How is the Biblical View of Saving Faith Under Siege?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- How is the Biblical View of Saving Faith Under Siege?
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Welcome to the Grace in Focus radio / podcast. Bob Wilkin and Mike Lii are talking about Bob’s new book, a sequel to one of Zane Hodges’ books. The Gospel is Still Under Siege, is the title. What are some faulty views of Saving Faith that are being used these days? Bob and Mike continue to offer some answers and thoughts on this topic - Please listen!
Gospel, Under Siege, Book, Bob Wilkin, Saving Faith, Obedience, Repentance, Surrender, Justification, Faith Alone
"The Gospel Still Under Siege" by Bob Wilkin
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"The Gospel Under Siege" by Zane C. Hodges
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Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!
Excellent discussion! You guys certainly showed up modern Calvinists as recycled Roman Catholics. The reformation continues with free grace theology!
The Free Gift has No Price Tag for US...He took care of ALL the Cost so that we can be like little children simply believing in Him for His free gift (John 3:16 & Ephesians 2:8-9) .
John 3:16 is the believer who has been born of water and the Spirit, John 3:5 and why not read John 3:20-21? " For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light....But he who DOES WHAT IS TRUE comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.....he who does not OBEY THE SON shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests on him." This explains what type of faith saves, a obedient faith, not a dead faith.
Eph 2:8-9, we are saved by grace through faith when we are baptized into Christ, when we put Christ on.....
@@DannyLoyd
So , that's your "Price Tag" ?
You deny the present possession of His Free Gift of Everlasting Life that cannot be lost .
Instead , your Object of "faith" is physical Water Baptism and repentance: a Lifelong Perseverance until death in being hopefully - but NEVER Quantifiable nor Knowable - good enough in your behavior (works) to merit and earn entrance into His Kingdom .
So , "faith" for you is not Objectively knowable . Thus uncertain . You cannot look to your imperfect Performance (works) and have Objective certitude that it'll receive a Passing Grade on your Lifetime Report Card after physical death . No mere human can possibly have access to that information .
Nowhere in John 3:5 does Physical Water Baptism occur .
Undeniably .
So , whatever isn't in the Text itself is Eisegesis , the antithesis of Objectively verifiable truth .
John 3:19-21 nowhere has the word Repentance included . Nor John 3:36 (Apeitho in Greek) as BDAG clearly assigns to unbelief , contextually .
So , you need clear passages that sustain your works righteousness affirmation that - specifically , precisely , without exception - assign Eternal Life/eternal Justification before God/Everlasting Life as a REWARD for having persevered till death in Objectively (thus Exegetically) verifiable levels (%) of every conceivable behavioral category .
We've yet to see you Pony Up the Requisite data .
You need a passage that states something like this :
"Whosoever has a 70(%) score or better on the 10 Commandments (and is physically Water Baptized) will be good enough to earn the Free and Unearned Gift of Endless Life after physical death" .
I've looked . Ain't there in the Hebrew , Greek , English , or Swahili .
Why is it that you seem Incapable of summoning the comprehensive works formula that can forever remove ALL doubt about just how "good" we gotta be till death to earn/merit/be paid with/be rewarded with/DESERVE ...the Unmerited , Unearned , Never Deserving Gift of Endless Everlasting Life ?
Why do you suppose we've never ONCE seen your Roadmap into His Kingdom , when repeatedly asked to provide the exact "Cost" that you - Personally - must incur to have a Passing Grade on your Lifetime Report Card after physical death ?
Since it has no "PRICE TAG", then you do not have to believe, for if you have to believe, you are trying to earn your salvation. You do know that "believe" is a command, it is a work......
The true Gospel was under siege since the time of Jesus's earthly public ministry starting with the Pharisees, teachers of the law and all works based false doctrines. We see the exact same thing today. History keeps repeating itself.
The gospel is under siege by those who try to turn the gospel of John that was written for believers into a gospel for unbelievers.
The reason of course is they say all John speaks of is to believe, to try to get away from repentance.
That's so easy to debunk by simply reading the book just once.
Well explained , gents .
Undeniably , MacArthur's view of "faith" differs not in the least with Roman Catholicism , where it truly matters .
Lordship Salvation reduces to working for a Free and Never Deserving Gift , collapsing distinct categories (Discipleship Sanctification into Regeneration/which gives the status of Justification before God) .
One could never possibly have assurance of Everlasting Life based upon this Lordship Salvation teaching .
Contradiction of John 3:16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 always disbelieves in Jesus fow what He actually Certifies .
