While I get that racing on flat water is a thing, I've recently drunk the Boyan Koolaid: if the point of a surfski is actually downwind, racing or not, the more stable and maneuverable skis are always faster. Which is why I just swapped from a beautiful SR2G MS to a 520 XXL AIR. The latter being 50cm shorter, 5cm wider, and half the weight ...
another guy that has not mastered his boat. Faster skis are for faster paddlers. As stated, if you can go "faster" in a slower boat YOU are the limiting factor not the boat.
Just a great concept the way you put this test together.You used the KISS principal which can appeal to a wide range of Paddlers.When I took my THINK EVO into the surf and out in bluewater I was very unstable and even freaked out.But, with more gym work , work on my paddle technique etc , I have no trouble in the surf/bluewater. Now after a NK Storm 610 .If you have to over think about stability then you tend to reduce the effectiveness of your stroke. Paddling is about rhythm and fluency.With paddling I use these simple strategies. 1. Hold middle of paddle at eye level 2. Swivel body to Left and right 3.Lean a little forward 4.Short blade time in water.This video is very helpful because it stimulates good thinking to better outcomes. Well done !
Very good video! For a more accurate values, you should increase the number of samples. Paddle 10 runs in ten days with each model, record all results and calculate averages and std deviations. You should also account for the heart rate, meaning effort and the rudder type. Someone mentioned the rudder sizes in another comment. I changed my V10 surf rudder for a weedless and notice a good difference in flat to moderate waters.
I agree that the test would probably be better without the turns. We have unofficially calculated that we can see almost as much speed difference between a small flat water rudder and a stock size rudder on the same ski. Were you using similar stock rudders on both skis? Boyan Zlatarev (Tarifa) estimates 3%-4% speed difference for an average paddler between an elite ski (assuming they can paddle it) and a stable ski. Your 5 second difference in the NK was about 1.8% faster than the Zen. If you indeed managed a 10 second time difference by eliminating the turn but keeping the overall distance the same then you would be right there at Boyan's estimate.
Thanks for your comment. The rudders were the same size - a big surf rudder on both skis. Interesting estimates about the pace and differences between the skis! Cheers
@@TriFitwithTimandAmanda If you are sticking to flat water with the Storm the idea of a small flat water rudder is sound. I use one on my ski when racing the flat it is definitely faster, handles differently and collects less rubbish and less risk of damage. After punching one rudder through the bottom a ski hitting rocks I get paranoid about that. Your stable ski will turn easier because its both shorter and you are probably less hesitant putting weight on the outer stroke
Oh you’re right. That’s a good point. I never thought of that. I don’t have to think of balance when turning the Think. I do plan on getting a small river rudder for the Nordic
I think to get a better result in one day you could have done multiple shorter trips in alternating boats to eliminate the fatigue factor. You seemed a bit cooked at the end of the last leg??
Excellent video. I wouldn't expect to see much difference over such a short course. In my experience with K1s, skinnier boats show advantages over a distance; a little less power for similar speed adds up to less fatigue, and being more rested leads to having a lot more energy towards the end of a race. Not sure if it transfers to skis (I have limited experience with Skis), but the more advanced K1s have benefits with catching wakes and cutting through wake.
I currently have an Epic V7 but feels like I have out grown it and need to progress to faster lighter ski. I will keep my V7 because it almost indistructable for when riding and playing around in the waves.
Our local kayak centre does not import the epic skis anymore because they have become too expensive. I'm looking at the carbonology range skis at the moment.
Pretty impressive, that you actually were faster in the 2nd time trial at all. I think the speed difference would ve been way bigger, if you took a 10-20min Rest between the races
Possibly but I think because it was only a 5 min paddle when I normally paddle around 45 mins meant that I wasn’t too fatigued after the first one. It would be an interesting test to do it the other way round.
