Jordon, equipotential bonding of PV modules over 120V dc has been a requirement in Australia & New Zealand since 2012 edition of our PV standard. There are several reasons but it was "triggered" by a child receiving an electric shock touching a metal ladder leaning agains the roof guttering. The cause was the normal capacitive coupling of the module's cells to the frame and the a.c. leakage through non-separated (transformerless) inverters. Up to approximately half grid voltage (a.c.) can be present on the frames of PV modules under normal operating conditions. The bonding provides a path for this small (typically < 1mA) leakage current to earth. The other reason for bonding is that a failure of the double insulation of the PV array can only be detected by the inverter if there is an earth reference for the inverter to measure against, typically done on startup. This can cause intermittent problems during wet or humid weather due to low resistance to frame of the modules (which is a breakdown of their double insulation).
Most of the increasingly popular all-in-one 'high frequency' PV/battery charger/inverter units aren't isolated PV either. It's stated in the manual either directly or implied, but so many people using them don't read it or understand the implications. It's a bit scary thinking about how many of these things are out there not installed properly, particularly in countries where electrical work is often undertaken by untrained people.
Same in Belgium, its just a equipotential bonding. Started placing solar in 2008 and came into effect around the same year. (2012) lots of houses have velux windows from which you could potentially tough the Solar installation.
Also, what about isolating/disconnecting the load and then testing RCD with 30mA /300 mA as there already leakage in the cct.. Also in AS/ NZ standards, there would be no way the cables would be laying on the roof like that without segregation..it not a UV thing it's a wear through the insulation in the wind thing! just sayn 😮
Really informative, even for the relative layman that I am. PS: Regarding taxes: I think income tax rates are actually lower than in the UK. It's the social contributions paid by employers and employees that are much higher (and maybe company tax, I don't know). But on the up side, we don't have people dying in ambulance queues because there aren't any hospital beds and you can get from Marseille to Paris in just over 3 hours by train. So, I'm happy to pay my social contributions and taxes here, even though they do take a big chunk out of my salary. Keep the videos coming!
I'd guess on a TN-C-S system, placing one probe on the neutral before the RCD and one on the live after the RCD would have the same effect as neutral and earth are bonded at the DNO transformer? Still a pretty silly mistake given he knew it was TT.
The sheet under neath is a fibre cement roof sheet (my sister lives in Bergerac and they have exactly the same system) they then lay the clay tile over the crown of the profile Top tip - don't ever attempt walking on a fibre cement roof in UK, the purlin centres are larger and more often than not the roof sheet will fail (with no warning either), its also illegal to access a fibre cement roof in UK without some form of safety, usually netting under the roof or a harness system on the roof that you can connect onto at the eaves with walkboards to access the working area
Loved the Video! Francois was an awesome guy. The reason we now have to earth the rails is to carry out insulation resistance testing periodically. It is becoming a big problem as pv panels get older the silicons are breaking down, creating positive or negative to earth or gradually shorting the panel. If you have to climb up on the roof to test this you will need to cover the panels first.
Cleaning panels is what got me to put them on the ground so they are accessible. Dust is easy, but pollen glues itself. I spent a month designing a tilt tracking system for the roof that would fit in the tight space down near the eaves for the lower panels I never got to build more than the test prototype.
@@robertsmith2956 How about a gardena micro-drip system equipped with sprayers and a detergent addon to lift the pollen. Essentially the ability to wash the panels down without having to get out a garden hose (and can be done on an irrigation timer)
@@miscbits6399 I thought about it, even a wash roller on tracks to run down the panels. But drip systems clog when dealing with pollen. It was much easier to put the panels on the ground, and build a shed behind them to hold the electronics.
Interesting that you mentioned amateur radio.... I'm a radio ham, and moved from France to Northumberland into a fairly recently built estate. There are five houses in the immediate vicinity, and 3.5 MHz 80 metres is completely unusable due to a high level of RF noise.....
Bonding PV panels to the AC-linked Earth is not a good idea with RCDs in the circuit. Bonding PV panels to a dedicated DC-only Earth spike is a good solution and helps reduce EMF issues affecting all sorts of RF signals from Amateur Radio and Wi-Fi (I had both of these issues).
Both "loft" and "attic" are used in British English to describe a large space under a roof that's above the main occupied areas of a building. However, the terms have different meanings in some definitions: Attic Usually refers to an entire floor of a building, or a room immediately under the roof that's accessed by a staircase. Attics can be used for storage, HVAC equipment, or insulation, or they can be converted into private rooms. Loft Usually refers to one or more rooms or spaces under the roof that are accessed by a hatch and loft ladder. Lofts can be used for a specific purpose, like an organ loft in a church, or they can be converted into a living space. Lofts often have an open-plan design that combines contemporary design with historical architecture
@@calmeilles In the US, we use that term in the reverse. Attic is an unfinished space, temp. access. A loft is usually a semi finished space that is elevated.
I have just done a UK Level 3 electricians course and am also have a BE(Electrical). I now live in the French Alpes - I am looking for work as an apprentice or mate in any sort of electrical area (install, repairs, solar, ..). If anyone has tips finding work in France with UK qualifications I would love to know :).
You can see with ENIC-NARIC office. It's a government office who can recognize and give you an equivalent of your diplomas in France. It has a ~70-80€ fees and can take several months to receive the French diploma but you'll be good to find a job here without starting from the beginning. Hope that will help you.
@@UKsystems yes I have been looking at the schneider set - which I think is more iec standard . Have you seen an official set of French regs online by chance ?
In the netherlands we also have this issue sometimes this is because the newer inverters dont have a transformer in themand thats why there is no galvanic isolation between the pv panels and de AC-grid, so mostly some leakege current will flow over the dc connection trough earth and this wil trip the RCD, P.S. Jordan i am a dutch electrician, so if you ever in the netherlands i would love to show how the dutch are doing electrical.
