Automation in Game Design
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2023
- The new crafter is cool, but... it's not the best.
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Footage from trailers and updates of each game mentioned respectively, used under fair use rights while discussing each game:
Minecraft live:
• Minecraft Live 2023
Factorio:
• Factorio - Trailer 2020
Satisfactory:
• Satisfactory Early Acc...
• Satisfactory Reveal Ga...
The Create Mod:
• This is Create. (2022)
Create: Above and Beyond modpack:
• This is Create: Above ...
Ilmangos video showcasing a slime farm in peaceful mode:
• Peaceful Challenge #8:...
Music:
"Sunny" By RA
License code: XB8EJCFIEJEESVOT
"No Pain No Gain" By Qube
License code: 6DYE1VFSMPPDA8CI
"Complications" By AK
License code: IDPEUL8EH2TYVVFV
"Endless Journey" By Nick Petrov
License code: OAXDSJQIPNTEWGHV
"Sweden" By C418
Music from Minecraft used under fair use rights while discussing Minecraft. 
Развлечения
I mostly just wanted to make a video talking about how great the Create Mod is, but then it just so happened the new update was announced and the subject just fit in perfectly, so for once I've made a video that's sorta relevant instead of 5 years too late. lol
I understand why after coming from Create you'd think that the Crafter block is very meh. But I believe that it fits very well in Minecraft because of one reason: Accessibility. If they implemented something Create-style for autocrafting, the skill floor would probably be too high for anyone to use and the system would be used by an even smaller amount of players.
Even understanding redstone is a tall task for some players. And if those players who are interested in autocrafting are met with a complex system they need to learn, they would give up.
I agree. Don't get me wrong, I think the auto crafter is a fine addition to minecraft, and fits very well. :)
Resource acquisition is already pretty absurd
Redstone is basically engineering, so it's not simple by the definition. Crafter is useless for simple tasks and to make it useful you need to learn a complex system. Minecraft's philosophy is "one block - one action", but many uses. That's why redstone is so complicated. Copper bulb could be more valuable than crafter if you want to understand how complicated redstone is
i prefer the autocrafting carpet's system over create and the vanilla one. It actually requires you to plan complicated inputs instead of just delivering the items
@@filmamundo9194 hard to compare cuz redstone is logic powered and create is force powered. Complicated way to use infinite energy or much simpler and effective way to use limited/weak fuel source. Aka create is more about distributing force and redstone is more about planning an algorithm. Both are good and well balanced in my opinion
the create mod is by far my favorite mod for minecraft; it's just amazing in every aspect lol
Same, I enjoy trying out mod packs, and I'm always disappointed when one doesn't include the create mod. lol
Now I get why create was such a revolutionnary mod compared to the more "classical" automation and technology mods. Instead of having a dedicated block, with a dedicated function, for a dedicated action, it allows you to play a lot more freely with contraptions. Instead of having a simple a + b = c, you have to be mindful of a lot of elements, yet have a lot of ways to use a single item/block
Don't get me wrong, I love the old mods such as thermal, ender IO, mekanism, etc, but I feel like they are a completely different kind of mod compared to create and I finally get why
Also it could be noted that these mods have different kind of complexity. While create is complex because you have to be very mindful of your contraptions, which become real rube goldberg machine sometime, The less vanilla centered mods get complex because of their various quirks, gigantic numbers of setting, and the occasional need for workaround when you try to automate unusual things (mainly when trying to do cross-mod automations and/or interconnected storage/crafting systems)
thank you. this video perfectly describes why I love the Create mod so much.
definitely my favorite Minecraft mod, and this is now one of my favorite videos on it too!
Thanks! I'm happy to hear that. :D
i think the biggest problem of Create is the expenditure category, unless you are in a expert modpack there isnt much incentive to use all the mechanics and its uses in the best way.
