Why Don't High Speed 1 and High Speed 2 Connect?
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- Опубликовано: 6 фев 2024
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Direct high speed from Edinburgh to Paris should have been the goal
That was the whole point of the high speed network when it was first planned.
Just imagine a network that properly built out connections to the major northern and scottish cities, a fully realised HS2 and HS3 that creates a loop via the east and west through Edinburgh and Glasgow such that you could jump on a train anywhere in the country and get to the continent without needing to change.
We couldn't even manage the non high speed North of London Eurostars or the Nightstars.
@@GreenJimll Oh how I would love a sleeper from Newcastle arriving in Paris in the morning
Eurostar North of London.
Because I wasn't hired to consult the project.
I'm saying sorry here 😢
Hi Charlie
Absolutely !!
Yes!
Best sockpuppet ever!
This would have never happened if you were still around.
"Lugging two suitcases and three screaming kids." Exactly the difference between normal people and "pen-pushers". Couldn't organise a knees-up in a brewery!
There's a Spitting Image sketch of John Major's government trying and failing to do a party in a brewery. 😁
Ah yes, the traditionally underrepresented class
Not so much pen-pushers as ministers of parliament that commute by helicopter or Rolls-Royce
I think it's 3 times now my wife and I have gotten off a Eurostar service and walked up the back streets (Brill Place, Phoenix Rd, the route is signposted) lugging our bags to Euston. It's a short enough walk to not make it worth using the Underground, Euston Rd itself is a 'traffic sewer' and unpleasant to walk along. We also leave ourselves 2hrs (or more) between arriving at St Pancras and our departure from Euston. Usually time it so we can have a sit-down lunch at Euston Nados :-).
@@GryphLane Can you name a single MP that commutes routinely by helicopter or RR? MPs earn £85kpa, and even the PM earns £160k, which is hardly Rolls Royce money. (I acknowledge our present PM is independently wealthy).
This is absolutely my personal bugbear, every single time I read about how the project changed scope over the years I get more and more angry at how it ended up with two disconnected railways.
To me this is such a classic case of "Build it and they will come", especially pre-brexit but even now, being able to offer continental services from Birmingham and Manchester would've been absolutely incredible. I don't *want* to fly to Paris if I don't have to.
I'm surprised you didn't talk about the other proposed link through Camden either, which was both incredibly short and incredibly direct.
Well the WCML is connected to HS1 and how many trains use that connection?
@@jamwil200 Does the WCML have the capacity to run any more trains, let alone high speed services that aren't high speed for a large portion of their journey?
HS2 does, which is the entire point of building the line.
Hell I'd even argue that there *should* be trains that use that connection! There's just absolutely not enough space on the rails.
If it helps ease the pain, Tucson to Phoenix has a ridiculous road connection that has had several proposals over the years to connect by rail. We're still waiting.
Hell, Tucson used to only be (ahem) "served" by a train once every few days, at midnight.
Could do with a reincarnation of Yerkes who likes Sonora dogs...
@@JademaloWell if it was particuarly important to run those services I'm sure one train path an hour could be found.
@@Jademalo HS2 will only have the capacity to run more trains than the Euston ones because the number of northern destinations has been purged!
Having done the walk from Euston to St Pancras to get from Manchester to Paris, with 2 large suitcases and two small kids in tow, it was bloody horrible and we will never do it again. (Apart from anything the kids are grown up now 😂)
I quite agree - horrible walk. Up and down kerbs, busy crossings, awful uneven pavement surfaces. Definitely not suitcase or people friendly.
It's a LOT longer than it looks on the map!
It's also a ridiculous idea trying to get a family's suitcases onto a bus particularly one stopping at a major London station that will almost certainly be crowded. The people who think this will work have never had to do it themselves
@@kityhawk2000 the whole changing at Old Oak Common thing is bonkers. We can't even build a new line that actually reaches a London terminus! A terminus we are currently rebuilding because it will be the HS2 terminus!!!!!!
I have done said walk a few times, and while Euston Road isn't the most inspiring walk, it's definitely doable. I've walked further distances inside Schiphol. And there is a quieter alternative, take the exit on Midland Road, next to Le Pain Quotidien, walk turn right then left onto Dangoor Walk, behind the British Library, then through the Ossulston Estate (the gates are normally open, and I couldn't find a sign that said i couldn't go through them), at the end left on Chalton Street and through the narrow Churchway on the right towards the Doric Way, where you continue. Turn left again at the end, the side entrance to Euston is a little further on the right.
If this had been an episode of "Yes Minister",, we would all have had a good laugh at the absurdity of Ministerial decisions..as it is its the usual lack of joined up thinking at the upper echelons of government...We will regret this in the decades to come...Thanks Jago, keep the HS2 vids coming!
Yes minster would is a documentary of commanding confidence in compassion to the grandure of idoicarzy democracy we seem rather competent with to charge with today
I thought it was an episode of yes (prime) minister?
Indeed, an integrated transport network devised by a transport supremo.
The Japanese proved high speed rail could work 60 years ago. Now their new maglev line which is currently being built has trains that can reach 600 kph and will literally be faster than flying. Its so frustrating to see the short sightedness and lack of interest in investing in rail infrastructure in the UK
@@kityhawk2000 let's hope
Edward Watkin wanted to run trains from the North West through a Channel tunnel to Paris. But that idea was mooted only 125 years ago. The British need more time to appreciate such strange notions.
Probably not the best example, Watkin effectively bankrupted the GCR extending as far as London.
It doesn’t connect because Westminster doesn’t want Scotland to have direct access to Europe.
That tunnel would have probably be "damaged" in WW1 or WW2
"Show your passport at Birmingham Curzon and arrive in Brussels or Paris three hours later.."
That was part of the Eurostar plan.
*Birmingham Interchange.
Curzon Street would have never had through trains to Europe, unless they reversed from further north. Birmingham would have been served with Europe trains at Interchange (where Manchester/Leeds portions would joint). This is due to the limited capacity on HS2 south of Birmingham for non-London trains, and on any HS1-HS2 link for trains that don't try and tick as many boxes as possible.