I think a good example of such inverters are the IQ micro-inverters from Enphase? And that's one of the reasons why here, we also need the Q-relays from Enphase between the micro-inverters and the breakers, so there is a real mechanical disconnection when power is cut?
Transformless inverters always will have ac leak to pv and all hybrid inverters is transfromless, so if you have hybrid inverter always turn in off before connecting pv, because even when pv is off you can get shocked by touching pv input contacts on inverter because there is AC leak from inverter and that’s normal on hybrid inverters
Love it! At my House in Spain the Earth cable is a sort of combo of 20 earth cables. And we installed the Solars on Day one, and on Day 2 we installed airco's and suddenly my Outlet for my EV wasn't working anymore.... We found out that the earth was disconnected..... Oeps
A few years ago one of my friends met a french electrician who was also a Plumber, on his van it said something like don't worry about the sparks the Leaks will Put it out!
You mean of course you want to earth the frames of the solar panels and not the solar panels themselves. Right? And yes of course they must be grounded.
@@HEelektra When lightning strikes directly it does not matter. Grounding the frames helps dissipating the energy into the earth. If it enters the house you are in a world of hurt. That may or may not happen. I, and most of my neighbors do not even have lightning rods on our buildings. That is not necessary here in middle Europe.
@@HEelektra if it directly strikes your property , at least the earthing might reduce the amount of the rest of your electrical system that explodes out of the walls.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 I had a strike on tree out front. Blew all the bark off killing it. It also traveled up the phone line that ran through it's branches, into the house where it blew the back off the DSL modem. Went up the network line to the firewall box, and melted the jack on it stopping it from getting to rest of network. But it also went up L2 knocking out some other equipment, and popping the fuse on that leg. Had a buick coil do the same thing when it cracked open and fired into the ECU instead of the spark plug wires. Surge protector doesn't stop the power spike when it come from the house. At least not a useful stop. Maybe that i what held it to that one line segment. I was shocked the network cable handled the load that melted the connectors on both ends.
The panel earth bond thing (~21:00) was mentioned on the recent e5 video about becoming 'live' in certain situations, which I suspected would be RFI filters that need an earth connection, that if left open gains half supply volts through the Y capacitors in the RFI cct.
Just talked to my installer who added some extra details. Apparently, originally, rails were earthed (CPC) but then became a part of the lightening hazard system so would need surge protection, plus the potential DC leakage would/could affect the circuit breakers if not rated for additional DC. Hence the earthing requirement got removed. And now it's possible other systems assume the presence of an earth. So it's building to a bag of worms..
Another thought about earth bonding - although the PV panels are on the roof out of the householder's reach - other trades may need to be on the roof (e.g. attending the aircon or heatpump) and they may find themselves in contact with both their equipment and the PV metalwork..
The flexible conduit is called "gaine" and provides the double insulation requirement to the single core conductors inside, it is used pretty much everywhere as it allows (in theory) a damaged wire to be replaced. He is correct to say that for surface mounted wiring gaine must be used or a double insulated cable but the ones he pointed out which were not in gaine were red and black IIRC single insulated 16 or 25mm2 supply cables so should have been in gaine or trunking, also the red and black unless they were both live conductors should have been blue for the neutral. A real cowboy job and typical of a solar or swimming pool installation in my country. I was shouting out loud when he tried to test the RCD between phase and neutral and the other guy did not even know it was wrong.
Did my solar install myself, I'm living at Reunion Island, loads of sun, but lot of wind, so had to secure... . Everything's ok, grounded, never a probleù, but man, the costs are insane... Went from 5-6 euros a day of elecrticity to 1.4-1.5 euros, huge change. I won't go full autonomy at the moment, but it has been a huge help, I can charge my EV during 2.5-3 hours a day usually, huge help! And my everything is grounded, even solar pannels. No problem at the moment, even when there is a power outage.
@@artisanelectrics Thanks. But people should be sure of what they're doing, I'm no pro', just had a lot of documentation, did a lot of research and asked questions to professionnals (and a lot of them weren't that professionnal). I run on solar from 8.00 to usually 20.00 on a good sunny day, I don't have a lot of batteries (only 48V at the moment, looking to buy 4 mores 12V), since it is really expansive. Not re-selling to EDF (french provide), since it is a huge pain in the *ahem*, that is why I will probably expand storage. And thanks for you videos, always interesting to watch themn keep it up !
Over Voltage Protection NEEDS earth bonding of the Solar panels. Also: In counties with a lot of snow like here in Austria homeowners may also go onto the roof to clear the snow. In that case live voltage on a panel could be deadly.
Would love to see more content like this. I'm in the UK but used to live in Italy where they use conduit for all homes, it is so much each to add new wires, why do you think we don't do this in the UK?
In the US on metal surfaces have to be bonded so solar panels do you have to be grounded it's interesting I didn't know that the UK doesn't CPC solar panels. Basically it comes down to having all metal surfaces at equal potential bonding. And recently I saw a couple videos that are indicating cheaper inverters are causing the solar panels to float with touch voltages that are bad. Noise would be another thing there's enough noise in the world it would be nice if it stayed out of the radio frequency causing Wi-Fi issues and ham radio issues although that's the first I've heard of that with Solar.
Roofs in Scotland are solid sheeted flat and waterproof before counter battens and tiling battens. That has been building regulations for at least 40 years. Usually OSB or Ply first. No fixing point issues.
Jordan I always bring an earth wire from the rails and pannels. If they are close to a velux window then you must anyway. But my seaward tester requires connection to rail for testing so rather than get a ladder off the van it's done.
If you are ever in Mexico near or in Ciudad Victoria, let me know and I'll show my DIY setup. I have the same roof setup, concrete roof with clay tiles on top. We get an average temperature of 42°C here, nice and warm. Greetings, and excellent videos.
