I was a mechanic on various 1960's military aircraft. Access panels that made maintenance "easy" was a relative term. Engine component changes always left me wishing for an extra elbow, 18" fingers, and a grip like the bite force on a crocodile.
This struck a chord, vis-a-vis modern automobiles and do-it-yourself maintenance/repair. What I needed to change the oil filter on my Honda was a chimpanzee with the grip of Godzilla and an extra elbow joint. (Or a lift. Would not have helped with the planes.) As a ship mechanic in the Coast Guard the issues were different. Removing a large valve for repair often involved getting personal with greasy pipes and supports with oily bilge water sloshing over you as the ship rolled. Not that difficult, but not very pleasant.
The biggest "fatal flaw" of the Thud was how the Johnson administration (insanely) micromanaged the Vietnam war. F-105s were sent on the same flight paths, at the same times, with the same call signs, to hit the same targets, day after day, and under ROE that practically guaranteed they would be set upon by more nimble enemy aircraft while without any fighter escorts. This is why Operation Bolo was such an effective operation--it turned all the Air Force's predictable habits upside down, and in the process eliminated nearly half the Mig-21s of the North Vietnamese military in one day. Op. Bolo TL;DR - A bunch of F-4s used the flight plans, call signs, etc. of the Thuds while on an ambush mission during the war. Downed 7 Mig-21s in minutes, when N.V. forces only had 16 to begin with.
Gotta love Col. Robin Olds! My gripe with this video was that they showed a number of shots of F-105G Wild Weasels, but never talked about what may have been the role the Thud was best known for . . . .
I'm no fan of Johnson or McNamara, but the geography and political realities of operating against North Vietnam necessitated much of what you're calling micromanaging. There are only so many ways into North Vietnam (which is smaller than most people realize) from Thailand or South Vietnam, and in an era predating GPS, navigation using landmarks was a necessity. The technology for night-time precision bombing didn't yet exist, so that meant daylight operations in good weather. The time and effort to coordinate large strike packages meant that they were necessarily going to get funnelled into predictable patterns. There was also simply no way to hide the swarm of tankers, EW aircraft, escorts and strikers from North Vietnamese radars (let alone guys on hilltops with binoculars and a radio) so there wasn't much point in over-complicating things and jeopardizing mutual protection just for the sake of a negligible chance at achieving surprise. If the weather was good, the North Vietnamese knew the Americans would be coming. Period. Also, North VIetnamese records show that Bolo resulted in 5 MiG-21's lost, not 7, and all of the pilots survived to fight another day. A huge loss, to be sure, but it was more the realization that the VPAF needed to re-evaluate and improve their tactics (which they did - their success rate increased dramatically after Bolo) than the loss of a few aircraft. The VPAF had many more MiG-21's in storage, repair or refuges in China than they actually fielded at a given time.
I was in the 67th TFS from 1965 till 1967..I think the Thud was a great aircraft and the pilots who flew them had nerves of steel and huge balls..period!
@@sandman93449dmafter some digging I found a book written by a 105 crew chief about his experience deployed to Korat - who knew we were smart enough to do that. I’m looking forward to reading it
While performing a training exercise at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson AZ, I was witness to a f-105 taking off back in 1986. It was recalled from the “bone yard” and was to be sent out to be a target drone. Shame it was going to be blown from the sky. But I was ecstatic to be able to see and hear one take off. Right place and right time.
I was a crew chief on the 105 1965-67, Rolling Thunder, Korat. I saw one return with most of the paint burned off from behind radome. The pilot claimed a speed of Mach 2.3. Another point,we all called it the Thud as a reference to “ big chief Thunderthud” from the Howdy Doody show. I never heard of any other genesis for the name. Finally an F-15 buddy of mine related an experience: during an exercise at Nellis he jumped a Thud lower, headed in the opposite direction. What happened? “ We were on the deck and just walked away from me! “ Nuff said 😊
The high maintenance associated with the Thud was the J75 had to be at 100% nearly the whole flight. Considering the Thud carried nearly twice the weight of a bomb load of a B-17, while weighing only 20% lighter (52,000 vs 65,000) lead to the huge upkeep to keep them in the air.
Your information is flawed. The J75cwas capable of returning pilots to base after sustaining such damage as to never run again after shut down ( beyond repair) The biggest flaw, early on was no redundancy for the hydraulic system. This was corrected by a retrofit program. The next problem was the pilots oxygen system. Pilots complained of getting a face full of jet fuel fumes during refueling often making them I'll. Don't know if they ever fixed that one.
The issues you mentioned with F-105s trying to aerial refuel from slow propellor-driven tankers, such as the KB-50s and KC-97s was by no means restricted to the F-105, but all jet fighters. Auxiliary jet engines were added to the wings of some KB-50s and KC-97s to increase the safety margin, but the situation wasn't resolved until the all-jet KC-135 entered service. The KC-135 continues to be the most numerous aerial tanker in the world. The F-105 was one of the few fighters that could refuel from almost any tanker without modification. As your video shows, it could use both the probe & drogue and the flying boom methods of aerial refueling, enabling it to refuel from any tanker available. The flying boom method was preferred by the Air Force because it could transfer much more fuel in a shorter length of time, which is crucial when refueling large bombers or multiple fighters. The F-105 pilots liked the internal refueling probe, since when they visited a rival air base - especially a Navy or Marine air base - they could taxi past their rivals and extend the refueling boom - thus giving a friendly "finger" to anybody watching. Thanks for a great video on a truly amazing (as were its crews) aircraft.
The "Wild Weasel" variants of the F-105 remained in service until early 1984, at which point they were replaced by the specialized F-4G "Wild Weasel V".
Not exactly, the f4 could not perform SEAD operations as efficiently as the 105 because it's loadout was puny. F105 Gs were recalled to Vietnam for that roll when the F4s failed. The 105 Gs were superceded by F16s in the late 70's. Some 105 Gs continuing service with ANG units until 1984.
Actual F-105 Mig kills was 27.5. 24.5 with the 20 mm M-61 cannon; 2 with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles; 1 with 20 mm & AIM-9 combined. The .5 kill was a share with an F-4. I supported F-105's with munitions for 4 years including 1 year at Korat RTAFB in Thailand.
