I hope you enjoyed this critique and how instructors can see things differently. The final part of this lesson will be out soon so stay tuned and comment below.
I just learnt proper pole plant from an Austria instructor in a performance ski camp in New Zealand. It took a while to understand the timing and get it right. It definitely helped my skiing.
Excellant presentation of a very important part of skiiing. I have a ski tip from one of Josh Foster's uTube videos that I found really improved my pole planting and skiing. When pole planting your elbow should be slightly below your hand. In order to perform this correctly with the properly sized ski pole, you must angulate by bending your knees, ankles, waist and move your chest forward. You are already having your students bend their legs in the bottom of the turn this will get their upper body in the right position.
Thanks very much for uploading these episodes, nice to see some snow and skiing. On an unrelated note would it be possible to read this @SIA Austria and reply so I can perhaps better understand some things that I have been thinking about lately regarding skiing... I dont recall exactly which video you talked about this but I remember you mentioning concentric mouvement in skiing turns and that it is not an eccentric mouvement but a concentric one- especially in the second part of the turn (I apologise if maybe I misinterpreted totally or partially what you said but this is something that a remember taking away after watching one of your videos.) This concept definitely makes sense to me, however, I still have some questions (which I would highly appreciate you answering hha) regarding the first half of the turn (especially medium/long radius carving ones). From my understanding, I can move my CoM into the inside by using a toppling effect (this effect, I believe, is less visible in short radius skidded turns because of a lesser inclined upper body) which I can create either by extending the legs (an eccentric motion) and/or by moving my upper body over and into the new turn. Personally, I believe that the first option is worst because, once the legs are extended, you can no longer apply any considerable force to the snow and hene lose grip. *This first scenario implies that I have grip which I can then extend off of meaning that the whole time my legs are extending, my skis are gripping and turning. However, if I extend my legs to grip instead of from grip (so from a gripless start) my skis should not turn until I have found grip somewhere at which point my legs will then be forced naturally into a concentric motion (which will help me maintain grip as I have force I can apply to the snow by resisting) due to the lateral forces from the exit of the previous turn preparing me for a nice flexxed transition. So from this, my questions are : .Firstly, is this last scenario representing good or bad ski technique? .When you talk about con./ecc. motions is it the leg mouvement itself or the way muscles apply energy? (to contextualise, in your skiing demonstrations, I get the impression that you contract your leg muscles in a concentric manner (for ex. in short turns I see that you progessively lower contract your legs lowering your upper half to extreme degrees which seem almost impossible from the external forces that apply to you meaning that it's majoritarily created by yourself. Video example from your channel : ruclips.net/video/0cx3XRbmGek/видео.html) .Do you believe that the way you contract your legs in the second half of the turn is the best technique, mouvement (I believe you create a concentric mouvement directly) ? (I understand that this question depends from what you want as an output so the answer is subjective, but what do you think from a performance, form point of view) .Do you utilise this mouvement to have a compact (flexxed) transition, if so why do you not pull your legs, in front of you to make those 90° angles of a compact transition in the hips and knees? .Do you believe the concentric motion should be created directly from onself, through muscle activation, or via the present external forces? Thank you very much for reading this very long comment and hopefully replying, watching SIA Austria is always interesting and enjoyable.
I am going to need to read through this a few times and I think we can answer this on a follow up podcast and I am sure it will interest more people. Thanks again for the comment.
The minutiae of pole planting is right on point for me, as that, stable arm carriage, fore-aft ski weighting & avalement turns are the main things I've been working on at my local snowdome. I bought some telescopic ski poles earlier this year, mainly for ski touring, but also to experiment with different lengths on the downhill. So far I haven't noticed any marked improvement between my usual 125cm & trying 115, 120, 130 & 135cm, but your video should really help to focus in on the benefits of a shorter pole length.
Excellent content as always, maybe if you guys get time; put up some simple poll length guides. Persons hight, style of skiing, piste or off piste etc.
I've been a racer, instructor, and coach; and each uses a different approach. When Bodie Miller, Marcel Hirscher, and Mikaela Shiffrin are racing, their pole plant is very subtle in most instances, if at all. When they are free skiing their pole plant is more apparent. This is because racing gates forces you to turn because of the requirement to hold a line, whereas in free skiing most expert skiers can turn most anywhere they want to in spite of moguls, ice, or crud. These racers have the ability to make a good turn with or without a distinct pole plant. For them the pole plant serves them more as balancing maneuver like a high wire walker uses their pole to keep in balance. For an expert skier that is free skiing, the pole plant provides a rhythm and subsequent turn shape that is constant at least for a couple of turns. When a coach sets a course for elite racers they purposely set a course where rhythm cannot be established. The course might have a turn in a deep compression for the skier or a gate at the top of rise where the skier is airborne and may or may not have a compression at the bottom of the turn. In a quick slalom flush there isn't any time for a traditional pole plant and the arms and forearm guards act as a battering device. This is why there is course inspection before each race and the racer knows what type a turn they will probably use, and subsequent type of pole plant. Ted Ligety invented the stivot and the pole plant with this type of turn in GS. When someone like Marcel skis moguls, a more traditional pole plant is used and the mogul is forcing him where to turn and the type of pole plant to use. My point is that elite skiers can turn most anywhere they want with or without a pole plant and will modify a pole plant to fit their needs. An intermediate skier cannot advance without a solid pole plant that provides timing; and a good but not expert skier can't advance unless they learn to make a turn without a pole plant or at least a very subtle one. Different types of pole plants are just another tool in the expert skier's tool chest.