Solax non hybrid inverters have a built in ground test; upon powering up they inject to small current into the ground to see if it is there. In earlier software revisions this ground current tripped the RCD. So every morning at sunrise the RCD tripped. I ended up living without it. There can be considerable capacitive ground current when using thin film type PV panels and single phase inverters. SMA has an app note how to trick and compensate for this. Three phase inverters have the avg panel voltage at ground level, and do not suffer from capacitive leakage
should do the "Shocking truth about solar in Northern Ireland". shockingly, we occasionally see the sun! currently producing 7.2 kW from my 7.8kWp system!
RF "earth bonding" can be done with suitable capacitors. It gets complicated because long earth cables are inductors but I can see why the French would want the panels bonded FWIW British installations are extremely lax on RFI issues, due to decades of non-enforcement by OFCOM
Interesting...I have a 2 year old installation with a Fronius Symo transformerless inverter on a 30 mA RCD and it never tripped. The leakage on the AC side is about 5 mA (I used a KPS DCM300LEAK to measure). I regularly test the RCD with a Metrel MI 3125.
Great post, thanks! Two things. Does bonding the solar panels and rails not introduce a ground potential above surface level and therefore increase the likelihood of a lightening strike to a greater level than if the system was not bonded? Ive only ever bonded panels in the UK on ground mount. Also, I recently did an off-grid system for some mates in south France, around Montpellier, and they have expressed that their families were interested in solar. Looks like there is a decent market for providing solar to expats out there and I am looking for ways to potentially get involved. If anyone one knows of what I need to do to get involved that'd be great. If it is a matter of retraining then I would be open to work with a company in order to ensure compliance with french regulations.
19:52 regarding "i'm telling you what to do now": Nothing wrong about that, actually it is good practice in software engineering called pair programming. One person does the coding and another one tells you what to do in general (but not dictating the code letter by letter). I assume this would work well in other crafts like electical as well.
RCD or "Interrupteur différentiel 2P 230V~ 40A type AC 300mA - 2 modules" Legrand brand - Found it at 60€. They could find a solution to run cleanly the cables from the roof to the DC box.......maybe they could but was pricier.
You must test RCD on top contacts not on input (bottom contacts) and im car mechanic 🤔 and load input should be from the bottom if im right and top contacts output to loads
Interesting video but no need to insult 'radio nerds'. The interference (surprised you didn't know) is usually caused by the switching regulator converting the DC to AC or just changing the DC voltage to provide the MPPT function. There is often limited filtering back to the source DC, the panels of course, and so the panels or just the wiring radiates. This can fail EMC requirements and OFCOM can and do visit to investigate some cases. There are some fixes involving choking the RFI at the inverter.
You also might want to check your mc 4 connectors for installationfaults. When moisture from the damp environment in the morning reaches your live circuits. your rcd will trip
Being an electrician looks fun I want to be one lol Pity I'm 64 now Although I've a ways messed about with electricity designing and modifying low voltage bike and cars cb radio and pc repairs ect Home wiring, sauna workshop I suppose I'm a bit old to go college and do proper electrician courses
When the sun is out and my Victron MPPT controller is charging my batteries, my Amateur Radio (Ham) equipment is useless! I think this is a common problem with MPPT controllers as they emitting lots of radio frequency noise when active!
There are a lot of rich people in the south of France, all the rich Europeans are concentrated there, so if you want to target the big villas and high-quality services for your business, I think it's the right place. Taxes are a secondary issue when you can double the amount of benefits.
@@Felix-st2ue As François says, everything is lumped together, but it all adds up to a lot of money all at once, and you realize how many taxes and services you're paying, which can be very scary, unlike in the U.S for example, where everything is separate, but in the end the total amounts aren't very far apart. The big difference is in salary levels, so you have to charge more to have the same standard of living.
Earth bonding of solar panels. Interesting and I have never got a straight answer on my installation in the UK. I have a metal roof (Kingspan ks1000). Inner and outer skin metal with PV mounting across trapezoidal. Metal fixings traversing through roof so path to inside of building. Should metal roof earth bonded on inner or outer skin to protect PV fault or lightening?
The video mentioned that unearthed panels give off radio signals.Would the panels also interfer with getting television signals if the antenna is located in the attic? Had perfect signal before the panels were installed, now its patchy enough.
In short, yes. Switched mode power supply circuits that you'll find in inverters are infamous for generating electrical noise unless they've been really well designed. Signals can radiate from the cables as well. Mounting the aerial outside will likely be the fix.
Still in full swing in the UK but I run my business from abroad and come back to the UK once a month for a week to work with the team. We have grown a lot and I am able to run things remotely most of the time thanks to the amazing team we have. Video update coming soon.
Don't write off the idea of running a business in France. I think corp tax in the UK and France is now the same (25%), and although the social contributions are high the pension you get at the end is much more than the state pension in the UK. Plus the health cover is (currently) better in France, saying that, the health system is creaking under the pressure, but not as bad as in the UK.
Lots of cowboy installers in Francetaking advantage of the French government’s “solar panels for €1 scheme”. If your solar installation is set up to deliver and sell power to the grid, EdF will inspect before they let you connect.
I don't really get why grounding a double insulated solar panel array would cause problems. In the Netherlands all solar arrays have to be grounded too and when they're installed by an official company they usually are. I've never heard of any problems with it unless a panel got damaged or non compliant connectors are used voiding the double insulated anymore and the ground might get in contact with the DC lines. The only problems with solar panels are the ones where + and - wires aren't installed next to each other but on a circle causing an induction loop. This can be prevented by not making a loop but putting the +, - and ground wires next to each other.
