I'm heavy...so there's no way I'm standing for a hill that long..maybe a short bump/rise in the road that lasts 5 seconds if I'm feeling extra energetic..maybe.
I prefer seated ,with a higher cadence, i can endure more of the climb than standing, as my back starts to hurt. Have to commend you doing that climb in that weather with the traffic on your backside!
I think you missed something.. I find that getting out of the saddle isn't a preferred method of climbing, and I can tell it's less efficient, but it's a bit of a reset. Ideally, I'm in the saddle and spinning at say 82 rpm.. But after an extended period, that sort of repetition really feels like it juices my legs up with lactic acid and upshifting a gear or two and getting out of the saddle and engaging different muscles at a different tempo allows me to "reset" and return to the more efficient seated position rejuvenated and more comfortable. (Also its a nice break on the rear end)
I'm with you on this too. Even if standing for just 5 or 10 seconds, it breaks up the monotony and gives those muscle groups a break for quick recovery. Plus I believe in that standing and using your body weight for more wattage gives a bit of a power boost while recovering at the same time.
Agree, also with the replies. I would also add that the slope is not constant. When you reach a steeper section and need more torque, you can also get out of the saddle to maintain the pace without shifting.
More Hank’s dad, please! He’s the best. Would legit love a video series teaching Hank’s dad about beginner cycling, *including* how to stand while climbing (well, assuming he’s up for that 😂).
Your reaction is what this video was trying to achieve I suspect. Apart from Hank's dad, the content is a bit too lightweight to be taken seriously. Nevertheless standing vs. sitting uphill is still a good question.
Pantani was my absolute hero and as such, I was an 85% standing climber. I had alot of success, but as I’ve gotten older it was just too inefficient. I have transformed into a 90% seated climber now, and I'll never go back. Standing leaves alot of dead-spots in my pedal rotation and I found way too much of my power was being wasted when the pedal was at the bottom of the arc. While seated, I can apply more even force and the watts go up up up. Great video!!
So from about that same era, did you choose to ignore Lance Armstrong's sitting technique? I take it that Lance is now your hero - it's always good to learn, isn't it? :-)
Hank's dad is awesome! Love the thinking behind vineyards and restaurants in France but then still coming out with you in the rain for this experiment. You're a great team, it seems!
It depends on the climb and the total power. Standing allows greater power output but for short periods, its explosive. If the climb is steep you will need the absolute power to get up it, even if its less efficient. Mix it up - in the saddle for sustained efforts. Out of the saddle for short steep bits.
Sometimes standing results in a dead spot when your crank is at vertical position if the climb is steep enough to kill the momentum generated by the pedal stroke. In that case i just sit down and start spinning. I only stand if i get tired of sitting or if the grade is just enough to let me carry most of the momentum of one pedal stroke to the next. If i get tired of standing, then i sit again.
Your Dad is classic! As far as the experiment goes, I think most cyclists would agree with you because we are inherently more comfortable pedaling seated. The muscles involved have thousands and thousand of miles of training in that position. If you climb out of the saddle a lot (which long, very steep climbs forced me to do in 2015) you'll soon discover you get remarkably efficient doing that (after training those muscles). I set most of my climbing PR's that summer precisely because I could ride out of the saddle for far longer than ever before (not exclusively, but as long as I wanted before returning to the saddle). Fun stuff. Chapeau!
Way back in the day, there were no tutorials for us on any of this, it was all feel, really, at least for us in or from the States. I grew up on a 20-inch bike--the all-time best 20, a Schwinn Sting-Ray--but when I was 15 and we moved to Frankfurt, West Germany in October '74, I got a Rixie road bike and started commuting to school on it and I loved drafting Benzes and chasing mopeds. And I had an after-school job at the Frankfurt Commissary and bought the one motorcycle we dependents of military and civilian personnel were allowed to ride at that age, a 50cc Honda Dax and we'd sometimes ride four at a time like a little biker gang. And that was my life for years afterwards in Frankfurt and back in the States--road bicycles, BMX bicycles, and motorcycles. And always in pursuit of speed and kicks. And so for me, alternating between standing and sitting just came naturally on a road bike--I always stood at speed on a BMX bike and on a road bike, I would naturally stand when the moment or climb called for it, not that there was a manual or anything for exactly when. And same for off-road motorcycling, always a mix of standing and sitting--WFO. How fast, tho, not really sure. But I am getting older and like the motocross guys say, the older I get the faster I was. And weren't we all :)
Such good memories watching this. I've been riding this climb for the past 25 years, as my dad lives at the top and mum on the other side of Nailsworth. First did it aged 9 on an incredibly heavy BMX (and probably faster than I do now)
I mix between the two depending on how big the climb is. Really small hills I'll try to smash it all standing. Longer climbs I'll tend to do seated. Really long climbs I'll keep swapping between the two in order to mix it up and use slightly different parts of my legs to keep feeling fresher.
Phil Henderson that was a good tip I picked up somewhere too. Brief use of different muscle groups allows some lactate washout, so even if not ‘needed’ I stand for short periods on long climbs. You just need to make smart gear changes to make it all work on the way up and on the way down
I'm in and out of the saddle on climbs, but that's mostly due to riding an old school 7-speed bike with downtube shifters. Not much finessing gears, and it's awkward to shift mid-climb. That's why many old school riders got out of the saddle to maintain momentum. Greg LeMond did it too. And with old school closely spaced 5-speed freewheels it was almost impossible to stay seated throughout a climb. You'd grind away at 50-60 rpm until the legs were dead, then stand for awhile to get the momentum back. Pantani's method works well if you're comfortable with the balance of being in the drops while out of the saddle. More aero, good technique for short steep sprint climbs.
I like your explanation , I grew up on 80's road bikes ! Had to get out of the saddle ! Can't believe on modern carbon fibre road bike the range of gears and how EASY it is to cycle up hills !
