueverable, well armed, and had excellent computers.
just no shields.
@@messagedeleted1922 Not according to West End Games which is where most of the lore comes from. What are you referencing? Remember how useless they were in the Decipher card game? Was never fun going up against the Rebel pilots
Tie pilots had suits for a reason. Ship destroyed, pilot survives and is picked up by the massive fleet they are attached to. Rebel ships had no such chance of ship destruction survival... one and done.
@@Reimerguns I mean this isn't true at all but sounds like something an Imperial instructor would tell his class so right on.
That's from EU material - EckhartsLadder's point in that the movies, Ties were portrayed very differently, and are very much peers of the X-wing, rather than cannon fodder.
I always appreciate people pointing out the strengths of the TIE series. The TIE was made for a specific role and doctrine, and it does the job well. Something I thought of the other day regarding cockpit pressurization. A cockpit full of atmosphere would transfer a lot more shock from external impacts to the pilot, and any puncture of the cockpit armour or canopy would result in explosive decompression. A non-pressurized cockpit would protect the pilot somewhat from both of those dangers. It might not be a huge advantage, but it would be one.
I didn't see this brought up, but in ANH, particularly the trench run.. the TIEs' laser cannons seem capable of moving where the blasts are going.. on screen that shows that the targeting lock computer also helps aim the cannons without needing to aim the ship itself.
Unlike the X-Wings whose cannons doesn't seem to be capable.of the same thing.
They appear to be, as Luke uses a targeting computer to take out a TIE behind Biggs.
The problem is, like Zero, Tie fighters are made for elites. They sacrifice durability for speed and firepower, leaving little room for errors, which is really unfriendly for most of the not so impressive imperial pilots.
Yeah, the TIE Fighter holding its own against rebels fighters mainly because of the Empire having far better pilot training programs,
but it is still a dangerous fighter in the same sense of the real world Japanese A6M Zero
i would argue that the oppisate should be true that the Empire was taking losses due to not having proper training for most of its TIE pilots.
I would say that most of the on-screen TIEs are piloted by among the better pilots available IMO. They are the TIEs belonging to things like Death Squadron, or the vessels chosen for the Emperor's trap.
*Laughs in homing missile*
The TIE has NO countermeasures for any sort of homing tech. I wonder why the rebels didn't use em more!
🤣 The Zero was a flying coffin especially against the P-38, F4U and F6F. No armor, no self sealing fuel tanks.
@@aaronsanborn4291 Remember that those aircraft came later. The initial aircraft that dealt with the Zero were shot down in large numbers. By the time those made it over the Japanese had the Ki-84 which once again was superior to those aircraft mentioned. This along with the Ki-61 and Ki-100. Fortunately for the US, our campaigns to cut off fuel and made it so that there was not enough to both train and execute longer range missions.
2:49 Now I’m throughly drawn in. The analogy of WWII fighters like the P-31 Mustang with its off set 6x .50 cal VS the German Alignment of their Cannon has my Subscribing! Top Notch!
I think it would make sense for the imperial pilot helmet to be like a vr headseat that allows for the pilot to view through the walls and wings of the fighter.
Yooo, that's dope!
@@bennettbush3906 Like eck said it's already common practice in 5th generation fighter jets so there would be no reason for it to be unrealistic for the empire
@@brentonsisemore1122 It's now cannon to me.
The issue with the tie fighters is it’s horrific visibility. Unless they completely overhaul the cockpit, that’s not going away.
Logically, you would think shields would have to have some noticeable effect or else these militaries would not invest and use them. It would be a waste.
What? No it wouldn’t anything that helps, even if it’s only a slight amount that’s would make it 100% worth it. For example if you were a solider in WW2 your knew damn well your steel helmet was most likely not gonna stop most bullets, and there’s a good chance it won’t even stop most shrapnel (especially if you’re British💀). But you’re still gonna put it on anyways right?
It seems to be the difference between a stray laser bolt killing a fighter or a burst. In practice, it does seem to increase survivability, but only marginally.
