you'd think FX would have something on their website about barell liners, but there's nothing at all. They should have the liners, the typical pellets/slugs they like, and a rough guide as to the velocities required.
Clearly demonstrates the difference between firearms and air gun internal-external ballistics. It seems the industry is moving - a little too fast maybe - towards “imitating” firearms. I, personally, prefer the two worlds to remain separated. They are complementary. Thanks Ted for a usual great job.
The inventor of the smooth twist experimented with running a , 22lr with a smooth twist barrel in the early days. I still have some pics of the captured bullets somewhere.
You did a great job of explaining what is happening to the slugs passing through the barrel and what affects each barrel depending on what design they are. I find it very helpful and interesting Ted thank you
My brain just went Click! Slower twist rates help the pellet at distance because as the pellet slows down the twist rate doesn’t! So a pellet spin to travel ratio ends up being higher at the TARGET than it was out of the barrel. You are on to something here Ted. This may also explain why I am getting good results out of a marauder at slower FPS with certain slugs than higher FPS. Can’t wait to get my paws on some .25 knockouts!
Always listen to your take when it comes to airgun accuracy. I've been watching your videos since the edgun days and it's nice to see her come outa the safe every now and again.
Appreciate your effort brother. Hard for the average consumer to know what barrel liner to get but hey let’s hope between yours and testing at FX the answer will soon be revealed
Hi Ted Hope you well. Your video might explain some results i got when recently testing an H&N Slug Sampler pack in .217 through my Crown fitted with a 500mm STX barrel, the lighter 21gr slugs at 860fps wouldn't group under an inch even at 50y while the bigger slugs grouped well the best being the 27gr at 758fps with a sub inch group at 100y which really surprised me as everyone says slugs need speed to stabilize, but to confuse things even more i shot a sub 1/2 inch group at 70y with the 21gr slugs off camera on another day which really got me head scratching as way they didn't shoot so well the first day until watching your video, i was running low on air the second day so must have shot the 21gr at a slower speed allowing them to engage the rifling better, i didn't have the chronograph set up so don't know what speed they were doing but its the only thing i can think off to explain their sudden change in accuracy.
Thank God you’re reviewing the superior liner. I saw Tyler’s review of it, and I think there was some sort of systematic error. The groups weren’t as impressive as I thought they were going to be.
Noticed today, the rifling impression starts significantly closer to the start of the liner on the superior, as opposed to the STX pellet liner. Think this might help account for better seating and increased spin, in turn helping slug velocity and stability. Just a thought for your testing!
Totally agree with your conclusion. Knockouts shoot better at slower speeds for me too. When I shoot it in the 600mm stx at 800-830 as compared to when I shoot them at 930-950.
So dumb question but if you apply the Green Hill formula to a FX Hybrid slug from say a 700mm Superior liner couldn't FX perfect the accuracy of that slug at a defined speed... The ideal twist rate of the bore is given by the Green Hill Formula, which factors in bullet diameter, length, specific gravity, and a constant C (C=150 for velocities up to 2,800 fps. 180 for velocities over 2,800 fps). I know velocity is a variable due to air consumption etc. but say average is 900 FPS based on the above seems they could make a liner that shoots that specific slug predictably over and over... I am only a pellet shooter but appreciate the flatter trajectory of slugs...Ha, have to many hours in research of pellet flight and stabilization I guess...However I will say it paid off....SO close to the magic 10 shot half inch at 100 group (best being .61 out of my FX Crown .30 AND my DayState RedWolf HP .22 using the JSB Redesigned .63).....Long comment but the nerd in me had to ask!!
Fantastic work ted.... Twist rate barrel length rifling and projectile interaction just needs an equation to tell us what tune speed and barrel suits which projectile
There are already equations for predicting errors at the target based on the twist rate, the projectile properties and what happens to the projectile when it leaves the barrel. Barrel length will affect muzzle blast more than anything else which is difficult to predict. There is no single equation.