@@maxs6775 Yup, switching my old 1993 Trek 5900 from downtube shifters to brifters made it possible to shift while standing -- just gotta hesitate on the pedals a split second during the shift to make it smooth. Great for sprinting to close a gap or to avoid losing the draft on a sprint or climb. And having any extra gears makes for finer increments, easier to stay in the groove without expending energy on too many efforts out of the saddle. But I keep my 1980s steel road bike in original configuration with downtube shifters, mostly for nostalgia. I still ride it pretty much every week.
@@theparalexview785 # riders don't know how spoilt they are with modern bikes ! I was using triban 500 £300 bike weighing about 23 lbs equivalent to a really good road bike in the 80's and managed 29 kmh average over 30 km with a bit of a tail wind ! Upgraded to a scott addict and managed 33 kmh over the same route !
Was never great, but first bike was a 53/42 crank with 11-28 cassette with downtube shifters. I just couldn't produce enough power seated on a climb. Now, 30 years older and a 50/34 crank with 11-34 cassette and I'm seated for anything except a quick short climb.
It's about switching up muscle groups. Neither position is necessarily better, but you switch back and forth between muscles which are less fatigued and get the best of both
Learning to get out of the saddle more on short punchy climbs, but I only really get out of the saddle when it gets steep as my 39/26 lowest gear is a bit hard for me when seated. Still learning the best way for me to ride efficiently and my continued fitness gains make the choices less certain as I seem to be getting PR’s now when I’m not trying so hard! Result!
Hank is great entertainment. Hank + Hank's dad is twice the value for money! It's great that Hank's Dad is included in these exploits; always good for a bit of tonsorial deprecation too!
You're my fav new (well new in the last wee while) GCN personality. Still love the guys I've been watching like forever, but you fit well. This was cool. I stand up a lot and I've always thought it to be slower. Good to know my years of riding have proven that. I do like how it gives me ol' ass and back a rest though. Thanks, GCN.
Rode this climb at the weekend, the weather was much better and you get a lovely view back over Nailsworth before being attacked by the cows at the top.
Hank's dad is a delight. Pro athlete's dad who is still a bit befuddled about his son's career choice, but who is proud of him. I figured out from riding the stationary bike that seated was more efficient - lower heart rate for the same power. I was surprised, but the data didn't lie. Being more aero while sitting only makes it better.
You should stand on the steepest part and stay seated on the easy part of the hill. Especially at a high effort on a hill standing makes sense. I did not make any science, but on steep, I find standing more efficient.
It’s probably not any more efficient in terms of speed for the given effort, but the difference that you’re probably noticing is the ability to output power. When you’re standing, you increase the torque to the pedals by lengthening the lever arm and you also increase the maximum force by putting in the weight of your body. Probably the tiredness from sitting down on the steep sections comes from your muscles wearing out after being unable to put down sufficient power from that position
That's often what I do when riding. I start most climbs by staying seated and pedaling faster; if the hill gets steeper, I stand on the pedals, and then sit back down when things level out.
Hank is the best!! I find myself alternating every few minutes or so in and out of the saddle on climbs. But I agree powering up a short climb feels easier standing up
I love Hank's humor, and this is a very timely video. I've been trying to push a little harder, attacking the "hills" we have here in Florida (really, there are some!) by getting out of the saddle. My experience is pretty similar to Hank's: it feels a little awkward and is hard to sustain on longer hills (more like 300 meters, though - no 1km climbs anywhere around here). My lower back has also been complaining more than normal. Given the results of this video, I'm going to rethink my approach and only get out of the saddle for short bursts of power on small, steep hills.
The results are possibly down to less traction on the rear wheel as your weight is further forward when you stand up to peddle. That explains why despite the similar power readings resulted in vastly different times
The "W" in Nailsworth... nice one. Tough on the bends. There's a couple of climbs near Dursley that are monsters. Both coming up from Waterley Bottom, one called the "Devil's Elbow" going up to Whiteway and the other going up to Breakheart Quarry. Both have 20% sections, perhaps steeper on the Devil's Elbow.
Standing always raises my HR 5 beats at the same wattage. Same thing happened to you. Standing makes you use more effort to support your body weight and it’s less aerodynamic too. Seated and spin for long drags. Standing for hard short and steep hills.
alberto contador oye. I learned from his standing technique(watch his hips) how to rest my thighs whilst climbing using hip movement. it's amazing recovery for muscles used in seated.
Right on Senior Hank!! You need a sombrero!! :P I have noticed no difference between the sitting and standing. Except you can feel in your legs a little power.
I dont have any data to back what I usually do, but: I mostly climb standing whilst on a heavier gear AND when I´m very tired I do my climbing seated with a light gear. I´ll do some tests before assuming I´ve been doing it wrong... Thank you GCN for this food for thought!
If your doing an iconic top 100 climb here in the UK or any steep hill for that matter; the ability to climb out of the saddle is an essential, to borrow hank's phrase, weapon in your armoury. Try sitting down on steep sections of Hard Knott, Mow Cop, Winnat's Pass, Strines/Edwen Baj - your not gonna get up it!
Hi Hank, I'd rather get out of the saddle. The reason for this is that I live in Flanders and the longest climb I have already done is the Oude Kwaremont, which is 2200 meters long. That is an exception as the longest mountain in my city is 618, which is a long time. The rest of the 'climbs' are bridges over a river or motorway. During the Flemish climbs you just have to push for half a minute to two minutes and then it is done. You will only find cobblestone slopes in the round of Flanders in the region of the round and I live to the north of it, so a bit more like in the Netherlands. Cyriel
It depends. On short, steep climbs, out of the saddle seems expedient. On longer climbs, though, seated seems much more sustainable to me. That said, on very long climbs, it's always a good idea to get out of the saddle for short stretches, just to avoid injury and air things out.
I would like to see the second part done at a higher power, 350W for example, to see the efficiency (speed and heart rate) there as well. Thanks for the experiment, Hank.
