Programming Series #5: Dynamic Effort Explained and Why I HATE Speed Work for Strength!
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Since Westside Barbell gained popularity over the last few decades, speed work (dynamic effort method) has become a staple in the routines of many powerlifting hopefuls. In this video, I explain how the human body produces force, outline what really limits performance, and make the case against speed work for strength gains.
I paused the video to make this comment, so I apologize for that and I will finish watching momentarily. However, I just wanted to commend you on the incredibly high-quality, useful information - as well as the well-organized and clear presentation of that information - that is present in all of your videos.
I'm not a great lifter by any means (like, at all), and I try to keep an open mind, but honestly since I've been around for a while I end up just watching strength training / fitness videos for motivation for the most part, because most of the time there isn't much information presented that I haven't heard before. With your videos, though, there has been either something that I legitimately didn't know or at least hadn't heard presented a certain way in every one of them.
Your channel deserves far more subscribers and far more views, and I have no doubt that it will continue to grow. In the meantime, I hope that you know that your expertise and the effort you clearly put in to making these videos for us does not go unnoticed, nor is it unappreciated. Thank you.
Those words mean a lot to me. Much appreciated!
Absolutely agreed! I love this channel!
Agreed. This guy must have been a Chemistry or Biology high school teacher or something along these lines at some point. He explains stuff so clearly and draws well too.
💯
I sure wish I was closer to this guy’s gym. It’s pretty rare for me to find someone on RUclips who has such trustworthy quality info. He definitely knows what he’s talking about.
The reason that speed squats DID work for me was because I had plenty of excess glute strength, and my glutes were the rocket or my squat, but the speed squats with a belt, and practicing pushing out in every direction on the belt helped me create a strong block of isometric strength connecting the hips to the bar. Even though I did doubles fast, I pushed out all around on the belt with my abs and obliques for probably 8-10 seconds per set and my goal was to make my core like a block of cement so that as soon as my hips fired, the bar started to rise rather than have the core absorb a lot of force. 10 sets creating 100% maximum ring stability around the waist and lasting 8-10 second with a walkout really helped me but weren't as stressful on the joints or CNS as doing heavier squats all the time. Speed squats also kept me in good shape. It gave me about 10 minutes with a heart rate in the 80-90% range. I typically did EMOM for 8-12 sets.
I like his straightforward , no nonsense approach.
Thanks a bunch for the video! I appreciate all of the time you put into it.🖒🏻 I think something you could've elaborated on is the amount of injuries caused by speed deadlifts. It isn't safe or useful if your goals are strength and endurance
Is dynamic work useful for athletes, outside of powerlifting? Will it increase rfd?
Makes sense that it would, but squatting and benching are so non-sport specific that I'm not sure of the benefit over typical plyometric work. A seasoned Strength and Conditioning coach could answer that better than I could.
I’m not trying to be a smart ass but isn’t speed work just a fancy name for light bench or squat or whatever day?
People have come to look at it as a 'light day', but the origins of it is to train rate of force development specifically as a way to improve your 1rm. A typical WS/conjugate split needs that break from heavy weights and getting light touches with sub max weights is a great way to work technique while aiding recovery. My big point (besides speed work not doing what they say it does) is that there are a lot of ways to do that which are better and more strength specific, imo.
I don't think people realize that Louie Simmons originally prescribed max effort work TWICE a week in the 90's.
He found out that his athletes could not handle it mentally & physically for weeks on end, he then put the dynamic effort in the place of the second max effort day.
In an interview, Travis Mash said they wouldn't take speed work seriously and just use the opportunity to work up to another banded max lol. I can't believe anyone stayed in one piece long enough to hit a record.
Great video and i aporeciate your thoughts but i do disagree. The reason why you fail a rep is because the bar stops accelerating, even if you can grind; the reason why you are grinding in the first place is because the weight slowed down; the goal of grinding is to not be grinding, meaning while you're grinding you're trying to keep the bar from slowing down, so speed is always the goal, and grinding and speed should compliment each other. You mentioned that in order to move the weight with speed, you first have to be able to move the weight; but in order to even move the weight you first have to accelerate. The better you accelerate the more weight you can move, and the faster you move the better you accelerate. So if plyometrics and speed work help with rate of force development, I don't see how they don't help with force production. The amount of muscle fibers involved has nothing to do with the amount of force that is actually being produced. If 100 muscle fibers move the same weight the same speed as 50 muscle fibers, they both produce the same force, so not having enough time to recruit "enough" muscle fibers to produce optimal force does not make sense to me. JM Blakely basically took the principle of sport specificity and turned it into "you can only get better at a 1rm by doing a 1rm". Obviously when you lift heavy, you are going to lift slowly, but the point of speed work is to make what is heavy and slow light and fast, so that you can have a heavier "heavy". Speed is a component of the competition lift that should be trained just as when you do the JM press, bringing the bar above your neck, which you will not do in competition btw, in order to develop the triceps, a component of the competition lift.
