There's plenty of places that have discussions like this, but this is not a group of people who understand racism at all. The title alone shows how clueless they are.
@@riverc.820 So you can only have a discussion on racism unless you've what? experienced it? perpetuated it? read a lot of books about it? On a side note, to say that none of the guests on the stage have experienced racism is pretty ironic. Somehow I think the irony of your comment will be lost on you.
What a civil and helpful dialogue between men who disagree - they were doing something right in the 90's. Also, it's perfectly clear to me that Dinesh D'Souza's book would have been far superior in it's reach, impact, and reception had he conferred with Glenn Loury when he was in the stages of writing the book. Always impressed by Glenn's incisive, intelligent, and fair analysis of any issue, controversy, or topic he is called to opine on. It's like watching a wise sage go to work and educate the masses. Impressive! As someone already mentioned, would love to hear these two rehash this same conversation today in 2024.
Well, given the time between then and now, Prof. Loury seems downright prophetic. "This is a problem with the United States" - it takes little more than looking at the opioid epidemic and the problems endemic to poor rural areas to show he was absolutely right there, and people who thought this was specifically a Black issue were way off the mark.
The problems in the black community are because of the welfare state which is directly to blame for the 70% single parent household. Fatherlessness is a serious problem.
How about men having kids with multiple women as a contributor too? In such scenarios a father can't be in the home of each of his children's mothers. How about poor choices on women's part? I've grew up in poor communities. Most on welfare there found it embarrassing. Nevertheless the welfare state made it difficult to transition from welfare. Lastly, some men would be bums, even if the welfare state didn't exist.
Interesting observation from watching this in 2022: the liberals on the panel at various points agreed with the conservatives on certain points on the cultural dysfunction in the black community. To cede any points as valid to the other side of the political spectrum would not be tolerated in 2022. Towards the end when the liberals were clearly upset and the debate turned contentious the liberals restrained themselves from calling Dinesh a racist. If this interview had happened in 2022 Dinesh would’ve been denounced as a bigot within the first 60 seconds. We’ve truly degenerated as a country since the mid-90s.
Mr. Cromartie nails it: there are not political solutions to every problem-it just invites tribalism. He acknowledges there are racists in every society but also notes the cultural difficulties plaguing black americans. Having been part of the bureaucracy at one point in my life, I find that the political solutions to address poverty in ciites only serve to create another plantation for black americans & that is where I see present day racism. It's trading a measly stipend to keep them afloat (barely) on the public dole in which case the body politic expects a vote in return. The problem is there are no educational or trade school ladders to arise out of that. Knowledge is looked as bad. In turn the welfare system facilitates more bad behaviors because it excuses persons on drugs or who are having 8 kids they cannot support w/ all the dads in jail. Nobody comes down hard on this because the bureaucrats are stroked to feel pity. My question is why doesn't the welfare dept. actually do some guidance counseling, assessing educational needs, social work needs, certainly nutrition etc. It's because the welfare dept is dependent on poverty for their own paycheck. That's one way of tackling the problem-you apply for assistance, we begin to assess educational needs & line up schooling or trade school or whatever. If there are issues of domestic violence, drug marketing, we get the social workers in their for mandatory family counseling. The goal is to track these people & get them to a higher rung on the ladder. Now with blacks themselves they must come to realize that the system has not been working for 60 years. The strength rests in the black church & for a group of people that are so strong in their religion they must begin to challenge themselves.
Incredible summation. LBJ's welfare programs were doomed to fail and many say they were designed with that purpose. Your laid out plan is a working one and must be promoted to the public and a sit down with every legislator. I love how you concluded with the church. My fear though is that segments of society have fallen so far from grace, can morality be taught to be longed for? With so many vices, how can a light be put on the beauty in the pursuit of happiness and in the commitment to family? With the magnitude of violence, drugs and licentiousness, it feels overwhelming and almost hopeless, but not quite.
@@swfarms63 Very hard to get lawmakers attention. One rarely gets more than 3 minutes w/ a lawmaker. They think they have all the ideas & really it's about getting elected. Our nation has moved toward learned helplessness. A bragging right would be if we actually moved some people off to decent work, got them to have some decent schooling, facilitated more preventative health behaviors. The overall bill will go down in the long run.