I really suck at sitting on hills, so I've been forcing myself to stay seated for almost my entire ride recently, continously in order to improve, and it's definitely helped with me standing and the power output from the strength being built
My personal opinion is that it depends on the cyclist. I like standing up, but only on short climbs, but in long climbs I can get more benefit from the full circle when pedaling. Also, I believe that some cyclists have some muscles more developed than others. What I mean is that a climber uses different muscles than non-climbers. The reason I say this is because when it comes to going fast on flat roads, I usually stay behind, but when it comes to climbing, I'm not the first, but I do a lot better than some that are better than me on the flats. And keep in mind, it's only my opinion from personal experience. Thanks for the video! -John.
I think getting off the saddle is efficient when the road kicks up for a brief interval - perhaps up to 1/4 km. The aero losses for a short distance don't add up to much, and I often avoid making a downshift and subsequent upshift just to deal with a short section that is steeper than the nominal gradient. The fact that I'm riding with a 7-speed 12-28 cassette means that the increments between cogs are rather coarse, rendering a noticeable change in cadence with each shift...so sometimes it's better not to shift. I also like the different use of muscle groups and posture change that a bit of time off the saddle provides, but after a minute or two, I'm ready to drop back down.
Of course being seated is faster for the same amount of power, its way more Aero. However standing up allows you (in most cases) to produce more power, which will usually make it faster. In the end however it comes down to what position your body is use to work in. If you usually climb out of the saddle that will be more comfortable and faster and vice versa.. It also comes down to gradient, even Chris froome has to stand up to down more power to get up a steep section sometimes. This video doesn't really say anything than the obvious in my opinion
@@Kefford666 this video is comparing it to the roughly the same amounts of power. My point is you can produce much more power standing. Not that its faster for the same effort
As an older rider (63) with limited FTP (155 - 160) I'm very often at, or above that power climbing seated. If I stand, the power goes way up and my heart rate soon goes over my sustainable max (around 170). Staying seated is definitely my preference.
Thank you. When I was young, I did pedal standing up on occasion... but now, it is very rare. And unconmfortable and less efficient. On a r&m delite, sitting is better.
Another consideration with seated vs standing, is which muscles are doing most of the work. One time on a hilly century ride, the only way I could avoid my hamstrings cramping was to climb standing up, the whole way, so it was a long day out of the saddle!
I stand up on the small hills, I mix it up on the big hills, I stand up going down hills and I frequently stand up on the flats. I went from a country biker to an urban biker and now deal with lots of stops, slow downs and hard turns. My bike times improved significantly when I started to get my butt out of the seat and attack the course. Time in the saddle has a lot more to do with performance than equipment and riding technique.
Science.. MOO-stash.. Hank.. yeah way buddy! Get out of the saddle on punchy climbs then mix it up on longer ones .. way faster if you can sustain it.. nice one mate.. 👍🏻🚴✊🏻👊🏻
Use to stand, then practiced seating lots and then was unable to sustain any standing. Now re practicing both, standing for short punchy climbs and seating for the long gradual climbs.
Need to see more of Hank Snr! And why not the other GCN dads? :D My view of it is that standing puts much increased strain on the drivetrain. i.e. your weight in force vs what you can push with your thighs and calves in a seated position. So the more you stand, the more strain you're putting on your chain, cassette etc. and the quicker they will wear out.
I find the advantage I have when standing is being able to put more power comfortably through the pedals. Normalizing the power negates the advantages from standing.
It seems logical to me that, when doing the same amount of watts, you are slower when being less aero (standing), as being mentioned by the wise dad. Most people can produce more watts when standing though. To me the more interesting question would be: at what speed is this advantage of producing more watts nullified by the disadvantage of more drag. AND would this be different if someone trained cycling standing all the time for a month? I do realise that this would be dependent on many factors and different for each rider, but nonetheless it would be interesting to get some examples... Basically, I want Hank to suffer again;)
@@fubar12345 Yes, but gravity doesn't change much when comparing standing vs seated, no? So the difference in Hank's climbing times must come from a change in drag, in my opinion. And I'd like to think that the difference in Hank's times is significant...
Gravity adds in helping make more power when standing. There is gravitational potential energy being converted to kinetic energy in addition to the muscle energy the body produces. When we stand in the pedals we shift our mass from side to side to “push” down. Since Force=Mass x Acceleration, we are applying a greater force than muscles alone. I am not the best with physics, but somehow this turns into more energy.
"at what speed is this advantage of producing more watts nullified by the disadvantage of more drag" The idea of significant drag caused by speed on an uphill is ridiculous. Nobody climbs remotely fast enough to lose more than a few watts to drag, and beyond that I doubt that an aero position would really do much. If you do some research instead of listening to GCN and "aero trainers" you will see that a lot of the aero gains claims are just marketing drivel. For example, wind tunnels use a constant and direct wind source to represent moving through air at speed. In reality, the air is turbulent and does not even closely resemble the conditions of a wind tunnel. Also, every bro science equation used by these guys takes the coefficient of drag to be a constant value that does not change which is basically like lying. You will experience a much larger coefficient of drag at higher speeds and that is the reason that terminal velocities exist. You will not just keep accelerating at a constant pace regardless of speed through the air. Another horrible mistake is removing lateral motion and steering adjustments from the equation so that the windtunnel is basically optimizing performance as if you use a rolling smart trainer. TLDR: Even the minute gains attained by using "aero" frames, equipment, and posture are subject to scrutiny. The GCN tests and the windtunnel are both unreliable.
"Sitting" is only to rest yur legs for the next sprint attack 🤗 "Standing at low cadence": This is high torque mode, bike swings hard to left and right, should use yur cleats now (u can pull up efficiently), it is not sustainable for long. Best for hills when u r stuck on bike that is geared improperly for the hill u r attacking 😬. "Standing at higher cadence": This is "dancing on the pedals". Bike swings slightly to left and right. Point toes down. This mode can be sustained for longer periods of time. ALWAYS ALWAYS:. "cut the top off every hill" by standing over its crest. Its a free ride cause the oxygen debt doesnt hit until u r on downside and can sit, coast & breathe and smile 😁 . In time "cutting the top off every hill" becomes sprinting the entire hill. Its as if there r no hills anymore on yur local rides 😉. Ken.. 70 year old in the Hudson River highlands.
