You know what is great about this video? A man who can properly articulate his unhappiness with good reasoning. Unlike alot of other rage videos which is all about angry voices and no substance. This is why you've been my first subscribed and favorite shoetuber!
@@michaeltanel3815 not just in recent times or a specific channel. But alot of times rage videos annoy me and it doesn't help that their subscribers post 'encouraging' comments which then blinds the creator into thinking what he did was 'cool' or 'funny' content.
totally agree with the politics of why you think this is a controversial shoe. However, just to give some input (not from running experience) but from motorcycle racing experience. In motorsports, tire (rubber) composition is very important and you choose your bikes "shoes" to compliment your pace and the hardship of the course you're racing on. Yes anyone can buy the different models, but no, they may not work for everyone. For example, Dunlop high racing rubber is very hard to keep hot, if you are a slower rider or a rider that has more pace discrepancy on different parts of the track, you wont keep the tire in its opperating temps and therefore grip is now less, and you're at higher risk of crashing. The racer with this issue would 100% be faster with a different tire and it would allow them to build into the pace they would need to be able to use the faster tire. (without crashing becuase of cold rubber or destroying the tire by using it in the wrong temperature range and they eat through a 500$ set of tires in literally 2 laps sometimes). I believe in any elite field of sport, its hard to say "i might not be fast enbough to benefit from this product". i dont think salomon is trying to say "you're too slow" to runners. I feel they are trying to create products that the runners in those ranges would benefit from to allow them to get the benefits from the premium carbon shoes down the line. "GTN- Global triathlon Network" put out a video on an "averge paced runner" in the half and full marathon distance (they approximated it at about 8min/mi which i think does truely grasp at least %50 of the runners in a race +/- 10sec/mi) and they found that the runner was not any faster in the super shoe and was less comfortable. Shoes arent meant to dictate the runner, they are tools and should be used to compliment where the runner is. I dont think Salomon is trying to segregate, I think they may be trying to help runners buy tools that are adequate to their current level of ability. just to pose an alternate opinion
@@ironj03 Ha! The Spectur is like the Lexus of runners. Overpriced. Looks great. Could've bought a Corolla to do the same thing. Having said that, the Spectur seems to have a tractor beam pull for me at the moment. Still a few mths until I need event day shoes though...
Well described. I'm not ashamed to accept me where I am now - rather slow. A non elite runner, like Mike, is still 40minutes faster than me. I appreciate the shoe manufacturer guide me more clearly on their race shoe offer. I was missing that a lot. YT may be so hrlpful... and misleading 🤷♂️
What an interesting debate. PERSONALLY, my gate and mechanics change drastically when I'm running sub 8:00/m pace. In my view, I see what salmon is doing here and it makes sense. I do also agree with pace vs effort. I don't think i'd be offended if a salesman recommended the "slower" shoe. I'd prob appreciate it. Still, a super interesting debate
Yes yours does, but someone else might not even at the same paces. It’s why the pace specific marketing is flawed; if they gave this shoe to every single person who ran a 3:30-4:00 marathon, would everyone like it more or perform better than if they self selected? I don’t buy that for a second. Let’s laud the shoe for being a good performer, but it’s concerning the pace specific gatekeeping culture surrounding running. It’s so pervasive I think people espouse it without even realizing.
What a fantastic, honest and respectful review! There are ways to criticise without beeing distespectful and you nailed it! I wish I had that ability. Just fantastic, Mr. Kofuzi.
This did provoke one of the most interesting debates and discussions I’ve seen in a long time. And as was the delivery of the video, it’s all refreshingly polite and respectful! I read every single comment and reply and afterward, posted another angle as applies to myself.
Kinda confused by this assessment. Wouldn't providing an option for differently-paced runners on race day be the opposite of gatekeeping? To me, it seems *more* inclusive, saying "here's an option that will give you race day benefits with greater support if you're out on the course longer." Nobody's telling them they can't buy the Phantasm, they certainly can do that if they'd like. That said, I do agree the messaging around the shoe is somewhat is confusing, especially for those in the "in-between" zone. But you are right, it is one of my favorite shoes of 2024 so far. - Robbe
@@kofuzi I understand your angle, like "fast feel" is totally subjective and dependent on the runner, but time on feet is an objective metric, which I think is what they're going for.
The way Robbe & Thomas were giving each other looks in their review… 😂 It was like a couple at an open home secretly saying ‘I think we found the one’. Aside from the Mizuno mystery shoe, nothing has grabbed my attention quite like the ‘Stormtroopers’ this year.
I don't think recommending a shoe to a particular level of runner is gatekeeping, if anything I prefer it. I think of it in the same way as golf clubs having guides on the experience/handicap level for clubs. If you're not at the level recommended, you can still use them... noone is stopping you but you may not get the same benefit as someone better would from them in the same way, someone better might not get the benefits from clubs aimed at someone of a higher handicap.
Exactly right. I think the other relevant analogy with golf in particular is shaft flex -- different swing speeds pair with different shaft flexes, and matching/mismatching swing to shaft can have big impacts on a person's game. I doubt the impact of shoe construction is as dramatic, but I'd imagine varying foams to suit different ground contact times could be beneficial, like tuning the springiness to rebound as your foot is leaving the ground. And then, marketing that shoe by saying "we tuned this shoe based on ground contact time, because our other shoes spring back too quickly if you run at these paces" doesn't seem like gatekeeping, it's just helping consumers understand their options. I suppose if a running store employee INSISTS that may not buy a particular race shoe, that would be gatekeeping.... but that's not Salomon's doing.
Wow, that's a very elitist and authoritarian stance on Noone's part! To what lengths will he go to stop you from wearing a shoe he deems inappropriate?
I was thinking of getting this new running shoes from Salomon. But, you completely changed my mind. Thank you for sharing your unbiased and honest opinions.
I slightly disagree with the conclusion. I think if running shoe stores are saying to a 4:00 marathoner they can’t run in a phantasm then that is a problem, but would a running store suggest an alpha fly to a 4:00 marathoner, probably not because it is unstable and they will not be able to utilize the carbon plate to its full capacity because you have to run really fast to get the spring. Like you said, the price is a bit ridiculous, but if slower marathoners are already using tempo shoes like the Puma or Saucony, then I think it’s a good option to have shoe made for racing for a non elite marathoner since that doesn’t really exist right now. I do think they got their marketing slightly wrong, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with a shoe designed for someone on their feet for way longer
U hit something there. I don't think I could run in an alphafly longer than 4 hours. Solomon is saying, hey there's a "super shoe" that will be more comfortable for runners out there longer than 4 hours. This is such an interesting debate
@@breaktherun I think everyone would love the Salomon shoe if it was $200 and they marketed it differently. Literally if they just said “a super shoe that prioritizes comfort while still giving a race day boost” or something like that would have been so much better than “hey this is for anyone 3:30 or slower”
I understand where you're coming from on the "hard effort translates to hard effort regardless of pace" and, while I agree if we speak in terms of duration, once you apply that reasoning to a set distance it becomes false. As a 37min 10k runner, my all-out effort over a set duration translation into the same duration all-out effort of a elite or sub-elite runner as well as a 50min 10k runner. But the elite/sub-elite will have covered a lot more ground than me, just as I would have covered more ground than the 50min 10k runner. Applying that to a marathon distance, my marathon effort will naturally be below an elite or sub-elite runners marathon effort, but above the 50min 10k runners marathon effort. Because the quicker you run it, the higher the effort can be. As such, a elite/sub-elite can run it more aggressively than you or myself, and might benefit from more aggressive shoes whereas you and I would not.
I feel like everyone is missing the whole logic behind the shoe design. It's not so much about pace as it is Time On Feet. Every shoe involves some sort of compromise. What Salomon is saying here is that the Phantasm is great for hitting top speed but isn't comfortable after 3:00-3:30. With the Spectur they're trying to make a shoe with as much of the Phantasm magic as they can get, but also make it comfortable for 3:30++. You could argue that Nike is doing the same basic thing with the Vaporfly/Alphafly. Vaporfly = light and fast, Alphafly = comfort. I feel like everyone has their back up against the wall when it's just a matter of different shoes for different priorities.
I think the biggest issue is the price point. They priced the shoe at 250 which is elite race day shoe pricing, if they want to make a “non elite” shoe they should have it at a lower price. It kinda feels like they’re scamming casual runners with the price point
The mechanics of running can change significantly when a runner truly goes fast; elite paces, let's say. Much different mechanics than when a runner simply tries hard, and pulls off 8:30 miles (nothing wrong with that). Effort and pace are very different things. How is that hard to understand? Yes we should all think much more about effort than pace in our own running, but these shoes are simply tools, they are NOT our running philosophy. This is about the mechanics of different speeds, not different efforts. Good job Salomon.
Exactly. Of course, with different mechanics and weights of runners, a pace-based grading system is flawed to some degree. But it isn't difficult to comprehend that faster paces require more force put into the shoe, right? And that tuning the properties of design, foam and plate to those forces could be beneficial? I completely understand the criticism/fear of creating an elitist culture around pace, but I think the idea could have merit.
Nah, bad job Salomon (on the marketing, not the shoe design). Hard disagree. Paces and efforts are different obviously, but that’s the point with Mike’s issues. Even amongst elites, their paces/efforts are not always equivalent, and certainly affects their preferences. You just saw how Floberg and Mike running in the same shoe at wildly different paces but similar “efforts” relative to their own abilities still lead to them both liking the shoe for that purpose. Your logic says that Floberg should be running in the spectur for his easy “paces” because a shoe in your view can be tuned for pace irrespective of effort. That’s nonsense. Nobody is arguing the mechanics of every runner are the same, that’s exactly the point; there will 100% be a runner who’s far faster than a 3:30 marathoner who enjoys this shoe, just as there’s someone running 5:00 or longer despite their abilities and form being different. And it sends a bad message about gatekeeping paces and shoes for different people, when in reality it should be just their own experience that determines it.
@@kalvin. see, what you're saying goes off of two runners, Floberg and Mike. While I agree with you this shoe will be enjoyed by a wide range of runners, I don't see a whole lot of value in comparing a couple runner's opinions... I am more interested in science with much larger sample sizes. Let's think about this: a big difference between the s/lab Spectur and other super shoes aimed more at elites is found in the shoes reaction to force; how flexible is it, how much does it compress, how much FORCE is needed to get the most out of the shoe. So with that said, the biggest factor in how much force a runner puts into a shoe is found in the amount of POWER they are producing (the runner's height, weight, etc are small factors compared with their power output). And with that said, it is a fact that that the power produced by elites running fast paces is FAR greater than an average runner going at an extremely high effort. The slow runner's power will still be much lower than the fast runner's power, it's undeniable. So, yeah, I think there is some good science behind what Salomon is doing and I don't see it as a dividing factor or a poo poo on effort-based training by any means.
I respect the opinion of disliking pace-gatekept shoes, I can understand why it's a controversial concept, but I really dont have issue with Salomon creating this shoe for someone with different priorities on race day. Sure different priorities and different paces aren't the same, but you have to understand that a slower runner may appreciate different things in a race day shoe solely based on the amount of time they will be running. Compare a 5 hour marathoner to a 2:20 marathoner and I can almost guarantee the 2:20 marathoner will be able to tolerate an uncomfortable upper for a superior ride (alphafly 1) whereas the 5hr marathoner WILL prioritize comfort. Can speak first hand on this, I've worked in running specialty for years and have seen tons of people take off the vaporfly and other race shoes because they're too narrow and feel weird underfoot and settle for a Clifton because it fits better and is still light enough. Why not make a Clifton that's just as comfortable and just as stable optimized for racing ?? I really don't see an issue with that - the alphaflys of the world are made for people like eliud, if you think the person trying to finish their first marathon under 5hrs has the same priorities and likes the same sensation underfoot on race day as Eliud you are wildly mistaken.
people ask me frequently whether they will benefit from certain race day shoes if they are a "slower runner". and I've seen how people self define that in a number of ways. or people will ask me if there's a cutoff at which point carbon plated racers don't work or where a runner might not get a benefit from a carbon plated racer. and I don't usually like to put hard numbers on it so I give a range. after about the 4 or 5 hour mark, a runner will have to also consider comfort, in addition to raw performance. so I don't think we're in disagreement on any of the central points of your comment.
Agree… i love Kofuzi videos but it has limits… Salomon Phantasm v2 (or Alphafly 3 or Adizeros Pro 3 or NB SC Elite v4… basically all so called « raced day shoe ») won’t probably be the best shoes for 4h+ marathoners. I’ve done my first marathon in Asics Superblast last year (no Carbon plate) in 3h45, and only this year I’m considering plated shoes for my next marathon (target 3h30-25)
One cannot put hard numbers on this topic with so many variables at play. In addition to gait & general biomechanics, footstrike, body type (weight, height) and more, it is far too simplified to define by just one variable. And I just added another perspective that I didn’t seen mentioned by anyone else (probably at the bottom of this thread since I’m seeing this 2 days after upload).
I have to respectfully disagree with Mike on this one. I think that some super shoes are just too much for us slower runners. An example: I bought the original Vaporflys, took them out for a test run around the track, then immediately mailed them back to Nike. They were so propulsive that I couldn’t manage them. I explained to my wife that I didn’t take the shoes for a run, the shoes took me for a run. I think I even heard them say “I am the captain now.”