I think the best mod in this regard is gregtech, every material, machine and alloy seems like a huge progression and unlocks new ways to make past production lines more efficient and deal with the problems that emerge with each energy tier
This is why I love the Create: Above and Beyond challenge modpack. For me it has that nice element of progression, with a little less of the grind and hardcore nature that some gregtech packs have. Though the satisfaction in accomplishing something in a gregtech modpack is on its own level for sure. :)
@@Artindi You may then also enjoy Create: Arcane Engineering modpack. I played both of them, and imo, C:AE does a much better job at automation look'n'feel than what C:A&B provides, while still using Create is roughly the same way, as the main focus of the pack.
Unless we're talking about GT:NH. Each progression feels like like a tiny step, but it's still a step forward
Honestly, most modpacks struggle with the expenditure category. Basically every mass-produced expert modpack ends with "make 10,000 of each item and turn them into singularities to gain creative mode." Not only is it boring, since it encourages AFKing, but the "reward" of creative items just means that all your factories you built are useless.
i'm a dude who avoids minecraft news until i finish exploring the update so i haven't really seen anything about minecraft for what feels like more than a year now
safe to say that idk how the autocrafter works but the sprites honestly looks like some sort of edit i or any mod would create for an autocrafter block
with the one in create you showed looking a bit too complex and polished to be in vanilla but still looking far cooler at least
Yeah that was what I was thinking when I first saw it too, that it kind of looked like a mod sprite wise, took me playing with it myself to start to feel like it belonged. :)
@@Artindi i honestly don't get how that sprite passed xD
it feels like it's breaking mojang's no content from mods rule with how similar it is
tho also it looks so much like a mod because that sprite is the most intuitive way for an automated crafting table to look
@@nesraspongx58 I kinda think the no content from mods rule is really stupid, it's just going to limit them as people take all the good ideas with mods. Besides, early Minecraft had updates based on mods, I can't remember which ones but I want to say Ender pearls teleporting you when you threw them was one of them, and possibly the nether as well. It's just a dumb rule to have because there are so many mods that really improve Minecraft in a way that feels like Minecraft, such a shame.
@@Artindi
just one word
pistons came from a mod (if i remember correctly)
wait that's like 4 or 5
so yeah, i am with ya, why the heck do they even have that rule, it's not even that they take the best ideas only, if there are great ideas people don't know about it's not as much of a problem, but mods make people excited and wish they could see these implemented into the game with as much budget and effort as the rest of it, and minecraft is proud of showing itself as the game of the people, so why don't you give the people what they want so god damned much that they went ahead and got years of experience in programming sound design and graphic design just to make ???
@@Artindi
pistons and horses were created by modders and notch basically just asked permission to add them into the game with no adjustments
A potential 6th automation category exists: Recombination, where instead of getting a single type of output, the process returns multiple types of items, requiring you to handle each of them to prevent the system clogging with whatever means the game gives to you
I love Create so much. Easily my favorite Minecraft mod of all time!
Same! Sometimes it's hard to play a Modpack without it. :)
Pretty good video, i agree with a lot of points, but at the same time i feel like both of the styles of automation should be regarded as unique, Their own goals within the game and settings are so different, in minecraft, you automate things that are already in the world with create, they have their own purpose in themselves without any ties to the factory normally, its by installing the mod that you make those resources part of it, and thats really fun. On the other hand, factorio and satisfactory are two games where items and resources are entirely about the factory, Uranium and steel in name alone will let you know that they are made for machine interaction from their very creation into the game. And this is not bad, but it's really two different types of the same Automation Genre, and its possible that one can be more pleasant for some than others.
In my personal opinion, i also enjoy create more, mods for games that add automation has always been my kind of jam, the idea that "this task is tedious and grindy, imagine if i could automate it" is often on my mind when playing new games, because i just love that kind of content so much, even if its just a bit.
(i hope this comment didn't sound too mean, i don't mean to say "hey you should think of it this way!" but more "i like to think of it like that, i hope you get what i mean")
Great comment. :) And no worries, I like when people share their oppionions and perspectives especially if they are different or add to the conversation, it can help me think through my own views more. Thanks! :)
Haha thanks, i love little video essays like the one you made, and your other videos are very entertaining aswell, i hope you get more recognition for your work!