I think it was great to have your dad help you on this. Was he a sport rider when he was younger? If so can we hear from him about growing older and moving to less sport oriented bikes, lower gears, maybe ebikes. How he copes or if he experiences depression about the change forced by age? I am turning 50 thus year. I had an injury thus year that has put my 20mph average pace days behind me. I'm a 11 to 13 mph rider now with a giant low gear cassette.
I have a long contempt full 13 mile climb which I ascend seated....full grind, I also have an 11 percent grade for one mile that I ascend standing. I find high exertion climbs more manageable out of the saddle, letting my weight and gravity overcome some of the strain.
Hanks Dad mentioned aerodynamics, but would offer the idea of energy expenditure. When standing, Hank is spending more energy to be on his legs and with each stroke he's lifting his body weight up on the other leg. Pushing his weight upwards against gravity. When seating, his weight is resting on his seat. His legs now just have to move the cranks to propel himself forward instead of up. Nice job for Hanks Dad.
Lockdown has got me riding 10-20 miles 2-3x a week, nearly as much as 30+ years ago before I started driving. Back then I was constantly out of the saddle, but now I resist the urge. Glad to know it's paying off, but keeping my drivetrain tuned is clutch. A hanging chain on a missed downshift is torture.
The whole purpose of standing on the pedals is that you allow yourself to alternate muscle groups to help yourself up the climb. By forcing yourself limited to sitting or standing alone is not helping yourself up the climb. If your goal is to get up the hill faster, don't limit yourself to sitting or standing, mix it up; your body will tell you when to switch between the two and ultimately get up the hill faster.
There’s always been seated grinders (Ullrich, wiggins) seated spinners (Armstrong,Froome) mixed seated and standing riders and standing riders and standing riders (Pantani, contador) it depends on your muscle type and which muscles you’ve adapted during cycling career. Different strokes for different folks. You have to find what works for you.
I prefer mix, when gradient eases it is efficient to sit on the saddle and spin to recover, I only get out of the saddle when on a steep climb especially when you have a close ratio cassette.
Sorry Hank, very interesting data and findings, great video, kudos for doing it in the rain, BUT you have been overshadowed by your Dad's cameo appearance! More of your dad! He is a LEGEND!
As for the science, since the power is the same, or even higher standing than seated, it should be the aerodynamics that causes the difference. The 20 seconds difference should be the added aero drag when stand. Maybe next time, try climb at a more aero standing position, like the aero sprint position, for a shorter climb to eliminate the other effects. This one is GCN does science for sure, the final results looks consistent, inspiring video!
What do you prefer? Climbing seated or standing? Let us know in the comments 👇
Out of the Saddle for me, it performs other Functions such as Stretching, Exercising other Muscle Groups and i find it Easier to be Honest.
I'm heavy...so there's no way I'm standing for a hill that long..maybe a short bump/rise in the road that lasts 5 seconds if I'm feeling extra energetic..maybe.
Standing, stretches and helps my legs get up the climb.
I prefer seated ,with a higher cadence, i can endure more of the climb than standing, as my back starts to hurt. Have to commend you doing that climb in that weather with the traffic on your backside!
Definitely standing. I can’t produce enough watts seated
A dad wouldn’t be a dad if he couldn’t embarrass his kid publicly when it really counts.
I think you missed something.. I find that getting out of the saddle isn't a preferred method of climbing, and I can tell it's less efficient, but it's a bit of a reset. Ideally, I'm in the saddle and spinning at say 82 rpm.. But after an extended period, that sort of repetition really feels like it juices my legs up with lactic acid and upshifting a gear or two and getting out of the saddle and engaging different muscles at a different tempo allows me to "reset" and return to the more efficient seated position rejuvenated and more comfortable. (Also its a nice break on the rear end)
This is 100% how I feel.
I'm with you on this too. Even if standing for just 5 or 10 seconds, it breaks up the monotony and gives those muscle groups a break for quick recovery. Plus I believe in that standing and using your body weight for more wattage gives a bit of a power boost while recovering at the same time.
Agree, also with the replies. I would also add that the slope is not constant. When you reach a steeper section and need more torque, you can also get out of the saddle to maintain the pace without shifting.
Thanks Hanks dad. New rising GCN co host.
Along with brother-in-law Nigel!
More of your Dad please, he’s a great addition
my favorite GCN presenter
Dilf
More Hank’s dad, please! He’s the best. Would legit love a video series teaching Hank’s dad about beginner cycling, *including* how to stand while climbing (well, assuming he’s up for that 😂).
Your reaction is what this video was trying to achieve I suspect. Apart from Hank's dad, the content is a bit too lightweight to be taken seriously. Nevertheless standing vs. sitting uphill is still a good question.
Dilf
Pantani was my absolute hero and as such, I was an 85% standing climber. I had alot of success, but as I’ve gotten older it was just too inefficient. I have transformed into a 90% seated climber now, and I'll never go back. Standing leaves alot of dead-spots in my pedal rotation and I found way too much of my power was being wasted when the pedal was at the bottom of the arc. While seated, I can apply more even force and the watts go up up up. Great video!!
Denali 96 Rotor Q-Rings ;)
So from about that same era, did you choose to ignore Lance Armstrong's sitting technique? I take it that Lance is now your hero - it's always good to learn, isn't it? :-)
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 keep spinning like a girl pops! Sucks to get old hahahahaha
@@workingguy-OU812 Yes, Lance is unavoidable. He was excellent in sitting and in out of the saddle. "Lance dance"
This only works if the grade is not so steep. Once it gets past 9% you’re forced to stand up.