@@AnthonyBlamthony no.. helmets were worn because of pieces of flying debree from artillery attacks or other explosives
Fire rate and convergence aside. X-wing cannons are meant to pack a punch. It's essentially a cannon made for larger ships like Frigs and Corvettes mounted on a starfighter. This is why X-wings can also do an anti capital ship role.
The main issue with TIEs, in my opinion, is that they're shown to be incapable of intercepting freighters effectively. TIEs have been shown intercepting the Millenium Falcon in the movies and the Ghost in the TV show- and both ships survived with minimal to no damage from TIE fire, while the TIEs lost numerous fighters
I wonder if the Interceptors would have done better.
Tbh TIE Fighters are designed as anti-starfighter primarily. Medium sized ships like the Gozanti carriers and Lancer carriers are more useful for taking down freighters.
Called plot armor
Is there any reason to think this is an issue specific to the Tie, as opposed to snubfighters in general?
@@jrggrop I'm not sure. Some snubfighters like the Missile Boat, B-Wing, or even A-Wing and X-wing can use proton torpedoes to cripple freighters or even medium size ships if hit in the right areas. TIE series would probably need a TIE Bomber, Advanced, or Defender for such warhead capability. (Also the Bomber is not that good either.)
@@johnquach8821 TIE Fighters would be escorting Bombers or Assault Gunboats when attacking a larger target like an illegally armed and shielded ‘freighter’. It was a bit silly that the Falcon was chased by only 4 fighters after escaping Hoth while ISDs were colliding with each other like they were in a three stooges film. At least the Bombers were used to bombard possible hiding places in the asteroid field.
In my head canon I’ve usually placed the weaknesses you see on the empire being cheap and uncaring about training.
With a good pilot the tie fighter is terrifying. It’s main weakness is with taking a hit.
Think you are giving a little to much credit to the WWII Zero. It was a great fighter certainly, but also very limited in many ways. What made the Zero so lethal though was that it had very well trained and experienced pilots who could push the envelope on what the fighter could do. And it didn't hurt that the US pilots were much less experienced. But once Japan lost it's elite pilots and the US pilots got better, the Zero was not nearly the threat it had been in the early part of the war. Things got worse when the Hellcat showed up as it could outperform the Zero in many respects. sm
For what it's worth, I think the basic TIEs generally had a good showing in the Starfighter miniatures game. At least in smaller engagements, outnumbering your enemy by approx. 2:1 made a really big difference. It also did well to establish that while TIEs were not expendable, losing one or two in an engagement was definitely not going to cost you the game, whereas losing an X-wing or other expensive starfighter absolutely could lead to a death spiral.
I head canon that the switch to Tie Fighters by the empire over the older republic fighters was also driven by experiences from the end of the Clone Wars. Expensive clone pilots in expensive high quality fighters were simply being countered if not demolished by cheaply made droid fighters utilizing buzzdroid missiles. The cost-effectiveness ratio towards the end of the war was MASSIVELY in the confederacy's favour to the point that much of the republic fleet was facing issues even getting enough pilots and fighters to even fill their venators and victories.
So things had to change as battlecarriers like the venator aren't too helpful if at best they are using half a compliment of fighters, and those fighters are always taking heavy losses from one tenth the cost in droids. So high quality starfighters, at the time and compounded by other issues like clones and technology, were simply being beaten by cheaper cost effective fighters.
So the Empire switched to cheaper more cost effective fighters, pilots, and more effective fleets of imperials that relied more on their turbolasers then their compliment craft. All to beat a foe that they had already beaten in the last war..... A classic!
