Channel Update: Follow-up to the Ventnor Railway Video
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2024
- Big thank you for your comments on the recent 'Why Ventnor Needs A Railway' video on the channel, this video discusses a few after thoughts.
#wightwanderer #ventnor #restore #railway #line #isleofwight #iow #wight #history #islandline
Behind you all the way, for the Railway into Ventnor. Would be a great idea. Good luck!!
Thank you for the encouragement. All the best 🙂👍
Excellent follow-up on a tricky and emotive subject 👍
Huge error of judgement shutting the line to Ventnor in the first place . Complete and utter lack of foresight. Well done for raising the issue again, now very pertinent indeed.
It certainly was. Thanks for your comment and support 🙂👍
Michael Portillo used to ride the train to Ventnor for many years as a child. He has fond memories of it. He is a railway fanatic. It might be a good idea to get him on board.
From first hand experience, I can tell you he doesn't "do" campaigns coming close to contentious. Now if it were the IWSR looking to head for Whippingham (but not St.Johns Road!), you'd likely be in with a good shout.
Your right.I use to ride into Ventnor by train when ever we came over to the Island.
Great memories I hope 🙂👍
I agree with you 100%, but unfortunately I'm short of the most important attribute: the position of influence. You would need to have powerful, dedicated and very persuasive people on board. Let's hope you can get them!
Thank you for both videos and good luck!
Sounds like a good camapign under way. It would be great to see the line restored, and not just to Ventnor. "We shall fight them on the Beechings"!
Great quote! Is that an original? 👌 thank you for your comment 🙂👍
@@WightWanderer Original, I'm Afraid to quote!
How about converting the whole IoW railway to a tram system? Distances are not huge, and convenience could be increased by constructing more tram stops. Think of tram systems such as Croydon or Manchester. Tram lines can have tighter curves and steeper gradients than heavy rail systems because the maximum design speeds are lower, the vehicles need less mass per passenger and there's no need to accommodate freight trains. Tram lines can be single or double track, and where space is tight tram lines can be co-located with roads carrying normal road vehicles. The construction investment required by tram routes is significantly lower than for heavy rail, but service frequency can be higher for any given passenger volume.
Which you would do around Newport
A tram system is definitely a potential solution. I'm not sure if the council would be able to fund the reinstatement of the entire network. But for the Ventnor Line it certainly is possible. The crossover between the current island line and the tram at Shanklin could be timed (better than the ferries any way) with eachother. Thanks for your comment 🙂👍
its possibly less complex than that - integration is key. I would love to park and ride in southampton and get a train from cowes to ventnor as i would prefer not to faff with a car - where effective public transport comes in people are happy to change - Tram means you can share roads in Newport and Cowes - happy to discuss remembering council will always look for goldplated options
@@WightWanderer
Maybe for another disused IoW route, as the problem with converting the Ventnor one would be lack of space to accomdate trams if they're running on the road too and also the steep grades
An absolutely fantastic idea, with one flaw. The reason for using ex London Underground rolling stock is the loading gauge due to the limited clearance in Ryde tunnel. It wouldn't be a case of buying a turn key tram as one with a lower roof would need to be built, and then the cost of buying and maintaining rolling stock is far higher than just recycling old Underground stock
Clearly something urgently needs to be done about the transport corridor - the enormity & scale of the landslide & instability of the ground in the area demands some fresh lateral & creative thinking. All potential solutions needs analysing.
The old trackbed/route, bridges, & tunnel still.
As it was built as a single track line with a couple of passing loops at stations it could not realistically be rebuilt as a two way road - the engineering/ costs would be prohibitive, especially as a second tunnel would be required.
Rebuild the line with a modern station's & use a lightweight electric shuttle bus to connect Ventnor town area directly with the station.
A new Ventnor station would take a fraction of the former railway land footprint as there's no freight requirement. A two 'face' island platform could provide for an even more intense 'metro' style service capacity = future proofing.
Also, any alternative road solution would be significantly dearer & require expensive & hugely impactful land & property purchase.
As elsewhere in the UK, what a criminal wasted opportunity that the old trackbeds were not protected for potential future use aa is done in Europe. Germany recently announced 93 - yes 93 - former railway routes are going to be reinstated!!
Hello, thank you for your comment and sorry for the late reply.
You have pretty much hit the nail on the head there, Ventnor Station itself could be modeled on a small halt like Lake for example, no run around loop would be needed due to the nature of multiple units that the island line now uses. A simple single track emerging from the tunnel with enough platform to host a 4 coach unit is all that is needed, with a simple 1 bus shuttle service to the town which could easily connect with every 30 minute train service, furthermore the bus service itself would not have to rely on either of the main roads in and out of Ventnor that have been deemed unstable, only depending on the route from the town up to the station itself.