I love the F-105, mostly because it had a great couple episodes on history channels “Dogfights” particularly the long odds episode. Big fast and mean. Finally got to see one in a museum at the old SAC base in Denver. Such a shame that so many got destroyed over its service life
I remember in pilot training being #1 for takeoff behind 2 Thuds on the runway. The hard lighting afterburners scared the shit out of me. My instructor got a laugh out of that.
While the F-8 gets the credit of being "The Last Gunfighter," the F-105 is the plane that really deserves this credit. Contrary to many the information provided by many commentors, the F-8 was not designed with a gun as its primary weapon, it was designed with the AIM-9D as its primary weapon, and in combat, only two F-8 kills were done with cannon, the rest being Sidewinder kills. The F-105 by comparison had a gun as a primary aerial weapon and in Vietnam, had 25 gun kills, vs the F-8's two gun kills.
I found that nuke deploy telescoping device you mention at a crash site in the Piutes mtns. next to China Lake Naval Weapons Test center in the Mojave Desert. I read they had problems with the nuke tumbling up into the belly at release going over Mach 1. They ended up reshaping the nuke to fix the problem. The aluminum forging that was the attachment point for the bomb had a sticker on it telling the ground crew to put "lever B in position A for Special Weapons lock." We all know what a Special Weapon is.
Man did this fighter-bomber take a beating during Operation Rolling Thunder. Although the way they used it in Vietnam was not the way it was supposed to be used.
F-105's we're given the toughest ,toughest,longest,most heavily defended,and most important targets.Still kicked total ass and shot down 29 Migs in the process.27 of those 29 we're with the cannon.The other 2 we're Mig-21"s shot down with sidewinders. Typical Republic,always doing the toughest jobs and coming out in fine style.
Interesting overview, thank you for featuring the F-105. Some nit noys: It was the 4th TFW's 335th TFS, the Chiefs, not the 355th TFS, that first put the F-105 into operational service in 1958. Last flight of the F-105 was by an F-105F on March 10, 1984, from Hill AFB, Utah to Chanute AFB, Illinois.
So what was the fatal flaw? By all accounts it was an admirable aircraft that served with distinction. It just needed more servicing than it was given.
According to wikipedia it's the only airframe recalled due to losses. But it was also used for Wild Weasels, so it had to be fast. Honestly though wars are won on logistics, and an airframe demanding to much logistics limits their effectiveness.
My father flew an F105RC in France. One day he was flying home from Algiers and the altimeter froze. He wound up flying into a mountain because he thought he was higher. I found this out from an ATC.
The hydraulic system. All of the surface controls needed hydraulic boost to operate. Unfortunately, the layout of the hydraulic system was so poor so when one was shot/failed, it often caused backup systems to fail too. Without hydraulic boost, the pilot could not control the plane and had to eject.
6:30 The refueling issue you discussed and the associated video was using was a propeller driven aircraft; probably a KB-29 or KB-50. Once the KC-135 came into service, speed differential disappeared. BTW nice crop on the video. The reason probe and drogue was replaced by the extended boom wasn't for "control" of the process, it was because the boom is far superior in speed of refueling. Still waiting for the "fatal flaw".
The fatal flaw…was the fact that plane was utilized in the wrong way during Vietnam War, hence the high casualty rate, and the only plane to be retired due to heavy operational losses
My father was a US Air Force mechanic. There iss a common picture of a Thunderchief that landed with an unexploded missile in its tail section. That was one of the Thunderchiefs he worked on.
Worth noting here the Thud had close to 30 kills during Vietnam, including a handful by gun... Pretty impressive when all things considered. It was obviously at a disadvantage in that role, but still managed to hit back a few times.
Thanks for the awesome videos Simon, they keep me somewhat sane at work. Any chance of a video on the best cancelled plane the tsr2. Or an original megaprojects the Ironbridge (in Shropshire, birthplace of the industrial revolution).
The fatal flaw was the ridiculous rules of engagement list the pilots were forced to fly by. Not allowed to engage enemy airfield or SAM sites until they were too heavily defended. A lot of great men lost their lives and suffered greatly as a direct result of the command's incompetence.
When you mention the Thunderstreak, the photo used was the Thunderflash, the photo-recon version with the solid nose and intakes way back like the 105.
The 'fatal flaw' of the 105 was the horizontal tail. This could easily be disabled if the hydraulic system was damaged and invariably led to the loss of the jet. Later, they modded the jets so that the tail would lock in a position where continued flight was possible when this happened.
Great video! Let's not forget the Thud's contribution to testing and establishing the Wild Weasel (WW) missions, and, of course, let's not forget the men who carried out the first WW missions, that XX large cojones
My hat's off to all who flew this aircraft. I grew up next to an airport that was commercial on one side and Air National Guard on the other. They flew F-84s as their first jet fighter (I think) but these were replaced by F-105s. I loved that aircraft, it was awesome to see them land with the parachute deployment.
Over half of the Thud inventory was lost in Vietnam and since the production run had ended there simply weren’t enough aircraft left to keep the type in front line service. Hence what was left was transferred to the ANG, with the exception of the later F and G twin seat models that were deployed as Wild Weasels.
I love ya, but this was the first documentary that told me something without telling me anything. Surely we could highlight the groundspeed of the low-level D's, and the fact that about half of them were shot down or lost. The switch to boom refueling is also pretty important - I think you just glossed over that. Anyway, it won't stop me, but I think there's an opportunity to dig deeper into the D. Oh and see if Ken Hallmark is still alive. He flew 105's and 106's and was my hero growing up.
the overhead shot of a 4-ship with 1 Thud still silver and by the look of it a B-66 in the lead are on a "Skyspot" mission (@ 9:18). The Thuds lacked the type of radar to do it themselves, so they would follow the '66 and bomb blind on its command in conjunction with ground radar guiding the '66. Pilots would sometimes drop 1 bomb each and then, since they were released, go truck hunting. The flaw about the engine use is correct. Due to prolonged use at or near full power and more use of the burner, the engine was "aging" faster than expected. Flying along all safe and sound, then the warning lights and alarms go off and its time to eject. The aircraft were lost over North Vietnam or Laos, but then it happened to a Thud right after takeoff from Korat. From the wreckage they discovered that the engine shredded itself & threw the blades which sliced through everything in the rear of the aircraft.
Worth noting: bomb load was half again the short-range capacity of the WW2 heavy bomber, the B-24 Liberator. Heavy for something that looks like a fighter maybe, the Thud could haul some bombs.