I'm a University varsity XC runner, and I can tell you that the Phantasm is an INTENSE SHOE, I'm not surprised Salomon wanted a bit of a softer alternative tbh
Brilliant! Nailed the effort comparison. Adaptations from 80 mile weeks hit me this morning and had to do a double-take at my watch running easy pace. “Felt like 8:15-8:20ish” and was 7:20-7:30. 🤯 and I literally had the thought that elites running 6:00 , it feels like this to them. Effort is transferable
Coming from a Mid-Lifer! And I just dropped a longish comment throwing another factor into the mix of this effort vs pace vs time-on-feet convo, ie age-grading. After reading virtually every comment and all replies, noting that wasn’t brought up, I did it.
Agree completely. As someone really slow (five-hour more like it), I sorta like the idea of a shoe "for the rest of us." But at the same time, I am working an equivalent of hard at my race pace as someone like yourself, 2+ hours faster. And then, yeah, even if the premise wasn't flawed, we have the Endorphin Speed 3 at more than $100 less and utilizing ONLY peba. I don't necessarily love the term, "Super Trainer," but this is more like that than a true super shoe.
Watching multiple shoe reviews and interacting with sales agents in running warehouse show a common theme: Almost all super shoes have minimal stability elements and for those who train in stable shoes and want to race in stable race day shoes, options are limited. My first race day shoes is about to arrive and I decided to go with Scott as their marketing pitch is that you can use it both in slow and faster paces. In slower paces the carbon plate stabilizes the shoe and propels you when you run faster (similar to what you are saying about this shoe). So I think there is a market for this kind of race day shoes. I’m a newbie runner who is yet to reach the milestones needed to run a marathon under 4 hours. I would love to wear this when that day comes.
This one and the TYR Valkyrie Carbon Elite really lean into stability. I think more people would be happier running in them than super shoes that have no support.
8 месяцев назад
But why would you need a particularly stable shoe? If you don't actually need any guidance for your stride, it will probably just cause harm. I have some supination and quite strong ankles since doing quite a lot trail/off-trail running. Even most of the "natural" shoes have too much guidance for me.
@ some need them, some don’t. It’s more about building the base wider than having guidance features. Lots of runners need a wider base to feel secure especially around corners. It’s good to have options.
8 месяцев назад
@@Drew.Whitcomb But if you just want to feel stable, a wide based shoe wouldn't necessarily be the best option. I hate manufacturers going really wide especially with their trail shoes intended for technical terrain, where a wide base actually puts more twisting force on your ankles.
@ I'm not talking that wide in this case. Just more than most super shoes so the body manages less of the stability. In certain models, the durometer of the foam may be a touch firmer than ZoomX or squishier super foam. Similar to how you don't want something super squishy in a trail shoe but need something protective yet still firm enough to not collapse as the trail gets more technical. Every person is different so their preferred firmness and stability will be unique. This is why I like the variety of super shoes we're getting nowadays...there's something for everyone.
Ran my first marathon in the s/lab phantasm 2. 5:30-ish. Everything on the course went sideways, from the weather to the course itself. An hour slower than my worst-case-scenario predicted time. The shoe was still one of the only things that I did not have a problem with, because I chose it based upon personal preference for the feel. I came into marathoning from the 5k world, after a rash of injuries robbed me of more of the top end speed necessary for that bit I still prefer that style of shoe. Accordingly, I 100% agree with you Kofuzi that they absolutely flubbed the marketing and how they are pitching this. My running, my choice. That being said, I will absolutely be buying it when it comes out, because of my personal preference for Salomon shoes with how the fit and feel, and my intention to use it for longer runs, as well as potentially for races where I'm in them more for enjoying the experience overall rather than wanting to race.
Oh man. The cold temp running looks painful! Great video as always!
8 месяцев назад+1
What's wrong with cold temperatures. I actually enjoy running when it's below freezing. Makes everything quite a lot nicer than at around 0°C slushy conditions.
Oh my gosh, can fast runners please stop talking about "gate keeeping". I'm a slower runner, my needs are going to be different, the shoes I will pick based on time out there is going to be different, the amount of fueling I will have to consume is going to be different. I do not want to be treated like a 3 hour marathoner or an elite runner, because I'm not! My body is not the same, my needs are not the same. It isn't gate keeping, they are trying to be inclusive.. and here are all these fast runners on RUclips saying, don't do it, don't create these shoes. The more options, the better. I'm not offended by companies creating shoes for slower runners, I am slower! I'm not delusional. And I can improve a lot more when I acknowledge my running level and abilities. I'm slower, and I'd offensive that youtubers think that it's gate keeping to say that those who run at slower paces dont need different things. I'm guessing my power out put is not the same as someone who a lot faster than me, so the shoe is probably going to feel different, and if I am out on a course for 2 more hours than others, I probably am going to want a shoe with more cushion. So there's my rant. Haha. I'm glad you don't want to discriminate, but I don't think that more options is discriminating.
I absolutely agree. I’m stoked that they created this shoe with the needs of slower runners in mind. Even if I end up choosing to go with a more traditional race day shoe for a race I can still myself getting a ton of value during training out of this shoe.
Couldn’t agree more. I’m 5’10”, 170lbs and have a VERY heavy tread. God did not bless me with speed at all. I hate hearing RUclipsrs say they’re “non-elite”… if you can run a marathon in under three hours, you’re elite to me! Heavier, slower people who like to run need options too!!!
Couldn’t agree more! I bought a Nike Vaporfly 2…. I can’t wear it… it literally hurts me…. Options for slow runners are needed that aren’t just high cushion plodders
Damn! Kofu dropping the gauntlet today. haha. Great to see a different side of you. I'm a 9-10 min pace guy and agree that the price point on this bad boy is way off the mark. Thanks for the honest review!
Don’t get an opportunity to watch often however great respect for what you do for global running community. Recently ran HM in Specter at 6:57 p/m. I’m 65 yo with diabetes and Parkinson’s. I find most if not all running shoe manufacturers to be deceitful and condescending to general public with their marketing. I ran HM in all super carbon race shoes, this is as good as any. I purchased the Specter at 45% discount.
I have to disagree with Kofuzi on this one. If this shoe works best at squishing and then springing between certain contact times with the pavement, then go and publish those facts. Who here knows their contact time? I don't see anyone raising their hands. How many of you know your ballpark race pace? Okay now I see hands raised. Knowing this means you'll know if this shoe works best for you. I applaud Soloman for not trying to make you fall in love with any shoe they produce because the marketing department has no problems doing that
I'm a slower runner (certainly way slower than 8min/mile for a marathon) and I find the concept of making a race shoe for slower runners interesting. I could never wear a Vaporfly for 4+ hours.. ouch. While I understand your points I don't really feel like it was intended as gatekeeping on their part and more so to encourage slower runners to spend a ton of money on a carbon plated shoe just like speedy runners do?! 😂💸I'm actually intrigued.. but not willing to spend that kind of money on one pair of shoes tbh 😅
Understand Kofuzi’s reasoning, but what he calls patronising/gate-keeping is such common practice that it’s rarely questioned in other sports/domains. Best example: balls & game-improvement irons/blades in golf. There, too, it’s to do with physics & speeds: a good player simply hits the ball differently. Sure, no one should tell 28-handicapper they can’t buy certain stuff, but it may not be best for their game or pocket.
Yeah, I agree that it’s just an acknowledgment the needs of elite runners and relatively new/slow runners are completely different. Both in regard to the amount of time they’ll be in the shoe, and the runner’s biomechanics. Stride length, cadence, landing and toe-off are all likely to be completely different, so obviously a shoe that works well for one will not necessarily work well for the other. Having said that, I think most buyers will choose a shoe that suits the pace that they aspire to rather than what will suit their current ability.
Mixed feelings on this. To fully utilize unforgiving high end equipment in technique dependent sports, you have to train on it. If you are learning classic XC skiing, you might get rough weight transfer, balance, and physical fitness from a pair of touring skis. However, you won't get a good feel for the finer aspects of weight transfer and properly depressing the cambered glide region of a pair of race skis to go fast efficiently. For golf, I suspect that having too unforgiving a set of clubs can stunt your growth as a player by not punishing flaws as much.
Good points. Lots of amateur marathoners approach training not really sure what their race day pace will be weeks and weeks out. A speed limit on shoes is dumb.
Absolutely agree with your comments about pace-based shoes. I think this is the reason you're the only shoe reviewer I follow on RUclips - so many others talked about shoes feeling better or worse at a certain pace as if the shoe could tell that you were doing X mins/mile rather than Y mins/mile.
It's not about the shoe knowing 🤔, the way the shoe's Foams and plates respond to the pressures and forces applied to it is how the shoe interacts with you that's important, the biomechanics and forces are different for different paces and thus to get the best return at certain paces shoes should be tuned somewhat differently, just because a shoe works the best at fast speeds doesn't mean it's ideal at slower speeds, if anything the bigger the difference the worse it'll likely get.
@@Henri-jm9cz But wouldn't the force be (approximately) the same if my 10k pace was 5:00/mi or 9:00/mi? Or are we saying that faster runners always put more force into a step than slower runners? I assume the answer is much more nuanced than my question, but if I've understood Kofuzi's point correctly, a shoe's purpose is intended to be the same whether you're going to be running faster or slower - an easy day shoe is an easy day shoe whether your easy pace is faster than most run a 5k, or barely above a walk
@@philipwood7673 no, the forces are definetly completely different and quite nuanced, and this is about race day shoes not everyday sort of trainers, we're comparing Salomons race day pinnacle shoe, the spectur a race day shoe for slower paces and all the other race shoes out there. The top race shoes are 1000% tuned specifically for performance at those sorts of top speeds, why would they not? Why would they put any thought into how it'll feel doing a 3.5-4hr marathon
@@Henri-jm9cz I'll freely admit I am no expert, so I'm probably wrong. I had just assumed that largely it would be the same for runners at their relative efforts across the spectrum of paces. I take your point that race shoes are ultimately designed for the elites and so are probably optimised for that sort of pace
Surely for shoes the pace at which they’re being used matters more than the user’s effort, no? If you’re running faster, you have different biomechanics that the shoes need to be designed for than if your running slower, regardless of the effort your exerting to achieve that speed - therefore pace-based design/marketing makes sense. This is why we have super shoes where it’s actually uncomfortable going slow. Am I missing something obvious?
some anecdotes: 1) I once saw a Nike pro pace a marathon pace group (I want to say it was Grant Fisher and a 2:50 pace group). The racers were in carbon plated racers. And if what you say is true, then the pro athlete probably should have been in vaporflys to feel comfortable. but he was chillin in his Pegs, as that pace would be about what his easy long run pace would be 2) just before the marathon trials, Emily Sisson posted a reel about her easy run and HR tracking using her Coros watch. the reel showed Emily running easy in a daily trainer (Rebel 4, I believe). at the end of the run, she posted her stats. 7.5 miles at pace: ~7:00/mi. for me to run that, the NB shoe I would pick would be the SC Elite 4 but Emily was chillin in her Rebels (HR 119bpm).
@@kofuziI think the big difference is that yes, while they might be using those shoes as they are at their easy training paces and not their harder race paces, this doesn't change the benefit they would get from using a better race day shoe at those paces they are doing in your examples, us slower runners can't sustain or even do those paces. If anything they are likely specifically training in something less to help them keep better foot strength and really gain the benefits when it comes to race day. For us slower runners we simply cannot utilise the top super shoes to their full potential at the paces we go at, so why spend the money on them, that's where the spectur comes in. Sure a conversation can be had about the cost of these shoes from saloman, but that is a different topic.
Shoe performance isn't necessarily about speed as it is about running geometry. As people near their higher paces, they tend to move forward a bit more onto their toes. That will be different PACE but comparable % EFFORT. Your geometry/ gait cycle matters more than the actual pace number.
she's also less than 100lbs@@kofuzi .. body weight, pace and time on feet matter in these scenarios. Someone like me who is 230 lbs and runs a 10 min mile should never be in an Alphafly 3 for example.
Interesting thought Kofuzi about pace based shoes. I agree with you... it's like a car, even though I drive slow on average of 80mph doesn't mean I shouldn't buy Ferrari 😅
I appreciate your perspective on this, and I'm on the same page in terms of the democratization of running and saying no to gatekeeping. However! What I thought of when I heard about this shoe was an interview on Believe in the Run's "The Drop" podcast recently, where a physical therapist said that carbon-plated supershoes may actually be detrimental to slower runners, causing them to spring more up and/or back, rather than forward. If true it might mean that encouraging a 9-minute/mile marathoner to wear one could slow them down or lead to injury. Granted, it was one physio and I don't know how much research there is on this narrow use case, but I think it's worth considering when it comes to a shoe like this.
I think that’s a good point but it comes up most often in conversations about wearing CP shoes all the time (during training, not just racing). I personally only use my CP race shoe on races other than one good test run if the pair is new.
This is a bit of an overreaction, I think. I feel like it is totally possible that the needs of an elite runner at race “effort” could totally be different than an average runner running at race “effort,” even if that may be hard to define. Would this perform better than an alphafly for 4 hour marathoner, not specifically in terms of time, but other aspects of their experience, including comfort or injury-prevention? Given the materials and design, would it perform better than running in a daily trainer/max cushion shoe for those runners also? If so, I think it would be a successful shoe. The other reason I think this is an overreaction is that I prefer when a shoe company offers their reasoning and recommendations for a shoe. Especially if that is a critical component to its design. If ASICS didn’t tell me what the difference between the meta speed sky+ and edge+ were, I’d be totally lost. As a truly non-elite runner, I would be happy for a running shoe salesman to tell me about the potential benefits of a race day shoe designed for slower runners. I would not feel patronized and I would still be capable of making my own decisions. So, not gatekeeping. I really like these really great reviews from someone clearly highly knowledgeable and invested in shoe technology, but I think a company trying to improve race performance for a person like me is not a bad idea on the face of it.