So the heavy set Boston Univ. professor agrees with much of what Dinesh says in his book about black culture, he just doesn't like the manner in which Dinseh says it.
It's not so much the HE "dislikes" it as it is he thinks it's unnecessarily inflammatory, and I'm inferring he thinks that'll detract from or thwart interest in the point.
@ What examples can you give to illustrate Dinesh being provocation? (at least on a large or semi-large scale). He's one of the most calm and patient speaker on the subject.
@@benwincelberg9684 - Confirmed, and Glenn used the word "inflammatory" to describe how Dinesh presented his opinions in the book. If I remember correctly, he described Dinesh as a clown and that everyone knew that of him back to his days at Dartmouth. It would be good to have them discuss/debate for at least an hour on a podcast, maybe on both of theirs, respectively.
Sensitivity training is unheard of when I was in the military. We recruits were told we were all equally worthless no matter what stripe- per our drill sergeant. LOL!
*Sure...as if in our Military there isn't that 1 group that is Privileged just because of who there Father's are and what Position in our Military do they hold. Try to convince me that there aren't groups like that in the Military, and then try to convince me that the Majority in those groups aren't White...try to convince me, because you might not be able to convince yourself first.*
What happened to this thoughtful and rational Dinesh? He’s become a far-right lunatic, but that’s what happens when you adopt extreme ideology. You keep taking steps further and further until you’re completely removed from objective reality.
A Man who isn't even from the African American Community who lives Black Culture and has lived Black History...ohhh and also he's not an African American either.
The word "Racist" is as important now as when a German academicians came up with the idiotic and tragic Aryan Semitic Race Theory (ASRT) and other German academicians came up with an equally idiotic, potentially tragic, but opposite "Critical" Race Theory (CRT). Proof that it's important to have a real conversation? Hmm... no one points out that Dinesh is a dark-skin man? No one mentions thatt more and more dark-skin people will be in the US (including Blacks from other countries who are eager to live in this racist country? No one mentions the MANY and growing cross-races friendships, marriages, cultural and business connections?
I heard Glenn on his podcast refer to this video with Dinesh and how the latter's book was one that led him to split from the Right back in the 90's. Now...I'm still trying to figure out if it's because Dinesh's points were solid and bold, but Glenn was just jealous of the book?? Or that he didn't like an "outsider" ( immigrant " ) making the points as if it was verboten to do so? Does Glenn still consider Dinesh insincere and a bombthrower only out for a buck? Both are great to hear and listen to ( including Dinesh's debates against Christopher Hitchens ) and I'm hoping neither of them are too caught up in petty jealousy nor using their audience only to lie and make a living.
@@machtnichtsseimann I hear exactly what you are saying. I stopped listening to Glenn a while ago, so I'm not too knowledgeable about his stances currently. But I am familiar with Dinesh and in my opinion Dinesh is the most calm and rationale speaker on the "right" that we have. It's one of the reasons I enjoy watching him debate and listening to his ideas. He also puts out some good quality documentaries and his books are well written. I definitely don't see Dinesh doing what he does just to rile up his base or just to make a living, imho.
@@coryCuc - Speaking of documentaries, he's been given the royal shaft which a truly diverse Hollywood shouldn't do, but we know how that goes. He also has stepped foot on college campuses and taken hard questions in that format. Respect to him doing all of the above, especially an immigrant living the Dream. Regarding Glenn's critique of the book ( then and now ), one hopes he isn't doing it just for show himself, and so far the jury is out on if Dinesh is "clowning" the public. People like you and me give him still the benefit of the doubt. He is a solid asset for the Right and has backbone in walking straight towards debates where many fear to tread. ( He's not as provocative as Ann Coulter, but they both agree that the Right needs to get better at standing up against the Left and back it up in their careers. )
Dinesh is a demagogue, and has been debunked well by many. He serves his Right-wing Christian ideology, and will leave out a lot of facts, and contexts that undermine his points.