Hi Can you get your hands on a superior liner 700mm in .22 and .25 testing the hybrid on both setup. Maybe in a wildcat mk3 sniper rig! Thanks for you input, you are the best out there!
Hey Ted, I think you know more than what you're saying. Twist rate is very important for slugs and may I ask you what Twist Rate you recommend for Slugs and what is a great Twist Rate for pellets. I don't think one TR can produce very good accuracy for both slugs and pellets. Please explain.
This is Very Valuable info. Cause i own a crown 500mm stx barrel and i wasnt sure if buying a .25 kit or a .22 600mm slug liner or superior liner but a would have to buy first a .25 kit to use it because there is not a .22 superior liner yet.
Wellll, there’s some confusion...about the future. But hey, that’s where making predictions gets hard! Sooo, between you and Matt I’m really looking forward to the next several months of reporting. (Way more than in other subject areas certainly 😱)
That makes sense. My new impact came with the superior liner however I’d already brought a slug liner A 600mm to go in the rifle. My superior liner will probably never get used unless I buy an old second hand impact for it to go in. But that would have to be a sub 12 impact as I’ve already got the fac .22 mk2. Now I’m sure sub 12 wouldn’t shoot slugs too well 🤔 but pellets would probably work brilliantly 👍
Ted, if you capture some slugs in water you would be able to see if the faster ones are skidding in the rifling. If they are skidding, try .218 diameter rather than .217.
I think you right. Cause I swapped to the Superior barrel. Funny part is it definitely needs a little more speed I think. I've got mine tuned to 940for the Hybrids. And the interesting part is the Hybrid slug seems to like it. HOWEVER the Nielsen ones @26.8 grains. Were struggling. Maybe more speed?
OFF THE SUBJECT:: I’ve been on the fence for over two years waiting patiently for the perfect FX for a lefty.. the new M3 might be as close as FX is going to get.. I can’t seem to get anyone to simply hold their M3 as a lefty would and report back to me weather it can be done comfortably or not.. . I would like to take advantage of the two regulator technology and left handed cocking.. I just don’t know where my cheek is going to land on the rifle..
Were the twist rates on the different length barrels different? The gyroscopic stability of a slug at 900ft/sec could also be worse than it is at slower speeds.
There always changing it up, it can get confusing and expensive. I think it’s a big pain in the butt. I love the FX impact and I have a lot of add ons and have spent a small fortune for my Impact with a new butt stocks and tripods, extenders, etc, next I’ll have to get the power plenum, another $350.00. When does it end ? I guess when I end it.
Welp, I don't have an impact but appreciate the hypothesis on the situation. My guns have WL choked barrels, with the chioke I have to run slugs slower to get the to group well, at least at this point. I have tried a smaller size of .249 instead of the .250 and two of my guns do better with the .250 so far, no tuning to the guns for the slugs yet to see what I can get with them, I'm working on trying to see if they will work at higher speeds.
So the KNOCKOUTS should do ok in LW barrels? My current .22 set-up is likely to shoot those around 830-840 fps. I've ordered a couple of KNOCKOUT tins , Let's see
Ted. It will be good to have your opinion on the superior. My superior heavy 700 mm 25 cal was a disappointment. I’m back on the slugliner A. About the dreamline classic: I will ask you to pick up a box h@n slugs 218 at 21 gr and shoot them at 930 with the stx liner 500 mm. It’s my most accurate set up ever.
:( no ... no confusion at all ... well maybe a bit ... but i think you are bang on the money with your theory ... looking forward to seeing the test results
Wait..? I thought I read somewhere that the smooth twist barrels only have the last inch or so with the twist set in, near the muzzle end. And that majority of the barrel has no twist. Please correct if I’m mis- informed
Great info. I have a dreamline lite compact with the smooth twist x barrel. And it shoots the fx slugs like crap. I think my problem is my barrel is too short and its not engaging the rifling aggressively enough. I dont think increasing fps will matter with mine having such a short barrel (shooting 25.39jsb kings .25cal at 850-854fps).