Finally a shoe review that saves me money vs makes me spend! Or wait, does it?!?!?!? I'm a 7:11/mile marathoner. Where do it fit? Maybe at NB. Waiting on the Pacer V2..LOL
The thing with this Salomon and Diadora’s new running line is you are also paying for how good the shoes look Let’s be honest, these smaller euro brands still nail styling and aesthetics better than the larger brands
I 100% agree with you, Mike. I fit the 3:40 demographic for this shoe (don't judge me, I'm 61); but as a design engineer, it's befuddling how a shoe is designed for a specific pace range. I get that later in a race, a non-elite runner might need more support as the form breaks down. But that happens to most runners.
I know you have no ill will at all, so I am not judging you, but this is the type of sort of casual gatekeeping that the sport can have sometimes. Almost like unconscious bias type of thing. Again, I know there's no malice in your comment and this is not meant to be a "beef" type of thing... BUT... I am 20 years younger and more than an hour slower. Tons of reasons for it, but in the end, the reasons don't really matter. Me finishing in five is working just as hard as you finishing in 3:40 from an effort perspective. Now, every sport has this. The sort of barriers, right? When I was powerlifting, getting the four-plate squat was a big deal. And within 90 seconds of hitting that, you start thinking about 500 and that you need a better belt or shoes or whatever as compared to the kid just starting that's squatting the bar. Hell, he/she may be trying harder than I am.
Because most RUclips shoe reviewers are faster than me, I am perpetually having to interpret their shoe reviews based on my personal attributes including height, weight, and marathon race pace. It should be uncontroversial to say that different runners generate differing forces making different shoes better for different runners and purposes. As for condescension and gatekeeping, I would be unlikely to purchase from or return to a store whose sales people attempted to shame me into purchasing shoes that don't work for me. I certainly do agree that there is no reason to pay $250 for the Spectur just because Solomon has classified it as being a race shoe when, as you point out, there are many equally good options available for less money. I may look at the Spectur when it goes on sale, even if I have become a sub-3:00 marathoner by then. 😉
I would walk out of a shoe store where the staff is “gatekeeping”. There may be a fine line between offering informed advice and gatekeeping. At my favorite running store I overhear conversations between staff and customers coming in, explaining their needs and receiving advice in return. In a good store, the staff will bring out a LOT of options and not restrict customers from trying whatever they want. Even unsolicited advice is acceptable if delivered respectfully. I think what Kofuzi dislikes here is the over-defining of a shoe model in advance of reaching the consumer, which could backfire for the company, given the huge range and number of variables between us runners. I’m not sure it’s condescending in itself, but it certainly seems non-productive. Stereotyping a runner who is big/heavy, eg., and comes into a store looking for shoes could indeed by condescending.
My fav part of these reviews is when you do 1st grade subtraction to determine the forefoot stack and I get excited because I know what the answer will be
Pace based makes complete sense. I think it’s clearly a bruise on one’s ego if they’re told they are too slow for effort. Regardless of “effort” science is science and if a shoe isn’t designed for you then you don’t need it. If you want to be able to wear the shoe that badly then get faster…sounds harsh but being told you’re slower shouldn’t offend you
Spot on about the shoe sales person sizing you up as far a certain shoes for speed. I went back to an athletic shoe store I had previously managed. I was in mid 30', actually most of PRs coming in the next few years. The store Nike's sock racer very fast shoe. The kid cam over and said " oh, you don't want those shoes, that's for fast runners. The manager not much better. My PR around then for 5K was 15:27. Jus grabbed the sock racers and paid for them. I could hear him talking to the manafer: I told him those were for fast guys.
This is the unfortunate truth of the underlying of the running world. I am 6.2 and weigh 230. Everyone I go into a “running shoe store” I’m always thrown into ultra max cushion shoes or non elite running shoes. Not everyone’s approach is like this but for the most part there are the “upper elite” running class of folks. Keep positive my sir. Thanks
8 месяцев назад+1
So you are heavy, but are you a strong runner? Do you have strong feet and do you run fast with a decent stride? Have you had any good experiences with "elite runners shoes" with stiff carbon plates? In my opinion heavier runners with strong feet might benefit from stiff carbon plates at slower paces than a lightweight elite runner.
@ I am heavy but light footed due to my futbol/ basketball past life. I love anything with a carbon plate due to my tendinitis and the fact that they are a great option for taller and or bigger runners.
Tbh, I think we are overcomplicating the argument. The truth is that people who are running marathons in the 3 hour, 4 hour, 5 hour pace range benefit from having certain elements built into a shoe that can protect them and accommodate them more over the course of a race, compared to people running more efficiently and with better mechanics. While people can absolutely research shoes and materials that they find appealing, experts at running stores will always make recommendations based on what they think will work best for an athlete. It’s not about gatekeeping, it’s about democratizing the market. A more aggressive, stiffer shoe is not the right fit for everyone, and having a top of the line shoe that accommodates people that can use more room, support, and flexibility isn’t a bad thing. All the manufacturer is doing is pointing people in the right direction and creating a product that people can excited about. Ultimately, people are free to buy whatever they want, and no outfitter at any running store I’ve been to has ever said “Ew, no, you’re too slow for that shoe.” It’s always about making good recommendations based on observations.
I don’t agree with your view, shoes should be pace based, people going at 8/mile have completely different technique and weight than people going at 6/mile and this is something that should be teach or explained to the average runner. You are “allowed” to run in super shoes or whatever you want if you go at 8/mile but it’s probably not what it’s best for you!
Interesting debate! I agree that folks should be free to buy whatever shoes they want, and Salamon's marketing here is a bit odd. I don't agree with the premise that my easy or hard effort is the same as everyone else's though. Yes, effort level is similar but the amount of energy that I'm putting into a shoe as a mid-packer is very different from that of someone at the front or someone nearer the back of the pack, so the same shoe will likely react in different ways.
Love the nuance and perspectives you usually bring, but I feel like a disagree strongly with you on this one 🙈 Which is fine of course, and this could be an interesting discussion! I look at it like this: for a shoe to work for you, time on feet (comfort) and a match with your mechanics (geometry) matter the most. For elite runners, these two things are different: they spend less time on their feet (so comfort is less important) and they run much faster with mechanics that we normal people don’t use over that race distance. On average, mechanics change with pace. A ‘slower’ runner working really hard (say, zone 5 to run a 5:00 min km) simply doesn’t run with the same mechanics as an elite runner working in zone 5 (probably closer to a 2:30 pace). So both probably prefer a different geometry for their zone 5 work, even though they’re working equally hard. The vaporfly was designed for elite marathoners, but turns out to be a very popular 5 km shoe for the average human. Why do you think that is? Switching to the marathon: elites spend a little bit over 2 hours running 3:00 min per km pace. That’s both in duration and mechanics a world apart from someone running a 4 hour marathon. The latter will prefer more comfort and probably a different, less agressive geometry. The word ‘probably’ is important here: it is of course ultimately individual. But I think it is inclusive to design a shoe that has all the supershoe features, but on average caters to slower paces due to a tailored geometry and some added comfort. Now people can choose. Nobody says they’re not allowed to get the supershoe designed for elites. At least they can choose now and there’s a shoe that offers all that supershoe technology in a design that isn’t tailored for the very few elite runners, but runners like the most of us. I think that’s a great thing!
Right but does Salomon say that this shoe will improve a 4 hour marathoner’s time more so than an alphafly or their own Phantasm 2? If it doesn’t then the point is moot, because then it’s just about preference and comfort and that has nothing to do with pace on its own. If we all had the same mechanics, body composition, and health then it would be easy to account for pace. But that’s not the case.
@@kalvin.I think that's exactly the point: it's individual how you respond to a shoe. It's impossible to claim that a shoe improves economy for everyone with the same amount (or equally that it gives a bigger advantage than any other shoe). To say something about averages, a properly big scientific study is needed. This has been done for some of the super shoes and there's a clear trend that the average gains in economy diminish as the pace goes down. I don't remember the range of the study, but the 4% average increase at elite paces reduced to about 1% average for slower paces. So designing a shoe that has the specific mechanics of slower (i.e. more normal) runners in mind makes sense. At least for some of them it'll be a better shoe (which means that they individually respond better to it). The whole idea here is not to design a shoe that slower runners HAVE to use, but to add another one to the choices available. And because this shoes has been designed specifically to mechanics that are more representative of the way they run, there's a good chance that it actually might work for them.
@@swenderich I’ll agree with you about making more shoes better for more people, but I believe you have the study backwards on running economy. There’s been results indicating the super shoes provide far more benefit for slower runners as they offer technology to improve running economy more so than elites who already have near peak running economy and need the marginal, 4% gains
Agreed. At $250, they're saying this is a better shoe than something like the Endorphin Pro 4 and equivalent to the Adios Pro 3? Pretty bold. I think a lot of slower runners would probably do well in a nice plated trainer that comes in at the $160-$180 retail price.
When you are an elite runner, it is hard to relate to a more average runner that requires more stability. Even though my feet are neutral, running shoes like the Vaporfly are soooo aggressive and thin in the back that the instability causes a lot of pain in the heel area for me and many others Also, for me, carbon-plated running shoes are significantly more comfortable and reduce foot pain ... compared to non carbon-plated running shoes For the average runner, there are very few options that are not sooo aggressive, and unstable in the heel area with a carbon plate... They got it right ... your perspective is an echo chamber of elite professional runners
I think I have failed in communicating one aspect of my complaints with this shoe. I will try to be more concise: Other shoes already exist that do what this shoe does and they do it much cheaper. E.g. Puma Deviate Nitro 2. Saucony Endorphin Speed 4. Adidas Boston 12. Also, please let me know if you’ve bought this shoe.
I think you are taking this the wrong way. Not everyone is a shoe expert walking into a shoe store. I think it is helpful when you have shoe salesman guiding those who are not as informed on each type of shoe. ( Or having a website that is guiding the way) A lot of people do not have the time to obsess over shoes like some of us so I think its great that they are trying to inform choice with their money. Just my thoughts as a slower runner.
I think what Solomon’s goal wasn’t necessarily looking at pace or effort, but looking at time on feet during a marathon. A slower runner is going to be on their feet for 4+ hours in their shoes, vs a more “elite” or “faster” runner who’s on their feet for 2.5-3.5 hours. The shoe has to be able to maintain its resiliency for a longer duration of time, hence the dual density foams, a plate that’s more of a stabilizing element, and an upper that aims more at comfort than lightweight speed. It’s built for being in the shoes longer. That being said, as a slower runner, would I pick this shoe for a marathon? Nope. I’d much rather pick Asics Superblast or Asics Glideride 3. I could actually create a list of shoes I’d rather make a marathon attempt in. To be honest, I’ve ran a half marathon in the Adidas Adios Pro 3, the Asics Superblast, and Asics Nimbus 25 in similar conditions last year, and the difference between them was minimal and actually set my fastest time in the Superblast between the 3. My PR for the half was in the Asics Glideride V1. To me, this shows efficiency for me as a slower runner is more important than any of the fancy tech to help with propulsion. I also see both shoes as very resilient shoes, handling my weight and pace for extended periods of time. I see what they are trying to do… but the marketing manager in me is screaming at the shoe company people for being so terrible at explaining these things… like the Asics SPEED line of shoes. Ask me about that.
Hey Kofuzi, I was wondering if you can back up the reasoning of “hard effort sensations being consistent across paces” with research? To me, faster paces are (with all other variables constant) inherently related to more force, therefore the impact on the shoe is definitely different, right? With that said, I also do think that pro opinions matter less than we think, because of their mileage and pace being incomparable to most normal runners. We also see it with aerobikes in cycling; most gains are marginal if you’re not going 40kmu+. But luckily they still sell like hot cakes, and that’s okay.
no research, just vibes. I think I can say the same the other way, as well. I am unaware of any research that indicates that 6:50/mi pace for a sub 5 minute per mile marathoner feels the same as 6:50/mi for me, when it comes to which shoes feels right.
Every time I walk into a running store, I preface my interactions with something like “Hey there! I’m slow as hell.” I would have no problem being sized up. I’d love to see what other brands would come up with if they specifically targeted us Clydesdales in their product development and marketing.
From material science point of view, the damping and spring performance of rubber material do depend of the frequency of cyclic loading and unloading. So, it is not completely out of question that the mid sole rubber can be "tuned" to have peak performance at a certain cadence, i.e. tailored to a certain running pace. Having said that, Salomon without publishing the frequency response curve of their mid sole material, we cannot know whether it is for real or just a marketing thing.
I'm curious. How much can we also ascribe to a runners weight when determining the right shoe for the job? My assumption is even an equally paced runner may have significantly different experiences with the same shoe just by being taller/heavier. If that's wrong then disregard but if not then is pace alone a very good measurement by itself for prescribing a particular shoe?
@@derringera Absolutely. Stack height is a limiting factor. A heavy set runner may bottom out the foam compression during ground contact. But besides weight, there are so many other factors such as running form (forefoot , mid foot or heel strike) and idividual's biomechanics. At the end of the day, finding the right pair of shoes is still a very subjective thing. Unfortunately for us average runners with very average wallet size, we cannot just buy and try everything until we find something that works.