Rate of force production*
I could get into detail about a lot of this, but for now I'll just say the muscle fiber hypothetical was off. Muscle fibers fire all or nothing and how much force one produces is based on surface area. Literally the only way 100 fibers produces the same force as 50 is if no more than 50 of the 100 are used at a time.
Thats for each individual fiber. Maybe 50 to 100 is a bad example, but i was speaking based on rate of force development. The fact that you want fast twitch muscle fibers not slow twitch fibers to move the heavy weight shows that speed is what moves heavy weight. The faster the force is applied the more the force is amplified. It makes sense for the system of force production to behave like each fast twitch muscle fiber. If it behaves like a slow twitch fiber, having each fiber gradually produce force until they all are firing, then there is less acceleration, but if they all fire at the same time, there is greater acceleration within the range of motion. Again, acceleration is the opposite of what causes a lift to fail, and the very thing that causes a lift to start, so it seems that it is the goal. And when you look at any sport besides track that involves speed, you don't get directly rewarded for how fast you go: if you complete a snatch faster or slower, it still counts, a touch down is a touch down whether it's tom brady running into the end zone or tyreek hill. The fact is that force, often described as a push or pull, is in a sense an '"explosion", and the more force you need to apply, the more explosive you need to be.
@@hondro7430 I was trying to type to address every point you made and it was just taking too long. Here's a few.
"So if plyometrics and speed work help with rate of force development, I don't see how they don't help with force production."
That means you don't understand the fundamental difference between strength and speed, which means you are making strong opinions you aren't qualified to have. This was covered in depth in the video, I recommend viewing that part again.
"not having enough time to recruit "enough" muscle fibers to produce optimal force does not make sense to me"
Again, fundamental part of the discussion between strength and speed. This one isn't up for debate, it's established science. I recommend researching this farther.
"Obviously when you lift heavy, you are going to lift slowly, but the point of speed work is to make what is heavy and slow light and fast, so that you can have a heavier "heavy"."
You CANNOT make heavy weight move faster without actually increasing your maximum force capabilities. If a certain weight moves faster, it suggests you have gotten stronger, and light explosive reps DO NOT increase your maximum force production (or your ability to get there faster) because you DO NOT produce maximum force during these reps!! Again, I covered this, you likely glossed over it.
"The fact is that force, often described as a push or pull, is in a sense an '"explosion""
Nope, that shows that you are basing your argument off of a false assumption that force and speed are linked (likely because you've seen some presentation where they wrote F=MA on a white board and called it case closed). Acceleration does not imply that something is happening relatively fast, acceleration occurs when an object goes from rest to motion. I have to accelerate to get out of my chair, to pick up a cup of coffee, and to move my fingers to type this.
I appreciate your engagement, but you painted a picture that makes sense to you given a lot of missing pieces.
Bro: man i need to do more speed work so i can get thru my sticking point.
Me: bro you dont have a sticking point you're just weak
No one wants to admit they are weak!!
@@AlexanderBromley Hard truths
@Natty Fatty Powerlifting ahh, a gymbro's staple
So Accomodating Resistance and minimax training that Westside focuses on?
Usually when bros get into the science behind lifting, I click off or go to sleep, but somehow this man manages to hold my attention. Cheers mate you get a like from me
He's not a bro, the man has competed at the highest level in strongman
@@evancawley3236 we’re all bros bro. We’re all gonna make it bro
Notice he didn’t say “bro science” he said a bro getting into the science
@@undeniablySomeGuy exaxtly.
I train in a USPA certified gym and I get coached by a guy who trained at west side for years. Dude is an animal and trains like one too. He’s got me doing a hybrid of sorts, some conjugate style “speed” work thrown in but at higher weight percentages, less reps and focus on form. Doesn’t matter how heavy the weight is, he expects me to get that shit up quick, grinding is to be expected. I’ve seen a tremendous amount of improvements in my 3 lifts, my stability, my core strength and over all power. Then again, I’m not on a full blown west side style training method. I do work with chains and bands but with an emphasis on how much weight is loaded on the bar and the bands/chains being there to create more tension. For example, I’ll have 75%-90% loaded and toss some chains or a band on for the ol razzle dazzle. I can see where the methodology makes sense but I can also see how it can be foolish to think that moving 50% really fast 24 x 3 is putting in work.
If you bench 500lbs you will move 185lbs fast. Moving 185lbs fast will not make you bench 500lbs. People need to stop obsessing on finding a "better way" and just work hard, put in the work. Generally speaking people don't want to work hard. Idiots in my gym will squat 135lbs for 3 reps, rest 10 minutes, squat 225lbs for 1, rest 15 minutes, squat 275lbs for 1, then move on to foam rolling. It's pathetic. They can't figure out why their squat has gone from 245lbs to 275lbs in 3 years of training. They refuse to accept they don't know what they are doing. They fool themselves into believing they are training smart. The truth is squatting 3 sets of 8-10 reps to near failure with 1-2 minutes rest between sets is really hard and they don't want to work hard.