@Milk Man AEI is not about solutions. It's about trying to decorate their predetermined agenda as a product of intellectual discussions. In reality the people at these think tanks are selected because they're NOT after truth
These guys use a lot of five dollar words when I think it's important to speak plainly if we want to have earnest discussions on race in the U.S. Too many people misunderstand the word 'racism' itself. They think the word means only when a group acts violently towards another because of a difference in race or in general that 'racism' means very obvious behaviors of hate or disrespect based upon race. However, racism can be and is still alive even when 'things seem to be going ok between races.' Racism in the U.S. never truly disappears. The subtleties of racism are so a part of American culture and history that it permeates us and we don't even realize it's there, because it has always been.
> The subtleties of racism are so a part of American culture and history that it permeates us and we don't even realize it's there, because it has always been. That's just sensationalism. What else could you mean by "permeate" that doesn't rely on a lack of consciousness? And you haven't even made an attempt at describing what racism is. Instead, you romanticize it, whatever "it" is, leaving everything up to the imagination.
@@quinson93 I'm sure you're perfectly able to look up Webster's definition so I don't need to do that work for you. Romanticizing racism? Haha, well that's interesting, there's nothing about racism I'd want to romanticize at all. I'll give you just one example of the subtle 'differences'. When people talk about the addiction to crack cocaine in the Black communities for example, they call it for what it is, an addiction to a drug. However, now that we're talking about addiction to opioids, that is called an 'epidemic' as if it's a disease like a virus that strikes at all manner of innocent victims. You know why those two addictions are described differently? Because crack addiction as pertains to Black people is just seen as their failure to take responsibility for their own actions, because they don't want to work but rather want to take advantage of the welfare system then blow the free money on drugs. However, because many White people are abusing prescription pain killers and because they have all the good personal qualities then if they fall prey to the addiction it MUST be because they can't help it OR because someone else is victimizing them. The truth is though that there are a bunch of White people getting prescribed drugs they don't need because they want them, their children raid their medicine cabinets to get it and steal from their families and neighbors to get it and do all manner of wrong to satisfy their desire for it. Another example is in crime as Black people are blamed for 3/4 of the crime in America yet only make up less than 16% of the population. When someone uses the term 'urban population' what do you envision? Poor White people, on welfare, abusing alcohol, abusing their kids, stealing from their neighbors next door? No, you automatically envision Black people... It's a narrative that started in earnest around the Reconstruction. You can play dumb if you like, doesn't work though. Enjoy your voluntary ignorance and have a nice night. Happy Holidays as well.
@@Jazzman-bj9fq Romanticizing: "deal with or describe in an idealized or unrealistic fashion." Yes, racism exists, I watched the video too. No, it's not magic, you can think it through and act on your own accord. Again, sensationalism. Racism isn't intrinsic.
So Dinesh is right, but peoples feelings got hurt. My question to them is are you offended when X group of people are killing each other in record numbers?
I'd love for Glenn and Dinesh to talk today.
Why can’t we have civil discussion on shows like these in 2019?!
Because Twitter and Rage-Bait didn't exist in the 90s.
because equality is not reality
There's plenty of places that have discussions like this, but this is not a group of people who understand racism at all. The title alone shows how clueless they are.
@@riverc.820 So you can only have a discussion on racism unless you've what? experienced it? perpetuated it? read a lot of books about it? On a side note, to say that none of the guests on the stage have experienced racism is pretty ironic. Somehow I think the irony of your comment will be lost on you.
@@coryCuc I think you’re just an idiot and you can’t see it yet.
What a civil and helpful dialogue between men who disagree - they were doing something right in the 90's. Also, it's perfectly clear to me that Dinesh D'Souza's book would have been far superior in it's reach, impact, and reception had he conferred with Glenn Loury when he was in the stages of writing the book. Always impressed by Glenn's incisive, intelligent, and fair analysis of any issue, controversy, or topic he is called to opine on. It's like watching a wise sage go to work and educate the masses. Impressive! As someone already mentioned, would love to hear these two rehash this same conversation today in 2024.
