Christopher Hitchens Does science make belief in God obsolete
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 21 дек 2011
- To say that there is little "scientific" evidence for the last proposition is to invite a laugh. There is no evidence for it, period. And if by some strenuous and improbable revelation there was to be any evidence, it would only argue that the creator or designer of all things was either (a) very laborious, roundabout, tinkering, and incompetent and/or (b) extremely capricious and callous, and even cruel. It will not do to say, in reply to this, that the lord moves in mysterious ways. Those who dare to claim to be his understudies and votaries and interpreters must either accept the cruelty and the chaos or disown it: they cannot pick and choose between the warmly benign and the frigidly indifferent. Nor can the religious claim to be in possession of secret sources of information that are denied to the rest of us. That claim was, once, the prerogative of the Pope and the witch doctor, but now it's gone. This is as much as to say that reason and logic reject god, which (without being conclusive) would be a fairly close approach to a scientific rebuttal. It would also be quite near to saying something that lies just outside the scope of this essay, which is that morality shudders at the idea of god, as well.
Religion, remember, is theism not deism. Faith cannot rest itself on the argument that there might or might not be a prime mover. Faith must believe in answered prayers, divinely ordained morality, heavenly warrant for circumcision, the occurrence of miracles or what you will. Physics and chemistry and biology and paleontology and archeology have, at a minimum, given us explanations for what used to be mysterious, and furnished us with hypotheses that are at least as good as, or very much better than, the ones offered by any believers in other and inexplicable dimensions.
This is the only time I've watched Hitchens "debate" someone that I didn't want to choke the other person.
I agree, but I couldn't help but feel that it was a tactic to sound more "reasonable".
Who is that guy?
His discussion with Tim Rutten was as civil and even handed.
@@phlapjaxx2078 I'll give it a listen.
@@CROsigliere Msgr. Lorenzo Albacete (January 7, 1941 - October 24, 2014) was a Puerto Rican theologian, Roman Catholic priest, scientist and author.
Jesus, is someone shaking a box full of ceramic plates in the background?
Yes indeed Jesus, Maria and Jose they all work in the kitchen.
FatDenimDan hahahahahaha
It's been 4 years, has Jesus answered you?
Alcibiades most underrated comment of all time 😂
It's the last supper
I've watched 00's of Hitchens videos and this is one of my favs. Have to say that if all priests were like this one, Christianity would be a VERY different place from what it is now...
Professor Christopher Hitchens has provided me with more consolation, wit, and knowledge through his debates, Hitch-slaps, books and videos than any Church, priest or religious nut ever did.
Long live the brilliant mind and thoughts of History's greatest orator in my opinion, the one and only Hitch, I sorely miss this genuine man, love him and miss him dearly.
Tis shot of JWB 🥃 dedicated to Hitch’s memory.
@Greg Brown I say Awomen.
Well worded my friend. Agreed.
More than all of them combined
This is my experience also
We all miss him, but Hitchens was not a Professor. A professor has a tenured position at a university.
"If we knew then what we know now, would we ever have created religion?"
- Christopher Hitchens
Yes. To con delusional folk.
"My ancestors worshipped coconuts for god's sakes"!
Best. Priest. Ever.
Probably the funniest line I've heard from a priest.
The priest has a view of looking at religion and faith that I find very sympathetic. He's not a bible thumper claiming it's all true because it says so in the bible, but acknowledges that religions are man made and that faith is the main thing. But it also reinforces my stance that it's a personal thing, and should be practiced in the comfort of your own home or place of worship, and kept out of the public arena.
Hey man, Ive had hundreds of coconut related products that have delivered far more consistently than any religion ever has. Ill pray to a coconut
@@BroNumsi I'm a Hitchens fan and an athiest. I liked the priest a lot.
@@BroNumsi Your statement is the most sensible I've heard in a long time. Fundamentalists are Bullies & Atheists are Egotistical. The truth may be somewhere in the middle, but after all, it's a very personal experience. Thank you for sharing ideas.
Such a polite man. He was honest and resigned to the fact that he cannot disprove Hitchens view without contradicting himself.
I have to admit, this is one of the most interesting and balanced debate I've ever seen and followed.
Thumbs up for Hitchens, but the clergy member gained my respect too.
One of Hitchens more respectable opponents. This was a great interaction.
I enjoyed this and the dishes are done about eight minutes into this discussion.