Thank you for your comment once again and all the best 🙂👍
I have a copy of "The great Isle of Wight train robbery" which proves that British Railways stooped to deception and lies to show that the section of railway between Shanklin and Ventnor could not be viable and would therefore not be electrified along with the rest of the line in 1967. As for the idea of a road tunnel, unfortunately, motor vehicle drivers could not be subject to the discipline of single line working! A second bore would have to be made. And of course, the chalk is far more stable than the strata lower down. Peter, ex B.R.Southern Guard.
BR's malign recording of 'loss' to ensure lines were closed was well known and unfortunately the government in the 1960s were seemingly happy to accept their 'false' accounting even though they also indicated their wish for lines to reman open. Unbelievable when you reflect back in history to this pivotal moment in railway history.
Wasn't alot of the beeching reports down to over exagerations and biased, poor reporting? Beeching wasn't even qualified for the position yet was appointed to do the report, which I bet had far more politicians deeply involved with it's creation
Hi Peter could you please tell me where I can get a copy of that book ? Looked online but it seems to be obsolete or out of stock.Richard 👍👍
Yes it is prob. out of print. Have you tried W.L.S. at Isle of Wight Steam Railway, or these two Railway book specialists - Robert Humm of Stamford or Andrew Neale of Leicester. ?
Thanks Pete looks like Robert humm doesn’t have it and I’ve emailed Andrew neal so I’ll let you know 👍👍
The weakness of the original IWR station was it's location, high above the town. Were it to be reopened, that significant issue would remain. Who would get on a Shanklin or Ryde bound bus, only to jump off for the train at the top of the hill?
The other IWC station, Ventnor West, connected to Newport/Cowes via Godshill* and Merstone and lay too far west of the centre, with the route lost to development, thus isn't a viable candidate for reinstatement. The Sandown - Merstone - Newport line was always prone to flooding (indeed, part of it has been subsumed within a floodwater control scheme), therefore without major investment, reopening is now not an option
IMO, the Shanklin-Ventnor line ought not to have closed (nor Ryde - Newport - Cowes ), but having done so well over half a century ago, would take far too much investment to reopen a sub-optimal transport solution.
It's noticable that the only surviving line was the only one providing interchange with the ferry and hovercraft. Cowes Station was sited atop a hill, followed by a long flight of steps and Yarmouth Station was on the opposite side of the village. Fishbourne never enjoyed a rail connection.
To be practical, any suggestion for rail transport on The Island would need to form part of a wider, comprehensive transport review.
*well, Godshill Station, at any rate!
Thank you for the info. Yes the location is problematic to some degree, though half the distance that Sandown is to its town center it is a bit of a slog uphill. A separate bus service perhaps operated by the railway company themselves between the town and the station could be a possibility as it would not have to rely on any of the (troubled) roads in and out of town. Anyway, it's a long shot. Thank you for your comment and all the best 🙂👍
There's a long hill from Okehampton town centre up to the popular Okehampton station. So I don't think this is such a big issue. Okehampton Interchange (revised name) will be built and opened in a few years - not because of the hill, but to serve a new development on the east side of the town, and for people driving to and from Launceston, Bude and Holsworthy.
Keep up the good work!
Thank you! 🙂👍
The railway tunnel can be pretty simply reinstated as it is (obviously retracked). To make it into a roaf tunnel, it would need reboring to accommodate two road lanes, an escape pathway, fireproofing and forced ventilation. You might as well just build a brand new tunnel.
Hi thanks for your comment! Absolutely agree, the concept of it being reinstated as a railway is far more logical than as a road tunnel. 🙂👍
Not only more logical, but in real terms more practical. @@WightWanderer
There seem to have been a number of vested intererests responsible for the original closure. Also a number of deliberate blockages on the old route. But as we have seen with HS2, chuck enough wedge at something ...et voila!
If....very big if...those in power were serious about sorting the crumbling road infrastructure on this island, you would think Number 1 would be to look at railways?
Newport to Ryde...Ryde to Ventnor...and then a southbound chord near Brading..to allow Newport to Ventnor.
That would allow all the relative tourist areas to be accessed by train.
Who would lose out...Southern Vectis and council car parking.
Thank you for your comment. It does seem like an obvious answer, or atleast using the trackbed as some kind of tram/guided bus system.