In a slightly different timeline, they don't bother with the passport checks.
and all for a mere £300+ per person
@@geirmyrvagnes8718 or they do but they just do it on the train.
Living in Sydney I am so jealous of the idea of being able to get on a fast train to get places. Maybe one day we'll get high speed to Newcastle (~130km away) or Canberra (~300km away), rather than the multi-hour slogs those two trips currently are. I cannot fathom why, when building the infrastructure in the first place, a giant network isn't being built. The idea of being able to go from Edinburgh or Birmingham to Paris or Brussels via train just sounds so wonderful.
Yep, you Aussies can relate to Americans and Canadians in this way
Sadly I think our countries are just too large to make coast-to-coast HSR a viable thing
Via Rail Canada each your heart out! Sympathy with Aussie distances!
Singaporeans might be jealous too but a conspiracy theory is that our gov't may have less incentive to promote HSR to nearby KL city in neighbouring Malaysia as it'd encourage more Singaporeans to holiday & spend in KL instead of locally, leading to an outflow of money from the local economy
We all know the reason in all truth.. that would need planning & forethought
Follow the money. It's not for lack of planning (plotting), it's because the tories couldn't figure out a good, plausibly deniable way to cream off a few million for a mansion or several via compulsory land purchase etc.
In the late 1950s my dad's job moved from clever, sophisticated and never rainy Manchester to dreadful, deprived, tree soaked Hertfordshire. We left our spacious Edwardian mansion in M20 in a pre-war, spindly taxi to Central Station, then on to Euston. We travelled the less than kilometre to King's Cross by tube. The rail journey to Hatfield was by slow chuffer, and thence to our poky terraced semi with hardly room to swing our black and white puss. I mention this as the most torturous part of the whole sorry tale was the Euston to King's Cross Leg.
I have forever wondered at the madness of circling the capital with railway termini rather than engineering a colossal central hub to which all lines converge. Too simple, I hear you say. Haha!
P.S. I was not a screaming kid, but a weary yet well behaved person of nine, approaching 35.
That central hub exists now, it's called Farringdon.
With Paris being the major exception, I like that many European cities have one big central/centraal/Haupt- station that all trains stop at.
@@peter_smyth and Amsterdam! Lots of trains now terminating at Amsterdam Zuid (South).
Wasn't the line from Watford Junction to Hatfield still open in the 1950s, that might have saved the need to change stations in London?
Or Japan's system of joining its major cities' railway stations together in a loop e.g. Osaka Loop Line, Tokyo's Yamanote Line has advantages too
Mr Hazzard, you are permitted to diversify beyond London specific transport history. We are primarily here to hear interesting things about transport history and future in the UK.
As a Londoner I profusely object. I'm sure there are other channels that are dedicated to the cause when it comes to matters of the rest of the UK. Besides, does he not digress enough?
@@JW1_1 not so location specific and to such a quality. Should you find one I'd like please do forward it on. I have come to London from elsewhere and the combined informative video collection on London is far more substantial and to a much more satisfactory standard - in no small part thanks to the efforts of those like Mr Hazzard here. London already gets so much of the budget (at least in the eyes of the general population) and international+media attention, why limit yourself?
Custom entry. Simple answer. HS1 is an extension of LGV Nord (ligne à grand vitesse). It’s a French railway, extending into the UK.
Had it gone ahead, Ken Livingstone's Cross River Tram would have provided a link from St Pancras to Euston using the Brill Place / Phoenix Rd axis (the street north of the Crick research centre). Had this gone ahead it would already be open. Looking further ahead, Crossrail 2 will have a Euston St Pancras (think Moorgate Liverpool St) double ended station with through passages, so you could walk between the two.
My personal mad idea would be to use the Brill Place route and have an airport terminal style people mover starting from Kings Cross, passing through the modern bit of St Pancras above the platforms and then ending at Euston above the new HS2 terminal. The whole thing could be "train side" so only accessible from the platforms at the three stations for those with tickets to ensure security.
I've probably been over influenced by the Paris Metro at Gare d'Austerlitz where the line is in the station roof or the Wuppertal h-bahn. Or maybe the Manchester Victoria roof level parcel transporter thing, which is a bit of history I could see you liking.
I go to Manchester for the northen quarter and tbh Victoria is a perfect representation of Manchester a Victorian splendor whilst wallowing away in grot
Your videos are the high speed train to my slow days.
Because that's the job for HS3!
Liverpool - Leeds - Leiden!
HS3 will be the London-Reading-Bristol link, with the bit past Reading cancelled.
@@sIightIybored at that point just take the Elizabeth line lol
@@xtskywalker9101atleast it's built
@@xtskywalker9101 It will be because of the Elizabeth line this HS3 will be needed.
When the Channel tunnel was being constructed in the early 90's, we were being confidently told that high speed trains from the continent would be travelling to Glasgow and Edinburgh by 1997.
7 Tory and 2 Labour PMs latter and we have got to North London, and Birming ham by 2030.
Realistically I dont see TGV reaching Scotland until 2060 at the earliest.
I can't believe I hadn't thought of this before, but you're right! It's not as if there's a lack of space under the trainshed at St. Pancras; there's plenty of room to reinstate the covers and add more tracks where they used to be. The shopping mall might complain that they're less "open and airy", but, well, it's a train station, not a mall, and the big stations in Germany seem to get on alright with their rightful occupants rumbling by overhead. If there's security concerns over international services, well 1. maybe add that to the list of reasons why Brexit was a bad idea, and 2. move all the Eurostar services to one side of the trainshed and have the HS2 services on the other.
It might have been alright when HS2 was supposed to terminate at Euston; that's either one Tube stop or a light walk away from St. Pancras; the two could even have been linked by an underground or overhead pedestrian walkway. But no. Conservative wonks have done all in their power to sabotage Britain's best chance for progress, so now it goes from next to nowhere to next to nowhere, ending in a former loco servicing yard where you have to change trains to get into the City. Admittedly, there's a lot of options for changing, but it's still options too many when compared to a through run into Euston or St. Pancras.