Unfortunately this is required in The Netherlands because of the NEN1010. Why grounding is so important? Because the underconstruction is an "vreemd geleidend" (extraneous conductive ?) part and therefor needs to be grounded. It protects people from an unlikely shook if they are on the roof and touch the under construction.
@@Edwin_Verschoor Why unfortunately? I think it's a good thing you have to ground everything as it also reduces EMI. Also as I said I don't really get why someone has problems when earthing/grounding the frame of a double insulated electrical device. The only problem with grounding and bonding when not done correctly you create all kinds of ground loops which will cause all kinds of invisible problems. I encounter a lot of wild west bonding in central heating systems where all kinds of stray currents are created. These cause all kinds of EMC problems. The PME/TN-C-S system is also problematic when it is combined with other external metallic piping like water, gas and city heating. Essentially there is nothing wrong with PME/TN-C-S system but when used, on all other incoming conductors galvanic isolation should be applied to mitigate stray currents. The French somewhat solved this the other way around by making TT system mandatory. Although TT and TN-S systems prevent stray neutral currents, it doesn't prevent EMI in ground loops from becoming a problem because ground noise from Switched Mode Power Supplies can still irradiate through the ground loops. I'm actually member of the work-group dirty electricity of "Kennisplatform EMV" and there is a lot of discussion going on how to solve these problems as a lot of groups are affected differently by EMI are affected by the improper grounding and bonding that has been going on for decades. That's why there is so much misinformation about grounding and bonding. The solution is simple. Whenever you want to bond something metal you have to make sure it isn't bonded anywhere else and when it is you have to apply galvanic isolation. This prevents stray currents from occuring. Why this isn't standard practise? Because it's more work to make something completely isolated and you also need specific matterials to first create an isolated system and then properly bond this system to the Protective Earth (CPC). The wrong way is like with the TT system simply not bonding whatever creates problems. Although this usually solves the EMI problem on short term, you increase the risks which are mitigated by bonding.
25:09 About the same in Belgium . above 45.000 euro you pay 50% tax in Belgium ( lower income = lower taxes ) .. one of the highest in Europe i think .. Especially as an independant sole trader no BV ( LTD in uk ) . If you have a BV ( ltd ) you can indeed do dividents and pay less taxes ( but more complicated ) So if the taxes are so low in UK why is Artisan then 3x times so expensive as an electrican in Belgium lol ...🤣😂
solar pannels structure is earthed because of many mounts that may be to tied and detroy the insulation (even allowing water to enter inside, close to shingles and cause major fire issue). That's not a fault, that's a SAFETY FEATURE.
Panels dont need earth. All metal parts of the pv installation need earth bonding. Didnt used to be that way but after an inspection on a older installation we had to fix that for 2000 panels on a flat roof.. not the best job in the world.
Get a quote from us: app.openquote.net/company/artisanelectrics
Jordon, equipotential bonding of PV modules over 120V dc has been a requirement in Australia & New Zealand since 2012 edition of our PV standard. There are several reasons but it was "triggered" by a child receiving an electric shock touching a metal ladder leaning agains the roof guttering. The cause was the normal capacitive coupling of the module's cells to the frame and the a.c. leakage through non-separated (transformerless) inverters. Up to approximately half grid voltage (a.c.) can be present on the frames of PV modules under normal operating conditions. The bonding provides a path for this small (typically < 1mA) leakage current to earth. The other reason for bonding is that a failure of the double insulation of the PV array can only be detected by the inverter if there is an earth reference for the inverter to measure against, typically done on startup. This can cause intermittent problems during wet or humid weather due to low resistance to frame of the modules (which is a breakdown of their double insulation).
Most of the increasingly popular all-in-one 'high frequency' PV/battery charger/inverter units aren't isolated PV either. It's stated in the manual either directly or implied, but so many people using them don't read it or understand the implications. It's a bit scary thinking about how many of these things are out there not installed properly, particularly in countries where electrical work is often undertaken by untrained people.
Thanks! Interesting to see if it comes to the UK eventually...
Exactly this. The majority of solar panels that i installed needs to be functional earthed, very rarely earthed for lightning.
Same in Belgium, its just a equipotential bonding. Started placing solar in 2008 and came into effect around the same year. (2012) lots of houses have velux windows from which you could potentially tough the Solar installation.
@@sanders3219that’s a very interesting point!
17:30 a 2-wire RCD tester like that isn't going to trip anything connected just between live & neutral
One contact before the RCD to N and the other contact after the RCD to L.
Then it works.
yah I saw the same thing and ask why is he trying like that? :D
Also, what about isolating/disconnecting the load and then testing RCD with 30mA /300 mA as there already leakage in the cct.. Also in AS/ NZ standards, there would be no way the cables would be laying on the roof like that without segregation..it not a UV thing it's a wear through the insulation in the wind thing! just sayn 😮
if it is between L and N it is actually a normal load.
Connection from N to L looks like a normal load .... RCD protects against currents that do not flow back via N.
Brilliant vlog. It would be great to see more of this content.💯%
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it 👍
Really informative, even for the relative layman that I am.
PS: Regarding taxes: I think income tax rates are actually lower than in the UK. It's the social contributions paid by employers and employees that are much higher (and maybe company tax, I don't know). But on the up side, we don't have people dying in ambulance queues because there aren't any hospital beds and you can get from Marseille to Paris in just over 3 hours by train. So, I'm happy to pay my social contributions and taxes here, even though they do take a big chunk out of my salary.
Keep the videos coming!
Connected RCD tester like a load between L and N, and is surprised that it's not tripping. Are you really qualified electrician? 🤣
My thoughts exactly!!!!
Proof of a real P.V Cowboy...
I'd guess on a TN-C-S system, placing one probe on the neutral before the RCD and one on the live after the RCD would have the same effect as neutral and earth are bonded at the DNO transformer? Still a pretty silly mistake given he knew it was TT.