Hey Kofuzi! Another great review!!! How would you compare this shoe with the New Balance SC Trainer V1? They look very similar… and I loved the SC Trainer v1… it would be great to hear from you
If you think about what a shoe has to deliver, pace is more relevant than perceived effort. I think that stiffness/flexibility & geometry dictates what kind of pace/stride/effort/weight a shoe is good for. A really heavy and strong runner might outrun a shoe before a faster and lighter runner, even if the pace wouldn't be as fast. On the other hand a weak light slow runner might be doing his maximum effort and still not getting the most out of a shoe.
220 lbs here, not very fast, and I must say Adidas Pro 2, Takumi Sen 8, Vaporfly 2 and S Lab Pulsar 2, are my favorites. I dont think its possible to make a pace based or even runner bodytype shoe. Maybe its an excuse to sell a super trainer for the price of a race shoe. Luckily Salomon is the best company at lowering prices.
I wonder if there are any 8-10min milers out there who take offense to this marketing? Because I’m one of them and I think it’s great. It’s a “super” shoe with advanced technology that is targeted to a different pace than traditional “super” shoes. 🤷🏼♂️
I spent years in that pace range for my marathons This was also at the dawn of the supershoe era where people would for sure pace check you for even thinking about buying a pair of vaporfly 4% I would have been offended then and I’m bothered by it now
@@kofuzi I am also in this category and I'm really happy they made this shoe! I've found pace really does make a difference---the Cloudmonster was a great example of this for me. Didn't make sense at 6min/km I normally run at, but when I started running the 4:30/km pace that the reviewers who loved it were running at, the shoe came into its own. 4:30 is their super easy pace. 6 is mine. Simply on a technical level, to run faster either cadence or stride length have to change and that will affect how a shoe performs. If I were to push the point, I'd suggest it's the other way around. Slower runners like myself have gotten into the habit of wanting what elite athletes wear and end up risking injury because of it. We should always have choice and no-one should be judged---I completely agree there---but if a company wants to provide me with a beautifully made shoe that provides the excitement of race day with the protection required for someone running more hours with technique that falls apart pretttty quick, I'm all for it. Love what you do and thanks for everything!
@@kofuzii'm also a slower runner targeting 1:50 HM. I tried a lot a shoes and i really can tell that some of the "supertrainers" work only at faster paces for me. The deviate nitro 2, prime X Strung 2, Superblast etc needs a minimum pace to really "work". With the prime x 2, I was struggling to really land and go fluidly at lower pace to hm pace. I discovered the magic of the shoe the day I took them for fast intervals. I was just like "oh okay, this is how it's supposed to shine". Too fast of a shoe for me, and actually i would be glad if someone would have told me that beforehand ! On a more global scale, I would Say that the average mechanics of all runners are more similar at a distinct pace than at a distinct effort. Your stride AT easy pace doesn't look like mine, which doesn't look like athlete. But maybe you, I and Kipchoge share a similar stride at 5:00/km. And I guess engineers at Salomon designed the shoes with that in mind. Who could blame them ? It's better than an Alphafly 2 made only to fiit the best of the best of marathon runners... I'm actually very interested in this shoe as slower runners are often forgotten when WE are looking for performance shoes.
Do you think the stability nature of this shoe might be better for longer time on the road? (Regardless of pace or speed) would it be a more comfortable shoe for a 4-5 hour effort whether that be a marathon or if your faster something longer? I have wondered with longer time on feet if different shoes might suit people better.
I've long advised that, at a certain point, runners may want to consider comfort of their race day shoes, in addition to raw performance. but that's up to the runner, and I won't put a speed limit on it plus, I think that great options for that runner already exist that don't cost $250
Completely agree re: pace based marketing. Seems like Salomon has always separated their customers - S/Lab intended for the speedsters (also narrower) and not for plodders like me. And I think you’re absolutely right on the impact of the marketing - salespeople will screen (intentionally or not) consumers and pass on judgement. That is problematic.
I think it only requires a slight tweak in language and a big change in pricing and the shoe is fixed. Not an easy change, but to me, the answer is clear
Mizuno does the same with their new Wave Rebellion Pro 2 which is for the sub 2.30 runners. So If I go to a shoe retailer to buy that shoe do I need to prove that I can run that speed otherwise I'm not allowed to buy that shoe? I'd happily buy another brand!
As someone who is slow, I just ran the Austin Marathon in the Rebellions Pro 2s and loved the experience (I didn't enjoy bonking as I screwed up my nutrition but that's another story). I didn't find out about the pace recommendations until I looked at Mizuno's Japanese website after the race. So I'm glad ignorance is bliss - I don't know if I'd second guess my purchase if I knew that beforehand. I highly recommend the Pro 2s as a race shoe if you're a midfoot striker, regardless of your pace.
The other side of the coin (and this happens a lot) people end up buying too much shoe for what their running style is. When I started running 2 and a half years ago, especially being an obese runner, I would have liked a bit more direction on what shoes to get. In the stores, they want to get you in the latest and greatest but after about 4-6 months of wearing the shoes, they are all beat up and usually, due to weak ankles, the shoe foam is usually crushed inward towards the arch. I think it's perfectly fine for a company to say, if you're in this speed range, this shoe will probably work best for you as it provides more value for your dollar. I think I've wasted a good $1500 dollars on shoes that were recommended by reviewers as a "must have" shoe. Now that I'm a better runner, lost a ton of weight and, have a better running style and cadence, the shoes that were recommended to me then would probably work better for me now. Too bad they are ruined 😃. Try not to think of the shoes as being restricted but more as a shoe that is openly accessible.
I really wanted to like these but the tongue kinda killing the sleek vibes. Might still consider if I can find a pair in store to try on. Would you size down at all? Heard these run a little “long”
Although I agree that pace based shoes can be seen as patronising. No one is complaining about the other end of the spectrum. I don’t see any shoe reviewer complaining about Mizuno who openly says the rebellion pro was designed for sub 3hr marathon runners
I'm not sure I recall seeing that. The Adios Pro Evo 1 had language indicating that it wasn't intended for runners slower than 3:30. And I thought the Cloudboom Echo 3 had some sort of pace language on it too. Those situations feel different to me than this. I'm not sure I can really delineate why, though. I'll have to think more about this.
Doctors of Running discuss this topic (super shoes for 4:00+ marathoners) and basically what it all comes down to is: is the shoe comfortable for you, does it work with your biomechanics, and does its comfort hold up over 26.2 miles. There’s nothing magical about pace-based shoes and there are far too many other factors to consider. Every runner is different and there may be better options that aren’t these aggressive carbon-plated super foam shoes. For me, I’m trying to crack 4 hours and I am enjoying running in the Adios Pro 3 for my marathon pace and faster pace workouts. It works for me. So, with all that, Salomon’s big problem here isn’t the shoe itself, but how they’re positioning it and what they’re charging for it. $250? You can get two pairs of Speed 3s on sale for basically that price, and as Kofuzi points out, they’re not that dissimilar from the Spectur. Thanks for the review and for repping the “common person” runner!
I feel this is one of the smartest comments on an obviously very interesting discussion triggered by this review. The notion of pace-based shoe selection has been controversial, complex and confusing. In my case, I’m a fast-for-age runner. I started running late and now in my early 70’s I’m running Boston annually because I requalify there every year. My age-graded finish time is around 2:45, which means my effort is theoretically comparable to that. However, my fastest finish there was still over 4:00. So how do I factor this into shoe choices? I see so many comments saying things like “if you don’t run a sub 3 marathon why would you bother buying a super shoe” or “it’s a waste…” etc. Yet virtually all my competitive finishers in my age group are wearing CP super shoes. 2 years ago I used the Endo Speed; last year I switched to the Endo Pro3 and had an 18:00 PR (though obviously there were other bigger factors involved). It was the 1st CP race shoe that felt natural to me. I just tried the AF3 and sent it back (even though I got it at a nice discount from my running store) because I doubt I’m getting out of it what I should and don’t want to risk it on an A race. I think your point is the wisest and I write similar comments frequently: Everyone needs to try on shoes for themselves to determine what works for them, for whatever reason. Never buy a shoe based solely on a review or reviewer you like. Great reviewers like Ko help you narrow down what you’re interested in, but ultimately you need to go a brick and mortar store-ideally-and see how they work for you. Most independent stores will let you return shoes and no one but the manufacturer loses a dime. (And Nike probably loses a pittance in my case!). Good luck to both of us trying to crack 4:00!
They could easily have classified it as a super trainer with the ability to take it to race day & no-one would have blinked. Price is a problem, depending on where your money comes from. Still eyeing them off though. I want to run in a pair of stormtroopers…
NO Mike. I am angry at what you are angry about! 😄 Finally, some company did think of ME ! A non athlete, new runner who knows nothing and NEEDS a clear guide to select a shoe for his dream marathon! That's me 🙋♂️ (in the corner...;) My 1st race pace was EXACTLY at 8! Moreover, this is exactly where Saucony messed up with SPEED against PRO! Making it more casual (against its name) rather promoting them as 2 RACE options. Same EFFORT not exactly the same PACE. See the picture? Sure, I see yours - million miles in hundreds of shoes - no one will tell you what you NEED best. 🤷♂️ You no longer need guide! You are our guide ! Don't be angry (not @me, @Salomon) I would be more than happy they did guide us too. Final choice is still in my hands, and 💶 is the guide #1. I must finally get these Pumas until they realise they can ask 250!!!
I like getting options, regardless if they are labelled as being for certain speeds or strides (Metaspeed), but as you say there is no standard runner, I for example feel that supershoes work despite my at best mediocre speed because my weight engages them more than a lighter runner would at the same speed. That being said 250 for a shoe with a lot of EVA is a bit steep, I really like my Tempo next % or Deviate 2 but I would not pay 250 for them.
I appreciate Grips #2-3, but personally can't agree with #1. I think the physiological difference in pace "Fast" versus pace "Average" is apparent even if perceived effort is identical. I mean, I love your approach to send people to similar shoes that aren't priced so high (the Speed 3 IS great!). But all the same I think Salomon is within their rights here. Where was the vitriol for Hoka's Cielo or the litany of Prime X etc. which are also, by your historical measure not ideal for racing, but super fun and worth buying for shoe heads? Smh.
Did you argue much in your attorney days, because damn that was superbly terse and potent advocacy for your point of view. Saved plenty of time for rebuttal.
I realy don't think its a problem of you are allowed to or not, when choosing a shoe. I think, I see what salomon is doing here. As a beginner in the marathon distance, from what I have heard from a lot of sources is, that a supershoe only starts to make sense when you are rather fast and more of a neutral runner. As for myself I do need a little stability, so from what you told, it seems that this shoe could be a good pick for me. It's pricy thoug. I'd love to see a video from you on what racing shoes you'd recromend for people with stability needs.
there really aren't any stability racing shoes, per se. some tempo day shoes and race day shoes are more stable than others though. the ones that I recommended as alternatives to this shoe would be great places to start.
You know what is great about this video? A man who can properly articulate his unhappiness with good reasoning. Unlike alot of other rage videos which is all about angry voices and no substance. This is why you've been my first subscribed and favorite shoetuber!
Totally agree. Kofuzi is a genuinely a great guy. I also love his videos. 😊
@@hutch333player although he might be a bit too much of a shoe nerd at times 😃
Are we referencing a very recent rage (whiney) based video from another well known channel? 😂
Couldn’t agree more
@@michaeltanel3815 not just in recent times or a specific channel. But alot of times rage videos annoy me and it doesn't help that their subscribers post 'encouraging' comments which then blinds the creator into thinking what he did was 'cool' or 'funny' content.
totally agree with the politics of why you think this is a controversial shoe. However, just to give some input (not from running experience) but from motorcycle racing experience. In motorsports, tire (rubber) composition is very important and you choose your bikes "shoes" to compliment your pace and the hardship of the course you're racing on. Yes anyone can buy the different models, but no, they may not work for everyone. For example, Dunlop high racing rubber is very hard to keep hot, if you are a slower rider or a rider that has more pace discrepancy on different parts of the track, you wont keep the tire in its opperating temps and therefore grip is now less, and you're at higher risk of crashing. The racer with this issue would 100% be faster with a different tire and it would allow them to build into the pace they would need to be able to use the faster tire. (without crashing becuase of cold rubber or destroying the tire by using it in the wrong temperature range and they eat through a 500$ set of tires in literally 2 laps sometimes). I believe in any elite field of sport, its hard to say "i might not be fast enbough to benefit from this product". i dont think salomon is trying to say "you're too slow" to runners. I feel they are trying to create products that the runners in those ranges would benefit from to allow them to get the benefits from the premium carbon shoes down the line. "GTN- Global triathlon Network" put out a video on an "averge paced runner" in the half and full marathon distance (they approximated it at about 8min/mi which i think does truely grasp at least %50 of the runners in a race +/- 10sec/mi) and they found that the runner was not any faster in the super shoe and was less comfortable. Shoes arent meant to dictate the runner, they are tools and should be used to compliment where the runner is. I dont think Salomon is trying to segregate, I think they may be trying to help runners buy tools that are adequate to their current level of ability.
just to pose an alternate opinion
Great explanation. I had car analogies running in my head too.