Quite interesting video. My height is 1.90 m and - moreover - I have long legs in comparison to my upper body. The length of my poles is 125 cm, which is short comparing to what would be recommended to me in stores (up to 135 cm!). Obviously I have to try to ski with even shorter poles - down to 120 cm… 🤔
I think it will depend on what type of skiing you plan to do on any given day which is why many are choosing telescopic poles. You are much taller than I and I like around 115-117cm so maybe 125cm is not too bad. Maybe it is I that should try to go down to 110cm 😉
Thanks for the long (> 30 minutes - YAY! 🙂) episode. I won't comment on the pole planting part because others already have, but I've been thinking about what you said here and in other podcasts about "Alpines Fahrverhalten" or, in English, what you (and probably others) have translated as "Alpine Basic Position." You and others have interpreted "verhalten" as "behaviour" which is certainly more correct than "position," so I agree with you so far. But, as an English and German speaker, and in the context of the connection between the pole plant timing and the "Alpines Fahrverhalten," I find your "Alpine Basic 'Behaviour'" to be too literal. Wouldn't you agree that a more contextual translation would be something more like "Alpine Basic Movement Flow?" That's kind of a mouthful, but IMHO it is more to the point.
I suppose behaviour, position and flow can all be intertwined in some way and sometimes we need to adapt the description to help a student understand more clearly.
Sure the pole plant is important. However there are some obvious skill deficiencies in how these students stand on their equipment (Position). How they stand will allow or hinder their ability to turn their legs and edge the ski. The pole plant is a symptom. We ski from are feet up. Not from the head down...
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I hope you enjoyed this critique and how instructors can see things differently. The final part of this lesson will be out soon so stay tuned and comment below.
Paul, you with Geri are doing top notch movement analysis in these videos. The guidance will be of great help to me when I’m teaching. Thank you both.
Thanks for that and there is more to come.
I just learnt proper pole plant from an Austria instructor in a performance ski camp in New Zealand. It took a while to understand the timing and get it right. It definitely helped my skiing.
Excellant presentation of a very important part of skiiing. I have a ski tip from one of Josh Foster's uTube videos that I found really improved my pole planting and skiing. When pole planting your elbow should be slightly below your hand. In order to perform this correctly with the properly sized ski pole, you must angulate by bending your knees, ankles, waist and move your chest forward. You are already having your students bend their legs in the bottom of the turn this will get their upper body in the right position.
Thanks for the comment Lawrence.
Thanks very much for uploading these episodes, nice to see some snow and skiing.
On an unrelated note would it be possible to read this @SIA Austria and reply so I can perhaps better understand some things that I have been thinking about lately regarding skiing...
I dont recall exactly which video you talked about this but I remember you mentioning concentric mouvement in skiing turns and that
it is not an eccentric mouvement but a concentric one- especially in the second part of the turn (I apologise if maybe I misinterpreted totally or partially
what you said but this is something that a remember taking away after watching one of your videos.)
This concept definitely makes sense to me, however, I still have some questions (which I would highly appreciate you answering hha)
regarding the first half of the turn (especially medium/long radius carving ones).
From my understanding, I can move my CoM into the inside by using a toppling effect (this effect, I believe, is less visible in short radius skidded turns because of a lesser inclined upper body) which I can create either by extending the legs (an eccentric motion) and/or by moving my upper body over and into the new turn.
Personally, I believe that the first option is worst because, once the legs are extended, you can no longer apply any considerable force to the snow and hene lose grip.
*This first scenario implies that I have grip which I can then extend off of meaning that the whole time my legs are extending, my skis are gripping and turning.
However, if I extend my legs to grip instead of from grip (so from a gripless start) my skis should not turn until I have found grip somewhere at which point my legs will then be forced naturally into a concentric motion (which will help me maintain grip as I have force I can apply to the snow by resisting) due to the lateral forces from the exit of the previous turn preparing me for a nice flexxed transition.
So from this, my questions are :
.Firstly, is this last scenario representing good or bad ski technique?
.When you talk about con./ecc. motions is it the leg mouvement itself or the way muscles apply energy?
(to contextualise, in your skiing demonstrations, I get the impression that you contract your leg muscles in a concentric manner
(for ex. in short turns I see that you progessively lower contract your legs lowering your upper half to extreme degrees which seem almost impossible from the external forces that apply to you meaning that it's majoritarily created by yourself. Video example from your channel : ruclips.net/video/0cx3XRbmGek/видео.html)
.Do you believe that the way you contract your legs in the second half of the turn is the best technique, mouvement (I believe you create a concentric mouvement directly) ?