I think a big part of what made create so special is specifically its background. Minecraft modding has been a tradition as long as the game itself, and automation/kitchen sink modpacks have been pretty notorious of implementing 4 or more mods that do practically the same thing at varying levels of usefulness. One of the biggest issues with this is that a good 80% of mods really had little to no real redstone compatability, which makes an interesting mod like computercraft turn into an overly complicated method to do the same thing as a super smelter or electric furnace.
Create came into 1.18 after 10 years of your choice being "insert automation modpack where your options are essentially thermal expansion, this hyper expensive and overpowered other mod, some useless magic mod for fluff, and the literal clickbait 20x20 crafting grids you saw in youtube thumbnails requiring every item in the game" and then "gregtech" which is pretty well designed for what it is but you only have to play the first hour of Nomifactory(known as one of the easiest gregtech packs) to realize that its not for everyone. Create basically said "what if we took the aesthetics of immersive engineering, known for its very steampunk style and detailed models, and integrated it further into the vanilla game" and came out with a masterpiece that became the backbone of its entire own genre of modpack based purely off its specific identity.
Another thing about create that makes it pretty unique from the other two games is that minecraft is built for modularity. And multiblock support has been in forge and fabric for so long its basically a formality, so instead of having to create an entire inventory system from the ground up, they had an entire framework to build off of thats easy to communicate because... well... its minecraft, everyone knows what a faster furnace means and so making a hypersmelter a fair bit more complicated is a lot less of a huge loss compared to if you had to make smelting in factorio a 10 step process(play factorio angels mod and you will know exactly what i mean).
The crafter on its own isnt really that bad of an addition however. because its working in the context of a system that mojang has a clear love hate relationship with. If anything the only reason the crafter was added to the game is that enough redstone youtubers basically created their own version of the same implementation 5 separate times and all agreed it was balanced.
What I dont like in create mod Is that it trivialise some problems. For example instead of designing a vanilla smelter where you need to care about a lot of stuff like fuel supply, timings, distribution of fuel and resource etc. and in create you can just drop arbitrary amount of items in front of a fan powered by an infinite power source. Sequenced gearshift is another example of a component that replaces thinking. I would also argue that vanilla acquisition is much more creative too.
I still agree with the points that create is better than some games because it gives you components, not whole machines but for the same reason I prefer vanilla redstone and farming more than create. I honestly believe that the crafter has a really good implementation being viable for both experienced and inexperienced, since it's intuitive but allows is powerful. You can even have a contraption that can craft anything inside 1 crafter.
i appreciate your clear explainations and your logic TY
I appreciate your kind comment. TY :D
Did I just watch an 8 minute long ad for the Create mod?
Yes. Yes you did. ;)
reason why autocrafter is so simple is probably that that skill floor of base game needs to be low enough that even kids can figure it out. Create mod has similar style as base minecraft but minimal skill level to make use of its features is that of a redstone user not a complate noob. In community which half cant figure out how comparator works more complicated features would go unused by large portion of players. I too was surprised by how easy was autocrafter but at the same time I was kinda surprised that it wasnt even easier because I know that there are people who wont be able to figure out how to autocraft anything more complicated than iron block. Thats why I thought that autocrafting will never be a thing in vanilla minecraft, because difficulty that I think would be appropriate for so usefull thing is much higher than what devs would be willing to add to game that is supposed to be suitable for children
A vary valid point! :)
Tbh, it's so simple, that it is actually way too hard to use for anyone without at least some fine knowledge about redstone and stuff like timing
I dont think its fair to compare the three games since even with the automation in Create its still a very different game then Satisfactory or Factorio. In Create there is nothing restricting you on how much or where you get your items since you decide the entire acquisition process. The customizability of Minecraft would not work for Factorio and Satisfactory since they are more about the logistics of transporting items to different individual factories across the world which you are incentivised to build because the resources are seperated in your world. Create is still more of a sandbox then a straight up automation game since everything is up to the player if, how or where they want to build something using the large amount of mechanics and items available in Minecraft.
