Hi Jon, Why would you have a negative change on one axis (Y) and a positive change on the other axis (X), with a round bar I would have thought the expansion/contraction would have been the same on both axis ?
Hi Martyn, thanks for the comment and the excellent question. I am in danger of writing a thesis here lol. This is a hugely complex topic but in summary, I am dealing with a metal Airfix kit where between the table and the spindle there are 10's of interfaces all with their own inaccuracies (out of squareness, parallel etc) and a mix of materials with different coefficients. The final movement at the spindle nose will depend on the combination of all of these variables and basically 'which inaccurate interface wins the fight'. I hope that makes sense as a summary, very very complex which is why I kept this video at a really high level otherwise it would have run for hours🤣🤣🤣. I will pin your comment as it really is an excellent question and your inquisitiveness pleases me, I thought it was only me sad enough to get excited about this stuff!
@@MaXpeedingRods_Coop Hi, thanks very much for reaching out. At the moment I don't really want to go down the sponsorship route, as I believe that will detract from the purpose of the channel. If I change my thinking in the future, I will be in touch. Cheers, Jon
Interesting video Jon. A more common way to get bitten on this is workpiece heating due to cutting, particularly on lathes where you might experience 50 to 70 degree deltas. In terms of lathe work, most people know about diametric changes, but tend to ignore the associated length changes, this can blow axial dimensions quite easily. Guilty as charged :)
Hi Wibbly wobbly, thanks for the comment. Yup, bang on. I should have mentioned this in the video. I have covered this in previous tips videos etc, but I wanted to split the two things out otherwise it becomes a monster of a topic to try and cover. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop Hi Jon. This was my thought as well. A good case for flood coolant, but most small hobby lathes don't have that. A very complex subject as you have said. Cheers rob
Heck yeah it does. Great Video Jon! Hard to get a change in your shop as you said. For me I get 0c at the min in the winter and then 47++c during the summer with over night lows changing I guess 15c or so. 115 and then 88 or so bananas early in the morning in the summer. If you needed me to make you a precise part in the summer I would have to offset the dims for it to be on size at your shop. Another thing can be when you were clocking the part in the machine, both the part and the machine change size..so as the machine contracts so does the part. the scales have some wiggle room in the stability of the glass being glued in with a silicone adhesive so it doesn't rip the glass apart when the holder changes size.
Hi, thanks for the comment. 100% on everything you say! Our range is -18C to +30 at worst so similar. I could bang on for ages on this topic, soak times, thermal gradients etc etc but I think I would bore people lol. Cheers, Jon
I was also curious about the glass scales and their thermal coefficient. Is the glass more stable and helps compensate? I wonder if your machine and workk piece with same thermal coefficient if using mechanical scales and screws etc would cancel each other out?
That was very good Jon. You know how much I like the calcs. My workshop is actually part of my house, so I am very lucky because the temperature in there is uniform, pretty much, year round. It is something that I am very glad about. Like others have already said, I think the biggest issue for a lot of us is the very large deltaT's that can be had by heating due to machining. That is how dimensions can easily be blown, and yes I have done it. As an addendum, another interesting use of the expansion formula you showed is to design shrink fits in components. I did exactly that when I dimensioned my bronze acme nut and continuous cast iron nut housing for my Harrison milling machine. Thanks for a great film.
Thank you Jon. A very interesting subject. I've learnt to let parts cool down after machining before making final measurements. Using cutting oil to reduce heat. Stefan Gotteswinter did a recent video on the subject using a test inducator to measure metal expansion. More tips like this Jon are so useful to me. Cheers Nobby
Mate , you are giving away all our secrets ! Now they know , when we give the finished parts back in the warm afternoon they will think we made it undersize ! Same goes for bores on a cold morning ! Cheers . 👍
You could have put a long length of aluminium in an oven at 100°C and measured the length and temperature at the same time, then done it again when it had cooled down because machining can make something pretty hot. I think this is something that the home machinists need to worry about more than the night and day temperature difference, as most probably use blunter tooling with no cooling methods. One experiment that would show more of a result to get your point across maybe, just an idea, these measurement experiments I find interesting. I liked it when you get into the mathematics of engineering.