The sheet under neath is a fibre cement roof sheet (my sister lives in Bergerac and they have exactly the same system) they then lay the clay tile over the crown of the profile
Top tip - don't ever attempt walking on a fibre cement roof in UK, the purlin centres are larger and more often than not the roof sheet will fail (with no warning either), its also illegal to access a fibre cement roof in UK without some form of safety, usually netting under the roof or a harness system on the roof that you can connect onto at the eaves with walkboards to access the working area
So your roof is made of the same stuff you line your bathroom walls with? Well at least it will handle water. LOL
Loved the Video! Francois was an awesome guy. The reason we now have to earth the rails is to carry out insulation resistance testing periodically. It is becoming a big problem as pv panels get older the silicons are breaking down, creating positive or negative to earth or gradually shorting the panel. If you have to climb up on the roof to test this you will need to cover the panels first.
Great thanks for sharing that info!
Cleaning panels is what got me to put them on the ground so they are accessible. Dust is easy, but pollen glues itself. I spent a month designing a tilt tracking system for the roof that would fit in the tight space down near the eaves for the lower panels I never got to build more than the test prototype.
@@robertsmith2956 How about a gardena micro-drip system equipped with sprayers and a detergent addon to lift the pollen. Essentially the ability to wash the panels down without having to get out a garden hose (and can be done on an irrigation timer)
@@miscbits6399 I thought about it, even a wash roller on tracks to run down the panels. But drip systems clog when dealing with pollen. It was much easier to put the panels on the ground, and build a shed behind them to hold the electronics.
Interesting that you mentioned amateur radio.... I'm a radio ham, and moved from France to Northumberland into a fairly recently built estate. There are five houses in the immediate vicinity, and 3.5 MHz 80 metres is completely unusable due to a high level of RF noise.....
Interesting thanks for sharing!
Bonding PV panels to the AC-linked Earth is not a good idea with RCDs in the circuit.
Bonding PV panels to a dedicated DC-only Earth spike is a good solution and helps reduce EMF issues affecting all sorts of RF signals from Amateur Radio and Wi-Fi (I had both of these issues).
Both "loft" and "attic" are used in British English to describe a large space under a roof that's above the main occupied areas of a building. However, the terms have different meanings in some definitions:
Attic
Usually refers to an entire floor of a building, or a room immediately under the roof that's accessed by a staircase. Attics can be used for storage, HVAC equipment, or insulation, or they can be converted into private rooms.
Loft
Usually refers to one or more rooms or spaces under the roof that are accessed by a hatch and loft ladder. Lofts can be used for a specific purpose, like an organ loft in a church, or they can be converted into a living space. Lofts often have an open-plan design that combines contemporary design with historical architecture
Attic: permanently accessible, liveable space. Loft, accessed by temporary means (ie ladder) not liveable.
@@calmeilles In the US, we use that term in the reverse. Attic is an unfinished space, temp. access. A loft is usually a semi finished space that is elevated.
I have just done a UK Level 3 electricians course and am also have a BE(Electrical). I now live in the French Alpes - I am looking for work as an apprentice or mate in any sort of electrical area (install, repairs, solar, ..). If anyone has tips finding work in France with UK qualifications I would love to know :).
You can see with ENIC-NARIC office. It's a government office who can recognize and give you an equivalent of your diplomas in France. It has a ~70-80€ fees and can take several months to receive the French diploma but you'll be good to find a job here without starting from the beginning.
Hope that will help you.
@@sennkei6091 that sounds amazing! Thanks heaps for the info..
@@RobertMunro I would recommend also learning the French system of electrical things as a lot of the regulations do not directly transfer
@@UKsystems yes I have been looking at the schneider set - which I think is more iec standard . Have you seen an official set of French regs online by chance ?
In the netherlands we also have this issue sometimes this is because the newer inverters dont have a transformer in themand thats why there is no galvanic isolation between the pv panels and de AC-grid, so mostly some leakege current will flow over the dc connection trough earth and this wil trip the RCD,
P.S.
Jordan i am a dutch electrician, so if you ever in the netherlands i would love to show how the dutch are doing electrical.
If I ever do go to the Netherlands then I will hold you to that deal!
I think a good example of such inverters are the IQ micro-inverters from Enphase?
And that's one of the reasons why here, we also need the Q-relays from Enphase between the micro-inverters and the breakers, so there is a real mechanical disconnection when power is cut?
Transformless inverters always will have ac leak to pv and all hybrid inverters is transfromless, so if you have hybrid inverter always turn in off before connecting pv, because even when pv is off you can get shocked by touching pv input contacts on inverter because there is AC leak from inverter and that’s normal on hybrid inverters
You could actually get flexible conduit and paint it a teracorra colour to hide the cables
More Francois please. Great video and facinating to see how other countries do it
Love it! At my House in Spain the Earth cable is a sort of combo of 20 earth cables. And we installed the Solars on Day one, and on Day 2 we installed airco's and suddenly my Outlet for my EV wasn't working anymore.... We found out that the earth was disconnected..... Oeps
Excellent stuff.
I'm in France and doing a 32kWh battery system with LiFePO4. I don't understand why that would need drainage.
A few years ago one of my friends met a french electrician who was also a Plumber, on his van it said something like don't worry about the sparks the Leaks will Put it out!
22:50 earthing solar panels will probably also help with lightning protection - won't stop a direct strike but could be useful for nearby strikes
You mean when lightning strikes the system directly, that surge will fry your whole electrical system. I'd rather avoid that...
You mean of course you want to earth the frames of the solar panels and not the solar panels themselves. Right? And yes of course they must be grounded.
@@HEelektra When lightning strikes directly it does not matter. Grounding the frames helps dissipating the energy into the earth. If it enters the house you are in a world of hurt. That may or may not happen. I, and most of my neighbors do not even have lightning rods on our buildings. That is not necessary here in middle Europe.