As your paddling skills improve then the difference between more advanced and basic skis becomes greater, mostly because you can take better advantage of the glide and maintain higher speeds over longer distances..ie it shows up in the second 5kms of a paddle not the first 5kms. As you point out though you cant develop good paddling style in an advanced ski as a first up boat, you just learn bad habits just to stay upright. Eventually when you are good enough to take the NK out in the ocean you will be able to catch and stay on waves that you would have no chance on the Think Great to be able have both options to play with though
So right, I started in stable ski and I developed many bad habits. Now I got myself a NK storm, I learned everything all over again, now I’m enjoying the great speed with less effort comparing to a stable ine
I have a stellar s18s G2 for the ocean and an epic V10 gen 3. I am consistently faster in the heavier stellar even though I don't have any balance issues in the V10. I think a lot of boat manufacturers are pulling back from the long skinny boats and going for more stability. Stellar has the Falcon and Epic has the famous V8 as well as v9. For me the longer skinny ski just isn't worth it.
@@TriFitwithTimandAmanda What year is it because Carbon Lite is now stamped in the cockpit that is why I thought your is the hybrid ? Let me know thanks.
A good test is also to paddle both boats at the same speed over a longer distance and see which one you can achieve the lowest cadence and heart rate to do so, ie which drains your energy most. With sprints both boats are faster than your ability to paddle so its not the boat that holds you back which is why sprint results are not that indicative.. I am fastest in my advanced intermediate ski, but my K1 can hold the same speeds as the ski with a heart rate of 5bpm slower typically and a double stroke rate of about 5/min less...So its me thats the issue..lol..eventually the k1 SHOULD be the faster
Son, you should have left the turn out of it. That introduces skill, which, I am not sure in your case, no offense. The bottom line, the paddler is the limit here not the ski. If all you can handle is intermediate than of course your times will be close. Perhaps, that was your intent, if so, you should have stated such. The lighter faster ski, is faster YOU are the reason for the close times. The slower ski matches your ability. But fun to watch. Really, next time do a point to point and leave the turn out of it.
A lot of pointless talk, from an inexperienced paddler, the simple answer is there is no comparison between those skis the narrower one will be much faster.
To be able to catch a wave and ride the wave my lighter/faster ski is soooo much easier to pull it into speed. So there is more to it then this test.
Yeah that’s true if you can balance in the ski. If I did a downwind test I’d be faster in the Think because of the stability.
While I get that racing on flat water is a thing, I've recently drunk the Boyan Koolaid: if the point of a surfski is actually downwind, racing or not, the more stable and maneuverable skis are always faster.
Which is why I just swapped from a beautiful SR2G MS to a 520 XXL AIR. The latter being 50cm shorter, 5cm wider, and half the weight ...
another guy that has not mastered his boat. Faster skis are for faster paddlers. As stated, if you can go "faster" in a slower boat YOU are the limiting factor not the boat.
Just a great concept the way you put this test together.You used the KISS principal which can appeal to a wide range of Paddlers.When I took my THINK EVO into the surf and out in bluewater I was very unstable and even freaked out.But, with more gym work , work on my paddle technique etc , I have no trouble in the surf/bluewater. Now after a NK Storm 610 .If you have to over think about stability then you tend to reduce the effectiveness of your stroke. Paddling is about rhythm and fluency.With paddling I use these simple strategies. 1. Hold middle of paddle at eye level 2. Swivel body to Left and right 3.Lean a little forward 4.Short blade time in water.This video is very helpful because it stimulates good thinking to better outcomes. Well done !
Thanks for the KISS comment. That’s me all over. Love the idea of keeping the centre of the paddle at eye level. I’ll try that out.
@@TriFitwithTimandAmanda It is hard at first but once established will give you more power and grunt !!!
Thanks
Very good video! For a more accurate values, you should increase the number of samples. Paddle 10 runs in ten days with each model, record all results and calculate averages and std deviations. You should also account for the heart rate, meaning effort and the rudder type. Someone mentioned the rudder sizes in another comment. I changed my V10 surf rudder for a weedless and notice a good difference in flat to moderate waters.