Better connections certainly means more tourism thus better economy. Either way we need a solution, hopefully not too late. 🙂👍
One of the biggest issues as mentioned by others is the rather inconvenient location of Ventnor station. I don't think trams would be able to cope with the gradients between the station and the town centre. Once that's solved, then it would certainly be a great idea to reopen a train service again. There's an equally compelling case for reopening the line between Okehampton and Beer Alston for similar reasons, the sea wall at Dawlish and the increasingly extreme weather conditions. Good to keep up the pressure anyway!
Hi thank you for your comment! Absolutely the location would be an issue. Even though it is half the distance that Sandown is from its own town center, the incline is mega steep. I propose a shuttle bus service between the station and the town, the journey would only be 5 mins each way which means 1 bus would be able to sync up with each 30min train service with time to spare. The bus would also not need to rely on the main roads in and out of Ventnor which are currently closed or in danger of closing. How realistic that is I don't know, but I don't see how it couldn't work.
You are right with Dawlish as well, it is definitely a loosing struggle with the elements and thus an alternative rail route is needed 🙂👍
Bus shuttle to the station from the town doing a loop service could solve that issue
There seems to be worsening issues for much of the coast on the southern side of the island, I think it was a fortnight after the landslide in Bonchurch there was one by military road near freshwater bay which has closed the footpath next to the road, every time there's heavy and sustained rain a bit of the coastline is at risk and there's a met office warning for heavy rain over the next couple of days
It is a shame, certainly mother nature waits for no man. It falls to us to try and keep up or loose our coastal towns/villages. Thank you for commenting 🙂👍
A vennicular railway up and over the chalk hill making a fantastic scenic opportunity for future tourism benefits for all who travel in and out of Ventnor.
This could possibly be a longterm solution, once again though would envolve relying on the Gault Clay service as a support. Perhaps though in the meantime a short shuttle bus service between the station and the town could be the solution, seeing as 1 bus could easily connect with each 30 minute train service. A vernacular railway though would be a thing of beauty, thank you for your comment and all the best 🙂👍
Looking at Google earth, a funicular railway would become an engineering nightmare and the dairy farmer out of of town wouldn't like the idea of the raised track running across those fields to wroxham? Even if it was modelled on the Cairngorms' design in some way. Yet there's that area just to the left of Station Road, would make the ideal perfect location to the Ventnor Funicular. If the land was carved out and a station built on stilts. So raising the gradient elevation at the Ventnor end, which could help the construction and keeping the track more of an incline railway using steel rope cables. All the problems with the Cairngorm system would have been ironed out about now, so making the proposal more workable.
I read that the old railway tunnel to Ventnor now contains a water main and sewage pipe, which would be expensive to re-route.
What was used before 1967? Could be rerouted far more easily and done on cheap when railway closed
I doubt that it could be rerouted, if it was to be rerouted who would pay for it? Also Southern Water may own the tunnel, or lease it or have a permanent easement to have their apparatus in it for in perpetuity, depending on what is detailed in the legal agreement. Also what is not known and videos show this is that that same water main is buried under the existing track bed from Shanklin to the North Tunnel portal. There are plenty of man hole covers, (which I assume are inspection pits) along the old railway line route. Again this arrangement may be a permanent easement for the water pipe to be there in perpetuity. The decision rests with the Water Board, who need to consider if they will allow (a) track to be laid on top of their water main, and (b) permit track to be laid in the tunnel and allow trains to run in it adjacent to their water main and sewage pipe.
Restoring the line to Ventnor has been considered many times by the IOW council. It is a non-starter as a government project. However, it stands a chance as a heritage line. You have already got the preserved tube train at Havenstreet! The main element of the cost is the track. The existence of old earthworks does not significantly reduce the cost. Re-engineering the route along a new alignment would not be more expensive than re-instating the old formation. What you've got to do is organise a meeting in a pub with a view to creating a Ventnor Heritage Railway Society. The initial aim would be to gain control of a length of track bed. And take it from there! Thanks for uploading.
How about a RORO ferry from Shanklin to Ventnor? (Sadly I have to explain that this is not a serious suggestion.)
Unfortunately, any infrastucture discussion reverts to cost of construction or re-construction, and then the cost of operating and maintaining.
It is such a shame that government wastes so much on nonsense and corrupt enterprises.