Can't like this enough. I've seen it in every gym I've ever been to and fight like hell to keep it out of mine. More guys have gotten accidentally strong from brutal (if misguided) efforts than have ever gotten strong running a complex program without said effort.
@@AlexanderBromley Same here in the UK gyms, people looking for the cures for problems they are not strong enough to have. That and ego, complexity usually is ignorance dressed in a silk suit and used as a substitute for actual progression.
In will be lying if i said I didn’t say I agree with some of your stuff.
Here is my perspective. I started talking to Louie in 1988. I was a high school /college hammer thrower. I was already strong when I started talking to Louie as I squatted 535 bench 335 dead 535 RAW as a 17 year old 220 lb lifter. I actually spent a brief amount of time 1992 at Westside Barbell and they tolerated me hanging around learning and training. Continues to be mentored by Louie by phone and mail 15 years as I competed at high level in the amateur Highland Games.
Here is some perspective.
When I was there there was minimal gear. They put their shirts and suits on day of the meet. And the gear back then gave u almost no help.
Then there was not 7 different feds with 100 divisions and several types of “elite”
With just local neighborhood guys they already had accumulated 70 elite totals
They were not using bands and Chains then
They were and still are train mostly raw and are and were very fucking strong raw
A few of the fears of strength I witnessed there all raw
Tom Waddle 800 lb below parallel box squat belt only
Dorris Simmons 325 ss bar low box squat weight 118 lbs
George halbert 455 steep incline close grip bench.
Dave Tate 405 forhead level close grip overhead pin press
Kenny Patterson 500 x 5 floor press 550 x 1 same session
I can go on
Back then the all squared on below parallel boxes and the judging standards had not changed.
The typical waves were 25-30 lifts (8x3, 12x2 etc) no bands chain 75-80-85%
The system works. They have changed lots because advancement in gear tech and changing judging standards in the feds they choose to compete in
Now as as full time coach i don’t see the use in bands and chains on the speed days nor do I use the box for my RAW lifters and for lifters that are not very strong yet (elite total). We do waves 65-90%. And then of course the max effort rotations on max effort day
The system works. Conjugate has produced food raw lifters too
It’s a supreme system for athletes in general in my opinion
90s a bit high dont you think? for speed
Hello, sir. As a biology nerd and a fellow meathead, it is great to see a meathead that knows his science and can make a coherent argument for his position.
Thank you! Much appreciated.
Great video! I fell into the trap of doing speed work with the M=F*A crap and it didn't do anything. I will say that I think the main reason why the Westside lifters and athletes that go to Westside succeed is all the extra volume that they do. They really should change the name of speed day to volume day. They do a ton of volume on their main 4 days AND have 4 smaller workouts throughout the week. I have to give Louie credit where he prescribes 80% of the daily work load being done as accessories is quite effective. It's funny, Louie loves the 10x10 to 8x8 to 6x6 protocol to replace speed benching for 12 weeks and reports great gains... No wonder. The one thing I like about 30-40% with bands is that it works as a fantastic warm up and even then doing jumps, med ball tosses/slams, and plyo pushups is just as effective to prime the nervous system. I think this is a case of giving credit to success on the wrong variable. Countless number of people just do their 4 days and do 1-2 accessories and wonder why they aren't making any progress. Again, great video. Thank you for making it.
I agree with you; regular heavy training with a lot of volume is a recipe for success no matter who you are. I find Louie's affirmation of a linear program to substitute his dynamic day EXTREMELY ironic lol. I wonder if he winces when he talks about it, remembering all of the times he referred to linear/periodized approaches as a waste of time.
I have seen what you talk about with guys imitating the system but not taking the accessory seriously. The compound lifts are fun, but no one wants to hang around and do 30 sets of what is essentially body building. That's what reinforces my perspective: scratch the speed work and you will still grow; ditch the volume and you aren't going anywhere.
Came across your channel a few weeks ago. The more content I watch the more I am impressed. The new "norm" seems to be to over-complicate everything. Love how you break everything down in simple, understandable, and practical terms. Great content! Hope your channel continues to grow!
This video is a great complement to your westside video. You came off as a bit of a hater, hence the name and your content, but this adds more credence to your view of the method overall. No visible frustration here as I saw in the first video. Well done sir !
Personally, speed work for me is very beneficial when it comes to teaching myself to be explosive and aggressive when pushing through sticking points. Example, when I train speed deadlifts with or without accomodating resistance, I find that when I perform my actual deadlifts, I'm much more aggressive and explosive off of the floor versus when I haven't trained DE for 2-3 months. I think there's a lot of merit it to it, from my own anecdotal experience, but that being said, it may not benefit everyone the same way either.
One of the most professionally made videos on the topic. Keep the good work and putting effort into what you're doing
Thanks for breaking it down, Time to remove DE bench from my workouts, I found it didn’t help much apart from technique, but since I’m doing bench for volume work it’s safe to say it doesn’t hold much benefit anymore.