Great advice. Thank you. I am going to do another video where I paddle longer in each ski.
Loved the sound effects as you paddled. Nothing false about this test. No coffee 🤪
I was working hard!
I agree that the test would probably be better without the turns. We have unofficially calculated that we can see almost as much speed difference between a small flat water rudder and a stock size rudder on the same ski. Were you using similar stock rudders on both skis? Boyan Zlatarev (Tarifa) estimates 3%-4% speed difference for an average paddler between an elite ski (assuming they can paddle it) and a stable ski. Your 5 second difference in the NK was about 1.8% faster than the Zen. If you indeed managed a 10 second time difference by eliminating the turn but keeping the overall distance the same then you would be right there at Boyan's estimate.
Thanks for your comment. The rudders were the same size - a big surf rudder on both skis. Interesting estimates about the pace and differences between the skis! Cheers
@@TriFitwithTimandAmanda If you are sticking to flat water with the Storm the idea of a small flat water rudder is sound. I use one on my ski when racing the flat it is definitely faster, handles differently and collects less rubbish and less risk of damage. After punching one rudder through the bottom a ski hitting rocks I get paranoid about that.
Your stable ski will turn easier because its both shorter and you are probably less hesitant putting weight on the outer stroke
Oh you’re right. That’s a good point. I never thought of that. I don’t have to think of balance when turning the Think. I do plan on getting a small river rudder for the Nordic
Nice vid 👌. Dreaming of nice weather. It is winter time here in Montana. Was minus 19 below last week. Thanks for sharing 👍.
Oh jeez. I don’t think we’ve ever experienced that cold. We shiver when it gets to under 20 degrees Celsius 🥶
I think to get a better result in one day you could have done multiple shorter trips in alternating boats to eliminate the fatigue factor. You seemed a bit cooked at the end of the last leg??
Yeah good point. I do plan on doing another video like this with different tests
Excellent video.
I wouldn't expect to see much difference over such a short course.
In my experience with K1s, skinnier boats show advantages over a distance; a little less power for similar speed adds up to less fatigue, and being more rested leads to having a lot more energy towards the end of a race.
Not sure if it transfers to skis (I have limited experience with Skis), but the more advanced K1s have benefits with catching wakes and cutting through wake.
From what I know skis are the same as K1 so there probably is more difference over a longer course.
Very impressive. Appreciate your sharing and looking forward more 👍
Thanks Ray. It’s getting warmer here so there’ll be some more paddling videos soon
I currently have an Epic V7 but feels like I have out grown it and need to progress to faster lighter ski. I will keep my V7 because it almost indistructable for when riding and playing around in the waves.
If you like the Epics. I’d consider a V8 pro or if you’re feeling really confident maybe the V9
Our local kayak centre does not import the epic skis anymore because they have become too expensive. I'm looking at the carbonology range skis at the moment.
All the ski manufacturers make a good range of skis. Good luck on your hunt
Pretty impressive, that you actually were faster in the 2nd time trial at all.
I think the speed difference would ve been way bigger, if you took a 10-20min Rest between the races
Possibly but I think because it was only a 5 min paddle when I normally paddle around 45 mins meant that I wasn’t too fatigued after the first one. It would be an interesting test to do it the other way round.
Good to see you're using your Christmas present!
Best Christmas present ever! I love the stands.
I think the difference would have been greater if you had of paddled the Nordic first as you paddled them back to back.
Interesting point. I’m going to do the test again soon with some changes so it’ll be good to see what the difference is
@@TriFitwithTimandAmanda looking forward to it 👍
As your paddling skills improve then the difference between more advanced and basic skis becomes greater, mostly because you can take better advantage of the glide and maintain higher speeds over longer distances..ie it shows up in the second 5kms of a paddle not the first 5kms.
As you point out though you cant develop good paddling style in an advanced ski as a first up boat, you just learn bad habits just to stay upright. Eventually when you are good enough to take the NK out in the ocean you will be able to catch and stay on waves that you would have no chance on the Think
Great to be able have both options to play with though
Interesting point. I hope you’re right, I feel like I’m a long way from taking the NK into the ocean.