Although they add works at least Roman Catholics believe in repentance.
Tell us, what type of faith saves in John 3:16 and Eph 2? Is it a dead faith? or an obedient faith? and tell us when we are saved by faith, when do we become a child of God by faith? Gal 3:26-27 says that become children of God by faith when we are baptized into Christ, when we put Christ on.
John 3:16 is the believer who has been born of water and the Spirit, John 3:5 and keep reading John 3, you will see we must have an obedient faith, not a dead faith.
Eph 2:8-9 we are saved by grace through faith when we have been baptized into Christ, when we put Christ on.
You are saved by Faith,but it is a faith that works.
It's not a static intellectual faith.
It's a faith that motivates you. You start to do thing you'd never do before.
The Apostle Paul says in
Acts 26:18-20
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, SO THAT THEY MAY RECEIVE FORGIVENESS OF SINS and a place among those who are SANCTIFIED BY FAITH IN ME.’
19“So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven.
20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should REPENT AND TURN TO GOD (believe) and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
(works/lifestyle).
We become children of God by faith when we have been baptized into Christ, when we put Christ on. Gal 3:26-27
We are not saved at the point of faith .....there are unsaved believers in scripture, like John 12:42 " Many even the authorities BELIEVED IN HIM, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it......for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.." and in John 8:31 " Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him" and as you keep reading in v44 Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, " You are of your FATHER THE DEVIL, and your will is to do your fathers desire".
But GES would have to say they are still saved!!! GES says that you do not have to confess and that you can love the praise of man more than the praise of God and heaven will still be your home. And after you have been saved, GES believes that your father can be the devil, and you will still be saved for they had believed......
How many "works" gets the job done ? How "good" does your behavioral performance till death have to be to get a Passing Grade on your Lifetime Performance Report Card?
Where in Scripture can we find every conceivable category of human behavior assigned with a NECESSARY level (%) of performance till death that will be rewarded with the Free and Never Deserving Gift of Endless Everlasting Life ?
When is the Free Gift of Endless Everlasting Life given if works are required to earn or be rewarded with the works required ?
@@DannyLoyd
Odd thing is , on your presupposition , Noone is Eternally "saved" short of Perseverance until death in an Unknowable level (%) of hopefully good enough behavioral performance (works) .
So , whatever "point" you're attempting to affirm is a Non Starter , that Tops Out at equivocation borne of incoherence .
Working for a Free and Never Deserving Gift takes a great Toll on one's capacity to reason , very obviously .
Water Baptism isn't mentioned in Galatians 3:26-27 .
Brad Doskicil clarifies:
"Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:5; 11:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; Eph 4:5; Col 2:12)
The baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment a person believes in Jesus Christ for everlasting life. In the baptism of the Holy Spirit, every believer is baptized, immersed, or placed into union with Christ and becomes a member of His body (1 Cor 12:13). All who have been placed into the body of Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit are clothed with Christ and His righteousness (Gal 3:27). Believers are now in Christ. Believers have been taken, as it were, from the common group of humanity, that is, who they are in Adam. They are separated from that group and placed in Jesus Christ. This is unique and special. We are no longer in Adam, but in Christ.
Consequently, every church-age saint is identified with Christ and indwelled by the Holy Spirit so that he or she can walk in newness of life (Rom 6:3-4). There is unity produced by the baptism of the Holy Spirit because there is only one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one belief, one God and Father, and one baptism or identification (Eph 4:4-6). In other words, NT saints are only identified with Christ one time. God only needs to do it once!
In addition, the baptism of the Holy Spirit introduces something new: Jews and Gentiles together in one body. Thus, this baptism applies only to church-age saints. Old Testament saints were never placed into union with Christ. We know this because both John the Baptist and Jesus predicted the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:5; 11:16). It was not a reality at the time their predictions were uttered."
@@DannyLoyd
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A FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE WHICH WON’T SAVE? - JOHN 8:30-32
A Faith in Christ Alone Which Won’t Save? - John 8:30-32
June 1, 1988 by Bob Wilkin in Grace in Focus Articles
I recently heard a message by R. C. Sproul on John 8:30-32. The following so caught my attention that I transcribed it: “The Bible knows nothing of a salvation that is so cheap that all one has to do is embrace the idea that Jesus has died on the cross for them without having any demand placed upon that person to repent and to submit in obedience to Christ.” Dr. Sproul made it very clear that a person can believe in Jesus Christ as his Savior, his Sinbearer, and yet not get into heaven. He said that only those who endure in a life of discipleship will actually be eternally saved.