Simon needs to make a video on Wild Weasels/SEADs in general. (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses -- basically they go in, get lit up by the surface-to-air missile radars, and then fire a missile that rides the enemy's radar beam back to the source, hopefully before the SAM gets to them.)
That's where the phrase "go ballistic" comes from -- once the SAM is launched, if the antiradar missile takes out the ground-based radar or its crew shut it down to try to avoid the ARM, the SAM is unguided and flies like an artillery shell on a ballistic trajectory.
I was at the Air Force museum in Dayton Ohio a few years ago. They have a F-105. While I was looking at it, an older gentleman walked up to me and said "I flew that plane". HE seemed about the right age to have flown one, so I thought that was pretty cool. But I actually didn't fully understand him at first. He meant he flew *that* plane. The actual plane we were looking right at. I was so caught off guard that I didn't even really say much, just stood there. I hope he didn't think I was ignoring him, it just took a while for me to process, and by the time I recovered he was talking to someone else.
Designed for an entirely different kind of war, the skill and resourcefulness required of the Air Force pilots to adapt themselves and the plane to the circumstances of this unfortunate war cannot be overstated. The F-4 Phantom has a similar tale.
I first encountered the 105's nickname of 'Thud' at about the same time as reading that it was *possibly* a derogatory reference to the sound of one hitting the ground (based on the heavy loss rate in Vietnam). Of course, it turns out that this was bunk and 'Thud' for 'Thunderchief' was apparently just a simple flip on the name of the Howdy Doody Show character, the wonderfully PC (not) Chief Thunderthud. At least, that's what I've since read. If so, then it was kind of a cute name all along. That's nice.
@@joelb8653 It's a good book, but pretty self-serving. Jack Broughton screwed his career, and spent the rest of his life trying to justify his actions. A better book (IMHO) is "When Thunder Rolled" by Ed Rasimus.
My dad commanded an F-105 squadron at Kadena AB (67th TFS). During his time on Okinawa he was ordered to take 12 Thuds to South Korea shortly after USS Pueblo was seized by North Korea in January 1968. The plan was to immediately fly the 12 F-105s into Wonsan Harbor, North Korea, and sink the captured Pueblo at all costs. That plan was never executed. Following the Pueblo Incident, my dad then flew 140 missions during Vietnam in the Thud with the 354th and 357th Tactical Fighter Squadrons at Takhli Royal Thai AFB. Thankfully he made it back home safely from his year long combat deployment. My dad flew many different aircraft during his 25 years in the Air Force, but the F-105 was by far his favorite.
This is the second video that I would consider click bait Simon. The other was about the A-10. The F-105 was a ground breaking aircraft in many ways. Much like the F-111 years later. I'm tired of hearing the negative comments about either machine by the negative thinking, uninformed who cling to the one bit of info they know about an aircraft...then spew words like they are an expert. Because of designed wingloading for wicked fast low leve missions, tanking off prop driven tankers was EXTREMELY difficult. CODOs to all who did this before the advent of the KC135. IT WAS AN AWESOME aircraft, with an amazing engine...powerful and rugged. Know to suck in all sorts of things from wrenches, bolts, even patches in the inlets, and just keep running. TRY POSITIVE TITLES rather than negative BUUL SHIET ones just to get the "click"
It's about time you did a video about the F-105 Thunderchief. The largest and fastest single engine jet of its time, advanced avionics and systems. Down on the deck fully loaded F-105s were out running F-4 phantoms that were suppose to escort them. Dirty Deeds... THUNDERCHIEF!!!
G'day, Wrong...! The line of The SONG, Was "DONE DIRT CHEAP....!" Acca-Dacca would not have known Nor recognised an F-105 if it fell out of the Sky & crashed on their Audience at a Concert. AC-DC Had ZERO Interest in Unkle Spam's Fossil-Carbon farting Little Hairygoplanes. Just(ifiably ?) sayin'. Such is life, Have a good one... ;-p Ciao !
@@abitofapickle6255 No worries, Apparently there's a Big Shitpotful of individuals who Genuinely thunk The Origidiginal Lyric was "FunDurrrChief...!" So, One felt kinda Duty-bound to Offer a Mite of Correctikation... (lol !). ;-p Ciao !
Glad several people picked up on this. As I understand it the Wild Weasels’ job was to bait enemy missile sites and radar-guided AA guns into firing to take them out in advance of the bombers/strike aircraft. A professional target, in other words. It took a pilot with the right combination of skill, guts and luck to do this job. It seems to my the high loss rate should be seen in this context. A lot of strike aircraft were undoubtedly saved by the skill and sacrifices of the Wild Weasels.
F-105's shot down 29 Migs . 27 of them with the cannon. Other two were Mig-21's shot down with sidewinders ,both fired from the "F" midel. But the "Thud" carried more ordance over the 17th parrellel and dropped it on target more than anything else out there. It was the key TAC strike aircraft always given the longest,toughest missions in the thickest most dangerous environments. The losses,don't blame the Thud,you can blame big-mouth "Magnamara" on that one.
Can’t believe that I heard you confuse stalling the aircraft with stalling the engine (time 7:03) An aerodynamic stall has nothing whatsoever to do with the engine.
Granted, that is about the worst backhanded compliment you can give to a plane. Not that I disagree (It is one of the best looking jets of all time), but it really is a sad state of affairs when something that so many people have spent so much time on, ends up remembered for looking good and nothing else.
There was no chute to recover the aircraft during a spin. Loss of control required an ejection. Aircraft that had drouges could deploy as a last ditch effort to stabilise the spin but there is no way a drouge would safely land the plane.
The F-105 had a drag chute, like most fighters of it's time. You could land the plane without using it but you'd better have plenty of runway available. Spins were recoverable in the F-105; loss of control did not demand ejecting from the aircraft unless you were below 15,000 feet.
Was stationed at George, AFB as a Crew Chief with the last squadron of active duty F-105 G WW’s . From there they went full time reserves Dobbins , Atlanta. Good times…..
We Brits and the French flew the Sepecat Jaguar in a similar role well into the noughties. A later design using twin engines but has similar lines to my eye. Used during Gulf Wars and an perennial star turn at Red Flag Iirc. Some export nations still flying them?
Alexander Kartveli (Kartvelishvili) was a Georgian man (not a Russian!!!) the father of American aviation. His name and role are now forgotten by the American nation!!!. If his name is to be respected, America should give the retired a-10 (at least a few) to the Georgian Air Force.