@@Ben.StevenswithaV gues motor heads and runners are more in common than we thought lol. 😆
@@ironj03 Ha! The Spectur is like the Lexus of runners. Overpriced. Looks great. Could've bought a Corolla to do the same thing. Having said that, the Spectur seems to have a tractor beam pull for me at the moment. Still a few mths until I need event day shoes though...
Well described.
I'm not ashamed to accept me where I am now - rather slow.
A non elite runner, like Mike, is still 40minutes faster than me.
I appreciate the shoe manufacturer guide me more clearly on their race shoe offer. I was missing that a lot.
YT may be so hrlpful... and misleading 🤷♂️
Completely agree with you
What an interesting debate. PERSONALLY, my gate and mechanics change drastically when I'm running sub 8:00/m pace. In my view, I see what salmon is doing here and it makes sense. I do also agree with pace vs effort. I don't think i'd be offended if a salesman recommended the "slower" shoe. I'd prob appreciate it. Still, a super interesting debate
Yes yours does, but someone else might not even at the same paces. It’s why the pace specific marketing is flawed; if they gave this shoe to every single person who ran a 3:30-4:00 marathon, would everyone like it more or perform better than if they self selected? I don’t buy that for a second. Let’s laud the shoe for being a good performer, but it’s concerning the pace specific gatekeeping culture surrounding running. It’s so pervasive I think people espouse it without even realizing.
What a fantastic, honest and respectful review! There are ways to criticise without beeing distespectful and you nailed it! I wish I had that ability. Just fantastic, Mr. Kofuzi.
Will these shoes self combust at 7:30 pace?
Haha... funny to see Kofuzi get all worked up! 😂 I agree though, and that price is bananas.
Annoyed Kofuzi might be my favourite Kofuzi
Here for fiery Ko
Hahahaha! The best Kofuzi version yet.
Great video Mike! Some super discussion here.
thanks Ed!
This did provoke one of the most interesting debates and discussions I’ve seen in a long time. And as was the delivery of the video, it’s all refreshingly polite and respectful! I read every single comment and reply and afterward, posted another angle as applies to myself.
Kinda confused by this assessment. Wouldn't providing an option for differently-paced runners on race day be the opposite of gatekeeping? To me, it seems *more* inclusive, saying "here's an option that will give you race day benefits with greater support if you're out on the course longer." Nobody's telling them they can't buy the Phantasm, they certainly can do that if they'd like. That said, I do agree the messaging around the shoe is somewhat is confusing, especially for those in the "in-between" zone. But you are right, it is one of my favorite shoes of 2024 so far. - Robbe
there's something about putting hard numbers down to demarcate fast and not fast that I find really bothersome
@@kofuzi I understand your angle, like "fast feel" is totally subjective and dependent on the runner, but time on feet is an objective metric, which I think is what they're going for.
The way Robbe & Thomas were giving each other looks in their review… 😂
It was like a couple at an open home secretly saying ‘I think we found the one’.
Aside from the Mizuno mystery shoe, nothing has grabbed my attention quite like the ‘Stormtroopers’ this year.
I don't think recommending a shoe to a particular level of runner is gatekeeping, if anything I prefer it. I think of it in the same way as golf clubs having guides on the experience/handicap level for clubs. If you're not at the level recommended, you can still use them... noone is stopping you but you may not get the same benefit as someone better would from them in the same way, someone better might not get the benefits from clubs aimed at someone of a higher handicap.
It’s like buying a $10K camera as ur first camera to screw around with. Usually a bad idea unles ur rich
Exactly right. I think the other relevant analogy with golf in particular is shaft flex -- different swing speeds pair with different shaft flexes, and matching/mismatching swing to shaft can have big impacts on a person's game. I doubt the impact of shoe construction is as dramatic, but I'd imagine varying foams to suit different ground contact times could be beneficial, like tuning the springiness to rebound as your foot is leaving the ground.
And then, marketing that shoe by saying "we tuned this shoe based on ground contact time, because our other shoes spring back too quickly if you run at these paces" doesn't seem like gatekeeping, it's just helping consumers understand their options. I suppose if a running store employee INSISTS that may not buy a particular race shoe, that would be gatekeeping.... but that's not Salomon's doing.
Wow, that's a very elitist and authoritarian stance on Noone's part! To what lengths will he go to stop you from wearing a shoe he deems inappropriate?
I was thinking of getting this new running shoes from Salomon. But, you completely changed my mind. Thank you for sharing your unbiased and honest opinions.
I slightly disagree with the conclusion. I think if running shoe stores are saying to a 4:00 marathoner they can’t run in a phantasm then that is a problem, but would a running store suggest an alpha fly to a 4:00 marathoner, probably not because it is unstable and they will not be able to utilize the carbon plate to its full capacity because you have to run really fast to get the spring.
Like you said, the price is a bit ridiculous, but if slower marathoners are already using tempo shoes like the Puma or Saucony, then I think it’s a good option to have shoe made for racing for a non elite marathoner since that doesn’t really exist right now.
I do think they got their marketing slightly wrong, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with a shoe designed for someone on their feet for way longer
U hit something there. I don't think I could run in an alphafly longer than 4 hours. Solomon is saying, hey there's a "super shoe" that will be more comfortable for runners out there longer than 4 hours. This is such an interesting debate
@@breaktherun I think everyone would love the Salomon shoe if it was $200 and they marketed it differently. Literally if they just said “a super shoe that prioritizes comfort while still giving a race day boost” or something like that would have been so much better than “hey this is for anyone 3:30 or slower”
I understand where you're coming from on the "hard effort translates to hard effort regardless of pace" and, while I agree if we speak in terms of duration, once you apply that reasoning to a set distance it becomes false. As a 37min 10k runner, my all-out effort over a set duration translation into the same duration all-out effort of a elite or sub-elite runner as well as a 50min 10k runner. But the elite/sub-elite will have covered a lot more ground than me, just as I would have covered more ground than the 50min 10k runner. Applying that to a marathon distance, my marathon effort will naturally be below an elite or sub-elite runners marathon effort, but above the 50min 10k runners marathon effort. Because the quicker you run it, the higher the effort can be. As such, a elite/sub-elite can run it more aggressively than you or myself, and might benefit from more aggressive shoes whereas you and I would not.
Best review in a while. I enjoy when you talk about the background side of the shows and how companies are pitching it
I feel like everyone is missing the whole logic behind the shoe design. It's not so much about pace as it is Time On Feet. Every shoe involves some sort of compromise. What Salomon is saying here is that the Phantasm is great for hitting top speed but isn't comfortable after 3:00-3:30. With the Spectur they're trying to make a shoe with as much of the Phantasm magic as they can get, but also make it comfortable for 3:30++. You could argue that Nike is doing the same basic thing with the Vaporfly/Alphafly. Vaporfly = light and fast, Alphafly = comfort. I feel like everyone has their back up against the wall when it's just a matter of different shoes for different priorities.
I think the biggest issue is the price point. They priced the shoe at 250 which is elite race day shoe pricing, if they want to make a “non elite” shoe they should have it at a lower price. It kinda feels like they’re scamming casual runners with the price point
@@Daviddiff4This is still Salomon though... they're not pricing for true gen pop.
The mechanics of running can change significantly when a runner truly goes fast; elite paces, let's say. Much different mechanics than when a runner simply tries hard, and pulls off 8:30 miles (nothing wrong with that). Effort and pace are very different things. How is that hard to understand? Yes we should all think much more about effort than pace in our own running, but these shoes are simply tools, they are NOT our running philosophy. This is about the mechanics of different speeds, not different efforts. Good job Salomon.
Exactly. Of course, with different mechanics and weights of runners, a pace-based grading system is flawed to some degree. But it isn't difficult to comprehend that faster paces require more force put into the shoe, right? And that tuning the properties of design, foam and plate to those forces could be beneficial?
I completely understand the criticism/fear of creating an elitist culture around pace, but I think the idea could have merit.
Nah, bad job Salomon (on the marketing, not the shoe design). Hard disagree. Paces and efforts are different obviously, but that’s the point with Mike’s issues. Even amongst elites, their paces/efforts are not always equivalent, and certainly affects their preferences. You just saw how Floberg and Mike running in the same shoe at wildly different paces but similar “efforts” relative to their own abilities still lead to them both liking the shoe for that purpose. Your logic says that Floberg should be running in the spectur for his easy “paces” because a shoe in your view can be tuned for pace irrespective of effort. That’s nonsense. Nobody is arguing the mechanics of every runner are the same, that’s exactly the point; there will 100% be a runner who’s far faster than a 3:30 marathoner who enjoys this shoe, just as there’s someone running 5:00 or longer despite their abilities and form being different. And it sends a bad message about gatekeeping paces and shoes for different people, when in reality it should be just their own experience that determines it.
@@kalvin. okay. we disagree 👍
@@kalvin. see, what you're saying goes off of two runners, Floberg and Mike. While I agree with you this shoe will be enjoyed by a wide range of runners, I don't see a whole lot of value in comparing a couple runner's opinions... I am more interested in science with much larger sample sizes. Let's think about this: a big difference between the s/lab Spectur and other super shoes aimed more at elites is found in the shoes reaction to force; how flexible is it, how much does it compress, how much FORCE is needed to get the most out of the shoe. So with that said, the biggest factor in how much force a runner puts into a shoe is found in the amount of POWER they are producing (the runner's height, weight, etc are small factors compared with their power output). And with that said, it is a fact that that the power produced by elites running fast paces is FAR greater than an average runner going at an extremely high effort. The slow runner's power will still be much lower than the fast runner's power, it's undeniable. So, yeah, I think there is some good science behind what Salomon is doing and I don't see it as a dividing factor or a poo poo on effort-based training by any means.
I respect the opinion of disliking pace-gatekept shoes, I can understand why it's a controversial concept, but I really dont have issue with Salomon creating this shoe for someone with different priorities on race day. Sure different priorities and different paces aren't the same, but you have to understand that a slower runner may appreciate different things in a race day shoe solely based on the amount of time they will be running. Compare a 5 hour marathoner to a 2:20 marathoner and I can almost guarantee the 2:20 marathoner will be able to tolerate an uncomfortable upper for a superior ride (alphafly 1) whereas the 5hr marathoner WILL prioritize comfort. Can speak first hand on this, I've worked in running specialty for years and have seen tons of people take off the vaporfly and other race shoes because they're too narrow and feel weird underfoot and settle for a Clifton because it fits better and is still light enough. Why not make a Clifton that's just as comfortable and just as stable optimized for racing ?? I really don't see an issue with that - the alphaflys of the world are made for people like eliud, if you think the person trying to finish their first marathon under 5hrs has the same priorities and likes the same sensation underfoot on race day as Eliud you are wildly mistaken.
people ask me frequently whether they will benefit from certain race day shoes if they are a "slower runner". and I've seen how people self define that in a number of ways.
or people will ask me if there's a cutoff at which point carbon plated racers don't work or where a runner might not get a benefit from a carbon plated racer.
and I don't usually like to put hard numbers on it so I give a range. after about the 4 or 5 hour mark, a runner will have to also consider comfort, in addition to raw performance.
so I don't think we're in disagreement on any of the central points of your comment.
Agree… i love Kofuzi videos but it has limits… Salomon Phantasm v2 (or Alphafly 3 or Adizeros Pro 3 or NB SC Elite v4… basically all so called « raced day shoe ») won’t probably be the best shoes for 4h+ marathoners. I’ve done my first marathon in Asics Superblast last year (no Carbon plate) in 3h45, and only this year I’m considering plated shoes for my next marathon (target 3h30-25)
One cannot put hard numbers on this topic with so many variables at play. In addition to gait & general biomechanics, footstrike, body type (weight, height) and more, it is far too simplified to define by just one variable. And I just added another perspective that I didn’t seen mentioned by anyone else (probably at the bottom of this thread since I’m seeing this 2 days after upload).
I have to respectfully disagree with Mike on this one. I think that some super shoes are just too much for us slower runners. An example: I bought the original Vaporflys, took them out for a test run around the track, then immediately mailed them back to Nike. They were so propulsive that I couldn’t manage them. I explained to my wife that I didn’t take the shoes for a run, the shoes took me for a run. I think I even heard them say “I am the captain now.”
I'm a University varsity XC runner, and I can tell you that the Phantasm is an INTENSE SHOE, I'm not surprised Salomon wanted a bit of a softer alternative tbh
Brilliant! Nailed the effort comparison. Adaptations from 80 mile weeks hit me this morning and had to do a double-take at my watch running easy pace. “Felt like 8:15-8:20ish” and was 7:20-7:30. 🤯 and I literally had the thought that elites running 6:00 , it feels like this to them. Effort is transferable
Coming from a Mid-Lifer! And I just dropped a longish comment throwing another factor into the mix of this effort vs pace vs time-on-feet convo, ie age-grading. After reading virtually every comment and all replies, noting that wasn’t brought up, I did it.
Agree completely. As someone really slow (five-hour more like it), I sorta like the idea of a shoe "for the rest of us." But at the same time, I am working an equivalent of hard at my race pace as someone like yourself, 2+ hours faster. And then, yeah, even if the premise wasn't flawed, we have the Endorphin Speed 3 at more than $100 less and utilizing ONLY peba. I don't necessarily love the term, "Super Trainer," but this is more like that than a true super shoe.
Watching multiple shoe reviews and interacting with sales agents in running warehouse show a common theme: Almost all super shoes have minimal stability elements and for those who train in stable shoes and want to race in stable race day shoes, options are limited.