Hi James, thanks for the comment. You are correct. I have covered this in previous tips videos on coolant and balanced cuts etc. I wanted to cover the ambient temperature aspect in isolation otherwise it gets really complex trying to explain the joint effects of both etc. Hope this makes sense. Cheers, Jon
Nice one Jon Well temperature change certainly affects my accuracy in the midst of winter, when I'm dithering and shaking whilst using a micrometer 😂🤣👍🍺 See you next time Regards Kev
Nice subject Jon, yes, many think it needs 100°C delta to impact accuracy and tolerance. Clockmakers knew this, hence the pendulums are manufactured from two complementary materials to reduce length change. My apprenticeship machining was on copper and bronze alloys for resistance welding equipment, what fun. Excellent video. Thanks for sharing
Gday Jon, that was very interesting and I’d like to see this revisited on the winter there, I know it gets bloody cold where you live, great video mate, cheers
Hi Matty, thanks for the comment and feedback mate, much appreciated. I will revisit this as I am sure the results will open a few eyes! Hope you're coping buddy, still firmly in my thoughts! Cheers, Jon
In 1989 I was a steel fabricator. I was working outside in mid summer on new 1.5m high, 27 m long castellated beams. The inspector checked my work at the end of shift and said I was 5mm over tolerance and I needed to remove an end plate and shorten the beam before welding. 10am next day it was within tolerance without me touching it 😂
Hi Neil, thanks for the comment. Lol, you clearly knew better than your inspector 🤣🤣🤣. And you know fine well if you followed his instructions and next morning it was undersize, it would all have been your fault. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, the varying emissivity of the surfaces affects the reading from non-contact IR thermometers. To get a consistent reading you need matt black. Get a roll of black (or blue isn't too much different) masking tape and stick it to what you want to measure. Excellent topic for us amateurs, whilst I could have worked this out I didn't (because I try to engage brain as little as possible in down time), so I had to learn this the hard way!
Hi Olly, thanks for the comment and tips on the IR thermometer. I will get myself some, I guess sharpie on normal masking tape may work, will give it a go. Cheers, Jon
Good video thanks Jon. I think this also links in to your video on coolant. When machining bearing diameters on the lathe coolant is a must because the CTE increases the diameter during cutting and then when the part cools it is undersize. I also had this issue on my surface grinder when grinding dry. So I always use flood coolant now when trying to hold tight tolerances.
Hi, thanks for the comment. Yes, you are correct, definitely linked. I wanted to split ambient from generated heat as trying to cover both in one video would have been difficult and probably confusing etc. I only scratched the surface here as well, this topic is massive (measuring temp gradient from floor to ceiling etc etc). Cheers, Jon
Hey Jon m, nice video! I once worked temporarily on a hardening furnace for sintered parts. gears for diesel pumps for VW were manufactured there. the dimensional tolerances were CPK +/- 3.2 müy We had special measuring rooms in which the temperature and humidity had to be maintained. and when entering the measured values, the component temperature and room temperature also had to be recorded. a difference of 5 degrees celsius resulted in a measured value difference of 15 müy ... that's about 1/6 of a human hair. that was interesting work. Have a nice weekend!
Hi Chris, thanks for the comment. Sounds very similar to the work I did in Rolls-Royce, we were splitting microns as well. 😊. Cheers, and I hope you are well. Cheers, Jon
Good morning Jon. I was watching you take multiple temperature readings with the associated bleeps..... Mrs B from the hall, " you better come and have a look at this, I think we've got a problem with the burglar alarm." 😂
Hi Dave, thanks for the comment. Lol, I think you should soon get a look, won't hold a thou though despite what they tell you over there😂😂😂😂😂. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, my DRO has glass scales mounted in Aluminium housings, they are held in with rubber inserts so free to float with unequal expansion, yes the housing will bend hoping the error will be reduced. Have no idea how much the glass scale will expand with 10 degree Celsius temp change.
Hi Willem, thanks for the comment. If its normal glass, it will be similar to steel in terms of expansion, if it is Pyrex glass it will be almost identical to cast iron, and if its quartz it will be almost zero. Glass is very stable below 1000C, which is why it is used in machine scales. Rubber mounts on the more expensive scales mitigate the effects. Cheers, Jon
I keep my shop at 65 to 70 bananas all year round. 65 bananas in the summer and 70 bananas in the winter. If I know I'm not going to be in the shop a few days, I'll turn the AC off in the summer or down to 45 bananas in the winter until the day before I'm going back in the shop, so everything has 24 hours to get to temp. People who visit asked why I do this, and I explained this to them, and they are always amazed by it. The winters where I live (Pacific Northwest USA) are long and average 5 to 10 bananas and sometimes goes into minus bananas.