😂😂😂
to update upton sinclair: "it is still bloody damn difficult, even after he concedes every point, to get a priest to renounce religion, when his salary depends upon his not renouncing it."
aarrgghh
I like to suggest that you read Khalil Gibran’s “ Satan “ which absolutely supports your comment.
so basically the priest argument is he agree with hitchens but still follows it because it "gets him through life day to day and how he feels about the world" hell if only every religious person admited that is the only reason anyone can hold onto it once they become more scientifically literate
More theists should be like that guy.
I'm completely blown away by how chill he is.
This priest is on the brink of leaving religion. He still cannot depart from the ludicrous fables of the Bible solely because of tradition.
As an atheist I like this Monsignor, he is saying regardless of the new discoveries of science, and even though miracles may not be true the only thing to cling to as a Christian is that he believes in the power of love, we must love one another. I accept that on faith as well.
Love is an universal, a corollary of one of the basic forces that produced the universe. Attraction and Repulsion.
You have two 1st names. Can't trust you
@@dingdong7338 You utter this with the name of ‘ding dong’? 😂
Hitch gave himself a "home pour" in that glass of wine..it's almost spilling over the top haha! Love ya Hitch!
"Science is a ladder and scientists are the steps. We might never reach the top but the view keeps getting better every step of the way." XMC
Meanwhile theists are scurrying on the ground attacking the existence of the ladder.
Because of debates like this Hitchens is my hero.
I really like this priest. He seems like a cool dude :)
If caught speaking this way 300 years ago, he would be burned alive by his own kind.
MrSidney9 imagine what would have happened to Chris ;)
Kirk Bushell They'd probably put him on Judas Cradle.
@@MrSidney9 That would depend on what part of the world he would live. South East Asia was pretty brutal for people like him 300 years ago, ask the Jesuits.
To my surprise, I find myself saying I like this priest.
The0Gene Out of all the debates and discussions between atheists and Christians I've seen, I can say with confidence that Catholics are the most reasonable, scientific wise.
Evan Scott Lol. Especially with circumcision, right?
I find Buddhism to be reasonable. You might appreciate the Carl Saigon's interview of the Dali Lama.
I was thinking the same thing, priests with two watches are always fun to banter with, this is almost a natural law.
link?
Even after the priest has seen through it all, many stay because, as is often said, “What else am I to do? After all, I am too old to dig, and too proud to beg.” As for me, I left. (Thank you to Christopher Hitchens, for the part he played in freeing me.)
how many fucking dishes do you need to angrily organize?
What's up with that, lol! it's kind of rude, they must be able to hear that clatter as clearly as we can!
This priest is very different from the other theists I've seen debate atheists . This man is highly respectable . He knows that religion is wrong. If he truly believed his faith, he would be disagreeing with Hitchens on everything with a massive psycho smile on his face like the other theists do. At best he's a Deist .
That said
Hitchens was as always AWESOME!
I'm more confused than the Hitch was, because i don't have the desire to punch this priest in the face, most unusual.
Jen Garlinge right?
The priest dude, for all intents and purposes, is an atheist. He can't admit it, probably for a number of reasons. 1. His age. 2. He's been brainwashed since he was a child, so he's scared. 3. His livelihood is dependent on his religious facade. Whatever the reason, he's either an atheist or he's created his own religion. His religion seems to only fill in the gaps for the questions that he doesn't understand or doesn't have answers to. If you listen to him closely, he never really says anything of substance, and when anything of substance is said by Christopher, he agrees with it. It seems like the priest guy's religion is all about emotion. That's cool, because I get the feeling that it's less threatening than the bible thumper who wants to teach god in science class or the muslim who wants to blow people up. It's still just as silly but at least it's less threatening.
Yep... he's a deist at best. I think he believes that there IS a god, but agrees that most, if not all religion is rubbish. Probably the easiest "debate" Hitch ever had!
Christopher Hitchens is always on point of course, but man he was so good in this particilar debate. Both of them where a pleasure to listen too, which made this really enjoyable to watch. I miss this man.. The world could use a Hitchens today. RIP my brother.
Hitch was never taken in by the modern genial response of the religious. They have had to put away the thumbscrews and hot irons and resort to laughter when confronted with the shattering truth about their delusions. If you want to know how they behave when in power just look at the Islamic countries.