My first race day shoes is about to arrive and I decided to go with Scott as their marketing pitch is that you can use it both in slow and faster paces. In slower paces the carbon plate stabilizes the shoe and propels you when you run faster (similar to what you are saying about this shoe).
So I think there is a market for this kind of race day shoes. I’m a newbie runner who is yet to reach the milestones needed to run a marathon under 4 hours. I would love to wear this when that day comes.
This one and the TYR Valkyrie Carbon Elite really lean into stability. I think more people would be happier running in them than super shoes that have no support.
But why would you need a particularly stable shoe? If you don't actually need any guidance for your stride, it will probably just cause harm.
I have some supination and quite strong ankles since doing quite a lot trail/off-trail running. Even most of the "natural" shoes have too much guidance for me.
@ some need them, some don’t. It’s more about building the base wider than having guidance features. Lots of runners need a wider base to feel secure especially around corners. It’s good to have options.
@@Drew.Whitcomb But if you just want to feel stable, a wide based shoe wouldn't necessarily be the best option. I hate manufacturers going really wide especially with their trail shoes intended for technical terrain, where a wide base actually puts more twisting force on your ankles.
@ I'm not talking that wide in this case. Just more than most super shoes so the body manages less of the stability. In certain models, the durometer of the foam may be a touch firmer than ZoomX or squishier super foam. Similar to how you don't want something super squishy in a trail shoe but need something protective yet still firm enough to not collapse as the trail gets more technical. Every person is different so their preferred firmness and stability will be unique. This is why I like the variety of super shoes we're getting nowadays...there's something for everyone.
Ran my first marathon in the s/lab phantasm 2. 5:30-ish. Everything on the course went sideways, from the weather to the course itself. An hour slower than my worst-case-scenario predicted time. The shoe was still one of the only things that I did not have a problem with, because I chose it based upon personal preference for the feel. I came into marathoning from the 5k world, after a rash of injuries robbed me of more of the top end speed necessary for that bit I still prefer that style of shoe. Accordingly, I 100% agree with you Kofuzi that they absolutely flubbed the marketing and how they are pitching this. My running, my choice.
That being said, I will absolutely be buying it when it comes out, because of my personal preference for Salomon shoes with how the fit and feel, and my intention to use it for longer runs, as well as potentially for races where I'm in them more for enjoying the experience overall rather than wanting to race.
Oh man. The cold temp running looks painful! Great video as always!
What's wrong with cold temperatures.
I actually enjoy running when it's below freezing. Makes everything quite a lot nicer than at around 0°C slushy conditions.
Oh my gosh, can fast runners please stop talking about "gate keeeping". I'm a slower runner, my needs are going to be different, the shoes I will pick based on time out there is going to be different, the amount of fueling I will have to consume is going to be different. I do not want to be treated like a 3 hour marathoner or an elite runner, because I'm not! My body is not the same, my needs are not the same. It isn't gate keeping, they are trying to be inclusive.. and here are all these fast runners on RUclips saying, don't do it, don't create these shoes. The more options, the better. I'm not offended by companies creating shoes for slower runners, I am slower! I'm not delusional. And I can improve a lot more when I acknowledge my running level and abilities. I'm slower, and I'd offensive that youtubers think that it's gate keeping to say that those who run at slower paces dont need different things. I'm guessing my power out put is not the same as someone who a lot faster than me, so the shoe is probably going to feel different, and if I am out on a course for 2 more hours than others, I probably am going to want a shoe with more cushion. So there's my rant. Haha. I'm glad you don't want to discriminate, but I don't think that more options is discriminating.
Yeah lots of speed shoes just don't feel good at slower paces.
Bravo! I totally agree you don’t need to be elite to wear “elite” shoes. Salomon has made a huge mistake with this marketing ploy.
I absolutely agree. I’m stoked that they created this shoe with the needs of slower runners in mind. Even if I end up choosing to go with a more traditional race day shoe for a race I can still myself getting a ton of value during training out of this shoe.
Couldn’t agree more. I’m 5’10”, 170lbs and have a VERY heavy tread. God did not bless me with speed at all. I hate hearing RUclipsrs say they’re “non-elite”… if you can run a marathon in under three hours, you’re elite to me! Heavier, slower people who like to run need options too!!!
Couldn’t agree more! I bought a Nike Vaporfly 2…. I can’t wear it… it literally hurts me…. Options for slow runners are needed that aren’t just high cushion plodders
Damn! Kofu dropping the gauntlet today. haha. Great to see a different side of you. I'm a 9-10 min pace guy and agree that the price point on this bad boy is way off the mark. Thanks for the honest review!
Don’t get an opportunity to watch often however great respect for what you do for global running community.
Recently ran HM in Specter at 6:57 p/m. I’m 65 yo with diabetes and Parkinson’s. I find most if not all running shoe manufacturers to be deceitful and condescending to general public with their marketing. I ran HM in all super carbon race shoes, this is as good as any. I purchased the Specter at 45% discount.
Good morning. A sincere review. Like from Spain 🇪🇸. Have a nice day.
As a runner, who also works in running retail - I appreciate this take. I don't want to "size up" anyone.
I have to disagree with Kofuzi on this one. If this shoe works best at squishing and then springing between certain contact times with the pavement, then go and publish those facts. Who here knows their contact time? I don't see anyone raising their hands. How many of you know your ballpark race pace? Okay now I see hands raised. Knowing this means you'll know if this shoe works best for you. I applaud Soloman for not trying to make you fall in love with any shoe they produce because the marketing department has no problems doing that
The only way you’ll know if this shoe works for you is by trying it on and testing it yourself.
Ko throwing down! Love it. Thanks for having a voice for the consumer.
I'm a slower runner (certainly way slower than 8min/mile for a marathon) and I find the concept of making a race shoe for slower runners interesting. I could never wear a Vaporfly for 4+ hours.. ouch. While I understand your points I don't really feel like it was intended as gatekeeping on their part and more so to encourage slower runners to spend a ton of money on a carbon plated shoe just like speedy runners do?! 😂💸I'm actually intrigued.. but not willing to spend that kind of money on one pair of shoes tbh 😅
Understand Kofuzi’s reasoning, but what he calls patronising/gate-keeping is such common practice that it’s rarely questioned in other sports/domains. Best example: balls & game-improvement irons/blades in golf. There, too, it’s to do with physics & speeds: a good player simply hits the ball differently. Sure, no one should tell 28-handicapper they can’t buy certain stuff, but it may not be best for their game or pocket.
Yeah, I agree that it’s just an acknowledgment the needs of elite runners and relatively new/slow runners are completely different. Both in regard to the amount of time they’ll be in the shoe, and the runner’s biomechanics. Stride length, cadence, landing and toe-off are all likely to be completely different, so obviously a shoe that works well for one will not necessarily work well for the other.
Having said that, I think most buyers will choose a shoe that suits the pace that they aspire to rather than what will suit their current ability.
Mixed feelings on this. To fully utilize unforgiving high end equipment in technique dependent sports, you have to train on it.
If you are learning classic XC skiing, you might get rough weight transfer, balance, and physical fitness from a pair of touring skis. However, you won't get a good feel for the finer aspects of weight transfer and properly depressing the cambered glide region of a pair of race skis to go fast efficiently.
For golf, I suspect that having too unforgiving a set of clubs can stunt your growth as a player by not punishing flaws as much.
Good points. Lots of amateur marathoners approach training not really sure what their race day pace will be weeks and weeks out. A speed limit on shoes is dumb.
Loved your thoughts on the whole pace based idea. Totally agree with you btw
Absolutely agree with your comments about pace-based shoes. I think this is the reason you're the only shoe reviewer I follow on RUclips - so many others talked about shoes feeling better or worse at a certain pace as if the shoe could tell that you were doing X mins/mile rather than Y mins/mile.
It's not about the shoe knowing 🤔, the way the shoe's Foams and plates respond to the pressures and forces applied to it is how the shoe interacts with you that's important, the biomechanics and forces are different for different paces and thus to get the best return at certain paces shoes should be tuned somewhat differently, just because a shoe works the best at fast speeds doesn't mean it's ideal at slower speeds, if anything the bigger the difference the worse it'll likely get.
@@Henri-jm9cz But wouldn't the force be (approximately) the same if my 10k pace was 5:00/mi or 9:00/mi? Or are we saying that faster runners always put more force into a step than slower runners?
I assume the answer is much more nuanced than my question, but if I've understood Kofuzi's point correctly, a shoe's purpose is intended to be the same whether you're going to be running faster or slower - an easy day shoe is an easy day shoe whether your easy pace is faster than most run a 5k, or barely above a walk
@@philipwood7673 no, the forces are definetly completely different and quite nuanced, and this is about race day shoes not everyday sort of trainers, we're comparing Salomons race day pinnacle shoe, the spectur a race day shoe for slower paces and all the other race shoes out there. The top race shoes are 1000% tuned specifically for performance at those sorts of top speeds, why would they not? Why would they put any thought into how it'll feel doing a 3.5-4hr marathon
@@Henri-jm9cz I'll freely admit I am no expert, so I'm probably wrong. I had just assumed that largely it would be the same for runners at their relative efforts across the spectrum of paces. I take your point that race shoes are ultimately designed for the elites and so are probably optimised for that sort of pace
I wish it was cooler here in my country too. Running in chilly weather with cozy outfits just looks cool, just like your outfit!
It’s not. 😂 it’s just cold 😂
Kofuzi, great reasoning for explaining why race paced shoes are gate keepers. Well done.
Surely for shoes the pace at which they’re being used matters more than the user’s effort, no?
If you’re running faster, you have different biomechanics that the shoes need to be designed for than if your running slower, regardless of the effort your exerting to achieve that speed - therefore pace-based design/marketing makes sense. This is why we have super shoes where it’s actually uncomfortable going slow.
Am I missing something obvious?
No. You are totally right.
some anecdotes:
1) I once saw a Nike pro pace a marathon pace group (I want to say it was Grant Fisher and a 2:50 pace group). The racers were in carbon plated racers. And if what you say is true, then the pro athlete probably should have been in vaporflys to feel comfortable.
but he was chillin in his Pegs, as that pace would be about what his easy long run pace would be
2) just before the marathon trials, Emily Sisson posted a reel about her easy run and HR tracking using her Coros watch. the reel showed Emily running easy in a daily trainer (Rebel 4, I believe). at the end of the run, she posted her stats. 7.5 miles at pace: ~7:00/mi.
for me to run that, the NB shoe I would pick would be the SC Elite 4 but Emily was chillin in her Rebels (HR 119bpm).
@@kofuziI think the big difference is that yes, while they might be using those shoes as they are at their easy training paces and not their harder race paces, this doesn't change the benefit they would get from using a better race day shoe at those paces they are doing in your examples, us slower runners can't sustain or even do those paces. If anything they are likely specifically training in something less to help them keep better foot strength and really gain the benefits when it comes to race day. For us slower runners we simply cannot utilise the top super shoes to their full potential at the paces we go at, so why spend the money on them, that's where the spectur comes in. Sure a conversation can be had about the cost of these shoes from saloman, but that is a different topic.
Shoe performance isn't necessarily about speed as it is about running geometry. As people near their higher paces, they tend to move forward a bit more onto their toes. That will be different PACE but comparable % EFFORT. Your geometry/ gait cycle matters more than the actual pace number.
she's also less than 100lbs@@kofuzi .. body weight, pace and time on feet matter in these scenarios. Someone like me who is 230 lbs and runs a 10 min mile should never be in an Alphafly 3 for example.
Interesting thought Kofuzi about pace based shoes. I agree with you... it's like a car, even though I drive slow on average of 80mph doesn't mean I shouldn't buy Ferrari 😅
I appreciate your perspective on this, and I'm on the same page in terms of the democratization of running and saying no to gatekeeping. However! What I thought of when I heard about this shoe was an interview on Believe in the Run's "The Drop" podcast recently, where a physical therapist said that carbon-plated supershoes may actually be detrimental to slower runners, causing them to spring more up and/or back, rather than forward. If true it might mean that encouraging a 9-minute/mile marathoner to wear one could slow them down or lead to injury. Granted, it was one physio and I don't know how much research there is on this narrow use case, but I think it's worth considering when it comes to a shoe like this.
I think that’s a good point but it comes up most often in conversations about wearing CP shoes all the time (during training, not just racing). I personally only use my CP race shoe on races other than one good test run if the pair is new.
Every time I watch your videos you make me feel I made the right choices. 👍
This is a bit of an overreaction, I think. I feel like it is totally possible that the needs of an elite runner at race “effort” could totally be different than an average runner running at race “effort,” even if that may be hard to define. Would this perform better than an alphafly for 4 hour marathoner, not specifically in terms of time, but other aspects of their experience, including comfort or injury-prevention? Given the materials and design, would it perform better than running in a daily trainer/max cushion shoe for those runners also? If so, I think it would be a successful shoe.
The other reason I think this is an overreaction is that I prefer when a shoe company offers their reasoning and recommendations for a shoe. Especially if that is a critical component to its design. If ASICS didn’t tell me what the difference between the meta speed sky+ and edge+ were, I’d be totally lost. As a truly non-elite runner, I would be happy for a running shoe salesman to tell me about the potential benefits of a race day shoe designed for slower runners. I would not feel patronized and I would still be capable of making my own decisions. So, not gatekeeping.