It certainly is a shame. Thank you though for your comment 👍
What is your solution to the problem of how to bring the passengers from Ventnor station to and back from the centre of Ventnor? - History shows that the steep hill was an obstacle and reason for the Ventnor West station. The tunnel for Ventnor West is also still there and without any current use. I personally would love a train connection to Ventnor. Best wishes from Martin
Hi thank you for your comment. I would perhaps say a bus service run by the railway company themselves linking the station to the town, this would only have to be run by 1 bus as the journey would only be 5 minutes each direction therefor 1 bus could link up with every 30 train service with time to spare. Also, a bus service from the town to the station would not have to rely on any of the road sections that are currently in danger of colapse. In an ideal world that would be it, but of coarse its not up to me. Thanks again for your comment and all the best 🙂👍
@@WightWanderer Thank you for your kind reply 🙂 I love the pictures / movies/ models of the old station in the former quarry.
@@WightWanderer Are any plans known for what is going to happen to the closed road past the smugglers haven café?
@@user-dc4kw9lr3o Still an ongoing discussion at the moment, there have been many concerns raised especially as the situation is getting worse quickly. Unfortunately issues now with the current train service we have on the island has come to light so perhaps a full overhaul and extention is needed. But we will keep up the momentum as much as possible! Many thanks for your comment and all the best to you 😊👍
Great idea but you have got a problem,which is that, wroxall station and area has been built on with houses plus ventor Station is now a industrial site, what happens to them but again something needs to be done soon
I don't live on the IOW but am an occasional visitor so watched the videos with interest. There is certainly more interest in reopening lines now than there ever was. I would have thought you would need the support of the Islands MP. Have you any ideal on what his views are? I would have thought any hope of getting Government money you would have to have him on side, or his successor depending on the outcome of the upcoming election?
Miss your face Jack :)
You too! Hope you are well! 😊
I've been thinking about this a lot, and the best idea, I think, is a large carousel on the top of Ventnor Downs with very long arms and you go to Shanklin as it rotates along the coast line, and come back on the other side. The only thing I haven't quite worked out is how you get on and off the chairs.
is there a group dedicated to make this happen ?
We need to persuade the Saudis that 'Railway Washing' is even more lucrative than 'Sports Washing'. The railway would be running through to Ventnor again before the decade was out!
Will the tunnel accommodate the current rolling stock?
Is there a viable freight only (rail or road) use for the tunnel?
Are there additional safety features needed if the tunnel is converted to road use?
I assume the tunnel is only wide enough for one way road use.
The additional weight of electric vehicles causes extra wear on roads.
The tunnel has the Ventnor main water pipe running down one side and the sewage return pipe on the other side. Both are owned by Southern Water and there probably exists a legal agreement for them to use the tunnel, in the form of a lease, or a permanent easement for in perpetuity, or they may own the tunnel outright. Either way Southern Water need to be consulted over this.
Good extra vid'.
OK - TO KEEP IT SIMPLE FROM MY PERSPECTIVE:
ALL - YES ALL - the Civil Engineering aspects & obstacles are "overcomable". Sadly, Wroxall people, though, aren't.
2nd: Reinstatement of the railway to Ventnor issue must be TOTALLY DETACHED from Local Government as far as possible. Like HS2, this is a CENTRAL Government & their Civil Service brainpower issue.
Any feasible timetable for train-pathing would require a passing loop at Wroxall.
NEXT:
After running into Ventnor station in a former District Line train, there needs to be a quick & modern means of transportation for passengers to town centre & new Pier Jetty (or to the Winter Gardens site at the very least).
A Pier Jetty needs to be constructed at minimal cost for a relatively cheap Hoverport facility for onward travel of passengers from Island to French coast. (This is another reason for requirement of passing loop at Wroxall).
MANDATORY CONSIDERATIONS:
Further replacement of rolling stock for additional capacity (Inc. fleet size).
Feasibility Study to be drafted, finalised & agreed; then put out to Tender quickly on (at least) accurate market projections & returns.
Liaison with Ventnor Town Council & Residents re: positive impact / Cost Benefit & SWOT Analysis / Coping Strategies / acceptance, + other impact assessments ONLY (but not for Wroxall).
(More to follow if needed).
There is a far cheaper method of getting transport to Ventnor using the track bed, and in compliance with 'greenish' wishes.
Only a Temp solution will be carried out. If moving sections of the Military Road, is going to cost 20 Million Plus, how much will the Council be willing to pay. They have just put up the School Transport, by £400 plus, in some cases and have carried out cuts in the Services, as they are short of Money, so they wont be able to fund a new Road.
Ventnor people are not going to give up there cars and trucks for a train
If the roads are not usable, or passable, then what will they do then, a new road tunnel under Boniface down ? how much damage will that do,
People may have to reduce car use on the back of general government policy. A bit of financial creativity may also be helpful
We use the old rail track every week on our mobility scooters to go to the donkey sanctuary so please dont reopen it.