Hank's dad is awesome! Love the thinking behind vineyards and restaurants in France but then still coming out with you in the rain for this experiment. You're a great team, it seems!
Gotta love Hank’s Dad, “ You call that a mustache?”
It depends on the climb and the total power.
Standing allows greater power output but for short periods, its explosive. If the climb is steep you will need the absolute power to get up it, even if its less efficient.
Mix it up - in the saddle for sustained efforts. Out of the saddle for short steep bits.
Spot on
That's how I do it too. Rather than down shifting to make it up a steeper section, I'll get out of the saddle so I can keep the same speed.
Sometimes standing results in a dead spot when your crank is at vertical position if the climb is steep enough to kill the momentum generated by the pedal stroke. In that case i just sit down and start spinning. I only stand if i get tired of sitting or if the grade is just enough to let me carry most of the momentum of one pedal stroke to the next. If i get tired of standing, then i sit again.
Don't you guys find that if the hill is steep enough you have to stand to keep your balance and prevent the front wheel from lifting off the ground?
Your Dad is classic! As far as the experiment goes, I think most cyclists would agree with you because we are inherently more comfortable pedaling seated. The muscles involved have thousands and thousand of miles of training in that position. If you climb out of the saddle a lot (which long, very steep climbs forced me to do in 2015) you'll soon discover you get remarkably efficient doing that (after training those muscles). I set most of my climbing PR's that summer precisely because I could ride out of the saddle for far longer than ever before (not exclusively, but as long as I wanted before returning to the saddle). Fun stuff. Chapeau!
Nigel and Hank's Dad have been great comedic relief during lockdown. Would love to see them both more often!
That fly-by Hank did at 6:51 in the pouring rain on a hairpin was so scary but amazing!
love from the Philippines 🇵🇭🚴♂ #GCNPhilippines
Agreed, I did that on my bike but wasn’t able to finish the turn without my back tire slipping and giving me a terrible road burn
He's got good tires ...
Way back in the day, there were no tutorials for us on any of this, it was all feel, really, at least for us in or from the States. I grew up on a 20-inch bike--the all-time best 20, a Schwinn Sting-Ray--but when I was 15 and we moved to Frankfurt, West Germany in October '74, I got a Rixie road bike and started commuting to school on it and I loved drafting Benzes and chasing mopeds. And I had an after-school job at the Frankfurt Commissary and bought the one motorcycle we dependents of military and civilian personnel were allowed to ride at that age, a 50cc Honda Dax and we'd sometimes ride four at a time like a little biker gang. And that was my life for years afterwards in Frankfurt and back in the States--road bicycles, BMX bicycles, and motorcycles. And always in pursuit of speed and kicks. And so for me, alternating between standing and sitting just came naturally on a road bike--I always stood at speed on a BMX bike and on a road bike, I would naturally stand when the moment or climb called for it, not that there was a manual or anything for exactly when. And same for off-road motorcycling, always a mix of standing and sitting--WFO. How fast, tho, not really sure. But I am getting older and like the motocross guys say, the older I get the faster I was. And weren't we all :)
Such good memories watching this. I've been riding this climb for the past 25 years, as my dad lives at the top and mum on the other side of Nailsworth. First did it aged 9 on an incredibly heavy BMX (and probably faster than I do now)
I mix between the two depending on how big the climb is. Really small hills I'll try to smash it all standing. Longer climbs I'll tend to do seated. Really long climbs I'll keep swapping between the two in order to mix it up and use slightly different parts of my legs to keep feeling fresher.
Phil Henderson that was a good tip I picked up somewhere too. Brief use of different muscle groups allows some lactate washout, so even if not ‘needed’ I stand for short periods on long climbs. You just need to make smart gear changes to make it all work on the way up and on the way down
I'm in and out of the saddle on climbs, but that's mostly due to riding an old school 7-speed bike with downtube shifters. Not much finessing gears, and it's awkward to shift mid-climb.
That's why many old school riders got out of the saddle to maintain momentum. Greg LeMond did it too. And with old school closely spaced 5-speed freewheels it was almost impossible to stay seated throughout a climb. You'd grind away at 50-60 rpm until the legs were dead, then stand for awhile to get the momentum back.
Pantani's method works well if you're comfortable with the balance of being in the drops while out of the saddle. More aero, good technique for short steep sprint climbs.
I like your explanation , I grew up on 80's road bikes ! Had to get out of the saddle ! Can't believe on modern carbon fibre road bike the range of gears and how EASY it is to cycle up hills !
@@maxs6775 Yup, switching my old 1993 Trek 5900 from downtube shifters to brifters made it possible to shift while standing -- just gotta hesitate on the pedals a split second during the shift to make it smooth. Great for sprinting to close a gap or to avoid losing the draft on a sprint or climb.
And having any extra gears makes for finer increments, easier to stay in the groove without expending energy on too many efforts out of the saddle.
But I keep my 1980s steel road bike in original configuration with downtube shifters, mostly for nostalgia. I still ride it pretty much every week.
@@theparalexview785 # riders don't know how spoilt they are with modern bikes !
I was using triban 500 £300 bike weighing about 23 lbs equivalent to a really good road bike in the 80's and managed 29 kmh average over 30 km with a bit of a tail wind ! Upgraded to a scott addict and managed 33 kmh over the same route !
Was never great, but first bike was a 53/42 crank with 11-28 cassette with downtube shifters. I just couldn't produce enough power seated on a climb. Now, 30 years older and a 50/34 crank with 11-34 cassette and I'm seated for anything except a quick short climb.
I always get out of the saddle at short climbs, because I am so bad at shifting gears 😅🤔 and then I don’t have to
Same
How can you be bad at pushing a lever
@@guywelch656 that's us poor people's problem
Me too 🤣
@@guywelch656 old bike with downtube shifters for me
Hank, your videos with your dad are great! Hearing you laugh and have fun with your father really bring me joy!