Kevin, the compacts have too short of a barrel for slugs. Okay accuracy with Hybrids due to their lightness, but not really built for anything but pellets. You can still put a longer barrel kit on a compact though for slugs shooting
@@FXAirguns Well I was going to wait a little while, because I was told...you guys are making some new barrel kits for the dreamline? Can you confirm that?
Are there days where you wish you were a kid again with just a Crosman 760 and your biggest problem was your mom yelling at you for leaving BBs or pellets in your pants pockets as she was doing laundry?
Great information, great stuff here! Ted, now I know you may think I'm off my rocker but... Why don't you blow every one away with a new video shooting a pimped up S200 in 1'77 caliber, and a stock one!!!!!! AND even do some pesting with it!! There are thousands out there with one of these S200 rifles, and boy is it underestimated!!!! Look it it this way, bo one has ever REALLY done a proper video on this baby. I mean yeah you can see some videos out there but not as good as when you dive into a review... So please, think about it at least!!!!!! You will get hits on the video from all over the globe on this one!!!!! Stay safe :-)
STX stand for smooth twist x. It was created in 2018, and it was the first of the new(er) FX barrels, created with full barrel rifling; not just at the muzzle (like original smooth twist). STX Superior is the result of FX's work fine-tuning the original STX barrel. So, a Superior barrel IS an STX barrel, but an STX barrel isn't necessarily a Superior barrel. Confused yet? :)
@@HoldOverVlog Thanks. At least I know there are two different barrels now, as in the standard and the superior. I purchased an FX Wildcat MK3 sometime around March 2020 so was wondering if the barrel on that would be the standard or the superior, though from what you've stated I'm guessing it's the superior.
Not that's not correct. The normal crowns are 600mm... I know we own 2x .25 Crowns and 4x Crown Continuums 2x in .22 and 2x in .25.... Hubby and i don't share guns so we end up buying many of the same guns in case you are wondering... And we don't do cal changes because when a gun is dialed we don't touch it.... Non Continuum Crowns in .25 are 600mm... If you buy a Crown Continuum it will come with a 700mm barrel and a 380mm barrel.
Sorry Ted, but this is bullshit. When a projectile exits the SmoothTwist X barrel with a 1:16" twist rate - it makes a full revolution after 16" in the initial phase of the flight, however, according to you, it spins slower right from the beginning. That's correct but in the case of a SmoothTwist barrel (not SmoothTwist X) where the rifling is at the very end of the barrel only and the projectile is simply torn in the rifling.
At some point all these variables with the FX dissolve into anarchy; all the confusion and elaborate hypotheses would resolve themselves if you were to move to an RTI Priest/Prophet.
you'd think FX would have something on their website about barell liners, but there's nothing at all. They should have the liners, the typical pellets/slugs they like, and a rough guide as to the velocities required.
Clearly demonstrates the difference between firearms and air gun internal-external ballistics. It seems the industry is moving - a little too fast maybe - towards “imitating” firearms. I, personally, prefer the two worlds to remain separated. They are complementary. Thanks Ted for a usual great job.
Not to fast mate, it's moving on fine, fx has moved airguns on massively and quickly.
The inventor of the smooth twist experimented with running a , 22lr with a smooth twist barrel in the early days. I still have some pics of the captured bullets somewhere.
You did a great job of explaining what is happening to the slugs passing through the barrel and what affects each barrel depending on what design they are. I find it very helpful and interesting Ted thank you
Nice to see you back in the saddle, so to speak. Thanks Ted.
It makes absolute sense. Good video. Stay safe and stay blessed my friend. From, New Mexico 🇺🇸 👍✌
My brain just went Click! Slower twist rates help the pellet at distance because as the pellet slows down the twist rate doesn’t! So a pellet spin to travel ratio ends up being higher at the TARGET than it was out of the barrel. You are on to something here Ted.
This may also explain why I am getting good results out of a marauder at slower FPS with certain slugs than higher FPS.
Can’t wait to get my paws on some .25 knockouts!
Really insightful Ted. Explains a lot. Looking forward to seeing how you get on with Superior barrels. 700mm superior would love to see too!