So right, I started in stable ski and I developed many bad habits. Now I got myself a NK storm, I learned everything all over again, now I’m enjoying the great speed with less effort comparing to a stable ine
It’s a great feeling when you start to see your stability and ability improve
@@TriFitwithTimandAmanda agree. Hope you are still practicing, looking forward to your new video with your NK storm.
Not as much as I’d like. I’ve been sick for the last month so hopefully soon
I love my think six, and next for me is the ion
That’s a big step up, I’m told.
Fantastic video, I live behind Enoggera reservoir and own a Fenn XT :)
Thanks! Enoggera is a great place to train.
Nice Test!!! Super to confirm my choise Stellar S18S
Thanks!!
Willy
It’s always good when you know you’ve bought the right ski for you!
@@TriFitwithTimandAmanda
Thanks!!
Greetings from the Alps in Southtyrol
🍀👍👌
We’ve just looked up South Tyrol - is that near Trentino in Italy?
Yes right!!
Beautiful!
I have a stellar s18s G2 for the ocean and an epic V10 gen 3. I am consistently faster in the heavier stellar even though I don't have any balance issues in the V10. I think a lot of boat manufacturers are pulling back from the long skinny boats and going for more stability. Stellar has the Falcon and Epic has the famous V8 as well as v9. For me the longer skinny ski just isn't worth it.
Skis are definitely getting shorter but I’m yet to see less narrow elite skis. At the end of the day it’s whatever works for you
Mate, you said the Storm 570 is a carbon hybrid model at 9.5 kg. Are you sure about that weight ? Because the current Storm hybrid is around 12 KG.
I said the wrong thing. I should’ve said the Carbon Lite. It’s 10kg according to the Nordic website
@@TriFitwithTimandAmanda What year is it because Carbon Lite is now stamped in the cockpit that is why I thought your is the hybrid ? Let me know thanks.
I think it’s 2019. I bought it 2nd hand, I can’t see a stamp on it
That NK is very very old as it has a joining strip.
I think it's a 2019 model
A good test is also to paddle both boats at the same speed over a longer distance and see which one you can achieve the lowest cadence and heart rate to do so, ie which drains your energy most. With sprints both boats are faster than your ability to paddle so its not the boat that holds you back which is why sprint results are not that indicative..
I am fastest in my advanced intermediate ski, but my K1 can hold the same speeds as the ski with a heart rate of 5bpm slower typically and a double stroke rate of about 5/min less...So its me thats the issue..lol..eventually the k1 SHOULD be the faster
I plan on doing the test again with a 2-3km paddle in each ski to see the difference over a longer distance.
I'd be interested to see the difference on bumpy water ... and when surfing bumps ...
Bumpy water May be doable but I’m not stable enough to take the Nordic out in the surf
How Comfortable is each ski as I know paddlers have trouble with FENN or EPIC what are you thoughts?
Fenn and Epic also make really stable skis - Epic V8 and the Fenn XT both of those boats are similar to my Think Zen.
@@TriFitwithTimandAmanda I paddle a FENNBluefin s at about 12 kg slow in the river great fun in the ocean
That’s great. The thing to remember is stability before ability. Paddle what you’re stable in because you’ll have a lot more fun that way.
Maaaate sort that mullet out before it gets a hold of you again. ;-)
It's getting sorted - I'm growing it ;)
Son, you should have left the turn out of it. That introduces skill, which, I am not sure in your case, no offense. The bottom line, the paddler is the limit here not the ski. If all you can handle is intermediate than of course your times will be close. Perhaps, that was your intent, if so, you should have stated such. The lighter faster ski, is faster YOU are the reason for the close times. The slower ski matches your ability. But fun to watch. Really, next time do a point to point and leave the turn out of it.
A lot of pointless talk, from an inexperienced paddler, the simple answer is there is no comparison between those skis the narrower one will be much faster.