I really like these really great reviews from someone clearly highly knowledgeable and invested in shoe technology, but I think a company trying to improve race performance for a person like me is not a bad idea on the face of it.
This is one of the best running shoe reviews I think I've ever seen.
Finally a shoe review that saves me money vs makes me spend! Or wait, does it?!?!?!? I'm a 7:11/mile marathoner. Where do it fit? Maybe at NB. Waiting on the Pacer V2..LOL
The thing with this Salomon and Diadora’s new running line is you are also paying for how good the shoes look
Let’s be honest, these smaller euro brands still nail styling and aesthetics better than the larger brands
Gotta admit, this is a beautiful shoe design that isn’t overly busy or bright neon colors or hideous pastels
it does look nice
I 100% agree with you, Mike. I fit the 3:40 demographic for this shoe (don't judge me, I'm 61); but as a design engineer, it's befuddling how a shoe is designed for a specific pace range. I get that later in a race, a non-elite runner might need more support as the form breaks down. But that happens to most runners.
I know you have no ill will at all, so I am not judging you, but this is the type of sort of casual gatekeeping that the sport can have sometimes. Almost like unconscious bias type of thing. Again, I know there's no malice in your comment and this is not meant to be a "beef" type of thing... BUT... I am 20 years younger and more than an hour slower. Tons of reasons for it, but in the end, the reasons don't really matter. Me finishing in five is working just as hard as you finishing in 3:40 from an effort perspective.
Now, every sport has this. The sort of barriers, right? When I was powerlifting, getting the four-plate squat was a big deal. And within 90 seconds of hitting that, you start thinking about 500 and that you need a better belt or shoes or whatever as compared to the kid just starting that's squatting the bar. Hell, he/she may be trying harder than I am.
Because most RUclips shoe reviewers are faster than me, I am perpetually having to interpret their shoe reviews based on my personal attributes including height, weight, and marathon race pace. It should be uncontroversial to say that different runners generate differing forces making different shoes better for different runners and purposes. As for condescension and gatekeeping, I would be unlikely to purchase from or return to a store whose sales people attempted to shame me into purchasing shoes that don't work for me. I certainly do agree that there is no reason to pay $250 for the Spectur just because Solomon has classified it as being a race shoe when, as you point out, there are many equally good options available for less money. I may look at the Spectur when it goes on sale, even if I have become a sub-3:00 marathoner by then. 😉
I would walk out of a shoe store where the staff is “gatekeeping”. There may be a fine line between offering informed advice and gatekeeping. At my favorite running store I overhear conversations between staff and customers coming in, explaining their needs and receiving advice in return. In a good store, the staff will bring out a LOT of options and not restrict customers from trying whatever they want. Even unsolicited advice is acceptable if delivered respectfully. I think what Kofuzi dislikes here is the over-defining of a shoe model in advance of reaching the consumer, which could backfire for the company, given the huge range and number of variables between us runners. I’m not sure it’s condescending in itself, but it certainly seems non-productive. Stereotyping a runner who is big/heavy, eg., and comes into a store looking for shoes could indeed by condescending.
My fav part of these reviews is when you do 1st grade subtraction to determine the forefoot stack and I get excited because I know what the answer will be
Same here 😂
Pace based makes complete sense. I think it’s clearly a bruise on one’s ego if they’re told they are too slow for effort. Regardless of “effort” science is science and if a shoe isn’t designed for you then you don’t need it. If you want to be able to wear the shoe that badly then get faster…sounds harsh but being told you’re slower shouldn’t offend you
Spot on about the shoe sales person sizing you up as far a certain shoes for speed. I went back to an athletic shoe store I had previously managed. I was in mid 30', actually most of PRs coming in the next few years. The store Nike's sock racer very fast shoe. The kid cam over and said " oh, you don't want those shoes, that's for fast runners. The manager not much better. My PR around then for 5K was 15:27. Jus grabbed the sock racers and paid for them. I could hear him talking to the manafer: I told him those were for fast guys.
Another great video.. Recommendations on point and honest. Love it.
All valid criticisms. A great shoe surrounded by a brand's curious marketing and pricing choices.
This is the unfortunate truth of the underlying of the running world.
I am 6.2 and weigh 230. Everyone I go into a “running shoe store” I’m always thrown into ultra max cushion shoes or non elite running shoes. Not everyone’s approach is like this but for the most part there are the “upper elite” running class of folks. Keep positive my sir. Thanks
So you are heavy, but are you a strong runner? Do you have strong feet and do you run fast with a decent stride?
Have you had any good experiences with "elite runners shoes" with stiff carbon plates?
In my opinion heavier runners with strong feet might benefit from stiff carbon plates at slower paces than a lightweight elite runner.
@ I am heavy but light footed due to my futbol/ basketball past life. I love anything with a carbon plate due to my tendinitis and the fact that they are a great option for taller and or bigger runners.
Tbh, I think we are overcomplicating the argument. The truth is that people who are running marathons in the 3 hour, 4 hour, 5 hour pace range benefit from having certain elements built into a shoe that can protect them and accommodate them more over the course of a race, compared to people running more efficiently and with better mechanics.
While people can absolutely research shoes and materials that they find appealing, experts at running stores will always make recommendations based on what they think will work best for an athlete. It’s not about gatekeeping, it’s about democratizing the market. A more aggressive, stiffer shoe is not the right fit for everyone, and having a top of the line shoe that accommodates people that can use more room, support, and flexibility isn’t a bad thing.
All the manufacturer is doing is pointing people in the right direction and creating a product that people can excited about. Ultimately, people are free to buy whatever they want, and no outfitter at any running store I’ve been to has ever said “Ew, no, you’re too slow for that shoe.” It’s always about making good recommendations based on observations.
You tell em, Ko! Hope to see more vids similar to this! Cheers!
I don’t enjoy making negative videos
I don’t agree with your view, shoes should be pace based, people going at 8/mile have completely different technique and weight than people going at 6/mile and this is something that should be teach or explained to the average runner.
You are “allowed” to run in super shoes or whatever you want if you go at 8/mile but it’s probably not what it’s best for you!
thank you for taking the time to write
Got the Puma Deviate Nitro 2 for £90 in the U.K., great shoe for training and Puma Grip handles our wet weather like a champ.
this title really got me lmao. love this man
Totally agree on the pace shoe concept, thanks for your righteous indignation. Your legal education serves you well in this oral argument.
Interesting debate! I agree that folks should be free to buy whatever shoes they want, and Salamon's marketing here is a bit odd. I don't agree with the premise that my easy or hard effort is the same as everyone else's though. Yes, effort level is similar but the amount of energy that I'm putting into a shoe as a mid-packer is very different from that of someone at the front or someone nearer the back of the pack, so the same shoe will likely react in different ways.
Love the nuance and perspectives you usually bring, but I feel like a disagree strongly with you on this one 🙈 Which is fine of course, and this could be an interesting discussion! I look at it like this: for a shoe to work for you, time on feet (comfort) and a match with your mechanics (geometry) matter the most. For elite runners, these two things are different: they spend less time on their feet (so comfort is less important) and they run much faster with mechanics that we normal people don’t use over that race distance. On average, mechanics change with pace. A ‘slower’ runner working really hard (say, zone 5 to run a 5:00 min km) simply doesn’t run with the same mechanics as an elite runner working in zone 5 (probably closer to a 2:30 pace). So both probably prefer a different geometry for their zone 5 work, even though they’re working equally hard. The vaporfly was designed for elite marathoners, but turns out to be a very popular 5 km shoe for the average human. Why do you think that is?
Switching to the marathon: elites spend a little bit over 2 hours running 3:00 min per km pace. That’s both in duration and mechanics a world apart from someone running a 4 hour marathon. The latter will prefer more comfort and probably a different, less agressive geometry.
The word ‘probably’ is important here: it is of course ultimately individual. But I think it is inclusive to design a shoe that has all the supershoe features, but on average caters to slower paces due to a tailored geometry and some added comfort. Now people can choose. Nobody says they’re not allowed to get the supershoe designed for elites. At least they can choose now and there’s a shoe that offers all that supershoe technology in a design that isn’t tailored for the very few elite runners, but runners like the most of us. I think that’s a great thing!
Right but does Salomon say that this shoe will improve a 4 hour marathoner’s time more so than an alphafly or their own Phantasm 2? If it doesn’t then the point is moot, because then it’s just about preference and comfort and that has nothing to do with pace on its own. If we all had the same mechanics, body composition, and health then it would be easy to account for pace. But that’s not the case.
@@kalvin.I think that's exactly the point: it's individual how you respond to a shoe. It's impossible to claim that a shoe improves economy for everyone with the same amount (or equally that it gives a bigger advantage than any other shoe). To say something about averages, a properly big scientific study is needed. This has been done for some of the super shoes and there's a clear trend that the average gains in economy diminish as the pace goes down. I don't remember the range of the study, but the 4% average increase at elite paces reduced to about 1% average for slower paces.
So designing a shoe that has the specific mechanics of slower (i.e. more normal) runners in mind makes sense. At least for some of them it'll be a better shoe (which means that they individually respond better to it).
The whole idea here is not to design a shoe that slower runners HAVE to use, but to add another one to the choices available. And because this shoes has been designed specifically to mechanics that are more representative of the way they run, there's a good chance that it actually might work for them.
@@swenderich I’ll agree with you about making more shoes better for more people, but I believe you have the study backwards on running economy. There’s been results indicating the super shoes provide far more benefit for slower runners as they offer technology to improve running economy more so than elites who already have near peak running economy and need the marginal, 4% gains
Agreed. At $250, they're saying this is a better shoe than something like the Endorphin Pro 4 and equivalent to the Adios Pro 3? Pretty bold. I think a lot of slower runners would probably do well in a nice plated trainer that comes in at the $160-$180 retail price.
When you are an elite runner, it is hard to relate to a more average runner that requires more stability.
Even though my feet are neutral, running shoes like the Vaporfly are soooo aggressive and thin in the back that the instability causes a lot of pain in the heel area for me and many others
Also, for me, carbon-plated running shoes are significantly more comfortable and reduce foot pain ... compared to non carbon-plated running shoes
For the average runner, there are very few options that are not sooo aggressive, and unstable in the heel area with a carbon plate...
They got it right ... your perspective is an echo chamber of elite professional runners
I think I have failed in communicating one aspect of my complaints with this shoe. I will try to be more concise:
Other shoes already exist that do what this shoe does and they do it much cheaper.
E.g. Puma Deviate Nitro 2. Saucony Endorphin Speed 4. Adidas Boston 12.
Also, please let me know if you’ve bought this shoe.
I think you are taking this the wrong way. Not everyone is a shoe expert walking into a shoe store. I think it is helpful when you have shoe salesman guiding those who are not as informed on each type of shoe. ( Or having a website that is guiding the way) A lot of people do not have the time to obsess over shoes like some of us so I think its great that they are trying to inform choice with their money. Just my thoughts as a slower runner.
I think what Solomon’s goal wasn’t necessarily looking at pace or effort, but looking at time on feet during a marathon. A slower runner is going to be on their feet for 4+ hours in their shoes, vs a more “elite” or “faster” runner who’s on their feet for 2.5-3.5 hours. The shoe has to be able to maintain its resiliency for a longer duration of time, hence the dual density foams, a plate that’s more of a stabilizing element, and an upper that aims more at comfort than lightweight speed. It’s built for being in the shoes longer. That being said, as a slower runner, would I pick this shoe for a marathon? Nope. I’d much rather pick Asics Superblast or Asics Glideride 3. I could actually create a list of shoes I’d rather make a marathon attempt in. To be honest, I’ve ran a half marathon in the Adidas Adios Pro 3, the Asics Superblast, and Asics Nimbus 25 in similar conditions last year, and the difference between them was minimal and actually set my fastest time in the Superblast between the 3. My PR for the half was in the Asics Glideride V1. To me, this shows efficiency for me as a slower runner is more important than any of the fancy tech to help with propulsion. I also see both shoes as very resilient shoes, handling my weight and pace for extended periods of time. I see what they are trying to do… but the marketing manager in me is screaming at the shoe company people for being so terrible at explaining these things… like the Asics SPEED line of shoes. Ask me about that.
Gloves off on this review, I love it.
Hey Kofuzi, I was wondering if you can back up the reasoning of “hard effort sensations being consistent across paces” with research? To me, faster paces are (with all other variables constant) inherently related to more force, therefore the impact on the shoe is definitely different, right?
With that said, I also do think that pro opinions matter less than we think, because of their mileage and pace being incomparable to most normal runners. We also see it with aerobikes in cycling; most gains are marginal if you’re not going 40kmu+. But luckily they still sell like hot cakes, and that’s okay.
no research, just vibes. I think I can say the same the other way, as well.
I am unaware of any research that indicates that 6:50/mi pace for a sub 5 minute per mile marathoner feels the same as 6:50/mi for me, when it comes to which shoes feels right.
Every time I walk into a running store, I preface my interactions with something like “Hey there! I’m slow as hell.” I would have no problem being sized up. I’d love to see what other brands would come up with if they specifically targeted us Clydesdales in their product development and marketing.
From material science point of view, the damping and spring performance of rubber material do depend of the frequency of cyclic loading and unloading. So, it is not completely out of question that the mid sole rubber can be "tuned" to have peak performance at a certain cadence, i.e. tailored to a certain running pace. Having said that, Salomon without publishing the frequency response curve of their mid sole material, we cannot know whether it is for real or just a marketing thing.