And look at republican Christians. They want to force their insane beliefs on everyone. They want to turn the US into a theocracy. They want all of god’s 613 to be enforced. If republicans had their way there would be daily public stonings on ever town square in the country. Republicans are far more dangerous and deadly than thousands of Al Qaedas, Talibans or ISISes.
Don't think the priest even had a chance, but he didn't seem to even want one. Almost on Hitchens side more than he was his own.
***** I agree, modern religious folk try to downplay religion to make it more desirable. But I think something is awfully cowardice about not being fully convicted in your assertions and beliefs.
But I also suppose those kinds of people are better than those that do believe the bible word for word - as they're the ones who are dangerous.
I know this is an old post. But I wouldn't say the priest is on Hitchens' side.. He is clearly conflicted as any man of intellect should be at the very least. He is conflicted. He is searching for answers not in his book of choice.
Great point: would we believe all these religious fairytales if the scientific knowledge had come first?
Tnere was always scientific knowledge.
Not in the Bible.
uncleanunicorn The Bible was never intended to be a science book. But despite accusations, it makes no false statements about the earth.
Myles Schachter Except in every passage where it describes the natural world.
uncleanunicorn zar athustra The Bible only has falsehoods in the minds of Godless idiots like little Dick Dawkins and his mind numbed disciples.
these 2 men are the reason I'm an Atheist, never had i heard of two gentle battle ideas in such a way,especially Monsignor, i assume he was a Diocesan (i normally don't hear Jesuits sound like him)
The priest's name is Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete who is NOT a Jesuit but a diocesan priest who was (he passed away a little over a year ago) a member of the Catholic movement Communion and Liberation. I knew him personally and anyone interested should look him up, Communion and Liberation, or can contact me for more info.
Vitaliy K I'm interested in him. Did he author any books?
i miss the hitch.
I don't miss the fucking dishwasher that was on shift that night.
It is about time there is a Christian who makes no false claims and sees that all that matters to him is the love that is taught. I think he too does not believe in what has been sold as religion, but he does believe in goodness and love. A good man. Hitchens treated him so well because he deserved it.
If we went back in time and erased all of human history. When we press play and allow the experiment to run again, Religion would turn out very different.
The science textbooks would end up exactly the same.
In my early days as a reporter/journalist I ran into a lot of people who said, "Let's do lunch. You can interview me then." I learned to refuse.Restaurants or meeting rooms full of dishes are terrible places to work. First off, the microphone picked up the background noise and ruined the interview and, second, I didn't get to eat anyway, being busy with the interview.
Clearly, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is angry at Hitchens and the priest for not being given the equal attention She deserves. She's the one causing all the clanking of dishes, because the audience just ate a dinner of Her.
Was this debate conducted in a kitchen? So many clinking plates and cutlery...
mics pick up a lot of sound and I'm guessing this even was non-profit or low profit so that they couldn't hire sound engineers to clean it up.
Hahaha
These modern Jesuit's are confounding. The Monsignor isn't the only Catholic I've heard speak like an Atheist, only to later contradict himself by then attesting to the compulsory belief in the Nazarene. If caught speaking this way two hundred years ago, the Monsignor would be burned alive by his church, convicted by a similar looking man in Holy Orders, abiding by an unalterable doctrine. The endless apologies an propitiation's owed by the Monsignor's church to its victims is hardly fathomable, and to be associated with it is contemptible.
the rcc doesnt burn people alive. sorry bub youre confusing them with protestant puritans and "religious" oriented government officials
mike Catholics in Africa and the SouthEast Pacific have within the last decade. Now, the RCC burned people by the thousands over a five hundred year time span. Have you never heard of the albigensian or the cathars, just to name a few groups ordered to be destroyed by RC Popes? You really should educate yourself, otherwise you just sound like an ignorant fool.
yeah, it feels rather insidious...like they're trying to sound like they're making the case for faith into an appeal for reason in a sleight of hand kind of way.
Cool priest witha very honest albeit deluded faith but still very honest.
I like him and i think Hitch liked him!!
I thought the Monsignor may rip his dog collar off and go and sit next to Hitch. Outstanding
Great clip! That Monsignore is so nice and friendly (and smooth), and so at peace with all the cognitive dissonances of religion, he gave us some of the mildest Hitch-moments I have ever seen. Hitchens just mildly recites his standard arguments and phrases, simply because that priest gives everyone (including Hitch) such a warm feeling in the tummy and triggers nothing. Pure ASMR....