“We’ve grown out of that” XO XO
It's about switching up muscle groups. Neither position is necessarily better, but you switch back and forth between muscles which are less fatigued and get the best of both
Mixing both positions is what a lot of people seem to do!
Learning to get out of the saddle more on short punchy climbs, but I only really get out of the saddle when it gets steep as my 39/26 lowest gear is a bit hard for me when seated. Still learning the best way for me to ride efficiently and my continued fitness gains make the choices less certain as I seem to be getting PR’s now when I’m not trying so hard! Result!
Hank is great entertainment. Hank + Hank's dad is twice the value for money! It's great that Hank's Dad is included in these exploits; always good for a bit of tonsorial deprecation too!
You're my fav new (well new in the last wee while) GCN personality. Still love the guys I've been watching like forever, but you fit well. This was cool. I stand up a lot and I've always thought it to be slower. Good to know my years of riding have proven that. I do like how it gives me ol' ass and back a rest though. Thanks, GCN.
Hanks dads a legend, loved the electric bike video previously. Great video
More videos with Hank's Dad!
Rode this climb at the weekend, the weather was much better and you get a lovely view back over Nailsworth before being attacked by the cows at the top.
And he’s back...loved the episode with Hank’s dad. Nice to see him again!!
I'm enjoying the new storyline of Si going mad in the woods. It's both pleasant and relaxing.
Hank’s father seems like a really great sport. He’s great on camera too!
Hank's dad is a delight. Pro athlete's dad who is still a bit befuddled about his son's career choice, but who is proud of him.
I figured out from riding the stationary bike that seated was more efficient - lower heart rate for the same power. I was surprised, but the data didn't lie. Being more aero while sitting only makes it better.
You should stand on the steepest part and stay seated on the easy part of the hill. Especially at a high effort on a hill standing makes sense. I did not make any science, but on steep, I find standing more efficient.
It’s probably not any more efficient in terms of speed for the given effort, but the difference that you’re probably noticing is the ability to output power. When you’re standing, you increase the torque to the pedals by lengthening the lever arm and you also increase the maximum force by putting in the weight of your body. Probably the tiredness from sitting down on the steep sections comes from your muscles wearing out after being unable to put down sufficient power from that position
That's often what I do when riding. I start most climbs by staying seated and pedaling faster; if the hill gets steeper, I stand on the pedals, and then sit back down when things level out.
Rain+Hank again. Every time I have to go out in bad weather I think: "Hank would go. This is your chance to be as cool as he is"
Nice Roads! BTW, the drivers are so nice moving those cars in slo-mo over there. Cheers!
They can't overtake because there's another vehicle with the camera.
Hank is the best!! I find myself alternating every few minutes or so in and out of the saddle on climbs. But I agree powering up a short climb feels easier standing up
Well done Hank for acknowledging the lorry driver👍You've really grown on me Hank. Keep up the great work!
Pantani regularly used up to 180mm crank length arms and he was only 5’8” .
Crank length is a preference.
Legend !
Hank's dad is really cool and supportive of his son by helping him recording the video even though it's raining.
I love Hank's humor, and this is a very timely video. I've been trying to push a little harder, attacking the "hills" we have here in Florida (really, there are some!) by getting out of the saddle. My experience is pretty similar to Hank's: it feels a little awkward and is hard to sustain on longer hills (more like 300 meters, though - no 1km climbs anywhere around here). My lower back has also been complaining more than normal. Given the results of this video, I'm going to rethink my approach and only get out of the saddle for short bursts of power on small, steep hills.
That Si laugh really caught me😂 1:29
The results are possibly down to less traction on the rear wheel as your weight is further forward when you stand up to peddle.
That explains why despite the similar power readings resulted in vastly different times
The "W" in Nailsworth... nice one. Tough on the bends. There's a couple of climbs near Dursley that are monsters. Both coming up from Waterley Bottom, one called the "Devil's Elbow" going up to Whiteway and the other going up to Breakheart Quarry. Both have 20% sections, perhaps steeper on the Devil's Elbow.
Please more of Hank's dad he's the coolest!
Love to see your dad again. He is a really good sport.
6:50 I definitely thought you were going to crash there, Hank. Full send-mode on wet descents is a dangerous game 😂
His extensive experience of crashing means he knows where the limits are.
new comedic duo! hank+dad = great video.
Standing always raises my HR 5 beats at the same wattage. Same thing happened to you. Standing makes you use more effort to support your body weight and it’s less aerodynamic too. Seated and spin for long drags. Standing for hard short and steep hills.
Lmaooooooo.....if you were stronger standing will get you faster on a long clinb.....maybe one day you'll get there.....biggie smalls is for men
Hank does science! It has everything! Hank! Hanks Dad! (The dynamic between the two is class) Rippin on Ollie's hair and Si's disappearance! 💪💪
alberto contador oye. I learned from his standing technique(watch his hips) how to rest my thighs whilst climbing using hip movement. it's amazing recovery for muscles used in seated.
Right on Senior Hank!! You need a sombrero!! :P I have noticed no difference between the sitting and standing. Except you can feel in your legs a little power.
Very useful experiment well done Hank and great sense of humor too. Dad is super chill 🚴
I dont have any data to back what I usually do, but:
I mostly climb standing whilst on a heavier gear AND when I´m very tired I do my climbing seated with a light gear. I´ll do some tests before assuming I´ve been doing it wrong...
Thank you GCN for this food for thought!
That's excellent what I do.
I live right by Nailsworth. Never even been close to 3 minutes on the W. Good work Hank.
I haven't gotten comfortable out of the saddle yet, so it's good to see I'm not hurting myself so much firmly planted and spinning 😁
I knew the thumbnail picture of Dan would turn out to be clickbait.
"I don't have any glasses"
Next shot: has glasses, but no labcoat.
Never has a man jumped off his bike and started recording a video quicker than Hank at the start of this video.