Well, given the time between then and now, Prof. Loury seems downright prophetic. "This is a problem with the United States" - it takes little more than looking at the opioid epidemic and the problems endemic to poor rural areas to show he was absolutely right there, and people who thought this was specifically a Black issue were way off the mark.
The problems in the black community are because of the welfare state which is directly to blame for the 70% single parent household. Fatherlessness is a serious problem.
White Supremacist where I'd this "Black Community" located?
How about men having kids with multiple women as a contributor too? In such scenarios a father can't be in the home of each of his children's mothers. How about poor choices on women's part? I've grew up in poor communities. Most on welfare there found it embarrassing. Nevertheless the welfare state made it difficult to transition from welfare. Lastly, some men would be bums, even if the welfare state didn't exist.
The problem is the belief that the problem is one social behavior.
I’m with Glenn Loury on this. The casual smugness of non black new American writing about blackness is too much.
@@richardbicker640 it’s truthful.
@@richardbicker640 also, don’t pretend you care about racism, because we both know you don’t.
2021 Loury would disagree with himself back then
black people voted for Obama coz he is black. Explains a lot.
blackness??
Interesting observation from watching this in 2022: the liberals on the panel at various points agreed with the conservatives on certain points on the cultural dysfunction in the black community. To cede any points as valid to the other side of the political spectrum would not be tolerated in 2022.
Towards the end when the liberals were clearly upset and the debate turned contentious the liberals restrained themselves from calling Dinesh a racist. If this interview had happened in 2022 Dinesh would’ve been denounced as a bigot within the first 60 seconds. We’ve truly degenerated as a country since the mid-90s.
Mr. Cromartie nails it: there are not political solutions to every problem-it just invites tribalism. He acknowledges there are racists in every society but also notes the cultural difficulties plaguing black americans. Having been part of the bureaucracy at one point in my life, I find that the political solutions to address poverty in ciites only serve to create another plantation for black americans & that is where I see present day racism. It's trading a measly stipend to keep them afloat (barely) on the public dole in which case the body politic expects a vote in return. The problem is there are no educational or trade school ladders to arise out of that. Knowledge is looked as bad. In turn the welfare system facilitates more bad behaviors because it excuses persons on drugs or who are having 8 kids they cannot support w/ all the dads in jail. Nobody comes down hard on this because the bureaucrats are stroked to feel pity. My question is why doesn't the welfare dept. actually do some guidance counseling, assessing educational needs, social work needs, certainly nutrition etc. It's because the welfare dept is dependent on poverty for their own paycheck. That's one way of tackling the problem-you apply for assistance, we begin to assess educational needs & line up schooling or trade school or whatever. If there are issues of domestic violence, drug marketing, we get the social workers in their for mandatory family counseling. The goal is to track these people & get them to a higher rung on the ladder. Now with blacks themselves they must come to realize that the system has not been working for 60 years. The strength rests in the black church & for a group of people that are so strong in their religion they must begin to challenge themselves.
Incredible summation. LBJ's welfare programs were doomed to fail and many say they were designed with that purpose. Your laid out plan is a working one and must be promoted to the public and a sit down with every legislator. I love how you concluded with the church. My fear though is that segments of society have fallen so far from grace, can morality be taught to be longed for? With so many vices, how can a light be put on the beauty in the pursuit of happiness and in the commitment to family? With the magnitude of violence, drugs and licentiousness, it feels overwhelming and almost hopeless, but not quite.
@@swfarms63 Very hard to get lawmakers attention. One rarely gets more than 3 minutes w/ a lawmaker. They think they have all the ideas & really it's about getting elected. Our nation has moved toward learned helplessness. A bragging right would be if we actually moved some people off to decent work, got them to have some decent schooling, facilitated more preventative health behaviors. The overall bill will go down in the long run.
So the heavy set Boston Univ. professor agrees with much of what Dinesh says in his book about black culture, he just doesn't like the manner in which Dinseh says it.
It's not so much the HE "dislikes" it as it is he thinks it's unnecessarily inflammatory, and I'm inferring he thinks that'll detract from or thwart interest in the point.