You are not wrong, and I think that is the point I was making, all three games are sandbox games, when mostly comparing just that aspect, Create gives more freedom to the player to do as they wish. Don't get me wrong though, I love all three games, but yes any comparison will be difficult to make, even a comparison between just Factorio and Satisfatory would be hard because, although similar, they are still very distinct from each other. Thanks for the great comment! :)
great video as always
Thanks! :D
Good video, and it includes the Create mod, so great video. I like.
any mod pack with the create mod is better! perhaps any video with the create mod is better too? :)
yeah this sums up my thoughts on the autocrafter pretty well
however you praised create and that's a little ermmm awkward
good video
Unsure, why this isn’t more popular. Good vid, specific points could have been said not as many times. But still good vid
I guess I was just really trying to stress the point, maybe I stressed it too much... lol. :)
You need to raise that bitrate my boy, looks like 480p on my 4k
Lol. I'll give it a shot. But yeah, it's ment for 1080p, and I always wondered how it would look in 4k, never hurts to go for something bigger. :)
It's funny that you skipped the "expenditure" part when talking about create because that's the main problem with it. There is no point in automating almost anything.
In factorio and (I at least assume, haven't played it) satisfactory all the automation you build serves some purpose, such as to automate things that would be a hassle and/or a complete drag to do by hand because in those games you need a constant supply of a massive amount of resources.
When I played create the main issues I encountered again and again were that every single thing I've built took way more time to set up than any time it saved by automating it, and almost every thing I did automate lost it's purpose a few hours later because I had no use for the sheer amount of resources it produced.
Looks awesome in videos, completely impractical and a bit pointless in the game itself. Designing your own approach to automation is fun but it'd be more fun if there was an actual reason to do it.
I agree, Create by itself added to minecraft is just another component in a sandbox game, but when a goal is added it does become really quite amazing. There are mod packs centered around the Create Mod one in particular adds objectives and even a main automation quest.
Create: Above and Beyond, is one of the funnest automation games I've ever played. And it does provide that automation objective that base minecraft lacks. If you ever want to check it out. :)
(By the way it's on the more difficult side of automation games.)
Thanks for the great comment! :D
I feel like mods are almost integral to minecraft at this point. Minecraft is a true sandbox, play how you want, and there's no better way to do that than to mod it. However, minecraft also needs to be simple and accessible, its one of the reasons why its one of the biggest games of all time. Its popular among all ages because it's easy to understand and get into. It does have some complexity with redstone, and redstone engineers can accomplish some crazy things, but you can also use it to just make an easy way to open a door. From there you might decide to experiment and get fancy and make your first piston door. Or you might not. But many people probably wouldn't have tried were it not for redstone being simple to understand, but hard to master.
I feel like updates such as the auto-crafter are perfect because it adds another layer to the game for people who want to use it while not being strictly necessary to the game loop itself and it's simple enough for anyone to understand. I'm sure some redstone engineers out there will find incredible uses for it that others won't have thought of, but it could also bring up the topic of mods, specifically the Create mod and act as a way for people to get into that.
shit you had a really good opporitunity to give the exact same plot for both games satisfactory and factorio.
There's one thing I very much miss when it comes to Create that I would call 'Sustainability'. Having played the old school tech mods, or even Factorio, I really like the idea of these machines being codependent on each other in a tight loop of acquisition, alteration and power generation, with the latter missing from Create. To me it feels like an odd choice to have free energy in such a mechanical context.
Can you make a video on “how to fail at gameplay loops”
This is the first time I have ever heard of the Create Mod. Even I am impressed and I haven't played Minecraft in years.
it's pretty great. :) and if you're into factory games might be worth trying out the Create: Above and beyond mod pack as if it's its own game. (only downside is it doesn't have the trains but is otherwise quite a challenge.)