Hello Jon, Sorry for being on the missing list, back now... interesting stuff, I remember learning this stuff in my apprenticeship... see you next time. Take care Paul,,
Hello Jon, this is exactly why I went to the trouble of schlepping tons of machinery down into the basement. With a modest energy input, the space realizes a near-constant temperature (and dew point) all year - so blown tolerances are all down to the operator. 🤨
Stop trying to frighten me John😱 I'm not building a spaceship! It takes me all my time to be 0.01mm repeatability on a couple of parts without you throwing a spanner in the works😁
I have seen 0.03mm difference in diameter on a bearing on a 25-degree delta. It can influence a press fit. I measure the bearings at temperature before I do my final cuts.
It always surprised me how much difference in temperature reading you could get when checking different surfaces with an infra-red thermometer, due to the different emittance from those surfaces, even though you totally knew they were all the same
Hi Bill, thanks for the comment. Yeah, just getting used to mine as its a new toy. Going to get some matt black tape which I am told improves the variability. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop I got one from Aldi, from the middle Isle, an impromptu purchase if you like. It would have been 5 or 6 years ago, then a couple of years later I went to use it for the first time. The rubber outer had sort of perished and gone all sticky and semi liquid, absolutely revolting. It still worked, but it went in the bin.
Aluminium drives me nuts when you clamp it on an inside bore. The one minute you are cutting and the next you're ducking. You have to either cool it or constantly tighten your chuck.
On the Z-axis, won't most of that get negated by the column lengthening as well? Why not clamp the rod in the middle and put indicators on both ends? (Ok, your base is going to expand as well, feels like Archimedes looking for somewhere solid to put his lever.)
Digging around in the dark recesses of my memory banks, not something someone should do if they are of a sensitive nature, i recall that they found railway tracks only expanded at the ends of the rails which is counter intuitive. That was why traditionally they had short ish lengths and expansion joints, but found they could have long welded tracks and far fewer joints, making for smoothrr and quieter trains. Mind you as that snippet came from my recesses it could well be complete phooey, or should that be utter bollocks? Interesting subject all the same but how many of us have temp controlled environments outside of a metrology lab, if only i had the dosh! Maybe in my next life?😗
Youve used the thermal expansion coefficient for cast iron per degree Fahreneight. Your value for the thermal expansion coefficient of aluminium seems rather high. Typical aluminium aloys have a coefficient of thermal expansion of around 24 ppm/C near room temperature. It may be somewhat higher for temperatures significantly above ambient, The thermal exapnsion coefficient of most metals approaches zero as the temperature drops to absolute zero.
Global warming will surely make this a problem of the past as there will be no more cold places left on the planet.....you can see I'm really observing the physics here🤣
Hi Jon, Why would you have a negative change on one axis (Y) and a positive change on the other axis (X), with a round bar I would have thought the expansion/contraction would have been the same on both axis ?
Hi Martyn, thanks for the comment and the excellent question. I am in danger of writing a thesis here lol. This is a hugely complex topic but in summary, I am dealing with a metal Airfix kit where between the table and the spindle there are 10's of interfaces all with their own inaccuracies (out of squareness, parallel etc) and a mix of materials with different coefficients. The final movement at the spindle nose will depend on the combination of all of these variables and basically 'which inaccurate interface wins the fight'. I hope that makes sense as a summary, very very complex which is why I kept this video at a really high level otherwise it would have run for hours🤣🤣🤣. I will pin your comment as it really is an excellent question and your inquisitiveness pleases me, I thought it was only me sad enough to get excited about this stuff!
how could we have a talk? /. hope to sponsor ,@@jonsworkshop
@@MaXpeedingRods_Coop Hi, thanks very much for reaching out. At the moment I don't really want to go down the sponsorship route, as I believe that will detract from the purpose of the channel. If I change my thinking in the future, I will be in touch. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop thanks Jon , how i could keep in touch with you on ig or fb ?