Is salvation “so cheap” that all a person needs to do is put his faith in Christ alone to save him from hell? Yes. Better yet, it is that FREE. Salvation from hell is not cheap. It is absolutely free. Grace is not grace if I must pay some price. Cheap suggests something which we purchase at a great discount relative to its value. Free suggests something which we don’t purchase at all- rather, something which we receive as a gift.
How, then, is John 8:30-32f. to be understood?
It is quite common to suggest that those mentioned in verse 30 who believed in Jesus did not “really” believe. Often it is said that they only had a superficial or temporary sort of faith. Jesus’ words and the crowd’s responses in verses 33 through 59 are given as proof of this conclusion.
I would suggest that such a conclusion is completely unwarranted. It fully misses the point of the verses in question. Four points should make this clear.
First, saving faith is clearly in view since John uses the expression “believe in”-pisteuo eis in Greek-in verses 31-32. In John 3:16 he used the same two words to say that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. The people referred to in John 8:31-32 certainly fall within the category of “whoever.” John 3:16 doesn’t qualify “whoever.” I love the old hymn of the faith, “Whosoever Surely Meaneth Me.” It is an error of the greatest magnitude to suggest that by pisteuo eis here John means a sort of faith which is impotent to save.
Second, the context clearly distinguishes between being a believer (v 30) and being a disciple (v 31-32). The former occurs at a point in time and is conditioned only upon believing in Christ. The latter occurs over time and is conditioned upon ongoing obedience and good works.
Third, the people referred to in verses 33 and following were clearly unsaved at the time Jesus was speaking with them (cf. v 37-41, 44-47). On three occasions Jesus told them that they did not believe Him (vv 45-47).
Fourth, it necessarily follows from points one through three above that the people being referred to in verses 30-32 are different from those being referred to in verses 33 and following. Notice how in the entire chapter Jesus was speaking to a large crowd made up primarily of Jews who heartily rejected Him and His message (see John 8:3,13,21-22,37, 40,44-47,48,52,59). Verses 30-32 form a sort of digression. In the midst of a sea of people who rejected Jesus there were some who believed in Him.
Therefore, there is no such thing as a faith in Jesus Christ alone as one’s Savior which will not save from eternal condemnation. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life. That is a promise that makes my day over and over again.1
NOTES
1If we were to adopt the view that the people mentioned in verse 30 only had a superficial faith in Christ and were not truly saved, absolute assurance of salvation would be impossible in this life. If we need to look at our lives and ask “Am I continuing in God’s Word sufficiently to know for sure that I am saved?” (v 31-32), we would at best be able to say, “I hope so.” Discipleship, the subject of verse 31 is a process involving degrees of progress. No one in this life achieves perfect disciple status (1 John 1:8, 10).
@@ok-qt4kr Yes it is water baptism, in Acts 2:38 " Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins.." and we know that this is water baptism by reading Acts 10:47-48 " Can any man forbid WATER FOR BAPTIZING THESE PEOPLE.....and he COMMANDED THEM TO BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS". So, baptism in the name of Jesus is water baptism and is for the remission of sins and it says that when they received the word and were baptized, the Lord ADDED THEM TO THE SAVED, Acts 2:41 & 47. So when you are baptized in the name of Jesus, water baptism, the Lord adds you to the saved.
It is something that we "MUST DO", in Acts 2:37 they asked " WHAT MUST WE DO?", you cannot DO HS baptism.
Col 2:12 is also water baptism, for like Acts 2, it is for the remission of sins, " Buried with Jesus in baptism, in which you were also RAISED with Jesus through faith in the working of God......God made alive together with him, HAVING FORGIVEN US ALL OUR TRESPASSES", that is done when you are baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins, which is water baptism. Also noticed you are BURIED/RAISED, that does not happen in HS baptism.
Romans 6 is water baptism, for it too is for remission of sins, v4 " BURIED with Jesus by baptism into death.....we know that our old self was crucified with Jesus so that the sinful body might be destroyed.....freed from sin". So, like Acts 2:38, Col 2, it is baptism for the remission of sins, which is water baptism, which I showed earlier and again you are BURIED/RAISED, you are not BURIED OR RAISED in HS Baptism.
Notice also that WATER BAPTISM is a COMMAND OF THE LORD, Acts 10:33 Peter says, " TO HEAR ALL THAT YOU HAVE BEEN COMMANDED BY THE LORD" and in v48 Peter COMMANDS THEM TO BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS, which is water baptism v47. Can we disobey the LORD'S COMMAND? If we refuse to be baptized in the name of Jesus, water baptism, we are a LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US". 1John 2:4 and we know that ALL LIARS WILL BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
In Acts 8, Philip and the Eunuch, v35 it says that Philip preached "Jesus" to the Eunuch, so how did the Eunuch know about WATER BAPTISM? when it says that Philip preached Jesus to him? And the Eunuch did not receive HS baptism.