"No shields, all guts" is the tie fighter pilot motto lol
Umm, ACKCHYUALLY the Zero wasn’t especially flimsy compared to the contemporary P40 and Wildcat, and the best allied tactic was really boom-and-zoom diving ambushes. They avoided dogfights altogether, and most of the aces operated that way. (Am need🤓🤪🙃
while it is correct that in terms of just pure build and materials, the A6M was not significantly less durable than its contemporaries, its biggest weakness was its lack of self-sealing fuel tanks to save weight and thus improve speed and maneuverability. this meant that while on paper, a zero could match a wildcat in terms of durability, in practice any hit to its fuel tanks would almost certainly lead to an uncontrollable fireball and the complete loss of the aircraft and pilot
@@hbstudios Also cockpit armor. Not something the Zero had, because it would add weight that would shorten their range. And the Zero was all about range and maneuverability.
The emphasis on range and maneuverability makes it kinda hilarious when the Zero got the A6M3 Model 32 that lost some turn rate and range in exchange for a bit more speed and roll rate... just in time to need to fly down the length of the Solomons on a daily basis where the decreased range going from the A6M2 Model 21 to the A6M3 Model 32 was very noticeable.
ME:NO... THATS NOT TRUE, THATS IMPOSSIBLE
EckhartsLadder: search your feelings you know it to be true
Growing up I always thought TIEs were pretty good just going off the movies because shields only seem to matter if the plot needs it.
"Oh x-wings have shields" but they seem to be shot down just as easily as TIEs on screen.
And this goes double for Y-Wings and ARC-170s in the movies because for all their supposed strong shields and armor they get blown up by TIEs and Tri Fighters/Vulture Droids really freaking easy.
The movies showed the ties as being less maneuverable than cargo ships like the YT-1300. I don't care how much you soup up a ship like that's engines it shouldn't have handled better in the Astroid belt than the Tie Fighters
have you watched the first Star wars movie idiot? it is clearly shown the tie fighter is faster more manoverable than x wings and the empire didnt deploy swarms of fighters but simply an equal amount and they reduce the rebel force to 3 ships from 30 attacking
I think in the long run, the Empire should've employed a standard fighter with shields and more armor. Not every Imperial was an extremely talented pilot, and would've benefitted more from an easier to handle fighter. If the Empire had a 100% gurantee that every pilot would be a dogfighting champion the TIE Fighter/Interceptor would've been the most feared and respected ever.
This video is sponsored by Emperor Palpatine
Biggest issue with TIE was visibility, bulky life support helmet with tiny view ports plus stupid front only hexagonal window with a bunch of useless bars through it for some reason make it really hard to see.
When I was a kid, I thought they're called TIE Fighter because it looked like a bow tie.
That's exactly where the name came from out-of-universe
That's what George Lucas thought when he was naming it
I know this video focuses on what we see in the movies but as a guy who played a whole lot of Rogue Squadron back in the days of the N64 and GameCube I think I have something valuable to add here. The TIE fighter is a much easier target to hit because of its large cross section during a turn. Combine that with a lack of shields and it's a one hit kill. Thinking back I have taken many many TIE fighters and Interceptors down during a turn because there's just more surface area to land laser blasts.
In the Rogue Squadron book series, they openly admit the Tie Fighter was faster, more maneuverable, and more numerous than the X-Wing. The only thing that gave the X-Wing an advantage was it's shields, and superior pilots.
And we saw on film the best of the best of the Rebels; those who survived so long since the Empire founding, as well as force users. Joe Tie Pilot did quite well overall.
@@pauldunecat We saw on film the best of the best of the TIE pilots as well. We saw the elite Death Squadron during the last two movies and we saw Black Squadron in A New Hope. Only the cream of the crop served with either. The best of the best that the universe had in terms of TIE pilots
Great video. FYI, if you go back and play Tie-Fighter you can cycle through viewports in the Tie cockpit. I think there were glass panels above and behind the pilot.
Note: The WW2 fighters with the guns widely spaced [and the convergence issue] were not the only fighter aircraft. The P38, P61, and DeHavilland Mosquito are examples of aircraft that didn't have to worry about convergence because the guns were all clustered around the centerline of the aircraft, like TIE/ln fighters
I like the TIE fighter but I like the TIE interceptor better...that's one sexy piece I'd like to fly.