Hey Simon, I've got a Megaprojects idea for you! Every year the US government spends billions of dollars with thousands of people involved to fight Wildland Fires. There are tons of different moving parts and types of fighting forces for the operation but I think it's incredibly interesting and surprisingly overlooked. Hope you feel the same!
Hey Simon, why are you set to 1.5 speed. I had to check the playback speed multiple times just to understand why everything is so much quicker than usual.
You missed the reason for the nuke internal bomb bay. SAC was getting all the money. TAC wanted a cut and a key to that was having an internal bomb bay for the nuke. So, a tactical nuke delivery system was greated, the F-105. The first squadron of F-105s in Vietnam attacked a bridge for their first target. That was the first time those pilots flew an executed a strike with conventunal bombs.
Please get it right. Refuelling a 105 at low speed risks stalling the aircraft- not the engine (like in a car!). It was called 'Thud' because that was the noise when it hit the deck after being shot down. It was the 355 Tactical Fighter Squadron, not 'Air' squadron. Even your pic shows 355 TFS! Among the things you missed out, were the activities of the two seater 105s as 'Wild Weasels'- maybe scope for a seperate video, or the fact that the there were over 700 made, and about half the fleet are still in Viet Nam- albeit highly dispersed....
Perhaps the 105's "fatal flaw" was that the conflict it was designed for was never fought? It was meant to dash through the river valleys of Warsaw Pact nations, vaporizing cities and industrial targets, hauling ass all the way in and out. Several perfectly good (and some excellent) aircraft had the same problem in the Cold War! Among them were high-altitude interceptors like the Su-15, F-106, Lightning, and MiG-25; nuclear bombers such as the V-force, B-58, Tu-22M, and XB-70; maritime strike aircraft such as the Buccaneer. And frankly, that's the whole reason we're around to watch RUclips and gainsay Simon Whistler on any number of topics he hosts content on.
When talking about how it only does mach 1.5, that’s the speed it can do while flying very low on the deck on route too bomb targets isn’t it? I thought I heard that while flying far higher , it can most likely go faster than that
The Thud nickname was a sick joke about the sound the 105 made when it crashed into the Vietnamese jungle. Later, it is revised to be about the weight of the plane when it landed.
I thought it was a reference to Chief Thunderthud, a now politically incorrect character on the 1950's Howdy Doody children's show. Most of the pilots in Vietnam were of the age to have watched it in their youth.
I might be wrong but I think the "shockwave" picture is not accurate. The given picture is of a low density condensation ring. To get an image of the true shockwave consider a photo taken with the Schlieren photography. 😊 5:30
Republic/ Fairchild made some very tough planes but they aren't as flashy as their counterparts at their time. There are a lot of people wanting to see the Thunderbolt II go the way of the dodo as people think they no longer have a use.
0:34 *Georgian born. Yes, Georgia (the one in the Caucasus region, not the one in the US, obviously) was under the rule of the Russian Empire at the time, but given the tumoltuous history of Russian-Georgian relations, filled with wars, conquests and genocide, I'd say Kartveli would be at least pissed to be called "Russian-born".
When I joined the DCANG '82, they still had 105s. After I returned from training (14 months later), they had switched to F4s. Both tough to work on, as far as our equipment was concerned.
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How do pilots stay awake on long missions?
45% sweep? Degrees maybe?😬
Dirty deeds, thunder chief.
@@CAP198462 -- love that song.
@@duanepigden1337I love that band
I was a mechanic on various 1960's military aircraft. Access panels that made maintenance "easy" was a relative term. Engine component changes always left me wishing for an extra elbow, 18" fingers, and a grip like the bite force on a crocodile.
This struck a chord, vis-a-vis modern automobiles and do-it-yourself maintenance/repair. What I needed to change the oil filter on my Honda was a chimpanzee with the grip of Godzilla and an extra elbow joint.
(Or a lift. Would not have helped with the planes.)
As a ship mechanic in the Coast Guard the issues were different. Removing a large valve for repair often involved getting personal with greasy pipes and supports with oily bilge water sloshing over you as the ship rolled. Not that difficult, but not very pleasant.
The biggest "fatal flaw" of the Thud was how the Johnson administration (insanely) micromanaged the Vietnam war. F-105s were sent on the same flight paths, at the same times, with the same call signs, to hit the same targets, day after day, and under ROE that practically guaranteed they would be set upon by more nimble enemy aircraft while without any fighter escorts. This is why Operation Bolo was such an effective operation--it turned all the Air Force's predictable habits upside down, and in the process eliminated nearly half the Mig-21s of the North Vietnamese military in one day.
Op. Bolo TL;DR - A bunch of F-4s used the flight plans, call signs, etc. of the Thuds while on an ambush mission during the war. Downed 7 Mig-21s in minutes, when N.V. forces only had 16 to begin with.
Not to mention that the White House leaked details to the French who told the enemy.
Gotta love Col. Robin Olds!
My gripe with this video was that they showed a number of shots of F-105G Wild Weasels, but never talked about what may have been the role the Thud was best known for . . . .
I'm no fan of Johnson or McNamara, but the geography and political realities of operating against North Vietnam necessitated much of what you're calling micromanaging. There are only so many ways into North Vietnam (which is smaller than most people realize) from Thailand or South Vietnam, and in an era predating GPS, navigation using landmarks was a necessity.
The technology for night-time precision bombing didn't yet exist, so that meant daylight operations in good weather. The time and effort to coordinate large strike packages meant that they were necessarily going to get funnelled into predictable patterns. There was also simply no way to hide the swarm of tankers, EW aircraft, escorts and strikers from North Vietnamese radars (let alone guys on hilltops with binoculars and a radio) so there wasn't much point in over-complicating things and jeopardizing mutual protection just for the sake of a negligible chance at achieving surprise. If the weather was good, the North Vietnamese knew the Americans would be coming. Period.
Also, North VIetnamese records show that Bolo resulted in 5 MiG-21's lost, not 7, and all of the pilots survived to fight another day. A huge loss, to be sure, but it was more the realization that the VPAF needed to re-evaluate and improve their tactics (which they did - their success rate increased dramatically after Bolo) than the loss of a few aircraft. The VPAF had many more MiG-21's in storage, repair or refuges in China than they actually fielded at a given time.
I was in the 67th TFS from 1965 till 1967..I think the Thud was a great aircraft and the pilots who flew them had nerves of steel and huge balls..period!