Always listen to your take when it comes to airgun accuracy. I've been watching your videos since the edgun days and it's nice to see her come outa the safe every now and again.
Thank you Ted for detailed explanation
Easier way to say it is that the slug slips in the rifling of the smooth twist x barrel.
Appreciate your effort brother. Hard for the average consumer to know what barrel liner to get but hey let’s hope between yours and testing at FX the answer will soon be revealed
awesome explanation Ted as always ....not confusing at all
Hi Ted Hope you well. Your video might explain some results i got when recently testing an H&N Slug Sampler pack in .217 through my Crown fitted with a 500mm STX barrel, the lighter 21gr slugs at 860fps wouldn't group under an inch even at 50y while the bigger slugs grouped well the best being the 27gr at 758fps with a sub inch group at 100y which really surprised me as everyone says slugs need speed to stabilize, but to confuse things even more i shot a sub 1/2 inch group at 70y with the 21gr slugs off camera on another day which really got me head scratching as way they didn't shoot so well the first day until watching your video, i was running low on air the second day so must have shot the 21gr at a slower speed allowing them to engage the rifling better, i didn't have the chronograph set up so don't know what speed they were doing but its the only thing i can think off to explain their sudden change in accuracy.
Really interesting Ted, a lot of that went over my head, but love the passion you show for the sport. Top man
Thank God you’re reviewing the superior liner. I saw Tyler’s review of it, and I think there was some sort of systematic error. The groups weren’t as impressive as I thought they were going to be.
Noticed today, the rifling impression starts significantly closer to the start of the liner on the superior, as opposed to the STX pellet liner. Think this might help account for better seating and increased spin, in turn helping slug velocity and stability. Just a thought for your testing!
Totally agree with your conclusion. Knockouts shoot better at slower speeds for me too. When I shoot it in the 600mm stx at 800-830 as compared to when I shoot them at 930-950.
Brilliant mate in the explanation department!
Cheers, Mark
Farm Pest Management
So dumb question but if you apply the Green Hill formula to a FX Hybrid slug from say a 700mm Superior liner couldn't FX perfect the accuracy of that slug at a defined speed...
The ideal twist rate of the bore is given by the Green Hill Formula, which factors in bullet diameter, length, specific gravity, and a constant C (C=150 for velocities up to 2,800 fps. 180 for velocities over 2,800 fps).
I know velocity is a variable due to air consumption etc. but say average is 900 FPS based on the above seems they could make a liner that shoots that specific slug predictably over and over...
I am only a pellet shooter but appreciate the flatter trajectory of slugs...Ha, have to many hours in research of pellet flight and stabilization I guess...However I will say it paid off....SO close to the magic 10 shot half inch at 100 group (best being .61 out of my FX Crown .30 AND my DayState RedWolf HP .22 using the JSB Redesigned .63).....Long comment but the nerd in me had to ask!!
Fantastic work ted.... Twist rate barrel length rifling and projectile interaction just needs an equation to tell us what tune speed and barrel suits which projectile
There are already equations for predicting errors at the target based on the twist rate, the projectile properties and what happens to the projectile when it leaves the barrel. Barrel length will affect muzzle blast more than anything else which is difficult to predict. There is no single equation.
It makes perfect sense to me. Give that feedback to FX and ask them to get even more aggressive with the slug barrels.
I very much agree with you, in fact, I have similar guesses. My friends have done similar tests,it make sense
Whoahwow 2 videos in one day.
Hi
Can you get your hands on a superior liner 700mm in .22 and .25 testing the hybrid on both setup.
Maybe in a wildcat mk3 sniper rig!
Thanks for you input, you are the best out there!
If anyone found that confusing they should probably find a different channel I believe you call that Laymans terms
Makes perfect ince to me. Well said.
Excellent video Ted, Thanks
You have just confirmed what I've been thinking all along, I get no real difference in accuracy between stx barrel and stx a liner.
Thanks!