@@HEelektra if it directly strikes your property , at least the earthing might reduce the amount of the rest of your electrical system that explodes out of the walls.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 I had a strike on tree out front. Blew all the bark off killing it. It also traveled up the phone line that ran through it's branches, into the house where it blew the back off the DSL modem. Went up the network line to the firewall box, and melted the jack on it stopping it from getting to rest of network. But it also went up L2 knocking out some other equipment, and popping the fuse on that leg. Had a buick coil do the same thing when it cracked open and fired into the ECU instead of the spark plug wires.
Surge protector doesn't stop the power spike when it come from the house. At least not a useful stop. Maybe that i what held it to that one line segment.
I was shocked the network cable handled the load that melted the connectors on both ends.
Great video Jordan. Really enjoyed the interaction with a French Electrician.
30:00 I think François meant corrugated rooves. We do have them but don't put decorative tiles on top. Just leave them looking nasty
Nice one Jordan, more vids with just you and Russell Crowe. And the sunshine will take us through winter ,!!
Thanks for watching!
fabulous film jordan and mate....we live in France and elctricians are fabulous.
In NZ And Aussie they have to be bonded PV earths to the main earths.
This is a good video format, Jordan. You should come visit us in the US and see what people are up to.
The panel earth bond thing (~21:00) was mentioned on the recent e5 video about becoming 'live' in certain situations, which I suspected would be RFI filters that need an earth connection, that if left open gains half supply volts through the Y capacitors in the RFI cct.
Just talked to my installer who added some extra details.
Apparently, originally, rails were earthed (CPC) but then became a part of the lightening hazard system so would need surge protection, plus the potential DC leakage would/could affect the circuit breakers if not rated for additional DC. Hence the earthing requirement got removed. And now it's possible other systems assume the presence of an earth. So it's building to a bag of worms..
Another thought about earth bonding - although the PV panels are on the roof out of the householder's reach - other trades may need to be on the roof (e.g. attending the aircon or heatpump) and they may find themselves in contact with both their equipment and the PV metalwork..
The flexible conduit is called "gaine" and provides the double insulation requirement to the single core conductors inside, it is used pretty much everywhere as it allows (in theory) a damaged wire to be replaced.
He is correct to say that for surface mounted wiring gaine must be used or a double insulated cable but the ones he pointed out which were not in gaine were red and black IIRC single insulated 16 or 25mm2 supply cables so should have been in gaine or trunking, also the red and black unless they were both live conductors should have been blue for the neutral.
A real cowboy job and typical of a solar or swimming pool installation in my country.
I was shouting out loud when he tried to test the RCD between phase and neutral and the other guy did not even know it was wrong.
Did my solar install myself, I'm living at Reunion Island, loads of sun, but lot of wind, so had to secure... .
Everything's ok, grounded, never a probleù, but man, the costs are insane...
Went from 5-6 euros a day of elecrticity to 1.4-1.5 euros, huge change.
I won't go full autonomy at the moment, but it has been a huge help, I can charge my EV during 2.5-3 hours a day usually, huge help!
And my everything is grounded, even solar pannels. No problem at the moment, even when there is a power outage.
Awesome! 🤩
@@artisanelectrics Thanks.
But people should be sure of what they're doing, I'm no pro', just had a lot of documentation, did a lot of research and asked questions to professionnals (and a lot of them weren't that professionnal).
I run on solar from 8.00 to usually 20.00 on a good sunny day, I don't have a lot of batteries (only 48V at the moment, looking to buy 4 mores 12V), since it is really expansive.
Not re-selling to EDF (french provide), since it is a huge pain in the *ahem*, that is why I will probably expand storage.
And thanks for you videos, always interesting to watch themn keep it up !
Over Voltage Protection NEEDS earth bonding of the Solar panels.
Also:
In counties with a lot of snow like here in Austria homeowners may also go onto the roof to clear the snow.
In that case live voltage on a panel could be deadly.
Solar panels build up static charge, that's why we ground them in the Netherlands.
I live in France so thanks for this review of French installations!
Would love to see more content like this. I'm in the UK but used to live in Italy where they use conduit for all homes, it is so much each to add new wires, why do you think we don't do this in the UK?
In the US on metal surfaces have to be bonded so solar panels do you have to be grounded it's interesting I didn't know that the UK doesn't CPC solar panels. Basically it comes down to having all metal surfaces at equal potential bonding. And recently I saw a couple videos that are indicating cheaper inverters are causing the solar panels to float with touch voltages that are bad. Noise would be another thing there's enough noise in the world it would be nice if it stayed out of the radio frequency causing Wi-Fi issues and ham radio issues although that's the first I've heard of that with Solar.
Roofs in Scotland are solid sheeted flat and waterproof before counter battens and tiling battens. That has been building regulations for at least 40 years. Usually OSB or Ply first. No fixing point issues.
Jordan I always bring an earth wire from the rails and pannels. If they are close to a velux window then you must anyway. But my seaward tester requires connection to rail for testing so rather than get a ladder off the van it's done.
Solar panels have the same make up as a capacitor. An array can build up a voltage. Hence one of the reasons they get earthed.
If you are ever in Mexico near or in Ciudad Victoria, let me know and I'll show my DIY setup. I have the same roof setup, concrete roof with clay tiles on top. We get an average temperature of 42°C here, nice and warm. Greetings, and excellent videos.
Loved seeing how things are done in France
Solax non hybrid inverters have a built in ground test; upon powering up they inject to small current into the ground to see if it is there. In earlier software revisions this ground current tripped the RCD. So every morning at sunrise the RCD tripped. I ended up living without it. There can be considerable capacitive ground current when using thin film type PV panels and single phase inverters. SMA has an app note how to trick and compensate for this. Three phase inverters have the avg panel voltage at ground level, and do not suffer from capacitive leakage
Really enjoyed this video, Definitely make some more .