P.S. Mentioning the idea of through traffic from the Continent to the North brings up another possibility for HS2 that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned or considered: Taking strain off of London's airports. Heathrow and Gatwick are already very crowded international hubs, Heathrow in particular being one of the busiest airports in the world, and the need for international air travel is only growing. But if there was, say, a high speed rail link up to, for instance, Manchester International Airport, then more flights to and from the Americas could be redistributed between the two, with MIA suddenly being only a couple extra hours' train ride from the heart of London, not much inconvenience at all. This could even extend to international journeys; fly into MIA and get the train direct to Paris or Amsterdam, which would also take pressure off Gatwick and its responsibility for Continental flights.
Birmingham Airport lobbied against the extra runway at Heathrow arguing that with HS2, Londoners could fly out of BHX and that their own airport could be further developed easily.
@@citizenerased1992what on earth were they smoking when they came up with that idea. Why would any Londoner take an expensive train to Birmingham when there’s 5 closer airports
Also of note but not entirely related are the Regional Eurostar Plans which were made to work with the old line into Waterloo, this would've seen trains go up the line via Kensington Olympia and onto the north that way.
I remember in the late 90s the rather optimistic site of a Eurostar Waiting Area in Glasgow Central expecting trains from Europe any time soon. 25 years later and still waiting
I feel that the idea of running next to the North London line could have easily been achieved without much cost. The line used to be Quad track with old infrastructure still there. If they realigned the North London line to the current disused alignment and rebuilt the stations appropriately, High Speed trains would operate on the lines the overground currently runs.
Indeed Overground and mainline / freight services would not even cross paths.
Probably commented by others , but the Great Central Line connecting to the Met to the ELL was suppose to go to the channel tunnel and onto france
The GCL should of Stayed it would work perfectly as a high speed line
@@sglenny001*should have
The obvious solution would be for HS2 to connect with HS1 between Old Oak Common and Stratford International. Euston would be the London terminal for domestic HS services and St Pancras for International services with direct trains from the North to Europe calling at OOC and Stratford. The Elizabeth Line connects both stations to Central London and Stratford International is no longer a white elephant.
It would also provide domestic services from the South East to the North without changing or traversing central London
HS2 really is our Roman Empire.
I don’t follow my Lord. The Roman Empire was a thoroughly successful political entity, one of the greatest in all history. HS2 is a shadow of what it could have been thanks to our pathetic, disgusting government.
It's the silksong of the British rail fandom
It's a triumph of political slogans, political posturing and political torpedos aimed at the next government over real planning and need.
Rather like aircraft carriers with no aircraft ( or support groups ).
What's that supposed to mean?
I think it’s also important to mention the plans for crossrail two and how Euston King’s Cross St Pancras would become a mega station if it were to ever be completed making the connection via a subway even more convenient
Maybe you need to think further afield. the LGV Interconnexion in Paris links 3 of the 4 high speed lines darting off from it. It's way further away than the link that was planned in London. Although we don't have an Old Oak Common to worry about. In London this could look line an arc going near the M25 with a station around Enfield or somewhere around that. It'd be a lot less bothering to construct and if it's close to the M25, nimbys can be shut down easily. Old Oak Common is really what breaks it
Someone already thought of that with HS4Air and it got rejected
I've always wondered. I had no idea it had been researched and proposed to the extent that it had.
More HS2 stuff might be good. There's so much out there it overloads by ability to go looking for it that it might as well be here as I know it will be well researched, succinctly documented in a concise video, and also easy to find.
1:45 "I should emphasize that this map is not even remotely to scale" _and shows HS1 heading off in a north-westerly direction, rather than turning east and running underneath the North London Line as it actually does._
That was HS2 sir
@@u1zha I wonder why Jago labelled it HS1, then. (HS2 is correctly shown leaving the map slightly south of west.)
keep asking interesting questions boys, these videos are gold
There are other proposals for linking HS1 and HS2, such as "Cross City Connect" which would build a tunnel from OOC to Barking via Waterloo and South Bank, bypassing Euston altogether.
Another was HS4Air, which would've run via Gatwick and Heathrow with a connection to the GWML, thus opening up the possibility of international services from South Wales and the West Country as well
even a connection from HS1 to the east Coast Mainline would have been a significant improvement- if only to run Intercity routes from Kent to places in the North
Even allowing the Northerners to meet their Kent counterparts without having navigate London would have been worthwhile.
The facility to join the two is there in Parts .the ramps and bed are in place from hs1.the tunnel isn't!
was stopped by a court case as goes under a very expensive area of London..
I would say still might be a option later .
We only got HS1 as The French Government was our Co-Partner for The Eurostar, otherwise it would have ever happened. I knew this current Government would bodge up HS2. 2013 as you mentioned was Pre-Brexit and Ebbsfleet and Ashford don’t operate post Brexit and Eurostar has relocated its HQ to Brussels as a result.
Fascinating and informative video, very enjoyable Jago. I for one would definitely welcome more HS 1 & 2 content on the channel.
Finishing with covering the demolition by explosives of the unused viaducts when the whole thing is finally cancelled as the unwanted, unjustifiable boondoggle it always was!
Brilliant video sir.
We do need jago Hazzard merch and an official fan club!
There is a track connection between HS1 and NLL and thence WCML at Incline Junction. The original plan was for direct overnight trains from the north to Paris called Nightstar. The dinosaurs at the Home Office and HMRC would not agree to conduct customs and immigration checks on the train, as had been the normal practice in the EU before the Single Market. Consequently the brand new ultra resilient locomotives and rolling stock mouldered in sidings near Paddington for years, before being sold off cheap to Canada and direct service never started. So for a passenger (me) from Manchester to Paris say, you have the miserable prospect of running into Euston, transferring to St. Pancras, queueing up for the lengthy delays clearing customs and immigration at St. P (or in Paris in the reverse direction). I hate flying, but have flown scores of times to / from Paris and Brussels. I have never taken the train once and never will until they run through services.