Speed work really helped my technique and overall explosiveness. Didn’t really do a whole lot for strength. My 5rm for bench weighing around 170 was 245 for 5 while doing speed work. Once I stopped speed work, I did 245 for 6 but it felt a lot less smooth than what it was when I was doing speed work. I think it has its place, but I don’t do it every week personally.
JM Blakely has entered the chat*
Excellent value in this presentation, simple and well explained opinion.
Liked the part where if this speed training the russians came up with was so great why are they not using it in their training now. Also I've experimented with it a lot and mostly it gave me a lot of elbow tendonitis. It never felt like it was contributing to my max.
Like music to my ears. I've been following Chris Beardsley's breakdown on the most current research in strength science for the last couple years. Not only is there no research in support of speed work increasing 1RM, but there's a lot of research that proves that speed work does not increase muscle hypertrophy, muscle protein synthesis, or 1RM. I'm at a popular powerlifting gym where the program is loosely based off Louie Simmons approach and they do speed work twice a week. On the squat, I like a little bit of speed work just to help me practice form, but on the bench it especially seems completely useless. Louie Simmons himself basically says he learned about this stuff in some ancient Russian training manual and Russians are strong so we should workout like them. Then he goes into his pseudo-scientific explanation of F=MA and it's all downhill from there. Thanks for speaking the truth! I wish these powerlifting programs would get over it and move on!
I think the speed work is just a volume progression. If you think about it, most intermediate/advanced programs have a volume day and an intensity day during the week. I think that’s all it really is. I was able to build a few national qualifiers in Olympic lifting by using that style. Currently I do a west side inspired training style, but I do a max day and a volume progression day with hypertrophy work and conditioning. I don’t know if it is optimal but I don’t care. I’m never going to compete again and I just want to do something I enjoy and make slow progress on while not getting injured and have some versatility for life.
Ever considered having a volume block and an intensity block?
People who use F=MA as an argument for 'speed work' don't understand physics, or calculus, and the difference between total, average and instantaneous quantities. The peak instantaneous force produced, and the rate of increase in force (impulse) by someone moving a weight quickly is indeed greater than that produced by someone moving the same weight slowly, but the total power output (work integrated over time) is the same. Impulse(rate of change of momentum), instantaneous power and peak force matter in weightlifting because quickly imparting momentum to the bar is a precondition to get under it and lift it. This is not necessary in power-lifting. In power-lifting the physical quantities that matter is the total power output, the momentum of the bar is generally unimportant.
Just pick up heavy objects and eat sandwiches. You aint rock-scientists or mens bikini contestants.
Which sandwiches do you recommend?
I love reading the comments from the nut huggers of Westside in the comments who can't take criticism 😭
I literally watched that Dave Tate and JM Blakely interview 5 minutes before I saw your video. It's really nice to kind of see your channel start growing because the information you give is so useful for unbiased people looking to learn and maybe experiment. I really enjoy that kind of stuff
Wow, this made so much sense.
We talk about olympic weightlifters being super-explosive (aka rate of force developement being very short). But look at them when they train to improve their maximum squat or max front squat. You'll see them work up to weights that will force them to perform slow reps; these are reps in good form, but some of these reps are heavy and very slow.
Don't be misguided by the squatting you see from Hookgrip, for these videos show the weightlifters squatting very close to a competition. Yes, their squatting is heavy and yes, their reps are usually crisp and at least moderately fast, but they are lifting something like 5 or 3 days out, so you won't see a superheavyweight burning himself out squatting with 350 kilos (unless he is some outlier and this helps him somehow to explode better a couple of days later). For example, you'll see Lasha doing fast squats with 250 or 265 on his back, just to maintain what strength her has. Training is super-individualized at the elite level.
What's more, an olympic weightlifter that has enough leg strength will simply maintain it and focus on improving his competitive lifts; he/she is after a bigger total in the snatch and Cl & Jerk, not after the biggest squat.
There's a level of truth to this but when Fred Hatfield talked about CAT he mentioned doing them so fast that 3 was the same time as one and you get more TUT
Westside has kind of changed up their speed work/dynamic work and its more of a volume bench day (5x5) still with percentages with straight weight or with accommodating resistance. Whats your take on that change?
Hey man, I am not as learned as you on the matter however, I think you are missing a key component of CAT (for this purpose)- Intent. If you intend to lift your max explosively it does help getting past sticking points easily (It won't "actually" move the weight explosively- But you'll recruit more motor units as opposed to not intending to move it explosively). The sub-max CAT is for training your CNS to utilize the motor units to move the weight explosively. This may not work for others, but for me personally it worked. I was able to progress faster in intensity using CAT than conventional Progressive Overload Training.
I am a SHW raw powerlifter with 30 years experience. I have totaled over 2000lbs multiple times. I am now a strength coach for the local high school football team. I agree with everything Bromley says here. I do use dynamic effort training in the programing for the football team but that is to get there 40 times down and explosive movement for lineman. My highest level of competition was between the years of 2011-2017. In that time I learned to use a modified Cube method. I thru out the dynamic effort work for most of the programing cycle. The 3 week wave for bench (reps, reps, max). Squat (acc. reps, bar reps, bar max). Dead (dynamic, acc. reps, bar max). I used Dynamic or speed day for inflammation control. I stagger the weeks into the Cube and used rep max instead of percentages. Yes I had to drop intensity some days but you can feel that out. Never do Singles in training. Max days are 2's and 3's.