@ What examples can you give to illustrate Dinesh being provocation? (at least on a large or semi-large scale). He's one of the most calm and patient speaker on the subject.
Agreed.
Glenn spoke about this very recently on his podcast with Besser
@@benwincelberg9684 - Confirmed, and Glenn used the word "inflammatory" to describe how Dinesh presented his opinions in the book. If I remember correctly, he described Dinesh as a clown and that everyone knew that of him back to his days at Dartmouth. It would be good to have them discuss/debate for at least an hour on a podcast, maybe on both of theirs, respectively.
Dinesh is nothing but a troll
Sensitivity training is unheard of when I was in the military. We recruits were told we were all equally worthless no matter what stripe- per our drill sergeant. LOL!
*Sure...as if in our Military there isn't that 1 group that is Privileged just because of who there Father's are and what Position in our Military do they hold. Try to convince me that there aren't groups like that in the Military, and then try to convince me that the Majority in those groups aren't White...try to convince me, because you might not be able to convince yourself first.*
glenn today would agree w dinesh far more than then.
An excellent and civilized discussion. Cromartie makes a lot of sense and does not get enough talk time.
Typical
Glenn's commentary and criticism was the best and most helpful, in my opinion.
Wasn't that dinesh d'souza guy in jail? He talks about black
For something that is only a misdemeanor
he was in jail because he sold meth and killed his girlfriend.
@@mejestic124 I knew he was dirty and a hypocrite
pardoned. also mlk was convicted tooo sooooo
@@mejestic124 Wrong
What happened to this thoughtful and rational Dinesh? He’s become a far-right lunatic, but that’s what happens when you adopt extreme ideology. You keep taking steps further and further until you’re completely removed from objective reality.
What makes you think him a right wing lunatic? He talks the same way now as he did then.
maybe you go far-left.
A Man who isn't even from the African American Community who lives Black Culture and has lived Black History...ohhh and also he's not an African American either.
The word "Racist" is as important now as when a German academicians came up with the idiotic and tragic Aryan Semitic Race Theory (ASRT) and other German academicians came up with an equally idiotic, potentially tragic, but opposite "Critical" Race Theory (CRT). Proof that it's important to have a real conversation? Hmm... no one points out that Dinesh is a dark-skin man? No one mentions thatt more and more dark-skin people will be in the US (including Blacks from other countries who are eager to live in this racist country? No one mentions the MANY and growing cross-races friendships, marriages, cultural and business connections?
Also not said out loud is that millions of non whites illegally entering and remaining in the socalled inherent racist US.
So what I heard was that Dinesh said meanie words. Got it.
I heard Glenn on his podcast refer to this video with Dinesh and how the latter's book was one that led him to split from the Right back in the 90's. Now...I'm still trying to figure out if it's because Dinesh's points were solid and bold, but Glenn was just jealous of the book?? Or that he didn't like an "outsider" ( immigrant " ) making the points as if it was verboten to do so? Does Glenn still consider Dinesh insincere and a bombthrower only out for a buck? Both are great to hear and listen to ( including Dinesh's debates against Christopher Hitchens ) and I'm hoping neither of them are too caught up in petty jealousy nor using their audience only to lie and make a living.
@@machtnichtsseimann I hear exactly what you are saying. I stopped listening to Glenn a while ago, so I'm not too knowledgeable about his stances currently. But I am familiar with Dinesh and in my opinion Dinesh is the most calm and rationale speaker on the "right" that we have. It's one of the reasons I enjoy watching him debate and listening to his ideas. He also puts out some good quality documentaries and his books are well written. I definitely don't see Dinesh doing what he does just to rile up his base or just to make a living, imho.
@@coryCuc - Speaking of documentaries, he's been given the royal shaft which a truly diverse Hollywood shouldn't do, but we know how that goes. He also has stepped foot on college campuses and taken hard questions in that format. Respect to him doing all of the above, especially an immigrant living the Dream. Regarding Glenn's critique of the book ( then and now ), one hopes he isn't doing it just for show himself, and so far the jury is out on if Dinesh is "clowning" the public. People like you and me give him still the benefit of the doubt. He is a solid asset for the Right and has backbone in walking straight towards debates where many fear to tread. ( He's not as provocative as Ann Coulter, but they both agree that the Right needs to get better at standing up against the Left and back it up in their careers. )
@@machtnichtsseimann I couldn't have said it better.