Thanks 🙏 more to come!
should do the "Shocking truth about solar in Northern Ireland".
shockingly, we occasionally see the sun! currently producing 7.2 kW from my 7.8kWp system!
literally 5 minutes later, down to 416W...
18:40 there is no ground-neutral bond in off grid mode. In on-grid mode the bond should be removed to not have grounding loops.
RF "earth bonding" can be done with suitable capacitors. It gets complicated because long earth cables are inductors but I can see why the French would want the panels bonded
FWIW British installations are extremely lax on RFI issues, due to decades of non-enforcement by OFCOM
Interesting...I have a 2 year old installation with a Fronius Symo transformerless inverter on a 30 mA RCD and it never tripped. The leakage on the AC side is about 5 mA (I used a KPS DCM300LEAK to measure). I regularly test the RCD with a Metrel MI 3125.
Interesting video 👌 Russel Crowe for sure 😂 Knowledgeable guy, but could tell he was gutted he didn't have his proper tools 😂
Haha my thoughts exactly!
The best thing from this video is the Leffe Blond, my favorite belgium beer :)
Great taste!
Good choice although I prefer brun
Great post, thanks! Two things.
Does bonding the solar panels and rails not introduce a ground potential above surface level and therefore increase the likelihood of a lightening strike to a greater level than if the system was not bonded? Ive only ever bonded panels in the UK on ground mount.
Also, I recently did an off-grid system for some mates in south France, around Montpellier, and they have expressed that their families were interested in solar. Looks like there is a decent market for providing solar to expats out there and I am looking for ways to potentially get involved. If anyone one knows of what I need to do to get involved that'd be great. If it is a matter of retraining then I would be open to work with a company in order to ensure compliance with french regulations.
Excellent video, really liked your interactions with François, certainly worth making more.
Many thanks!
19:52 regarding "i'm telling you what to do now": Nothing wrong about that, actually it is good practice in software engineering called pair programming. One person does the coding and another one tells you what to do in general (but not dictating the code letter by letter). I assume this would work well in other crafts like electical as well.
Very interesting video and what a nice chap!
RCD or "Interrupteur différentiel 2P 230V~ 40A type AC 300mA - 2 modules" Legrand brand - Found it at 60€.
They could find a solution to run cleanly the cables from the roof to the DC box.......maybe they could but was pricier.
thanks, another great video maybe next time bring your toolbox with so you know that you are doing tests with tools you know.
You must test RCD on top contacts not on input (bottom contacts) and im car mechanic 🤔 and load input should be from the bottom if im right and top contacts output to loads
Interesting video but no need to insult 'radio nerds'. The interference (surprised you didn't know) is usually caused by the switching regulator converting the DC to AC or just changing the DC voltage to provide the MPPT function. There is often limited filtering back to the source DC, the panels of course, and so the panels or just the wiring radiates. This can fail EMC requirements and OFCOM can and do visit to investigate some cases. There are some fixes involving choking the RFI at the inverter.
Most pv panel manufacturers want you to earth the panels. I think they do that to prevent PID.
The trees lining the roads are plane trees, not oaks. This was Napoleon's idea, to provide shade for his troops as they moved around France.
29 degrees is hot? That’s cute, that’s a nice day in autum or spring . Come work in an Australian summer Jordan 😂
Interesting to see the standard of work / planning - better (?) more pragmatic than the UK.. More please :-)
You also might want to check your mc 4 connectors for installationfaults. When moisture from the damp environment in the morning reaches your live circuits. your rcd will trip
in Hungary, we bond and earth sooar panels but we earth it with a separate earthing rod
Being an electrician looks fun I want to be one lol
Pity I'm 64 now
Although I've a ways messed about with electricity designing and modifying low voltage bike and cars cb radio and pc repairs ect
Home wiring, sauna workshop
I suppose I'm a bit old to go college and do proper electrician courses
When the sun is out and my Victron MPPT controller is charging my batteries, my Amateur Radio (Ham) equipment is useless! I think this is a common problem with MPPT controllers as they emitting lots of radio frequency noise when active!
Would it help to build a faraday cage for the mppt controller ?
There are a lot of rich people in the south of France, all the rich Europeans are concentrated there, so if you want to target the big villas and high-quality services for your business, I think it's the right place. Taxes are a secondary issue when you can double the amount of benefits.
Haha true
And to be fair, the French welfare system is quite generous. So while you have to pay a lot, you're getting a lot out of it.
@@Felix-st2ue As François says, everything is lumped together, but it all adds up to a lot of money all at once, and you realize how many taxes and services you're paying, which can be very scary, unlike in the U.S for example, where everything is separate, but in the end the total amounts aren't very far apart. The big difference is in salary levels, so you have to charge more to have the same standard of living.
Belgium is on par with France from a tax perspective but likely gets better spent (more useful) as in Belgium
I miss Aix ! Got to get back there but my work drags me back - must delegate more..
Loved it!
I was thinking Karl Urban, especially when he put the glasses on
Earth bonding of solar panels. Interesting and I have never got a straight answer on my installation in the UK.
I have a metal roof (Kingspan ks1000). Inner and outer skin metal with PV mounting across trapezoidal. Metal fixings traversing through roof so path to inside of building.
Should metal roof earth bonded on inner or outer skin to protect PV fault or lightening?
Would that bonding issue be solved if it went to a separate erarth stake? No interference with the system, but still earthed.
I really liked that video, nice trip to France, meeting new friend, great scenery and awesome holiday feelings
Thank you so much!
Perfect Scots accent! Region must have been North Scotland he visited 🙃
I think so!
Aberdeenshire I would suggest. Don’t ask for a village, but I’d guess Alford area.
hi! In Romania the labour is taxed with 48,5%!!! and it sucks.....