That's dedication; making a video on a Friday night while the pub's open. Cheers.
Hi Mark, thanks for the comment. Lol, the bar was well and truly open, just out of shot. Cheers, Jon
That was brilliant. Thanks Jon 👍 🇬🇧
Thanks for sharing your expertise, even though we may not understand it as well as you do, doesn't mean we don't enjoy getting into the numbers.
Hi Richard, thanks for the comment. Lol, I just worry lots of people will just switch off 😂😂😂. Glad you enjoyed it. Cheers, Jon
Great demo Jon. Thanks for bringing us along
Thanks Terry, much appreciated mate. Cheers, Jon
Great info Jon. As a former metrologist, I really enjoy, and appreciate this sort of content!
Hi Jeff, thanks for the comment, glad you enjoyed it. Cheers, Jon
Interesting video Jon. A more common way to get bitten on this is workpiece heating due to cutting, particularly on lathes where you might experience 50 to 70 degree deltas. In terms of lathe work, most people know about diametric changes, but tend to ignore the associated length changes, this can blow axial dimensions quite easily.
Guilty as charged :)
Hi Wibbly wobbly, thanks for the comment. Yup, bang on. I should have mentioned this in the video. I have covered this in previous tips videos etc, but I wanted to split the two things out otherwise it becomes a monster of a topic to try and cover. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop Hi Jon. This was my thought as well. A good case for flood coolant, but most small hobby lathes don't have that. A very complex subject as you have said. Cheers rob
@@Xynudu Thanks Rob. Cheers, Jon
Heck yeah it does. Great Video Jon! Hard to get a change in your shop as you said. For me I get 0c at the min in the winter and then 47++c during the summer with over night lows changing I guess 15c or so. 115 and then 88 or so bananas early in the morning in the summer. If you needed me to make you a precise part in the summer I would have to offset the dims for it to be on size at your shop. Another thing can be when you were clocking the part in the machine, both the part and the machine change size..so as the machine contracts so does the part. the scales have some wiggle room in the stability of the glass being glued in with a silicone adhesive so it doesn't rip the glass apart when the holder changes size.
Hi, thanks for the comment. 100% on everything you say! Our range is -18C to +30 at worst so similar. I could bang on for ages on this topic, soak times, thermal gradients etc etc but I think I would bore people lol. Cheers, Jon
I was also curious about the glass scales and their thermal coefficient. Is the glass more stable and helps compensate?
I wonder if your machine and workk piece with same thermal coefficient if using mechanical scales and screws etc would cancel each other out?
That was very good Jon. You know how much I like the calcs. My workshop is actually part of my house, so I am very lucky because the temperature in there is uniform, pretty much, year round. It is something that I am very glad about.
Like others have already said, I think the biggest issue for a lot of us is the very large deltaT's that can be had by heating due to machining. That is how dimensions can easily be blown, and yes I have done it.
As an addendum, another interesting use of the expansion formula you showed is to design shrink fits in components. I did exactly that when I dimensioned my bronze acme nut and continuous cast iron nut housing for my Harrison milling machine.
Thanks for a great film.
Thank you Jon. A very interesting subject. I've learnt to let parts cool down after machining before making final measurements. Using cutting oil to reduce heat. Stefan Gotteswinter did a recent video on the subject using a test inducator to measure metal expansion. More tips like this Jon are so useful to me. Cheers Nobby
Mate , you are giving away all our secrets ! Now they know , when we give the finished parts back in the warm afternoon they will think we made it undersize ! Same goes for bores on a cold morning ! Cheers . 👍
Hi Max, lol, I know. I have actually seen something similar done in the past for the 'customers eyes' lol. Cheers, Jon
good video Jon..thanks for your time
You could have put a long length of aluminium in an oven at 100°C and measured the length and temperature at the same time, then done it again when it had cooled down because machining can make something pretty hot. I think this is something that the home machinists need to worry about more than the night and day temperature difference, as most probably use blunter tooling with no cooling methods. One experiment that would show more of a result to get your point across maybe, just an idea, these measurement experiments I find interesting. I liked it when you get into the mathematics of engineering.