6:25 I would heavily disagree with that statement, sure there were casualties but USA didn't really use the way of attrition to counter zeros like you say, sure USA did have the numbers advantage but unlike IJA/IJN USA actually cared fro their soldiers lives so they focused more in individual pilot protection with armor plates in the strategic locations of their planes to reduce the chance pilot is killed out right when being shot while also researching a reasonable answer to zeros and finding out their respective weaknesses, further more USA pilots had a set term in their service live through that and you got to go home and train the new pilots and pass vital knowledge to new pilots, something the IJA/IJN never did, they literally threw away experienced pilots because dying in combat was considered honorable but that made their entire air force and pilot quality weaker than that of USA
Agree. In beginings USA had slower and much more armored fighters, nice paralel X wing to Tie ... but they use their stenght - more machine guns and armor - so they atack dircetly agains zero and overshoot them. If zero gets behind them, it was nearly end to them.
IJA/IJN did care about their pilots.
They didn't have the resources to "pamper" them as much as USAF/USN, that's all.
@@IKsauce That's just not true at all, just look at the kamikaze pilots, literally nobody sane who would value their soldiers lives and experience would ever use such tactics and spends their soldiers lives more freely than bullets
@@PaperiLiidokki they dont waste experienced pilots. Most kamikaze, late im war have only basic fly training not trained pilota
@@PaperiLiidokkiGiven USN's superiority, kamikaze tactics were far more economic in term of human losses than any conventional attack.
Kamikaze pilots were not sent to die for nothing, there were tactics involved.
Coming back because you couldn't find your target wasn't also punished, provided it didn't happen too often.
Kamikaze were nowhere as valued as experienced pilots, but they weren't used as consumables either.
The Battle of Yavin in ANH also suggests that TIEs are stealth fighters. The sensor suites of rebel fighters couldn't even detect the TIEs, they only knew of them when Yavin base detected a new set of signals.
Loved this video and your arguments.
I always thought of the "TIE" as an analog for the Japanese "Zero" from WW2. Fast, agile and the best in class for the time it was designed in. The X-Wing is more of an American "Hellcat" or a "Corsair": newer, heavier and designed to beat the "TIE".
Should finished the video and/or read the comments. My point was made several times before I posted. Well, it's good for the algorithm. 😄
As someone who plays Squadrons in VR, I definitely agree the tie fighter screams out as needing an AR HUD similar to the f35. You should get some sort of red/green wireframe or something of ships outside your viewport.
This feels like a return to classic Eckhartsladder videos.
The TIE is a fairly practical design for an Empire that has an (in theory) almost bottomless supply of personnel. It's an economical choice that conforms to the Tarkin doctrine. Like most critics I definitely agree that it's biggest hang up is its lack of a shield. Surviving an encounter is a great teacher and you would probably see more TIE Ace's to counter the Alliances tougher ships and likely more experienced fighter pilots. The centralized gun locations, high speed and maneuverability are great selling points though. Really when looked at through the lense of a WW2 Era pilot (since SW ships are kinda analogous to them) TIEs aren't bad. They didn't have shields and their armor plates were usually good enough for stopping little else but small arms fire and maybe some 12 to 13mm sized munitions. I'm sure a Zero, BF 109, Spitfire or a Hellcat pilot of the day would have loved a magical shield too.
I always felt the TIE was like A6M Zero.
No particulary well protected, but was quite fast and a great turn fighter
A counter to the shield point: The x-wings were directed to switch shields to "double front" before passing through the Death Stars shield in IV. This would've killed their shields. If we use what we know about the x-wing games of the 90s. You have to lose some performance (engines) or offense (lasers) to recharge them. Since they were constantly being harassed by Ties or taking out laser batteries to clear a path for the Y-wings, they couldn't put much into recharging their shields so they were just as defenseless as the Ties they were facing.