I like the monsignor here for his flat-out honesty and refusal to dilute the issues by obfuscation. He not only seeks agreement with Hitchens but explains why and at the same time presents a justification for his own faith. Hitchens is a giant and rightly admired for his crushing the absurdity of religion yet the monsignor takes Hitchens to deeper waters. Well used to batting aside the more shallow arguments for faith, I sense Hitchens was fighting on different terrain here.
The christian God is really a tribal god who is mostly concerned with guiding and protecting a few hebrew tribes, or at best with saving a minority of Earth humans from a sin he has himself embedded into man. What a farce.
+JenkPac Shakur Are you a troll or an idiot? Let's have a vote!
I'm both. Why, what's wrong with that?
What a refreshing sight; a modest religious person.
Brilliant debate!!
Empathy - Good father - is much more than Science!
I am from St Joseph oratory of Montreal. I love you Father
We are STARDUST and will return to DUST.
Blessings from the Philippine community in Thailand - The land of Buddha!
Yet another instance of Hitchens being presented with an open door to push against. The priest's position is this: that he believes in Christ but that the only reasons that he's sure about why he does have to do with the psychological. Thus we have another agnostic priest.
I really like this old guy! Oh, and love Hitch, which goes without saying:)
I agree. I'm a huge fan of Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) and follow many of his works. That written, I have to give the Priest credit. He's one of the few Christian I heard who seems to also practice "common sense". I like him. :) Does any one know his name?
Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete.
BRAVO.... a very educated conversation without the bullshit
The priest has a very refreshing point of view. He seems to accept that religion makes no logical sense but equating it to love that often is devoid of logic is clever. I think he has (if there can be such a thing) a healthy relationship with his religion where he places it into context, rather than attempting to force it upon others or using it as a literal source.
Rest in peace Monsignor Albacete. You will be missed my friend!
For some reason, I think it would be interesting to hear that Monsignor debate WHC... Probably one of the most rational religous people I have seen having a discussion with Hitchens.
What a lovely person,a true holy man cares about the human race & doesn't make our personal beliefs ,a fight!
What a great debate,by both parties.
I agree with the guy with the plates in the background, he made some good points.
We can walk our road together if our goals are all the same.We can run alone and free if we persue a different aim.Let the truth of love be lighted.Let the love of truth shine clear.Sensibility, armed with sense and LibertyWith a single mind United In a simple, perfect, sphere.Neil Peart
Tim Minchins rant on storm, you are applauded my friend :).
Why, in the face of all the evidence against it, and in the absence of any evidence for it, is it that you believe? Whenever it comes to this decisive point of the conversation, this erudite, polite, articulate, humane and allaround likeable gentleman has nothing more to offer than tapdancing.
Science will always be solid in its explanation religion will always be abstract in its argument
If only all believers were so open-minded and intelligent as this charming priest.
Lol. That guys face is like so serious and funny at the same time at 1:05
I thought I'd scoured all of YT Land for Hitchclips. How have I never seen this? Great clip but the cutlery is annoying, to say the least.
A
One of most intelligent religious person I have ever heard. Belief comes to you by some revaluation.
I am still waiting.
That priest is awesome. I love how he talks, I love the analogy of the woman you fell in love with and can't help yourself and I love his humour and point of view in general. He seems like he'd be a great guy to have a few drinks with some evening... and I came here to listen to Hitchens, who knew?
A remarkable and disarmingly reasonable opponent for Hitch which created a great debate.
I did not catch the priest's (monseigneur?) name or affiliation, but I'd guess by his comments he is a Jesuit. Of all the sects of Catholicism, that is the most "lenient" with interpretation of the Bible and articles of faith.
Hitchens was always the master of any conversation, but it would be fun to sit with either one of them over a beer.
+JACKnJESUS Agreed, I would give anything to here such a conversation.
His name was monsignor Lorenzo Albacete.
:-)
+JACKnJESUS I think they both drink Johnny Walker. ;)
Seeing the years tick by on these videos makes me look and try to measure my philosophical growth. I'll forever pale when compared, but I hope to rise enough to at least remind people of this man.
Well I appologize. It is good to meet someone in the trenches. May God richly Bless you. I have Been on the front lines straight for over a week and sometimes it does get weary We need encourgement from one a norther
If all priests were like him I don't think we would be having this battle
Caterers of the world: Tables should be cleared prior to and not during conversations.