HS2 for various reasons is the most interesting project going on in the UK so I would love to see more videos on it.
A joined-up rail network? Be careful, Jago, people have been burnt at the stake for heresy!
And on the subject of HS1, wasn't Brunel's London-Bristol line the first designed for high-speed running? At least by 19th century standards...
These days it is called higher speed rail. 125mph doesn't really count as "high speed" these days.
Thinking of not-so-joined up lines, at the other end of HS2 is Curzon Street station, the original being run by the LNWR. When the GWR came to town, they were required to make a connection to the LNWR, but the LNWR didn't want them to. At the time, the LNWR were extending to what would become New Street, but demanded the GWR build their connection to Curzon Street. So GWR dutifully built the Duddeston Viaduct up to the boundary with the LNWR's extension line, only to find the LNWR denied them permission to cross it, leaving a Viaduct to nowhere running through Digbeth. While the top end, and most of the road bridges, were later pruned, the bulk of the Viaduct still stands today.
Rivalry between railway companies, and one requiring another to build an expensive piece of useless infrastructure out of spite? That's right up Jago's street (and, if he didn't collect footage of it on his visit to Brum, worth another trip. There are plenty of other tales from the Midlands as well, such as a Victorian cut 'n' cover tunnel that they built shops over (Great Western Arcade), Wolverhampton and Leamington originally having almost side-by-side stations run by different companies, the Metro recycling two abandoned railway lines (well, currently one, the other's under construction), the shortest branch line in the UK at Stourbridge (complete with their own unique rolling stock), the Lickey Incline...
Heck, he could do with taking a week's holiday in the Midlands (probably staying somewhere like Stratford or Warwick rather than Brum itself!)...
@@katrinabryce technically it's the lower end.... 125-140mph is the max limit of conventional track.
You answered your own question in your last sentence - 'by 19th century standards'!
Because it's an entirely political idea that would be terrible operationally, see little traffic (the more optimistic plan had people walking between Stratford stations to get from HS2 to Docklands/East London to boost numbers!), and not be of much use to most of the traffic using it as they still would have to had to have changed trains due to disperse destinations either end of it and either only serving a few destinations either side properly, or serving everywhere but at such low frequency as to make it pointless.
I mean, the same goes for HS2 as a whole. No business case, no economic justification. Whole thing should have been scrapped long ago and may yet be.
There was also an understanding that Crossrail 2 would be built with a station running between Euston and St Pancras (you can actually see some passive provision for it on the Thameslink platforms with a false wall at the top of the escalators from the Northbound platform as well as in the design for the extension of the British Library now being built). There was to be a travelator running the length of the CR2 station from the proposed underpass beneath all the platforms at Euston giving a completely covered and significantly faster connection when compared to the surface.
Predictably the government have now cancelled or revised all aspects of this well thought out and workable plan. 😊
because even if they planned to they'd cancel it anyway after going £100b over budget
Probably a good decision in hindsight on pricing grounds. Catching the Eurostar from London to Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam is already very expensive compared to catching a cheap flight out of Luton, Gatwick or even City airport. For the majority of people in Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds it would have been utterly uncompetitive due to the price, and I doubt there would have been enough business travellers paying for the luxury and convenience to justify such a service.
We could tax the airlines and use the revenue to reduce the Eurostar prices? The problem with cheap flights is they encourage a small minority to travel lots, not lots of people travelling lots. Also a big issue is HS1 being sold off to a pension fund who charge far more for it's use than they should. Perhaps under a new govt the Competition Commission might have a good look at how they justify the high prices. Eurostar have to charge a lot to simply pay to get to the tunnel. (Similar problem in France where the Bordeaux LGV is under used as SNCF don't want to pay the high charges to the private contractors who own it, ditto the LGV into Spain to Barcelona.)
@@ADAMEDWARDS17Also, with all the extra charges they often end up not being all that cheap anyway!
I recall them finding insufficient through traffic but still would make sense for both high speed lines to use same station so an onward connection was as simple as possible. Wonder how the link and cheap link will compare to demolishing an entire block of London for the new station.
i worked in central london at the time the land north of KGX was sold off for development, the land where both HS1 and HS2 should have co-existed in a sub-surface station after which the land above could have been developed just as easily. Tunnels in and tunnels out. Not spending £800m on STP and £2.6bn on Euston with all the associated disruption. There is also a disused tube station ready and waiting on York Way.
Something perhaps not considered is having the link connect to St Pancras as a Lizzy line style underground station, it could then continue on to merge with HS1 some way further east. This would increase station capacity which is a huge bonus and what we actually need in order to increase international services.
The stupid thing about high speed rail in the UK is:
• We build a terminal station at Waterloo International that got abandoned,
• We built a terminal station at St Pancras that will need to be abandoned to switch to a through service from Europe to Scotland and
• We are going to build a terminal station at Euston that will need to be abandoned to switch to a through service from Europe to Scotland.
The business case for Crossrail makes it obvious that London also needs InterCity services that pass through London instead of terminating there.
And the same applies to every city between London and Scotland.
You know how the multiple branches on the Metropolitan Railway destroyed the capacity of the network and required closures and branchlines being passed onto the Bakerloo Line. The same is going to end up needing to be done to our emerging high speed network.
So why not just build the high speed network that has enough capacity to allow sports fans to travel from the Eurotunnel to the major sports stadiums in England, Scotland and Wales, instead of building a bunch of dead-end spurs that will have to be abandoned in the future?
The link plans as they appeared on the HS2 document website almost look engineered to fail - a nice grade separated connection off of HS2 onto... Primrose Hill and the very busiest part of the NLL at Camden, where it's only 2 track?
A true (expensive) link would have continued underground and connected with HS1 at another grade separated junction.
Since His Majesty's Government seem so intent on reducing Euston to a vestigal limb, maybe the only way to get full capacity out of HS2 would be to send trains to Stratford and beyond...