@@sandman93449dmafter some digging I found a book written by a 105 crew chief about his experience deployed to Korat - who knew we were smart enough to do that. I’m looking forward to reading it
While performing a training exercise at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson AZ, I was witness to a f-105 taking off back in 1986. It was recalled from the “bone yard” and was to be sent out to be a target drone. Shame it was going to be blown from the sky. But I was ecstatic to be able to see and hear one take off. Right place and right time.
I was a crew chief on the 105 1965-67, Rolling Thunder, Korat. I saw one return with most of the paint burned off from behind radome. The pilot claimed a speed of Mach 2.3. Another point,we all called it the Thud as a reference to “ big chief Thunderthud” from the Howdy Doody show. I never heard of any other genesis for the name. Finally an F-15 buddy of mine related an experience: during an exercise at Nellis he jumped a Thud lower, headed in the opposite direction. What happened? “ We were on the deck and just walked away from me! “ Nuff said 😊
The high maintenance associated with the Thud was the J75 had to be at 100% nearly the whole flight. Considering the Thud carried nearly twice the weight of a bomb load of a B-17, while weighing only 20% lighter (52,000 vs 65,000) lead to the huge upkeep to keep them in the air.
Your information is flawed. The J75cwas capable of returning pilots to base after sustaining such damage as to never run again after shut down ( beyond repair) The biggest flaw, early on was no redundancy for the hydraulic system. This was corrected by a retrofit program. The next problem was the pilots oxygen system. Pilots complained of getting a face full of jet fuel fumes during refueling often making them I'll. Don't know if they ever fixed that one.
The issues you mentioned with F-105s trying to aerial refuel from slow propellor-driven tankers, such as the KB-50s and KC-97s was by no means restricted to the F-105, but all jet fighters. Auxiliary jet engines were added to the wings of some KB-50s and KC-97s to increase the safety margin, but the situation wasn't resolved until the all-jet KC-135 entered service. The KC-135 continues to be the most numerous aerial tanker in the world. The F-105 was one of the few fighters that could refuel from almost any tanker without modification. As your video shows, it could use both the probe & drogue and the flying boom methods of aerial refueling, enabling it to refuel from any tanker available. The flying boom method was preferred by the Air Force because it could transfer much more fuel in a shorter length of time, which is crucial when refueling large bombers or multiple fighters. The F-105 pilots liked the internal refueling probe, since when they visited a rival air base - especially a Navy or Marine air base - they could taxi past their rivals and extend the refueling boom - thus giving a friendly "finger" to anybody watching. Thanks for a great video on a truly amazing (as were its crews) aircraft.
And they were not stalling the engine, they were stalling the wings!
@@georgegonzalez2476 True dat!
In Thailand they'd raise the probe to give the finger after they finished their 100 Missions to North Vietnam as well.
The "Wild Weasel" variants of the F-105 remained in service until early 1984, at which point they were replaced by the specialized F-4G "Wild Weasel V".
1983.
Not exactly, the f4 could not perform SEAD operations as efficiently as the 105 because it's loadout was puny. F105 Gs were recalled to Vietnam for that roll when the F4s failed. The 105 Gs were superceded by F16s in the late 70's. Some 105 Gs continuing service with ANG units until 1984.
Actual F-105 Mig kills was 27.5. 24.5 with the 20 mm M-61 cannon; 2 with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles; 1 with 20 mm & AIM-9 combined. The .5 kill was a share with an F-4. I supported F-105's with munitions for 4 years including 1 year at Korat RTAFB in Thailand.
I love the F-105, mostly because it had a great couple episodes on history channels “Dogfights” particularly the long odds episode. Big fast and mean. Finally got to see one in a museum at the old SAC base in Denver. Such a shame that so many got destroyed over its service life
My dad was a Fire Control Specialist (weapons electronics maintenance) for the 105 during Vietnam. He loved those planes.
Korat or Takhli or South Vietnam?
Big up to your father, i love the 105, this is my favorite vietnam era jet.
I remember in pilot training being #1 for takeoff behind 2 Thuds on the runway. The hard lighting afterburners scared the shit out of me. My instructor got a laugh out of that.
While the F-8 gets the credit of being "The Last Gunfighter," the F-105 is the plane that really deserves this credit. Contrary to many the information provided by many commentors, the F-8 was not designed with a gun as its primary weapon, it was designed with the AIM-9D as its primary weapon, and in combat, only two F-8 kills were done with cannon, the rest being Sidewinder kills. The F-105 by comparison had a gun as a primary aerial weapon and in Vietnam, had 25 gun kills, vs the F-8's two gun kills.
I found that nuke deploy telescoping device you mention at a crash site in the Piutes mtns. next to China Lake Naval Weapons Test center in the Mojave Desert. I read they had problems with the nuke tumbling up into the belly at release going over Mach 1. They ended up reshaping the nuke to fix the problem. The aluminum forging that was the attachment point for the bomb had a sticker on it telling the ground crew to put "lever B in position A for Special Weapons lock." We all know what a Special Weapon is.
Man did this fighter-bomber take a beating during Operation Rolling Thunder. Although the way they used it in Vietnam was not the way it was supposed to be used.
It only took a beating because the use of it was poorly planed.
F-105's we're given the toughest ,toughest,longest,most heavily defended,and most important targets.Still kicked total ass and shot down 29 Migs in the process.27 of those 29 we're with the cannon.The other 2 we're Mig-21"s shot down with sidewinders. Typical Republic,always doing the toughest jobs and coming out in fine style.
@@richardmontana5864 Yes they did some GREAT work. 👍
F105s were more for a fast strike anticipated against Soviet targets and yet pitted in Vietnam against AAA and also MiG 17 and MiG 21s
Interesting overview, thank you for featuring the F-105. Some nit noys: It was the 4th TFW's 335th TFS, the Chiefs, not the 355th TFS, that first put the F-105 into operational service in 1958. Last flight of the F-105 was by an F-105F on March 10, 1984, from Hill AFB, Utah to Chanute AFB, Illinois.
So what was the fatal flaw? By all accounts it was an admirable aircraft that served with distinction. It just needed more servicing than it was given.
According to wikipedia it's the only airframe recalled due to losses. But it was also used for Wild Weasels, so it had to be fast.
Honestly though wars are won on logistics, and an airframe demanding to much logistics limits their effectiveness.