If your doing an iconic top 100 climb here in the UK or any steep hill for that matter; the ability to climb out of the saddle is an essential, to borrow hank's phrase, weapon in your armoury. Try sitting down on steep sections of Hard Knott, Mow Cop, Winnat's Pass, Strines/Edwen Baj - your not gonna get up it!
Love that your dad is in the videos. Feel bad for that truck behind you 🤣
Hi Hank,
I'd rather get out of the saddle. The reason for this is that I live in Flanders and the longest climb I have already done is the Oude Kwaremont, which is 2200 meters long. That is an exception as the longest mountain in my city is 618, which is a long time. The rest of the 'climbs' are bridges over a river or motorway. During the Flemish climbs you just have to push for half a minute to two minutes and then it is done. You will only find cobblestone slopes in the round of Flanders in the region of the round and I live to the north of it, so a bit more like in the Netherlands.
Cyriel
It depends. On short, steep climbs, out of the saddle seems expedient. On longer climbs, though, seated seems much more sustainable to me. That said, on very long climbs, it's always a good idea to get out of the saddle for short stretches, just to avoid injury and air things out.
I would like to see the second part done at a higher power, 350W for example, to see the efficiency (speed and heart rate) there as well. Thanks for the experiment, Hank.
I really suck at sitting on hills, so I've been forcing myself to stay seated for almost my entire ride recently, continously in order to improve, and it's definitely helped with me standing and the power output from the strength being built
My personal opinion is that it depends on the cyclist. I like standing up, but only on short climbs, but in long climbs I can get more benefit from the full circle when pedaling. Also, I believe that some cyclists have some muscles more developed than others. What I mean is that a climber uses different muscles than non-climbers. The reason I say this is because when it comes to going fast on flat roads, I usually stay behind, but when it comes to climbing, I'm not the first, but I do a lot better than some that are better than me on the flats. And keep in mind, it's only my opinion from personal experience. Thanks for the video! -John.
There have been scientific studies on this, the conclusion was that the steeper the grade, the more efficient standing becomes.
Duuuuhhhhhh.......but some people like to spin like girls lol
@@marioalban1495 try harder
Mostly seating (90%?), but standing in Hairpin bends and steep sections of longer climbs. That is most efficient due to my experience.
hank's dad as the camera man 👌🏻😂
Glad to see dad in now a regular expert on the show.
Really enjoyed your video Hank! It's getting better every time!!!???
I think getting off the saddle is efficient when the road kicks up for a brief interval - perhaps up to 1/4 km. The aero losses for a short distance don't add up to much, and I often avoid making a downshift and subsequent upshift just to deal with a short section that is steeper than the nominal gradient. The fact that I'm riding with a 7-speed 12-28 cassette means that the increments between cogs are rather coarse, rendering a noticeable change in cadence with each shift...so sometimes it's better not to shift.
I also like the different use of muscle groups and posture change that a bit of time off the saddle provides, but after a minute or two, I'm ready to drop back down.
Of course being seated is faster for the same amount of power, its way more Aero. However standing up allows you (in most cases) to produce more power, which will usually make it faster. In the end however it comes down to what position your body is use to work in. If you usually climb out of the saddle that will be more comfortable and faster and vice versa.. It also comes down to gradient, even Chris froome has to stand up to down more power to get up a steep section sometimes. This video doesn't really say anything than the obvious in my opinion
There have been proper (sorry Hank) scientific studies on this, on very steep sections standing is just as efficient as being seated.
Hanks results showed though that standing and producing more watts didn’t equate to being faster!
@@Kefford666 that was 7 watts on a 5 minute climb.. Not enough to make up for the aerodynamic disadvantage
@@robbandj Exactly...so it is slower overall, contrary to your original post.
@@Kefford666 this video is comparing it to the roughly the same amounts of power. My point is you can produce much more power standing. Not that its faster for the same effort
As an older rider (63) with limited FTP (155 - 160) I'm very often at, or above that power climbing seated. If I stand, the power goes way up and my heart rate soon goes over my sustainable max (around 170). Staying seated is definitely my preference.
Thank you. When I was young, I did pedal standing up on occasion... but now, it is very rare. And unconmfortable and less efficient. On a r&m delite, sitting is better.
Another consideration with seated vs standing, is which muscles are doing most of the work. One time on a hilly century ride, the only way I could avoid my hamstrings cramping was to climb standing up, the whole way, so it was a long day out of the saddle!
I stand up on the small hills, I mix it up on the big hills, I stand up going down hills and I frequently stand up on the flats. I went from a country biker to an urban biker and now deal with lots of stops, slow downs and hard turns. My bike times improved significantly when I started to get my butt out of the seat and attack the course. Time in the saddle has a lot more to do with performance than equipment and riding technique.
Science.. MOO-stash.. Hank.. yeah way buddy! Get out of the saddle on punchy climbs then mix it up on longer ones .. way faster if you can sustain it.. nice one mate.. 👍🏻🚴✊🏻👊🏻
Wait, no honking? Where I ride, I'd be deaf!
Use to stand, then practiced seating lots and then was unable to sustain any standing. Now re practicing both, standing for short punchy climbs and seating for the long gradual climbs.
On a short climb, I usually ride standing to produce more power. On longer climbs, I ride on and off the saddle, so I use different muscle groups.
Need to see more of Hank Snr! And why not the other GCN dads? :D
My view of it is that standing puts much increased strain on the drivetrain. i.e. your weight in force vs what you can push with your thighs and calves in a seated position. So the more you stand, the more strain you're putting on your chain, cassette etc. and the quicker they will wear out.
I find the advantage I have when standing is being able to put more power comfortably through the pedals. Normalizing the power negates the advantages from standing.
It seems logical to me that, when doing the same amount of watts, you are slower when being less aero (standing), as being mentioned by the wise dad. Most people can produce more watts when standing though. To me the more interesting question would be: at what speed is this advantage of producing more watts nullified by the disadvantage of more drag. AND would this be different if someone trained cycling standing all the time for a month? I do realise that this would be dependent on many factors and different for each rider, but nonetheless it would be interesting to get some examples...