Hi James, thanks for the comment. You are correct. I have covered this in previous tips videos on coolant and balanced cuts etc. I wanted to cover the ambient temperature aspect in isolation otherwise it gets really complex trying to explain the joint effects of both etc. Hope this makes sense. Cheers, Jon
Nice one Jon
Well temperature change certainly affects my accuracy in the midst of winter, when I'm dithering and shaking whilst using a micrometer 😂🤣👍🍺
See you next time
Regards
Kev
Hi Kev, thanks for the comment. Lol, I never thought of that variable 🤣🤣🤣🤣. Cheers, Jon
Nice subject Jon, yes, many think it needs 100°C delta to impact accuracy and tolerance.
Clockmakers knew this, hence the pendulums are manufactured from two complementary materials to reduce length change.
My apprenticeship machining was on copper and bronze alloys for resistance welding equipment, what fun.
Excellent video.
Thanks for sharing
Gday Jon, that was very interesting and I’d like to see this revisited on the winter there, I know it gets bloody cold where you live, great video mate, cheers
Hi Matty, thanks for the comment and feedback mate, much appreciated. I will revisit this as I am sure the results will open a few eyes! Hope you're coping buddy, still firmly in my thoughts! Cheers, Jon
In 1989 I was a steel fabricator. I was working outside in mid summer on new 1.5m high, 27 m long castellated beams. The inspector checked my work at the end of shift and said I was 5mm over tolerance and I needed to remove an end plate and shorten the beam before welding. 10am next day it was within tolerance without me touching it 😂
Hi Neil, thanks for the comment. Lol, you clearly knew better than your inspector 🤣🤣🤣. And you know fine well if you followed his instructions and next morning it was undersize, it would all have been your fault. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, the varying emissivity of the surfaces affects the reading from non-contact IR thermometers. To get a consistent reading you need matt black. Get a roll of black (or blue isn't too much different) masking tape and stick it to what you want to measure. Excellent topic for us amateurs, whilst I could have worked this out I didn't (because I try to engage brain as little as possible in down time), so I had to learn this the hard way!
Hi Olly, thanks for the comment and tips on the IR thermometer. I will get myself some, I guess sharpie on normal masking tape may work, will give it a go. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop Sharpie on masking tape will also work, I've done that myself.
Very good Jon.
Great topic for “how the heck did that happen to my parts dimension”
Thanks Dan, hope you're well mate. Cheers, Jon
Good video thanks Jon. I think this also links in to your video on coolant. When machining bearing diameters on the lathe coolant is a must because the CTE increases the diameter during cutting and then when the part cools it is undersize. I also had this issue on my surface grinder when grinding dry. So I always use flood coolant now when trying to hold tight tolerances.
Hi, thanks for the comment. Yes, you are correct, definitely linked. I wanted to split ambient from generated heat as trying to cover both in one video would have been difficult and probably confusing etc. I only scratched the surface here as well, this topic is massive (measuring temp gradient from floor to ceiling etc etc). Cheers, Jon
Hey Jon m, nice video!
I once worked temporarily on a hardening furnace for sintered parts. gears for diesel pumps for VW were manufactured there. the dimensional tolerances were CPK +/- 3.2 müy We had special measuring rooms in which the temperature and humidity had to be maintained. and when entering the measured values, the component temperature and room temperature also had to be recorded. a difference of 5 degrees celsius resulted in a measured value difference of 15 müy ... that's about 1/6 of a human hair. that was interesting work.
Have a nice weekend!
Hi Chris, thanks for the comment. Sounds very similar to the work I did in Rolls-Royce, we were splitting microns as well. 😊. Cheers, and I hope you are well. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, enjoyed the video! 👍
Regards Tony
Hi Tony, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
Good video Jon 👍👍👍
Good morning Jon. I was watching you take multiple temperature readings with the associated bleeps..... Mrs B from the hall, " you better come and have a look at this, I think we've got a problem with the burglar alarm." 😂
Jon, have you seen rail tracks buckling under the summer heat? (Not here in Scotland😅) It petty incredible the amount of distortion. 👍🏴
Hi Alasdair, thanks for the comment. Yep, it's phenomenal. With global warming, maybe making rail is a good business idea🤔. Cheers, Jon
Good points there Jon. 13 Metre plates, what machine can you fit those on and get a 1 thou tollerance ? Regards from Australia.