Yes but the section from Incline Junction to Camden Road Junction was 4 track and could be relaid. The overground and mainline services would not even cross paths. The connection is already used for goods trains from Felixstowe and Tilbury to WCML and from freight trains from HS1.
I much prefer going by train, than air as you have to get from where you live to the airport, though the need to enlarge the Checking in area as it way to small at St Pancras there are not enough people to help those less able to navigate the scanners and the seating area is crowded.
If only they joined up the railway and I wouldn't need to weigh up the 5hr trip to St Pancras vs a 30 minute drive to the airport.
Thanks for this explication, it adds light on this obscure decision.
Yes exactly something I've pondered for all the points you mention.
I think HS1 and 2 should have been linked, the "not have to change trains and lug luggage" is the major convenience. Especially on longer intercity type routes. People will have large luggage a real lot of the time.
Even if the trains were say hourly that could go from Birmingham to Paris. (Yes HS2 should really still go to Manchester and Leeds, but that's another story)
See from my perspective, out in the wilds of Essex, very near Shenfield, when I get to Shenfield, if I want to go to say Tottenham Court Road I now have 2 choices.
The fast Greater Anglia up to Stratford and then change onto say either the Lizzie or Central line, or just get on the "slow" Lizzie line and go all the way without changing trains.
On the rare occassions I go to Tottenham Court Road these days, I always pick the slow lizzie line all the way, even though the seats are "Rock Hard" !!!
Although the lizzie line train is a lot slower to Stratford , well changing trains finding a space on the Central or Lizzie line is hard. Time wise there isn't much in it.
On Lizzie Line's seats they make me think of "Rokard Mints, Mentos" advert I remember when I was a real lot younger in the 1980s !
ruclips.net/video/UMLILUnRD9I/видео.html
On the Central Line, I've thought for probably near 20 years now that it should be renamed to the Sardintral Line. It's a can of tightly packed "meat", and the line is also red. Just makes me think of cans of sardines in tomato sauce !
The tagline question for the Sardintral line could be "how squashed were you today ?"
I heard something I had not considered about HS2 today. The HS2 trains have been designed for large curves and as such did not need the tilting mech that the Pendolinos' have, this invites the situation where at some point soon our clueless PM will announce through running to the WCML at Birmingham and slow everything to a crawl as they slow down for bends. 🙄
Well you heard wrong mate, the HS2 trains have been desighned to travel not only on HS2 with in cab signalling but also on the conventional WCML to Manchester, Liverpool and Scotland using conventional signalling and will operate on normal lines and curves. HS2 trains to Birmingham will not operate on the normal WCML and by the time HS2 opens the Pendolino trains will be retiring and the reason Avanti West Coast trains are not ordering any more tilting trains as there will not e any need for them once HS2 opens and they were Richard Branson's and Virgin Train's idea.
@peterwilliamallen1063 This whole comment is wrong. The HS2 trains will be built by the Alstom-Hitachi consortium. These will be built to fit in the British loading gauge so that they can run on the legacy rail network (you can already see this because of their tucked in undersides). Then your whole point about the tilting trains not being ordered anymore? He was talking about the fact that 125mph on the legacy network is only possible with tilting trains (If you want to continously run 125mph).
@@StefanWithTrains3222 Well you did not read mine or "cyclingsteve"s comment correctly, I actually live in Birmingham the HQ of both HS2 Ltd and the HS2 service operator Avanti Westcoast Trains / Trenitalia, I work on a Railway , I am a Railway Enthusast and are an ardent HS2 supporter. These HS2 trains are being desighned to the UK loading Gauge as they will not be working any where else but in the UK and the so called curved sides as you put it has nothing to do with the loading gauge just desighn looks by the manufacturer as coaches and locos in the past have had curved sides, they will be configured for dual in cab signalling on HS2 and conventional colour light and semaphore signalling on the existing WCML route.
My whole point of about not ordering Tilting Trains any more, well if you read my comment to "cyclingsteve" comment is the answer to his daft comment of, " through running to the WCML at Birmingham and slow everything to a crawl as they slow for bends 🙄", well first the HS2 line does not join the WCML at Birmingham it joins it near Lichfield in Staffordshire at a place called Handsacre arround 10 miles from the Delta Junction on the outskirts of Birmingham where at the moment it is planned for the HS2 line to join on to the WCML for them to continue their journey to Manchester, Liverpool and Scotland of which for this short section 110 mph is sufficient as even 125 MPH Pendolinos would be slowing down if they are stopping at Stafford or Crewe, even this now is up in the air as the Mayor of the West Midlands Andy Street and the Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham met in Birmingham to disgus ways to resurrect the hispeed link between Birmingham and Manchester by either upgrading this section of the WCML or resurecting plans of building the HS2 line and the next point is that Avanti West Coast are not ordering tilting trains any more as the only place they can do 125 MPH with tilt is south of Crewe and they were the brain child of Richard Branson and Virgin trains and he wanted a speed of 140 MPH on this section which never came about after 2 failed attempts to upgrade the WCML south of Crewe hence the decision to build HS2 and the decision of Avanti Trains to purchase class 805 /807 IET trains for west coast services in place of the Voyager trains as per it's parent company First Great Western and any train can do 125 MPH on suitable tracks with the correct cant on bends as what happens on the West Country route between Paddington and Bristol, the Midland Main Line and ECML route where trains have done 125 MPH with InterCity 125 trains for 50 years and still do with class 800 IET trains and other types of hi speed train, so to put things into context;
The HS2 trains are desighned to run on HS2 and Conventional lines utilising both in cab signalling and conventional signalling on the WCML, they are built to the UK loading Gauge which will allow them to fit through existing platforms, bridges and tunnels on the WCML as the tunnels and overbridges on the HS2 line will be built larger especially the tunnels to prevent the load bang as these trains will make caused by the pushing of air through the tunnel as these trains enter the tunnels, the shape of the body has nothing to do with the loading gauge as this is just to do with desighn and looks and aerodynamics for speed as no permanent desighn has been agreed on yet and you are just looking at the makers plans and as the WCML wont be used by the majority of Avanti Hi Speed Services which will use the HS2 route there is no requirement for tilting trains any longer plus service in Europe similiar to HS2 in Italy, Spain, Belgium, rance and Germany on similiar High Speed lines do not use tilting trains.