What makes sense in my life…that’s all he needed to say he could never debate CH, he knew it and he simply stated that he made his own choice and he was comfortable with that choice, and CH had made his own perspective clear. The Monsignor did not make the mistake of arguing with Hitch, he realised he was out of his depth and discretion is always the better part….
this is the first priest who I have seen who shows respect for others who do not believe in fantasy gods etc !
God's complete silence make belief in him obsolete
If the priests that taught me when I was young were anything like Monsignor Albacete I might have never become an atheist. I have much respect for him and any other who's willing to question their religious doctrine.
I just love the way he says "a great lizard"
I think because it's a pleasant debate. Points are made and respected :)
I was thinking the same thing! This might be the first video I've seen with 0 dislikes, lol.
Thomas Moore would have burned this priest.
I like him. Clearly, he feels his belief through his emotions and doesn't understand. He faces himself.
There are few decent men in the clergy. He is one. Respect.
It's so incredibly interesting to watch as he clearly has shifted the burdon of proof on to science. As we can observe the religious leader says that he is an agnostic theist and that he has a strong positive feeling he can't explain when beliving a god exists. He needs scientific proof that can explain exactly the feeling that he has, and if so, he'll be an atheist.
This was a delightful dialectic. I think Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete is one of the few clerics that Hitchens probably likes.
Who's the genius thinking it was a 'good idea' placing a microphone next to every plate in the room.....?
Some people are able to transcend who or how they were born as. Its one of the most basic principles under which a humanist must operate. Sure there are many who cannot, and watching most of Hitchens debates is a depressing reminder of how stubborn most people are. But this particular conversation was incredibly refreshing if only for the fact that the guy on the other side was talking a lot of sense. The gears are turning and that's what counts the most.
A genius(and straightforward mind) sadly missed, but if one thing, for all the people that may stumble upon his words and see the truth of what he was trying to let you know, then i applaud the man for a life well spent.
Where can I find the whole thing?
Thanks.
why do people ask 'then why are we here?' we don't have a reason to be here, and we don't have to either. the thing to realise it that we ARE here, not because we were sent here, but because the earth gave birth to life all that time ago.. we don't need a reason to be here, the argument that we're for something is unreasoned.
What's this video from? Or like, when recorded? Do you know, or have any of that information?
This really shows CH's marvelous sense of humor.
great ending!
If people of faith all maintained a logical head (as this Monsignor seems to do) there would be far fewer problems in the world. He had a very admirable humility and honesty that very few religious figures seem to be able to muster in the face of today's knowledge and evidence.
Ya. I was thinking the same thing.
Does someone has the link to the full debate?
I hear someone printing a Chinese phone book in the back ground..... Bazinga!!!! Haha
My grandfather was a Methodist minister for almost all his life. As an old man on his deathbed he confided to my grandmother that he finally realised he's been 'promoting nonsense'. He remembered his teachers' relentless indoctrination and his feelings of terror at what may happen (come to pass...) should he become bound for hell and its eternal torment. When my mother told me this I found it very sad, and in particular, ironic, that he was only able to think clearly and experience true lucidity when at such a late stage of life
No I'm saying i doubt i ever would have begun to question my faith.
One of the few discussions with Hitchens where you have a believer who's also an intellectual and scientist...and all you get on the comments is about 10 effing pages about marihuana! So thank you for your sensible comment Joe! Regarding the Monsignor's final words, I had to listen twice, but he starts the sentence with "but the moment I cannot [etc.]...", so his "loss of faith" it's only transient and conditional. Still a very honest man.
is there a full version of this somewhere? i was always a hitchens fan, and albacete intrigues me! its weird not having 2 sides just shout lol
The Monsignor was excellent. I was not at all surprised by his position--the Catholic church seems to have adopted the scientific view on the universe, and pushed God back into an abstraction that render the whole faith more of a spirituality than a dogmatic religion--but I was surprised at his humor and his wit.
However, he left us with one quite haunting passage: "I cannot live up to that love; it goes away, and I am abandoned to a world of miracles which in fact produce no certainty."
Looks like Hitchens made the priest a believer.
Gregory Torchia Lolwut?
“Preach the gospel at all cost, if necessary
use words.”
St Francis
'If necessary use words'. We've seen that with the 8+ Crusades that resulted in the death of millions...
I'd like to give a big thank you to whoever decided to start doing the dishes the moment the camera turned on