It was useless when sub or transonic. It would only perform at above Mach1
My father flew an F105RC in France. One day he was flying home from Algiers and the altimeter froze. He wound up flying into a mountain because he thought he was higher. I found this out from an ATC.
SAMs
The hydraulic system. All of the surface controls needed hydraulic boost to operate. Unfortunately, the layout of the hydraulic system was so poor so when one was shot/failed, it often caused backup systems to fail too. Without hydraulic boost, the pilot could not control the plane and had to eject.
6:30 The refueling issue you discussed and the associated video was using was a propeller driven aircraft; probably a KB-29 or KB-50. Once the KC-135 came into service, speed differential disappeared. BTW nice crop on the video. The reason probe and drogue was replaced by the extended boom wasn't for "control" of the process, it was because the boom is far superior in speed of refueling. Still waiting for the "fatal flaw".
The fatal flaw…was the fact that plane was utilized in the wrong way during Vietnam War, hence the high casualty rate, and the only plane to be retired due to heavy operational losses
The Fairey Battle wants a word with the Thud.
My father was a US Air Force mechanic. There iss a common picture of a Thunderchief that landed with an unexploded missile in its tail section. That was one of the Thunderchiefs he worked on.
It feels like Simon has been set to 1.5 times his normal speed lol
Yeah, he's getting all Dark Skies on us.
Caffeine
As his speed goes up, his diction goes down.
@@rictube4716 ... and he's confusing percent and degrees (2:39)
Worth noting here the Thud had close to 30 kills during Vietnam, including a handful by gun...
Pretty impressive when all things considered. It was obviously at a disadvantage in that role, but still managed to hit back a few times.
I remember being surprised how big these are IRL compared to other planes.
Thanks for the awesome videos Simon, they keep me somewhat sane at work.
Any chance of a video on the best cancelled plane the tsr2.
Or an original megaprojects the Ironbridge (in Shropshire, birthplace of the industrial revolution).
The fatal flaw was the ridiculous rules of engagement list the pilots were forced to fly by. Not allowed to engage enemy airfield or SAM sites until they were too heavily defended. A lot of great men lost their lives and suffered greatly as a direct result of the command's incompetence.
Thats a fact. Old men in suit planning and young men in the field dying. Vietnam was all politically motivated.
Shouldn't have supported paranoia fueled McCarthyism, McNamara and Kissinger.
When you mention the Thunderstreak, the photo used was the Thunderflash, the photo-recon version with the solid nose and intakes way back like the 105.
The 'fatal flaw' of the 105 was the horizontal tail. This could easily be disabled if the hydraulic system was damaged and invariably led to the loss of the jet. Later, they modded the jets so that the tail would lock in a position where continued flight was possible when this happened.
The F-105 did not have a "45 'percent' swept wing" (2:39) but a 45 degree* swept wing.
Great video! Let's not forget the Thud's contribution to testing and establishing the Wild Weasel (WW) missions, and, of course, let's not forget the men who carried out the first WW missions, that XX large cojones
My hat's off to all who flew this aircraft. I grew up next to an airport that was commercial on one side and Air National Guard on the other. They flew F-84s as their first jet fighter (I think) but these were replaced by F-105s. I loved that aircraft, it was awesome to see them land with the parachute deployment.
The THUD would outrun ANY plane at treetop levels. Pilots called it " on the deck"
Over half of the Thud inventory was lost in Vietnam and since the production run had ended there simply weren’t enough aircraft left to keep the type in front line service. Hence what was left was transferred to the ANG, with the exception of the later F and G twin seat models that were deployed as Wild Weasels.
I love ya, but this was the first documentary that told me something without telling me anything. Surely we could highlight the groundspeed of the low-level D's, and the fact that about half of them were shot down or lost. The switch to boom refueling is also pretty important - I think you just glossed over that. Anyway, it won't stop me, but I think there's an opportunity to dig deeper into the D.
Oh and see if Ken Hallmark is still alive. He flew 105's and 106's and was my hero growing up.
the overhead shot of a 4-ship with 1 Thud still silver and by the look of it a B-66 in the lead are on a "Skyspot" mission
(@ 9:18). The Thuds lacked the type of radar to do it themselves, so they would follow the '66 and bomb blind on its command in conjunction with ground radar guiding the '66. Pilots would sometimes drop 1 bomb each and then, since they were released, go truck hunting. The flaw about the engine use is correct. Due to prolonged use at or near full power and more use of the burner, the engine was "aging" faster than expected. Flying along all safe and sound, then the warning lights and alarms go off and its time to eject. The aircraft were lost over North Vietnam or Laos, but then it happened to a Thud right after takeoff from Korat. From the wreckage they discovered that the engine shredded itself & threw the blades which sliced through everything in the rear of the aircraft.
Worth noting: bomb load was half again the short-range capacity of the WW2 heavy bomber, the B-24 Liberator. Heavy for something that looks like a fighter maybe, the Thud could haul some bombs.
10:05 "the Migs" proceeds to show a pic of a MiG17, MiG21 and...2 MiG 28s
No mention of the two seater F105 F and G models running the Wild Weasel missions 😞
Simon needs to make a video on Wild Weasels/SEADs in general. (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses -- basically they go in, get lit up by the surface-to-air missile radars, and then fire a missile that rides the enemy's radar beam back to the source, hopefully before the SAM gets to them.)
That's where the phrase "go ballistic" comes from -- once the SAM is launched, if the antiradar missile takes out the ground-based radar or its crew shut it down to try to avoid the ARM, the SAM is unguided and flies like an artillery shell on a ballistic trajectory.
Sleepy Weasel? ;)
Fs were trainers. Gs were wild weasels.
Simon is all about drama and innuendo. Facts and rational discussion of complex systems is not his thing...
1:15 - Mid roll ads
2:35 - Back to the video
ReVanced ftw.
Good feature of a great plane! You failed to mention that they lasted in the ANG until the Mid 80's retiring them from Hill AFB, Utah.
This guy doesn't know his aviation history.F-105 turned out to be a winner fighting a war it was not designed for.
Just saw this plane today. Thx for all the info
I was at the Air Force museum in Dayton Ohio a few years ago. They have a F-105. While I was looking at it, an older gentleman walked up to me and said "I flew that plane". HE seemed about the right age to have flown one, so I thought that was pretty cool. But I actually didn't fully understand him at first. He meant he flew *that* plane. The actual plane we were looking right at. I was so caught off guard that I didn't even really say much, just stood there. I hope he didn't think I was ignoring him, it just took a while for me to process, and by the time I recovered he was talking to someone else.