Well when travelling to the south of France by train (from London), you have to change stations at Paris. This won't be much different. Just as long as they don't design the tunnel to Euston in such a way that they can't be joined in future. I don't particularly mind.
I live in London, but personally think the railway between Sheffield and Manchester is the most important line to upgrade next (even before doing the cancelled parts of HS2, which will have to be done at some point).
It's less than 2 train-lengths' walk between Euston and St Pancras - that is very different (much better) than having to change between Nord and Lyon in Paris.
You don't necessarily have to cross Paris. Eurostar St Pancras - Lille, and then pick up an onwards TGV with a simple cross-platform change. Eurostars used to run to Marseilles, the Alps, and there's no technical reason why they couldn't go further afield.
I think the issue is the more changes you have to make, and the associated issues like moving luggage and the risks of missed connections, the more that direct flight on a budget airline seems like the less stressful option. Having one in Paris may seem tolerable, another in London and that tips the scales for many travellers.
Surely they'll just build a travolator between Euston and St.Pancras? That's the least they could do if HS2 ever gets to Euston.
Yes - why spoil the airport experience of walking for a mile or so that everyone loves so much
If the British Library hadn't been built next to St Pancras, then that would have been the perfect location for a high speed station serving both HS1 and HS2...
I'd have said build the new St Pancras for HS1&2 under all three stations and make a massive interchange...but then I think like a Victorian who wants good things rather than a civil servant
See Jago's video on the planned Grand Central type station at Farringdon.
Eurostar could do with its local route from Brussels that call at Calais, Ashford International, Ebsfleet International, Stratford International (finally can be considered an international Station) Passing through a possible new tunnel into Old Oak Common, calling at Old Oak Common, And Birmingham Curzon Street, and express services between all these cities can also be run, but Eurostar does do local services rarely but could use all these stations in the process, as Stratford International And Old Oak Common although not in the exact city centre, have tonnes of links into the city and can make either the East Or West of London more Accessible
JH, the King of RUclips videos
I have done the trek from Euston to st pancreas with 2 suitcases and a child, it's really not that hard
What is really off-putting though is the time factor. When you need to account for the possibility of your domestic train from the north arriving an hour late, 30 min to make the crossing and and 60 min advised time to arrive before eurostar for check in etc then it adds 2.5 hours to your journey time
Creating a link to allow direct travel from the midlands and the north through to the continent is the only way to attract customers from the airlines
One child and not screaming, lucky.
@@johnboxxy3432 helps if your child loves trains and is eager to get to the next station lol
*Pancras
As someone from the US who hopes to ride the rails in Britain one day I appreciate the video because I was honestly curious as to why there was no connection.
I'm not a particular fan of his but Michael Portillo did good series called Great British Railway Journeys including coastal routes for a more relaxed and scenic way of rail travel.
@@Phuc_Yhou awesome thank you
There will be no connection between HS2 and HS1 because there are not enough people from Birmingham and Manchester that would want to travel by train to Paris and Europe when it is easier and cheaper to fly from Birmingham and Manchester to Europe
@@peterwilliamallen1063 there was never any business case for building either high speed line in the first place. We're lumbered with HS1 now, but it's still not too late to cancel HS2 and rip up what little has been built so far...
@@richardharrold9736 HS2 is nothing to do with aa business case what ever that is, it was due to the fact that the WCML since privatiseasion has now become totaly congested due to now a large emphasis on Freight trains using the WCML and 2 failed attempts to upgrade the WCML to rsaise the speed from 110 MPH to 140 MPH, as the case that high speed trains, semi fast train services, commuter trains and freight services do not mix the only sollution was to build a new high speed passenger line by passing the southern half of the WCML from Crewe to London Euston so iit was decided on a high speed line with speeds of 250 MPH which with all hi speed train services from Scotland, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham will transfer from operating on the WCML to operating on the HS2 line so freeing up the WCML's capacity for more freight services and other siveces on the WCML south of Crewe, so the Business case for HS2 amounts to the fact of faster trains on the West Coast route via the HS2 line and freeing up the existing WCML south of Crewe for far more freight trains and other passenger services.
We are not as you put it lumbered with HS1 which connects the UK with Euroe with a fast train service of 186 MPH and a freight link between the UK and Europe where by a freight container train can depart the UK and travel through the Channel Tunnel to Italy direct dilivering fruit, veg and cars. what we are lumbered with are congested motorways
The decision not to proceed with the link was terrible. It would have been a great opportunity for connectivity, especially from the perspective of loading gauges. This link would have allowed larger European-gauge trains (potentially double-decker ones) to go further north. Yes, it is possible to cross London by other means, but one of the purposes of HS2 was to decentralise Britain, which would have been an awful lot easier, had the route gone through London, rather than ending there. Even for passengers changing in London, so many more connection options would have been generated, for instance Cardiff to Ashford with just one change. Some people might ask me how many people actually want to do that, but we need to get away from the focus of what point-to-point journeys to and from London are like and look at how long it takes to travel around the system as a whole, since not everyone lives within walking distance of the London termini.
A capacity of three trains per hour on a double-track line? There pretty much has to be a non-obvious bottleneck.
It was single-track on the freight line route through Camden, but the main bottleneck was west/north of Old Oak Common. While most HS1 passengers (rather than Stratford-HS2 ones) via the link would have changed at OOC, they needed to have them go beyond London (as that was the political justification for the link) and doing so would have had to have removed Paddington/Euston trains off the GWML and HS1 to make room for more than 3tph via the link. And given that 3tph was enough to cover even the artificially high demand that they modelled, why bother scuppering the (weak) case by diverting trains from Zone 1 destinations where most people on those trains want to go?