Hey Ted, I think you know more than what you're saying. Twist rate is very important for slugs and may I ask you what Twist Rate you recommend for Slugs and what is a great Twist Rate for pellets. I don't think one TR can produce very good accuracy for both slugs and pellets. Please explain.
What about the cz barrel on the cricket,
How would you rate that for slugs in fac .22 ?
Great vid btw explains a lot.
This is Very Valuable info. Cause i own a crown 500mm stx barrel and i wasnt sure if buying a .25 kit or a .22 600mm slug liner or superior liner but a would have to buy first a .25 kit to use it because there is not a .22 superior liner yet.
Wellll, there’s some confusion...about the future. But hey, that’s where making predictions gets hard!
Sooo, between you and Matt I’m really looking forward to the next several months of reporting. (Way more than in other subject areas certainly 😱)
Гениальный материал.Жду тестов.
That makes sense. My new impact came with the superior liner however I’d already brought a slug liner A 600mm to go in the rifle. My superior liner will probably never get used unless I buy an old second hand impact for it to go in. But that would have to be a sub 12 impact as I’ve already got the fac .22 mk2. Now I’m sure sub 12 wouldn’t shoot slugs too well 🤔 but pellets would probably work brilliantly 👍
Ted, if you capture some slugs in water you would be able to see if the faster ones are skidding in the rifling. If they are skidding, try .218 diameter rather than .217.
I've captured and checked many there is no slipping!
I think you right. Cause I swapped to the Superior barrel. Funny part is it definitely needs a little more speed I think. I've got mine tuned to 940for the Hybrids. And the interesting part is the Hybrid slug seems to like it. HOWEVER the Nielsen ones @26.8 grains. Were struggling. Maybe more speed?
I love your barrels❤️🇻🇳❤️
the air rifle gods are a tricky lot , thanks for your work .have gain twist barrels been tried as far as you know ?
Good explanation. My .25 cal Warcat at 880 fps did not like the FX Hybrids. I thought I was shooting buckshot.
FN knowledge.. Said it so i can get IT.. Good job!!
Thanks ted yes its complicated I superior pellet and superior slug thanks for sharing
OFF THE SUBJECT:: I’ve been on the fence for over two years waiting patiently for the perfect FX for a lefty.. the new M3 might be as close as FX is going to get.. I can’t seem to get anyone to simply hold their M3 as a lefty would and report back to me weather it can be done comfortably or not.. .
I would like to take advantage of the two regulator technology and left handed cocking.. I just don’t know where my cheek is going to land on the rifle..
Were the twist rates on the different length barrels different? The gyroscopic stability of a slug at 900ft/sec could also be worse than it is at slower speeds.
There always changing it up, it can get confusing and expensive. I think it’s a big pain in the butt. I love the FX impact and I have a lot of add ons and have spent a small fortune for my Impact with a new butt stocks and tripods, extenders, etc, next I’ll have to get the power plenum, another $350.00. When does it end ? I guess when I end it.
You have the theory now how will you set up a testing to eliminate the variables?
Welp, I don't have an impact but appreciate the hypothesis on the situation. My guns have WL choked barrels, with the chioke I have to run slugs slower to get the to group well, at least at this point. I have tried a smaller size of .249 instead of the .250 and two of my guns do better with the .250 so far, no tuning to the guns for the slugs yet to see what I can get with them, I'm working on trying to see if they will work at higher speeds.
So the KNOCKOUTS should do ok in LW barrels? My current .22 set-up is likely to shoot those around 830-840 fps. I've ordered a couple of KNOCKOUT tins , Let's see
Hi Ted
Try out the the 600mm stx pellet liner with the Jsb knock out and shoot them out with 278ms
Believe me 🤏
Ted. It will be good to have your opinion on the superior. My superior heavy 700 mm 25 cal was a disappointment. I’m back on the slugliner A.
About the dreamline classic:
I will ask you to pick up a box h@n slugs 218 at 21 gr and shoot them at 930 with the stx liner 500 mm. It’s my most accurate set up ever.