A little note regarding the statements about how the US pilots dealt with the Zero: It wasn't ENTIRELY tactics and pilot attrition - we DID roll out a superior plane in 1943. The Grumman F6F Hellcat was able to beat the Zero in nearly every area, and it's only shortcomings to the Zero were too insignificant to effect the outcome of a dogfight between identically trained/experienced pilots.
Fun history fact: The tactics developed for fighting Zeroes were developed thank to the Japanese leaving a Zero nearly undamaged on Alaska's Akutan Island. It was patched up and extensively flight tested to find it's flaws. It did not have an impact on the Hellcat's development(the Hellcat had its first flight a few weeks before the Akutan Zero was even found, and it was another two months before the repaired Zero's first test flight), but it certainly helped maximize our use of it.
Well even before the Hellcat and the Corsair, American aircraft were able to outrun Japanese fighters (unless you were the poor smuck in a P-400 or Brewster Buffalo) with standard tactics for P-40 and F4F pilots being to dive away to gain distance then either flee or climb to re-engage from an advantageous position. So yeah even in the early war, the American had planes that were arguably just as good but just had advantages in other areas. Now In Star Wars, that wouldn't be possible, but the X-Wing's does "hit and run" tactics does translate to the American planes employed in the early war.
@@thehighground7732 Very true, but it really still feels to me like the X-Wing is the F6F of the Star Wars universe. The F4F and P40 are more along the lines of what they had before then - the equipment that just happened to be available to hold the line.
It doesn't invalidate the parallel to the tactics, as even after the F6F came online hit and run was a popular tactic because, well, it WORKED. Even when the more experienced Japanese aviators became familiar with the Hellcat's abilities, the US pilot would start doing hit and run dives just to bait Japanese pilots into the guns of another group of planes.
But the ability to stand toe to toe in every aspect of a dogfight is what sets the F6F Hellcat apart from it's predecessors. And, when you really get down to it, same with the X-Wing(even after Disney retconned the A-Wing into coming first).
@@FormulaFox I think the X-wing is more akin to the P-38 Lightning than anything else, with the hyperdrive giving it the same abilities as the Lightning's operational range and ground attack armament of the P-38 after the P-38 F being able to carry ludicruous amounts of armament when compared to it's contemporaries. In terms of how the aircraft operated, the P-38 is the aircraft most akin to really any Rebel ship, but the X-wing in particular as it was designed as a long range escort fighter which could recon and attack ground targets, similar to the ARC 170 and X-wing. It wasn't particularly good at manovering, but it was still manoverable enough to suprise even the Japanese fighters at times.
@@thehighground7732 I would actually equate the P-38 more to the Y-Wing - the Y-Wing was meant for a more similar role to that P-38's intended use, and like P-38 is a multi-crew plane. I would also say the P-61 draws a good comparison to the Y-Wing for similar reasons. But when we expand to the whole war rather than just the Pacific Theater, the X-Wing actually seems to hold more in common with the P-51 Mustang than anything else.
The P-51 was very capable of ground attack engagement, and while unlike the X-Wing it was rarely used for it(at least until the closing days of the European war when the Luftwaffe could barely get off the ground), neither were really built specifically to do it - it's just something they happened to be capable of. What's more, both were built with the idea of replacing a very specific predecessor and are in many ways based on said predecessor despite being quite different - the Z-95 for the X-Wing, and the P-40 for the P-51. They also both greatly turned things around for their side, with the P-51 allowing for a drastic reduction in bomber losses.
Funnily enough, though, for all our analysis of this, none of the planes we've spoken of were George Lucas' ACTUAL inspiration for the X-Wing. His inspiration for it was the Supermarine Spitfire.
Still, it's fun to draw these parallels and debate what craft various Star Wars fighters more closely line up with.
@@FormulaFox Yeah, the Mustang is probably the best comparison with how it was actually used in the war, although it is funny that the Spitfire is what inspired the X-Wing, considering it was a purebred interceptor, with middling range and passable speed but good manoverability.
Honestly having a sealed flight suit is an incredible addition. No explosive decompression if the integrity of the hull or windows are compromised.