Love those adverts that start mid-sentance..keeps you on your toes
Designed for an entirely different kind of war, the skill and resourcefulness required of the Air Force pilots to adapt themselves and the plane to the circumstances of this unfortunate war cannot be overstated. The F-4 Phantom has a similar tale.
So no mention of the F and G models? The 2 seat wild weasel missions? Hope this is only part 1 of the story.
I first encountered the 105's nickname of 'Thud' at about the same time as reading that it was *possibly* a derogatory reference to the sound of one hitting the ground (based on the heavy loss rate in Vietnam).
Of course, it turns out that this was bunk and 'Thud' for 'Thunderchief' was apparently just a simple flip on the name of the Howdy Doody Show character, the wonderfully PC (not) Chief Thunderthud. At least, that's what I've since read. If so, then it was kind of a cute name all along.
That's nice.
The wasp waist shape is known as the area rule. We used to call the Thud a triple threat. It could bomb you, strafe you or fall on you.
There is an excellent book called "Thud Ridge" by a thud pilot in Vietnam.
The book was written by GI Basel, unless I'm thinking of another book
@clearcreek69 the one I was referring to is by Jack Broughton.
I may have read Jack Broughton's book too, but I read lots of books about the war in high school.
@@joelb8653 It's a good book, but pretty self-serving. Jack Broughton screwed his career, and spent the rest of his life trying to justify his actions. A better book (IMHO) is "When Thunder Rolled" by Ed Rasimus.
there is a really nice example at the Hill AFB Aerospace Museum just north of Salt Lake City
My dad commanded an F-105 squadron at Kadena AB (67th TFS). During his time on Okinawa he was ordered to take 12 Thuds to South Korea shortly after USS Pueblo was seized by North Korea in January 1968. The plan was to immediately fly the 12 F-105s into Wonsan Harbor, North Korea, and sink the captured Pueblo at all costs. That plan was never executed. Following the Pueblo Incident, my dad then flew 140 missions during Vietnam in the Thud with the 354th and 357th Tactical Fighter Squadrons at Takhli Royal Thai AFB. Thankfully he made it back home safely from his year long combat deployment. My dad flew many different aircraft during his 25 years in the Air Force, but the F-105 was by far his favorite.
This is the second video that I would consider click bait Simon. The other was about the A-10.
The F-105 was a ground breaking aircraft in many ways. Much like the F-111 years later. I'm tired of hearing the negative comments about either machine by the negative thinking, uninformed who cling to the one bit of info they know about an aircraft...then spew words like they are an expert.
Because of designed wingloading for wicked fast low leve missions, tanking off prop driven tankers was EXTREMELY difficult. CODOs to all who did this before the advent of the KC135.
IT WAS AN AWESOME aircraft, with an amazing engine...powerful and rugged. Know to suck in all sorts of things from wrenches, bolts, even patches in the inlets, and just keep running. TRY POSITIVE TITLES rather than negative BUUL SHIET ones just to get the "click"
It's about time you did a video about the F-105 Thunderchief. The largest and fastest single engine jet of its time, advanced avionics and systems. Down on the deck fully loaded F-105s were out running F-4 phantoms that were suppose to escort them.
Dirty Deeds... THUNDERCHIEF!!!
G'day,
Wrong...!
The line of
The SONG,
Was
"DONE
DIRT
CHEAP....!"
Acca-Dacca would not have known
Nor recognised an
F-105 if it fell out of the
Sky & crashed on their
Audience at a
Concert.
AC-DC
Had
ZERO Interest in
Unkle Spam's
Fossil-Carbon farting
Little
Hairygoplanes.
Just(ifiably ?) sayin'.
Such is life,
Have a good one...
;-p
Ciao !
@WarblesOnALot Ruffled some feathers lol. I know it's done dirt cheap, but thinderchief doesn't sound too bad either.
@@abitofapickle6255
No worries,
Apparently there's a
Big
Shitpotful of individuals who
Genuinely thunk
The
Origidiginal
Lyric was
"FunDurrrChief...!"
So,
One felt kinda
Duty-bound to
Offer a
Mite of
Correctikation...
(lol !).
;-p
Ciao !
A very correct statement! Thank you.
You failed to mention the F-105G Wild Weasel. Another variant of the Thud that was a 2 seater designed to take out enemy air defenses.
Exactly! How do you a video about F-105s and not mention the Wild Weasels?
There were several pictures of 105F's and G's in the video.
Glad several people picked up on this. As I understand it the Wild Weasels’ job was to bait enemy missile sites and radar-guided AA guns into firing to take them out in advance of the bombers/strike aircraft. A professional target, in other words. It took a pilot with the right combination of skill, guts and luck to do this job.
It seems to my the high loss rate should be seen in this context. A lot of strike aircraft were undoubtedly saved by the skill and sacrifices of the Wild Weasels.
@@scottholman3982 And not once was the mission mentioned.
F-105's shot down 29 Migs . 27 of them with the cannon. Other two were Mig-21's shot down with sidewinders ,both fired from the "F" midel. But the "Thud" carried more ordance over the 17th parrellel and dropped it on target more than anything else out there. It was the key TAC strike aircraft always given the longest,toughest missions in the thickest most dangerous environments. The losses,don't blame the Thud,you can blame big-mouth "Magnamara" on that one.
Can’t believe that I heard you confuse stalling the aircraft with stalling the engine (time 7:03) An aerodynamic stall has nothing whatsoever to do with the engine.
Silly nerd
Still one of my favorite planes aesthetically
Granted, that is about the worst backhanded compliment you can give to a plane.
Not that I disagree (It is one of the best looking jets of all time), but it really is a sad state of affairs when something that so many people have spent so much time on, ends up remembered for looking good and nothing else.
Ooh, a nice shot of the elusive MiG-28 at 10:04!
Nice One Simon 👍👍👍
There was no chute to recover the aircraft during a spin. Loss of control required an ejection. Aircraft that had drouges could deploy as a last ditch effort to stabilise the spin but there is no way a drouge would safely land the plane.
The F-105 had a drag chute, like most fighters of it's time. You could land the plane without using it but you'd better have plenty of runway available. Spins were recoverable in the F-105; loss of control did not demand ejecting from the aircraft unless you were below 15,000 feet.