There is a video of a guy making a RAM chip in Minecraft. It's crazy how you can technically make a computer in Minecraft.
It will be interesting to see how the technical players use all the new mechanics being introduced. :)
I am trying to make an automation game like the minecraft mod Create called Blossom, but honestly for me the hard part is the early game. Its very hard to not stick to the very basic "machine takes in item and then you get it out" for the start of the game because you lack the tools or technology to do the basic crafting. And if the basic crafting is too difficult, how is anyone going to learn your game? The only reason Minecraft can get away with this is its base gameplay of mining/crafting is fun and full of features. So an automation layer on top of it can be as complex as you want as the player can always just mine and craft longer or skip it entirely.
I am eventually going to try to make a 3d automation voxel game using Creates design philosophies. But I don't expect to have the skills to do it for years and I have other projects I'm working on now with others. I fundamentally dislike how awful minecraft is as an engine for automation and hate how laggy the game is. Otherwise I would just make a mod. Every single mod pack I've played in Minecraft has not hit like Factorio has, its all vertical progression without mass spamming of machines to get more because the game can't handle it. I've played Gregtech based mod packs and played mod packs where Create is a large focus and neither hits the same feeling as "time to place 96 furnaces for my smelter array." Usually all on demand crafting due to the games limitations.
Create is cool but definitely doesnt fit vanilla minecraft.
Only has far as design principles go, Create follows vanilla's style. But yeah, you are correct, definitely not vanilla and changes the experience considerably. :)
@@Artindi Even with style it goes for its own creative liberties, particularly the shapes. It's too high-poly.
Honestly, I personally don't like Create. It simplifies power control and sequencing too much for my taste. The best example is that items on belts stop when something is done upon them. It would be much more interesting if you had to properly control your belts and stop them yourself.
On another note, I personally think that the crafter is a bit too simplified too. I'd rathrr have it so that you have to insert a spacer into a slot you want to keep free of items for recipes. Much more interesting.
That could make for a fun challenge. :)
The autocrafter in minecraft posed its own set of problems. You have to slot items in order and take away pieces that don't belong in the recipe, then activate it. The logistics of that seems like a fair enough challenge.
Create mod crafters are still cooler by all categories. It's just that vanilla doesn't actually have that many physically moving parts. Just the piston, in fact. The others just flip on and off.
Maybe I should give Factorio another try. I made very little progress on my first map :/
It's super fun! But for sure takes some brain power sometimes. And I bet it will be even more motivating to stick to it when they actually have the main story and objective in place with the 1.0 release, whenever that is.... :)
based, create mod is what makes minecraft worth it to me at this stage.
The way you talk in this video about the crafter makes it seem like to make it work, just put a funnel on top and bottom and it will work.
When I first heard that auto crafters were released I thought that the create auto crafters were better. Mainly because I felt that auto crafting should be reserved for after you have reached a certain milestone. And I liked that auto crafters in create required bronze, which required finding a nether fortress.
I didn't realize it until watching this video, but since I have seen people playing around with them and dabbled with them myself I have changed my mind. I think that the vanilla auto crafters are far superior to create's.
The difference between them is that create's auto crafters are smart, while the vanilla auto crafters are dumb.
The create auto crafters know when they should start crafting, and it is easier to let them know what they should be crafting. The vanilla crafters on the other hand have no idea if they even have items in them. You need a comparator just to know if it's full. This leads to much more nuanced setups.
My main critique of the create crafters is that whenever you need to use them it's basically the same each time. Just put them together, feed them items, and the power them with rotation. The vanilla auto crafters on the other hand require a different setup depending on the items recipe. If your crafting a Redstone block its as simple as having some sort of clock repeatedly power it, but if you are crafting a bamboo log you need to be careful not to accidentally craft sticks, so a more complicated setup is required. While there is a one size fits all setup with vanilla crafters, it is not necessary for many of the game's recipes and you need to not only know how to build different setups, but when to use them as well.