I wonder if it would have been possible to build an underground travelator between Euston and St Pancras, which would have solved the problem nicely. The tunnel between Euston and Euston Sq is a nice idea for travelling to St Pancras, even if it does mean walking in the wrong direction, but most people will take the Victoria line or Northern line to get between the two. Of course, none of this addresses the question of why the Elizabeth Line doesn't connect to Euston & St Pancras, thus joining these stations to Paddington and Heathrow airport either.
They already have one, it is called the Tube.
If you view the situation from a London perspective, there’s no problem. High speed trains to Paris/Europe from St Pancras, and High speed trains to Birmingham from Euston. Both St Pancras and the new planned Euston each receiving approx £1 billion of taxpayer funds. London Waterloo received huge investment as the original terminus for HS1. Also significant money for London Stratford for the revised HS1. So what’s not to like from a London perspective?
If you live in the North, as I do, then it’s a different perspective.
What ive done personally speaking would personally is used st pancras and the whole St Pancras (spelt that wrong) and the whole Midland mainland as a high speed line due to it connecting most core citys in the UK then make the there be a race say to Nottingham or leeds have one team starting at Glasgow the other London these will make more viabal then you invest in regional development around the core citys like Sheffield its and south yorkshire could contue tram train technology give money to Glasgow to make an S-Bahn style for its outer links with an outer loop then get leeds to help with hull created an grand brand new terminals in york for east west terminals Liverpool already has the grand statement piece for Doncaster Airport keep it as a cargo airport but put money instead of teat case for passengers airport make that whole area an tram subhurb to prove trams can work in donny
you'd think (or at least I feel like) they could have just made st pancras the main terminus of hs2 anyway. Given they were already gonna build a tunnel to euston surely it wouldnt be too much more expensive to just send it to st Pancras instead. Obviously st pancras would probably need alot of work to facillitate this but as again as they were already gonna rebuild Euston surely it would be roughly the same price to do St Pancras, infact I'd reckon adding some more platforms to St Pancras would be cheaper than all the work theyre doing at Euston, especially as it already has facilities for High Speed Trains. Dont really know how realistic this actually is but just giving my thoughts
Because some rich people in Camden did everything they could to block it, thus ridiculing the whole point of the high speed network, which was that you were supposed to be able to get on a train in Manchester or Leeds and get off in Paris, Brussels or Amsterdam, without having to change trains.
I wonder if it was thought why would anyone in Manchester be cutured enough to want to go to Paris ?
Far more people would use a passenger service between Willesden Junction and Highbury & Islington over that trackbed than the North and Europe. And you'd still be able to run the freight trains that currently use the line (as you'd change very little) unlike if you singled it to provide the necessary guage clearances running High Speed Trains. Those freight trains would then have to get in the way of North London Line trains, affecting that very busy service so a tiny handful of rich northerners don't have to change trains in the capital they hate.
PS: Through trains were never the whole point. They were, at best, a potential bonus for a few billion more: an afterthought.
I think the best comment is to say "watch this space" ... not because I am better connected or better informed but because with time there is plenty of scope for more right decisions to be made. Night sleeper Manchester (or perhaps Edinburgh) via Birmingham around London to Paris? This brings into question whether what comes next needs to be high speed or just well connected.
Another advantage of this would have been, trains from Birmingham or the north to Stratford international, so easy travel to canary wharf and the whole of east London where there is a lot of new developments
As I sit here in South Eastern Spain watching the hilarious story of HS1+2 debacle I comfort myself that anti-Franco Almeria is finally getting high speed rail links to Madrid and elsewhere. The difference between here and UK is that both countries take ages to plan stuff, but Spain actually implement it in the end, unlike the UK.
@@xr6lad No idea what the 'bread and circus' projects are. Please enlighten me where I can find more info. Gracias
@@IndaloMan Bread and circuses is from ancient Rome where the Emperor had to provide cheap bread and blood thirsty circuses to keep the Rome mob happy. I think the poster is seeing Spanish high speed as a means to keep the mob employed, the crucial difference being when you've built a high speed line you have a something which will last where as bread doesn't.
There's a magnificent new airport, unsullied by passengers, out in the middle of nowhere. Driving on roads in the Pyrenees shows other half-finished projects . . . @@IndaloMan
HST2 should have been a link from an expanded Stratford International to Heathrow. This would have allowed direct trains from Heathrow to continental destinations. It should have had junctions to ECML, WCML and GWML allowing direct trains from these lines to Heathrow, Stratford and possibly on through the tunnel. HST3 phase 1 would have been what is now being built from Old Oak Common to Birmingham allowing direct trains from Birmingham to Heathrow and the Continent stopping at Stratford. Phase 1 could optionally have a link to a slightly expanded Euston but I'm not sure that it would be financially viable given the other Greater London Stations. Phases 2 and 3 would obviously be the links to West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester/Merseyside.
Taking it via Heathrow would've significantly lengthened the route and thus partially defeated the object of a high speed line
If Crossrail 2 ever gets built then there sort of will be a link between the two stations. I believe CR2 station is provisionally called "Euston-St Pancreas". Best not hold your breath for that being built though.
Good one Jago 👍
Maybe if hs2 eventually completes, proves its popularity and and maybe is even expanded, the link might be enticed back on the table again.
Aircraft are quicker than trains but the question of aircraft emissions will have to be addressed sometime .Electric trains produce 14% of the emissions aircraft produce according to a Google search.
majority normally comes from power source and producing the things...
Though they do tend to have atleast a 30 year lifespan, if they end up staying around....
The idea of traveling from the north to Europe would be a dream. Flying is such a faff. It does feel like London is the only thing that matters for infrastructure. Every national museum, stadium. HS2 reminds me of the 80’s with the big cities other than London are left to decay. The revamp over the last few decades in the north has pretty much wholly come from abroad. HS2 has turned out to really benefit London again, less line congestion and a shinny new Euston.