I'm curious. How much can we also ascribe to a runners weight when determining the right shoe for the job? My assumption is even an equally paced runner may have significantly different experiences with the same shoe just by being taller/heavier. If that's wrong then disregard but if not then is pace alone a very good measurement by itself for prescribing a particular shoe?
@@derringera Absolutely. Stack height is a limiting factor. A heavy set runner may bottom out the foam compression during ground contact. But besides weight, there are so many other factors such as running form (forefoot , mid foot or heel strike) and idividual's biomechanics. At the end of the day, finding the right pair of shoes is still a very subjective thing. Unfortunately for us average runners with very average wallet size, we cannot just buy and try everything until we find something that works.
@@dumbcurse Thanks a bunch for sharing! I was just in the market to replace my daily trainers last week and asking many of these questions.
Hey Kofuzi! Another great review!!! How would you compare this shoe with the New Balance SC Trainer V1? They look very similar… and I loved the SC Trainer v1… it would be great to hear from you
From a subjective perspective, what you’re saying makes sense. From a performance perspective, what they’re trying to do makes sense. Both are true.
There is overlap in the Venn diagram for sure
If you think about what a shoe has to deliver, pace is more relevant than perceived effort.
I think that stiffness/flexibility & geometry dictates what kind of pace/stride/effort/weight a shoe is good for.
A really heavy and strong runner might outrun a shoe before a faster and lighter runner, even if the pace wouldn't be as fast.
On the other hand a weak light slow runner might be doing his maximum effort and still not getting the most out of a shoe.
The Salomon S/Lab Hobby-Jogger 🏃 😅
Great Review Ko! I must add that these shoes are not machine dryable!
😂
220 lbs here, not very fast, and I must say Adidas Pro 2, Takumi Sen 8, Vaporfly 2 and S Lab Pulsar 2, are my favorites. I dont think its possible to make a pace based or even runner bodytype shoe. Maybe its an excuse to sell a super trainer for the price of a race shoe. Luckily Salomon is the best company at lowering prices.
I appreciate your opinion.
I wonder if there are any 8-10min milers out there who take offense to this marketing? Because I’m one of them and I think it’s great. It’s a “super” shoe with advanced technology that is targeted to a different pace than traditional “super” shoes. 🤷🏼♂️
I spent years in that pace range for my marathons
This was also at the dawn of the supershoe era where people would for sure pace check you for even thinking about buying a pair of vaporfly 4%
I would have been offended then and I’m bothered by it now
But, to be fair to your post, I would love to hear more thoughts on this from the people this shoe is targeted towards
@@kofuzi I am also in this category and I'm really happy they made this shoe! I've found pace really does make a difference---the Cloudmonster was a great example of this for me. Didn't make sense at 6min/km I normally run at, but when I started running the 4:30/km pace that the reviewers who loved it were running at, the shoe came into its own. 4:30 is their super easy pace. 6 is mine. Simply on a technical level, to run faster either cadence or stride length have to change and that will affect how a shoe performs. If I were to push the point, I'd suggest it's the other way around. Slower runners like myself have gotten into the habit of wanting what elite athletes wear and end up risking injury because of it. We should always have choice and no-one should be judged---I completely agree there---but if a company wants to provide me with a beautifully made shoe that provides the excitement of race day with the protection required for someone running more hours with technique that falls apart pretttty quick, I'm all for it. Love what you do and thanks for everything!
@@kofuzii'm also a slower runner targeting 1:50 HM.
I tried a lot a shoes and i really can tell that some of the "supertrainers" work only at faster paces for me.
The deviate nitro 2, prime X Strung 2, Superblast etc needs a minimum pace to really "work".
With the prime x 2, I was struggling to really land and go fluidly at lower pace to hm pace. I discovered the magic of the shoe the day I took them for fast intervals. I was just like "oh okay, this is how it's supposed to shine". Too fast of a shoe for me, and actually i would be glad if someone would have told me that beforehand !
On a more global scale, I would Say that the average mechanics of all runners are more similar at a distinct pace than at a distinct effort.
Your stride AT easy pace doesn't look like mine, which doesn't look like athlete. But maybe you, I and Kipchoge share a similar stride at 5:00/km. And I guess engineers at Salomon designed the shoes with that in mind. Who could blame them ? It's better than an Alphafly 2 made only to fiit the best of the best of marathon runners...
I'm actually very interested in this shoe as slower runners are often forgotten when WE are looking for performance shoes.
Do you think the stability nature of this shoe might be better for longer time on the road? (Regardless of pace or speed) would it be a more comfortable shoe for a 4-5 hour effort whether that be a marathon or if your faster something longer? I have wondered with longer time on feet if different shoes might suit people better.
I've long advised that, at a certain point, runners may want to consider comfort of their race day shoes, in addition to raw performance. but that's up to the runner, and I won't put a speed limit on it
plus, I think that great options for that runner already exist that don't cost $250
Completely agree re: pace based marketing. Seems like Salomon has always separated their customers - S/Lab intended for the speedsters (also narrower) and not for plodders like me.
And I think you’re absolutely right on the impact of the marketing - salespeople will screen (intentionally or not) consumers and pass on judgement. That is problematic.
I think it only requires a slight tweak in language and a big change in pricing and the shoe is fixed.
Not an easy change, but to me, the answer is clear
@@kofuzi let’s hope they’re listening. They have seemed somewhat responsive (except for the dead Ultraglide foam persisting).
I wil buy this shoe! If I find it discounted for sub 200€. So hopefully by the end of the year.
Mizuno does the same with their new Wave Rebellion Pro 2 which is for the sub 2.30 runners. So If I go to a shoe retailer to buy that shoe do I need to prove that I can run that speed otherwise I'm not allowed to buy that shoe?
I'd happily buy another brand!
As someone who is slow, I just ran the Austin Marathon in the Rebellions Pro 2s and loved the experience (I didn't enjoy bonking as I screwed up my nutrition but that's another story). I didn't find out about the pace recommendations until I looked at Mizuno's Japanese website after the race. So I'm glad ignorance is bliss - I don't know if I'd second guess my purchase if I knew that beforehand.
I highly recommend the Pro 2s as a race shoe if you're a midfoot striker, regardless of your pace.
It would be funny if they made you run on a treadmill to prove you are fast enough to buy a shoe
The other side of the coin (and this happens a lot) people end up buying too much shoe for what their running style is. When I started running 2 and a half years ago, especially being an obese runner, I would have liked a bit more direction on what shoes to get. In the stores, they want to get you in the latest and greatest but after about 4-6 months of wearing the shoes, they are all beat up and usually, due to weak ankles, the shoe foam is usually crushed inward towards the arch. I think it's perfectly fine for a company to say, if you're in this speed range, this shoe will probably work best for you as it provides more value for your dollar. I think I've wasted a good $1500 dollars on shoes that were recommended by reviewers as a "must have" shoe.
Now that I'm a better runner, lost a ton of weight and, have a better running style and cadence, the shoes that were recommended to me then would probably work better for me now. Too bad they are ruined 😃. Try not to think of the shoes as being restricted but more as a shoe that is openly accessible.
Kofuzi, what are your thoughts on the Salomon Xt4 and XT6?
I'm not familiar
I really wanted to like these but the tongue kinda killing the sleek vibes.
Might still consider if I can find a pair in store to try on.
Would you size down at all? Heard these run a little “long”
Salomon tongues are almost always weird. It’s almost becoming a charming quirk of the brand
Although I agree that pace based shoes can be seen as patronising. No one is complaining about the other end of the spectrum. I don’t see any shoe reviewer complaining about Mizuno who openly says the rebellion pro was designed for sub 3hr marathon runners
I'm not sure I recall seeing that. The Adios Pro Evo 1 had language indicating that it wasn't intended for runners slower than 3:30. And I thought the Cloudboom Echo 3 had some sort of pace language on it too.
Those situations feel different to me than this. I'm not sure I can really delineate why, though. I'll have to think more about this.
Doctors of Running discuss this topic (super shoes for 4:00+ marathoners) and basically what it all comes down to is: is the shoe comfortable for you, does it work with your biomechanics, and does its comfort hold up over 26.2 miles. There’s nothing magical about pace-based shoes and there are far too many other factors to consider. Every runner is different and there may be better options that aren’t these aggressive carbon-plated super foam shoes. For me, I’m trying to crack 4 hours and I am enjoying running in the Adios Pro 3 for my marathon pace and faster pace workouts. It works for me. So, with all that, Salomon’s big problem here isn’t the shoe itself, but how they’re positioning it and what they’re charging for it. $250? You can get two pairs of Speed 3s on sale for basically that price, and as Kofuzi points out, they’re not that dissimilar from the Spectur. Thanks for the review and for repping the “common person” runner!
I feel this is one of the smartest comments on an obviously very interesting discussion triggered by this review. The notion of pace-based shoe selection has been controversial, complex and confusing. In my case, I’m a fast-for-age runner. I started running late and now in my early 70’s I’m running Boston annually because I requalify there every year. My age-graded finish time is around 2:45, which means my effort is theoretically comparable to that. However, my fastest finish there was still over 4:00. So how do I factor this into shoe choices? I see so many comments saying things like “if you don’t run a sub 3 marathon why would you bother buying a super shoe” or “it’s a waste…” etc. Yet virtually all my competitive finishers in my age group are wearing CP super shoes. 2 years ago I used the Endo Speed; last year I switched to the Endo Pro3 and had an 18:00 PR (though obviously there were other bigger factors involved). It was the 1st CP race shoe that felt natural to me. I just tried the AF3 and sent it back (even though I got it at a nice discount from my running store) because I doubt I’m getting out of it what I should and don’t want to risk it on an A race. I think your point is the wisest and I write similar comments frequently: Everyone needs to try on shoes for themselves to determine what works for them, for whatever reason. Never buy a shoe based solely on a review or reviewer you like. Great reviewers like Ko help you narrow down what you’re interested in, but ultimately you need to go a brick and mortar store-ideally-and see how they work for you. Most independent stores will let you return shoes and no one but the manufacturer loses a dime. (And Nike probably loses a pittance in my case!). Good luck to both of us trying to crack 4:00!
They could easily have classified it as a super trainer with the ability to take it to race day & no-one would have blinked.
Price is a problem, depending on where your money comes from.
Still eyeing them off though. I want to run in a pair of stormtroopers…
NO Mike. I am angry at what you are angry about! 😄
Finally, some company did think of ME ! A non athlete, new runner who knows nothing and NEEDS a clear guide to select a shoe for his dream marathon!
That's me 🙋♂️ (in the corner...;)
My 1st race pace was EXACTLY at 8!
Moreover, this is exactly where Saucony messed up with SPEED against PRO!
Making it more casual (against its name) rather promoting them as 2 RACE options. Same EFFORT not exactly the same PACE.
See the picture?
Sure, I see yours - million miles in hundreds of shoes - no one will tell you what you NEED best. 🤷♂️
You no longer need guide!
You are our guide !
Don't be angry (not @me, @Salomon)
I would be more than happy they did guide us too.
Final choice is still in my hands, and 💶 is the guide #1. I must finally get these Pumas until they realise they can ask 250!!!
I like getting options, regardless if they are labelled as being for certain speeds or strides (Metaspeed), but as you say there is no standard runner, I for example feel that supershoes work despite my at best mediocre speed because my weight engages them more than a lighter runner would at the same speed. That being said 250 for a shoe with a lot of EVA is a bit steep, I really like my Tempo next % or Deviate 2 but I would not pay 250 for them.
I love that! Well said 6:00
Spectur has similar concept as Asics S4. However, the S4 is limited for the Japanese market, so there aren't many English reviews on RUclips
I don't review shoes that aren't sold in the US
Its all marketing buzz to get more market and more salles... imo good idea but also agree it looks like good speed day option with race day price tag
I appreciate Grips #2-3, but personally can't agree with #1. I think the physiological difference in pace "Fast" versus pace "Average" is apparent even if perceived effort is identical. I mean, I love your approach to send people to similar shoes that aren't priced so high (the Speed 3 IS great!). But all the same I think Salomon is within their rights here. Where was the vitriol for Hoka's Cielo or the litany of Prime X etc. which are also, by your historical measure not ideal for racing, but super fun and worth buying for shoe heads? Smh.
Did you argue much in your attorney days, because damn that was superbly terse and potent advocacy for your point of view. Saved plenty of time for rebuttal.
always reserve time
you got me with the click bate - ha ha. Well said Sir
I’m not sure it’s click bait. It is a great shoe. And I don’t recommend it (at the $250 price point)
It was bate for me - great shoe don't buy. I was busy on a report but just had to read
Can you please do a comparison to the TYR Valkyrie ? As non Big brand competitors for those looking for alternatives, thanks much
Well, you made that clear, alright!
Those sunglasses are 🔥 What brand are they?
Blenders
I realy don't think its a problem of you are allowed to or not, when choosing a shoe. I think, I see what salomon is doing here. As a beginner in the marathon distance, from what I have heard from a lot of sources is, that a supershoe only starts to make sense when you are rather fast and more of a neutral runner. As for myself I do need a little stability, so from what you told, it seems that this shoe could be a good pick for me. It's pricy thoug. I'd love to see a video from you on what racing shoes you'd recromend for people with stability needs.
there really aren't any stability racing shoes, per se. some tempo day shoes and race day shoes are more stable than others though.
the ones that I recommended as alternatives to this shoe would be great places to start.