The video mentioned that unearthed panels give off radio signals.Would the panels also interfer with getting television signals if the antenna is located in the attic? Had perfect signal before the panels were installed, now its patchy enough.
In short, yes. Switched mode power supply circuits that you'll find in inverters are infamous for generating electrical noise unless they've been really well designed. Signals can radiate from the cables as well. Mounting the aerial outside will likely be the fix.
So, are you no longer operating in the UK now Jordan?
Hadn’t realised you’d moved to France.
Still in full swing in the UK but I run my business from abroad and come back to the UK once a month for a week to work with the team. We have grown a lot and I am able to run things remotely most of the time thanks to the amazing team we have. Video update coming soon.
Francois! How do you install on this type of roof!?!?!? I have a customer in Australia with the same roof.
UNI-T has a UT251A clamp meter to measure ground leakage current
Solaredge inverters/optimizers were temporarily forbidden in germany due to EMC issues, radiating and inhibiting car door remotes control systems
In Europe highest Taxis always in between Denmark Germany and Austria
Gerard Butler is Francois look a like
😂
Careful about the tax arrangements .. in France it includes all social security and basic health cover.
Sounded good to me (the Scottish accent) but then I'm a southerner. Not sure about loft being BE and attic AE though?
Don't write off the idea of running a business in France. I think corp tax in the UK and France is now the same (25%), and although the social contributions are high the pension you get at the end is much more than the state pension in the UK. Plus the health cover is (currently) better in France, saying that, the health system is creaking under the pressure, but not as bad as in the UK.
When there is a fire don't park your car on the grass but stay on the road when there is no other traffic
Lots of cowboy installers in Francetaking advantage of the French government’s “solar panels for €1 scheme”. If your solar installation is set up to deliver and sell power to the grid, EdF will inspect before they let you connect.
I don't really get why grounding a double insulated solar panel array would cause problems. In the Netherlands all solar arrays have to be grounded too and when they're installed by an official company they usually are. I've never heard of any problems with it unless a panel got damaged or non compliant connectors are used voiding the double insulated anymore and the ground might get in contact with the DC lines.
The only problems with solar panels are the ones where + and - wires aren't installed next to each other but on a circle causing an induction loop. This can be prevented by not making a loop but putting the +, - and ground wires next to each other.
Unfortunately this is required in The Netherlands because of the NEN1010. Why grounding is so important? Because the underconstruction is an "vreemd geleidend" (extraneous conductive ?) part and therefor needs to be grounded. It protects people from an unlikely shook if they are on the roof and touch the under construction.
@@Edwin_Verschoor Why unfortunately? I think it's a good thing you have to ground everything as it also reduces EMI. Also as I said I don't really get why someone has problems when earthing/grounding the frame of a double insulated electrical device.
The only problem with grounding and bonding when not done correctly you create all kinds of ground loops which will cause all kinds of invisible problems.
I encounter a lot of wild west bonding in central heating systems where all kinds of stray currents are created. These cause all kinds of EMC problems.
The PME/TN-C-S system is also problematic when it is combined with other external metallic piping like water, gas and city heating. Essentially there is nothing wrong with PME/TN-C-S system but when used, on all other incoming conductors galvanic isolation should be applied to mitigate stray currents.
The French somewhat solved this the other way around by making TT system mandatory. Although TT and TN-S systems prevent stray neutral currents, it doesn't prevent EMI in ground loops from becoming a problem because ground noise from Switched Mode Power Supplies can still irradiate through the ground loops.
I'm actually member of the work-group dirty electricity of "Kennisplatform EMV" and there is a lot of discussion going on how to solve these problems as a lot of groups are affected differently by EMI are affected by the improper grounding and bonding that has been going on for decades. That's why there is so much misinformation about grounding and bonding. The solution is simple. Whenever you want to bond something metal you have to make sure it isn't bonded anywhere else and when it is you have to apply galvanic isolation. This prevents stray currents from occuring.
Why this isn't standard practise? Because it's more work to make something completely isolated and you also need specific matterials to first create an isolated system and then properly bond this system to the Protective Earth (CPC).
The wrong way is like with the TT system simply not bonding whatever creates problems. Although this usually solves the EMI problem on short term, you increase the risks which are mitigated by bonding.
So, you put on a harness and hold the end of the rope in your hand? Very safe, I'm sure.
DC cables "naked" with direct contact to the tiles? And quite low on ventilation below the panels.
We were entertained.
Yeah I enjoyed the content of this video. More please 😀
Deal!
I think Alibaba testing equipment nullifies all results as void ;) you could replicate rain with the hose
25:09 About the same in Belgium . above 45.000 euro you pay 50% tax in Belgium ( lower income = lower taxes ) .. one of the highest in Europe i think ..
Especially as an independant sole trader no BV ( LTD in uk ) . If you have a BV ( ltd ) you can indeed do dividents and pay less taxes ( but more complicated )
So if the taxes are so low in UK why is Artisan then 3x times so expensive as an electrican in Belgium lol ...🤣😂
I really enjoyed the video and I would love to see a follow-up.
Great! Thanks for letting me know.
solar pannels structure is earthed because of many mounts that may be to tied and detroy the insulation (even allowing water to enter inside, close to shingles and cause major fire issue). That's not a fault, that's a SAFETY FEATURE.
Def Pedro Pascal!!! - just read the other comments - I can see Russell Crowe too!
He looks like Arnold Solarfitter... 'I'll Be back' ..'to sort out the breaker'...
Panels dont need earth. All metal parts of the pv installation need earth bonding. Didnt used to be that way but after an inspection on a older installation we had to fix that for 2000 panels on a flat roof.. not the best job in the world.
As the RCD is tripping at 30mA could it be a wrongly badged Chinese 300mA one.
Drinking Belgium beer in France LOL
more please