Louis believed in speed work and based his beliefs off lots of Eastern bloc data. Huge sample size w some of the best testable stats/ data. The Westside guys swear by dynamic lifting more than just speed work. This includes band work, chains, pin press, rack pulls, variations of the core barbell lifts. Speed was only one part, and they believed in maximal and hypertrophy as well.
No hate. I think you’re right. I’ve been lifting for 7 years and started using a conjugate approach 3 years ago. I have concluded that for me, DE work has done nothing to increase my strength. I do think that it has improved my general fitness. I’ve looked at all the things people have said about why I might not be benefiting from DE work and nothing has changed. It is fun. But it is no longer a part of my training.
Having run conjugate for both raw and equipped competition, I noticed very little benefit to my raw lifts doing DE work, but my equipped lifts always seemed to progress better with consistent DE work. With Westside being a primarily equipped gym, I guess that makes sense. Louie also has his raw and equipped guys doing 6x6/8x8/10x10 waves in place of dynamic bench at times and he’s switched to mostly 5x5 with significantly heavier percentages in place of squats and deadlifts.
I think your selling some basics of strength training short by saying because the speed/ tempo does not correlate to the competitive lift it's not worthwhile. By this logic, resistance stuff like bands, sledwork, or slowing down the lift would also be "bad" .
any plans to compete in powerlifting in the future?
Yes, actually. This last prep for World's burnt me out on strongman events. I'm at the point where I need more static strength and not much else, so I'm going to heal up and focus on my squat, press, and dead. Hoping to prep for a PL meet around summer and transition back to Strongman Nationals and Worlds end of next year.
This is an excellent video. People moving 40% weight quickly is a result of building their bench up, it's not the reason their bench is going up. might as well go 20% or only the bar... more acceleration more better-er bro
Eddie Hall used speed work as an active de load in the lead up to his 500kg deadlift. The video i saw he said he couldnt progress more because his body couldnt recover from the heavy work required to oush that far all the time. What are your thoughts on that? Seems to me he used it not to “get stronger” but to recover so he could get stronger if that makes any sense
Real speed work CAT Training should start at 70% and progress weekly sets then intensity depending on the block . Josh bryant mastered this but this is done after a heavy top set . You dont seperate the days its stupid to waste a day on doing sets of super low percentages . People who claim to hold world record numbers that use this stuff had big numbers from linear ways to begin with . All westsides raw lifters got strong before going down to that gym . That gym didnt make an elite raw lifter from scratch using there system . They took well devolped lifters an groomed them into there system and when your eating at least 50 mg of dbol a day an stacking anabolics any damn thing works untill you hurt your self even pyramid schemes. Great work alex
My understanding is that speed work is not meant to increase strength by increasing muscular hypertrophy; instead, it trains your brain to recruit muscles, i.e. it trains the nervous system. So F=m*a thing should be interpreted as follows: if you keep the mass constant but "learn" to accelerate it more from workout to workout, it's an INDICATION that your nervous system is getting trained so that it can recruit more muscle mass quicker. That force is NOT the end in itself, i.e. you don't want to produce more force so that you can increase muscular hypertrophy. The training for hypertrophy is different, with higher reps and higher % of the 1RM.
So the dynamic effort is just a tool to train your brain to go from 0 to 100 faster.
This is my understanding anyway, so feel free to correct me.
This was the case for me to be honest and it did work well with bench progression but moreover I feel doing it with such a light weight (like 50%) is useless entirely but using accommodating resistance with heavy loads ( the 3-6 rep range) with 75-90% of your max can help with lockout strength and creating a new sticking point ( for me it was off the chest to now top portion) but I’ve only been training for a year now with a 230kg(507lbs) deadlift 125kg(275lbs) bench and 160kg(275lbs) squat currently 15 on a calorie deficit
Not sure about speed work but I squat better after a sprint session.
When I bench I do med ball throws between sets which imo I think is a better way to get in speed work than thrashing easy weights around
I would think olympic lifts would be much more optimal to dynamic training since the lift must be done with power to be executed where the main compound lifts don't need to be done quickly to be finished. More than that though power can only be trained so much and it is mostly determined by genetics.
_Phew_ Not a single BBM program mentioned. Glad I don't need to get all butt hurt today..
Good info. There is so much misinformation out there. I did a couple of videos on similar topics, but I don't really have the time to post long, information dense, videos. The general public and, sadly, large numbers of strength coaches, have no idea to properly tailor training programs for the needs of their athletes. I've seen some truly cringe worthy programming.
Love your videos as always. Keep it up brother!👌👍
Bromley when you said about linear periodization 8x8 to 6x6 ect would that be just on main lifts once aweek?