The vanilla auto crafters are even simple enough that they can be used for things besides crafting. Like a keypad interface for example.
While the create mod in general does a better job at automation, vanilla Minecraft still struggles with transportation and especially acquisition, I feel that in a vacuum the vanilla crafter does a far better job than the create crafters.
how the hell do you even get motivated enough to build all that shit in minecraft goddamn
i install create in most of my packs, but end up getting burnt out and never using it. Damn thing takes up way too much space and requires way too much setup. It just makes me wanna use thermal expansion again since that'll do the same thing faster & easier.
I guess the enjoyment is the process and less the product? Not sure, I've always enjoyed the grind is many grindy games. :)
Part of the be problem here is Mojang is kind of afraid to automate but yet designs around broken emergent mechanics rather than fixing or balancing them. Iron farms are probably the worst possible feature for Minecraft in their current form. Braindead, very annoying, easy to make, and so incredibly optimal for what they do that it's stupid to do anything else. Matching the output of a stupidly simple iron farm using other methods basically requires multiple people constantly manually mining, a gold and piglin trading farm, or a PhD in slimestone quarry design and probably multiple perimeters to bedrock. Golems aren't even good at their actual job, and the only way they make sense is if you are farming golems for iron to make enough of them.
personally, i dislike the Create mod. instead of having one component that does many, many jobs like conventional redstone, it has many, many components that do specific jobs. not my cup of tea, because they dont interact with eachother, more just a conveyor belt of doing different things one after another.
I like your opinion, because it's different from mine, and it helps me consider things differently, especially about Redstone, Thanks for sharing! :D
this video feels sort of.. off
it feels like you havent really tried to properly automate something using the autocrafter, because boy is it absurdly complicated to do so because of it's unique quirks
i feel like calling the autocrafter itself boring because it doesnt come with the ability to materialize ores from thin air or make tree auto-cutters like Create feels... somewhat disingenuous
Thanks for the feedback, I did experiment with the autocrater, and I do apricate it's complexity, I don't think it's boring, just in the context of automation game design it lacks some of the components that makes automation games great. Otherwise I honestly think it's a great addition to Minecraft. :)
Also, create doesn't materialize ores from thin air, for the most part everything uses normal Minecraft mechanics and design principles, plus some blocks can be broken down into other things, such as cobble stone to gravel, and gravel to sand, etc. If you are into automation games at all I recommend giving it a try. But as with any game it comes down to personal opinion, and I apricate you sharing yours! :D
@@Artindi ive done a couple playthroughs with friends while using create (i rarely set up any of the machines by myself), it is rather unique as an automation mod with it's conveyors and crane claws though i will admit
and yeah i guess my phrasing of "out of thin air" is a slightly weird way to describe the way ore is gained in the mod, but the nature of Cobblestone Generators in general is making rocks out of fluids with infinite capacity
the thing that most gave off the impression you were disinterested in the crafter as a whole is probably right near the end where you shared the "exact words" from when you first heard about it, where you mostly just.. went right back to create after glancing at it
Makes sense. Yeah, I can see how that would be communicated, maybe I was a bit hyperbolic sharing that. 😅
Create mod is too complex for some of minecrafts audience
Agreed, even parts of Minecraft are too complex for it's own audience. But the option to learn is always there which is what's great! :)
I'd argue that minecraft's Crafter itself is harder to use than anything Create provides. For any recipe that takes more than one type of ingredient, you will need to build a complex Redstone contraption, which is much harder than what Create offers
i can see why people love create, but i dislike it because i feel like a lot of create content invalidates the existence of vanilla content
Yeah, when you play create you have to think of it as a slightly different game from Minecraft. :)
Oh... it's a create mod ad... quickest "do not recommend this channel" in my life.
Imagine blocking a channel from your feed for one off-topic video
Can you make a video on “how to fail at gameplay loops”