Hi Dave, thanks for the comment. Lol, I think you should soon get a look, won't hold a thou though despite what they tell you over there😂😂😂😂😂. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, my DRO has glass scales mounted in Aluminium housings, they are held in with rubber inserts so free to float with unequal expansion, yes the housing will bend hoping the error will be reduced.
Have no idea how much the glass scale will expand with 10 degree Celsius temp change.
Hi Willem, thanks for the comment. If its normal glass, it will be similar to steel in terms of expansion, if it is Pyrex glass it will be almost identical to cast iron, and if its quartz it will be almost zero. Glass is very stable below 1000C, which is why it is used in machine scales. Rubber mounts on the more expensive scales mitigate the effects. Cheers, Jon
I keep my shop at 65 to 70 bananas all year round. 65 bananas in the summer and 70 bananas in the winter. If I know I'm not going to be in the shop a few days, I'll turn the AC off in the summer or down to 45 bananas in the winter until the day before I'm going back in the shop, so everything has 24 hours to get to temp. People who visit asked why I do this, and I explained this to them, and they are always amazed by it. The winters where I live (Pacific Northwest USA) are long and average 5 to 10 bananas and sometimes goes into minus bananas.
Hi Jon, this is quite interesting. I did not know that 10 degrees temp difference can make that much of a difference in size. Thanks for sharing.
Hello Jon,
Sorry for being on the missing list, back now... interesting stuff, I remember learning this stuff in my apprenticeship... see you next time.
Take care
Paul,,
Hello Jon, this is exactly why I went to the trouble of schlepping tons of machinery down into the basement. With a modest energy input, the space realizes a near-constant temperature (and dew point) all year - so blown tolerances are all down to the operator. 🤨
Stop trying to frighten me John😱 I'm not building a spaceship! It takes me all my time to be 0.01mm repeatability on a couple of parts without you throwing a spanner in the works😁
I have seen 0.03mm difference in diameter on a bearing on a 25-degree delta. It can influence a press fit. I measure the bearings at temperature before I do my final cuts.
It always surprised me how much difference in temperature reading you could get when checking different surfaces with an infra-red thermometer, due to the different emittance from those surfaces, even though you totally knew they were all the same
Hi Bill, thanks for the comment. Yeah, just getting used to mine as its a new toy. Going to get some matt black tape which I am told improves the variability. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop I got one from Aldi, from the middle Isle, an impromptu purchase if you like. It would have been 5 or 6 years ago, then a couple of years later I went to use it for the first time. The rubber outer had sort of perished and gone all sticky and semi liquid, absolutely revolting. It still worked, but it went in the bin.
Aluminium drives me nuts when you clamp it on an inside bore. The one minute you are cutting and the next you're ducking. You have to either cool it or constantly tighten your chuck.
On the Z-axis, won't most of that get negated by the column lengthening as well? Why not clamp the rod in the middle and put indicators on both ends? (Ok, your base is going to expand as well, feels like Archimedes looking for somewhere solid to put his lever.)
Digging around in the dark recesses of my memory banks, not something someone should do if they are of a sensitive nature, i recall that they found railway tracks only expanded at the ends of the rails which is counter intuitive. That was why traditionally they had short ish lengths and expansion joints, but found they could have long welded tracks and far fewer joints, making for smoothrr and quieter trains. Mind you as that snippet came from my recesses it could well be complete phooey, or should that be utter bollocks?
Interesting subject all the same but how many of us have temp controlled environments outside of a metrology lab, if only i had the dosh! Maybe in my next life?😗
Youve used the thermal expansion coefficient for cast iron per degree Fahreneight. Your value for the thermal expansion coefficient of aluminium seems rather high. Typical aluminium aloys have a coefficient of thermal expansion of around 24 ppm/C near room temperature. It may be somewhat higher for temperatures significantly above ambient, The thermal exapnsion coefficient of most metals approaches zero as the temperature drops to absolute zero.
Umm, thinking !!
Thanks Terry. Don't think too hard, it hurts. Cheers, Jon
Global warming will surely make this a problem of the past as there will be no more cold places left on the planet.....you can see I'm really observing the physics here🤣
Hi Howard, lol, it will still be pi$$ing with rain here no matter what happens. 🌧️🌧️🌧️🤣🤣