Great video. Never heard anyone explain this before but I've experienced this many times throughout my 18 years of lifting. I always absorbed the blame and assumed i was doing something wrong. Curious on your thoughts on max effort. It seems like it has its place but may see better strength increases with multple sets of 3s and 5s.
Can you do a video about inertia when lifting?
1:02 Matt Wenning never shuts up about it. hahaha
Haha! Yes he does! I use to watch Matt a lot more some years ago and I do think he has some good content and a knowledgeable guy but I also never bought into this speed work! One reason is because most elite lifters don't do it! Westside was around for a long time and some(Matt wenning, Dave Tate, Mark Bell) keep it going but most still don't do it. Also Matt suggests way to low of percentages for his speed work!
I'm binging this channel atm. What an amazing channel.
Thanks Alexander
how does this guy not have hundred of thousands of subscribers...?
People want 2 minute answers to questions that take a half hour to answer in detail.
@@otoyoto7153 its a fucking shame, that...
Great job explaining. Finally someone gets it. If the bar moves fast, it's too light therefore you are not training type 2b or 2x fibers. You are right. People do things but don't know why.
Look up the henneman principle
Matt Wenning disliked this :)
Speed work is only a small part of conjugate 17:44 when you combine it with max effort (heavy) and rep(bodybuilding) training it works.
How do you feel about speed work for a highland games athlete? I like to use it during the week leading up to a competition. I feel it primes me to move fast and be explosive come game time. Granted, I stick in the 70-85% range for 1-3 reps. Maybe, that's more compensatory acceleration training.
Speed work is vital for explosive athletes, but it should mirror the types of movements you do in competition. For violent triple extension power, I think speed squats and deads fall short. If you're going to be fast in HG, you need your ankles involved! You're better off prioritizing a variety of jumping/plyometric exercises in addition to the heavier weight lifting days.
@@AlexanderBromley thanks for the reply. I should have mentioned, I also do hang cleans and push press and, of course, throws with the competition implements in season and puds during the off season. Great video by the way. I always wondered if speed work would be beneficial to me. This has shed a lot of light on the subject. Much appreciated.
The real purpose of max effort training is to use "low stakes" analogs for competition lifts that don't elicit high psychological stress, that you are not "practiced enough" at to really reach 100% max, and that are less stressful on the system and joints than competition lifts are for the same degree of difficulty. If you do a 2-board press with a flat back and a somewhat closer grip than usual, and you haven't used that in 4 months, you may have a target goal, but there is no where near the mental and physical stress as maxing out on a competition bench press. Point is, MAX EFFORT training works because you CAN"T push the analog lift as hard as a competition lift, and you chose exercises that stress the joints less by using exercises with disadvantageous mechanics like close grips, removing the stretch reflex, taking out the lats or leg drive etc. Max effort is a way to reduce intensity and stress in a self regulated manner.
1) Simmons' prescription for at least the last 13 years (for speed squats) had been 50-60% max in bar weight plus about 25% in mean (midpoint) band tension which would actually would put speed squat load in the range of 70-80% to 80-90% of 1 rep max load as you rise through the range of motion. That would put your load right off the box at 70-80% 1RM for 10 x 2 which is a pretty good strength prescription.
2) He was training people who used suits which reduced the load in the hole to practically zero, so obviously speed in the first 2-3 inches could improve the max weight lifted. I don't know if "speed" squats were best for me, but definitely keeping the squat in the 70-80% max range was a lot more productive than trying to push 85%+
Simmons described speed bench work for most of the last 15 years as "ballistic triceps training." Is it the best way to produce high force contraction in the triceps? Probably not, but it was a "catch and rebound" for the last decade or so. I never benefitted from speed bench work which he always prescribed lighter, even down to 45-55%. I DID benefit from using bands and double bands on fairly heavy bench presses. Single bands on paused benches and double bands for touch and go. I would still work up to a 2-6 rep max with bands or double bands on the bar.
dammit... every time I think about doing a Conjugate program, I see your videos like this, and I can't argue with anything you say. You have a huge fan in me, and you constantly educate me on things I thought I had a good understanding on. Thank you!
I definitely see some value in speed work! I’m just a guy who works a 9-5 and wants to be faster and more explosive. I like his opinion on the subject and definitely agree to a point. Brian Alsruhe likes to teach it as, “you’re body is going to revert back to its training in an emergency situation. If you move a weight using 65% of your actual power in training, you’re only gonna get 65% of the power when you need it. If you move light weight like it’s heavy at maximum speed, your body will grow accustomed to move at 100% when needed! That will carry over to when you’re lifting heavier and heavier weight.” Paraphrasing here.
But check out Brian Alsruhe Conjugate method. His template is legit. I’ve been using it for the past 2 months and I feel stronger than ever.
Also, he likes to preach to never stop doing explosive body weight training!