You might as well ask why the District Line isn't joined to the Central Line, so that passengers can go from Richmond to Epping without changing trains!
Thank you for a well considered explanation young Jago. I'd have summarised it by saying that our civil servants and politicians are car-centric myopic penny pinchers who have someone to heave their luggage and children around, in that order.
One of the reasons for upgrading the top section of the North London Line from 750v D/C third rail to A/C overhead was with future Eurostar use in mind, but that was shelved.
Where did you get that idea from, No future Eurostar services have ever been planned to operate on the WCML
@@peterwilliamallen1063Yes they have. The Regional Eurostar sets that were planned to operate through services from the North to mainland Europe.
@@mofomat I said " No future Eurostar Trains are planned to Operate on the WCML", they were planned and tried in the early 2000's but did not fit into stations on the WCML due to their lenghth, they were then hired by LNER for use on the ECML, this did not work out so they went back to France and operated between Paris and Brussel's for SNCF on their regional service and I do believe they have been retired now from service and may have returned to the UK for scrapping.
@@peterwilliamallen1063 The trains you’re referring to are the “Regional” Eurostar sets, which were originally built to operate on the ECML and WCML in the mid-1990s. They were slightly shorter than the “three capital” sets that operated between London, Paris, and Brussels. They were planned to operate from Edinburgh and Manchester to mainland Europe. However, these services were scrapped before they began. It is these services that the person you replied to was referring to. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_373#
@@peterwilliamallen1063 Where do you think they got the trains from that you say were tested on the WCML in the early 2000s?! It was the original 14-coach Regional Eurostar stock that was built for the planned services in the mid-1990s!
There was an additional proposal to put the HS2 London station in a tunnel beneath Euston St. Pancras as a through station. Apart from providing the better utilization of through rather than terminal platforms, this would have enabled a trans London inter regional service, ie extend the HS1 domestics westwards. This would increase the chance of success as it would be seen as benefitting London rather than just "Oop North"
Hopefully there's now the possibility of a future inverted U-shaped link between Euston & St Pancras, or even a station straddling them both
In theory, building the lines to continental gauge would have increased passenger capacity, and allowed the possibility of reducing the queues of lorries in Kent. At some point, there won't be the fuel for air travel, unless they design electric planes, or ones that run on cooking oil. The same applies to diesel ships and trucks. We need to plan ahead.
Happy lunar new year.
The fact that Birmingham Curzon station is now going to handle much less traffic than thought, surely it makes sense to add a separated international platform and facilities? Also Stratford international station has all the infrastructure and space for international services but currently has none. So a link, with a train running from Birmingham to Paris, stopping at Stratford would tick two decent boxes. Even better if it was also opened to companies other than Eurostar, just to add a bit of competition.
Who has said that Birmingham Curzon Street is going to operate less trains than they thought, utter rubbish as all trains from Birmingham to London and the North will run from Curzon street not Birmingham New Street, plus there is no call for European services from Birmingham when there is a perfectly adequat airport at Birmingham for such services
Yes, and there is 3 perfectly good airports serving London, and yet a large amount of people use the train to get to Paris and Brussels. If you want people to stop using planes, you need a viable alternative, and a high speed train gives that option.
@@Flange-lw9sp Sorry not from Birmingham and Manchester to Europe, it is quicker by Air full stop
We live 20 minutes from Stansted airport, so can also do it quicker, and cheaper by plane, but that means sitting in an airport full of stag and hen groups and then flying Ryanair, so that’s why we get the train. Much more civilised.😂
I wonder how the lack of space for enough biometric gates at St Pancras to cope with current usage affects the calculations on having a second London terminus for Eurostar trains.
i do wonder if there was ever the consideration of linking up the 2 high speed lines but bipassing St pancras and going from old oak common straight to stratford....
Good job illuminating what seemed a rather obvious subject, Jago. Q how does 1 get 3 screaming kids in 2 suitcases...?
Maybe they weren't screaming before they were put in the suitcases?
I sometimes think about an alternate universe in which the UK was part of the Schengen area and HS1 and HS2 are connected via a new _through_ station somewhere in central London. A through station would mean hourly trains from Birmingham/Manchester/Leeds/etc to the continent, since the terminating services could just be joined together. Schengen membership would mean these trains could serve any station in the country with no need for passport controls. If only!
The main barrier isn't the border controls, it's the security requirements for the Channel Tunnel
Never this early! Love your videos!
Jago, how much do you spend a week/month/year on train travel?
The current "pedestrian link" between the London stations is certainly an interesting one 😳
The St Pancras Eurostar terminal can be a claustrophobic nightmare with even the slightest incident or delay. Much more needs to be done before handling passenger transfers from HS2.
I'm just waiting for all of High Speed 2 to be cancelled - despite all the money that's been spenr and all the works being undertaken. Such is the way with any major infrastructure projects we undertake here in the UK 🤔.
Still hoping and praying it will be. It was a gigantic mistake to ever approve it.
Great video, my own opinion is that should they have done it, they should’ve linked it in an away from London direction
Finally!
That's all I'm saying about this video. I've always wondered.
I've always thought a link from Old Oak Common to Stratford International bypassing the London termini completely would have been best, enabling direct rail access to the continent.
Flight times may be quick but you have to get to the airports some 2/3 hours before departure and of course the time to get to the airport aswell
Not to mention at that stage they still envisaged Crossrail 2 which would've been the defacto interchange I.e. King's Cross St Pancras Euston International
Is it still the same in Paris? In '08 I went to Slovakia, Eurostar to Paris Gare du Nord, walk to Gare d'est then TGV to Munich. C'est la Gare.
Nice video, shame it got cancelled like other parts of HS2.
Yes, pls keep the HS2 vids coming 👍
The best bet for connecting them now is for the proposed Crossrail 2 station to fill the gap and have a travelator in a concourse between them.
When living in a failed state your transport doesn't make much sense, hence Melbourne having no airport rail link and the situation of HS1 and 2.