Was stationed at George, AFB as a Crew Chief with the last squadron of active duty F-105 G WW’s . From there they went full time reserves Dobbins , Atlanta. Good times…..
We also had the F4 E/G Wild Weasels with no gun but ICM equipped. 😁
It's a pity you didn't mention the F-105G Wild Weasel.
I'd love you to do the Megaprojects take on the English Electric Lightening which is my absolute favourite post WWII airplane 🙏🙏🙏
We Brits and the French flew the Sepecat Jaguar in a similar role well into the noughties. A later design using twin engines but has similar lines to my eye. Used during Gulf Wars and an perennial star turn at Red Flag Iirc. Some export nations still flying them?
The THUD one of my all-time favorite plans! I read it had a water reservoir the pilot could access with a tube...
Yeah. It was a tank that collected your piss when you saw your first SAM.
Love em or hate em, they did the dirty work. These are true war birds.
Alexander Kartveli (Kartvelishvili) was a Georgian man (not a Russian!!!) the father of American aviation. His name and role are now forgotten by the American nation!!!. If his name is to be respected, America should give the retired a-10 (at least a few) to the Georgian Air Force.
Hey Simon, I've got a Megaprojects idea for you! Every year the US government spends billions of dollars with thousands of people involved to fight Wildland Fires. There are tons of different moving parts and types of fighting forces for the operation but I think it's incredibly interesting and surprisingly overlooked. Hope you feel the same!
Simon: do Wild Weasels. See comments below. You would have fun with it, and these crazy, heroic bastards need as much recognition as they can get.
Hey Simon, why are you set to 1.5 speed. I had to check the playback speed multiple times just to understand why everything is so much quicker than usual.
You did not mention the G Wild Weasel model.
Mark fay
Last flight in 1978? Was the F-105 not retired in 1984?
You missed the reason for the nuke internal bomb bay. SAC was getting all the money. TAC wanted a cut and a key to that was having an internal bomb bay for the nuke. So, a tactical nuke delivery system was greated, the F-105. The first squadron of F-105s in Vietnam attacked a bridge for their first target. That was the first time those pilots flew an executed a strike with conventunal bombs.
)5:30 - the "Sound of Speed"? Interesting ;)
10:05 ah yes, the infamous mig 28s lol
Please get it right. Refuelling a 105 at low speed risks stalling the aircraft- not the engine (like in a car!).
It was called 'Thud' because that was the noise when it hit the deck after being shot down.
It was the 355 Tactical Fighter Squadron, not 'Air' squadron. Even your pic shows 355 TFS!
Among the things you missed out, were the activities of the two seater 105s as 'Wild Weasels'- maybe scope for a seperate video, or the fact that the there were over 700 made, and about half the fleet are still in Viet Nam- albeit highly dispersed....
Perhaps the 105's "fatal flaw" was that the conflict it was designed for was never fought? It was meant to dash through the river valleys of Warsaw Pact nations, vaporizing cities and industrial targets, hauling ass all the way in and out. Several perfectly good (and some excellent) aircraft had the same problem in the Cold War! Among them were high-altitude interceptors like the Su-15, F-106, Lightning, and MiG-25; nuclear bombers such as the V-force, B-58, Tu-22M, and XB-70; maritime strike aircraft such as the Buccaneer. And frankly, that's the whole reason we're around to watch RUclips and gainsay Simon Whistler on any number of topics he hosts content on.
The fatal flaw of the Thud was Robert Strange McNamara.
The F-105D Thunderchief was capable of Mach 2.1.
When talking about how it only does mach 1.5, that’s the speed it can do while flying very low on the deck on route too bomb targets isn’t it? I thought I heard that while flying far higher , it can most likely go faster than that
Thunder!.. ahhh ahhh ahhh ahhha ahhh ahhh ah ahh, Thunder!
Sorry i saw the thumbnail and ACDC sprung to mind 😂
The Thud nickname was a sick joke about the sound the 105 made when it crashed into the Vietnamese jungle. Later, it is revised to be about the weight of the plane when it landed.
I thought it was a reference to Chief Thunderthud, a now politically incorrect character on the 1950's Howdy Doody children's show. Most of the pilots in Vietnam were of the age to have watched it in their youth.
Weren’t these used as Wild Weasels in Vietnam?? Pretty hazardous missions/
Yes they were. First F-100Fs, then, 105Gs and finally near the end, F-4s.
I bet that thing was a blast to fly
The KC135 needs a video
Read the book Thud Ridge!
"When Thunder Rolled" by Ed Rasimus is a lot less self-serving.
I might be wrong but I think the "shockwave" picture is not accurate. The given picture is of a low density condensation ring. To get an image of the true shockwave consider a photo taken with the Schlieren photography. 😊 5:30
Republic/ Fairchild made some very tough planes but they aren't as flashy as their counterparts at their time. There are a lot of people wanting to see the Thunderbolt II go the way of the dodo as people think they no longer have a use.
More flashy than an F4, inmo.
I like to imagine that Simon has to constantly do a second take whenever he reads the name Peter, because of yelling "am i right Peter."
One of my favourite Cold War era aircraft
Ahh, the good old F105. Commonly used in Robert Ludlum books as a secret passenger aircraft. It could carry several passengers apparently. 🤣
0:34 *Georgian born. Yes, Georgia (the one in the Caucasus region, not the one in the US, obviously) was under the rule of the Russian Empire at the time, but given the tumoltuous history of Russian-Georgian relations, filled with wars, conquests and genocide, I'd say Kartveli would be at least pissed to be called "Russian-born".
It's biggest flaw was the general staff that chose to use it for things it wasn't designed for. But then they do that a lot.
It'll be fine! We'll pit a prop on it and it'll be just as good!
7:00 Stalling the aircraft (in the aerodynamic sense) is unrelated to an engine stall.
They have one at the Cavanaugh Flight Museum in Addison TX, so I've seen one up close. It is NOT a small airplane.
You guys need to turn down the background music so the narration can be heard better.
the high loss rate is a bit unfair, considering the Thud was the aircraft pioneering SEAD
Surely this is the moment we all realize Simon has been an advanced generative AI this whole time? Just think of all the channels!
Thuds flew with ANG until around 1984. I witnessed them with my own eyes.
When I joined the DCANG '82, they still had 105s. After I returned from training (14 months later), they had switched to F4s. Both tough to work on, as far as our equipment was concerned.
So many aircraft manufacturers were based in NY and now we have none. Great going NY in keeping jobs in the State