@@edschobs5204 I love Brian's stuff! I have tried his program, and it burned me out. But that's mostly due to his giant sets and 90 sec rest times. I was getting into great shape, but my static strength went down. I'm a firm believer in "if it works for you, keep at it." And it clearly works for him, and you, so keep it up! This was my thought process a year ago, and I've slightly changed, but I still know conjugate doesn't work for me. Volume is better for me. I kinda mix martins's peaking program (when trying to peak for any reason), and joey szatsmary's programming philosophy into a program. and it works wonders
@@smith.jacob701 I’m a big fan of Joey Szatzmary too. Maybe it’s because 13 of my 14 years lifting. I never really chased strength, just hypertrophy. So, I’ve only been at the powerlifting game for about a year now. Probably why I’m still seeing gains in strength consistently. But definitely to each their own. I just love the giant sets with short rest times. I think I’m gonna try some Joey Szatsmary stuff starting this fall. See how that goes.
I just wish I could train with you.
is speed work more optional for people who train conjugate but don’t do it for the powerlifting aspect? more like ... using the conjugate method for football players , etc etc? i used to train conjugate and i l have been lifting for less than 2 years and i used conjugate for about less than a year (8 months ish) but stopped last June because i realized ... is using fucking 50% of my fucking squat (150-160?!) really making me a STRONGER fucking squatter ?!
Dave Tate also says that DE is not much benefit to an already explosive lifter and he recommends that explosive lifters use it about once a month to maintain. I happen to be explosive and I found that the DE work helped me speed up my descent and rebound in the squat. Also when combined with bands or chains it helps provide overload for sumo lockouts but does nothing for conventional since you would be overloading the harder part of the movement. And It did nothing for my bench.
Another enjoyable video thank you
I think speedwork us ok for the bench. It's practice and a good way to train light and get neuromuscular stimuli. It changes it up and I find it fun.
Speed work won't work well for powerlifting but for power training, for speed-strength, which has its applications in sports, it can be more applicable than just max effort lifting.
I do agree that maybe speed work won't have much carry over to powerlifting; how you lift in a speed bench isnt as fast as you lift in a 1RM in a meet, but perhaps that isnt the purpose of it.
10:02 "You cannot move lighter percentages to get maximal force production." That's what the bands are for at least to make the weight heavier without sacrificing speed. You might be able to generate force better with 80% but at the cost of sacrificing speed, whereas if you can generate force with 80% AT THE TOP, it may be different from straight weight but the speed is still there.
Like Conjugate, speed work requires a strong foundation of technique, stability and coordination before jumping into it. It requires having a foundation of getting technique dialed in with the foundational lifts which avoid the bad habits you believe speed work can bring. And you can bet it also requires a lot of responsibility in following it.
Regular speed work does not work for beginners, but I don't know, Louie advises the 3-week split for anyone regardless if "his squat is 100 lbs or 1000 lbs." Make of that of what you will. I personally get more out of plyo Push-ups than benching with 50% of my max.
And also, what you just said the goal of CAT is, I believe that's also the goal of speed work to begin with: learning to lift with intent (except the high rep thingy). That's why I love it.
Speed work with the big three for other sports is likely junk volume. If you want improve your speed in sport then use olympic lifts, plyometrics and speed work in sport specific training.
@@sheadoherty7434 Work with 30-40% especially when done at the right velocities ain't bad either
I clicked on the video wondering why he doesnt like it, and learned it`s great for my sport . Thanks Bromley.
Speed work always felt like a mid-week deload and a waste of a day if not in accumulation phase. Is why Dave Tate doesn't program deloads anyway, since he always incorporates speed work. Whole concept is gimmicky, especially for weak people. Nice video to complement JM Blakely.
Anyone who's been to a meet has seen maximal lifts performed grindy + explosively; Grinders need to learn to be more explosive, if you are already an explosive lifter you probably don't need speed work.
What if dynamic effort is actually training muscle recruitment at high speed?
I find it works quite well doing 3x3x60% then immediately into 1×3x90% which I remember louie saying he did at some point.
You can learn to perform a movement close to perfectly at 1m/s.
I think most of the volume on dynamic effort day comes from the specific assistance work which is done with relatively high rep sets correct?
Comments from a track and field coach lol.
I saw a clip of that podcast with Tate and JM. Every time I listen to Dave Tate he's trying to sell me on westside, he just wont directly call it that. To the current generation of powerlifters, Westside is kind of a joke.
How about speed work for the axle bar clean, as you need to be able to rapidly generate force, in order to get the bar to the sternum, so at the moment I am practicing lifting a heavy axle as fast as I can that is sub max l, in order to practice generating max speed, and what that feels like.
I saw a nod to Dr Squat!
6:30 but the point of speed work is to increase fast force output which would allow you to simply keep the slow speed on a max but go up in weight?
Why would people use speed for strength 😅😂? It sounds like an oxymoron
If given any % of a max and you lift it at a certain speed then you train to move it faster and are able to you are therefor stronger?, if we assume technique does not break down at a higher percent this will carry over no? Or is it that you may not be able to generate that greater force for longer times that stop its carrying over to higher percents (grinding)
Recently started learning more about the strength speed continuum. Immediate question marks hit my mind when I thought back to the speed work concept for powerlifting because it simply makes no sense how improving strength-speed increases your ceiling for maximal strength. It sounds like it makes sense ON PAPER. But in practicality, I see no benefit outside of accruing volume. But as you had eluded to, specificity is king here and you should probably just focus on the motor patterns under similar conditions to what you’ll be competing with.