:( no ... no confusion at all ... well maybe a bit ... but i think you are bang on the money with your theory ... looking forward to seeing the test results
Wait..? I thought I read somewhere that the smooth twist barrels only have the last inch or so with the twist set in, near the muzzle end. And that majority of the barrel has no twist. Please correct if I’m mis- informed
Which barrel does the FX Wildcat MK3 have?
The extra speed was making it slip on the lands?
Hi 🙂, How does that transferr to the accuracy you displayed with the 30 cal? Was it a slugliner?
🙂👍 Thanks
Made sense to me
Wow, interesting.
Great info. I have a dreamline lite compact with the smooth twist x barrel. And it shoots the fx slugs like crap. I think my problem is my barrel is too short and its not engaging the rifling aggressively enough. I dont think increasing fps will matter with mine having such a short barrel (shooting 25.39jsb kings .25cal at 850-854fps).
Kevin, the compacts have too short of a barrel for slugs. Okay accuracy with Hybrids due to their lightness, but not really built for anything but pellets. You can still put a longer barrel kit on a compact though for slugs shooting
@@FXAirguns Well I was going to wait a little while, because I was told...you guys are making some new barrel kits for the dreamline? Can you confirm that?
Ted, I have a Bobcat MK 2 in .22 cal. Do you think the jsb knockouts would shoot well through this or does anyone have any inputs on this? Thanks.
Is the best barrel
Are there days where you wish you were a kid again with just a Crosman 760 and your biggest problem was your mom yelling at you for leaving BBs or pellets in your pants pockets as she was doing laundry?
Somthing that a 1000 or so rounds will work out. You can never tell because some barrels are manufactured as duds.
Great information, great stuff here!
Ted, now I know you may think I'm off my rocker but...
Why don't you blow every one away with a new video shooting a pimped up S200 in 1'77 caliber, and a stock one!!!!!! AND even do some pesting with it!!
There are thousands out there with one of these S200 rifles, and boy is it underestimated!!!!
Look it it this way, bo one has ever REALLY done a proper video on this baby. I mean yeah you can see some videos out there but not as good as when you dive into a review...
So please, think about it at least!!!!!! You will get hits on the video from all over the globe on this one!!!!!
Stay safe :-)
Sounds good but what $200 rifle are you thinking about ??
Is there an STX and an STX Superior barrel?
STX stand for smooth twist x. It was created in 2018, and it was the first of the new(er) FX barrels, created with full barrel rifling; not just at the muzzle (like original smooth twist). STX Superior is the result of FX's work fine-tuning the original STX barrel. So, a Superior barrel IS an STX barrel, but an STX barrel isn't necessarily a Superior barrel. Confused yet? :)
@@HoldOverVlog Thanks. At least I know there are two different barrels now, as in the standard and the superior. I purchased an FX Wildcat MK3 sometime around March 2020 so was wondering if the barrel on that would be the standard or the superior, though from what you've stated I'm guessing it's the superior.
What is the length of the barrel on a .25 cal FX Crown?
700 mil mate 👍
Not that's not correct. The normal crowns are 600mm... I know we own 2x .25 Crowns and 4x Crown Continuums 2x in .22 and 2x in .25.... Hubby and i don't share guns so we end up buying many of the same guns in case you are wondering... And we don't do cal changes because when a gun is dialed we don't touch it....
Non Continuum Crowns in .25 are 600mm... If you buy a Crown Continuum it will come with a 700mm barrel and a 380mm barrel.
That is one dead plant. Lol
Clear as mud!
Sorry Ted, but this is bullshit. When a projectile exits the SmoothTwist X barrel with a 1:16" twist rate - it makes a full revolution after 16" in the initial phase of the flight, however, according to you, it spins slower right from the beginning. That's correct but in the case of a SmoothTwist barrel (not SmoothTwist X) where the rifling is at the very end of the barrel only and the projectile is simply torn in the rifling.
At some point all these variables with the FX dissolve into anarchy; all the confusion and elaborate hypotheses would resolve themselves if you were to move to an RTI Priest/Prophet.