Dinesh is a demagogue, and has been debunked well by many. He serves his Right-wing Christian ideology, and will leave out a lot of facts, and contexts that undermine his points.
We all know Dinesh has no idea what he is talking about
Seems like everyone agrees with what he's talking about. They just think it's too controversial for whites or indians to talk about.
Orr...he knows exactly what hes talking about, and backs it up. He just doesnt extend any apologies to US Blacks....why should he?
@Milk Man AEI is not about solutions. It's about trying to decorate their predetermined agenda as a product of intellectual discussions. In reality the people at these think tanks are selected because they're NOT after truth
@@vindictii Dinesh can say what he wants. He's just not exactly correct in his opinion of the past.
You must think Dinesh is black since you think he doesn’t know what he is talking about .. Dinesh is not black
These guys use a lot of five dollar words when I think it's important to speak plainly if we want to have earnest discussions on race in the U.S. Too many people misunderstand the word 'racism' itself. They think the word means only when a group acts violently towards another because of a difference in race or in general that 'racism' means very obvious behaviors of hate or disrespect based upon race. However, racism can be and is still alive even when 'things seem to be going ok between races.' Racism in the U.S. never truly disappears. The subtleties of racism are so a part of American culture and history that it permeates us and we don't even realize it's there, because it has always been.
> The subtleties of racism are so a part of American culture and history that it permeates us and we don't even realize it's there, because it has always been.
That's just sensationalism. What else could you mean by "permeate" that doesn't rely on a lack of consciousness? And you haven't even made an attempt at describing what racism is. Instead, you romanticize it, whatever "it" is, leaving everything up to the imagination.
@@quinson93 I'm sure you're perfectly able to look up Webster's definition so I don't need to do that work for you. Romanticizing racism? Haha, well that's interesting, there's nothing about racism I'd want to romanticize at all. I'll give you just one example of the subtle 'differences'. When people talk about the addiction to crack cocaine in the Black communities for example, they call it for what it is, an addiction to a drug. However, now that we're talking about addiction to opioids, that is called an 'epidemic' as if it's a disease like a virus that strikes at all manner of innocent victims. You know why those two addictions are described differently? Because crack addiction as pertains to Black people is just seen as their failure to take responsibility for their own actions, because they don't want to work but rather want to take advantage of the welfare system then blow the free money on drugs. However, because many White people are abusing prescription pain killers and because they have all the good personal qualities then if they fall prey to the addiction it MUST be because they can't help it OR because someone else is victimizing them. The truth is though that there are a bunch of White people getting prescribed drugs they don't need because they want them, their children raid their medicine cabinets to get it and steal from their families and neighbors to get it and do all manner of wrong to satisfy their desire for it. Another example is in crime as Black people are blamed for 3/4 of the crime in America yet only make up less than 16% of the population. When someone uses the term 'urban population' what do you envision? Poor White people, on welfare, abusing alcohol, abusing their kids, stealing from their neighbors next door? No, you automatically envision Black people... It's a narrative that started in earnest around the Reconstruction. You can play dumb if you like, doesn't work though. Enjoy your voluntary ignorance and have a nice night. Happy Holidays as well.
@@Jazzman-bj9fq Romanticizing: "deal with or describe in an idealized or unrealistic fashion." Yes, racism exists, I watched the video too. No, it's not magic, you can think it through and act on your own accord. Again, sensationalism. Racism isn't intrinsic.
I think you are confusing racism with tribalism.
Their word choice was fine. Calm down.
So Dinesh is right, but peoples feelings got hurt.
My question to them is are you offended when X group of people are killing each other in record numbers?
If x group =. White, then no 💁
@@Mr._Moderate ? what logic are applying if their is any?
it is racist on some points
LOL... The last group of people & organization that we need to hear from on this issue. Even the title shows how clueless they are....