Basically, I want Hank to suffer again;)
Need to stand up sometimes , extra power etc , stretch the legs
Drag is not a big issue for hill climbs unless you're an exceptionally fast climber, Gravity is the primary force being acted against.
@@fubar12345 Yes, but gravity doesn't change much when comparing standing vs seated, no? So the difference in Hank's climbing times must come from a change in drag, in my opinion. And I'd like to think that the difference in Hank's times is significant...
Gravity adds in helping make more power when standing. There is gravitational potential energy being converted to kinetic energy in addition to the muscle energy the body produces. When we stand in the pedals we shift our mass from side to side to “push” down. Since Force=Mass x Acceleration, we are applying a greater force than muscles alone. I am not the best with physics, but somehow this turns into more energy.
"at what speed is this advantage of producing more watts nullified by the disadvantage of more drag"
The idea of significant drag caused by speed on an uphill is ridiculous. Nobody climbs remotely fast enough to lose more than a few watts to drag, and beyond that I doubt that an aero position would really do much. If you do some research instead of listening to GCN and "aero trainers" you will see that a lot of the aero gains claims are just marketing drivel. For example, wind tunnels use a constant and direct wind source to represent moving through air at speed. In reality, the air is turbulent and does not even closely resemble the conditions of a wind tunnel. Also, every bro science equation used by these guys takes the coefficient of drag to be a constant value that does not change which is basically like lying. You will experience a much larger coefficient of drag at higher speeds and that is the reason that terminal velocities exist. You will not just keep accelerating at a constant pace regardless of speed through the air. Another horrible mistake is removing lateral motion and steering adjustments from the equation so that the windtunnel is basically optimizing performance as if you use a rolling smart trainer.
TLDR: Even the minute gains attained by using "aero" frames, equipment, and posture are subject to scrutiny. The GCN tests and the windtunnel are both unreliable.
"Sitting" is only to rest yur legs for the next sprint attack 🤗
"Standing at low cadence": This is high torque mode, bike swings hard to left and right, should use yur cleats now (u can pull up efficiently), it is not sustainable for long. Best for hills when u r stuck on bike that is geared improperly for the hill u r attacking 😬.
"Standing at higher cadence": This is "dancing on the pedals". Bike swings slightly to left and right. Point toes down. This mode can be sustained for longer periods of time.
ALWAYS ALWAYS:. "cut the top off every hill" by standing over its crest. Its a free ride cause the oxygen debt doesnt hit until u r on downside and can sit, coast & breathe and smile 😁 . In time "cutting the top off every hill" becomes sprinting the entire hill. Its as if there r no hills anymore on yur local rides 😉. Ken.. 70 year old in the Hudson River highlands.
I think it was great to have your dad help you on this. Was he a sport rider when he was younger? If so can we hear from him about growing older and moving to less sport oriented bikes, lower gears, maybe ebikes. How he copes or if he experiences depression about the change forced by age? I am turning 50 thus year. I had an injury thus year that has put my 20mph average pace days behind me. I'm a 11 to 13 mph rider now with a giant low gear cassette.
So right about Ollie’s hair!
Summer in the UK, lovely!!
I have a long contempt full 13 mile climb which I ascend seated....full grind, I also have an 11 percent grade for one mile that I ascend standing.
I find high exertion climbs more manageable out of the saddle, letting my weight and gravity overcome some of the strain.
Love you and Dad making videos! Big deal Hank!!!
Hanks Dad mentioned aerodynamics, but would offer the idea of energy expenditure. When standing, Hank is spending more energy to be on his legs and with each stroke he's lifting his body weight up on the other leg. Pushing his weight upwards against gravity. When seating, his weight is resting on his seat. His legs now just have to move the cranks to propel himself forward instead of up. Nice job for Hanks Dad.
Lockdown has got me riding 10-20 miles 2-3x a week, nearly as much as 30+ years ago before I started driving. Back then I was constantly out of the saddle, but now I resist the urge. Glad to know it's paying off, but keeping my drivetrain tuned is clutch. A hanging chain on a missed downshift is torture.
I usually only stand up on those little moles. If it's an actual long climb I'll mostly seat and pedal at a good cadence
The whole purpose of standing on the pedals is that you allow yourself to alternate muscle groups to help yourself up the climb.
By forcing yourself limited to sitting or standing alone is not helping yourself up the climb.
If your goal is to get up the hill faster, don't limit yourself to sitting or standing, mix it up; your body will tell you when to switch between the two and ultimately get up the hill faster.
There’s always been seated grinders (Ullrich, wiggins) seated spinners (Armstrong,Froome) mixed seated and standing riders and standing riders and standing riders (Pantani, contador) it depends on your muscle type and which muscles you’ve adapted during cycling career. Different strokes for different folks. You have to find what works for you.
this is the best comment on the matter
I’m always out of the saddle on climbs because if I’m not, the tiniest incline hurts my knee. But standing fixes that right up for me.
I prefer mix, when gradient eases it is efficient to sit on the saddle and spin to recover, I only get out of the saddle when on a steep climb especially when you have a close ratio cassette.
Hank + Mustache hmmmmmmmm I dont know.
PS: good to see your dad again in the video :)!
Love that Hank's Dad has a new job.
Sorry Hank, very interesting data and findings, great video, kudos for doing it in the rain, BUT you have been overshadowed by your Dad's cameo appearance! More of your dad! He is a LEGEND!
As for the science, since the power is the same, or even higher standing than seated, it should be the aerodynamics that causes the difference. The 20 seconds difference should be the added aero drag when stand. Maybe next time, try climb at a more aero standing position, like the aero sprint position, for a shorter climb to eliminate the other effects. This one is GCN does science for sure, the final results looks consistent, inspiring video!
Very useful segment. 👌