Awesome
Awsome vid mate!!
Alexander Bromley vs Matt Wenning
F I G H T!
I mean typically for me I can move weights faster if they are light in relation to my one rep max. I think that applies to anyone. If your max is 325 like me on bench well yea your going to throw 205 up real fast because it’s light to you. I don’t care how much speed work you do your not going to max out at the same speed. Now maybe it’s good for athletes or something but idk about power lifting. I never did speed training and never felt slow or not explosive when I wrestled or did BJJ. I never even did Olympic lifts. Just ran for endurance lifted with a main focus on bench, squat, and deadlift. That is anecdotal though
AT 17:30 He said it the best 99%er the is not westside and training Westside is just that not limited to FMA
So, what I would ask is if dynamic effort is not effective then how do Westside get such good results if half of of their training is ineffective?
That's a good question. First, I would say speed work doesn't make up half their training (speed work doesn't take long to get through). So many people think that the staple of Westside/Conjugate is ME and DE; in reality, the ME and RE (bodybuilding accessory work) makes up the majority of their time in the gym and, I would argue, most of their results. Even in Westside they will scrap the speed work for periods of time to do more volume/rep work. They would never scrap the ME work or the RE work. If you have heavy weights, lots of reps/volume, a motivated training crew, a desire to work through pain, injury, and personal struggles, and all of the free drugs you can handle, you are going to grow (if you can stay in one piece).
@@AlexanderBromley I have never done speed work or any conjugate training. I have heard a few people saying its not useful for beginners and others saying it's simply not good. It just seems like Louie Simmons would have cut it out long ago if it didn't provide a measurable result. He comes across as very numerical, everything being measured and tested. Who knows, maybe he is wrong...
question: i do calisthenics, and i can do pull ups with a lot of weights ( 45kg for 4 reps) but my unweighted pull ups aren't explosive enough. If i train specifically with unweighted explosive pull ups, wouldn't i be improved in this area?
Do explosive push ups with 50% of ur one rep max
I thought the point of speed work was to use as a "rest" day?
Basically, if you want to look like an athlete then train like an athlete.
thats a very good point,,, im contemplating on lowering my speed work in my armwrestling training now...
DE method is good for power, not so good for absolute strength
None of this is popular. You are taking things that were popular 10 years ago and bashing them as if they are relevant today. Who the Fuck is doing dynamic effort Westside work and raw? Poll your audience. No one is doing this. Your Westside bashing is opportunistic at best.
If something was a bad idea in 1990, it's a bad idea today. You're a bit out of touch.. This video got 100 comments in a day. My only other Westside video is at 57k because it got shared into the ground.
Fred Hatfield sorted all this out 35 years ago
I know you said that you only disagree with speed work for powerlifters. But even for a boxer for instance, I'd assume they are better off developing speed by practicing throwing their hands as fast as possible, rather than trying to bench press as fast as possible.
Agreed. I wouldn't prescribe Westside style speedwork for an athlete either.
Great video. I think perhaps I have been wasting my time.
I see it like this: if westside does it, I shouldn't do it.
You should have far more subs than you do. I have literally just found your channel which seems totally unfair to you as practically all I watch on RUclips is strength related content. RUclips algorithm can be so unfair. You should have been on my (and probably lots of other people's) radar far sooner.
I appreciate that! Using all this down time to crank out content, planning on getting there sooner rather than later.
This is truly quality content, utterly blown away by how fine and concise this presentation is, the kind of video that helps redeem the platform for online content.
Nice content. One thing-you mentioned jm blakeley “agrees” with you...you could’ve stated that you agree with him. Nothing negative, just thought I give you feedback ✌️
What are your thoughts on creating fatigue with lighter weights before hitting the heaviest weights for the day? Sheiko seems to like this, and he has his lifters doing a lot of sets working up to the top weight for the day. I can imagine this would allow one to reap some great benefits once we peak and/or deload to allow some of that fatigue to go away and the real strength to come forward.
I think that can be a very valuable approach if done in a very specific way. Sheiko's top sets build familiarity with higher percentages, but they are pretty far away from max effort, so the fatigue before hand won't impact the session too much. Also, the sets used before hand aren't brutal; they contribute to the total tonnage and add some element of fatigue, but aren't substantial enough to blow your wad. I'm experimenting right now with a sort of 'inverted conjugate' (still working out the name lol) where the main lift is kept the same and progressed linearly while the secondary lift is done for max effort and rotated every week. Same idea of hitting the heavy stuff later on, but since it's not the main movement and just serves as nervous system stimulation, it doesn't matter if you are a bit fatigued. Hoping it works out as a viable peak strategy.
Going to need to listen to this a couple of times. I need to see if I can make this work with Scottish Athletic events.