There are only two occasions for HS baptism, Acts 2 and Acts 10, and neither saved, In Acts 8:18 " Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLES HANDS....", so after the apostles died, there was no one else who could lay on hands to receive the HS...
Baptism in the name of Jesus is water baptism and is for the forgiveness of sins, and the baptism in Col 2/ Romans 6 is water baptism, they are for the forgiveness of sins, just like Acts 2:38 and they add you to the saved.....
Tell us why the believers in Acts 8 had not received the HS yet? They had believed and were baptized in water, yet in v14 it says that they sent Peter and John to pray for them so that they would receive the HS, why didn't they already have it?
And yes it is water baptism in Gal 3:26-27, we have already seen in Acts 2 that those who were baptized in the name of Jesus, water baptism, the LORD ADDED THEM TO THE SAVED.....CHILDREN OF GOD
GES believes you are saved by a dead faith, not a saving, obedient faith.
GES believes that once you are saved, you can have an evil and unbelieving heart and fall away from the living God, Heb 3:12 and you still would have a saving faith.
GES believes that you can " Depart from the faith and give heed to doctrine of demons", 1Tim 4:1, and you would still have a saving faith.
GES believes that once you have been saved, you can walk in darkness, walk after the flesh and disobey the Lord's commands, never repent or confess, and you still have a saving faith.
But those of us who believe that after you have been saved, you must continue to believe, you have PUT ON CHRIST, must walk in the light, walk after the Spirit and obey the Lord' commands, we do not have a saving faith, we are trying to earn our salvation.
Yep , you said it .
You're "trying to earn our salvation" .
Couldn't be any clearer .
Couldn't be a more undeniable Contradiction of Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Romans 3:20-5:11,11:6,29 ; Titus 3:5 ; Philippians 3:9 ; & the book of Galatians .
It's also Crystal Clear that you reject 2 things :
1. The present possession of His Free Gift of Endless Everlasting Life .
Thus , one has a "Temporary/Conditional/Probationary" Life that wholly depends on one's Perseverance until death in being "hopefully good enough" to merit and earn one's place in the Kingdom .
2. That the Object and Content whereby one is irreversibly born again is the Person & Promise of Jesus which is found in every conceivable Evangelistic Everlasting Life passage in the Bible .
Since you don't think that His Perfect Substitutionary Sacrifice took all sins away as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" - Judicially - you the must Propitiate your own sins till death to earn that Free and Never Deserving Gift of Endless Life... because it's all about sins for you that remain under consideration at the Final Judgement , as opposed to whether one has been regenerated forever having received His PERFECT Righteousness by way of an imputed Gift , Free of all Earning/Merit .
So , your view clearly rejects the Objective possession of His Free Gift, this side of the grave .
Therefore , on your view , one Cannot be forever Justified before God and imputed His PERFECT Righteousness but instead must Work hard enough to earn that "Justification" status by a lifetime of working hard enough (without EVER knowing if it'll be "good enough") .
@@ok-qt4kr Thank you for affirming that you and GES believe that you are saved by a dead faith, that you believe you can " Depart from the faith and give heed to doctrine of demons" 1Tim 4:1 and you will still be saved. And thanks for affirming that you and GES believe you can have an " Evil and unbelieving heart that causes you to fall away from the living God", Heb 3:12 and you will still be saved
And thanks for affirming that you and GES believe that you can be " Severed from Christ and fall from grace", Gal 5:4, and you will still be saved.
And thanks for affirming that you and GES, believe that you can have, " Eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin and entice unsteady souls and have hearts trained in greed , FORSAKING THE RIGHT WAY THEY HAVE GONE ASTRAY, FOLLOWED THE WAY OF BALAAM....", and you believe that you will still be saved.
And thanks for affirming that you and GES believe if you WALK IN THE LIGHT, 1 John 1:7, WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT, Romans 8, OBEY THE LORDS COMMANDS, 1 John 2:4 and those who " HEARS THE WORDS OF CHRIST AND DOES THEM , Matt 7:24, That Jesus, Paul and the apostle Paul are teaching works salvation and are lost......this is what you and GES believe, thank you for affirming to everyone that Jesus, Paul and John are lost. They didn't know they were contradicting Eph 2, Romans 3 etc......