(I understand that this question depends from what you want as an output so the answer is subjective, but what do you think from a performance, form point of view)
.Do you utilise this mouvement to have a compact (flexxed) transition, if so why do you not pull your legs, in front of you to make those 90° angles of a compact transition in the hips and knees?
.Do you believe the concentric motion should be created directly from onself, through muscle activation, or via the present external forces?
Thank you very much for reading this very long comment and hopefully replying, watching SIA Austria is always interesting and enjoyable.
I am going to need to read through this a few times and I think we can answer this on a follow up podcast and I am sure it will interest more people. Thanks again for the comment.
@@SIAAustria Thanks for that. Let me know if I need to clarify some things or better explain myself as I know it is definitely a mouthfull.
The minutiae of pole planting is right on point for me, as that, stable arm carriage, fore-aft ski weighting & avalement turns are the main things I've been working on at my local snowdome. I bought some telescopic ski poles earlier this year, mainly for ski touring, but also to experiment with different lengths on the downhill. So far I haven't noticed any marked improvement between my usual 125cm & trying 115, 120, 130 & 135cm, but your video should really help to focus in on the benefits of a shorter pole length.
Great stuff! Good luck with the sizing of your poles.
Excellent content as always, maybe if you guys get time; put up some simple poll length guides. Persons hight, style of skiing, piste or off piste etc.
Will have a further discussion on this subject soon Stevie.
Well, can I now say I've had a lesson in pole planting when I take your course in October?😂
Just need the practical part now!
I've been a racer, instructor, and coach; and each uses a different approach. When Bodie Miller, Marcel Hirscher, and Mikaela Shiffrin are racing, their pole plant is very subtle in most instances, if at all. When they are free skiing their pole plant is more apparent. This is because racing gates forces you to turn because of the requirement to hold a line, whereas in free skiing most expert skiers can turn most anywhere they want to in spite of moguls, ice, or crud. These racers have the ability to make a good turn with or without a distinct pole plant. For them the pole plant serves them more as balancing maneuver like a high wire walker uses their pole to keep in balance.
For an expert skier that is free skiing, the pole plant provides a rhythm and subsequent turn shape that is constant at least for a couple of turns. When a coach sets a course for elite racers they purposely set a course where rhythm cannot be established. The course might have a turn in a deep compression for the skier or a gate at the top of rise where the skier is airborne and may or may not have a compression at the bottom of the turn. In a quick slalom flush there isn't any time for a traditional pole plant and the arms and forearm guards act as a battering device. This is why there is course inspection before each race and the racer knows what type a turn they will probably use, and subsequent type of pole plant. Ted Ligety invented the stivot and the pole plant with this type of turn in GS.
When someone like Marcel skis moguls, a more traditional pole plant is used and the mogul is forcing him where to turn and the type of pole plant to use. My point is that elite skiers can turn most anywhere they want with or without a pole plant and will modify a pole plant to fit their needs. An intermediate skier cannot advance without a solid pole plant that provides timing; and a good but not expert skier can't advance unless they learn to make a turn without a pole plant or at least a very subtle one. Different types of pole plants are just another tool in the expert skier's tool chest.
Thanks for the comment. Its great to read your in depth analysis.
Quite interesting video. My height is 1.90 m and - moreover - I have long legs in comparison to my upper body. The length of my poles is 125 cm, which is short comparing to what would be recommended to me in stores (up to 135 cm!). Obviously I have to try to ski with even shorter poles - down to 120 cm… 🤔
I think it will depend on what type of skiing you plan to do on any given day which is why many are choosing telescopic poles. You are much taller than I and I like around 115-117cm so maybe 125cm is not too bad. Maybe it is I that should try to go down to 110cm 😉
@@SIAAustria As you often say, tall skiers have to pull down their COM 😉 I have to try.
Thanks for the long (> 30 minutes - YAY! 🙂) episode. I won't comment on the pole planting part because others already have, but I've been thinking about what you said here and in other podcasts about "Alpines Fahrverhalten" or, in English, what you (and probably others) have translated as "Alpine Basic Position." You and others have interpreted "verhalten" as "behaviour" which is certainly more correct than "position," so I agree with you so far. But, as an English and German speaker, and in the context of the connection between the pole plant timing and the "Alpines Fahrverhalten," I find your "Alpine Basic 'Behaviour'" to be too literal. Wouldn't you agree that a more contextual translation would be something more like "Alpine Basic Movement Flow?" That's kind of a mouthful, but IMHO it is more to the point.
I suppose behaviour, position and flow can all be intertwined in some way and sometimes we need to adapt the description to help a student understand more clearly.
Agreed! Sometimes there's just no precise way in one English word to express a concept that is natural in German - and vice versa.
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Sure the pole plant is important. However there are some obvious skill deficiencies in how these students stand on their equipment (Position). How they stand will allow or hinder their ability to turn their legs and edge the ski. The pole plant is a symptom. We ski from are feet up. Not from the head down...
Hi Kristian! Thank you for your thoughtful comment. We will look more closer at what you said in a future podcast to discuss our thoughts.
As much as I appreciate you putting these series together could you not let your man talk a bit more?